1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,556 --> 00:00:24,276 Speaker 2: So I went to California at your behest? 3 00:00:24,796 --> 00:00:27,756 Speaker 3: Did I wish? Because first of all. 4 00:00:28,276 --> 00:00:30,036 Speaker 2: I know you wish that you had been there yourself, 5 00:00:30,036 --> 00:00:31,836 Speaker 2: because this is your favorite place. 6 00:00:31,996 --> 00:00:35,956 Speaker 3: This is one really hurt and I'm. 7 00:00:35,996 --> 00:00:38,276 Speaker 2: We should just say where we're talking about, Okay. 8 00:00:38,356 --> 00:00:43,316 Speaker 3: So I sent you Ben on a mission because I 9 00:00:43,316 --> 00:00:47,396 Speaker 3: couldn't go because my wife would leave me if I 10 00:00:47,436 --> 00:00:51,276 Speaker 3: took one more trip, basically, and so with a heavy heart, 11 00:00:51,396 --> 00:00:54,556 Speaker 3: I handed the reins to one of my favorite places 12 00:00:54,596 --> 00:00:59,836 Speaker 3: in America, which is the food lab at Matson Madson 13 00:00:59,996 --> 00:01:03,916 Speaker 3: is like Madison's like the R and D. If you 14 00:01:04,116 --> 00:01:05,916 Speaker 3: if you were a food company in America and you 15 00:01:05,956 --> 00:01:09,436 Speaker 3: want to do something new or cool, you maybe tried 16 00:01:09,476 --> 00:01:11,596 Speaker 3: in your own lab, but mostly what you do is 17 00:01:11,636 --> 00:01:15,316 Speaker 3: you pick up the phone and you call Matson out 18 00:01:15,316 --> 00:01:17,156 Speaker 3: of the Bay Area and you say, can you make 19 00:01:17,236 --> 00:01:20,716 Speaker 3: me and fill in the blanks the most delicious potato 20 00:01:20,796 --> 00:01:24,676 Speaker 3: chip that also prices you know, is priced under X. 21 00:01:25,036 --> 00:01:27,436 Speaker 2: Or got Like the walls, the walls are lined with 22 00:01:27,516 --> 00:01:31,036 Speaker 2: like a pantry shelf of just like every product you've 23 00:01:31,036 --> 00:01:35,116 Speaker 2: ever had and enjoyed, and like they're like Phrensias on there. 24 00:01:35,676 --> 00:01:38,116 Speaker 2: It's just like all the hits, things that I can't 25 00:01:38,116 --> 00:01:40,356 Speaker 2: even mention because they're nbaight are on the walls. 26 00:01:40,396 --> 00:01:42,196 Speaker 3: Oh my god. It's like if you walk through a 27 00:01:42,196 --> 00:01:45,236 Speaker 3: grocery store after going to Matson, you're like, Oh, that's Matson. Oh, 28 00:01:45,356 --> 00:01:48,796 Speaker 3: that's Matson. Oh, and you realize my diet is basically Matson. 29 00:01:51,516 --> 00:01:53,396 Speaker 2: I interviewed two people out there who you know, of 30 00:01:53,436 --> 00:01:57,996 Speaker 2: course from other Revisionist history episodes. Steve Gundrum, their chief 31 00:01:58,036 --> 00:02:00,236 Speaker 2: AI officer, who was at the time of our first 32 00:02:00,276 --> 00:02:03,556 Speaker 2: mistake the CEO and knows everything about why we like 33 00:02:03,636 --> 00:02:04,276 Speaker 2: what we do. 34 00:02:04,516 --> 00:02:08,676 Speaker 4: And carro Cake became a phenomenon at first because of 35 00:02:08,676 --> 00:02:08,916 Speaker 4: the air. 36 00:02:09,956 --> 00:02:13,796 Speaker 2: And Barbara Stuckey, their chief New Product strategy officer, who's 37 00:02:13,796 --> 00:02:16,276 Speaker 2: an old hand on revisionist and is just a font 38 00:02:16,316 --> 00:02:18,756 Speaker 2: of amazing tales from the Matson archives. 39 00:02:18,996 --> 00:02:22,676 Speaker 5: In the case of this, the challenge was if you've 40 00:02:22,716 --> 00:02:27,556 Speaker 5: ever opened a pomegranate, it's not exactly you can't squeeze 41 00:02:27,596 --> 00:02:28,316 Speaker 5: the pomegranate. 42 00:02:29,596 --> 00:02:33,556 Speaker 3: Like I've really met someone who is clearly so psyched 43 00:02:33,556 --> 00:02:35,116 Speaker 3: to go to work everyone, did you get that sensor? 44 00:02:35,356 --> 00:02:37,956 Speaker 2: She's she was so pumped it was I found it 45 00:02:38,196 --> 00:02:41,516 Speaker 2: so delightful. She's so excited and like a in a 46 00:02:41,596 --> 00:02:44,876 Speaker 2: true believer in this amazing sense in what they do. 47 00:02:45,276 --> 00:02:47,956 Speaker 3: I want. I wanted to take my when they're old enough, 48 00:02:48,076 --> 00:02:51,836 Speaker 3: take my two daughters out to the Bay Area, and 49 00:02:52,436 --> 00:02:54,836 Speaker 3: I want Barbed to do a version of take your 50 00:02:54,916 --> 00:02:57,516 Speaker 3: daughter to work day, only we take my daughter's to 51 00:02:57,596 --> 00:03:00,516 Speaker 3: work day. I'm I want my daughters to observe what 52 00:03:00,636 --> 00:03:08,436 Speaker 3: it means to be psyched about your job. So I said, 53 00:03:08,476 --> 00:03:10,956 Speaker 3: you out there now, Now, why ben you tell us 54 00:03:11,556 --> 00:03:13,316 Speaker 3: what was? Why did I send you bout there? 55 00:03:13,836 --> 00:03:17,156 Speaker 2: So you sent me out there because you had reached 56 00:03:17,156 --> 00:03:22,116 Speaker 2: out to Barb about a mistake that has loomed very 57 00:03:22,276 --> 00:03:26,836 Speaker 2: large over the entire food industry that she wanted to 58 00:03:26,876 --> 00:03:33,796 Speaker 2: tell us about. And so the story is basically, Barb, 59 00:03:34,076 --> 00:03:36,036 Speaker 2: who's more excited than anyone you've ever met to go 60 00:03:36,036 --> 00:03:39,116 Speaker 2: to work every day, is going to work in twenty eighteen, 61 00:03:39,516 --> 00:03:43,476 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen area and is at a conference 62 00:03:44,356 --> 00:03:47,596 Speaker 2: where she comes face to face with the future of 63 00:03:47,636 --> 00:03:52,676 Speaker 2: the food industry and then realizes that the food industry 64 00:03:53,076 --> 00:03:56,476 Speaker 2: is about to commit Harry Carey on a much broader 65 00:03:56,516 --> 00:03:59,436 Speaker 2: scale than even McDonald's, and she has to try and 66 00:03:59,516 --> 00:04:03,876 Speaker 2: stop it and So it is the story of two mistakes. 67 00:04:04,476 --> 00:04:06,836 Speaker 2: The first one a mistake that we made in the nineties, 68 00:04:07,076 --> 00:04:09,636 Speaker 2: and the second one a mistake that Barb is trying 69 00:04:09,636 --> 00:04:17,036 Speaker 2: to stop us from making. Today. Welcome to revisionist History. 70 00:04:17,316 --> 00:04:20,796 Speaker 2: I'm Ben Mattapaffrey, and in this our final episode of 71 00:04:20,836 --> 00:04:24,116 Speaker 2: the Mistake series, Malcolm sends me out to California to 72 00:04:24,196 --> 00:04:28,116 Speaker 2: the pantheon of food science, the Hallot Halls of Matson. 73 00:04:28,916 --> 00:04:31,196 Speaker 2: It's a place you may remember from way back in 74 00:04:31,276 --> 00:04:34,956 Speaker 2: season two, episode nine, McDonald's broke my heart, all about 75 00:04:35,156 --> 00:04:39,836 Speaker 2: McDonald's French fries. But my mission wasn't as greasy. I 76 00:04:39,916 --> 00:04:51,876 Speaker 2: was sent to Mattson for a more cultivated reason. Okay, 77 00:04:52,116 --> 00:04:55,676 Speaker 2: so our story begins in twenty eighteen. Barb's at this 78 00:04:55,796 --> 00:04:59,516 Speaker 2: conference for an amazing new technology that everyone's calling lab 79 00:04:59,676 --> 00:05:02,756 Speaker 2: grown meat, and she starts to get this hit in 80 00:05:02,796 --> 00:05:03,396 Speaker 2: her stomach. 81 00:05:04,356 --> 00:05:08,396 Speaker 5: It was really the year where this technology was starting 82 00:05:08,396 --> 00:05:13,596 Speaker 5: to happen and companies were figuring out how they were 83 00:05:13,676 --> 00:05:17,316 Speaker 5: going to isolate the cells that they wanted to use 84 00:05:17,436 --> 00:05:20,516 Speaker 5: to make the type of meat that they wanted to use, 85 00:05:22,036 --> 00:05:26,676 Speaker 5: and it was just mind blowing. So the idea here 86 00:05:26,996 --> 00:05:30,916 Speaker 5: is very simple. It is to be able to make 87 00:05:32,196 --> 00:05:37,476 Speaker 5: meat by using cells of meat to make more meat, 88 00:05:37,836 --> 00:05:42,996 Speaker 5: and that idea just to me, it was just brilliance. 89 00:05:43,316 --> 00:05:45,876 Speaker 2: And also, know no animals will suffer, and there's not 90 00:05:46,516 --> 00:05:49,076 Speaker 2: factory farming things like this, you won't have so. 91 00:05:48,956 --> 00:05:51,596 Speaker 5: Many things that we don't have to worry about anymore. 92 00:05:51,876 --> 00:05:54,596 Speaker 5: It can be done inside. So it just seemed it 93 00:05:54,596 --> 00:05:58,876 Speaker 5: seemed like magic. It just felt like something's happening here. 94 00:05:59,996 --> 00:06:02,796 Speaker 2: This would be like huge for me because my wife 95 00:06:02,876 --> 00:06:05,876 Speaker 2: is an ethical vegetarian and if I could tell her 96 00:06:05,916 --> 00:06:08,276 Speaker 2: that there was nothing killed in producing meat that we 97 00:06:08,316 --> 00:06:10,556 Speaker 2: were eating, I would say, suddenly be eating meat again 98 00:06:11,236 --> 00:06:12,756 Speaker 2: at home, which would be thrilling. 99 00:06:13,636 --> 00:06:17,876 Speaker 3: Steak would return. 100 00:06:16,116 --> 00:06:20,316 Speaker 2: And not just when Julia's out. But there's like there 101 00:06:20,316 --> 00:06:22,036 Speaker 2: are all sorts of there are all sorts of potential 102 00:06:22,116 --> 00:06:25,076 Speaker 2: upsides to this technology, and Barb's just sitting there thinking 103 00:06:25,116 --> 00:06:25,756 Speaker 2: about them. 104 00:06:26,116 --> 00:06:29,196 Speaker 3: There's like ten different environmental reasons why we would want 105 00:06:29,236 --> 00:06:32,876 Speaker 3: to Cattle farming is one of the single greatest contributors 106 00:06:32,916 --> 00:06:35,836 Speaker 3: to global warming. It sucks up enormous amounts. 107 00:06:35,436 --> 00:06:39,596 Speaker 6: Of water, methane emission, methane emissions, but you could you 108 00:06:39,596 --> 00:06:42,356 Speaker 6: could make a case that we're replacing the cattle industry 109 00:06:42,876 --> 00:06:44,756 Speaker 6: with something that comes out of a lab would be 110 00:06:44,836 --> 00:06:46,876 Speaker 6: one of the single biggest things we could do in 111 00:06:46,916 --> 00:06:48,756 Speaker 6: favor of of of the environment. 112 00:06:48,796 --> 00:06:51,836 Speaker 2: I mean is no. See, there's like there's obviously there's 113 00:06:51,836 --> 00:06:56,796 Speaker 2: like runoff to runoff from cattle farms, fertilizer any so 114 00:06:56,836 --> 00:06:59,076 Speaker 2: there's there are all these like huge upsides and barb, 115 00:06:59,236 --> 00:07:01,356 Speaker 2: who's you know, the person who's most excited to go 116 00:07:01,396 --> 00:07:04,876 Speaker 2: to work is just thrilled about this. However, there was 117 00:07:04,916 --> 00:07:05,436 Speaker 2: a problem. 118 00:07:05,996 --> 00:07:10,756 Speaker 5: It started with an image, and I'm going to show 119 00:07:10,756 --> 00:07:11,596 Speaker 5: you the image. 120 00:07:12,996 --> 00:07:17,956 Speaker 2: So we're looking at a Petrie dish of what looks 121 00:07:17,996 --> 00:07:22,676 Speaker 2: like a perfectly round patty of raw ground beef. 122 00:07:22,836 --> 00:07:27,356 Speaker 5: Yes, And to me, having it in a Petrie dish. 123 00:07:27,436 --> 00:07:29,356 Speaker 2: Not good, not at. 124 00:07:29,116 --> 00:07:32,596 Speaker 5: All appealing, delicious or anything I want to put in 125 00:07:32,676 --> 00:07:33,156 Speaker 5: my body. 126 00:07:33,236 --> 00:07:35,356 Speaker 2: And already like raw meat is not something I see 127 00:07:35,436 --> 00:07:37,356 Speaker 2: and think not super repeated. 128 00:07:37,316 --> 00:07:38,596 Speaker 7: It's so sexy. 129 00:07:38,836 --> 00:07:41,796 Speaker 5: So I sat through the conference and it was probably 130 00:07:41,876 --> 00:07:44,636 Speaker 5: three or four days, and I kept hearing these terms 131 00:07:45,156 --> 00:07:50,476 Speaker 5: cell based meat, lab grown meat, and it just I 132 00:07:50,596 --> 00:07:54,836 Speaker 5: was so horrified by the language that I grabbed the 133 00:07:55,156 --> 00:07:57,836 Speaker 5: executive director and I just you know, pulled on his 134 00:07:57,916 --> 00:07:59,316 Speaker 5: jacket and I said, can we talk. 135 00:08:00,476 --> 00:08:02,916 Speaker 7: I think that we need to. 136 00:08:03,516 --> 00:08:07,716 Speaker 5: Work on the naming and the communication around this technology. 137 00:08:08,236 --> 00:08:11,676 Speaker 5: That if we don't do it now, and we don't 138 00:08:11,676 --> 00:08:14,596 Speaker 5: explain it right, and we don't bring the consumer along 139 00:08:14,636 --> 00:08:18,636 Speaker 5: from the beginning, we're going to end up like GMOs. 140 00:08:18,836 --> 00:08:22,596 Speaker 5: And nobody's going to want to use GMOs and their formulations, 141 00:08:22,636 --> 00:08:24,316 Speaker 5: and consumers are not going to want to eat it, 142 00:08:24,436 --> 00:08:29,476 Speaker 5: and we're going to lose this possibility of progress in 143 00:08:29,556 --> 00:08:32,996 Speaker 5: terms of feeding the world. I have tasted meat made 144 00:08:33,036 --> 00:08:35,876 Speaker 5: this way and I was shocked at how much it 145 00:08:35,956 --> 00:08:37,076 Speaker 5: tastes like real meat. 146 00:08:37,196 --> 00:08:40,116 Speaker 2: But it's not No one's going to get there if 147 00:08:40,156 --> 00:08:44,156 Speaker 2: it's called lab grown meat, exactly going to end up 148 00:08:44,636 --> 00:08:48,996 Speaker 2: like GMOs, which is our first mistake. That's after the break. 149 00:08:56,876 --> 00:09:00,356 Speaker 2: So the first mistake. We had to talk to Steve 150 00:09:00,636 --> 00:09:05,796 Speaker 2: who was the CEO at the time, And it starts 151 00:09:06,756 --> 00:09:11,116 Speaker 2: in the nineteen nineties, eight nineties, early two thousands when 152 00:09:11,116 --> 00:09:15,836 Speaker 2: a company called Zenica now known as Astrozenica, so of 153 00:09:15,876 --> 00:09:20,196 Speaker 2: the COVID vaccine fame, approaches Mattson and says we have 154 00:09:20,316 --> 00:09:24,596 Speaker 2: created a genetically modified tomato and we need your help. 155 00:09:25,156 --> 00:09:27,476 Speaker 2: We're here to talk about the story of the tomato. 156 00:09:28,516 --> 00:09:31,316 Speaker 2: I mean, what what why did the why did this 157 00:09:31,516 --> 00:09:34,236 Speaker 2: GMO tomato exist? What problem? What problem was it solving? 158 00:09:34,396 --> 00:09:39,716 Speaker 4: It was all about harvesting and transportation and processing. So 159 00:09:42,236 --> 00:09:47,076 Speaker 4: tomatoes by their very nature are delicate. So the most 160 00:09:47,116 --> 00:09:53,036 Speaker 4: optimum tomatoes for the hedonics and the organ eleptics and 161 00:09:53,116 --> 00:09:57,876 Speaker 4: how it tastes and you know all those criteria. They 162 00:09:57,916 --> 00:10:01,556 Speaker 4: were very difficult to harvest economically. 163 00:10:01,556 --> 00:10:04,716 Speaker 2: Because you had if you let it ripen on the vine, 164 00:10:04,716 --> 00:10:06,996 Speaker 2: you had too long, it was a very short window 165 00:10:07,036 --> 00:10:09,316 Speaker 2: in which you could ship it, or if it was 166 00:10:09,476 --> 00:10:10,276 Speaker 2: easier to puncture. 167 00:10:10,796 --> 00:10:14,956 Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, they became delicate, they were harder to harvest. 168 00:10:15,756 --> 00:10:19,036 Speaker 2: Basically, it's like tomatoes are a really difficult crop because 169 00:10:19,036 --> 00:10:22,636 Speaker 2: if you pick them ripe, then they're very soft. You 170 00:10:22,716 --> 00:10:25,636 Speaker 2: have lower yields because they're using these huge combines to 171 00:10:25,756 --> 00:10:28,436 Speaker 2: harvest them, and so you're likely to lose a lot 172 00:10:28,436 --> 00:10:30,636 Speaker 2: of tomatoes, which then drives up the price of the 173 00:10:30,636 --> 00:10:33,356 Speaker 2: tomatoes that you do ship. And then you're shipping these 174 00:10:33,556 --> 00:10:36,796 Speaker 2: ripen tomatoes, which means they have a very short time 175 00:10:37,436 --> 00:10:39,316 Speaker 2: to get to wherever they're going to be sold and 176 00:10:39,356 --> 00:10:42,596 Speaker 2: then used. So the way they would handle this, there 177 00:10:42,596 --> 00:10:44,356 Speaker 2: are a few ways people handle this, but one way 178 00:10:44,436 --> 00:10:47,196 Speaker 2: was that you would literally pick a tomato green, ship 179 00:10:47,236 --> 00:10:49,556 Speaker 2: it green because it was firmer and not yet ripe, 180 00:10:49,556 --> 00:10:51,996 Speaker 2: and then gas it with that ethylene gas before it 181 00:10:52,076 --> 00:10:53,996 Speaker 2: hit the market shelves, which gave it the sort of 182 00:10:54,276 --> 00:10:56,996 Speaker 2: red look that you expect from a tomato. So it 183 00:10:57,076 --> 00:11:02,796 Speaker 2: was like, overall a suboptimal situation for tomato lovers and GMOs, 184 00:11:02,876 --> 00:11:08,076 Speaker 2: which are genetically modified organisms, first developed to make human insulin, 185 00:11:08,716 --> 00:11:13,716 Speaker 2: and then in nineteen ninety four it's applied to foodstuffs 186 00:11:13,836 --> 00:11:16,116 Speaker 2: and the first thing that gets approved by the FDA 187 00:11:16,476 --> 00:11:19,436 Speaker 2: is a tomato. It's called the Flavor Saverer tomato, which 188 00:11:19,476 --> 00:11:23,116 Speaker 2: is basically trying to solve this basic problem of how 189 00:11:23,156 --> 00:11:27,396 Speaker 2: you like pick and ship tomatoes. So there's an This 190 00:11:27,476 --> 00:11:31,636 Speaker 2: is one of those first GMO products that Zenica brings 191 00:11:31,676 --> 00:11:34,836 Speaker 2: to Matson, and what they're asking Matson to do is 192 00:11:34,876 --> 00:11:38,236 Speaker 2: not develop the tomato, which they've designed basically with the 193 00:11:38,316 --> 00:11:43,436 Speaker 2: end use of pures, soups things like that, but basically 194 00:11:43,476 --> 00:11:46,516 Speaker 2: solve this crucial problem of GMOs, which is how do 195 00:11:46,556 --> 00:11:49,356 Speaker 2: you get consumers on board? How do you get people 196 00:11:49,396 --> 00:11:50,556 Speaker 2: to buy into this thing. 197 00:11:50,636 --> 00:11:55,436 Speaker 3: It's funny because I was in the early nineties covering 198 00:11:55,476 --> 00:11:59,356 Speaker 3: the FDA for an nih for the Washington Post. So 199 00:11:59,396 --> 00:12:03,796 Speaker 3: I was writing about all these early things in that period, 200 00:12:03,916 --> 00:12:08,156 Speaker 3: and I feel like it was there was predictable. It 201 00:12:08,196 --> 00:12:10,036 Speaker 3: was predictable in the sense that there was always going 202 00:12:10,076 --> 00:12:18,836 Speaker 3: to be people suspicious of of genetic modification on all levels, 203 00:12:19,156 --> 00:12:21,116 Speaker 3: right because it was so new back then. I mean, 204 00:12:21,276 --> 00:12:25,476 Speaker 3: you twer sent now where we've you know, we've had 205 00:12:25,636 --> 00:12:29,076 Speaker 3: thirty years of this, but in ninety four it was 206 00:12:29,156 --> 00:12:32,596 Speaker 3: like science fiction. That's the sort of problem the grappling 207 00:12:32,636 --> 00:12:35,196 Speaker 3: with that. I mean, people don't even can even really 208 00:12:35,196 --> 00:12:38,956 Speaker 3: wrap their mind around what it means to genetically modify something, 209 00:12:40,516 --> 00:12:43,316 Speaker 3: and so that I feel like the backlash has shifted 210 00:12:43,316 --> 00:12:46,596 Speaker 3: over time, but the initial backlash, a lot of the 211 00:12:46,636 --> 00:12:49,636 Speaker 3: initial backlash is simply a kind of mystification. 212 00:12:50,596 --> 00:12:54,196 Speaker 2: Well, so I was thinking about the favor say, the 213 00:12:54,196 --> 00:12:57,076 Speaker 2: Tomato is nineteen ninety four, Jurassic Park comes out in 214 00:12:57,116 --> 00:12:59,796 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three, So it's like, if you have a 215 00:12:59,796 --> 00:13:02,476 Speaker 2: cultural reference point for what the scientists are doing, it's 216 00:13:02,516 --> 00:13:05,276 Speaker 2: like dinosaurs, We're going to eat you alive. You're kind 217 00:13:05,276 --> 00:13:07,636 Speaker 2: of like, that's we're not supposed to be doing that right. 218 00:13:07,756 --> 00:13:11,876 Speaker 3: Yes, it fits in with you know, there's a there's 219 00:13:11,916 --> 00:13:15,076 Speaker 3: a kind of moral element which we don't see as 220 00:13:15,156 --> 00:13:19,276 Speaker 3: much today, that we should not be disrupting God's creation 221 00:13:19,796 --> 00:13:20,436 Speaker 3: in this way. 222 00:13:20,636 --> 00:13:25,996 Speaker 2: So Steve talks about this. Actually they begin to bring 223 00:13:26,076 --> 00:13:31,116 Speaker 2: people in to actually encounter the tomato and the zenka 224 00:13:31,156 --> 00:13:35,716 Speaker 2: tomato and study how they respond to it in these 225 00:13:35,756 --> 00:13:39,556 Speaker 2: focus groups when people try the tomato. So do you 226 00:13:39,556 --> 00:13:42,196 Speaker 2: recall how people would react when they tasted it? 227 00:13:42,476 --> 00:13:46,276 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, this is a great tomato. And I remember, 228 00:13:46,436 --> 00:13:49,596 Speaker 4: especially cutting them open. There was one thing, you know, 229 00:13:49,716 --> 00:13:50,636 Speaker 4: people handle them. 230 00:13:50,676 --> 00:13:53,116 Speaker 2: And so you put a tomato in front of a 231 00:13:53,156 --> 00:13:55,956 Speaker 2: consumer and you say, one of these is genetically modified. No, 232 00:13:56,156 --> 00:13:56,476 Speaker 2: not that. 233 00:13:56,476 --> 00:14:00,596 Speaker 4: When you just start talking about how are they grown, 234 00:14:00,796 --> 00:14:04,316 Speaker 4: where are they grown? Are they good for you? What 235 00:14:04,476 --> 00:14:06,916 Speaker 4: makes a bad tomato? What makes a good tomato? You 236 00:14:06,996 --> 00:14:11,276 Speaker 4: kind of build up to the aha moment. You do 237 00:14:11,316 --> 00:14:17,236 Speaker 4: a slow reveal. You know what if the pasta sauce 238 00:14:17,276 --> 00:14:21,596 Speaker 4: you ever had was made with a high bread tomato 239 00:14:21,756 --> 00:14:24,596 Speaker 4: that had never been grown before. You kind of start 240 00:14:24,636 --> 00:14:28,076 Speaker 4: off with baby steps and this is a this is 241 00:14:28,156 --> 00:14:33,916 Speaker 4: a news, this is a new high bread tomato. Then 242 00:14:35,116 --> 00:14:38,036 Speaker 4: we just kept going deeper and deeper into the story 243 00:14:38,676 --> 00:14:41,356 Speaker 4: until we finally found the point where they pushed back 244 00:14:41,596 --> 00:14:45,556 Speaker 4: that Okay, now now you've crossed the line where was 245 00:14:45,796 --> 00:14:50,916 Speaker 4: where you've got scientists who are not just breeding. These 246 00:14:50,956 --> 00:14:56,236 Speaker 4: aren't agronomous and agricultural specialists. This is like stuff in 247 00:14:56,276 --> 00:15:01,836 Speaker 4: the lab where you're modifying the seed genetically. I mean, 248 00:15:01,876 --> 00:15:06,636 Speaker 4: these were words that were not Genetics was not a 249 00:15:06,796 --> 00:15:12,996 Speaker 4: common word back then. The word modified organism sounded like 250 00:15:13,036 --> 00:15:18,556 Speaker 4: I remember consumers selling sounded like bugs, you know, or bacteria. 251 00:15:18,516 --> 00:15:19,756 Speaker 2: Or you know. 252 00:15:19,796 --> 00:15:21,156 Speaker 4: They were all kinds. 253 00:15:20,756 --> 00:15:24,316 Speaker 2: Of three words modified. 254 00:15:25,076 --> 00:15:28,876 Speaker 4: And you have a nuclear franken food, right. It came 255 00:15:28,916 --> 00:15:33,476 Speaker 4: from professor at Boston College and then got picked up 256 00:15:33,476 --> 00:15:35,396 Speaker 4: by the New York Times and ended up in an 257 00:15:35,476 --> 00:15:37,116 Speaker 4: up ed and off it went. 258 00:15:38,556 --> 00:15:41,916 Speaker 2: Lewis wrote, quote, if they want to sell us franken food, 259 00:15:42,156 --> 00:15:45,716 Speaker 2: perhaps it's time to gather the villagers, light some torches, 260 00:15:46,076 --> 00:15:50,316 Speaker 2: and head to the castle. Steve basically finds that everybody 261 00:15:50,316 --> 00:15:53,596 Speaker 2: has already been freaked out by the name genatically modified organisms, 262 00:15:53,596 --> 00:15:57,196 Speaker 2: and they call it franken food, and so like what 263 00:15:57,236 --> 00:15:58,876 Speaker 2: they try to do at Mattson has come up with 264 00:15:58,916 --> 00:16:01,436 Speaker 2: a story that says like this is not really that 265 00:16:01,556 --> 00:16:05,676 Speaker 2: different than what we've already done for centuries, Like think 266 00:16:05,716 --> 00:16:08,596 Speaker 2: about the way we make apples by grafting parts of 267 00:16:08,636 --> 00:16:11,476 Speaker 2: one apple tree onto another apple tree. And they come 268 00:16:11,556 --> 00:16:14,956 Speaker 2: up with these analogies, and the thing is like it 269 00:16:15,196 --> 00:16:19,276 Speaker 2: just it doesn't really stick because they've got this name 270 00:16:19,436 --> 00:16:22,236 Speaker 2: GMOs that hangs over everything. And he even talks about 271 00:16:22,276 --> 00:16:25,316 Speaker 2: how people just shortened the acronym, like pronounced it by 272 00:16:25,316 --> 00:16:28,796 Speaker 2: the acronym, like they call them GMOs. And it was this, 273 00:16:28,996 --> 00:16:32,716 Speaker 2: it was like this banner that nobody could really get past. 274 00:16:33,036 --> 00:16:37,236 Speaker 2: And what the banner meant to people is science is 275 00:16:37,276 --> 00:16:40,516 Speaker 2: involved in this. There's like some sort of like hubris, 276 00:16:40,556 --> 00:16:42,996 Speaker 2: we're treading in a place where we shouldn't tread. Like 277 00:16:43,076 --> 00:16:45,556 Speaker 2: what they were eating may look and taste like a tomato, 278 00:16:45,676 --> 00:16:47,956 Speaker 2: but it's it's just like in some fundamental way, it's not. 279 00:16:48,956 --> 00:16:54,116 Speaker 4: There was some kind of line. What they wanted to 280 00:16:54,156 --> 00:16:58,316 Speaker 4: be sure was that what they were still eating was 281 00:16:58,476 --> 00:17:05,996 Speaker 4: truly a tomato, that it somehow was not so synthetically 282 00:17:06,196 --> 00:17:10,276 Speaker 4: bred that it kind of crossed the line that it 283 00:17:10,476 --> 00:17:15,196 Speaker 4: was no longer truly a tomato, but some kind of red, 284 00:17:15,316 --> 00:17:16,236 Speaker 4: delicious fruit. 285 00:17:16,916 --> 00:17:17,636 Speaker 3: It's a zombies. 286 00:17:17,676 --> 00:17:18,716 Speaker 2: It's a zombie tomato. 287 00:17:18,876 --> 00:17:19,796 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. 288 00:17:19,916 --> 00:17:20,356 Speaker 1: It is. 289 00:17:21,236 --> 00:17:25,716 Speaker 3: They have attached one of the most kind of elemental 290 00:17:27,476 --> 00:17:30,076 Speaker 3: dystopian human fantasies. 291 00:17:30,356 --> 00:17:33,316 Speaker 2: Right right, this thing looks like what I'm familiar with, 292 00:17:33,396 --> 00:17:34,676 Speaker 2: but actually. 293 00:17:34,356 --> 00:17:37,236 Speaker 3: Yes, it has the appearance of nomalacy, but inside there 294 00:17:37,316 --> 00:17:40,996 Speaker 3: is something foreign. And I mean every you know, there's 295 00:17:41,036 --> 00:17:43,436 Speaker 3: a huge category of sci fi movies that are just 296 00:17:43,476 --> 00:17:44,156 Speaker 3: about this thing. 297 00:17:44,476 --> 00:17:47,796 Speaker 2: Yes, everyone's worried that they made the zombie tomato, and 298 00:17:47,876 --> 00:17:50,476 Speaker 2: I think basically it's like, however good The analogy is, 299 00:17:51,076 --> 00:17:53,956 Speaker 2: it's Xenica's tomato loses out, Like at one point it 300 00:17:54,036 --> 00:17:58,356 Speaker 2: has a sixty something percent it sells way better than 301 00:17:58,436 --> 00:18:03,156 Speaker 2: like the average tomato pure in UK supermarkets, and then 302 00:18:03,316 --> 00:18:07,236 Speaker 2: after some of the backlash to the flavorsaverer tomato, Zenica 303 00:18:07,476 --> 00:18:10,316 Speaker 2: like vastly loses market share at plummets. So now you 304 00:18:10,356 --> 00:18:13,876 Speaker 2: can't get a Zeneca GMO tomato on the market. I'm 305 00:18:13,876 --> 00:18:15,396 Speaker 2: sure there are all kinds of reasons, but like a 306 00:18:15,396 --> 00:18:19,396 Speaker 2: big one is that there's this huge resistance to GMO's 307 00:18:19,476 --> 00:18:20,676 Speaker 2: frank and food GMOs. 308 00:18:20,716 --> 00:18:23,796 Speaker 3: Wait, so when I buy tomatoes in them in the 309 00:18:23,836 --> 00:18:26,196 Speaker 3: supermarket today, none of them GMO. 310 00:18:27,236 --> 00:18:29,236 Speaker 2: I don't think that none of them are GMO, but 311 00:18:29,276 --> 00:18:32,956 Speaker 2: I suspect that the vast majority are not GMO, which 312 00:18:32,996 --> 00:18:34,916 Speaker 2: honestly I get. I think if you gave me a choice, 313 00:18:34,956 --> 00:18:37,596 Speaker 2: I would prefer a naturally occurring tomato, which is not 314 00:18:37,636 --> 00:18:40,036 Speaker 2: something I'm proud of. But there is something about the 315 00:18:40,076 --> 00:18:43,316 Speaker 2: intensity of the anti GMO thing that I relate less to. 316 00:18:44,116 --> 00:18:46,596 Speaker 2: This morning, I open up my morning yogurt and when 317 00:18:46,636 --> 00:18:49,876 Speaker 2: I opened the lid. On the lid, it says made 318 00:18:49,876 --> 00:18:52,876 Speaker 2: from milk from non GMO cows. It's like and it's 319 00:18:52,916 --> 00:18:54,876 Speaker 2: sort of like screaming this thing at me that I like, 320 00:18:54,876 --> 00:18:58,396 Speaker 2: it was a question I wasn't even asking. It's just like, oh, 321 00:18:58,756 --> 00:19:00,756 Speaker 2: or had I had? Like I made my friend Mutter 322 00:19:00,876 --> 00:19:02,956 Speaker 2: Pinier the other night and I use this these like 323 00:19:03,036 --> 00:19:06,796 Speaker 2: this chili spice I had and it says like non 324 00:19:06,916 --> 00:19:10,716 Speaker 2: GMO chili, and I was like, That's what didn't even 325 00:19:10,716 --> 00:19:14,116 Speaker 2: occur to me that this might be Emotionally, It's become 326 00:19:14,156 --> 00:19:19,276 Speaker 2: this rallying cry where whatever Matson wanted to happen, whatever 327 00:19:19,396 --> 00:19:22,076 Speaker 2: Zeneca wanted to happen with the way people would respond 328 00:19:22,076 --> 00:19:25,676 Speaker 2: to GMOs, the exact opposite happened. And it's because I 329 00:19:25,716 --> 00:19:28,076 Speaker 2: think like they never could change the name. 330 00:19:28,676 --> 00:19:31,556 Speaker 4: The first time I heard franken food, I was like, Okay, 331 00:19:31,756 --> 00:19:38,076 Speaker 4: this is bad. Words are very powerful, and for whatever reason, 332 00:19:38,116 --> 00:19:41,036 Speaker 4: I think that was a hard stop. 333 00:19:42,596 --> 00:19:46,796 Speaker 2: So all of this brings us to our second mistake, 334 00:19:46,996 --> 00:19:49,116 Speaker 2: the one that we are that Barb is trying to 335 00:19:49,116 --> 00:19:52,716 Speaker 2: stop us from making again, which is it's twenty eighteen. 336 00:19:53,516 --> 00:19:56,476 Speaker 2: She goes to this conference and it's all about this 337 00:19:56,516 --> 00:20:01,996 Speaker 2: thing called lab grown meat, and she's sitting there getting 338 00:20:02,036 --> 00:20:05,356 Speaker 2: all excited about this technology and then hearing this word 339 00:20:05,436 --> 00:20:08,436 Speaker 2: thrown around and she's just like, oh no, we're about 340 00:20:08,436 --> 00:20:15,596 Speaker 2: to do it again. Whiplash, whiplash. Maybe this is a 341 00:20:15,876 --> 00:20:17,556 Speaker 2: this is a good time for a commercial break. 342 00:20:18,436 --> 00:20:51,956 Speaker 1: Okay, we'll be right back. 343 00:20:49,956 --> 00:20:52,516 Speaker 2: All right. So back with Barb at the lab grown 344 00:20:52,556 --> 00:20:55,476 Speaker 2: meat conference, and she keeps hearing these names for it, 345 00:20:55,756 --> 00:20:59,316 Speaker 2: lab grown meat, cell based meat, and she's like, it's 346 00:20:59,356 --> 00:21:02,116 Speaker 2: happening again. So how did you go about trying to 347 00:21:02,156 --> 00:21:05,716 Speaker 2: solve this problem because you basically, let's not make the 348 00:21:05,796 --> 00:21:08,596 Speaker 2: GMO mistake twice. That's right. 349 00:21:09,276 --> 00:21:12,196 Speaker 5: It was really a rallying cry for everyone on the team. 350 00:21:12,836 --> 00:21:16,676 Speaker 2: Imagine if it were lab grown organisms. 351 00:21:16,956 --> 00:21:20,356 Speaker 5: It that makes my stomach lip not so happy. 352 00:21:21,036 --> 00:21:23,556 Speaker 2: So she starts doing the mats and things. She gets 353 00:21:23,556 --> 00:21:26,316 Speaker 2: a bunch of people together in a room. She starts testing, 354 00:21:26,396 --> 00:21:28,396 Speaker 2: how do you feel about this? What do you think? 355 00:21:28,476 --> 00:21:29,436 Speaker 2: How does it look to you? 356 00:21:30,116 --> 00:21:31,996 Speaker 5: It was one of my friends that I was trying 357 00:21:32,036 --> 00:21:35,676 Speaker 5: to explain the technology to her, and she said, oh, no, 358 00:21:36,516 --> 00:21:40,716 Speaker 5: I don't think God wants us to eat that interesting, Yes, 359 00:21:40,796 --> 00:21:43,116 Speaker 5: one of my friends. I don't even know how to 360 00:21:43,156 --> 00:21:46,036 Speaker 5: explain it. But it did occur to me that there 361 00:21:46,156 --> 00:21:52,236 Speaker 5: could be some very different opinions. And turns out that 362 00:21:52,836 --> 00:21:58,716 Speaker 5: even to this day, there is a very political skew 363 00:21:59,516 --> 00:22:02,636 Speaker 5: for whether or not you're interested in this kind of 364 00:22:02,716 --> 00:22:03,316 Speaker 5: a product. 365 00:22:03,556 --> 00:22:07,676 Speaker 2: Florida, in fact, has banned this product, and Alabama and. 366 00:22:08,076 --> 00:22:10,996 Speaker 5: Yes, so yeah, but it's now become a political issue. 367 00:22:11,036 --> 00:22:12,956 Speaker 5: So it was like a like a religious thing that 368 00:22:13,076 --> 00:22:13,756 Speaker 5: something could. 369 00:22:13,556 --> 00:22:17,156 Speaker 2: Come political somehow in a weird way. It's like it 370 00:22:17,756 --> 00:22:20,276 Speaker 2: plays in the cluster of neurons that has something to 371 00:22:20,316 --> 00:22:23,276 Speaker 2: do with abortion. Also, like there's like in vitro is 372 00:22:23,316 --> 00:22:26,116 Speaker 2: a word that applies to both of these, to the 373 00:22:26,116 --> 00:22:28,236 Speaker 2: gray areas of both of these universes. 374 00:22:28,476 --> 00:22:32,036 Speaker 5: I would say, you know, the ven diagram of people 375 00:22:32,116 --> 00:22:38,076 Speaker 5: who are anti abortion are going to be anti cultivated 376 00:22:38,116 --> 00:22:38,436 Speaker 5: meat too. 377 00:22:38,476 --> 00:22:41,316 Speaker 2: It's really interesting, anti lab road meat. 378 00:22:42,196 --> 00:22:44,396 Speaker 3: So what does she does? She have a tone that 379 00:22:44,476 --> 00:22:45,196 Speaker 3: she wants to use. 380 00:22:45,876 --> 00:22:51,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, she gets these people together to start thinking about 381 00:22:51,356 --> 00:22:53,516 Speaker 2: the story and what name can emerge from the story 382 00:22:53,676 --> 00:22:55,116 Speaker 2: somewhere better than others. 383 00:22:55,756 --> 00:22:59,156 Speaker 5: Okay, well here's I'm sorry. 384 00:22:59,436 --> 00:23:02,276 Speaker 2: Nano pastured meat got five votes? 385 00:23:03,476 --> 00:23:16,636 Speaker 5: What unbounded meat, slaughter free, propagated, minimalist agriculture. I don't 386 00:23:16,636 --> 00:23:21,036 Speaker 5: remember these celebration No, definitely not. 387 00:23:22,036 --> 00:23:23,676 Speaker 2: You know, we went through this huge list of names. 388 00:23:23,716 --> 00:23:26,716 Speaker 2: I think she has something like one hundred, and it 389 00:23:26,836 --> 00:23:29,436 Speaker 2: is a really hard problem to solve, like what to 390 00:23:29,556 --> 00:23:31,716 Speaker 2: name this thing? Because the whole challenges you have to 391 00:23:31,716 --> 00:23:33,436 Speaker 2: come up with a new name for a thing that 392 00:23:33,516 --> 00:23:35,956 Speaker 2: doesn't foreground the fact that this is a new thing 393 00:23:36,676 --> 00:23:41,236 Speaker 2: and it's just this that paradox inherent in the project. Right, 394 00:23:41,796 --> 00:23:43,996 Speaker 2: So then the question is meat, like what is how 395 00:23:43,996 --> 00:23:46,036 Speaker 2: do you package it such that it's not like they're 396 00:23:46,116 --> 00:23:48,516 Speaker 2: lying to me this was grown in a lab. You're like, 397 00:23:48,556 --> 00:23:51,516 Speaker 2: this is slightly different. But they do land on this 398 00:23:51,756 --> 00:23:55,556 Speaker 2: one name that splits the difference. I think pretty well, 399 00:23:56,396 --> 00:23:57,916 Speaker 2: do you remember when you hit on the one that 400 00:23:57,956 --> 00:23:58,636 Speaker 2: you landed on. 401 00:23:59,356 --> 00:24:02,436 Speaker 5: We had a short list, and I think once we 402 00:24:02,476 --> 00:24:06,236 Speaker 5: got to the short list, it seemed like a no brainer. 403 00:24:06,636 --> 00:24:07,396 Speaker 2: And what was it? 404 00:24:07,436 --> 00:24:09,676 Speaker 5: And that was cultivated meat? 405 00:24:10,276 --> 00:24:12,796 Speaker 2: How does how does that name strike through? Well? 406 00:24:12,916 --> 00:24:16,116 Speaker 3: On the list of names that she was considering, the 407 00:24:16,196 --> 00:24:18,476 Speaker 3: one I liked the most was minimalist meat. 408 00:24:19,836 --> 00:24:23,396 Speaker 2: Because it's it's it's the it's the claim about it's 409 00:24:23,436 --> 00:24:26,756 Speaker 2: more about it's foregrounding the benefits. 410 00:24:27,516 --> 00:24:31,036 Speaker 3: And also it's capturing the kind of virtue of this, 411 00:24:31,716 --> 00:24:34,396 Speaker 3: which is this is meat that's leaving a much smaller 412 00:24:34,396 --> 00:24:39,716 Speaker 3: footprint on everything. It's it's and minimalists suggests a kind 413 00:24:39,756 --> 00:24:44,156 Speaker 3: of clarity and elegance and simplicity in the way it's produced. 414 00:24:44,316 --> 00:24:46,836 Speaker 3: I mean a bit about cattle farming is this is 415 00:24:46,836 --> 00:24:48,756 Speaker 3: insanely messy and convoluted. 416 00:24:49,236 --> 00:24:49,636 Speaker 2: I don't know. 417 00:24:49,676 --> 00:24:52,316 Speaker 3: I like that, but I'm not, you know, I would be. 418 00:24:52,476 --> 00:24:54,796 Speaker 3: I'm not. I'm not the typical consumer here. I'm I 419 00:24:54,876 --> 00:24:57,956 Speaker 3: was already pro this before I even needed a new name. 420 00:24:58,476 --> 00:25:02,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think like minimalists. I would I like minimalists. 421 00:25:02,756 --> 00:25:04,716 Speaker 3: I like cultivated, You like cultivated? 422 00:25:05,356 --> 00:25:06,276 Speaker 2: I like cultivated? 423 00:25:06,396 --> 00:25:09,036 Speaker 3: Yeah, I like it. Well, there is a lovely pl 424 00:25:09,196 --> 00:25:12,236 Speaker 3: lay on a cultivated person as a sophisticated, you know, 425 00:25:12,316 --> 00:25:14,356 Speaker 3: as a kind of person of elegance. 426 00:25:14,596 --> 00:25:16,916 Speaker 2: Well, and I think also like there's there's the old 427 00:25:16,956 --> 00:25:22,076 Speaker 2: truism about lawmaking and food. You know, how the sausage 428 00:25:22,116 --> 00:25:25,876 Speaker 2: gets made, the lesson of which is that nobody nobody 429 00:25:25,916 --> 00:25:28,636 Speaker 2: wants to know how the sausage gets made. That the 430 00:25:28,676 --> 00:25:31,956 Speaker 2: sausage becomes less appetizing if you know how it gets made. 431 00:25:32,116 --> 00:25:35,756 Speaker 2: And so there's something it like genetically modified organism really 432 00:25:35,836 --> 00:25:38,996 Speaker 2: spells out how the sausage gets made. Lab grown meat 433 00:25:39,316 --> 00:25:42,516 Speaker 2: spells out how the sausage gets made. Cultivated meat, I 434 00:25:42,556 --> 00:25:48,876 Speaker 2: think is obscuring that in an you know, it signals 435 00:25:48,876 --> 00:25:52,356 Speaker 2: that it's different. It's not misrepresenting, but it's also not 436 00:25:52,596 --> 00:25:54,556 Speaker 2: like throwing the peach redish in your face, which I 437 00:25:54,556 --> 00:25:56,756 Speaker 2: think is kind of crucial because at the end of 438 00:25:56,756 --> 00:26:00,276 Speaker 2: the day, people basically don't want to know a lot 439 00:26:00,436 --> 00:26:03,916 Speaker 2: about how their food gets to them. But that is 440 00:26:03,956 --> 00:26:07,036 Speaker 2: why she's trying to change the name, because it's like, 441 00:26:07,116 --> 00:26:10,076 Speaker 2: can you obscure? Is there a way to like hide 442 00:26:10,116 --> 00:26:12,996 Speaker 2: the words that make it clear that this is an 443 00:26:13,036 --> 00:26:16,316 Speaker 2: innovation and not just she's the way things should be. 444 00:26:16,356 --> 00:26:19,996 Speaker 2: She's absolutely right and I agree. I remember being really 445 00:26:19,996 --> 00:26:22,796 Speaker 2: excited and being like, I can't wait to try that. 446 00:26:24,276 --> 00:26:28,716 Speaker 2: And so, obviously, because Mattson has unnecessary connections, I went 447 00:26:28,836 --> 00:26:29,436 Speaker 2: to try it. 448 00:26:29,516 --> 00:26:30,316 Speaker 1: Oh, I tried it. 449 00:26:30,796 --> 00:26:31,396 Speaker 2: I tried it. 450 00:26:31,636 --> 00:26:33,156 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I didn't know that. And now I 451 00:26:33,196 --> 00:26:36,956 Speaker 3: feel even more bummed about letting you go. 452 00:26:43,156 --> 00:26:46,476 Speaker 2: So I did. I had to try. I had to 453 00:26:46,476 --> 00:26:50,436 Speaker 2: try like grim meat, sorry, cultivated meat, ben cultivated meat. 454 00:26:51,116 --> 00:26:55,716 Speaker 2: So I would say the cultivated meat industry is uh 455 00:26:55,916 --> 00:26:59,476 Speaker 2: somewhat downtrodden these days, but there are still people doing 456 00:26:59,516 --> 00:27:01,516 Speaker 2: this and figuring out how to scale it. And and 457 00:27:01,556 --> 00:27:05,996 Speaker 2: the big one is a place called Upside Foods. So 458 00:27:06,396 --> 00:27:11,516 Speaker 2: they are conveniently located in Emeryville, so also in the 459 00:27:11,516 --> 00:27:15,396 Speaker 2: Bay Area. And I went there and they had these 460 00:27:15,476 --> 00:27:18,996 Speaker 2: like huge tanks, and I think they're like stainless steel 461 00:27:19,076 --> 00:27:23,396 Speaker 2: tanks basically on an industrial floor. And in these tanks 462 00:27:23,796 --> 00:27:28,596 Speaker 2: they are using cells taken from a chicken egg years 463 00:27:28,636 --> 00:27:34,956 Speaker 2: ago to brew cultivate this meat at scale chicken and 464 00:27:35,676 --> 00:27:38,516 Speaker 2: chicken in this case. And so I met with a 465 00:27:38,556 --> 00:27:42,036 Speaker 2: woman there named Aaron Santi, vice president of PR and 466 00:27:42,076 --> 00:27:43,956 Speaker 2: Communications at Upside Foods. 467 00:27:44,596 --> 00:27:47,156 Speaker 8: Honestly, I think the number one thing to me, is 468 00:27:47,196 --> 00:27:48,036 Speaker 8: tasting is bleeving? 469 00:27:48,596 --> 00:27:48,796 Speaker 2: Right? 470 00:27:50,316 --> 00:27:52,476 Speaker 8: People ask us all the time what does it taste like? 471 00:27:52,556 --> 00:27:55,116 Speaker 8: And the most common thing someone says after they try it, 472 00:27:55,156 --> 00:27:57,556 Speaker 8: We'll see I'm preempting this before you try. 473 00:27:57,396 --> 00:27:58,196 Speaker 2: It, like chicken. 474 00:27:58,356 --> 00:28:01,116 Speaker 8: Taste like chicken, And we say, funny thing that because 475 00:28:01,156 --> 00:28:04,436 Speaker 8: it is chicken, right, And I think that's a big 476 00:28:04,476 --> 00:28:04,996 Speaker 8: part of it. 477 00:28:05,036 --> 00:28:07,596 Speaker 7: I mean, at the end of the day, what we do. 478 00:28:07,956 --> 00:28:10,956 Speaker 8: And the innovation that has led to us being able 479 00:28:10,956 --> 00:28:13,796 Speaker 8: to do this has tons of science and technology at 480 00:28:13,796 --> 00:28:14,436 Speaker 8: its core, but. 481 00:28:14,436 --> 00:28:16,636 Speaker 7: Ultimately, we make food. 482 00:28:16,756 --> 00:28:18,716 Speaker 8: It's something you eat, and so what better way to 483 00:28:18,716 --> 00:28:20,716 Speaker 8: have you connect with that than have the opportunity to 484 00:28:20,796 --> 00:28:21,236 Speaker 8: try it. 485 00:28:21,436 --> 00:28:24,196 Speaker 3: So you go in there and they prepare in front 486 00:28:24,196 --> 00:28:27,076 Speaker 3: of you. They take their meat and it looks just 487 00:28:27,156 --> 00:28:28,076 Speaker 3: like chicken. 488 00:28:28,956 --> 00:28:30,356 Speaker 2: Tell me what I'm looking at? 489 00:28:30,476 --> 00:28:31,076 Speaker 7: Yes, okay. 490 00:28:31,156 --> 00:28:35,196 Speaker 8: So we have a little appetizer which is a buttered 491 00:28:35,276 --> 00:28:39,676 Speaker 8: chicken samosa and then this is a butter milk fried 492 00:28:39,716 --> 00:28:40,476 Speaker 8: chicken sandwich. 493 00:28:40,676 --> 00:28:43,756 Speaker 2: Both look like the normal version of the product. 494 00:28:45,076 --> 00:28:48,276 Speaker 7: And it's got a little mint chutney on top. 495 00:29:00,676 --> 00:29:01,756 Speaker 2: Okay, that is delicious? 496 00:29:01,876 --> 00:29:03,556 Speaker 7: Did I call it? Does it taste like chicken? 497 00:29:03,836 --> 00:29:09,476 Speaker 2: That is seriously delicious? That's a really good one. Credible, 498 00:29:09,476 --> 00:29:12,436 Speaker 2: it tasted exactly like normal chicken. Granted they have a 499 00:29:12,756 --> 00:29:16,076 Speaker 2: very excellent chef on staff. But if you had not 500 00:29:16,236 --> 00:29:20,796 Speaker 2: told me, if I were not in this pristine, futuristic 501 00:29:20,916 --> 00:29:24,436 Speaker 2: place where they're making this thing, if I didn't know 502 00:29:24,516 --> 00:29:27,956 Speaker 2: the whole story, I would have had no questions. I 503 00:29:27,956 --> 00:29:32,996 Speaker 2: would not have wondered was this chicken produced differently than 504 00:29:33,076 --> 00:29:34,996 Speaker 2: the chicken I get at a fast food place that 505 00:29:35,036 --> 00:29:36,236 Speaker 2: comes from god knows where. 506 00:29:36,756 --> 00:29:40,276 Speaker 3: What did the people at Upside say about the name 507 00:29:40,316 --> 00:29:41,636 Speaker 3: in question? What do they call it? 508 00:29:42,236 --> 00:29:43,516 Speaker 2: They call it cultivated meat. 509 00:29:43,596 --> 00:29:45,916 Speaker 3: So Barb one as one of the day Barb. 510 00:29:45,716 --> 00:29:47,836 Speaker 2: Was able to basically get like a coalition of people 511 00:29:47,876 --> 00:29:52,156 Speaker 2: together through the people who are hosting that conference and 512 00:29:52,236 --> 00:29:54,396 Speaker 2: like get a lot of buy in from the people 513 00:29:54,436 --> 00:29:57,596 Speaker 2: in this space to like use this term cultivated meat. 514 00:29:58,116 --> 00:30:01,716 Speaker 2: And so we'll see what happens in the future if 515 00:30:01,796 --> 00:30:05,716 Speaker 2: that can actually that plus the storytelling around it, can 516 00:30:05,796 --> 00:30:11,396 Speaker 2: actually overcome people's anxieties. But to me, I think like 517 00:30:11,516 --> 00:30:14,556 Speaker 2: what Upside seem committed to is the idea that like 518 00:30:14,636 --> 00:30:18,076 Speaker 2: tasting is believing that where they want to start here 519 00:30:18,236 --> 00:30:21,436 Speaker 2: is not in packaged goods that you get off the shelf. 520 00:30:21,476 --> 00:30:24,556 Speaker 2: But basically like with restaurants, So you will go to 521 00:30:24,596 --> 00:30:27,916 Speaker 2: a restaurant, you'll try this, you'll know you're trying something different, 522 00:30:27,916 --> 00:30:30,276 Speaker 2: and you'll have the experience that I had, which is like, Okay, 523 00:30:30,316 --> 00:30:33,116 Speaker 2: this is like it's it's quite good and and like 524 00:30:33,156 --> 00:30:34,556 Speaker 2: in no way doesn't taste different to me. 525 00:30:35,316 --> 00:30:38,396 Speaker 3: Do they think they'll be safer? Do you get do 526 00:30:38,436 --> 00:30:41,276 Speaker 3: you get salmonella outbreaks? And there's no any biotic. 527 00:30:41,676 --> 00:30:45,556 Speaker 2: You don't get salmonella outbreaks from from from cultivated meat. 528 00:30:46,356 --> 00:30:48,676 Speaker 2: And in fact, they're like in the future, you could 529 00:30:48,676 --> 00:30:51,716 Speaker 2: imagine things like low cholesterol beef. So if you like, 530 00:30:51,836 --> 00:30:53,956 Speaker 2: for if your doctor says like cut down your cholesterol, 531 00:30:53,956 --> 00:30:55,716 Speaker 2: that you want to keep eating beef, like, there are 532 00:30:55,796 --> 00:30:59,436 Speaker 2: ways to handle this process such that you make a 533 00:30:59,436 --> 00:31:05,116 Speaker 2: healthier piece of meat. So they're now doing this at scale, 534 00:31:05,956 --> 00:31:08,796 Speaker 2: a greater scale than they've ever done before. And then 535 00:31:08,836 --> 00:31:11,236 Speaker 2: it'll be a question of can we get the story right, 536 00:31:11,236 --> 00:31:15,196 Speaker 2: can we get the communication right? Yeah, and I think 537 00:31:15,596 --> 00:31:18,236 Speaker 2: cultivated meat we'll see, but at least it's an attempt 538 00:31:18,236 --> 00:31:19,676 Speaker 2: to not make the same mistake twice. 539 00:31:19,876 --> 00:31:22,796 Speaker 3: I am so down for this. I wish Barb every 540 00:31:22,796 --> 00:31:26,956 Speaker 3: good luck in her campaign, and I, for one will 541 00:31:26,956 --> 00:31:29,516 Speaker 3: be lining up to have my cultivated steak. 542 00:31:29,916 --> 00:31:32,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's just hope bad when that steak hits the market. 543 00:31:32,716 --> 00:31:34,876 Speaker 2: There's a name in this story that makes you want 544 00:31:34,916 --> 00:31:47,156 Speaker 2: to eat it. Revisionist History is produced by Nina Bird 545 00:31:47,236 --> 00:31:51,636 Speaker 2: Lawrence and Lucy Sullivan. Our editor is Karen Chakerji, fact 546 00:31:51,716 --> 00:31:56,036 Speaker 2: checking by Angelie Mercado. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. 547 00:31:56,516 --> 00:32:00,796 Speaker 2: Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence, original music by Luis Skara, 548 00:32:01,236 --> 00:32:05,636 Speaker 2: Sound design and mastering by Marcelo di' OLIVERA special thanks 549 00:32:05,756 --> 00:32:08,876 Speaker 2: to Justin Shimmick. I'm Ben Mattahaffrey.