Speaker 1: Everybody, welcome to uh this that we're gonna call this
Speaker 1: an Alaska wop. This is a FWOP episode many we
Speaker 1: recorded it comes right out and we're in Alaska, so
Speaker 1: it's an Alaska fop. And I'm here with my friend
Speaker 1: and I like to think of him as my personal pilot.
Speaker 2: Vance.
Speaker 1: Here's a Robertus Roberts. Robert's okay, we always call you Roberts.
Speaker 1: I knew Vance is. Vance is a floatplane pilot. This
Speaker 1: is his floatplane right here. This is personal plane. You'd
Speaker 1: call him like a You're a bush pilot. Yeah, like
Speaker 1: Alaska bush pilot flies on floats. I knew Vance prior
Speaker 1: when he was flying down here in southeast Alaska for
Speaker 1: an aviation outfit. He left the aviation outfit started his
Speaker 1: own aviation outfit called black Rock Aviation. And he's a
Speaker 1: one man, one plane show right right. You've been flying
Speaker 1: for how many years floatplanes?
Speaker 3: Twenty three years?
Speaker 2: How long flying in general? Thirty born in Nebraska.
Speaker 3: Colorado, Colorado, lived in Nebraska for a while.
Speaker 1: Okay, yea born in Colorado, lived in Nebraska, came in Alaska.
Speaker 2: What age?
Speaker 3: That's probably about thirty five thirty six? One?
Speaker 2: Had you always known you want to fly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it just kind of grew up out in
Speaker 4: rural areas and like the just watching crop testers and stuff, and.
Speaker 2: Oh that's how you got it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So at what point if you want to be a
Speaker 1: pilot and you want to and you want to you know,
Speaker 1: any love remote areas and you like to hunt, you
Speaker 1: like to fish, at what point in your life, at
Speaker 1: what age did you be like, man, if you're going
Speaker 1: to do it doing Alaska?
Speaker 2: What drew you to that part of it?
Speaker 4: I worked for for the airlines is an aircraft mechanic
Speaker 4: for several years before I finished.
Speaker 2: All my ratings the big airlines.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I worked for Content Airlines way back when and.
Speaker 2: Wrenching on airplanes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I worked for Boeing.
Speaker 4: Anyway, I saw those guys that you know dragging the
Speaker 4: black suitcases around and none of them are smiling.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's.
Speaker 4: Like living out of a suitcase. And the ones I
Speaker 4: knew were all divorced. They're different, you know, going through
Speaker 4: a divorce.
Speaker 2: So I drinking in hotel bars every night.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I don't think I want to do that route,
Speaker 4: but I want to fly. And then had my private life.
Speaker 4: I actually I had been commercial rating, and then I
Speaker 4: went and uh went and got a floatplane add on,
Speaker 4: and I'm like, Okay, that's it, that's what I want
Speaker 4: to do. I want to fly floats. Yeah, I kind
Speaker 4: of knew I wanted to do that, But getting in
Speaker 4: the door somewhere to do it, it's the tough part
Speaker 4: getting what do you mean getting getting the hours before
Speaker 4: someone will even put you in in the seat.
Speaker 1: Or you mean, like to hire you. You gotta have
Speaker 1: hours commercial hours.
Speaker 3: You gotta have float time, you gotta have Alaska time.
Speaker 3: You gotta have got it. You know all this. Everyone
Speaker 3: has all the requirements.
Speaker 2: But gotcha. So it takes a while to get You
Speaker 2: need to have the job.
Speaker 4: To get the job right, you got to start somewhere else,
Speaker 4: usually in Alaska, like flying wheels or something.
Speaker 2: I see.
Speaker 4: I flew out of Bethel, fair Banks for a year
Speaker 4: and then racked up a bunch of hours up there,
Speaker 4: and then I got back down here as a to
Speaker 4: fly floats.
Speaker 1: And this is like, this is like the world's capital
Speaker 1: floatplane activity Southeast Alaska.
Speaker 3: I don't know if it is anymore. It used to be.
Speaker 4: Uh Lake could's pretty busy with floatplanes two up and
Speaker 4: anchorage and stuff.
Speaker 2: Okay, got it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's not as much industry as there used to
Speaker 4: be here as far as like commercial industry. There's a
Speaker 4: there's a tourism, but there used to be a lot
Speaker 4: of logging camps and stuff. And I kept floatplanes are
Speaker 4: really busy almost year.
Speaker 3: Round, got it.
Speaker 2: Got it.
Speaker 1: So as as that industry is dried up, that's affected
Speaker 1: how many floatplane operators are working and how many hours
Speaker 1: you can get.
Speaker 4: I would say, so, yeah, you guys aren't find as
Speaker 4: many hours as they used to. Yeah, unless you're hauling,
Speaker 4: unless you have the mail contracts or something like that.
Speaker 1: And a ton of guys, like in, a ton of
Speaker 1: guys in your occupation do flight seeing, right, but you
Speaker 1: tend to do you do some of that when you do,
Speaker 1: but you tend to work for outfitters, you fly guys
Speaker 1: like us, right, Yeah, you don't do as many flight
Speaker 1: seeing tours as you do.
Speaker 2: Kind of like working working operations.
Speaker 4: Right, I'll do yeah, fishing lodges and and you know
Speaker 4: people's cabins like you remote remote stuff yea, hunters, yeah,
Speaker 4: stuff like that. But yeah, everyone has to do tours too,
Speaker 4: just fill in the gaps and make some extra extra
Speaker 4: money for the air you know, So.
Speaker 1: How do you here's the thing that often comes up
Speaker 1: and you guys get sick of asking about it.
Speaker 2: How do you, like, how.
Speaker 1: Do you in your mind, how do you quantify the
Speaker 1: risk of being a floatplane pilot in Alaska? And just
Speaker 1: to just real quick, like, you guys are flying by
Speaker 1: You're not instrument flying, no, you're flying by what you
Speaker 1: can see.
Speaker 2: Visual flight rules.
Speaker 1: So like, how because it's the anytime I'll talk to
Speaker 1: people and be like, oh, yeah, we have a cab
Speaker 1: and we go out to our cabin, we charter a plane,
Speaker 1: and people always comment on like what is the risk?
Speaker 1: How do you picture like, how do you deal with
Speaker 1: or imagine the risk of being a pilot? Like you
Speaker 1: have to know, I'm sure you do. You have to
Speaker 1: know in your career a lot of pilots who've had REX.
Speaker 1: Some some survived had REX, and some died. How do
Speaker 1: you begin to think about it.
Speaker 4: If you're not thinking about it about the risk. If
Speaker 4: you're not, if you don't have a little bit of
Speaker 4: a you know, if something doesn't scare you anymore, huh,
Speaker 4: I mean even just a little bit, then you're probably
Speaker 4: not you know, if you're too numb to it, then
Speaker 4: you probably shouldn't be doing it, you know.
Speaker 2: Oh you think so, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Mean there's there's risk out here, you know.
Speaker 5: I mean, but but dude, do you ever feel like
Speaker 5: as a pilot do you ever you don't feel afraid
Speaker 5: because you like you're making like you're always making your
Speaker 5: calculation like you're the final say, but yeah, like we
Speaker 5: go where we don't go right right?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, but there's still always that you know that, Yeah,
Speaker 4: that gut feelings like yeah, nope, not going to do that.
Speaker 3: You gotta you gotta listen to that.
Speaker 2: Do you get you get like a do you get
Speaker 2: like a feeling?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah you do.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you don't want to be flying and and uh.
Speaker 3: And have that.
Speaker 4: But you get into situations where it's a little windy here,
Speaker 4: a little gusty there, and it's like, yep, I'm not
Speaker 4: landing there, you know, no good?
Speaker 2: So what is it? What is the biggest enemy? Is it?
Speaker 2: Is it visibility or wind?
Speaker 3: It's usually a combination.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's usually like it's usually just like wind, sheer,
Speaker 4: gusts and visibility. Yeah, yeah, a lot of times it's
Speaker 4: a combination. Here in Southeast you get all of it
Speaker 4: at one time. You get love visibility with gusty winds
Speaker 4: and and just yeah, it's all.
Speaker 3: It's all. It could be a combination of it.
Speaker 4: It could be I don't know, but the winds are
Speaker 4: it could be pretty bad sometimes here, you know, get
Speaker 4: in the seventies and stuff. But yeah, you're not flying
Speaker 4: during that stuff.
Speaker 2: Seventy miles an hour.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, winter time, but yeah, we don't fly in that.
Speaker 1: There's this idea and I always tell people just don't
Speaker 1: even know if it's actually true. Is it like when
Speaker 1: you're in an area that's all water and you're on floats.
Speaker 1: Isn't it some solid that you can always there's always
Speaker 1: a place to land or is it not that simple?
Speaker 3: Depends on the water. Yeah, the middle of strates when.
Speaker 2: It's eight footers what happens?
Speaker 4: Then you might get it down, but it ain't gonna
Speaker 4: be soft anyway soft and it may not stay together
Speaker 4: on you.
Speaker 3: I see, it may bust the part on you.
Speaker 2: So what is the best?
Speaker 1: Uh, how how do you describe like what kind of
Speaker 1: seas can you land in? Or what kind of seas
Speaker 1: has becomeing inadvisable?
Speaker 4: Well, I mean you can land in two footers pretty
Speaker 4: easy and in this thing, but you start getting bigger
Speaker 4: than that, it starts it's pretty rough landing.
Speaker 2: So like six foot is no good?
Speaker 3: No, yeah, no good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because yeah, there's nothing smooth to hit.
Speaker 4: No, you're gonna you're gonna hit one wave and go
Speaker 4: into the next one.
Speaker 2: Got it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the uh there's the thing that I iced to
Speaker 1: think it wasn't true, But it's gotta be true. Okay,
Speaker 1: we talked about rough weather, rough water. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: calm water.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Is it true that you.
Speaker 1: Can have a body of water be so still that
Speaker 1: you need to create chop Yeah, so that when you
Speaker 1: start going, the float's got something to bounce on or else,
Speaker 1: like the surface tension of the water holds the plane in.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's almost like a suction. Yeah, it'll it'll keep
Speaker 4: you down on the water. You gotta have some ripples
Speaker 4: sometimes like small lake or something that's just flat, calm,
Speaker 4: and you need the whole.
Speaker 3: Lake to get off.
Speaker 4: You'll cut circles, you do a circle or two, make
Speaker 4: some ripples, and then once you hit those, boom you'll
Speaker 4: pop off the water.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it'll actually like skip you up a little bit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it'll break that tension. Yeah, you can lift one
Speaker 4: float at a time too. It's called glassy water. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's it's a thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you're like in your area, there's lakes you'll
Speaker 1: land on. But let's say you were in an area
Speaker 1: and you only had to like you're in an area
Speaker 1: and your area you've never been. We're just whatever reason
Speaker 1: and you're determining can I land in a lake or not?
Speaker 2: What are you looking for?
Speaker 4: Well, you look for the size for one A lot
Speaker 4: of times. I want to look at maps and you know,
Speaker 4: try to get some measurements because.
Speaker 2: You need how many yards of water?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 4: Probably nine hundred is nice to have nine hundred yards
Speaker 4: a lot, Yeah, I mean especially for a lake you
Speaker 4: haven't been into. Right, So then you're also looking for
Speaker 4: the approach and departure if there's is there, is there terrain?
Speaker 3: Is there trees? Is it?
Speaker 4: Can you come and flat over the out of the
Speaker 4: creek that it's draining out of it or whatever?
Speaker 3: Is there a is it one way in? One way out?
Speaker 2: Ye?
Speaker 4: Can you do a step turn in? There is white
Speaker 4: enough for that? There's quite a few variables.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then you got to think, like you always
Speaker 1: have to come into the wind.
Speaker 4: Not always if you can land down end, but it's
Speaker 4: going to increase your your your ground run when you
Speaker 4: touch down.
Speaker 3: Can you take off with the wind or with the tailwind?
Speaker 2: Yeah you can't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean for you know, experienced pilots, you can
Speaker 3: do it. Yeah.
Speaker 4: You don't want to do that if you just start
Speaker 4: out on floats, but yeah, yeah, you always want to
Speaker 4: take off into the wind.
Speaker 3: It's preferred.
Speaker 2: Well, sometimes when you come in here, you circle.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what are you doing looking for debris?
Speaker 2: Oh, that's what you're you're scouting for debris.
Speaker 1: I always picture up there are calculating wind directions.
Speaker 2: You're just looking Is it clear?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Got it? Got it? Got it?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: That in also the wind. But I can usually tell
Speaker 4: the wind before I get here. I've been in here
Speaker 4: so much. But yeah, you can usually tell the wind
Speaker 4: from a distance after you've been flying for a while.
Speaker 4: But that's the biggest thing that floats is breathing the
Speaker 4: water and knowing where the wind's coming from, what it's doing.
Speaker 1: So what's the uh, what's the worst thing clients can
Speaker 1: do when you charge a flight, Like, what's the most
Speaker 1: annoying thing passengers do?
Speaker 3: Put a camera right in my face.
Speaker 1: Yeah, next to that, I don't think that's that's you know,
Speaker 1: I understand your policy. Once once a guy not an
Speaker 1: interview person, but once a camera guy points a camera you,
Speaker 1: he's done right, he's too a new air carrier.
Speaker 4: Well, no, if it's not necessarily that, it's like if
Speaker 4: they have to, if they ask first, and like, you know,
Speaker 4: I'm gonna can I film you?
Speaker 3: That's fine.
Speaker 4: But when I started a takeoff roll and they stick
Speaker 4: a camera in my face like.
Speaker 3: That, I haven't done that.
Speaker 4: It's gonna be like, you know, I need to see
Speaker 4: where I'm going. You're instructing my view for one.
Speaker 2: You know, you know all of the funniest things I've
Speaker 2: seen you do funny to me.
Speaker 1: We're taking off out of your out of your shop,
Speaker 1: your hanger, and we're like coming out of your hangar,
Speaker 1: coming out into the I mean, just for people, listen
Speaker 1: where Vance's hanger is. When he comes out of there,
Speaker 1: there's like commercial airline traffic. I mean different, but I
Speaker 1: mean it's like it's a busy airspace.
Speaker 2: There's other floatplanes. Was a airport my neighbor.
Speaker 1: I have my neighbor with me, and it was like
Speaker 1: you were coming out because you're flying like you just
Speaker 1: gotta see what's going on.
Speaker 2: I remember you're reaching forward, reaching and grabbing my neighbor.
Speaker 2: He was leaning forward to look at something. I remember
Speaker 2: you doing this because you needed to check for traffic. Yeah,
Speaker 2: in the car, you know, you're like, I need to
Speaker 2: look on that. What's going on for a pull out?
Speaker 1: So that and then what kind of was the dumbest
Speaker 1: question you've forgotten about from when you're flying with somebody?
Speaker 3: Jeez, I don't know.
Speaker 2: There's lots of them, too many of a name.
Speaker 3: Too many of a name. Like people that are off
Speaker 3: ship still ask what's that? What's that? What's the elevation?
Speaker 2: You know at the ocean?
Speaker 4: Yeah, they got off a cruise ship and get on
Speaker 4: your float plane on the same body of water.
Speaker 3: And the last what the elevation is on this lake
Speaker 3: here on the ocean? Still right there?
Speaker 2: A zero zero, I tell him.
Speaker 4: Like four ft sitting off the water.
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's here's what's my last question for you? Because
Speaker 1: this is a fantasy I have. Well, first I'll set
Speaker 1: it up with a story.
Speaker 2: I was just in.
Speaker 1: Africa with my family and we were flying in small aircraft.
Speaker 1: We were flying in caravans, yeah, a lot of caravans are.
Speaker 1: So my boy, my older boy, fifteen year old, he
Speaker 1: sitting up front, right, Okay, he fancies himself that just
Speaker 1: by observing a.
Speaker 2: Pilot, he's got it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: So we get on another plane and my little boy
Speaker 1: who's ten, gets invited to ride up front. And my
Speaker 1: older boy then, who's miffed because he likes to be
Speaker 1: up front, right, he says, well, a lot of good
Speaker 1: it's going to do us having him up front.
Speaker 2: If something were to happen to the pilot.
Speaker 3: Is your older boy thinks he can fly.
Speaker 2: Because he's after observing He's like, I'm cool. Like if
Speaker 2: this guy has a heart attack, I'm cool.
Speaker 1: What A like when I sit there and always thinking, like,
Speaker 1: let's say I don't know, advance has a massive heart
Speaker 1: attack and dies. You know what am I gonna do?
Speaker 1: Is it like like people have this fantasy. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you know this, but people have this fantasy.
Speaker 1: We joke about it. Is anyone ever that's never flown
Speaker 1: gonna like get the hang of it in time to
Speaker 1: figure it out?
Speaker 3: I don't know. It depends on the person. I think,
Speaker 3: you know, I mean like if they're.
Speaker 4: You know, if they've grown up operating things like boats
Speaker 4: and cars, and you know they're mechanically, you know they
Speaker 4: might Well.
Speaker 1: He might be up there and fiddle around enough to
Speaker 1: get where you can at least yeah, survive the landing.
Speaker 3: Yeah possibly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you hear that stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't ask somebody.
Speaker 2: He's always doing up here, now, I understand that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you wouldn't.
Speaker 1: I got this little vance has this little thing he
Speaker 1: likes to fiddle with right here.
Speaker 2: I didn't think it did anything, but it does. It's
Speaker 2: has something.
Speaker 3: It's a trim.
Speaker 2: I just thought he likes doing it because it never
Speaker 2: feels like anything.
Speaker 4: When because I'm holding pressure on the yolk and you
Speaker 4: know you don't feel that, I feel it, and then
Speaker 4: I take the pressure off with this and I can
Speaker 4: release it.
Speaker 3: Yeah sure, yeah, So.
Speaker 2: What's the old pilot? When are you too old to fly?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: Seventy sixty sixty joking, I'm almost sixteen right now.
Speaker 3: No, I don't know.
Speaker 4: I think it's as long as you're you feel healthy
Speaker 4: enough to do it, you know, I think you know
Speaker 4: the airlines. I think the cutoff is sixty five.
Speaker 2: I think, okay, but you can do this later.
Speaker 3: I could do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can be licensed to keep flying.
Speaker 4: Yeah, in my seventies eighties, probably if I wanted to,
Speaker 4: But yeah, I don't think I want to go that long.
Speaker 1: So do you like the stress of being your own guy,
Speaker 1: your own plane, your own guy, handling your own business.
Speaker 1: Do you prefer that stress over the stress of being
Speaker 1: in charge of a big operation with tons of planes
Speaker 1: and tons of pilots. It's probably different stresses, but both stressful.
Speaker 3: I prefer this, really.
Speaker 2: It more peaceful being a loan operator.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you're working hard, but it's like you're
Speaker 4: doing it for yourself though, you know what I mean,
Speaker 4: just like any self employed person. Right, it's a little
Speaker 4: more satisfaction in your job, you know, because it's you know,
Speaker 4: you're not doing it for him or them, You're doing
Speaker 4: it for you.
Speaker 2: But man, you got when it's busy time of year, Man,
Speaker 2: you got long days. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Just for instance, I knew you had all I knew
Speaker 1: all kinds of junk you do every night. I had
Speaker 1: no idea that every night you got to wash the plane.
Speaker 2: To get the salt water.
Speaker 3: Right, I have help, I do have you do have
Speaker 3: help with that? Okay? Yeah, honest helping me the summer.
Speaker 3: She's great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's a it's a job, man.
Speaker 4: It's like, you know, we don't subscrub it every night.
Speaker 4: We at least rents it off so you get the
Speaker 4: salt off of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's but more, I guess, my point rather than
Speaker 1: just just simply washing.
Speaker 2: My point is it's not like when you're done, you
Speaker 2: like park and walk away. Right, there's a lot, right.
Speaker 1: And then every blank hours you got to do this,
Speaker 1: and every blank hours you got to do that.
Speaker 4: That's any But it's you know, it's it's it's it's
Speaker 4: a short season. You know, it's pretty hectic. But yeah,
Speaker 4: in another two months will be you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got time to take care of So yeah,
Speaker 1: well so tell people, So you fly anything within how
Speaker 1: many miles of catch can what's the farthest you roam.
Speaker 4: The longest charter I've done it is probably up to
Speaker 4: juno Yeah ok, yeah, all right, two and a half hours.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: So now I know people. I know people that are
Speaker 1: pilots who say that they like to fly with you
Speaker 1: because you're such an exceptional pilot.
Speaker 3: Oh oh thanks, whoever they are?
Speaker 2: Cap Mac? Oh yeah, Cap Mac is a pilot. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and he's like, that's my pilot. He likes you.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So black Rock Aviation, that's a little bit a glimpse
Speaker 1: of the life of of a floatplane pilot.
Speaker 2: A lot of people have dreams are coming out and
Speaker 2: being pilots. Yeah, I I I don't.
Speaker 1: I had it, and I just realized that it's probably better.
Speaker 2: It's the charter of a plane.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know. I used to think like, I'm gonna get
Speaker 2: my own plane, and now I'm like, no, you're not
Speaker 2: comment Yeah, commitment.
Speaker 3: If you gonna do that.
Speaker 1: So black Rock Aviation out to catch Kaine, Alaska. Dvance
Speaker 1: Robert Robert, I'll never remember that, dude. Advance robertus uh
Speaker 1: soul proprietor pilot UH private, owns his own plane, flies
Speaker 1: around mechanic mechanic too, flies around beautiful Alaska, getting everybody
Speaker 1: to their fishing spots on time.
Speaker 3: So what we try to do.
Speaker 2: Thanks thanks for doing the interview, man, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3: My problem.
Speaker 2: Thank you everybody