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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for Session four h nine or Therapy

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Speaker 1: for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation

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Speaker 1: afterword from our sponsors. Today's conversation is a very special one.

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Speaker 1: We're joined by educator, writer, and bibliotherapist Emily Rumble here

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Speaker 1: to share the powerful story behind her debut book, Bibliotherapy

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Speaker 1: in the Bronx. In this inspiring and deeply resonant conversation,

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Speaker 1: Emily explains how the books we read can be a lifeline,

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Speaker 1: a mirror, and a healing bam, especially for young people

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Speaker 1: navigating complex emotional landscapes from growing up in the Bronx

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Speaker 1: to creating reading circles for healing and underserved schools, Emily

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Speaker 1: has reimagined what therapy can look like for black and

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Speaker 1: brown communities, censoring literature, community and voice. In this conversation,

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Speaker 1: we're discussing representation, literacy as liberation, and the magic that

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Speaker 1: happens when you see yourself on the page. If something

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Speaker 1: resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with

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Speaker 1: us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session,

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Speaker 1: or join our patreon for more conversations, add free podcast

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Speaker 1: episodes and even special giveaways. You can join us at

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Speaker 1: community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today, Emily, thank

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Speaker 1: you for having me. So. I want to talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about your love for reading. Can you remember

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Speaker 1: when you first recognize, like the moment that you were

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Speaker 1: in love with reading. Was it a particular book, a

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Speaker 1: particular author? When did you fall in love with reading? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I would say first grade, because that's when I learned

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Speaker 2: how to read. I loved my first grade teacher, Ms. Parkins.

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Speaker 2: She was so much fun. She made stories come to

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Speaker 2: life in her classroom and really imaginative ways we would

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Speaker 2: put on plays. So I remember first reading Shreganona in

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Speaker 2: first grade and falling in love with Tommy Depayola, who

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Speaker 2: was also born and raised in Maridan, Connecticut, where I

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Speaker 2: was born, and I just thought it was so cool

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Speaker 2: that there was this children's book author writing about a

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Speaker 2: witch who was like very loving and ruled by ethics

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Speaker 2: and morals. And so Miss Parkins would use Streganona's stories

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Speaker 2: to teach us like character development and moral lessons, but

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Speaker 2: she always made it fun and so it never felt

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Speaker 2: like we were being taught how.

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Speaker 1: To be good kids, so to speak.

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Speaker 2: But that was really where I fell in love with

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Speaker 2: reading was in Miss Parkins classroom.

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Speaker 1: So clearly she did an incredible job instealing the love

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Speaker 1: for reading in you.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely she made it so much fun. We never felt

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Speaker 2: like reading was a chore. I feel like after no

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Speaker 2: child left behind, we standardized reading, and we made reading

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Speaker 2: a chore, and we took the imagination and the fun

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Speaker 2: out of it. Right with the cancelation of programs like

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Speaker 2: Reading Rainbow, like all of the things that made reading.

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Speaker 1: Joyful and playful for children.

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Speaker 2: I'm so grateful that that was such a central part

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Speaker 2: of my childhood because I had a hard childhood and so.

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Speaker 1: Being able to go to school, being able to be in.

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Speaker 2: Classrooms like mss Parkins, that for me was a literary

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Speaker 2: escape in and of itself.

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Speaker 1: So it definitely started early for me. Yes, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you have seen the millennials and older kind of reminiscing

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Speaker 1: on the coupons we would get from Peze. The hood

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Speaker 1: when you read a certain amount of books like that

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Speaker 1: definitely was a fund of love for reading for me

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Speaker 1: for sure. I wish they would bring that back me too.

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Speaker 1: So what does it mean to be a bibliotherapist, Emily?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, as a bibliotherapist, I use literature as a

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Speaker 2: healing tool to support the work that I do with

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Speaker 2: clients and therapy, and it's really about prescribing literature, whether

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Speaker 2: that be fiction, self help, memoir, poetry, that's going to

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Speaker 2: help clients to process emotions, to gain insight into their

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Speaker 2: life experiences, to how help them discover new perspectives. And

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Speaker 2: I feel like this is a perfect conversation to have

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Speaker 2: with you because I've used your books. Sisterhood heals a

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Speaker 2: lot in bibliotherapy and it's such a culturally responsive bibliotherapy

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Speaker 2: text because I feel like it's so culturally relevant and

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Speaker 2: you speak specifically to the dynamics that black women have

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Speaker 2: in our interpersonal friendships.

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Speaker 1: And so when I'm.

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Speaker 2: Thinking about how I'm going to prescribe a book, I

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Speaker 2: really want to make sure that it's culturally relevant and

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Speaker 2: that it's not saying, Hey, there's this general framework that

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Speaker 2: you're going to apply to your life and you're going

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Speaker 2: to be healed. So it's really about understanding how to

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Speaker 2: prescribe a text that's going to affirm a client's identity,

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Speaker 2: that's going to create space for them to imagine and

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Speaker 2: to pursue their healing on very unique life path.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for that definition. Can you talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about like the similarities and maybe the differences between

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Speaker 1: like bibulotherapy and something like poetry therapy or art therapy.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, So bibliotherapy is under the umbrella of the creative

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Speaker 2: arts therapy include the likes of art therapy, drama therapy,

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Speaker 2: music therapy, and the like. So bibliotherapy is really an

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Speaker 2: expressive creative methodology and it's an intervention that would work

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Speaker 2: really well for someone who is either naturally a bibliophile,

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Speaker 2: so someone who's always reading. We have this saying in

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Speaker 2: the book community. A lot of people will say books

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Speaker 2: are my therapy, So bibliotherapy is not promoting that. But

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Speaker 2: what we are saying is that if a client is

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Speaker 2: an avid reader, if they engage in a personal reading practice,

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Speaker 2: that is very crucial to their social support system.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: I think of reading for some clients as like a

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Speaker 2: psychosocial support And this is a great opportunity as a

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Speaker 2: clinician to come in and say, Hey, what's the last

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Speaker 2: book that you've read that really opened your eyes to

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Speaker 2: a new perspective, or what's for us book you read

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Speaker 2: that made you cry or have such an intense emotional reaction.

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Speaker 2: Because there's an emotional response, right, we know as clinicians

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Speaker 2: that there's always a reason underneath.

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Speaker 1: So under bibliotherapy you would have poetry therapy, which is

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Speaker 1: its own unique intervention, because we know there's some people

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Speaker 1: who maybe they don't read full novels, or they're more

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Speaker 1: drawn to poetry for its symbolism and the literary techniques

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Speaker 1: that a poet might engage with. I love poetry and

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Speaker 1: bibliotherapy because it's also a sort of rich sensory experience

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Speaker 1: for folks to understand how to make connections between what

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Speaker 1: it looked like, what it felt like, what.

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Speaker 2: It sounded like right, Like, I also incorporate a lot

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Speaker 2: of narrative techniques when I'm using bibliotherapy, So just getting

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Speaker 2: a client to kind of externalize the problem and getting

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Speaker 2: them to even engage in creative practices characterizing your anger, right,

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Speaker 2: what color is it, how loud does anger sound?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: What's anger's voice like? So there's a lot of neat

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Speaker 2: ways that a bibliotherapist can engage in this method that

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Speaker 2: would be really enlightening, not just for the clinician who's

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Speaker 2: serving a client, but for the client who's already engaging

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Speaker 2: in this practice at home and in their personal life.

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Speaker 1: So I'd love to hear about, like how I would

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Speaker 1: imagine some people seek you out specifically because they want

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Speaker 1: to do bibulotherapy. Yeah, maybe some clients who you naturally

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Speaker 1: like in just conversation you find out that they enjoy reading.

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Speaker 1: So how do you decide, like when to offer bibliotherapy

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Speaker 1: as an intervention.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because there's so many different pathways. So

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Speaker 2: sometimes someone's just coming to me.

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Speaker 1: For bibliotherapy, absolutely, but then other times I might just

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Speaker 1: have a therapy client who I've been working with and

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Speaker 1: maybe we've reached an impasse in the therapy process, or

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Speaker 1: maybe there's a gap in their psycho educational knowledge, and

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Speaker 1: I might prescribe a book, or I might say, hey,

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Speaker 1: let's read this together and see what you think about this,

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Speaker 1: kind of in the way Sisterhood heals, right, you explain

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Speaker 1: like the different attachment styles, You explain the life cycle

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Speaker 1: phases of psychosocial development from Eric Ericson's lens. Like sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's as simple as that, but other times it's organic,

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Speaker 1: like in the therapy room. Like I've had clients where

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Speaker 1: we're in the middle of a really rich conversation or

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Speaker 1: an emotional one, and they might look at my bookshelf

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Speaker 1: and be like, oh my god, like that was my

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Speaker 1: grandmother's favorite book.

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Speaker 2: Some of my best sessions have happened that way, where

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Speaker 2: a client, just in the middle of a really rich

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Speaker 2: therapeutic conversation, they're like, oh my god, you have that book,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, yeah, let's you know, go grab

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Speaker 2: it off the bookshelf.

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Speaker 1: What does this book mean to you?

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Speaker 2: Next thing, they're flipping through it and they're reading something

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Speaker 2: aloud to me or reading something to themselves, and you see,

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Speaker 2: you know, when a client starts to sort of elicit

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Speaker 2: emotion or something meaningful starts to bubble up, we can

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Speaker 2: use that.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes it doesn't even have to be a book.

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Speaker 2: I've had rich bibliotherapeutic conversations with clients where we read

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Speaker 2: song lyrics or where we've just engaged in expressive writing,

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Speaker 2: which is also a component of bibliotherapy. So anytime that

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Speaker 2: we encourage a client to journal or to engage in

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Speaker 2: an expressive writing practice, that's also under the umbrella and

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Speaker 2: jurisdiction of bibliotherapy as an intervention. So I'm thinking about, like,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, how do you stay on top of

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Speaker 2: all of the continuing education credits that we have for

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Speaker 2: our licenses, and now you're also like reading books that

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Speaker 2: your clients are reading in you know, it feels like

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Speaker 2: you really have to kind of stay on top of

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Speaker 2: what's out there to know what to recommend for people.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, you know what's so beautiful, doctor Joy.

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Speaker 2: When I was doing research for my book Bibliotherapy in

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Speaker 2: the Bronx, I went to the Schomberg and I read

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Speaker 2: through the letters of doctor Sadie Peterson Delaney, whose legacy

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Speaker 2: has been buried, but not anymore because I write about

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Speaker 2: her legacy.

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Speaker 1: It's very crucial to the history of bibliotherapy.

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Speaker 2: And it only came into my awareness because I was

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Speaker 2: reading something that Eleanor Roosevelt had written and she referred

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Speaker 2: to doctor Sadie Peterson Delaney as the godmother of bibliotherapy.

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Speaker 1: So quickly I went and googled.

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Speaker 2: It, and I found out that doctor Sadie Peterson's Delaney

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Speaker 2: is a black woman who not only was the head

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Speaker 2: librarian at Tuskegee, but she did such great work there

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Speaker 2: that she was actually sent to the Schomberg at the

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Speaker 2: time the one hundred and thirty fifth Street Library through

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Speaker 2: the New York Public Library System to curate their bibliotherapy collection.

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Speaker 2: And so when I started reading through the letters of

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Speaker 2: doctor Sadie Peterson' Delaney and all the amazing work that

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Speaker 2: she did her relationship to different programs, I mean, I

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Speaker 2: was reading like a letter that Councy Cullen wrote her

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Speaker 2: during the Harlem Renaissance, thanking her for using his poetry

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Speaker 2: working with delinquent youth, like it was so emotional, but

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Speaker 2: it was beautiful to see the way she curated her

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Speaker 2: bibliotherapy career like she would build relationships with publishers to

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Speaker 2: amplify black literature. She played a huge role in getting

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Speaker 2: the work of Harlem Renaissance authors and poets you know

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Speaker 2: out there widely known outside of just Harlem. And so

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Speaker 2: that's sort of the lens through which I've built my

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Speaker 2: practice literary NYC's I amplify the work of black authors.

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Speaker 2: I don't get paid for it. It's just the work

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Speaker 2: that I do because it's also part of my medicine cabinet. Right,

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Speaker 2: It's like, I want to know what's out there. I

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Speaker 2: want to be able not to support black writers, but

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Speaker 2: also like I'm looking for the best medicine for my community.

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Speaker 2: So I need to know, you know, what's coming out,

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Speaker 2: when is it coming out? And I'm building relationships with

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Speaker 2: publishers so that they can know, Hey, I'm an African

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Speaker 2: American Puyerrican bibliotherapist from the Bronx. I use my plot

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Speaker 2: form to share public education on this modality as a

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Speaker 2: healing vehicle for folks. Can we stay connected? So that's

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Speaker 2: really how I do it, is just by letting people

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Speaker 2: know who I am, keeping my pulse on what's happening

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Speaker 2: and publishing, building those relationships so that people know this

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Speaker 2: is what I do and this is my lane. So

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Speaker 2: sometimes and I'm grateful for this because I've worked so

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Speaker 2: harsh and I know, you know, but I'm at the

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Speaker 2: point now in my career where when a book comes out,

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Speaker 2: they'll tap me on my shoulder and say, hey, am,

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Speaker 2: we got this book coming out June twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: We think that you'd love it.

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Speaker 2: So I'm so grateful to have that now because it's

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Speaker 2: a synergy that I've had to work for years to

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Speaker 2: cultivate and trust that I've had to establish within the industry.

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Speaker 1: But I'm just really grateful for that. And I'm always reading.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie to you.

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Speaker 2: I don't have much of a social life, right like

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Speaker 2: my girls. I always talk about sisterhod Heels. My girls

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Speaker 2: are like, we get it. You want to be home reading.

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Speaker 2: We're coming over with about blah blu war and like,

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Speaker 2: who we miss you. But I'm always home reading. You know.

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Speaker 2: It's just me, my clients and my babies. That's really

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Speaker 2: my life. So I spent a lot of time reading.

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Speaker 2: And I'm also just an avid reader, you know. I

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Speaker 2: devour books.

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Speaker 1: I love reading.

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Speaker 2: My grandmother raised me passed away when I was fourteen,

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Speaker 2: suddenly passed away. I was thrust into foster care, and

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Speaker 2: I emancipated myself at the age of sixteen.

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Speaker 1: So literally, when people ask me, like what do books

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Speaker 1: mean to you, it's like books are literally my family,

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Speaker 1: Like books raised me, talk about a framework, like I've

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Speaker 1: read for reasons beyond just literary escapism. Right, Literally, books

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Speaker 1: safe my life. Yeah, and I love that you are.

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Speaker 1: It feels like very much walking in doctor Sadie's footsteps

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Speaker 1: and like continuing her legacy even though you didn't know

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Speaker 1: about her until you started doing your own writing. That's

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Speaker 1: so beautiful. Thank you for saying that.

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Speaker 2: It definitely makes me emotional, Like I remember reading through

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Speaker 2: her letters and just getting at a point where I

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Speaker 2: just started crying because it just hits different that I'm

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Speaker 2: thirty nine years old. I've been doing this work since

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Speaker 2: I was twenty two, Like, how would it have been

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Speaker 2: to have known about doctor Sadie Peterson is Delaney's legacy

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Speaker 2: at twenty two? And it just broke my heart because

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Speaker 2: I'm like, nobody knows her name. That's a problem that

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Speaker 2: so many of our greats and our heroes are their

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Speaker 2: legacies are buried, you know, and like I got access

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Speaker 2: to these archives, but it was because I was writing

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Speaker 2: a book.

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Speaker 1: And so at one point the librarian comes over to

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Speaker 1: me and she's like, are you.

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Speaker 2: Are it's Peter, you're crying. So I was telling her

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Speaker 2: I'm writing a book, I'm biblio therapy. This is my

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Speaker 2: thing as a therapist, and she was like, oh my god.

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Speaker 2: So once she connected the dots of what it means

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Speaker 2: to me to be sitting here at the archive of

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Speaker 2: doctor Sadie Peterson Slaney's letters, she started crying. So we

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Speaker 2: were both boohooing, and in true librarian fashion, she was like, okay, girl,

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Speaker 2: we can't get.

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Speaker 1: No ceres on the material riting not unneath our guys,

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Speaker 1: So tell me more about the process of writing Bibliotherapy in.

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Speaker 2: The bronx Oooh man, it's been a long journey. It's

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Speaker 2: been a deeply personal journey for me. It was hard

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Speaker 2: to find a publisher who unders what I was trying

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Speaker 2: to do with the book. Some folks wanted it to

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Speaker 2: be like a therapeutic resource, very academic. Some folks saw

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Speaker 2: it as a memoir. And I felt like I needed

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Speaker 2: it to be both. I needed it to be accessible

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Speaker 2: to someone who may be just curious about this method

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Speaker 2: and wants to engage in Biblical therapy in their own

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Speaker 2: personal practice. But I also wanted it to be educational.

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Speaker 2: Four clinicians in the field and librarians, we'll do this

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Speaker 2: work every day. And so the book blends memoir, therapeutic guidance,

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Speaker 2: and resource curation. So you're going to get a lot

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Speaker 2: of good, juicy book recommendations and a lot of client

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Speaker 2: case studies around how I prescribe books and why I

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Speaker 2: prescribe to this book, and how the medicine and particular

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Speaker 2: text helped to facilitate a therapeutic process that led to

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Speaker 2: a client's healing overall. And so this book, for me,

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Speaker 2: it's my baby. I'm just so excited for the books

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Speaker 2: to be out there in reader's hands. I've got a

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Speaker 2: few advanced readers who are reading it now, and it's

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Speaker 2: beautiful just to hear people say, oh my god, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I've been using this my whole life. I didn't know

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Speaker 2: that this is what deblile therapy was, or wow, I've

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Speaker 2: been doing this with clients and now I get to

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Speaker 2: deepen my deblio therapy practice as a clinician because I've

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Speaker 2: got some more tools and that always makes me happy

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Speaker 2: to hear.

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Speaker 1: So I wonder if you could give us a bit

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Speaker 1: of a sneak peek. So when you think about, like

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Speaker 1: your strategy for choosing books to prescribe for specific clients

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Speaker 1: depending on what they're going through, how do you choose

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Speaker 1: the right book and then what kinds of things follow

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Speaker 1: after they choose the book or after you choose the book?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I use my three P method, which is

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Speaker 2: the presenting problem. So I always want to understand what

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Speaker 2: a client is coming to therapy for. And we know

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Speaker 2: this as clinicians. A client might come in and say

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Speaker 2: that the problem is one thing, and then we uncover

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Speaker 2: along the way that it's actually something else at the

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Speaker 2: root of the problem. So presenting problem and then preferences.

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Speaker 2: I want to understand who my client is as a reader.

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Speaker 2: Number one, Are they a reader? Are they someone who

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Speaker 2: would just pick up a book casually because they enjoy reading?

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Speaker 2: If they're not, then what is something that they do

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Speaker 2: engage with?

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Speaker 1: Do they like poetry? Do they like hip hop? I

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Speaker 1: do a lot of hip hop therapy.

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Speaker 2: We're always reading hip hop lyrics, writing our own lyrics.

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Speaker 2: I work with a lot of black men in the

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Speaker 2: Bronx who are also very creative artistically, So sometimes it's that,

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Speaker 2: But I just want to get a sense of who

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Speaker 2: the client is as a reader. What they gravitate to

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Speaker 2: in books are their auto by authors for you that

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Speaker 2: you already feel emotionally connected to, and anything.

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Speaker 1: They write you're buying you're reading.

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Speaker 2: Also, is there anything that you avoid in books? That's

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Speaker 2: really important because for some clients, we want to be

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Speaker 2: very careful that we're not prescribing something that's going to

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Speaker 2: be very triggering or even just in general mindful of

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Speaker 2: sort of some of the literary devices that author my

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Speaker 2: employ to tell a story. Right, So like if I

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Speaker 2: have a client who is very easily activated by symbolic

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Speaker 2: language or who maybe struggles with reality orientation, I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to be prescribing something that's like very poetic nature, right,

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Speaker 2: Like we're going to try to go for something that's

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Speaker 2: more like concrete.

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Speaker 1: Specific in nature.

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Speaker 2: I do an intake essentially with what I call of

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Speaker 2: reading intake that sort of addresses these different factors so

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Speaker 2: that I can get to know who my client is

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Speaker 2: as a reader. I create like a profile for myself

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Speaker 2: and I am a spiritual therapist. So sometimes I engage

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Speaker 2: in bibliomancy, where I just set an intention based on

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Speaker 2: what the client has shared with me about their history,

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Speaker 2: about their preferences, and then I'll pull a few texts

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Speaker 2: just using my own intuition, and we'll see what we

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Speaker 2: pull and see what comes up. And then that's where

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Speaker 2: my final step comes in, and that's prescription. And that's

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Speaker 2: where I actually decide, like, Okay, this is going to

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Speaker 2: be the prescription. And sometimes it's a book, a full novel.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it's a self help text. Sometimes it's just an

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Speaker 2: excerpt from a book or an interaction between characters. I

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Speaker 2: do a lot of pulling from literature. Sometimes I may

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Speaker 2: even curate a PowerPoint presentation. Now I've created like five

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Speaker 2: slides for us to not only discuss what self worth is,

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Speaker 2: what are some early indicators of developing it. But here

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Speaker 2: are like three scenes from fiction texts where characters either

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Speaker 2: have to engage in decision making or assert their self

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Speaker 2: worth or confront something in an interpersonal relationship or an

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Speaker 2: inner conflict with self that's going to help them either

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Speaker 2: strengthen their sense of self worth or self abandoned. So

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Speaker 2: this is how I think about like the curation of

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Speaker 2: my sessions, but those are my three p's. So we

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Speaker 2: got the presenting problem, the preferences of the reader, and

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Speaker 2: then the book prescription.

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Speaker 1: Love that as you were talking, it made me think,

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Speaker 1: would like assigning a film to watch our something fall

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Speaker 1: under bibliotherapy or is there some other creative arts therapy

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Speaker 1: that wouldn't necessarily be bibliotherapy but it would definitely be

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Speaker 1: creative arts therapy, a creative words? Got it? Got it? Okay,

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Speaker 1: tell us more about like how we find these people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's several organizations that provide like courses, webinars

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Speaker 2: and things like that. But if you want to be

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Speaker 2: credentialed and biblio therapy, there's different pathways you can take

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Speaker 2: depending on what you want to be credentialed. As for me,

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Speaker 2: I went through the International Federation of biblio Poetry Therapy.

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Speaker 2: I write a lot about this in my book because

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Speaker 2: I again want this method to be accessible and people

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Speaker 2: to honor the ways that they've engaged with it. And

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Speaker 2: I feel like our society is just super obsessed with credentialism,

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Speaker 2: and I want people to know, like you're probably already

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Speaker 2: using biblio therapy. You don't need a credential, right, But

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Speaker 2: also if you want to be further trained, if you

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Speaker 2: want to engage in a community of professionals who do

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Speaker 2: this work, you can tap in with the International Federation

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Speaker 2: of Biblio Poetry Therapy, the National Association of Poetry Therapy, which.

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Speaker 1: I'm a member of. I love being a member there.

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Speaker 2: Because they have weekly workshops and I haven't been able

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Speaker 2: to attend any in person gatherings because I have two

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Speaker 2: small children and childcare.

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Speaker 1: Be hard to come back. But it's great to just

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Speaker 1: be connected to other professionals who are poetry therapists and

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Speaker 1: bibliotherapists because you end up sharing techniques and resources, and

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Speaker 1: so that's sort of the path that I've been on.

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Speaker 1: But to be perfectly frank with you, I decided not

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Speaker 1: to continue to complete my training because I feel like

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Speaker 1: the time, money, and resources that I was spending towards

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Speaker 1: this path just didn't align with where I'm at in

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Speaker 1: my life.

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Speaker 2: And I have a small child with a disability, and

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Speaker 2: my baby girl is for and I just see after

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Speaker 2: writing my book, I just see like things very differently.

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Speaker 2: So I'm taking the path.

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Speaker 1: We're going to see where this goes.

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Speaker 2: But I just want to encourage people that you can

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Speaker 2: use this method. You're probably already using this method, whether

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Speaker 2: or not you're credentialed, if you're someone who loves literature,

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Speaker 2: if you're a clinician who loves literature, just bringing into

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Speaker 2: the therapy room, right, because we all develop our own

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Speaker 2: unique style and our own unique way of engaging with texts,

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Speaker 2: and that's really what it's about, is creating a bridge

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Speaker 2: from the therapy room to the client's personal life and

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Speaker 2: really helping them to use their strengths as readers, because

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Speaker 2: readers have so many strengths, being so deeply thoughtful, self reflective,

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Speaker 2: value in personal de development, and so there's so many

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Speaker 2: different ways that training could look. But all in while,

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Speaker 2: you don't need it to engage in this practice, you're

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Speaker 2: probably doing it already, got it, And.

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00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 1: I'm sure your book will also be a helpful resource

436
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,120
Speaker 1: for people who were wanting to do more of this,

437
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 1: as you mentioned.

438
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, I got a lot of actually everything's in

439
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 2: the book, all my tips tricks, I've got a lot

440
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 2: of contributions from clients as well. Fact that Lauren Shabon,

441
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 2: she's a professor at Smith College School for Social Work

442
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 2: and a really dear friend of mine. She wrote this

443
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 2: gorgeous reflection on using kis le Mont's long division as

444
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,200
Speaker 2: an affirmation practice. The main character in that fictional book, Sitoyen,

445
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 2: has like a list of ten things that he tells

446
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 2: himself as he's time traveling, and she rewrote it for

447
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 2: her own personal biblio therapeutic practice, and it was so

448
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 2: beautiful the way that she rewrites the affirmations from her

449
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 2: lens and then she creates a little insight for a

450
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 2: reader to engage in the practice for themselves.

451
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: So the book is jam packed full.

452
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,200
Speaker 2: Of things like that, and I feel like people who

453
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 2: are super bookish are going to love that, and therapists

454
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 2: are really gonna enjoy making these strategies their own.

455
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can already see how people are going to

456
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,679
Speaker 1: be using it, and thank you for that. So I

457
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 1: have a couple of scenarios that I want to offer

458
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: to you and see if you can suggest maybe some

459
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 1: books that you might prescribe a client or somebody in

460
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 1: that community who would be interested in learning more So,

461
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 1: the first one is somebody who's having a post breakup

462
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: of a long term relationship or a friendship.

463
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 2: Honestly, I feel like, your book has so many gems

464
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 2: in it in terms of understanding when a relationship is over.

465
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 2: I know that it's about sisterhood, but it really provides

466
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 2: such insight for readers on how do you determine when

467
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 2: the relationship is over? Like, how do you know when

468
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 2: it's time to say goodbye? And how do you make

469
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 2: peace with that? And how do you not allow the

470
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 2: grief and the disappointment of that to leak into the

471
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: relationships you forged next? So I would definitely recommends your book,

472
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 2: and I need to look up the title for this

473
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 2: next one because I often recommend your book and tandem

474
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 2: with I think it's called Fighting for Our Friendships. Yes,

475
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 2: it's Comfighting for Danielle Ships, Yes Danielle. But y'ard Jackson

476
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,360
Speaker 2: absolutely phenomenal book. Another book that really focuses on female

477
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 2: friendships but provides so much context for readers.

478
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: To really look at.

479
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 2: I just feel like books that contextualize advice based on

480
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 2: your unique values, identity, and circumstances are really valuable.

481
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 1: So your book and Danielle's book are really great tools

482
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: for that. What about someone looking to tap into their creativity,

483
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 1: possibly feeling depressed or uninspired.

484
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 2: Ooh, I love. I think it's called another one. I

485
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 2: got to look up Rick Rubin's new book. Oh the

486
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 2: way of Something, isn't it.

487
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: The creative act? Yes, it's the creative act, a way

488
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 1: of being. You're good, you have a real say are

489
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,959
Speaker 1: you out here? I have a photographing memory. I can

490
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: see the title, but I don't always know the full bing.

491
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: I'd love to do a reading and take with you,

492
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 1: because I'm sure when you're reading, your mind is probably

493
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: creating so many rich images. For sure. For sure, I'm like,

494
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 1: all these characters look nothing like when you see like

495
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,199
Speaker 1: a movie that's made from a book. It's this is

496
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 1: not how I picture character. Okay, so Rick Rubin's book.

497
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 1: And then the third one is somebody who's looking to

498
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: add more routine or structure to their life.

499
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 2: Atomic Habits. Atomic Habits because literally it's so rich in tools,

500
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 2: but also in storytelling, like I've probably never read a

501
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 2: self help book that just gathered me together from page one,

502
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 2: like the way he just hooks the reader.

503
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 1: You cannot stop reading. Atomic Habits is such a good book.

504
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So I do

505
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: want to spend some more time there with particular titles

506
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: and talk a little bit more about how self help

507
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: books it feels like definitely have proliferated readers, right, It

508
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: does feel like there's a large amount out there. I

509
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 1: think some of them have been controversial, right, So something

510
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 1: like a rich dad, poor dad, or act like a woman,

511
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 1: think like a man, and that's a od right, that

512
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: has been around for some time that I don't see

513
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: on lists as much, but I feel like there's a

514
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 1: lot of conversation around those. Do you think that sometimes

515
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: self help books can actually cause more harm than they

516
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 1: can be helpful.

517
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 2: I absolutely do, because I think so many of them

518
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 2: are written and lack cultural relevancy and feed into this

519
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:46,719
Speaker 2: narrative of people being broken if they can't perform a

520
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 2: certain way or if things don't look a particular way.

521
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 2: Like I stay away from any self help book that

522
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 2: kind of pushes a very stringent framework on a reader,

523
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 2: because I think we already do that ourselves. So any

524
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 2: kind of self help book that doesn't honor that we

525
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 2: are human beings with living, intersectional experiences that have different

526
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 2: realities based on those intersectionalized, marginalized aspects of self, I'm

527
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 2: not interested.

528
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: I always love when I read a book and the

529
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 1: writer from.

530
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: Jump introduces who they are, who their audience is, and

531
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 2: who the book is best for, but also privileges that

532
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 2: anybody coming to the text can glean insight. Just keep

533
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 2: these things in mind, right, Like, keep in mind that

534
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 2: this is a decolonial book. Keep in mind that if

535
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 2: you are someone who identifies as fill in the blank,

536
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 2: this might not apply to you. But I hope you

537
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 2: can still gather some insight and make some meaningful connections anyway. Like,

538
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 2: I really value that kind of language because I feel

539
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 2: like self help should be a conversation with the reader.

540
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 2: There shouldn't be something that's very like prescriptive or that

541
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: ads are like need to compare or pressure on a reader,

542
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: because we already have that in our society.

543
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: We do that to each other. We judge ourselves, we

544
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: judge each other.

545
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 2: And I think what I've observed about clients who are

546
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 2: bibliophiles and avid readers is like we tend to gravitate

547
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 2: towards books because we're so afraid of getting it wrong

548
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: or saying it wrong. So a lot of times a

549
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 2: reader like that picks up self help because they want

550
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: to feel like they won't get it wrong.

551
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: But really we all get it wrong. That's the point.

552
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 2: Like we're human beings having a human experience. We're always

553
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 2: going to get it wrong. Let's use the book as

554
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: a tool to help foster connection to sell and to

555
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 2: one another, not as like a tool for judgment.

556
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: So I want to hear more. As you were talking earlier, Emily,

557
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: and you were talking about needing to make sure as

558
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: you're prescribing books like of the content, that you wouldn't

559
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,239
Speaker 1: choose a certain book for a certain client depending on

560
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: what they're going through. It made me think of like

561
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: the tech that therapists are often recommending, And I feel

562
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: like there has recently been some concern about what's the

563
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: book the body right? So I see that as a

564
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: book that as a clinician, I think makes some sense

565
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: and like I think, you know, our training allows us

566
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: to engage with that text in a way that is

567
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: different from maybe somebody who has not had that training.

568
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: But it did make me think, as you were talking,

569
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: like this feels like one of those books that you

570
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: have to be very careful with. Can you talk about

571
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: maybe that book and others that you think therapists want

572
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: to be mindful of as absolutely I'm.

573
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 2: So glad you brought that up, because The Body Keeps

574
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: the Score is a hot topic still right because years

575
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: later it's divides the community, the reading community, and the

576
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: clinician community. I think that a lot of the issue

577
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 2: is that it's not accessible. So if you're not someone

578
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: who understands much about the nervous systemmer brain science, you know,

579
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,479
Speaker 2: you're not going to like pick up that book and

580
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: just read with ease and be able to really make

581
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 2: meaningful connections. There's a lot of jargon in the book.

582
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 2: There's a lot of academic language in the book. It

583
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: reads like an academic text, but also there's no context

584
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 2: for the way that the social political aspects of our

585
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 2: life experiences and our society impact on nervous system. And

586
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 2: so if you are, if you're someone in Gaza right now,

587
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: right while the bombing is going on, and you pick

588
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 2: up The Body Keeps the Score, is that really going

589
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 2: to help you feel affirmed? No, because there's no context

590
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 2: provided in that book that says that there's something to

591
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 2: be said for our geopolitical landscape and how that affects us.

592
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 2: There's something to be said for the way that politics

593
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 2: write poverty, Like I understand why people have a problem

594
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: with the book. I don't think that we should throw

595
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: the book away, right Like, I also find that in

596
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 2: some of these very divisive conversations, were quick to just

597
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 2: want to like cast someone out or say well, there's

598
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: no good in it, and that's not necessarily true. I

599
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 2: have clients who brought the book to me in therapy

600
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: and said, hey, Emily, like, I'm reading this book and

601
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 2: it's making me think about this, and We've had a

602
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 2: really rich session or few sessions based around something that

603
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: a client read in that book. So I'm always open

604
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 2: to engaging with whatever a client wants to bring into

605
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 2: the therapy room. I just think that books like The

606
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 2: Body Keeps the Score aren't accessible to everyone, and that's

607
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 2: you know, that's a problem.

608
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: Other others that come to mind for you that you

609
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: have found like divisive for both the therapists community and

610
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: the reading community. And you got more.

611
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 2: Time because if you notice, on my platforms, I don't

612
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 2: feature books that I don't use and therapy sometimes I'll

613
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: get that feedback like how about tell us books not

614
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 2: to recommend? And why I'm like, I hear you, but

615
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 2: like that's not the energy that I want to use

616
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 2: my platform for I'd rather spend it amplifying books that

617
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 2: I do use. But there are several Right, White Fragility

618
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 2: is very controversial, right because she doesn't cite Black women,

619
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 2: she doesn't cite the indigenous scholars and the resources that

620
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 2: she's pulling the literature from. Anytime somebody is writing a

621
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 2: text that doesn't honor the knowledge and the historical ground

622
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 2: that their ideas are founded upon is a major issue.

623
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: And it's not just with that book. There's several books

624
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: written by white authors who do not cite, especially black women.

625
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: We have a big issue in literature with like not

626
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: citing black women, and that's a problem. And shout out

627
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: to Ebani Jinny's Moore because all her work is really

628
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: centered around calling that out.

629
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: I work with a lot of white women who really

630
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 2: that's the first thing they want to talk about is

631
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 2: white fragility, And I'm like.

632
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: There are so many other books that are much better.

633
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: But okay, if this is going to be the entry

634
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: point to bibliotherapy with you, we'll work it out, you.

635
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: Know, But that one immediately comes to mind. Yeah, So

636
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: as you're talking about that, it made me think of

637
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: book talk right in the ways that it really has

638
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: increased readers and you know, brought new authors into the space.

639
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: What do you have to say about like book talk

640
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: and like the way that mental health literature I think

641
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: specifically has become the rise for people and you know,

642
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: introduce new readers to the genre in ways like we

643
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:06,719
Speaker 1: just talked about with a body Keusa Spory that like

644
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: not all books for therapists are meant for like a

645
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: general reading audience.

646
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 2: First of all, I love any book community that provides

647
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 2: a space for readers to connect and to grow and

648
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 2: to share ideas. I think it gets messy online, which

649
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 2: is another part that I love about your book, because

650
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: you talk about sisterhood and the digital age and how

651
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 2: we should show up online for each other. I think

652
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: you said praise publicly, criticized privately, and I love that

653
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 2: because it's usually the opposite that for sure, where we

654
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 2: have such strong ideas about our books and the books

655
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 2: that we connect to and when somebody disagrees, now it's

656
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 2: like a full on fight. One of my favorite creators,

657
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: she's a black woman in her fifties. I love her

658
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 2: content so much. She put up a video recently on

659
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: BookTalk just saying like, look, maybe it's because I'm old

660
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: and I'm just like, I handle things differently. But she

661
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 2: was like, these spaces are sacred spaces for our community.

662
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 2: Let's stop biting each other's heads off. Let's engage in

663
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 2: a dialogue. If somebody thinks about something differently than you,

664
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 2: let's be curious. Ask them why, ask them about the

665
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 2: life experience that they bring to a text. I think

666
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 2: we want community so bad. We're so isolated, especially those

667
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: of us that prefer to be at home reading, and

668
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 2: then we have these rich, thriving spaces where we get

669
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: to show up and just share a little bit.

670
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 1: About our reading life.

671
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 2: And so when it goes left, it just puts a

672
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 2: zamper on everybody's party, right, Like now people feel like, well, dang,

673
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: I don't want to share, I don't want to show up,

674
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 2: or I'm not as articulate right, or I don't have

675
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 2: all the fancy microphones and spotlight and you know, to

676
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 2: show and.

677
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: It's like, no, girl, just show up. Tell us what

678
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: you're reading.

679
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 2: I want to know because we are getting increasingly more

680
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 2: and more isolated, and people are super lonely and depressed.

681
00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 2: And so while these communities are thriving and useful and

682
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 2: necessary and can be really healing. It can go left

683
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 2: really quick when we jump into judgment and we lack curiosity.

684
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 1: So that's why I worry for us.

685
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 2: But I'm just grateful that these communities exist because every

686
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 2: now and then you have somebody like my friend who

687
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 2: raises the vibration by just showing up and being like, hey,

688
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 2: y'all tripping, Let's get back to the books.

689
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: Hey, let's get back to you. So, what are some

690
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: suggestions you have in really for how people can vet books? Right? So,

691
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,959
Speaker 1: we know some books are based on like credible mental

692
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 1: health information and others is like pseudoscience, and it's not

693
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: always easy to tell which is which. Do you have

694
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: any suggestions for how readers can vet books? I think

695
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: you need to know who you're reading.

696
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 2: So you know, we live in a society right now

697
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 2: where everybody is saying that they're a short clinician. I'm

698
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 2: not someone that's super insue credentialism and things like that.

699
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 2: I believe lived experience is important and just as worthwhile,

700
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 2: and I want to hear from.

701
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: People who have lived experience. But I also think when

702
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: you have somebody.

703
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: Positioning themselves as an expert who actually isn't. That's dangerous,

704
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 2: even folks who maybe were licensed but got their license

705
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 2: revoked from malpractice talking about they do it this way.

706
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 2: That's not the person I want to hear from.

707
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: Sir, unless you're telling me that also you made this

708
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: mistake and this misstep and this is how you fear right.

709
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 2: So like, we live in a culture where it's just

710
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 2: what people say goes. So no bet the person that

711
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 2: you're reading, know who you're reading, know what lens they're

712
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 2: writing from is very important. I recently finished The Message,

713
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 2: written by Tannah See Colts, a brilliant book and just

714
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 2: a very useful tool for dialogue around considering who is

715
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 2: telling the story and what is their motivation and is

716
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 2: this narrative truthful or is it one that has an

717
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,280
Speaker 2: agenda to harm.

718
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: When we think.

719
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: About who has the platform to tell certain stories, it's

720
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 2: often based upon who's got the power and the money

721
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 2: to tell the story. So really making sure that the

722
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 2: person that you're reading is sharing very transparently who they are,

723
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 2: what they're about, what their values are, who their audience is.

724
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: Always check the references the first thing I will do,

725
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 2: especially if it's a nonfiction text, especially if it's around

726
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 2: black mental health. I need to make sure that the

727
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 2: author is black, and I need to go check your

728
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 2: reference list and make sure that you're citing other black

729
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 2: psychologists and clinicians in the field, because you're not going

730
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 2: to write a book on black psychology and you ain't

731
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 2: a black psychologist and all your references are Freudian and we're.

732
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: Not doing that.

733
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 2: So I feel like just knowing you know, know who

734
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 2: you're reading, know who they're citing, make sure they're citing,

735
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: and make sure that the writer is transparent, because I

736
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 2: feel like we're also living in a time where people

737
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 2: are afraid to write because they're afraid to say the

738
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: wrong thing.

739
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:52,399
Speaker 1: Or maybe feeling why.

740
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 2: I'm not an expert, but that's great. Those are the

741
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,720
Speaker 2: kind of books I want to read. You're not an expert,

742
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,919
Speaker 2: tell us why you wrote the book and what you've

743
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 2: learned that.

744
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: Made you want to share what you're sharing with us.

745
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: I love reading books like that.

746
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 2: I want to read books written by real people, not experts.

747
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, So, how do

748
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: you help your clients to engage with health help things

749
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: critically and in a healthy way? Right? Because you already

750
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: mentioned like this temptation to feel like we're broken and

751
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:33,879
Speaker 1: like this book is going to be the thing that

752
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: fixes me. How do you help clients to manage that?

753
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think really engaging responsibly with mental health

754
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 2: literature means one knowing that it's not a replacement for therapy, right, Like,

755
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 2: the book is a tool for the process. It's a

756
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: powerful tool for insight, it's a powerful tool for guidance,

757
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 2: for structuring the therapy, for engaging in a conversation with

758
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 2: your therapists, because we forget that therapy is about the

759
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 2: relationship between the and the client, but a lot of

760
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 2: us don't know how to be in relationship, and a

761
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 2: lot of us come into therapy feeling very on edge.

762
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,839
Speaker 2: If you haven't had anyone ever take an interest in

763
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: you and hey, tell me about yourself. Now you have

764
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 2: a therapist in front of you asking you all these

765
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 2: personal questions, and you're like, dang, this is really uncomfortable,

766
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 2: and we can like tense up, freeze up. Those defenses

767
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 2: go up real quick. So I think books are powerful

768
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,280
Speaker 2: tools to help with the process. I encourage my clients

769
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: to read with curiosity, not pressure, especially if you're reading

770
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 2: self help or a mental health book. Just use the

771
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 2: book to inspire exploration. You read something and you think,

772
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 2: do I agree with this or do I disagree with this?

773
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 2: And what ways has this landed for me in my life?

774
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 2: And in what ways does this not land for me

775
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 2: at all? Now we can get curious about why not

776
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 2: right as a black woman, as a black Puerto Rican woman,

777
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 2: I've definitely read books feminist texts, especially where I'm like, yeah,

778
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 2: this hain't hey for me, right, It's very clear this

779
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 2: ain't for me. Suddenly I pick up a woman's text

780
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh wow, Like I remember going through

781
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 2: that awakening in my twenties where now I'm reading about

782
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 2: women's theology and I can actually see myself in my

783
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 2: womanhood in the text that opened up a whole new

784
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 2: world for me, right to really center my feminism in

785
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 2: my black womanhood, And what does that mean for me?

786
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 2: What did that mean for me to me and in

787
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 2: me and in my mother and in my grandmother and

788
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 2: in my great grandmother. Also, I think decoding, how can

789
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 2: I explain it? Like sometimes with mental health literature, we're

790
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 2: kind of like given like actionable steps that make it

791
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 2: seem like if you do these things then you're fixed

792
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 2: or these are the steps for a one size fits

793
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 2: all solution, And I think that can be dangerous because

794
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 2: it doesn't read like an invitation to reflect, explore an experiment.

795
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 2: So if we buy into this notion of like, well,

796
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 2: these are the steps, but it's not working for me,

797
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 2: so what's wrong with me? Then girl, don't read the

798
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: book because that's not how you should be engaging with

799
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 2: mental health literature. Use it instead as a mayror right

800
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 2: like factor routine. Sims Bishop, who's known as like the

801
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 2: multicultural Children's literature Queen, she talks about books as being mayrors,

802
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 2: windows and sliding doors. So that's how I like to

803
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 2: tell my clients to approach their reading practice. It's like

804
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 2: we're reading books to turn in word and to self reflect.

805
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 2: We're reading books to take a little sneak peek into

806
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 2: someone else's window and see what they're up to and

807
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,240
Speaker 2: understand what it's like in somebody else's shoes and sliding

808
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 2: doors where we get to kind of step into a

809
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 2: character's shoes and experience life through their lens and their

810
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 2: intersectional experience, but never to judge, Like the goal is

811
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 2: always to just allow a feeling response to happen to

812
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 2: have fun with it, right, Like I love that in

813
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 2: the book community we've got like book boyfriends and we've

814
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 2: got our favorite tropes. Because really, all of psychology is

815
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 2: our typle. So when we start engaging this way and

816
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 2: when we consider our interiority, there's just so much that

817
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,760
Speaker 2: a therapist can do with that. We're not actively aware

818
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 2: of the archetypes and the symbols that speak to us

819
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,399
Speaker 2: or that we're drawn too. And I think that's really

820
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 2: important because it's about ancestral veneration as well. Like I'll

821
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 2: never forget the first time I had a reading done

822
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 2: with a spiritual teacher. She was asking about my dreams

823
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 2: and I was telling her like, since I was little,

824
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 2: I would always have wear wolves in my dreams, right,

825
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 2: And she was like, well, that's your African American ancestors.

826
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 2: You know, you grew up a changed from your dad

827
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 2: and your family. But she was like, what would it

828
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 2: be like for you to consider that that every time

829
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 2: a wolf appears in your dreams, it's representative of your

830
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 2: black ancestors. I'm like wow, that was like, oh, and

831
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 2: ever since then, I see wolves everywhere now, like wolf everything.

832
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 2: Even my daughter like sometimes I'll just find her watching

833
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 2: cartoons and she's looking up wolves on YouTube, and I'm like, right, Like,

834
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 2: that's a very spiritual aspect and an archetype that's been

835
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 2: rich in my interior world since I was a little girl.

836
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 2: So spirit speaks to us in different ways science, symbols

837
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: and synchronicities.

838
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: So I'm not just a biblio therapist. I'm a spiritual therapist.

839
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 2: And I feel like those two things go hand in

840
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 2: hand in the work. That's a long ones that answered.

841
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,959
Speaker 1: I love I love that you are talking about because

842
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: I think most people would think about like, I find

843
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 1: myself really drawn to this trope. I don't know why,

844
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: but there is a reason why, right, And so a way,

845
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: that's what really was really powerful about your work is

846
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: that it can help to connect. Like you think it

847
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: feels very mindless and mundane, but it actually isn't. What

848
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: is it actually saying about your interior world? That's right? Yeah? Yeah,

849
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,240
Speaker 1: So what responsibility do you think the publishing industry has

850
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: to support more diverse voices in mental health? Literature?

851
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 2: Publishing has a US responsibility and they are not doing enough.

852
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: They're not doing enough. I don't even want to get out.

853
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 2: My soul box here because every time a black woman

854
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 2: her negative experiences, we're seen as being negative. But it's

855
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 2: not negative. The reality of it is is that I'm

856
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 2: a licensed clinical social worker, a permanently licensed school social worker.

857
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 2: I've been in the field for over fifteen years. I'm

858
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 2: coming out with a book. I get books every day.

859
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 2: I promote them for free if I think my community

860
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 2: could benefit for them. I have only ever been paid

861
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 2: for three opportunities, which I've always announced as public sponsorships,

862
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 2: and each of those opportunities has come from a black

863
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 2: woman in publishing.

864
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 1: There are white men, mediocre.

865
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 2: Creators, and I'm gonna just leave it at that, who

866
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:47,879
Speaker 2: have literally a platform of thousands of followers, who don't

867
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 2: do near as much as I do, who are getting

868
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 2: paid like I think most recently, and this is someone

869
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 2: who I greatly adore, white man creator.

870
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: But Sweetheart, good friend of mine, he got paid.

871
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: I think he said fourteen hundred dollars for one book

872
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 2: post to create a reel on Instagram. That blew my mind.

873
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: I went home and cried back to Joy because it

874
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 2: broke my heart. I was like, you know what fourteen

875
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 2: hundred dollars could do for me? And my family for

876
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 2: my practice. You know how much I could do to

877
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 2: provide free therapy to the teenagers I console with fourteen

878
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 2: hundred dollars. This man has like not even half of

879
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,479
Speaker 2: the platform that I have because he started out later.

880
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 2: He's a wonderful man again, but like fourteen hundred dollars

881
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 2: for Instagram reeal for real. And I had to really

882
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,839
Speaker 2: like sit with that with spirit because I didn't want

883
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 2: to become resentful. But I just didn't know that certain

884
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 2: creators were getting paid at that level. And then on

885
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 2: the flip side of that, I know women of color

886
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 2: who have bought for their platforms, have huge platforms, do

887
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,439
Speaker 2: amazing work, and they will only promote books if they're

888
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 2: getting paid.

889
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 1: And then they get judged for it because as it's.

890
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 2: Seen as not being you know, not passing the baton

891
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 2: to the next person or using their status or social

892
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 2: influence within publishing and within the book community to help

893
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 2: others come up.

894
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:12,439
Speaker 1: But I get it.

895
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 2: I also get that and not saying gatekeeping is right

896
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 2: because I'm not going to gatekeep. I always uplift the

897
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 2: sisters who come to me, and I provide a lot

898
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 2: of free education where I.

899
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: Can for people but I get it.

900
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 2: I get why a sister would be burnt out doing

901
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 2: this work and feeling unappreciated and getting to a point

902
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 2: where they say.

903
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,760
Speaker 1: You know what, you're paying that man fourteen hundred dollars

904
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: for a pose. You need to pay me the.

905
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 2: Same thing, or I'm not going to promote the book.

906
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 2: But then what does that do to our community? Because

907
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 2: we have so many amazing writers and readers who need

908
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 2: to read those writers and indie authors who decide to

909
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 2: do it on their own who also want to get

910
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 2: discovered and deserve to be discovered because they're doing amazing

911
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 2: work in our community. So I always, like, again within

912
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 2: the legacy of that CDP Dison Delaney, remind myself that

913
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 2: like my abundance and my opportunities and my gifts come

914
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 2: from spirit, not from publishing. But that's just one example

915
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:15,760
Speaker 2: of like the disparities and how book influencers are treated

916
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,800
Speaker 2: in some of the gaps based on if you're a

917
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 2: creator of color or not. And I know this extends

918
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 2: way beyond the book community, but it matters to me

919
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 2: in the book community because we have a president coming

920
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:31,760
Speaker 2: into office who literally wants to prevent more diverse books

921
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 2: from being published. With book banning on the rise and

922
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 2: our society and all of the ways that marginalized authors

923
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 2: have to just fight to get a book deal. It's

924
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,800
Speaker 2: a big societal issue. I feel like it's a mental

925
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 2: health and social justice issue. So the fact that publishing

926
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 2: doesn't do more to amplify diverse, BIPAC book creators is

927
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 2: a big problem. It feels like that is one of

928
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 2: the issues.

929
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 1: And then the other, as you mentioned, is you know

930
00:47:57,840 --> 00:47:59,959
Speaker 1: we've talked about like, okay, who is this book written?

931
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: Like publishing also acts as a gatekeeping place for other

932
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 1: diverse voices to be out there sharing information, right because

933
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: you know how hard it is to even get a

934
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: book deal, and then fighting to get the book to

935
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 1: write the book that you want to write for your community,

936
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: as opposed to with the publishing company, things will sell.

937
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 1: That's another part of it, exactly.

938
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 2: And I'm very fortunate because one thing I love about

939
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 2: row House they give you half of your advance upfront.

940
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 2: So my book would have never been written if I

941
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,439
Speaker 2: didn't sign with Rowhouse because I got two kids, one

942
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 2: with a disability and a full time private practice.

943
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,720
Speaker 1: When was I going to be able to write? Rowhouse

944
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: giving me half of my advance upfront meant that I

945
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: was able to lighten the load on me work wise

946
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: so that I could write.

947
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 2: That's huge. They gave me an editor. I still hired

948
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 2: an editor myself outside of Rowhouse, but the fact that

949
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 2: they provides you with an editor. Their contract is public,

950
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 2: so you could go to their website right now and

951
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 2: download row House's book contract. Anybody can see it before

952
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 2: you decide to submit your manuscript to them. And I

953
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 2: know that they've also had their own challenges, right They've

954
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 2: paid for being such a social justice oriented in the

955
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 2: small publishing house, but that doesn't stop them from publishing

956
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 2: diverse books, especially black women writers. And I'm always going

957
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 2: to thank ro A House for that because I know

958
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 2: that my book wouldn't have been able to be born

959
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 2: without them seeing the vision, honoring the vision, and like

960
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 2: providing me the resources that I needed.

961
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 1: To write the book. And we are also grateful. I'm very,

962
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 1: very proud of my colicsher. So where can we say

963
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 1: in touch with you? Emily? Where can we grab a

964
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: copy of the book, and what is your website as

965
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 1: well as any social media handles you'd like to share?

966
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I'm at literapy l t e r ap Underscore

967
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 2: NYC on all socials. My website is Academy dot LITERAPYNYC

968
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 2: dot com. And my book A Bibliotherapy in the Bronx

969
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 2: that comes out April twenty ninth, twenty twenty five, and

970
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,720
Speaker 2: you can pre order on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, Simon

971
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 2: and Schuster's website Books a Million. I always say, like,

972
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 2: if you go Barnes and Noble, that's always best, because

973
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: I didn't know this until now. If you're a debut

974
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 2: author and your book is coming out in hardcover, you're

975
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 2: less likely to be picked up by Barnes and Noble

976
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 2: unless you have a large number of pre orders. And

977
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 2: I didn't know that, so I did know. If y'all

978
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 2: want my book in Barnes and Noble, pre order from

979
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 2: them and your local indie. You know, go into your

980
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 2: local indie, share about my book, request it from your

981
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 2: libraries so that by the time pub day is here,

982
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 2: you know you can get a copy. I'm excited for

983
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 2: everybody to get the book in hand. And you know,

984
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 2: if you can't pre order, that's okay too. Request it

985
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 2: from your local library. When it releases on April twenty nine,

986
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. I love the library and we have

987
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 2: to fight and protect our library.

988
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Emily. We will be sure to

989
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 1: include all that in our show notes. Thank you for

990
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,359
Speaker 1: tuening some time with me today. Absolutely, thank you doac

991
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 1: to Joey, I appreciate you absolutely. I'm so glad Emily

992
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,439
Speaker 1: was able to join me for this conversation. To learn

993
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,919
Speaker 1: more about her and her work, or to grab your

994
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:13,879
Speaker 1: copy of Bibiliotherapy in the Bronx, be sure to visit

995
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,479
Speaker 1: the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash

996
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: Session four oh nine, and don't forget to text two

997
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: of your girls right now and tell them to check

998
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 1: out the episode. Did you know that you could leave

999
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: us a voicemail or share your questions for the podcast.

1000
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: If you want to suggest movies or books for us

1001
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 1: to review, or if you have thoughts about topics you'd

1002
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: like to hear discussed, drop us a message at Memo

1003
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 1: dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls. Let us know

1004
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 1: what's on your mind. We just might answer it on

1005
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area,

1006
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 1: visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com

1007
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 1: slash directory this episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indechubu

1008
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:56,399
Speaker 1: and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank

1009
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 1: y'all so much for joining me again this week. I

1010
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 1: look forward to continue this conversation with you all real soon.

1011
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 1: Take good care what