1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you get in touch with technologies with 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: tex stole from how stuff works dot com. Hi, everyone, 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: welcome to tex Stop. My name is Chris Poulette and 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: I am an editor at how stuff works dot Com. 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: Sitting across from me, as always, is senior writer Jonathan Strickland. 7 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: Hey there, do you not have a quote for us? 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: Not today? Okay? No, I I've been occasionally throwing in 9 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: random quotes from various movies I like, But I didn't 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: think of anything today I could have. I guess I 11 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: could say, uh, you keep using that hurd. I do 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: not think it means what you think it means. So 13 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: there we go. All right, then I'm happy with that. 14 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: Now let's tackle our subject, which is how fuel cells work. 15 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: Fuel cells, the mystery, uh energy problem, savor of the future, 16 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: or we would we would hope anyway. Yeah, fuel cells 17 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: are this, uh well, it's it's kind of like a battery, 18 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: you know. Let's let's go ahead and kind of define 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: what it does. It's an electrochemical energy conversion device. Yes, 20 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:12,759 Speaker 1: actually that's that's sort of what I meant about mystery 21 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: because everybody talks about how cool they are, but nobody 22 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: really knows exactly what they do. But they convert chemicals 23 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 1: into electricity. That's that's like a battery. Yeah, No, it 24 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: is very much like a battery. Others. There are some 25 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: differences which will get into but in general a fuel cell. 26 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: What most people tend to know about fuel cells is 27 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: one they create electricity and to their byproducts are heat 28 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: and water. Yes, that's it tends to be what most 29 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,199 Speaker 1: people know about apart from the people who specifically work 30 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: in the fuel cell industry. Clearly they know a lot 31 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: more than that. Well, of course we always see that 32 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: mainstream media, you know, reporter going out to the back 33 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: of the fuel cell vehicle and putting a cup underneath 34 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: the tailpipe and drinking the water, right, And I think 35 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: that sticks with us. That's why we don't we don't 36 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: know that much more about it, because we go that's 37 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: really cool. Yeah, because because you think about that, you're like, well, 38 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: if we have this energy source that can create electricity 39 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: and the only byproduct really is heat and water, and 40 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: you know, water is not toxic. It's not like water 41 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: is going to be throwing out greenhouse gases into the 42 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: atmosphere or polluting in some other way. Why don't we 43 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: have more of these? And really the answer to that 44 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: question is that the technology is not sophisticated enough and 45 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: reliable enough, and most importantly, really, when you get down 46 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: to it, cheap enough to do on a widespread basis 47 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,399 Speaker 1: to allow us to to switch to a fuel cell economy. 48 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: So let's let's kind of talk about what how a 49 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: fuel cell works, what it does, where it came from. Um. 50 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: First of all, well let's talk about Sir William Grove. Now, 51 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: Sir William Grove, he's the fellow who kind of invented 52 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: fuel cells, if you will, all right, he knew this 53 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: was back in nine by the way, he knew that 54 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: if you if you took some water and you ran 55 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: a trick current through the water, it would produce hydrogen 56 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: and oxygen molecules of water apart. Yeah, it's called electrolysis. 57 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: And actually this this tends to happen with various molecules. 58 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: If you add enough energy to the molecule, it tends 59 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 1: to break the molecular bonds and it will eventually break 60 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: apart into its individual elements. Most molecules will do this. 61 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: If you if you pour in enough energy. That's going 62 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 1: to be another important point later on. So Grove he theorized, well, 63 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: if you if you add electricity to water and you 64 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: get hydrogen and oxygen. Uh, if you if you then 65 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: combined hydrogen and oxygen, you should get water and electricity, 66 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, because you know it should be the same 67 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: coming out as it is going in. Right, So if 68 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: you're yeah, So he's like, well, um, how he rans 69 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: some experiments and he created what he called a gas 70 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: voltaic battery and in this gas will take battery. He 71 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: then combined hydrogen and oxygen and he really is that 72 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: he got water and he got free electrons, which you know, 73 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: if you direct free electrons through a path, that's electricity. 74 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: So it's signed a little sign on the side of 75 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: the said electrons free. Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's a protest 76 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: held off the cell. Fifty years later you get uh, 77 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: Ludwig Mond and Charles Langer and they're they're the ones 78 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: who coined the term fuel cell. Those are the guys 79 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: who actually found a fairly practical way to do this. 80 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: Uh that was easily repeatable, so you could you could 81 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: repeat the experiment improve. Yes, something is happening here, because 82 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: of course we know in science, just because you get 83 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: a result doesn't necessarily mean that you have proven your 84 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: hypothesis correct. You need to have a repeatable experiment that 85 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: can be done by anyone who has the facility to 86 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: do it at any rate um to prove that that 87 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: something really is going on. Yes, So that's where we 88 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: get into the fuel cells and unlike battery, like a 89 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: battery is a self contained mean chemical reaction. Uh, and yeah, 90 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: it's chemical reaction. It can very good. Well, I mean 91 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: nothing's going in, nothing's going out except electrons, right, yeah. Yeah, 92 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: The battery has chemicals inside it that react together. The 93 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: reaction produces electrons, and that is where we get you know, 94 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: our little electric power from a battery. Fuel cells are 95 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: a little different. You can pour fuel into a fuel cell, 96 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: thus the name, and it will convert that fuel into 97 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: the water and the electricity. So as long as you 98 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: have a supply of hydrogen and a supply of oxygen 99 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: going into the fuel cell, and as long as the 100 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: membrane of the fuel cell and the other components remain 101 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: remain viable. We'll get into that in a little bit. Uh, 102 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: it should continue to to produce electricity. It's not gonna 103 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: it's not like it'll die. After all the hydrogen runs out. 104 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 1: If you add more hydrogen and more oxygen, it should 105 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: can to new to work. Right. Okay, so we've covered 106 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 1: the basics there. Uh, let's let's talk. I'm gonna shift 107 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: my notes around. I actually have paper notes today. I 108 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: usually don't do this. Uh. Let's talk about the various 109 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: components within a fuel cell. Okay, we can do that, 110 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: all right. We've got the anode. Yes, Uh, the anode, 111 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: It that's the that's the negative post, not meaning that. 112 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: I know, I was trying to listeners. I apologize. I 113 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: was finish. I mean, we all suffered for that besides Chris, 114 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: um no, no, no, it was good. So that's what's 115 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: conducting the electrons and that that get freed from the hydrogen. 116 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: So the anodes on one end. On the other end 117 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: is the cathode. Yes, that's the positive post. So that's 118 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: where the hydrogen. Uh. This, this is what's conducting the 119 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: electrons back from the external circuit. So I'm sorry. We've 120 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: got we've got the anode. That's where when the electrons 121 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: come out from the reaction, electrons go to the end, 122 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: would go into a circuit. So what electric motor or 123 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: a light bulb or whatever. Right, Um, the electrons continue 124 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: their path once they go through that circuit to the cathode. Uh. 125 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: Then we've got the electrolyte uh in the center. This 126 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: is a usually approach a proton exchange membrane. Thing of 127 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: the membrane is kind of like a force field. Now 128 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: this force field will, Yeah, the force field will allow 129 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: positively charged ions to pass through, but will repel negatively 130 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: charged particles. So electrons have a negative charge. They cannot 131 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: pass through the membrane. If they could pass through the membrane, 132 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: fuel cells would not work. It is the bouncer of 133 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: the fuel cell. Yes, you may not come in, but 134 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: we're not cool enough because you are negative exactly, but 135 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: the close enough. So the so the high hydrogen are 136 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: the hydrogen ions are positively charged because they have given 137 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: up an electron. All right. So now now essentially what 138 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: you have a hydrogen ion is essentially a proton. So 139 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: you've got a proton. Protons are positively charged. You've got 140 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: this puzzledly charged element there. It can pass through the membrane. 141 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: Now why would it pass through the membrane to get 142 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: to the other side. But what's on the other side oxygen, 143 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: and oxygen has a negative charge. That it exactly the 144 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: proton has attracted across the membrane to the negatively charged oxygen. 145 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: If if there were no negative charge, then the proton 146 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: would not necessarily migrate through the membrane. So, uh, when 147 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,599 Speaker 1: it migrates to the membrane, it then combines with the oxygen, 148 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 1: and uh, you get the two hydrogens, the one oxygen 149 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: together and then the electron that had passed through the circuit. 150 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: Remember it passed from the anode through the circuit into 151 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: the cathode. On that end, the two hydrogen atoms the 152 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: oxygen atom have combined into a molecule. The electron joins 153 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: that molecule, and that's when you get water, right, So 154 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: you don't have any free electrons at the end of 155 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: this process. It all recombines on the cathode end, and 156 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: that's where you get the water. There's one other element 157 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: that's important with this, that's the catalyst, and this is catalysts. 158 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: What they do is they help reactions, right, the thing 159 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: that makes it possible to react. Yeah, otherwise you would 160 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: have to pour even more energy in in order for 161 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,959 Speaker 1: this to to react and it wouldn't be viable at all. 162 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: So it's a special material and it it helps this 163 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: reaction of oxygen and hydrogen. And in most fuel cells 164 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: that you that that people talk about tends to be 165 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: made out of platinum nanoparticles. Right. So a nanoparticle, of 166 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: course is insanely tiny, like tinier than the microscopic scopic scale, right, 167 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: but it is on a thin sheet of materials um 168 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,839 Speaker 1: with as much area as exposed as possible to facilitate 169 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: more reaction. Right. So it's almost like you've spray painted 170 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: a sheet with platinum. And because you can imagine, that's 171 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 1: pretty expensive. Platinum is a precious met all, it's pretty rare. 172 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: It's hard to get your hands on it. Even when 173 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 1: you're talking about nanoparticles, which are really tiny. You're talking 174 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: about billions of nanoparticles. Like a nanoparticle is not going 175 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: to do much for you. Um, so yeah, you definitely 176 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: want to maximize that service area in order to allow 177 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: the reactions between hydrogen and oxygen to to happen or 178 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: else your your fuel cell doesn't do anything all right, 179 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: So you're pouring hydrogen in, you you're pumping oxygen in. 180 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: When I say pouring. I'm really mean pumping, because you're 181 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: probably pumping hydrogen gas. You're pumping both into this fuel cell. 182 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: They combine. You get the electrons, you get the water. 183 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 1: So why don't we have lots and lots of fuel 184 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: cells already running all all of our power, all of 185 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: our electronics. You've already hit on it. Why is that? 186 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: What was that? The biggest one being the cost? That 187 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: would be a huge one. Yeah, the platinum, that kind 188 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: of it's simply not it's simply not practical, right, Yeah, 189 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: you get down to it, You're like, well, in a 190 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: in an ideal world, we cost would not be would 191 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: not even be a consideration, right, we would just be 192 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: talking about the fact that this is clean energy that 193 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: we have and uh, and we could run our cars 194 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: or other devices, our homes, even powered plants, we could 195 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: run them on hydrogen and uh and then we we 196 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: not pollute and we'd have a nice clean energy source. 197 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: But it comes down to the fact that cost is 198 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: an element. It's not the only one, of course. The Yeah, 199 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: the whole process of of splitting the water into two pieces. Yeah, 200 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: but you know that's actually is I guess should be 201 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: the source of hydrogen more than anything else. Yeah, source 202 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: of hydrogen is a huge, huge problem. Hydrogen does not 203 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: It's plentiful, but not in its elemental form on Earth. 204 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 1: It's usually combined with something else like oxygen to make water. 205 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: We we it's not like there's a hydrogen mind we 206 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: can go to and mind hydrogen, pure hydrogen and use 207 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: that we when we we can get hydrogen from stuff 208 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: like hydrocarbon fuels or even water, as we pointed out 209 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: by breaking down compounds, right, which takes energy. Right, So 210 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: in order to get this fuel cell fuel, you already 211 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: have to expend energy to create the fuel. So now 212 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: you're now you're looking at a fuel like an energy 213 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: deficit situation. Does it take more energy to create the 214 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: fuel than the energy you will get by using that 215 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: fuel to power a fuel cell? And as long as 216 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: it takes more energy for you to create the fuel 217 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: than it does to actually power whatever it is you're 218 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: going to power, it doesn't make sense. We already have 219 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: a fuel that does this, by the way, gasoline. Gasoline. 220 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 1: Actually it actually takes more energy to create a gallon 221 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: of gas than a gallon of gas can create through 222 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: putting it through a motor or whatever. Yeah, because gasoline 223 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: is a pretty inefficient fuel, it turns out, especially compared 224 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: to a fuel cell, and you have to again look 225 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: at the entire life cycle. You're not just looking at oh, well, 226 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: how much how much energy did it take to ship 227 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: the gasoline from the refinery to the UH to the 228 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: gas station. It's also how much energy did the refinery 229 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: have to expand in order to produce that gasoline? How 230 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: much energy had to be expanded to to get the 231 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: oil out of the ground to eventually become what would 232 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: what would eventually become gasoline. Um, it's really a big 233 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: picture thing, and that's that's the real problem with a 234 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: lot of these energy issues, is that once you start 235 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: looking at the big picture, you begin to realize, oh, 236 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: this is this is a much more difficult problem than 237 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: I originally imagined. Um. Now, there are many different kinds 238 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: of fuel cells. Yeah, I thought I thought we were 239 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: getting ready to hit that because the one that we've 240 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: been talking about, I guess, probably without actually saying its name, 241 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: is the polymer electrolyte membrane fuel cell. Right. Also sometimes 242 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: it's called the polymer exchange membrane fuel cell UM. But 243 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: saying why membrane in the exchange. Okay, I got it. Yep, 244 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: that's it. They're used in cars a lot, right, Yeah, 245 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: that's that's kind of the stuff we're looking at cars. See, now, 246 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: some of these fuel cells work really well at a 247 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: certain temperature range, and outside that temperature range, they don't 248 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: work very well at all. Now, the polymeer exchange has 249 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: a couple of different issues that make it not the 250 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: most ideal method of power generation within a car. And 251 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: I'll one of those is that, um, well, I mean 252 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: it's heat range is okay, because it's it works best 253 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: somewhere around uh a hundred for you, two d seventy 254 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: degrees fahrenheit, So you could you would first have to 255 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: heat your fuel cell up to this temperature for it 256 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: to be able to to work properly. So there there 257 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: is a warm up period. It's not like it's gonna 258 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: work immediately as you get in your car. One of 259 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: the things about the polymer exchange membrane fuel cell is 260 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: that it has to have a hydrated membrane. The membrane 261 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: must remain hydrated, which means essentially wet. All right, So 262 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: if you live in Minnesota, you know, the winners in 263 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: Minnesota get really cold. And when you get really cold 264 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: and you've got water, you know what happens. It freezes. Yeah, 265 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: it doesn't happen much here in Atlanta, but up in 266 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: Minnesota it could. Yes, if the temperature fell far enough 267 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: the water used to hydrate that membrane. And remember the 268 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: membrane is key to this, uh, to this exchange. If 269 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: the water could freeze, that would make the membrane extremely 270 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: brittle and it could break, and then you've got a 271 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: broken fuel cell, right, so that he's problematic. Yeah, that's 272 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: a bit of an issue. And there are other types 273 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: of fuel cells. There's the solid oxide fuel cell. Yeah, 274 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: this is this is one of my favorites. This would 275 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: not work well in the car. No, no, not at all, 276 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: um simply the uh, simply because it requires so much 277 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: more in the way of temperature for it to operate. Yeah, 278 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: it operates best between seven D and a thousand degrees centigrade. Yes, 279 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: that's a that's pretty warm. Yeah, no, it's pretty pretty steamy. 280 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: But but steam, now that you mentioned that, see that 281 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: that generates uh, you know steam as a resulting that 282 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: can be used to create electricity as well. Yeah, you 283 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: can use the steam to generate too, to push turbines, 284 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: or you could even use the steam, well not just 285 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: or and you could use the steam to help heat 286 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: uh the facility. So let's say it's in the dead 287 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: of winter. Uh, the steam coming from this reaction could 288 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: go back into the heating unit to try and keep 289 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: the plant warm, so that you don't have to generate 290 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: you don't have to burn as much energy to keep 291 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: the plant running. Right right now, Uh, they're not as 292 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: efficient or they're not it's it's not cost effective yet. 293 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: The cost effectiveness of the solid oxide fuel cell. Um 294 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: that the target is four dollars per killer? What right 295 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 1: now it's about ten times that? Is that four thousand 296 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: dollars per kill? A what to run one of these things? Um, 297 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: that's a problem. Well. Um. I'd also like to point 298 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: out that the solid oxide fuel cells have been in 299 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: the news recently in a in a pretty big fashion. 300 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, I believe we've talked about 301 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: one on this podcast not too long ago. The bloom box, Oh, 302 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: the bloom box bloom energies. Bloom box fuel cells are 303 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: solid oxide fuel cells, and I don't know that they 304 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: run exactly the same way as the information in our 305 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: article about that on our side, I don't slightly different process. 306 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: They probably do because the ones that we're talking about 307 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: are mainly um. The solid oxide tends to often be 308 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: used to come in the form of coal, so you 309 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: actually have coal running a fuel cell, which you know 310 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: you first sit there and think like, WHOA, that's weird. 311 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: I thought we were going to try to get away 312 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: from fossil fuels. Not necessarily. In some cases, we may 313 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: have to use fossil fuels to create the hydrogen or 314 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: whatever the compound is that we're going to use in 315 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: the fuel cell, because hydrogen is not the only one, 316 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: it's just the most popular one. Um. But we may 317 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: have to use fossil fuels in that process to generate 318 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: the fuel we need to run to to make the 319 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: fuel cells go. UM. There are other types as well. 320 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: There's the alkaline fuel cell. That's the kind that we're 321 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: that they that uh, the Space Race used quite a 322 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 1: bit back in the sixties. UM, not really use that 323 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: much anymore. It's not it's not as it's really expensive. 324 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: It's not as reliable as some of the other technologies, 325 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: as it requires pure hydrogen and oxygen. Yeah, pure hydrogen 326 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: and oxygen is hard to get your hands on or 327 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: at least the pure hydrogen is Um, there are fuel 328 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: cells that can use hydrogen that's not pure, but that 329 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: also tends to take its toll on the membrane. So again, 330 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: the membrane is a is a fairly delicate part of 331 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: a few will cell and uh, if you damage that 332 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: that membrane, then the fuel cell is not gonna work anymore. Also, 333 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: I guess we should also point out that a fuel cell, 334 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 1: when we're talking about a fuel cell, an individual fuel 335 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: cell does not generate that much power. It's when you 336 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 1: have a bunch of fuel cells working together that you 337 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: can generate enough electricity, essentially in an array. Yeah, a 338 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: fuel cell stack is usually what we call it. Uh 339 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: we being those of us in the fuel cell industry say, 340 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: and journalists, um, yeah, So an individual fuel cell is 341 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: like think of it, like we talked about cell processors. 342 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: A cell processor is just one part of a group 343 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: of processors that all work together, same sort of thing. 344 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: Fuel cell is just one little electricity generation device that 345 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: works with several others to create enough electricity to actually 346 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: do something. But you also have the molten carbonate fuel cell, 347 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 1: the phosphoric acid fuel cell, the direct methanol fuel cell. 348 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: These are all very sans um. They all basically do 349 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: the same thing, but they're doing it through different ways, 350 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: and some of them have different operating temperatures, different parameters. 351 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: Some of them are more reliable than others, but they 352 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: require such a high operating temperature that you wouldn't want 353 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: to use in a car. Like you don't want to 354 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: use a solid oxide fuel cell on a car because 355 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: you would die. You would have to have such she 356 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: some sort of protective material to to shield you from 357 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: the heat that your car would weighe so much that 358 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: it wouldn't matter how much of the electricity you're generating, 359 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: because it wouldn't move anywhere. It's gonna say, you'd have 360 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: to use most of the power for your air conditioning, 361 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 1: you know. They either the air conditioning or just getting 362 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: the wheels to have enough torque to actually push that 363 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: incredibly heavy vehicle forward torque. Um. So then we have 364 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: the phosphoric acid fuel cell um and uh you know 365 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: those those are those are a little smaller. Yeah, yeah, 366 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: those aren't. Those aren't as huge, but they have such 367 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: a long went warm up time. Yeah. So again, if 368 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: you try idea, if used a phosphor. I guess that 369 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: Jill cell in your car, you'd have to start warming 370 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: up your car an hour before you were leaving, So 371 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: that's not really sort of impractical. Yeah, and the direct 372 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 1: methanol fuel cell, Uh, again we're talking about it's not 373 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: as efficient. It can um use methanol, but since since 374 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: the energy output isn't as great, it's not really seen 375 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: as a viable feel cell. Yeah, I've seen I've seen 376 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: some methanol fuel cells out and about. In fact, Uh, 377 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: when I went to the c E S in two 378 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, um, I believe it was Toshiba, if 379 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, had a methanol fuel cell powered MP 380 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: three player on display, which was pretty cool. Um, you know, 381 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: it's not it's one of those things where you're like, really, seriously, 382 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: I have to pour methanol in this thing. But yeah, 383 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: I mean it's it was so small, you know, the 384 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 1: size of an MP three player that you know, I 385 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: couldn't imagine empowering you know, I'm building or a car. 386 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: It's much more tiny. But that's what they talked about 387 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: when they talk about the possibility of using fuel cells 388 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: to power say, laptop computers and things like that. Yeah, yeah, 389 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: personal electronic devices, that kind of stuff. It still it 390 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: still seems odd to me that you would, you know, 391 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: flip your laptop over and pourans and meth at all, 392 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: And I guess it would probably be an external supply 393 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: of some sort. My MP three player has a drinking problem. 394 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: I'm gonna talk very briefly about about the efficiency of 395 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: a fuel cell. This is kind of a complicated topic, 396 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: but let's uh, fuel cell efficiency depends on a lot 397 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: of different factors. Let's say that you have a fuel 398 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 1: cell that runs on pure hydrogen, and somehow you have 399 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: a reliable source of pure hydrogen, so you don't you know, 400 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: there's no problem with actually getting fuel for it, so 401 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: eliminating that as an issue, yeah, uh. Assuming that the 402 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: a pure hydrogen fuel cell has the potential to be 403 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: up to eight percent efficient in generating electricity, so you 404 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 1: get you're getting eight of the energy generated by the 405 00:22:55,240 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: reaction to actually become electricity. However, now then you have 406 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: to put it through an electric motor. So we're talking 407 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: about this for for cars. So electric motors are not efficient. 408 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: They don't they don't convert a pc of electricity into 409 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: a mechanical power. You lose some in heat. Yes, So 410 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: let's let's say you've got a really good electric motor, 411 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: and the electric motor is also efficient. You're getting down 412 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: to about six of your of the power that's generated 413 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: by the reactions within the fuel cell to actually do work. 414 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: So you've got sixty four percent efficiency. Now that's amazing 415 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: compared to a gas powered automobile, which has got about 416 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: uh like, like Chris said, gasoline is just not that 417 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:50,959 Speaker 1: efficient at generating power. Then you think about, all right, well, 418 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: what about electric vehicles like you know the Prius. Well, 419 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 1: that's that's a hybrid. That's true, you're if you're talking 420 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: about a pure electric vehicle. I'm sorry, I should have 421 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: said a pure electric vehicle. So it's just running on 422 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 1: an electric battery. Electric batteries on their own can be 423 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,919 Speaker 1: really efficient, like nine percent efficient. When you get to 424 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: the electric electric motor part, it eventually comes down to 425 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: about efficiency. Now here's where you have to go into 426 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: the big picture again. How was that electricity generated that 427 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: that went into charging the battery. In a lot of cases, 428 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: at least here in the United States, we're talking about 429 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: fossil fuels again, Yeah, coal power or something like that. 430 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: So Once you factor into the coal power that was 431 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: needed to generate the electricity that initially charged that battery, 432 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: you start seeing the efficiencies dropped. Now, if we assume 433 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: that the electricity was generated through some sort of renewable source, 434 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: like let's say hydro electric facility, so no fossil fuels 435 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: went into producing this. Even then, when you're looking at 436 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: the efficiencies, it goes to around it's in the mid 437 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: six so six six six percent something like that efficiency. 438 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: So it's just a little bit more efficient than a 439 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: hydrogen car that's running on pure hydrogen. And again, if 440 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: we look at that with the electric battery, we kind 441 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: of had to look at it with the hydrogen as well, 442 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: like where did we get how did we get that 443 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 1: pure hydrogen? Once you factor that, and this is why 444 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: it gets so complicated, you're like, well, in the big picture, 445 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 1: does it make sense to move to hydrogen? So we 446 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 1: first have to answer that question, doesn't make sense to 447 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: move to a hydrogen based uh fleet of automobiles? M 448 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: Will that from an energy standpoint makes sense? Or will 449 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: we just be switching one inefficient method for ultimately another one. 450 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: That's that's one question. There's another one though, that's even bigger. 451 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: How do we build the infrastructure to support hydrogen powered vehicles? Yes, 452 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 1: this is uh, this is one of the problems that 453 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 1: organizations like better Place, which is a car manufacturer or 454 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 1: not car manufacturer. Um, they are a a systems manufacturer 455 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: that's trying to work out a way to make electric 456 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: vehicles possible. And um they basically have been adapting vehicles 457 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,360 Speaker 1: to run on as plug ins. Uh, which is all 458 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 1: well and good, but say what happens if you haven't 459 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: had a chance to get your car charged up? Um, 460 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: you know, and you are running out of electricity. We're 461 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 1: talking about the possibility of stations where you could go 462 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: and swap out your battery for another you know, our 463 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: battery array for another one. And uh, you know that 464 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: would be a convenient thing if that already existed. But 465 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: it's the same thing any kind of alternative fuel, uh 466 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: to what we've got now, whether it's you know, needing 467 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: more hydrogen for your fuel cell powered vehicle or requiring 468 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: more batteries for an electric vehicle. Um, they're just simply 469 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: aren't you know, power stations on every corner like there 470 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: are with gasoline vehicles. You're going to have to either 471 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: strike deals with those companies to do that or start 472 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: your own really expensive, and we're talking billions and billions 473 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 1: of dollars, or as Carl Sagan would have you, billions 474 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: and billions of dollars. You really need to check it 475 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: with the patches in the old vesp. Yeah, it's a 476 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: little too warm for that at any rate. Uh, Yeah, 477 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: it costs. It's gonna cost a lot of money to 478 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 1: build out that infrastructure. Um, everything from the actual facilities 479 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: where they sell the hydrogen, to all the vehicles that 480 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 1: are going to be necessary to transport the hydrogen, to 481 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: the facilities that are there to generate the hydrogen. UM. 482 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: It's it's not a small task. And uh, the Hydrogen 483 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: Fuel Initiative I just founded back in two thousand three, 484 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: when was it lost? It is it's working to try 485 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 1: and find a way of making fuel cell vehicles practical 486 00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: and cost effective. By I think that's in incredibly ambitious, 487 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: especially when you consider that their budget is pretty low. 488 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: In the grand scheme of things. Now, it would be 489 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: great if we could switch to a hydrogen based uh 490 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: transportation system, because then you're looking at you no longer 491 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: dependent upon on oil, and because so much of our 492 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: oil comes from foreign nations that may or may not 493 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: have very friendly relationships with US. Um it means that 494 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: we're no longer pouring money into into governments or into 495 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: countries that we may think ultimately you could use that 496 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: money to do things that are not within our country's 497 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: best interests. That's a good way of putting it. I'm 498 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: trying to like dance lightly around the whole thing. But 499 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: but hydrogen we could produce right here at home if 500 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: we found an efficient way of doing it, so it didn't, 501 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: you know, so no longer cost more to create the 502 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: fuel than the fuel itself would would benefit us. So 503 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: that's how fuel cells work. That's kind of the the 504 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: whole detail. Did you anything else to add before I 505 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: go into No. I mean, there's there's a lot more 506 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: to it in terms of the depth of the reaction 507 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: and how all of that works. But no, I think 508 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: we did a pretty good job of hitting the high 509 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: points of it. Yeah. Yeah, And and it is a 510 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: huge challenge and we may be one that we overcome. 511 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: It's a little early to say, but before we get there, 512 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: I'm afraid we're gonna have to answer a little listener mail. 513 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: This listener mail comes from Megan from Boston, Massachusetts, and 514 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: Megan says, I love the podcast, keep them coming. Could 515 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: you please dedicate one podcast to Internet Protocol Version six. 516 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: I don't fully understand why i p v four is 517 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: running out of addresses and how the switch to i 518 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: p V six will be implemented. I think that would 519 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: make a great and informative podcast, and I'm sure there 520 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: are other listeners interested in this topic. Thanks. Well, it's 521 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: not really a big enough topic to do a full 522 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: podcast on necessarily, but we can give you a real 523 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: quick rundown on what the issue is. Yeah. Um, the 524 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: issue is basically your I i P enabled cell phone, 525 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: and your laptop and your you know, iopod, and your 526 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: tablet and your three desktop computers, and your roommates gear, 527 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: and the people downstairs and everyone else in the building 528 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: and everyone else in the city, in New County, in 529 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: the state, and the country and the world. There's a lot, 530 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: a lot of of of devices that everyone has now 531 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: that used their own individual I P address, And as 532 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: as robust as i p v four was, it just 533 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: is going to run out of addresses with all these 534 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: new devices coming onto the network and uh not retiring 535 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: enough of them to make room. Yeah. See, I p 536 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: V four is a thirty two bit address system, and 537 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: that when you translate three two bit into actual managers. 538 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: Uh and most you would have four billion, two four million, 539 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: n sixty seven thousand two dresses. Once those addresses are gone, 540 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: that's that's it. If you're on an IP four system, 541 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: you cannot add any more devices to the Internet because 542 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: each device has to have its own unique IP address. 543 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: That's the way the Internet works. If you don't have 544 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: your own unique address, you cannot send and receive information 545 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: because the information wouldn't know where to go. So I 546 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: was gonna say to Starry interrupt that one nice thing 547 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: about the switch is that it's uh they coexist. Yeah. Yeah. 548 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: The IPv six uses a hundred and twenty eight bit 549 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: addresses as opposed to thirty two bit, which gives you 550 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: about three point four Okay, take a three, put it, 551 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: you know, put a four behind it. Then behind the 552 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: four putty zeros. Okay, that's how many addresses. So many 553 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: that we would not run out in the foreseeable future. 554 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: It would take everyone having everything they own the Internet connected, 555 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: and even then we still would have plenty of addresses 556 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: left over. So uh and yes, like you said, the 557 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: two systems can coincide. Um. The issue about implementation is 558 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: that that's a an organization by organization process. It's not 559 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: like there's gonna flip a switch and everything switches from 560 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: I P four to I P six. And there's as 561 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: far as I know, no official timetable for migration, so 562 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: people are sort of taking their time to do that, 563 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,719 Speaker 1: although some people have already gone ahead and upgraded their 564 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: systems to run on I P P six so UM 565 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: and I think pretty much all the mainstream operating systems, uh, 566 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: you know, Windows, Mac and Lenox will accept either. So 567 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: it's it's not really an issue of of having the 568 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,479 Speaker 1: infrastructure in place, it's just a matter of you know, 569 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: doing it, Yeah, getting off your button switching over UM 570 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: and what I'm saying, getting off your butt. I mean 571 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: that as the organizations that are all running these servers 572 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: that are they the kind of the backbone of the internet. Um, 573 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: and so we're kind of at their mercy whenever they 574 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: get around to switching it over. And some organizations don't 575 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: prioritize it very highly, so it may be a while 576 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: before everyone's over to I P six. Now, whether we 577 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: get to the point where we run out of addresses 578 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: before uh we before that happens. That remains to be seen. 579 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: Chris is skeptical. I'm scared. Well, they've been. They've been 580 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: talking about it for quite some time now, years, several 581 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: years now, So it's not like this is a new problem, um. 582 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: And thankfully it's not something like the y t K 583 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: problem where we have any solid deadline that we have 584 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: to hit otherwise things might go for blue. So now 585 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: this is more of a we don't know when it 586 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: will happen. It will all depend on how many UH 587 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: devices get connected to the internet, right, So that's much 588 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: more comforting anyway. Megan, thanks for the listener mail. If 589 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: any of you have anything you'd like to write to us, 590 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: you can send an email to text stuff at how 591 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com and we will talk to you 592 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: again really soon. If you're a tech stuff and be 593 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: sure to check us out on Winter tech Stuff hs 594 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: wsr handle, and you can also find us on Facebook 595 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: at Facebook dot com slash tech Stuff h s W. 596 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit 597 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com and be sure to check 598 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: out the new tech stuff blog now on the house 599 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: stuff Works homepage brought to you by the reinvented two 600 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 1: thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you