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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Mark Hartsman, apologies again for asking you that question about

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Speaker 2: Charles Davis and not giving you enough time to respond.

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Speaker 2: Can you pick up the story there about what happened

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Speaker 2: to him?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, of course, so so as I was saying,

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Speaker 3: it's been fully investigated by the FBI, this was documented

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Speaker 3: in newspapers and there was really no clear explanation that

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Speaker 3: ever came through for what happened to him. And after that,

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Speaker 3: you know, he put it up his mind. Like I said,

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Speaker 3: James McDonald had interviewed him and his mother and grandmother

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Speaker 3: several years later, and that was pretty much all he

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Speaker 3: thought about. He didn't he didn't use this to try

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Speaker 3: to light capitalize on this, you know, on an experience

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Speaker 3: or anything like that. It's just something weird that happened

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Speaker 3: to him, As always said, he didn't know what it was,

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Speaker 3: just something odd. So what makes the story even stranger?

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Speaker 3: And this was something that that Dave had shared with me,

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Speaker 3: David Marla had shared with me when he first told

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Speaker 3: me about Charles Davis. He started looking into the case

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Speaker 3: and finding that other top shape UFO sightings were happening

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Speaker 3: in the weeks before and after this in different parts

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Speaker 3: of the country, mostly like Georgia and North Carolina. And

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Speaker 3: there were these other documentary reports of people seeing top

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Speaker 3: shaped objects flying overhead and in several cases also belching

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Speaker 3: fire and injuring, injuring different people in the process. Even

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Speaker 3: stranger This was happening on Tuesday nights so frequently that

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Speaker 3: people were having watch parties on Tuesday nights say objects.

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Speaker 3: And again, none of these were ever explained. There was

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Speaker 3: no you know, government didn't say, oh yeah, we're testing

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Speaker 3: some new aircraft or whatever it was. None of that

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Speaker 3: ever came out. And so I loved this story to

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Speaker 3: ensure to introduce the book because it is one of

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Speaker 3: these truly odd, weird things that happened. It's unexplained, and

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Speaker 3: that's the case with so many stories. I mean, you

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Speaker 3: had mentioned earlier the idea of of these you know,

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Speaker 3: uh aircraft or unidentified crafts flying overhead. You know, no

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Speaker 3: no sound, just sitting overhead and people's you know, whether

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Speaker 3: it's in people's yards or over highways or whatever it

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Speaker 3: might be. And I have cases like that I talked

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Speaker 3: about in the book that truly are just unexplained, and

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Speaker 3: that's part of what keeps this whole topic so mysterious

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Speaker 3: and interesting.

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Speaker 4: And what does Charles Davis think now?

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Speaker 3: So when I talked to him, I mean, he basically

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Speaker 3: still maintains that he doesn't know what it is. He said,

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Speaker 3: all I know is something where it happened to me.

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Speaker 3: I'm not telling you it's it's aliens or ufo, but

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Speaker 3: I don't know. It has no explanation for it. It

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Speaker 3: doesn't try to create one for it.

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Speaker 2: I mean tops UFOs that look like tops that are

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Speaker 2: belching fire.

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Speaker 4: You don't hear about many of those anymore.

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Speaker 2: I think I remember from one of the cases that

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Speaker 2: you document in this book it was also stinky, right,

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Speaker 2: it was it was really smelled bad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, that's right. So that that's too And

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Speaker 3: you know, and to the idea that you just said,

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Speaker 3: like you don't see those too often, that that's shape,

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Speaker 3: especially at that time, everything more saucer shaped, you know,

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Speaker 3: or at least cigar shaped. Right, you didn't hear you

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Speaker 3: didn't hear top shaped, So why would someone just suddenly

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Speaker 3: make that up? They kind of wanted to capitalize on

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Speaker 3: the situation. So it's definitely an unusual. Definitely an usual

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Speaker 3: series of cases.

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Speaker 2: Well, what do you make of that that there are

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Speaker 2: so many You look at the history of this phenomenon,

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Speaker 2: there are so many hundreds of shapes and sizes of

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Speaker 2: these objects. Some are the same as what we see today.

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Speaker 2: There's spheres and occasionally at discs, but cigar shapes, triangles,

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Speaker 2: many are pretty weird shapes, Like we get the variety

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Speaker 2: pack here are they? You know, alien cheves, Chryslers and fords,

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Speaker 2: different sport models, station wagons.

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Speaker 4: What's what's going on?

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Speaker 3: A good way to put it? Even rectangular shape, you know, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you hear a lot of like you know, football field

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Speaker 3: size objects being seen, And I mean that's a good question.

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Speaker 3: You know, first of all, when we think about the

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Speaker 3: idea of extraterrestial visitors, who's to say it's just you know,

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Speaker 3: one one species from one particular place and not be visiting.

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Speaker 3: So in that sense, yeah, maybe it is different, different

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Speaker 3: different beings, different vehicles that they're creating. So it's a

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Speaker 3: good question.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 3: At first, I find the triangular UFO is really fascinating. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: especially you know, Phoenix lights probably be the most famousism,

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Speaker 3: which was seen by about twenty thousand people, you know,

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Speaker 3: silently passing over Phoenix and the surrounding area throughout the state.

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Speaker 3: Just the nineteen ninety seven it's early recent, right, So,

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Speaker 3: and that's another one that's just never really been explained.

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Speaker 3: Even the governor admitted that that because he saw that

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Speaker 3: and had no explanation for it.

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Speaker 2: I liked that you covered. You mentioned James and McDonald,

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Speaker 2: doctor James McDonald. It's not a name that people hear

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Speaker 2: all that often in UFO circles anymore, but gosh, what

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Speaker 2: a gigantic figure he was back then. And he was

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Speaker 2: a courageous guy. I mean, he put it all on

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Speaker 2: the line and ultimately paid a price for going down

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Speaker 2: on into the UFL rabbit hole. Can you share with

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Speaker 2: our audience who he was or what he did?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So he was a physicist who really took on

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Speaker 3: the subject at the time when there weren't that many

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Speaker 3: scientists really getting involved in it. I mean, he had

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Speaker 3: jail and heinez as an advisor of the Project blue

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Speaker 3: Book because you know, early on he was working really

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Speaker 3: more to debunk it along with the sort of the

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Speaker 3: goals of Project Blue Books eventually kind of came around.

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Speaker 3: But James McDonald really took it seriously and investigated it

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Speaker 3: again with you know, with a scientific mind. And he

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Speaker 3: was involved in the congressional hearing from the late sixties

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Speaker 3: and you know, presented many cases and documented you know,

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Speaker 3: facts and then shared data. But you're right, he you

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Speaker 3: think there's a great response. You know, he wasn't joined

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Speaker 3: by their scientists. It wasn't like it is today where

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Speaker 3: you have people coming together looking at things and trying

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Speaker 3: to finances. He was kind of on his own. So

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Speaker 3: you're right, he was very courageous and you know, ultimately

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Speaker 3: it didn't didn't so well for his career or his life.

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Speaker 2: He took his own life right. Yeah, he ended his life.

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Speaker 2: He was under a lot of pressure. I remember a

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Speaker 2: lot of criticisms as happens still for scientists and others

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Speaker 2: who go out on a limb. On this you cover

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Speaker 2: a lot of the really fascinating cases from back in

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Speaker 2: previous eras Kelly Hopkinsville, I think it's a great example.

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Speaker 4: We've talked about it on this show before.

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Speaker 2: You know, this is a preposterous scenario that you know,

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Speaker 2: it is almost preposterous by design, where aliens are passing

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Speaker 2: around this home and they keep getting shot almost like

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Speaker 2: a shooting gallery. They get shot by the people in

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Speaker 2: this family and they keep bouncing back up.

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Speaker 4: What do you make of that whole scenario.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it really is a fascinating case. And I have

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Speaker 3: a couple images in the book of sketches and you know,

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Speaker 3: details of what these creatures look like. And one of

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Speaker 3: the headlines from nineteen fifty five it said, story of

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Speaker 3: spaceship twelve little men probed today. That's a Kelly farmhouse.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, and basically, these guys, you know, the family

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Speaker 3: and a couple of friends saw these creatures. They seemed

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Speaker 3: to be like monkey shaped, monkey size, you know, with

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Speaker 3: with outfits on and shooting at them. Like you said,

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Speaker 3: they're climbing up trees on roofs and yeah, just kept

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Speaker 3: coming back and and there was of course nobody you know,

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Speaker 3: if they shot them and hit them, there was no

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Speaker 3: evidence left behind. The police came out, investigated, talked about

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Speaker 3: how terrified these guys were. They said they were genuinely terrified.

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Speaker 3: It didn't seem like they were making anything up. But

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Speaker 3: they couldn't find any evidence, like they here's the story,

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Speaker 3: but okay, we don't see any evidence of this. And

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Speaker 3: there was really no great explanation for this. There was

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Speaker 3: one well, at one point they thought that maybe these

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Speaker 3: were monkeys would escape from a circus that was traveling nearby,

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Speaker 3: which is kind of an interesting hypothesis that monkeys had

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Speaker 3: gotten that far and somehow it avoid bullets, evaded them

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Speaker 3: from multiple guns at that time. So yeah, it's definitely

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Speaker 3: one of those interesting early cases, and it's kind of

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Speaker 3: one of those ones I think that helped helped push

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Speaker 3: the little Green men there in that right right, You know,

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Speaker 3: I look interesting.

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Speaker 2: I know you spent some time with David Marlar, so

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Speaker 2: I'm surprised that I and I looked at the index

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Speaker 2: and not did not find Farmington, New Mexico. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you've ran across much information on that, but

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Speaker 2: what a spectacular incident that was where these UFO sort

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Speaker 2: of had a dogfight. I mean dozens, maybe hundreds of

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Speaker 2: these objects over this town in New Mexico that were

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Speaker 2: seen by in the daylight by all kinds of people,

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Speaker 2: I mean basically everybody who lived there. Did you dig

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Speaker 2: into that and pass on it? Or or did Marlar

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Speaker 2: not share you his secret files on that one?

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Speaker 3: You know, he took me through so many files and

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Speaker 3: to be honest, there was so much to go through

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Speaker 3: that at some point, I just I kind of did

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Speaker 3: pick and choose a little bit. I can't tell you

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Speaker 3: I had a particular reason for not including that case, right,

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Speaker 3: I think I just I was just finding cases and

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Speaker 3: using as much as I could. I actually had about

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Speaker 3: twenty thousand words too much when I delivered the book.

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Speaker 4: I understand that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, unfortunately I couldn't cover as many cases as I

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Speaker 3: would have liked. But yeah, that's definitely another interesting one.

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Speaker 2: It's probably hard to convince the publisher the nine hundred

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Speaker 2: page book is going to sell all that.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I think I pushed back and got

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Speaker 3: I think I kept at least another eight to ten

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Speaker 3: thousand of those words that initially was that's.

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Speaker 4: The trim So oh good deal progress, you know it is.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to cover the legitimacy of the truly old cases.

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Speaker 2: You cover the modern uf era Ufo era back to

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Speaker 2: the late forties and fifties. But you know, similar objects

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Speaker 2: have been reported throughout human history. The Romans called them

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Speaker 2: a fly shields. There are things that in the Bible

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Speaker 2: is Ezekiel's wheel that other people compare to to modern UFOs,

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Speaker 2: the idea that these things have been around a long time,

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Speaker 2: that if they're visitors, they've been watching us for a

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Speaker 2: long time, or maybe they'll live here. You tend to

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Speaker 2: come across as sort of agnostic. You don't put your

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Speaker 2: feet down in either camp and in a definitive way.

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Speaker 2: But what do you think about the idea of the

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Speaker 2: visitors not being visitors at all?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Well, actually I had to initially had a whole chapter

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Speaker 3: on sort that ancient alien idea, and that's that kind

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Speaker 3: of got cut for that word count length I mentioned,

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Speaker 3: but I took if you saw it sit on the book.

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Speaker 3: I took some of those sessions and put them around

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Speaker 3: the book as sidebars because I didn't want to lose

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Speaker 3: that whole aspect of the story, because it is a

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Speaker 3: really interesting part of the whole UFO phenomena, just throughout humanity.

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Speaker 3: In some of it I find really quite interesting. I

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Speaker 3: mean to me as Ezekiel's vision. That was something that

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Speaker 3: I read about in high school and wrote a paper

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Speaker 3: about in my ap English class. That was so fascinated

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Speaker 3: by it. My teacher didn't really agree with it, which

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Speaker 3: was interesting, But yeah, I thought that you know, here

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Speaker 3: it's this amazing description of this chariot coming down from

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Speaker 3: the heavens, with these strange creatures, with these amazing descriptions

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Speaker 3: of faces that you know, resemble different animals, multiple animals,

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Speaker 3: and these you know, on these creatures, and of course

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Speaker 3: there's someone sitting in a throne in the center of it, right,

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Speaker 3: So what could this thing be? And and so I

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Speaker 3: talked about that. You know, is it isn't an early

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Speaker 3: UFO scientist using the terminology that Ezekio may have had

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Speaker 3: at the time, or is there a different context just

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Speaker 3: in terms of you know what what he may have

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Speaker 3: been experiencing back then. So it's it's an interesting case.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, it's it's hard to have anything defendive about that, right,

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Speaker 3: that's this is all just about theory. So I did

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Speaker 3: talk about some of the other cases, you know, whether

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Speaker 3: things like Stonehande or the Pyramids may have been built

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Speaker 3: by aliens. And there's a lot of evidence that shows how,

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Speaker 3: you know, how some of that could have maybe been done.

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Speaker 3: For example, part of Nile back then, it's been realed

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Speaker 3: recently to have actually had another another pathway that actually

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Speaker 3: went by the pyramids of floating stones and so forth,

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Speaker 3: may have been a bit more possible than previously suspected.

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Speaker 3: But I also think we shouldn't, you know, underestimate the

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Speaker 3: ingenuity of humanity to build some of these structures. That said,

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Speaker 3: there's some of them that are truly extraordinary that really

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Speaker 3: do leave you wondering how how people were capable of

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Speaker 3: some of these things.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so who knows.

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Speaker 3: I personally think that if UFOs had come back then

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Speaker 3: and helped build some of these things, they could have

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Speaker 3: used more than just the natural resources and left something

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Speaker 3: behind as well. I mean, I look at like what

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Speaker 3: we're doing on Mars right now as an example. So

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Speaker 3: we have rovers there now, right, but before we put

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Speaker 3: humans there, we'llst another machinery there that will three build

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Speaker 3: habitat scores, and we'll bring some of our technology from

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Speaker 3: here to there. So I do wonder, like if they

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Speaker 3: were here that long ago, when they've been a bass

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Speaker 3: enough to done something similar. So that kind of goes

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Speaker 3: through my mind and will be in some of those cases.

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Speaker 3: But in other cases, there's UFOs and artworks that goes

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Speaker 3: back to like the Middle Ages. Yeah, and people look

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Speaker 3: at these paintings, they say, well, what is that? That's

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Speaker 3: the UFO on the other half. You asked that our historian,

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Speaker 3: they'll say, well, that's how they represent the sun of

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Speaker 3: the moon. At that time, you know, they had like

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Speaker 3: a figure driving, you know, a vehicle that was representing

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Speaker 3: the moon, sort of a you know, cress and type

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Speaker 3: shaped objects. So again, some of it depends on the

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Speaker 3: perspective and the lens you're looking at through.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, interpretation.

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Speaker 2: I'm like in my own research, I am impressed by

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Speaker 2: some of these cases from the fifties or even sixties

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Speaker 2: where these craft are described by in military documents and

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Speaker 2: other and news accounts, where they fly circles around our

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Speaker 2: best plane. They do amazing things. You know, today, if

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Speaker 2: that happened, we'd blame it on Chinese drones or something

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Speaker 2: we just haven't discovered yet, Russians, Chinese, Israeli's, Iranians, whatever.

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Speaker 2: I find them to be pretty persuasive and give a

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Speaker 2: lot of credence to the idea that these are from

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Speaker 2: someone else, that someone else built them, given that they

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Speaker 2: were far in advance of what our planes could do

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Speaker 2: at the time.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how you feel.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I agree. I think that's a really

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Speaker 3: interesting way to look at because we can look at

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Speaker 3: the things the UAP that we're seeing now, and you know,

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Speaker 3: you could say, okay, is there a foreign adversary that's

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Speaker 3: far advanced, or you know, do we have technology that's

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Speaker 3: that far advanced? It's completely secret right now, you know, possibly,

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Speaker 3: But when you look back, like you said, the fifties

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Speaker 3: and you see the same kind of descriptions, it's hard

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Speaker 3: to imagine that anyone could have been that far advanced

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Speaker 3: back then. Right, like we talked about earlier, like the

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Speaker 3: U two that was far advanced in the fifties, but

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Speaker 3: something like you know, the the Tittack UAP, we weren't

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Speaker 3: that far along. No one was that far along back

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Speaker 3: in the fifties. So you do wonder, okay, well maybe

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Speaker 3: you can explain some of that way today, but how

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Speaker 3: do you explain it away from seventy years ago?

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Speaker 4: Right? Lee Spiagel was a friend of yours. Yes, you

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Speaker 4: cover his role in the United Nations.

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Speaker 2: There were attempts to get the United Nations into the

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Speaker 2: UFO mystery in a big way. I have on my

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Speaker 2: wall here, I have a collection of postage stamps from Grenada.

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Speaker 2: The Prime Minister of Grenada was actively involved and tried

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Speaker 2: to get the UN involved and he ultimately failed, but

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Speaker 2: he went and issued these postage stamps. Anyway, they're beautiful.

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Speaker 2: And our friend, the late Lee Spiagele was directly involved

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Speaker 2: in all that United Nations stuff. Can you share with

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Speaker 2: us a little bit about.

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Speaker 4: How that went?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So Lee Spiegel he started to investigating the UFO

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Speaker 3: phenomena in the nineteen seventies and he had his own siding,

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Speaker 3: which we can talk about twell, but he worked with

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Speaker 3: the president of Grenada. He Grenada had heard about Lee

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Speaker 3: Spiegel and he'd been trying to get something with the

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Speaker 3: UN going, and the League kind of stepped in, helped

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Speaker 3: them out and just helped organize the whole thing and

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Speaker 3: was able to get a lot of interesting people to

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Speaker 3: join him at the UN to have basically the first

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Speaker 3: time the United Nations that ever talked about uposed to

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Speaker 3: address this in front of you know, in front of

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Speaker 3: the world. So he head along with them Jacques la Gordon, trooper,

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Speaker 3: the astronaut Stanton Friedman, and another Army reserve Captain Lawrence Coint,

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Speaker 3: who had his own encounter in a helicopter. So he

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Speaker 3: had this amazing group assembled and they were able to

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Speaker 3: address the UFO phenomena in front of the United Nations,

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Speaker 3: and they were going to create basically a system where

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Speaker 3: international groups could cheer information and try to learn together

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Speaker 3: what was going on and just kind of facilitate the

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Speaker 3: whole process. And so this was all going along actually

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Speaker 3: quite nicely, until the President of Grenada was ousted and

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Speaker 3: that kind of made the whole thing fall through. This

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Speaker 3: was nineteen seventy eight, by the way, just for a

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Speaker 3: little more contact, but yeah, it was the first time

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Speaker 3: he'd never assembled it with the General Assembly of the

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Speaker 3: United Nations.

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Speaker 1: For the topic of UFOs, listen to more Coast to

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Speaker 1: Coast AM every weeknight at one am Eastern and go

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