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Speaker 1: Welcome to Unaddiction the Podcast. My name is doctor Zinga Harrison.

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Speaker 1: I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction

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Speaker 1: medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health.

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Speaker 1: On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead

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Speaker 1: to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery.

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Speaker 1: Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that

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Speaker 1: have helped them along the way, and the formulas that

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Speaker 1: allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time.

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Speaker 1: I am so excited to tell you about my book, Unaddictioned.

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Speaker 1: Six mind changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, is

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Speaker 1: now available from Union Square and Company or.

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Speaker 2: Wherever books are sold.

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Speaker 1: Aaron Carr is an author and advocate known for her

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Speaker 1: writing on addiction recovery, mental health, parenting.

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Speaker 2: And relationships.

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Speaker 1: She knows firsthand the challenges of addiction recovery and has

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Speaker 1: established herself as a respected voice in the national conversation

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Speaker 1: about the overdose epidemic. We touched on so many things,

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Speaker 1: from her personal experience with fearing addiction would prevent her

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Speaker 1: from being a good mother, to racism in drug policy,

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Speaker 1: and her ardent support of Harm Reduction. Thank you so

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Speaker 1: much Aaron for joining me on the Addiction I should

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Speaker 1: say Unaddiction podcast. So changing the way people with addiction

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Speaker 1: get treated in this company, not just like by healthcare,

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Speaker 1: but just by people in general has been a passion

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Speaker 1: for my whole career.

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Speaker 2: And so I wrote this book called Unaddiction.

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Speaker 1: It's coming out in January, and we're doing this podcast

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Speaker 1: to raise awareness of the book, which I hope will

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Speaker 1: start to change kind of the narrative and conversation. And

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Speaker 1: what we want to do here with the podcast is

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Speaker 1: talk about unaddiction.

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Speaker 2: What do we need to unlearn that we think we

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Speaker 2: know about addiction?

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Speaker 1: What are the stigmas that we need to undo because

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Speaker 1: they're killing people? What are the conversations that we need

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Speaker 1: to uncover so that we can be talking about things

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Speaker 1: that will actually help us turn the tide on this

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Speaker 1: crisis that we have.

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Speaker 2: And so with that intro to.

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Speaker 1: Why we're here on the podcast, we're having people who

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Speaker 1: have their own journey and just hoping to learn what

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Speaker 1: your journey has been and what your formula is today

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Speaker 1: in case other people listening that would help them get

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Speaker 1: on the journey or put a piece in their formula

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Speaker 1: that maybe they hadn't thought about.

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Speaker 3: Great, Well, thank you for having me. I'm always happy

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Speaker 3: to talk about addiction, especially when it comes to talking

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Speaker 3: about the ways in which we've been sort of indoctrinated

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Speaker 3: to treat addiction and think about addiction. And you know,

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Speaker 3: it's something that's near and dear to my heart, not

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Speaker 3: only as a person recovery, but as a parent. So

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Speaker 3: delighted to be here.

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Speaker 2: Awesome.

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Speaker 1: Well, Aaron, can you tell the listeners who you are

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Speaker 1: and how you came to be who you are and

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Speaker 1: what your life is like these days?

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Speaker 3: Sure. So my name is Aaron Carr. I'm an author

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Speaker 3: and advice columnist mother. I live in New York City.

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Speaker 3: I wrote a book that came out in twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: called Strung Out, which is a book about my journey

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Speaker 3: through addiction and recovery. I'll give you a quick, as

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Speaker 3: quick as possible synopsis of.

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Speaker 2: My quick s. You don't have to be quick that time.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 3: I grew up in an affluent suburb of Los Angeles,

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Speaker 3: and when I was eight years old, my parents were

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Speaker 3: separated and I was going through a period where I

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Speaker 3: was starting to have a lot of anxiety and feelings

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Speaker 3: about something that had happened years before that when I

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Speaker 3: was four that I wasn't very clear on at the

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Speaker 3: time because I was eight, and I had one afternoon

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Speaker 3: where I heard my mother on the phone. She was

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Speaker 3: in the other room, and I could hear she was

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Speaker 3: upset on the phone, and I started having a panic attack.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know it was a panic attack at the time,

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Speaker 3: but that's what I was having.

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Speaker 2: I went for eight.

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Speaker 3: I was eight.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I went into the bathroom and I opened the medicine

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Speaker 3: cabinet and I don't even know what I was looking for,

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Speaker 3: but there was We had a bottle of expired darbasset

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Speaker 3: with my grandmother's name on it. It must have been from

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Speaker 3: a surgery, but had been sitting there for a long time.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: I'm assuming my mother held onto it in case anybody needed,

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Speaker 3: you know, for a headache or something. And there was

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Speaker 3: a label on it that said may cause drowsiness. And

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Speaker 3: I had no idea what the medication was. I just

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Speaker 3: was like, oh, drowsy, I want to drowsy. So I

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Speaker 3: took one, and I really liked what it did for me.

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Speaker 3: It gave me like a sort of layer of protection

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Speaker 3: between myself and my feelings and from that point forward.

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Speaker 3: Probably not right away, but you know, over the next

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Speaker 3: few years, if I was in somebody's bathroom and they

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Speaker 3: had something with a do not do with a drowsy

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Speaker 3: label or don't operate heavy machinery, I would take it.

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Speaker 3: And because I'm you know, old, they didn't have child

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Speaker 3: proof caps on them then, or I don't remember them,

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Speaker 3: I didn't have any trouble getting into pill bottles, so

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Speaker 3: I would kind of just tuck them away so that

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Speaker 3: if I had a panic attack, I had something to take.

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Speaker 3: And I remember having such a sort of deep seated

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Speaker 3: shame that I had the anxiety that I had. I

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Speaker 3: was already having a lot of ideation and thoughts of

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Speaker 3: self harm, and these were sort of like my emergency

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Speaker 3: stash I could go to when I felt that way.

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Speaker 3: When I reached the age of thirteen, there was a

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Speaker 3: confluence of things that happened, you know, like for many

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Speaker 3: young female identifying people, I felt like I was getting

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Speaker 3: sort of mixed messages. You know, I wasn't conscious of this,

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Speaker 3: but I looking back, there was sort of this these

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Speaker 3: mixed messages. I was suddenly five foot eight, I suddenly

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Speaker 3: was aware of the power that being young and female

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Speaker 3: gave me, and it was something I had not felt before.

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Speaker 3: On sort of an unconscious level, I understood that that

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Speaker 3: was currency, and so there was the sort of the

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Speaker 3: introduction of like flirting with boys usually older than me,

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Speaker 3: and also feeling very insecure about myself. I didn't feel attractive,

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Speaker 3: I didn't feel I felt that there was something fundamentally

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Speaker 3: wrong with me, and as a child, I felt like

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Speaker 3: I had this, you know, overarching feeling like if people

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Speaker 3: could really see who I was, they wouldn't love me

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Speaker 3: because I'm a monster. And I wasn't cognizant of where

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Speaker 3: it exactly came from. I just knew that there was

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Speaker 3: something fundamentally wrong with me. So I on a skiing.

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Speaker 2: You how old by this time, Aaron.

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Speaker 3: I was thirteen. I had just turned thirteen. So it's

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Speaker 3: a week after my thirteenth birthday. I had made arrangements

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Speaker 3: with somebody i'd met like nine months earlier on a

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Speaker 3: ski trip who was older. He was sixteen. I had

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Speaker 3: made arrangements to go out on a date with him.

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Speaker 3: I did not tell my mother I was a competitive equestrian,

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Speaker 3: and so I had told her I was spending the

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Speaker 3: night at a friend's house from the barn. She dropped

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Speaker 3: me off. I had my lesson and then I got

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Speaker 3: ready and he picked me up. Went to his house.

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Speaker 3: He lived in Beverly Hills, and I told him I

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Speaker 3: lied and said that I was fifteen, but I had

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Speaker 3: really just turned thirteen. We went to his house. His

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Speaker 3: parents weren't there, and you know, as we're sitting there talking,

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Speaker 3: I just like the anxiety was building and building and building,

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Speaker 3: and I suddenly we were listening to music in his

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Speaker 3: room and I blurted out, do you have any vik

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Speaker 3: it inner Vallium? And he was kind of surprised that

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Speaker 3: I asked him that, and he's like no, And then

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Speaker 3: you know, after a couple of minutes, he's like, if

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Speaker 3: you ever tried heroin? And I said no, I mean

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Speaker 3: I knew what it was. I vaguely knew what it was, right,

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Speaker 3: but in a limited way, from like reading books. And

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Speaker 3: I was an early reader, so I had read I

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Speaker 3: had read books where like drugs came into the picture,

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Speaker 3: but I hadn't really thought about them in any concrete way.

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Speaker 3: And he said, you know, do you want to try it?

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Speaker 3: And I was like sure. I mean, there was no

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Speaker 3: hesitation for me, and you know, as I've talked to

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Speaker 3: people over the years during my recovery, like from my

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Speaker 3: parents to you know, strangers, there's there's been a constant

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Speaker 3: sort of like struggle to understand like how somebody makes

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Speaker 3: that decision. And the way that I always explained it

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Speaker 3: is that the addiction was there before drugs came in

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Speaker 3: to the picture, and there wasn't a question for me

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Speaker 3: because I just wanted. I would have taken anything to

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Speaker 3: make me feel something other than how I felt good, bad,

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Speaker 3: good or bad. So that was the I On that night,

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Speaker 3: ten days after my thirteenth birthday, I tried heroin for

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Speaker 3: the first time and lost my virginity. And I had

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Speaker 3: a very you know, sort of strange experience with that too,

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Speaker 3: because I became sort of more aware that like that

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Speaker 3: it wasn't the first time that I had been in

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Speaker 3: a sexual situation. And as I sort of you know

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Speaker 3: got into my teenage years, realized that the truth was

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Speaker 3: I had been molested when I was for or by

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Speaker 3: an adolescent boy who was the son of family friends.

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Speaker 3: It happened repeatedly, and I had never told anyone. I

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Speaker 3: think that for me, that was really kind of at

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Speaker 3: the root of why I thought there was something wrong

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Speaker 3: with me. And so from that point forward, I started

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Speaker 3: using heroin with my boyfriend. He became my boyfriend on weekends.

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Speaker 3: But you know, it was it didn't get out of

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Speaker 3: control right away. I was hiding it all through. You know,

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Speaker 3: for like a two and a half year period, I

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Speaker 3: was using drugs, mostly just heroines, some cocaine, never alcohol

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Speaker 3: or marijuana. Was just drugs and end pills. Continued using pills,

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Speaker 3: but you know, I had you know, straight a's, I

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Speaker 3: was popular, had a lot of friends. I was a

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Speaker 3: year leader, a volleyball player, a competitive equestrian. So throughout

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Speaker 3: my teenage years I was using off, you know, using

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Speaker 3: if I wasn't. I stopped using heroin when I was fifteen,

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Speaker 3: but I continued taking a lot of pills, a lot

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Speaker 3: of you know, crystal math, different things like that. And

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Speaker 3: then in my early twenties, at twenty one, I started

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Speaker 3: using heroin again again. Came on like the heels of

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Speaker 3: like it was an emotional sort of like breakup kind

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Speaker 3: of thing, and that's when I started using. When I

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Speaker 3: was twenty three, the person who I had been upset

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Speaker 3: over and I had gotten back together. We were in

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Speaker 3: a long distance relationship between Paris and Los Angeles. He

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Speaker 3: came to Los Angeles, we were engaged to be married,

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Speaker 3: and after he was there for a few weeks, he

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Speaker 3: caught me, like literally caught me using drugs, and.

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Speaker 2: So he had no idea.

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Speaker 3: He had no idea, nobody. I mean, for ten years,

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Speaker 3: between thirteen to twenty three, I hid this other than

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Speaker 3: from a couple of people who I confided in, From

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Speaker 3: every friend, family member, teachers, nobody knew, and people were

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Speaker 3: shocked in my family and definitely among a lot of

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Speaker 3: my friends. And I you know, that's one of the things.

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Speaker 3: I think that part of the reason that I hid

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Speaker 3: so successfully for ten years is because I didn't look

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Speaker 3: like what their image of a drug addict looked like.

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Speaker 1: Right, And so let's stay here for a second, because

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Speaker 1: spot On, that's one of the things we think we

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Speaker 1: know that we unlearn is quote unquote what a person

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Speaker 1: with addiction looks like. And I think the other thing

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Speaker 1: that really struck me, you ran it down, like spot On,

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Speaker 1: You're like, I was a cheerleader, volleyball player, competitive equestrian,

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Speaker 1: I had straight a's, I had a lot of friends.

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Speaker 1: All of the things we use two that are performative

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Speaker 1: to tell us we don't need to be worried about

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Speaker 1: a person that aligns us to There had to be

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Speaker 1: signs that we just couldn't see because we've been programmed.

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Speaker 1: Like if you have good grades and you're playing a sport,

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Speaker 1: everything is great.

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Speaker 2: But that pain. I really love what you said.

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Speaker 1: You said the addiction was there before I ever picked

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Speaker 1: up a drug.

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Speaker 2: I talk about this concept.

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Speaker 1: You know. People are like, the opioid crisis was driven

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Speaker 1: by the physical pain crisis, and I'm like, the opioid

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Speaker 1: crisis was driven is driven by an emotional pain crisis?

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Speaker 1: Been there, yeah, and so like, yeah, heroin is not

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Speaker 1: a risky decision when you're sitting in the amount of

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Speaker 1: pain you had been sitting in for five full years,

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Speaker 1: really since you were four, but cong you know, consciously

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Speaker 1: for five four years by the time you got to that.

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Speaker 3: Point, right, And you know, I mean I say often

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Speaker 3: to people that like, heroin prevented me from killing myself,

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Speaker 3: And I'm not suggesting that it's a solution for people. However,

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Speaker 3: I didn't have the tools. I didn't feel like I

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Speaker 3: could go to my parents because I had so much

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Speaker 3: shame about it. I just didn't feel like there was

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Speaker 3: anyone I could turn to, and I had to if

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Speaker 3: I was going to survive, I had to figure this out.

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Speaker 3: And so it really was a means of survival for me.

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Speaker 3: And I really appreciate what you said about the opioid crisis, because,

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Speaker 3: you know, I do a lot of speaking with legislators

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Speaker 3: about drug policy reforms, speaking with mental health professionals, people

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Speaker 3: in the medical industry, law enforcement, and parents. And one

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Speaker 3: of the you know, biggest failures in our country around

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Speaker 3: drug policy is the idea of the war on drugs

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Speaker 3: and then later on this sort of like let's punish

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Speaker 3: pharmaceutical companies. That is not to say that they did

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Speaker 3: not market things and take advantage of a situation and

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Speaker 3: that there were pill mills and all of that. Yes,

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Speaker 3: but it is never a supply issue. It is always

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Speaker 3: a demand issue. And the reason that we have the

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Speaker 3: proliferation of fentanyl in the drug market and now xylazine

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Speaker 3: in the drug market is one result of our failed

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Speaker 3: war on drugs and this idea that we're going to

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Speaker 3: name fenttional a weapon of mass destruction, and that's going

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Speaker 3: to somehow like and we're going to put drug dealers

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Speaker 3: in jail for life sentences is the most ridiculous waste

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Speaker 3: of money and ruining more lives because it's not it's

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Speaker 3: just going to We're going to find other things to

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Speaker 3: put into drugs. So the reason that you know, part

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Speaker 3: of the reason that fentanyl became such a flooded the

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Speaker 3: market is that, of course it's it's you can smuggle

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Speaker 3: in the chemicals to make fentanyl in much smaller amounts

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Speaker 3: than you know, having a poppy field, cultivating, cultivating the plants,

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Speaker 3: and then smuggling large amounts of drugs into the country.

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Speaker 3: This is not the fault of Mexico. This is not

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Speaker 3: the fault of China. This is not because we need

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Speaker 3: stricter orders. This is because we have a mental health

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Speaker 3: crisis largely based on the systemic failure to support people

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Speaker 3: on every level.

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Speaker 1: And starting so early in childhood, literally before you're born.

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Speaker 2: It starts.

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Speaker 3: Yes, we spend ten times the amount we spend on

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Speaker 3: drug prevention on incarcerating people for drug related offenses per year.

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Speaker 3: If we took one one hundredth of our military budget

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Speaker 3: or one one hundredth of what we pay private prison

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Speaker 3: you know, pay to the private prison system to incarcerate folks,

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Speaker 3: we would be in a much different position. There is

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Speaker 3: not a one size fits all solution in my opinion

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Speaker 3: to treating addiction. There is, you know, I'm skeptical even

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Speaker 3: to the efficacy of rehabs. I think that it's really

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Speaker 3: about long term care support. And I mean, we'll get there.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure as we talk and get there.

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Speaker 1: Let's get there now. So you're kind of two things.

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Speaker 1: You have pinging in my head. So the book is

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Speaker 1: laid out in these six conversations, and it's really about

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Speaker 1: biological risk. It's empowering people with information to like evaluate

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Speaker 1: their own risk and get a formula in place for

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Speaker 1: themselves to either prevent the first drug use or to

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Speaker 1: get arms around a drug use once it started. We're

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent on the same page, like there is

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Speaker 1: no one size fits all. So I say there are

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Speaker 1: infinite paths into addiction. There have to be infinite paths out,

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Speaker 1: like yours is going to be yours. And so we

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Speaker 1: talk about you inherit a set of conditions, a set

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Speaker 1: of biological conditions, that's your DNA. We carry genetic risk

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Speaker 1: for substance use disorders in our DNA. You inherit a

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Speaker 1: set of psychological conditions that's when you're a child. And

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Speaker 1: so ACES adverse childhood experience is right, you have run

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Speaker 1: down three major aces already, right, just like on this call,

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Speaker 1: your parents separating when you were young, the sexual assault

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Speaker 1: you experienced when you were young, we're talking now about

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Speaker 1: incarceration and how that takes parents out of the house.

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Speaker 1: That is like specifically named as one of the aces.

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Speaker 1: On the other side of that is positive childhood experiences.

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Speaker 1: They mitigate the risk that those aces give us later

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Speaker 1: in life. And you're like, if we spent one to

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Speaker 1: one hundredth of the prison budget on getting pieces in

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Speaker 1: place positive childhood experiences, we would bend the curve. The

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Speaker 1: last one is environmental, right, So this sixteen year old

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Speaker 1: boyfriend also had heroin, So like, what's going what is

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Speaker 1: this sixteen year old's environment and his aces and his

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Speaker 1: psychological risk factors and his biological risk factor And then

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Speaker 1: the last part of the book is like okay, and

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Speaker 1: then you also acquire more in adulthood. So biologically, anxiety,

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Speaker 1: physical pain, psychologically traumas that happened later in life, socially

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Speaker 1: supports system socioeconomic factors, and so it's like if you

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Speaker 1: look at your inherited factors and you look at your

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Speaker 1: acquired factors, you can start to put together a formula

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Speaker 1: for yourself that addresses those biological, psychological, environmental risk factors

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Speaker 1: inherited and acquired. And so to your comment, I'm skeptical

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Speaker 1: about the benefit of rehab one, that's because this is

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Speaker 1: a chronic medical condition. So like, do we think you

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Speaker 1: can fix diabetes in thirty days?

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Speaker 2: And then we do not two?

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Speaker 1: Because this is not one size fits all. So do

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Speaker 1: we think we can give everybody with diabetes the exact

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Speaker 1: same diet and the exact same dose of insult it's

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Speaker 1: supposed to work? Like, No, that's balder dash, crazy talk, right,

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Speaker 1: And so when you think about how you came to

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Speaker 1: understand what your formula is, how did you even start

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Speaker 1: the path?

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Speaker 2: How did you get to the.

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Speaker 1: Mix of formula things that you're doing today that are working,

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Speaker 1: and if you can share with us what they are,

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Speaker 1: because maybe it'll work for somebody else.

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Speaker 3: Sure, So you know, first, I you know, I tell people,

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Speaker 3: you know, I was never arrested, and that's because of

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Speaker 3: my skin color and because I came from a socioeconomic

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Speaker 3: background where I had financial support so I had a

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Speaker 3: decent car, I you know, access to money, all of

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Speaker 3: those sorts of factors, and then, you know, so when

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Speaker 3: I got caught at twenty three, I went to rehab

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Speaker 3: because my fiance at the time was so upset that

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Speaker 3: I just had I called my mom because I didn't

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Speaker 3: know what to do with his like I mean when

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Speaker 3: I say explosive, not like physically towards me, but he

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Speaker 3: was just crying and yelling and half French hap in English,

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Speaker 3: and I just felt like I had to get away

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Speaker 3: from him. So I went to rehab and it was

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Speaker 3: not a bad experience at all. It laid you know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of what I did in my two stints

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Speaker 3: in rehab laid the foundation for my recovery. However, after

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Speaker 3: that first trip to rehab, it took me another five

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Speaker 3: and a half years near constant relapse, to finally get

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Speaker 3: to a place where I was able to address the

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Speaker 3: real root issues. I wasn't a person who necessarily felt

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Speaker 3: like I like the disease model of alcoholism and addiction

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Speaker 3: resonated with me, and I couldn't figure out why I

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Speaker 3: couldn't do it, because it wasn't that I wasn't working

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Speaker 3: the steps in a twelve step programmer that I didn't

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Speaker 3: want it. I just I would get to a point

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Speaker 3: with emotional pain where I felt like I wanted to

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Speaker 3: rip my skin off or jump out the window, and

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Speaker 3: I would literally sit on my hands and count, so

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Speaker 3: like like when the same thing I did when I

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Speaker 3: was a kid, so I wouldn't harm myself. I you know.

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Speaker 3: The other thing I the reason that I say that too,

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Speaker 3: is that in speaking to people, you know, I think

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Speaker 3: in American culture there is there is this sort of

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Speaker 3: like idea of like pulling yourself up by the bootstraps.

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Speaker 3: And well, like you know, well he got out of

380
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Speaker 3: the ghetto and did and you know if he can

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Speaker 3: do it? And and I like to say a couple

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Speaker 3: of things about that. Number One, I know from personal experience. Yes, sure,

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Speaker 3: there are people who are able to get out of

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Speaker 3: really horrible situations, right, say they're born into to poverty

385
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Speaker 3: and they get themselves out of it. Great, that's wonderful.

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Speaker 3: But I think the majority of people need a little

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Speaker 3: bit more support.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You know why we know who they are, Aaron, because

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Speaker 1: they're exceptional.

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Speaker 3: Oh oh, the people who you're right, the people who

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Speaker 3: make it out.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that's why we know them because they are

394
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Speaker 1: literally the exception to the rule.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And I think it's it's it's that they are

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Speaker 3: exceptional and sometimes it's luck.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh.

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Speaker 1: When I say exceptional, I don't mean yeah, thank you,

399
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Speaker 1: thank you. I don't mean like they're an exceptional person

400
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Speaker 1: and you're not. I mean they are the exception.

401
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Speaker 3: One hundred percent.

402
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Speaker 2: No, I knew what you meant.

403
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Speaker 3: Okay, you know, so I say to people, Look, I

404
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,360
Speaker 3: had all of the My family was supportive, they did

405
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Speaker 3: not turn their backs. I mean I had access to

406
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Speaker 3: mental health care, I had access to physical health care.

407
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Speaker 3: I had, you know, plenty of friends and family who

408
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Speaker 3: were supportive to me, and it still took me five

409
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Speaker 3: and a half years of constant relapse.

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Speaker 2: Mm hm.

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Speaker 3: When you add in other factors like race, religion, other

412
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Speaker 3: cultural factors, poverty, you you stack so many more obstacles

413
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Speaker 3: accessing treatment. Because I am sure that you understand, as

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Speaker 3: a black person living in America that the quality and

415
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Speaker 3: accessibility of care is not equal to people of color.

416
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Speaker 3: And I think that that's, you know, that's something that

417
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Speaker 3: that like does not always get addressed when people are

418
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Speaker 3: treating addiction. And I think that it has to be addressed,

419
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Speaker 3: whether part of it, you know, And this kind of

420
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Speaker 3: ties back into sort of like the war on drugs

421
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Speaker 3: theory is that, you know, I think that the majority

422
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Speaker 3: of people who are drug dealing are also trapped in

423
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Speaker 3: the same ecosystem based out of trauma, poverty, you know,

424
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Speaker 3: racial oppression, all of those sorts of things. It's the

425
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Speaker 3: same all the same ecosystem. So there's that. So for me,

426
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Speaker 3: you know, I when I was twenty eight years old,

427
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Speaker 3: I had realized I found out I was pregnant. I

428
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Speaker 3: had had an abortion two years before that, and I'm

429
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Speaker 3: completely pro choice, and you know, I'm glad that I

430
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Speaker 3: had that abortion at the time that I did, but

431
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 3: it was psychologically and emotionally a very traumatizing experience for me.

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Speaker 3: And so when I got pregnant again at twenty eight,

433
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Speaker 3: I made the decision to have the baby, probably against

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Speaker 3: everybody's better judgment, and of course, like they didn't know

435
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Speaker 3: that I was strung out again. So I you know,

436
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 3: had spoken to one doctor and they said, well, you know,

437
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Speaker 3: the protocol at that time was to put women on

438
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 3: methodone maintenance, which I know it works for some people,

439
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 3: but I really did not want to go on methadone.

440
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 3: I had never been on methadone. And then I found

441
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 3: a doctor who was willing to detox me over seven

442
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 3: days using bupernorphine, and I did that because I was like, Okay,

443
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 3: I did use drugs in the beginning of my son's pregnancy,

444
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,040
Speaker 3: but I knew that I didn't want him to be

445
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 3: born addicted to anything. Down this doctor who helped me,

446
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,479
Speaker 3: and I knew that I would stay off of drugs

447
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,239
Speaker 3: for the duration of the pregnancy because I had been

448
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 3: able to accumulate months at a time before months was

449
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 3: the most. Nine or ten months was the most I'd

450
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 3: ever accumulated at that point. When he was born, you know,

451
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 3: I was sort of ambivalent about actually being a mother.

452
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 3: Did not think that I was going to be capable

453
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 3: of it. My parents didn't think I was going to

454
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 3: be capable of it. My ex that my son's father,

455
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 3: you know, he had meetings because he was not a

456
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 3: drug user. He had meetings with my parents about sort

457
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 3: of contingency plans for when I relapse. And when my

458
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 3: son was born, I held him and I looked into

459
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 3: his eyes and there was I had a lightning bolt

460
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 3: moment where I just looked at him and thought, I

461
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 3: love you more than I hate myself, and I'm going

462
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 3: to do everything I can to stay off of drugs.

463
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 3: So it was not the reason that I stayed off

464
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 3: of drugs. You know, he was the catalyst. And that

465
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 3: is not in any way to say that parents who

466
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 3: are not able to overcome their addiction when they become parents,

467
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 3: that I loved my son more, not at all. I

468
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 3: had a lightning bolt moment, and then I had access

469
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 3: most importantly to my mental health care, and I had

470
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 3: the financial support of my family. While I got back

471
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 3: on my feet as a new mom. I didn't have

472
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 3: to work at the time I was able to. I

473
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 3: had some support. I mean, I had the support of

474
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 3: his father and then also for my family, so that

475
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 3: I didn't I could kind of get myself stable. You know,

476
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean that I did it perfectly. I still,

477
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 3: you know, I had a lot of trouble with my

478
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 3: own emotional regulation. It took you know, time, it took medication,

479
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 3: and it took a lot of these things. But you know,

480
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 3: in March of next year, it will be twenty one

481
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 3: years of stained recovery. I didn't think was possible for them.

482
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 2: So talk to me about the formula before you do.

483
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: First of all, I want to say, so you're describing

484
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 1: what we would call diagnostically a severe opioid use disorder, right,

485
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: opioid use disorder. We measure it now moderate severe severe

486
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: substance use disorder. Your natural history of the disease is

487
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: what we call it, adoctors is like, what does it

488
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: usually look like?

489
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 2: Is exactly spot on.

490
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 1: So usually people start struggling, They struggle for about five

491
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: years before they even approach the treatment system for help

492
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: the first time, and then there are periodic relapses for

493
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: eight years and then sustain recovery for a year and

494
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: relapse risk falls a bit, and then five years and

495
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: it falls significantly. So you are like exactly in that

496
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: time frame for severe substance use disorder. And yet we're

497
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,719
Speaker 1: still out here saying like, oh, you had to go

498
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: to rehab twice, that's something about you. Like, oh, but

499
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: oh whatever, I'm about to start getting on a soapbox.

500
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 2: I'll just avoid it.

501
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 3: But no, it's true. I mean it's not it's you know,

502
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 3: there's I Oh, I was listening. I was listening to

503
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 3: a podcast where there was a police officer who had

504
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 3: struggled with addiction, and he said something that he wasn't

505
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 3: sure if the policy had changed, but when he was

506
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 3: in the forest, they just started letting police officers go

507
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 3: to rehab but only for alcohol.

508
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: Oh my god, not for.

509
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 3: Drugs, and then it was and then he changed it,

510
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 3: and then it was that they could go to rehab

511
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 3: but only once. And the idea that you know, that

512
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 3: we expect people to just snap their fingers and have

513
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 3: their entire constitution change in twenty eight days is so ridiculous.

514
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 3: And as you pointed out before, you know, it would

515
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 3: with different treatment protocols if we were treating cancer or

516
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 3: any other serious bills. If something isn't working, then we're like, okay,

517
00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 3: let's try this. One of the things, like when I

518
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 3: was first trying to get recovery in twelve step meetings,

519
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 3: it was very you know, very hardlined on abstinence based recovery,

520
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 3: and I so I was like, oh, you know, if

521
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 3: somebody's on methodone, they're not really in recovery. Or if

522
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 3: somebody's and I at the time, like I had started

523
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 3: well butrin in recovery, and then some people that's not recovery,

524
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 3: and I'm like, so I kept going off a bit

525
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 3: and then I look crazy, and you know, it was

526
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 3: really a struggle. And obviously now my viewpoint is so

527
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 3: different because recovery. Recovery is not the definition of recovery

528
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 3: is an abstinence.

529
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 2: Boom, say it again louder for the people in the back.

530
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 3: The definition of recovery does not include abstinence. Abstinate that.

531
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 3: If abstinence is part of your recovery, great, but that's

532
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,719
Speaker 3: not where recovery is. It's about getting back something that

533
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 3: you lost, part of your welf, your life, your ability

534
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 3: to be a part of society.

535
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: Your ability to believe could be a mother to your

536
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: sne Right, this is what recovery is.

537
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 2: Right.

538
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 3: Oh, if somebody had told me, even while I was pregnant,

539
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 3: that I would be able to not just stay off

540
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 3: of drugs, but to be able to go through life

541
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 3: and not feel on a daily basis like I wanted

542
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 3: to die, I wouldn't have believed them.

543
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

544
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 3: Really, I didn't think that happiness was a possibility for me.

545
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 3: And you know that doesn't mean that I'm happy all

546
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 3: the time, but in general, i'm very you know, I'm

547
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 3: very grateful for the life that I have, the life

548
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 3: that I didn't think was possible. I have two beautiful children,

549
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 3: I have a loving husband, I have a good relationship

550
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 3: with my family, and I don't struggle with you know,

551
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 3: it doesn't mean I never have a bad day, but

552
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 3: I just the difference, you know. I guess we can

553
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 3: talk about this in terms of like tools.

554
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: I mean, according to Megan the Stallion, bad bitches have

555
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: bad days too, exactly. So talk to us about your formula.

556
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: Talk to us about your formula for your recovery today.

557
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 3: So my formula for my recovery today is largely based

558
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 3: the like The number one thing is honesty with myself

559
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 3: about what I'm feeling except what I'm feeling, and judging

560
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 3: except not judging it, and learning to ask for help.

561
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 3: M So here's a good example is that you know,

562
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 3: I don't struggle with cravings for opiates anymore. And I

563
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 3: joke that, like, I think I used up all of

564
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 3: my good receptors because anytime I've had surgery and they've

565
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 3: given me pain medication, all it does is make me

566
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 3: feel it doesn't even like help really with the pain.

567
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 3: I'm like, I there's no release, there's no like, it's

568
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 3: such a letdown, Like oh, great.

569
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: You're not meeting my expectations. Yeah.

570
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 3: I had last year and I was like joking with

571
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 3: somebody because they sent me home with a lot of

572
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 3: pain medication. And for me with when I've had surgeries,

573
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 3: I'm like, first forty eight hours, take the pain medication,

574
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 3: don't try to it, get ahead of the pain, yeah,

575
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 3: and then go off. But I I every time, I'm like,

576
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 3: I never even make it the full eight hours because

577
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 3: I just it makes me feel really anxious and depressed,

578
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 3: because I think my body' is like, oh, you're gonna

579
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 3: start going into withdrawals.

580
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: Even though one day yeah, the physiology remembers.

581
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 3: Yeah it does. So I don't struggle with those cravings.

582
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: Right.

583
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 3: That has really gone away for me. But in twenty twenty,

584
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 3: my book came out ten days before the shutdown. I

585
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 3: was on book tour and ended up coming home early.

586
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 3: I did four book tour events and then had to

587
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 3: cancel seventeen events and it was such a disappointment. And

588
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 3: then I was home with my husband and I both

589
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 3: working from home, a two year old and a sixteen

590
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 3: year old. Everybody was miserable, and I started having those

591
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 3: like not in a real way, but those like feeling

592
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 3: like I remember sitting one day and thinking like I was.

593
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 3: I just felt so sad and scared and depressed about everything,

594
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 3: and I was like, I, you know, if you just

595
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 3: jumped out the window, this could all just you wouldn't

596
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 3: be upset right now. And it's not that I felt

597
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 3: like I was in danger of doing it, but that

598
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 3: the thought even went through my head. I was like,

599
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 3: So what I did is I told my husband. I

600
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 3: called my best friend, told her how I was feeling.

601
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 3: I called my psychiatrist and made an appointment. I called

602
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 3: my therapist and made an emergency session. Yep, they like,

603
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 3: you know, I'm starting to have like panic attacks at

604
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 3: night again, Like what should I do rather than just pretending?

605
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 3: Because my my first instinct is always just like pretend everything?

606
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 3: Is that just pushed through? You know?

607
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 2: I was not.

608
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 3: I mean I joke that like that sort of like

609
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 3: pushed through attitude. I mean, I can't tell you how

610
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 3: many times I kicked heroin on airplanes at work. Like

611
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 3: me just like I just would always have this thing

612
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 3: like if I pretend it's not happening, I'll be a game,

613
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 3: which is terrible, you know, And now I don't do that,

614
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 3: so that's that's sort of like my baseline. And and

615
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 3: then I have learned, you know, I've learned more about

616
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: myself and my my psychological makeup. I've learned more about

617
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 3: the way that my brain works.

618
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 2: You know.

619
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 3: I think I had so many different diagnoses thrown at

620
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 3: me over the years. Everything from you know, like generalized

621
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 3: anxiety to key to bipolar two, borderline personality disorder was

622
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,280
Speaker 3: thrown at me all the time. And you know, now,

623
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 3: I you know, with the psychiatrist, I have now. For

624
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 3: the longest time, he kept saying, you know, I really

625
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 3: you know, have you ever been screened for ADHD? And

626
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 3: I was like, no, I'm like, I did really well

627
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 3: in school. I'm like, and was finally went through the

628
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 3: diagnostic test and lo and behold and looked at sort

629
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 3: of amply. And I really think so much of it

630
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 3: was just trauma and ADHD. And when I learned how

631
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 3: to manage my ADHD, which isn't just medication, it's a

632
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 3: whole holistic you know toolbox. Yeah, the difference my insomnia

633
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 3: went away for the first time in my life, and

634
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 3: I realized how there were so many things that I

635
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 3: could do to help my brain. That was constantly looking

636
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 3: for dopamine. There were just little things, and so I

637
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 3: do those things, you know, whether it means.

638
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 2: Like, Okay, tell us some of yeah, tell us some

639
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 2: of these things. Run it down.

640
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 3: Sounds so silly. And basically my quickest hack to an

641
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 3: ADHD or any kind of dopamine fix is a checklist.

642
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 3: And oh my god, yes, when I'm really struggling, that

643
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 3: checklist includes like getting up at a certain time, brushing

644
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 3: my teeth, making the bed, every little, you know, minute thing.

645
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 3: Because every little check I start to feel like I

646
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 3: can do the next one, and I can see, Okay,

647
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 3: this is the next thing on my list, and this

648
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 3: is the next thing.

649
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

650
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 3: I have a little list that I run through in

651
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 3: my head when I'm feeling like I'm not regulating my

652
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:31,240
Speaker 3: emotions well or I'm feeling overwhelmed, and that is water, sleep, food, outside.

653
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 3: So because that's.

654
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 2: Like hungry, angry, lonely high uh huh.

655
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 3: No, it's all I mean, funny enough, like water tends

656
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 3: to get seems to solve like ninety percent of my problems.

657
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 3: But often I just need to get outside and go

658
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,720
Speaker 3: for a ten minute walk. Yeah, And I tell people,

659
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 3: like in an emergency, like a panic. You know, obviously

660
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 3: there's a certain point that this wouldn't work for a

661
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 3: panic attack. But if I start to feel like the

662
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 3: edginess come on, say I'm at I mean, this is

663
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 3: just like a random like if I was at like

664
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 3: a dinner party and I'm you know, I'm having some

665
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 3: sort of like feeling where I feel overwhelmed. I just

666
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 3: get up to use the restroom and just let my

667
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 3: hand like let cool water run on my hands, and

668
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 3: you know, I feel like, you know, in my as

669
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 3: it's happening, I feel like, oh, I'm literally cooling down

670
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 3: my nervous system. It just gives me that little break

671
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 3: to get back into present time. You know. So much

672
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 3: of it is around mindfulness, which I didn't know that

673
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 3: that's what it was as I started learning to do

674
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:37,320
Speaker 3: these things through cognitive behavioral therapy. But those things really

675
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 3: really work for me. So you know, definitely for me,

676
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 3: I still am on well beutured. I don't think I'll

677
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 3: ever go off of it because the difference for me is, yes,

678
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 3: I was able to still parent and function without it,

679
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 3: but I struggled so much more and to not have

680
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:01,240
Speaker 3: that struggle and to have those dream ups and downs

681
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 3: was really really invaluable for me. I mean it was

682
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 3: a game changer. So it's meant for me. It's medication,

683
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 3: it's being able knowing how to ask for help, it's

684
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 3: taking care of myself physically. And I think with all

685
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 3: of those things, it's like, you know the adage that

686
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 3: self esteem is based on doing esteemable things, like part

687
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 3: of learning to love yourself is to physically take care

688
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 3: of yourself, and I think, you know, I didn't for

689
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 3: such a long time, and I probably in my years

690
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 3: of active addiction, only took care of myself out of

691
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 3: my own vanity, not because I loved myself, which is

692
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 3: an embarrassing thing to admit, but it's true, you know.

693
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 3: So I but now you know, if I am having

694
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 3: a really hard day and I have all this other

695
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 3: stuff that I should do for work, but you know

696
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 3: I don't have to do, I will like get myself

697
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 3: the afternoon off and like give myself permission to take

698
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 3: a nap if I need to have an app.

699
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 2: I love it.

700
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 3: I think we all need timeouts, and timeouts aren't punitive.

701
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 3: Timeouts are a moment to like recalibrate and have some

702
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 3: like stillness. Another thing that really really helped me, which

703
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 3: I sort of stumbled into, but it goes back to mindfulness.

704
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 3: Is Kundalini yoga. When Atticus, my first child, was born,

705
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 3: I found this these mommy and me Kundalini yoga classes

706
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 3: near near where I lived in Los Angeles and started going.

707
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 3: And Kundalini yoga for people who aren't familiar, is really

708
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 3: based around breath, so it's a lot of hold poses

709
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 3: or doing simple movements while breathing a specific way. I'm

710
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 3: not an expert, so I hope I'm explaining that well,

711
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,399
Speaker 3: but that's what it was for me, So it taught me.

712
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 3: I feel like Kundalini yoga taught me how to sit

713
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 3: in my body because so how much of my life

714
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 3: I wanted out of my body and I wanted to disconnect,

715
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 3: and it allowed me to learn how to kind of

716
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 3: sit through that, sit in my body, be present in

717
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 3: my body, and not want to leave. And by doing that,

718
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 3: it taught me, as I went on and added other

719
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 3: things to it, how to sit in discomfort. And I'm

720
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 3: not saying like be uncomfortable, like to punish yourself when

721
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 3: you could be comfortable, But we all go through things

722
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 3: in life that are painful. You know, before I have

723
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 3: another son who's six years old, but right before I

724
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 3: got pregnant with him, I had been pregnant and I

725
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 3: was well into my second trimester and went into premature

726
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 3: labor and delivered a stoleborn child, and god, it was

727
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 3: so painful, and I remember, like the one comforting thing

728
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 3: was I sat there was my husband took my other

729
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 3: son to a Drake concert at Madison's Garden that night,

730
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 3: and was the first time I had been alone since

731
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 3: this had happened, and I sat in my shower, sat

732
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 3: on the floor and just sobbed. But then I had

733
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 3: that thought, like I don't know how I'm going to

734
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:16,280
Speaker 3: get through this, but I know I will, Yeah, because

735
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 3: I had been through enough of it that I knew

736
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 3: that I had that I had had, you know enough,

737
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 3: you know, I think I had like what fourteen years

738
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 3: they're fourteen years and thirteen years in recovery at the time,

739
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 3: so I knew that I could do it. And that's

740
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, I think that's that's why we

741
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 3: need continued support and recovery, especially in the first three years.

742
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, you might need to let you

743
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 3: know I still need it, But like you know, it's it's,

744
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 3: it's it's really such a big part of it. And

745
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 3: when people are in more dire situations, if they're unhoused,

746
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 3: they've been incarcerated, they're obviously facing like even bigger obstacles.

747
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 3: One thing that's really passion I'm really passionate about is

748
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,439
Speaker 3: speaking you know, I mentioned before speaking with legislators about

749
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 3: drug policy reform. In most places, in drug court, if

750
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 3: if somebody has a dirty test, meaning that they show

751
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 3: that they had used drugs, they're kicked out of the

752
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 3: drug court program. But there have been judges that.

753
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 2: Are when really you need more, you need more.

754
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 3: So this a two years ago I read an article

755
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 3: in the New York Times about this judge in New

756
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 3: Mexico that had started had changed it so that as

757
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 3: long as you continue, you know, continue coming to get care,

758
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 3: you won't be kicked out of the program because you

759
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 3: recognized that.

760
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, like if your cancer comes back, no more chemo

761
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: for you.

762
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 2: Hey, do we think that's gonna fix your cancer?

763
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 1: I wanna I want to step back because Aaron, you

764
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: kind of introduced your to do list. You were kind

765
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: of like, I mean, it's not a big deal, and

766
00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: then you ran down like so many things that were amazing,

767
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: and so I just want to take a second to say,

768
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: you ran down this whole list of things that was amazing.

769
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,439
Speaker 1: What was amazing about it is one. It started with

770
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: what I would call early warning signs you recognize before

771
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 1: you're too far down the painful pathway, Like, oh, I

772
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: can recognize this pain in an early state now, And

773
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,919
Speaker 1: then you already have an action plan that you don't

774
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: have to try to figure out in real time because

775
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 1: you already have it. You're like, oh, checklist, get up,

776
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: take a shower, brush your teeth, make your bed. And

777
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 1: that's that's kind of like your I don't feel good

778
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: and I'm going to turn this around over some period

779
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: of time kind of strategy. And then you talk to

780
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: us about like being at dinner and being in a

781
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: moment right now where I need to have a turn

782
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: around right now, and you already had a plan for

783
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: and you're like, I'm gonna go to this bath, I

784
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 1: already have my social graces. Excuse me, I'm just gonna

785
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: right into the ladies' room for a minute. And then

786
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: you go and you have your your routine for how

787
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 1: you ground yourself and get yourself mindful with your breath

788
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 1: and with cold water.

789
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 2: This is one will.

790
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: We need to be teaching kids, Yes, yes, but two

791
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: even as adults. Right, Like, if you know this emotional

792
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: pain is not going to kill me because I have

793
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: a strategy for how I can get through it, and

794
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 1: you don't have to try to figure out that strategy.

795
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 2: Like I always say, the reason I would die.

796
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 1: In a race car race is because I don't have

797
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: a strategy for when the car spins right, right, the

798
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: race car driver already has their strategy. They don't have

799
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 1: to try to figure it out in the moment, right,

800
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: And so like what I want people to hear one,

801
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 1: you know what the pieces of your formula are, and

802
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: part of a huge piece of that formula is being

803
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: able to recognize early when I'm not quite myself, having

804
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 1: the plan for who do I reach out to, what

805
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: do I do, what strategies do I use? This is

806
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: the same thing I always bring it back, cancer, diabetes,

807
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 1: high blood pressure, asthma.

808
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 2: It's like diabetes.

809
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: You know why we check your blood sugar because we

810
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 1: want to know that it's going up so we can

811
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,439
Speaker 1: intervene before you're in a coma, right, or we want

812
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 1: to know when it's too low. And you know when

813
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: you have low blood sugar, drink some orange juice. You

814
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 1: don't have to figure that out in the moment. We

815
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: already set the plan right in advance. So I thought

816
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 1: that was so interesting. You're like, I mean, here's a

817
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: little something, and then like gave a master class, which

818
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: was amazing. Okay it is. We have come to the end,

819
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: and listen. I usually remember in the middle and then

820
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: I say, oh, I forgot to tell you. At the end,

821
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you this question. And we just

822
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: got all the way to the end and I never

823
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: remembered though. Sorry, you have zero prep times. So this

824
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: is going to be like straight from the heart off

825
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: the dome. I ask everybody to close us out with

826
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 1: if there is one thing informed by your experience, by

827
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 1: your passions, that you want people to unlearn, undo or

828
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,439
Speaker 1: a conversation to uncover, what would you leave us with.

829
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 3: Well, the first thing that pops into my head is

830
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 3: sort of how we talk to our kids about drugs.

831
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 3: The book that I wrote, Strung Out opens with my

832
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 3: son asking me, Mom, did you ever do drugs? He

833
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 3: was twelve years old. He was about ten months younger

834
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 3: than I was. When I first used heroin, and I

835
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 3: didn't know how to answer the question. And the book

836
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 3: is somewhat an answer to that question, right, And I

837
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 3: did eventually have a conversation with him when before he

838
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 3: turned thirteen. And I think that, you know, the greatest

839
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 3: gift that we can give our children is to start

840
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 3: having the conversation as soon as they're talking, and the

841
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 3: conversation starts around emotional regulation. You don't have to mention

842
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 3: the word drugs. And then as they get older and

843
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,720
Speaker 3: we start talking about drugs and what they might encounter

844
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 3: in the world, we don't do it with the old

845
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 3: like framework that I grew up with, Like this is

846
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 3: like just say no, you know, scary tactics. With my

847
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 3: older son as he entered his teenage years and we

848
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 3: talked about it, I gave him information I made him

849
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,399
Speaker 3: do in a lock zone training with me. Now he's

850
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 3: twenty and he's in the city, but he's in his

851
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 3: own apartment like foisted, you know, ventanyl testing strips in

852
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 3: the lock zone in his roommates and he, you know,

853
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 3: rolls his eyes. He's like Mom, and he's like, I'm

854
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 3: not you know, I said, I know, I said, but

855
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 3: if you ever decide to try something, you have it there.

856
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 3: Or if somebody you know tries something, you have it there.

857
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 3: Because at various times, like forty percent of the cocaine

858
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 3: and molly in New York City will have ventanel in it.

859
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 2: That's right.

860
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,439
Speaker 3: It's not the same as even when I was a kid,

861
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 3: I didn't. It's even riskier now. I get connected to

862
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 3: parents frequently who've lost teenage children to accidental overdose. And

863
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 3: I think that the greatest thing that we gift we

864
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 3: can give our children is to give them all of

865
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 3: the information in a neutral way. Substances are neutral, they

866
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,240
Speaker 3: don't have an agenda, they are not alive.

867
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 2: You know.

868
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 3: Fentanel was originally developed to treat severe pain, and it's

869
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 3: effective at that. Unfortunately, it's also effective at dulling emotional pain,

870
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 3: which is why people will reach for it.

871
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:50,879
Speaker 2: That's right.

872
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: So it's also effective at stopping your breathing, which is

873
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: why people yes from it.

874
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 3: Yes, And I think that, you know, giving our kids

875
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:05,280
Speaker 3: the tools to have some agency over their decision making

876
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 3: build self efficacy, build self esteem, and they are more

877
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 3: likely to make informed, healthy decisions. One of the things

878
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:16,959
Speaker 3: that I'm so proud of with my son is that

879
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 3: he had a friend who was going to like knowingly

880
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 3: tryfenttional when he you know, and he text messaged me

881
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:27,479
Speaker 3: and he said, do you think you could just talk

882
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 3: to him, like, will you FaceTime with us? So I did,

883
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 3: And I didn't tell him don't do it, You'll die.

884
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 3: I just said, you know that these are these are

885
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 3: the facts that I know based on the most current information.

886
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 3: If you decide to do it, this is how you

887
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 3: do it so you don't die.

888
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 2: That's right.

889
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 3: I absolutely need to have somebody else there. You need

890
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 3: to have in the lock zone inventional testing strips. I

891
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 3: can tell you where to get it, but don't do

892
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 3: it without those I love. And you know, I've had

893
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 3: some people like when I've talked to parents about this

894
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 3: before and they're like, well, isn't that just like giving them, like,

895
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 3: you know, license to do it? And I said no,

896
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 3: I said, they're an individual. I'm not going to have

897
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 3: control over my child for the rest of his life.

898
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 3: It's an illusion that we have control over them now

899
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 3: today exactly. So the best thing I can do is

900
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 3: give him all of the information and give him access

901
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 3: and tools to things that will save his life if

902
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 3: he chooses to do them because there is no parent

903
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 3: who would rather have, you know, would you rather have

904
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 3: a kid who's never going to try drugs or a

905
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 3: dead kid like you want? No one's going to recover

906
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 3: if they're not alive. So that's like, that's you know

907
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 3: why I'm such a proponent of harm reduction and harm

908
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 3: reduction education, and it needs to be done early. It

909
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:39,800
Speaker 3: needs to start it, like I said, with emotional regulation,

910
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 3: and then as we start to talk about substance use,

911
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 3: we give them neutral information in an age appropriate way

912
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 3: so that they have the agency and self efficacy to

913
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 3: make decisions for themselves.

914
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:56,839
Speaker 1: I love it we start having the conversation as soon

915
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: as they can talk.

916
00:51:58,960 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 2: I love it.

917
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. This was amazing. I would love

918
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 1: to meet you in person someday.

919
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:07,959
Speaker 3: This was so fun.

920
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 2: When I come to New York City, I'm gonna be like, hey, girl.

921
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 3: You have to definitely please let me know.

922
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 2: I would love to do Yeah, yeah, amazing. All right,

923
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for tuning in.

924
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 1: And if you like this episode, please check out my

925
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: book on addiction, Six mind Changing Conversations that Could Save

926
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: a Life, available at Barnes Andnoble Bookshop Dot Org, Union,

927
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,319
Speaker 1: Squaring Company, Amazon.

928
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 2: And wherever books are sold.

929
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 1: If you like to this episode, please share it with

930
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 1: someone you think may need to hear it. Also, please

931
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: subscribe to this podcast and leave a five star review

932
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 1: that helps us reach any and everyone who may be

933
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 1: looking for support in the face of addiction.