WEBVTT - Frankenfood | The Mistakes Series 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:20.556 --> 0:00:24.276 So I went to California at your behest? 0:00:24.796 --> 0:00:27.756 Did I wish? Because first of all. 0:00:28.276 --> 0:00:30.036 I know you wish that you had been there yourself, 0:00:30.036 --> 0:00:31.836 because this is your favorite place. 0:00:31.996 --> 0:00:35.956 This is one really hurt and I'm. 0:00:35.996 --> 0:00:38.276 We should just say where we're talking about, Okay. 0:00:38.356 --> 0:00:43.316 So I sent you Ben on a mission because I 0:00:43.316 --> 0:00:47.396 couldn't go because my wife would leave me if I 0:00:47.436 --> 0:00:51.276 took one more trip, basically, and so with a heavy heart, 0:00:51.396 --> 0:00:54.556 I handed the reins to one of my favorite places 0:00:54.596 --> 0:00:59.836 in America, which is the food lab at Matson Madson 0:00:59.996 --> 0:01:03.916 is like Madison's like the R and D. If you 0:01:04.116 --> 0:01:05.916 if you were a food company in America and you 0:01:05.956 --> 0:01:09.436 want to do something new or cool, you maybe tried 0:01:09.476 --> 0:01:11.596 in your own lab, but mostly what you do is 0:01:11.636 --> 0:01:15.316 you pick up the phone and you call Matson out 0:01:15.316 --> 0:01:17.156 of the Bay Area and you say, can you make 0:01:17.236 --> 0:01:20.716 me and fill in the blanks the most delicious potato 0:01:20.796 --> 0:01:24.676 chip that also prices you know, is priced under X. 0:01:25.036 --> 0:01:27.436 Or got Like the walls, the walls are lined with 0:01:27.516 --> 0:01:31.036 like a pantry shelf of just like every product you've 0:01:31.036 --> 0:01:35.116 ever had and enjoyed, and like they're like Phrensias on there. 0:01:35.676 --> 0:01:38.116 It's just like all the hits, things that I can't 0:01:38.116 --> 0:01:40.356 even mention because they're nbaight are on the walls. 0:01:40.396 --> 0:01:42.196 Oh my god. It's like if you walk through a 0:01:42.196 --> 0:01:45.236 grocery store after going to Matson, you're like, Oh, that's Matson. Oh, 0:01:45.356 --> 0:01:48.796 that's Matson. Oh, and you realize my diet is basically Matson. 0:01:51.516 --> 0:01:53.396 I interviewed two people out there who you know, of 0:01:53.436 --> 0:01:57.996 course from other Revisionist history episodes. Steve Gundrum, their chief 0:01:58.036 --> 0:02:00.236 AI officer, who was at the time of our first 0:02:00.276 --> 0:02:03.556 mistake the CEO and knows everything about why we like 0:02:03.636 --> 0:02:04.276 what we do. 0:02:04.516 --> 0:02:08.676 And carro Cake became a phenomenon at first because of 0:02:08.676 --> 0:02:08.916 the air. 0:02:09.956 --> 0:02:13.796 And Barbara Stuckey, their chief New Product strategy officer, who's 0:02:13.796 --> 0:02:16.276 an old hand on revisionist and is just a font 0:02:16.316 --> 0:02:18.756 of amazing tales from the Matson archives. 0:02:18.996 --> 0:02:22.676 In the case of this, the challenge was if you've 0:02:22.716 --> 0:02:27.556 ever opened a pomegranate, it's not exactly you can't squeeze 0:02:27.596 --> 0:02:28.316 the pomegranate. 0:02:29.596 --> 0:02:33.556 Like I've really met someone who is clearly so psyched 0:02:33.556 --> 0:02:35.116 to go to work everyone, did you get that sensor? 0:02:35.356 --> 0:02:37.956 She's she was so pumped it was I found it 0:02:38.196 --> 0:02:41.516 so delightful. She's so excited and like a in a 0:02:41.596 --> 0:02:44.876 true believer in this amazing sense in what they do. 0:02:45.276 --> 0:02:47.956 I want. I wanted to take my when they're old enough, 0:02:48.076 --> 0:02:51.836 take my two daughters out to the Bay Area, and 0:02:52.436 --> 0:02:54.836 I want Barbed to do a version of take your 0:02:54.916 --> 0:02:57.516 daughter to work day, only we take my daughter's to 0:02:57.596 --> 0:03:00.516 work day. I'm I want my daughters to observe what 0:03:00.636 --> 0:03:08.436 it means to be psyched about your job. So I said, 0:03:08.476 --> 0:03:10.956 you out there now, Now, why ben you tell us 0:03:11.556 --> 0:03:13.316 what was? Why did I send you bout there? 0:03:13.836 --> 0:03:17.156 So you sent me out there because you had reached 0:03:17.156 --> 0:03:22.116 out to Barb about a mistake that has loomed very 0:03:22.276 --> 0:03:26.836 large over the entire food industry that she wanted to 0:03:26.876 --> 0:03:33.796 tell us about. And so the story is basically, Barb, 0:03:34.076 --> 0:03:36.036 who's more excited than anyone you've ever met to go 0:03:36.036 --> 0:03:39.116 to work every day, is going to work in twenty eighteen, 0:03:39.516 --> 0:03:43.476 twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen area and is at a conference 0:03:44.356 --> 0:03:47.596 where she comes face to face with the future of 0:03:47.636 --> 0:03:52.676 the food industry and then realizes that the food industry 0:03:53.076 --> 0:03:56.476 is about to commit Harry Carey on a much broader 0:03:56.516 --> 0:03:59.436 scale than even McDonald's, and she has to try and 0:03:59.516 --> 0:04:03.876 stop it and So it is the story of two mistakes. 0:04:04.476 --> 0:04:06.836 The first one a mistake that we made in the nineties, 0:04:07.076 --> 0:04:09.636 and the second one a mistake that Barb is trying 0:04:09.636 --> 0:04:17.036 to stop us from making. Today. Welcome to revisionist History. 0:04:17.316 --> 0:04:20.796 I'm Ben Mattapaffrey, and in this our final episode of 0:04:20.836 --> 0:04:24.116 the Mistake series, Malcolm sends me out to California to 0:04:24.196 --> 0:04:28.116 the pantheon of food science, the Hallot Halls of Matson. 0:04:28.916 --> 0:04:31.196 It's a place you may remember from way back in 0:04:31.276 --> 0:04:34.956 season two, episode nine, McDonald's broke my heart, all about 0:04:35.156 --> 0:04:39.836 McDonald's French fries. But my mission wasn't as greasy. I 0:04:39.916 --> 0:04:51.876 was sent to Mattson for a more cultivated reason. Okay, 0:04:52.116 --> 0:04:55.676 so our story begins in twenty eighteen. Barb's at this 0:04:55.796 --> 0:04:59.516 conference for an amazing new technology that everyone's calling lab 0:04:59.676 --> 0:05:02.756 grown meat, and she starts to get this hit in 0:05:02.796 --> 0:05:03.396 her stomach. 0:05:04.356 --> 0:05:08.396 It was really the year where this technology was starting 0:05:08.396 --> 0:05:13.596 to happen and companies were figuring out how they were 0:05:13.676 --> 0:05:17.316 going to isolate the cells that they wanted to use 0:05:17.436 --> 0:05:20.516 to make the type of meat that they wanted to use, 0:05:22.036 --> 0:05:26.676 and it was just mind blowing. So the idea here 0:05:26.996 --> 0:05:30.916 is very simple. It is to be able to make 0:05:32.196 --> 0:05:37.476 meat by using cells of meat to make more meat, 0:05:37.836 --> 0:05:42.996 and that idea just to me, it was just brilliance. 0:05:43.316 --> 0:05:45.876 And also, know no animals will suffer, and there's not 0:05:46.516 --> 0:05:49.076 factory farming things like this, you won't have so. 0:05:48.956 --> 0:05:51.596 Many things that we don't have to worry about anymore. 0:05:51.876 --> 0:05:54.596 It can be done inside. So it just seemed it 0:05:54.596 --> 0:05:58.876 seemed like magic. It just felt like something's happening here. 0:05:59.996 --> 0:06:02.796 This would be like huge for me because my wife 0:06:02.876 --> 0:06:05.876 is an ethical vegetarian and if I could tell her 0:06:05.916 --> 0:06:08.276 that there was nothing killed in producing meat that we 0:06:08.316 --> 0:06:10.556 were eating, I would say, suddenly be eating meat again 0:06:11.236 --> 0:06:12.756 at home, which would be thrilling. 0:06:13.636 --> 0:06:17.876 Steak would return. 0:06:16.116 --> 0:06:20.316 And not just when Julia's out. But there's like there 0:06:20.316 --> 0:06:22.036 are all sorts of there are all sorts of potential 0:06:22.116 --> 0:06:25.076 upsides to this technology, and Barb's just sitting there thinking 0:06:25.116 --> 0:06:25.756 about them. 0:06:26.116 --> 0:06:29.196 There's like ten different environmental reasons why we would want 0:06:29.236 --> 0:06:32.876 to Cattle farming is one of the single greatest contributors 0:06:32.916 --> 0:06:35.836 to global warming. It sucks up enormous amounts. 0:06:35.436 --> 0:06:39.596 Of water, methane emission, methane emissions, but you could you 0:06:39.596 --> 0:06:42.356 could make a case that we're replacing the cattle industry 0:06:42.876 --> 0:06:44.756 with something that comes out of a lab would be 0:06:44.836 --> 0:06:46.876 one of the single biggest things we could do in 0:06:46.916 --> 0:06:48.756 favor of of of the environment. 0:06:48.796 --> 0:06:51.836 I mean is no. See, there's like there's obviously there's 0:06:51.836 --> 0:06:56.796 like runoff to runoff from cattle farms, fertilizer any so 0:06:56.836 --> 0:06:59.076 there's there are all these like huge upsides and barb, 0:06:59.236 --> 0:07:01.356 who's you know, the person who's most excited to go 0:07:01.396 --> 0:07:04.876 to work is just thrilled about this. However, there was 0:07:04.916 --> 0:07:05.436 a problem. 0:07:05.996 --> 0:07:10.756 It started with an image, and I'm going to show 0:07:10.756 --> 0:07:11.596 you the image. 0:07:12.996 --> 0:07:17.956 So we're looking at a Petrie dish of what looks 0:07:17.996 --> 0:07:22.676 like a perfectly round patty of raw ground beef. 0:07:22.836 --> 0:07:27.356 Yes, And to me, having it in a Petrie dish. 0:07:27.436 --> 0:07:29.356 Not good, not at. 0:07:29.116 --> 0:07:32.596 All appealing, delicious or anything I want to put in 0:07:32.676 --> 0:07:33.156 my body. 0:07:33.236 --> 0:07:35.356 And already like raw meat is not something I see 0:07:35.436 --> 0:07:37.356 and think not super repeated. 0:07:37.316 --> 0:07:38.596 It's so sexy. 0:07:38.836 --> 0:07:41.796 So I sat through the conference and it was probably 0:07:41.876 --> 0:07:44.636 three or four days, and I kept hearing these terms 0:07:45.156 --> 0:07:50.476 cell based meat, lab grown meat, and it just I 0:07:50.596 --> 0:07:54.836 was so horrified by the language that I grabbed the 0:07:55.156 --> 0:07:57.836 executive director and I just you know, pulled on his 0:07:57.916 --> 0:07:59.316 jacket and I said, can we talk. 0:08:00.476 --> 0:08:02.916 I think that we need to. 0:08:03.516 --> 0:08:07.716 Work on the naming and the communication around this technology. 0:08:08.236 --> 0:08:11.676 That if we don't do it now, and we don't 0:08:11.676 --> 0:08:14.596 explain it right, and we don't bring the consumer along 0:08:14.636 --> 0:08:18.636 from the beginning, we're going to end up like GMOs. 0:08:18.836 --> 0:08:22.596 And nobody's going to want to use GMOs and their formulations, 0:08:22.636 --> 0:08:24.316 and consumers are not going to want to eat it, 0:08:24.436 --> 0:08:29.476 and we're going to lose this possibility of progress in 0:08:29.556 --> 0:08:32.996 terms of feeding the world. I have tasted meat made 0:08:33.036 --> 0:08:35.876 this way and I was shocked at how much it 0:08:35.956 --> 0:08:37.076 tastes like real meat. 0:08:37.196 --> 0:08:40.116 But it's not No one's going to get there if 0:08:40.156 --> 0:08:44.156 it's called lab grown meat, exactly going to end up 0:08:44.636 --> 0:08:48.996 like GMOs, which is our first mistake. That's after the break. 0:08:56.876 --> 0:09:00.356 So the first mistake. We had to talk to Steve 0:09:00.636 --> 0:09:05.796 who was the CEO at the time, And it starts 0:09:06.756 --> 0:09:11.116 in the nineteen nineties, eight nineties, early two thousands when 0:09:11.116 --> 0:09:15.836 a company called Zenica now known as Astrozenica, so of 0:09:15.876 --> 0:09:20.196 the COVID vaccine fame, approaches Mattson and says we have 0:09:20.316 --> 0:09:24.596 created a genetically modified tomato and we need your help. 0:09:25.156 --> 0:09:27.476 We're here to talk about the story of the tomato. 0:09:28.516 --> 0:09:31.316 I mean, what what why did the why did this 0:09:31.516 --> 0:09:34.236 GMO tomato exist? What problem? What problem was it solving? 0:09:34.396 --> 0:09:39.716 It was all about harvesting and transportation and processing. So 0:09:42.236 --> 0:09:47.076 tomatoes by their very nature are delicate. So the most 0:09:47.116 --> 0:09:53.036 optimum tomatoes for the hedonics and the organ eleptics and 0:09:53.116 --> 0:09:57.876 how it tastes and you know all those criteria. They 0:09:57.916 --> 0:10:01.556 were very difficult to harvest economically. 0:10:01.556 --> 0:10:04.716 Because you had if you let it ripen on the vine, 0:10:04.716 --> 0:10:06.996 you had too long, it was a very short window 0:10:07.036 --> 0:10:09.316 in which you could ship it, or if it was 0:10:09.476 --> 0:10:10.276 easier to puncture. 0:10:10.796 --> 0:10:14.956 Yes, exactly, they became delicate, they were harder to harvest. 0:10:15.756 --> 0:10:19.036 Basically, it's like tomatoes are a really difficult crop because 0:10:19.036 --> 0:10:22.636 if you pick them ripe, then they're very soft. You 0:10:22.716 --> 0:10:25.636 have lower yields because they're using these huge combines to 0:10:25.756 --> 0:10:28.436 harvest them, and so you're likely to lose a lot 0:10:28.436 --> 0:10:30.636 of tomatoes, which then drives up the price of the 0:10:30.636 --> 0:10:33.356 tomatoes that you do ship. And then you're shipping these 0:10:33.556 --> 0:10:36.796 ripen tomatoes, which means they have a very short time 0:10:37.436 --> 0:10:39.316 to get to wherever they're going to be sold and 0:10:39.356 --> 0:10:42.596 then used. So the way they would handle this, there 0:10:42.596 --> 0:10:44.356 are a few ways people handle this, but one way 0:10:44.436 --> 0:10:47.196 was that you would literally pick a tomato green, ship 0:10:47.236 --> 0:10:49.556 it green because it was firmer and not yet ripe, 0:10:49.556 --> 0:10:51.996 and then gas it with that ethylene gas before it 0:10:52.076 --> 0:10:53.996 hit the market shelves, which gave it the sort of 0:10:54.276 --> 0:10:56.996 red look that you expect from a tomato. So it 0:10:57.076 --> 0:11:02.796 was like, overall a suboptimal situation for tomato lovers and GMOs, 0:11:02.876 --> 0:11:08.076 which are genetically modified organisms, first developed to make human insulin, 0:11:08.716 --> 0:11:13.716 and then in nineteen ninety four it's applied to foodstuffs 0:11:13.836 --> 0:11:16.116 and the first thing that gets approved by the FDA 0:11:16.476 --> 0:11:19.436 is a tomato. It's called the Flavor Saverer tomato, which 0:11:19.476 --> 0:11:23.116 is basically trying to solve this basic problem of how 0:11:23.156 --> 0:11:27.396 you like pick and ship tomatoes. So there's an This 0:11:27.476 --> 0:11:31.636 is one of those first GMO products that Zenica brings 0:11:31.676 --> 0:11:34.836 to Matson, and what they're asking Matson to do is 0:11:34.876 --> 0:11:38.236 not develop the tomato, which they've designed basically with the 0:11:38.316 --> 0:11:43.436 end use of pures, soups things like that, but basically 0:11:43.476 --> 0:11:46.516 solve this crucial problem of GMOs, which is how do 0:11:46.556 --> 0:11:49.356 you get consumers on board? How do you get people 0:11:49.396 --> 0:11:50.556 to buy into this thing. 0:11:50.636 --> 0:11:55.436 It's funny because I was in the early nineties covering 0:11:55.476 --> 0:11:59.356 the FDA for an nih for the Washington Post. So 0:11:59.396 --> 0:12:03.796 I was writing about all these early things in that period, 0:12:03.916 --> 0:12:08.156 and I feel like it was there was predictable. It 0:12:08.196 --> 0:12:10.036 was predictable in the sense that there was always going 0:12:10.076 --> 0:12:18.836 to be people suspicious of of genetic modification on all levels, 0:12:19.156 --> 0:12:21.116 right because it was so new back then. I mean, 0:12:21.276 --> 0:12:25.476 you twer sent now where we've you know, we've had 0:12:25.636 --> 0:12:29.076 thirty years of this, but in ninety four it was 0:12:29.156 --> 0:12:32.596 like science fiction. That's the sort of problem the grappling 0:12:32.636 --> 0:12:35.196 with that. I mean, people don't even can even really 0:12:35.196 --> 0:12:38.956 wrap their mind around what it means to genetically modify something, 0:12:40.516 --> 0:12:43.316 and so that I feel like the backlash has shifted 0:12:43.316 --> 0:12:46.596 over time, but the initial backlash, a lot of the 0:12:46.636 --> 0:12:49.636 initial backlash is simply a kind of mystification. 0:12:50.596 --> 0:12:54.196 Well, so I was thinking about the favor say, the 0:12:54.196 --> 0:12:57.076 Tomato is nineteen ninety four, Jurassic Park comes out in 0:12:57.116 --> 0:12:59.796 nineteen ninety three, So it's like, if you have a 0:12:59.796 --> 0:13:02.476 cultural reference point for what the scientists are doing, it's 0:13:02.516 --> 0:13:05.276 like dinosaurs, We're going to eat you alive. You're kind 0:13:05.276 --> 0:13:07.636 of like, that's we're not supposed to be doing that right. 0:13:07.756 --> 0:13:11.876 Yes, it fits in with you know, there's a there's 0:13:11.916 --> 0:13:15.076 a kind of moral element which we don't see as 0:13:15.156 --> 0:13:19.276 much today, that we should not be disrupting God's creation 0:13:19.796 --> 0:13:20.436 in this way. 0:13:20.636 --> 0:13:25.996 So Steve talks about this. Actually they begin to bring 0:13:26.076 --> 0:13:31.116 people in to actually encounter the tomato and the zenka 0:13:31.156 --> 0:13:35.716 tomato and study how they respond to it in these 0:13:35.756 --> 0:13:39.556 focus groups when people try the tomato. So do you 0:13:39.556 --> 0:13:42.196 recall how people would react when they tasted it? 0:13:42.476 --> 0:13:46.276 Yeah, yeah, this is a great tomato. And I remember, 0:13:46.436 --> 0:13:49.596 especially cutting them open. There was one thing, you know, 0:13:49.716 --> 0:13:50.636 people handle them. 0:13:50.676 --> 0:13:53.116 And so you put a tomato in front of a 0:13:53.156 --> 0:13:55.956 consumer and you say, one of these is genetically modified. No, 0:13:56.156 --> 0:13:56.476 not that. 0:13:56.476 --> 0:14:00.596 When you just start talking about how are they grown, 0:14:00.796 --> 0:14:04.316 where are they grown? Are they good for you? What 0:14:04.476 --> 0:14:06.916 makes a bad tomato? What makes a good tomato? You 0:14:06.996 --> 0:14:11.276 kind of build up to the aha moment. You do 0:14:11.316 --> 0:14:17.236 a slow reveal. You know what if the pasta sauce 0:14:17.276 --> 0:14:21.596 you ever had was made with a high bread tomato 0:14:21.756 --> 0:14:24.596 that had never been grown before. You kind of start 0:14:24.636 --> 0:14:28.076 off with baby steps and this is a this is 0:14:28.156 --> 0:14:33.916 a news, this is a new high bread tomato. Then 0:14:35.116 --> 0:14:38.036 we just kept going deeper and deeper into the story 0:14:38.676 --> 0:14:41.356 until we finally found the point where they pushed back 0:14:41.596 --> 0:14:45.556 that Okay, now now you've crossed the line where was 0:14:45.796 --> 0:14:50.916 where you've got scientists who are not just breeding. These 0:14:50.956 --> 0:14:56.236 aren't agronomous and agricultural specialists. This is like stuff in 0:14:56.276 --> 0:15:01.836 the lab where you're modifying the seed genetically. I mean, 0:15:01.876 --> 0:15:06.636 these were words that were not Genetics was not a 0:15:06.796 --> 0:15:12.996 common word back then. The word modified organism sounded like 0:15:13.036 --> 0:15:18.556 I remember consumers selling sounded like bugs, you know, or bacteria. 0:15:18.516 --> 0:15:19.756 Or you know. 0:15:19.796 --> 0:15:21.156 They were all kinds. 0:15:20.756 --> 0:15:24.316 Of three words modified. 0:15:25.076 --> 0:15:28.876 And you have a nuclear franken food, right. It came 0:15:28.916 --> 0:15:33.476 from professor at Boston College and then got picked up 0:15:33.476 --> 0:15:35.396 by the New York Times and ended up in an 0:15:35.476 --> 0:15:37.116 up ed and off it went. 0:15:38.556 --> 0:15:41.916 Lewis wrote, quote, if they want to sell us franken food, 0:15:42.156 --> 0:15:45.716 perhaps it's time to gather the villagers, light some torches, 0:15:46.076 --> 0:15:50.316 and head to the castle. Steve basically finds that everybody 0:15:50.316 --> 0:15:53.596 has already been freaked out by the name genatically modified organisms, 0:15:53.596 --> 0:15:57.196 and they call it franken food, and so like what 0:15:57.236 --> 0:15:58.876 they try to do at Mattson has come up with 0:15:58.916 --> 0:16:01.436 a story that says like this is not really that 0:16:01.556 --> 0:16:05.676 different than what we've already done for centuries, Like think 0:16:05.716 --> 0:16:08.596 about the way we make apples by grafting parts of 0:16:08.636 --> 0:16:11.476 one apple tree onto another apple tree. And they come 0:16:11.556 --> 0:16:14.956 up with these analogies, and the thing is like it 0:16:15.196 --> 0:16:19.276 just it doesn't really stick because they've got this name 0:16:19.436 --> 0:16:22.236 GMOs that hangs over everything. And he even talks about 0:16:22.276 --> 0:16:25.316 how people just shortened the acronym, like pronounced it by 0:16:25.316 --> 0:16:28.796 the acronym, like they call them GMOs. And it was this, 0:16:28.996 --> 0:16:32.716 it was like this banner that nobody could really get past. 0:16:33.036 --> 0:16:37.236 And what the banner meant to people is science is 0:16:37.276 --> 0:16:40.516 involved in this. There's like some sort of like hubris, 0:16:40.556 --> 0:16:42.996 we're treading in a place where we shouldn't tread. Like 0:16:43.076 --> 0:16:45.556 what they were eating may look and taste like a tomato, 0:16:45.676 --> 0:16:47.956 but it's it's just like in some fundamental way, it's not. 0:16:48.956 --> 0:16:54.116 There was some kind of line. What they wanted to 0:16:54.156 --> 0:16:58.316 be sure was that what they were still eating was 0:16:58.476 --> 0:17:05.996 truly a tomato, that it somehow was not so synthetically 0:17:06.196 --> 0:17:10.276 bred that it kind of crossed the line that it 0:17:10.476 --> 0:17:15.196 was no longer truly a tomato, but some kind of red, 0:17:15.316 --> 0:17:16.236 delicious fruit. 0:17:16.916 --> 0:17:17.636 It's a zombies. 0:17:17.676 --> 0:17:18.716 It's a zombie tomato. 0:17:18.876 --> 0:17:19.796 Yeah, it is. 0:17:19.916 --> 0:17:20.356 It is. 0:17:21.236 --> 0:17:25.716 They have attached one of the most kind of elemental 0:17:27.476 --> 0:17:30.076 dystopian human fantasies. 0:17:30.356 --> 0:17:33.316 Right right, this thing looks like what I'm familiar with, 0:17:33.396 --> 0:17:34.676 but actually. 0:17:34.356 --> 0:17:37.236 Yes, it has the appearance of nomalacy, but inside there 0:17:37.316 --> 0:17:40.996 is something foreign. And I mean every you know, there's 0:17:41.036 --> 0:17:43.436 a huge category of sci fi movies that are just 0:17:43.476 --> 0:17:44.156 about this thing. 0:17:44.476 --> 0:17:47.796 Yes, everyone's worried that they made the zombie tomato, and 0:17:47.876 --> 0:17:50.476 I think basically it's like, however good The analogy is, 0:17:51.076 --> 0:17:53.956 it's Xenica's tomato loses out, Like at one point it 0:17:54.036 --> 0:17:58.356 has a sixty something percent it sells way better than 0:17:58.436 --> 0:18:03.156 like the average tomato pure in UK supermarkets, and then 0:18:03.316 --> 0:18:07.236 after some of the backlash to the flavorsaverer tomato, Zenica 0:18:07.476 --> 0:18:10.316 like vastly loses market share at plummets. So now you 0:18:10.356 --> 0:18:13.876 can't get a Zeneca GMO tomato on the market. I'm 0:18:13.876 --> 0:18:15.396 sure there are all kinds of reasons, but like a 0:18:15.396 --> 0:18:19.396 big one is that there's this huge resistance to GMO's 0:18:19.476 --> 0:18:20.676 frank and food GMOs. 0:18:20.716 --> 0:18:23.796 Wait, so when I buy tomatoes in them in the 0:18:23.836 --> 0:18:26.196 supermarket today, none of them GMO. 0:18:27.236 --> 0:18:29.236 I don't think that none of them are GMO, but 0:18:29.276 --> 0:18:32.956 I suspect that the vast majority are not GMO, which 0:18:32.996 --> 0:18:34.916 honestly I get. I think if you gave me a choice, 0:18:34.956 --> 0:18:37.596 I would prefer a naturally occurring tomato, which is not 0:18:37.636 --> 0:18:40.036 something I'm proud of. But there is something about the 0:18:40.076 --> 0:18:43.316 intensity of the anti GMO thing that I relate less to. 0:18:44.116 --> 0:18:46.596 This morning, I open up my morning yogurt and when 0:18:46.636 --> 0:18:49.876 I opened the lid. On the lid, it says made 0:18:49.876 --> 0:18:52.876 from milk from non GMO cows. It's like and it's 0:18:52.916 --> 0:18:54.876 sort of like screaming this thing at me that I like, 0:18:54.876 --> 0:18:58.396 it was a question I wasn't even asking. It's just like, oh, 0:18:58.756 --> 0:19:00.756 or had I had? Like I made my friend Mutter 0:19:00.876 --> 0:19:02.956 Pinier the other night and I use this these like 0:19:03.036 --> 0:19:06.796 this chili spice I had and it says like non 0:19:06.916 --> 0:19:10.716 GMO chili, and I was like, That's what didn't even 0:19:10.716 --> 0:19:14.116 occur to me that this might be Emotionally, It's become 0:19:14.156 --> 0:19:19.276 this rallying cry where whatever Matson wanted to happen, whatever 0:19:19.396 --> 0:19:22.076 Zeneca wanted to happen with the way people would respond 0:19:22.076 --> 0:19:25.676 to GMOs, the exact opposite happened. And it's because I 0:19:25.716 --> 0:19:28.076 think like they never could change the name. 0:19:28.676 --> 0:19:31.556 The first time I heard franken food, I was like, Okay, 0:19:31.756 --> 0:19:38.076 this is bad. Words are very powerful, and for whatever reason, 0:19:38.116 --> 0:19:41.036 I think that was a hard stop. 0:19:42.596 --> 0:19:46.796 So all of this brings us to our second mistake, 0:19:46.996 --> 0:19:49.116 the one that we are that Barb is trying to 0:19:49.116 --> 0:19:52.716 stop us from making again, which is it's twenty eighteen. 0:19:53.516 --> 0:19:56.476 She goes to this conference and it's all about this 0:19:56.516 --> 0:20:01.996 thing called lab grown meat, and she's sitting there getting 0:20:02.036 --> 0:20:05.356 all excited about this technology and then hearing this word 0:20:05.436 --> 0:20:08.436 thrown around and she's just like, oh no, we're about 0:20:08.436 --> 0:20:15.596 to do it again. Whiplash, whiplash. Maybe this is a 0:20:15.876 --> 0:20:17.556 this is a good time for a commercial break. 0:20:18.436 --> 0:20:51.956 Okay, we'll be right back. 0:20:49.956 --> 0:20:52.516 All right. So back with Barb at the lab grown 0:20:52.556 --> 0:20:55.476 meat conference, and she keeps hearing these names for it, 0:20:55.756 --> 0:20:59.316 lab grown meat, cell based meat, and she's like, it's 0:20:59.356 --> 0:21:02.116 happening again. So how did you go about trying to 0:21:02.156 --> 0:21:05.716 solve this problem because you basically, let's not make the 0:21:05.796 --> 0:21:08.596 GMO mistake twice. That's right. 0:21:09.276 --> 0:21:12.196 It was really a rallying cry for everyone on the team. 0:21:12.836 --> 0:21:16.676 Imagine if it were lab grown organisms. 0:21:16.956 --> 0:21:20.356 It that makes my stomach lip not so happy. 0:21:21.036 --> 0:21:23.556 So she starts doing the mats and things. She gets 0:21:23.556 --> 0:21:26.316 a bunch of people together in a room. She starts testing, 0:21:26.396 --> 0:21:28.396 how do you feel about this? What do you think? 0:21:28.476 --> 0:21:29.436 How does it look to you? 0:21:30.116 --> 0:21:31.996 It was one of my friends that I was trying 0:21:32.036 --> 0:21:35.676 to explain the technology to her, and she said, oh, no, 0:21:36.516 --> 0:21:40.716 I don't think God wants us to eat that interesting, Yes, 0:21:40.796 --> 0:21:43.116 one of my friends. I don't even know how to 0:21:43.156 --> 0:21:46.036 explain it. But it did occur to me that there 0:21:46.156 --> 0:21:52.236 could be some very different opinions. And turns out that 0:21:52.836 --> 0:21:58.716 even to this day, there is a very political skew 0:21:59.516 --> 0:22:02.636 for whether or not you're interested in this kind of 0:22:02.716 --> 0:22:03.316 a product. 0:22:03.556 --> 0:22:07.676 Florida, in fact, has banned this product, and Alabama and. 0:22:08.076 --> 0:22:10.996 Yes, so yeah, but it's now become a political issue. 0:22:11.036 --> 0:22:12.956 So it was like a like a religious thing that 0:22:13.076 --> 0:22:13.756 something could. 0:22:13.556 --> 0:22:17.156 Come political somehow in a weird way. It's like it 0:22:17.756 --> 0:22:20.276 plays in the cluster of neurons that has something to 0:22:20.316 --> 0:22:23.276 do with abortion. Also, like there's like in vitro is 0:22:23.316 --> 0:22:26.116 a word that applies to both of these, to the 0:22:26.116 --> 0:22:28.236 gray areas of both of these universes. 0:22:28.476 --> 0:22:32.036 I would say, you know, the ven diagram of people 0:22:32.116 --> 0:22:38.076 who are anti abortion are going to be anti cultivated 0:22:38.116 --> 0:22:38.436 meat too. 0:22:38.476 --> 0:22:41.316 It's really interesting, anti lab road meat. 0:22:42.196 --> 0:22:44.396 So what does she does? She have a tone that 0:22:44.476 --> 0:22:45.196 she wants to use. 0:22:45.876 --> 0:22:51.316 Yeah, she gets these people together to start thinking about 0:22:51.356 --> 0:22:53.516 the story and what name can emerge from the story 0:22:53.676 --> 0:22:55.116 somewhere better than others. 0:22:55.756 --> 0:22:59.156 Okay, well here's I'm sorry. 0:22:59.436 --> 0:23:02.276 Nano pastured meat got five votes? 0:23:03.476 --> 0:23:16.636 What unbounded meat, slaughter free, propagated, minimalist agriculture. I don't 0:23:16.636 --> 0:23:21.036 remember these celebration No, definitely not. 0:23:22.036 --> 0:23:23.676 You know, we went through this huge list of names. 0:23:23.716 --> 0:23:26.716 I think she has something like one hundred, and it 0:23:26.836 --> 0:23:29.436 is a really hard problem to solve, like what to 0:23:29.556 --> 0:23:31.716 name this thing? Because the whole challenges you have to 0:23:31.716 --> 0:23:33.436 come up with a new name for a thing that 0:23:33.516 --> 0:23:35.956 doesn't foreground the fact that this is a new thing 0:23:36.676 --> 0:23:41.236 and it's just this that paradox inherent in the project. Right, 0:23:41.796 --> 0:23:43.996 So then the question is meat, like what is how 0:23:43.996 --> 0:23:46.036 do you package it such that it's not like they're 0:23:46.116 --> 0:23:48.516 lying to me this was grown in a lab. You're like, 0:23:48.556 --> 0:23:51.516 this is slightly different. But they do land on this 0:23:51.756 --> 0:23:55.556 one name that splits the difference. I think pretty well, 0:23:56.396 --> 0:23:57.916 do you remember when you hit on the one that 0:23:57.956 --> 0:23:58.636 you landed on. 0:23:59.356 --> 0:24:02.436