Speaker 1: Well, if it worked for that person, it should work
Speaker 1: for me. Well maybe maybe not. Welcome to the one
Speaker 1: you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance
Speaker 1: of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out,
Speaker 1: or you are what you think ring true, and yet
Speaker 1: for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.
Speaker 1: We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We
Speaker 1: see what we don't have instead of what we do.
Speaker 1: We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.
Speaker 1: But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It
Speaker 1: takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life
Speaker 1: worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep
Speaker 1: themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their
Speaker 1: good wolf YEA, thanks for joining us. Our guest on
Speaker 1: this episode is Gretchen Reuben, one of today's most influential
Speaker 1: and thought provoking observers of happiness and human nature. Gretchen
Speaker 1: is known for her ability to distill and convey complex
Speaker 1: ideas with humor and clarity in a way that's accessible
Speaker 1: to a wide audience. She's the author of many books
Speaker 1: which have sold over three point five million copies worldwide
Speaker 1: in more than thirty languages. She also has an award
Speaker 1: winning podcast, Happier with Gretchen Reuben. Hi, Gretchen, Welcome to
Speaker 1: the show. I'm so happy to be talking to you today.
Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to have you on. You've written a
Speaker 1: lot of wonderful books, You've got a wonderful podcast, and
Speaker 1: we'll be getting into all those things here shortly. But
Speaker 1: let's start like we always do, with the parable. There
Speaker 1: is a grandmother who's talking with her grandson and she says,
Speaker 1: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that
Speaker 1: are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which
Speaker 1: represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the
Speaker 1: other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed
Speaker 1: and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he
Speaker 1: thinks about it for a second, and he looks up
Speaker 1: at his grandmother. He says, well, grandmother, which one wins?
Speaker 1: And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to start off by asking you what that parable
Speaker 1: means to you in your life and in the work
Speaker 1: that you do. Well. It's interesting because I'm a big
Speaker 1: fan of Star Wars. The Star Wars saga, and it
Speaker 1: reminds me of the Force, you know, where they always
Speaker 1: say the force. It's not that the dark side is stronger,
Speaker 1: but it's easier. And I think it's very much there.
Speaker 1: Like once I kind of can be easier, more impulsive,
Speaker 1: It can kind of give you that quick hit. Um.
Speaker 1: And sometimes the things that will make us happy over
Speaker 1: the long term are more demanding, and they may require
Speaker 1: us to do things that feel like a deprivation, or
Speaker 1: feel like an imposition, or take some more self mastery.
Speaker 1: So the two wolves are not equal in their accessibility
Speaker 1: to us. Um, They're both in there, um, But it's
Speaker 1: it's easier to get to one wolf than the other. Yeah, boy,
Speaker 1: that is true sometimes, isn't it That one of them
Speaker 1: is is certainly easier than the other. You've got some
Speaker 1: different things you call secrets of adulthood. And one of
Speaker 1: the things that I love is make sure the things
Speaker 1: we do to make ourselves feel better don't make us
Speaker 1: feel worse. Yeah. I quit sugar, which people are like,
Speaker 1: how in the world could you quit sugar? And what's
Speaker 1: the use of life without a brownie? And I say,
Speaker 1: not eating sugar makes me so much happier than eating
Speaker 1: sugar ever did, and yeah, it tastes good right now,
Speaker 1: but then I'm just in that cycle of craving and
Speaker 1: do I want more? And it's just this boring noise
Speaker 1: in my head. When and when I gave up sugar,
Speaker 1: I was just like, wow, now it's just gone. It's
Speaker 1: like wonderful, And so I realized I thought it was
Speaker 1: making me feel good, but in the end it was
Speaker 1: making me feel bad. Yeah, there's lots of things that
Speaker 1: are like that. And that is a great segue into
Speaker 1: one of the things I wanted to ask you about,
Speaker 1: because you've talked in the past about abstainers and moderators.
Speaker 1: So tell me just a little bit about that, and
Speaker 1: then I've got a couple of questions more specifically related
Speaker 1: to that. Yes. Well, when I was writing my book
Speaker 1: Better Than Before, which is all about the twenty one
Speaker 1: strategies we can use to make a break our habits,
Speaker 1: one of the things I realized is that a lot
Speaker 1: of times people are like, well, this is the right
Speaker 1: way to change a habit, or this is the best way.
Speaker 1: What I found is really there's a lot of variety
Speaker 1: in what works for people. Um, it's not the case
Speaker 1: that there's one best way. It's it's what way works
Speaker 1: for you. And I found that when it comes to
Speaker 1: facing a strong temptation, not a weak temptation, a strong temptation,
Speaker 1: people divide into abstainers and moderators. So abstainers are people
Speaker 1: who find it easier to give things up all together.
Speaker 1: They're kind of all or nothing types. And it's like me,
Speaker 1: I can have no thin mint cookies. I can have
Speaker 1: a sleeve of thin mint cookies. I can't have to
Speaker 1: thin mint cookies. I can't have half a dish of
Speaker 1: ice cream. I can't have a brownie bite without really
Speaker 1: wanting more and more and more. But if I have none,
Speaker 1: that's pretty easy for me. But then moderators they get
Speaker 1: kind of panicky and rebellious. If they're told they can't
Speaker 1: have anything. They want to have a little bit, or
Speaker 1: they want to have it. Sometimes they want to have
Speaker 1: a few French fries. And you know, these are the
Speaker 1: people that keep the bar of fine chocolate in their
Speaker 1: desk drawer and they're like, every day or so, I
Speaker 1: just have one square fine chocolate and that's all I need.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I couldn't do that, Like my whole
Speaker 1: day would be one score two scores three squares. Now later,
Speaker 1: it's my birthday, it's raining, I deserve it. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I might as well eat the whole thing at eight am,
Speaker 1: because otherwise this is going to distract me the whole day.
Speaker 1: And what's interesting is that, well, a lot of us
Speaker 1: are a mix in our approach. Like I can be
Speaker 1: a moderator about wine because I don't care about wine.
Speaker 1: But I have a friend who's like, I kind have
Speaker 1: no wine or I kind of four glasses of wine. See,
Speaker 1: I can have half a glass of wine and she
Speaker 1: can't because I'm not strongly tempted by it. But what's
Speaker 1: interesting is a lot of times people will help somebody, well,
Speaker 1: you're doing it wrong. People will say to me, it's
Speaker 1: not healthy to be so rigid. You shouldn't demonize a
Speaker 1: certain food. You shouldn't be so rigid. It's not healthy
Speaker 1: to say no to yourself. You should follow the rule.
Speaker 1: Even when I say, but this is what works for me,
Speaker 1: This makes me happier, This is how I can handle
Speaker 1: this in a way that works for me, And then
Speaker 1: I want to say the moderators, why do you keep
Speaker 1: breaking the rules. Why don't you just go cold turkey?
Speaker 1: Like why are you going back and forth between this
Speaker 1: because to me it feels like why are you even
Speaker 1: in the zone. Get out of this zone. But for
Speaker 1: them that's a much better approach. And so part of
Speaker 1: it is realizing what works for you might not work
Speaker 1: for someone else, or what works for someone else might
Speaker 1: not work for you. I think sometimes we blame ourselves
Speaker 1: when we struggle and someone else has success. Instead of thinking, well,
Speaker 1: maybe I need to try a different approach, we think, well,
Speaker 1: maybe I need to turn into a different kind of person. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's so true about it being different for everybody.
Speaker 1: If there's anything I've learned from coaching so many people
Speaker 1: over the years is that same thing doesn't work for
Speaker 1: everyone and if you just have one solution. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's interesting because I'm a big believer in sort of
Speaker 1: the middle way. Like you know, I'm a big believer
Speaker 1: in moderation and a lot of things. But I'm also
Speaker 1: an alcoholic and an heroin addict, and so it's like
Speaker 1: there are some things in life that I'm like, moderation
Speaker 1: really works for me, and then there's a couple other
Speaker 1: pretty important ones that it's like, nope, I have to
Speaker 1: be an abstainer there. It's the only way that's ever
Speaker 1: worked for me. And so I love the fact that
Speaker 1: you identify that people can be a moderator in one
Speaker 1: area and an abstainer in the other, and that and
Speaker 1: that we're just not all the same. Well, it's interesting
Speaker 1: that you mentioned because I think with alcohol, drugs, and cigarettes,
Speaker 1: people except that some people can't have a little bit,
Speaker 1: they kind of embrace the idea that some people just
Speaker 1: have to give something up altogether, and that you sort
Speaker 1: of have to organize your life around that because it's
Speaker 1: just it's just not acceptable to have a little bit.
Speaker 1: It just doesn't work. But with things like sugar, people
Speaker 1: really often feel like, well, that's not right, That isn't
Speaker 1: a right belief. You should be moderate. Even though I'm
Speaker 1: saying it doesn't work for me, I'm not saying that
Speaker 1: it's the same thing, but I'm saying my just the
Speaker 1: the ease with which I can go through life is
Speaker 1: very much the same. And you know, somebody said to me, well,
Speaker 1: the thing about sugar is or like you know, with food,
Speaker 1: is an alcoholic can give up alcohol, but I can't
Speaker 1: give up food. And I was like, an alcoholic doesn't
Speaker 1: give up water, they're not drinking alcohol, they're not not
Speaker 1: drinking and you can still eat and not eat junk
Speaker 1: food or not eat processed food, or whatever the rule
Speaker 1: it is that you want. There's more possibilities because I
Speaker 1: think sometimes people do get locked into this should work
Speaker 1: for me, and I need to just keep doing it
Speaker 1: over and over and over again even if it's not working,
Speaker 1: instead of saying, well, let me try a different way.
Speaker 1: And I think that's so important because what happens when
Speaker 1: we keep trying the same thing over and over and
Speaker 1: over again in the same way, as we come to
Speaker 1: the conclusion that we are somehow broken or bad or
Speaker 1: can't do it, instead of going, oh, maybe my approaches
Speaker 1: is it? What's absolutely and it's very poignant for people
Speaker 1: to say I have no will or I have no
Speaker 1: self control, I can't keep my promises to myself, instead
Speaker 1: of thinking, well, let me just set this up in
Speaker 1: a different way. It's kind of I think a lot
Speaker 1: of time, and maybe you see this in coaching. When
Speaker 1: people have a strong model in their life of somebody
Speaker 1: who did it and had success, they're kind of like, well,
Speaker 1: if it worked for that person, it should work for me.
Speaker 1: Well maybe maybe not just the fact that like your
Speaker 1: husband did something one way doesn't mean it's gonna work
Speaker 1: for you. Yeah, and that's what I like about different
Speaker 1: aspects of your work. We'll talk about the four tendencies
Speaker 1: here in a minute. You know, these different sort of
Speaker 1: types the way we respond expectation, you know, abstainers versus moderators, um.
Speaker 1: You talk often about paradoxes, you know, how these two
Speaker 1: things happen to be true. And I think that's just
Speaker 1: so important is to see, like, again, there are some
Speaker 1: principles that can be generally helpful, but but not for everybody.
Speaker 1: And the last thing I'll say on abstainers versus moderators,
Speaker 1: and you'll probably relate with this, is I often say,
Speaker 1: you know, there's just beautiful clarity in none. Yes, beautifully,
Speaker 1: but yeah, there's no debate, there's nothing that has to
Speaker 1: be figured out. It's just none. Well. And one of
Speaker 1: the things that's very true is we're very susceptible to
Speaker 1: decision fatigue. And and this is why you see like
Speaker 1: Barack Obama wearing the same few suits, or you know,
Speaker 1: people having work wardrobes or um, people eating the same
Speaker 1: lunch every day. Is that every little decision that we
Speaker 1: make take something out of us. So moderation requires decision
Speaker 1: making because it's like when am I being moderate? When
Speaker 1: am I having too much? What is too much? Moderation,
Speaker 1: of course, is relative, So what you think of is
Speaker 1: moderate is also relative to who you surround yourself with.
Speaker 1: So how do you think about that? There's a lot
Speaker 1: of mental processing, whereas you're right with none. It's just
Speaker 1: totally clear, totally clear, there's no decision, and then that
Speaker 1: willpower doesn't have to engage. Wonderful. Well, let's move into
Speaker 1: your four tendencies model, and the four tendencies basically is
Speaker 1: you say people respond to expectations differently. That would be
Speaker 1: the best way to phrase that. So that sounds so boring,
Speaker 1: but it ends up being really cheesy. Yeah, well, let's
Speaker 1: let's jump into it. Tell me, tell me a little
Speaker 1: bit more. Yeah, so we all these two kinds of expectations.
Speaker 1: Out our expectations, which is like a work deadline or
Speaker 1: request from a friend, and then in our expectations, which
Speaker 1: is like my own desire to keep a New Year's
Speaker 1: resolution or my own desire to get back into meditation.
Speaker 1: And depending on how we respond to outer and inner expectations,
Speaker 1: were either an upholder, a questioner, and a bliger or
Speaker 1: a rebel, and I'll quickly define them, and almost always
Speaker 1: people know exactly what they are. Plus like different characters
Speaker 1: from Game of Thrones, and like everybody else in their life,
Speaker 1: their kids, their coworkers, um. But there is a quiz.
Speaker 1: If you like to take a quiz and have an
Speaker 1: answer spit out at you, some people do. There's a
Speaker 1: quiz at quiz dot Gretchen Rube dot com and like
Speaker 1: two and a half million people have taken it. It's
Speaker 1: quick and free and it will give you an answer.
Speaker 1: But like I said, most people can just tell from
Speaker 1: this description. So questioners are people who readily me inner
Speaker 1: and outer expectations. So they meet the New year's resolution
Speaker 1: and they meet the work deadline without much fuss. They
Speaker 1: want to know what other people expect from them, and
Speaker 1: they want to meet those expectations. But their expectations for
Speaker 1: themselves are just as important. So their motto is discipline
Speaker 1: is my freedom. Then there are questioners and questioners questionable expectations.
Speaker 1: They'll do something if they think it makes sense. They
Speaker 1: resist anything arbitrary, ineffective, unjustified. They're always looking for reasons
Speaker 1: if something satisfies their inner demands for justification, they will
Speaker 1: do it no problem. They will have no problem following through.
Speaker 1: If it fails their inner standard, they will resist. So
Speaker 1: their motto is all comply if you convince me. Why
Speaker 1: then there are obligers, and obligers readily meet outer expectations,
Speaker 1: but they struggle to meet inner expectations. So I got
Speaker 1: my first insight into the four tendencies when a friend
Speaker 1: said to me, I don't unders standard. I know I'm
Speaker 1: happier when I exercise. And when I was in high school,
Speaker 1: I was on the track team and I never missed
Speaker 1: track practice. So why can't I go running now? Well?
Speaker 1: Why it's the same person. It's the same behavior. At
Speaker 1: one time it was effortless. Now she can't do it.
Speaker 1: So what it is is the expectation. When she had
Speaker 1: a team and a coach expecting her to show up,
Speaker 1: she could go. But when she's trying to go on
Speaker 1: her own, it's a challenge. So the important thing for
Speaker 1: obligers to realize. And this is where coaches come in.
Speaker 1: This is why coaches are so valuable for bligers. If
Speaker 1: there is an inner expectation to be met, there must
Speaker 1: be a form of out her accountability. If I want
Speaker 1: to read a book, I need to join a book group.
Speaker 1: If I want to exercise, I need to work out
Speaker 1: with a trainer or take a class or work out
Speaker 1: with a friend who's going to be annoyed if I
Speaker 1: don't show up. I need out her accountability. So their
Speaker 1: motto is you can count on me, and I'm counting
Speaker 1: on you to count on me. And then finally rebels,
Speaker 1: rebels resist all expectations out or an inner like. They
Speaker 1: want to do what they want to do in their
Speaker 1: own way, in their own time. They will do anything
Speaker 1: they want to do. They can do anything they choose
Speaker 1: to do, but if you ask or tell them to
Speaker 1: do something, they're very likely to resist. And typically they
Speaker 1: don't tell themselves what to do, like they don't sign
Speaker 1: up for a ten am yoga class on Saturday because
Speaker 1: they're like, I don't know what I'm gonna want to
Speaker 1: do on Saturday, and just the idea that somebody is
Speaker 1: expecting me to show up is going to annoy me.
Speaker 1: So their motto is you can't make me, and neither
Speaker 1: can I. So those are the four and they're not
Speaker 1: the same number. The biggest tendency for both men and women.
Speaker 1: Is obliger the smallest tendency. It's conspicuous but small is rebel,
Speaker 1: and then my tendency, the apholder tendency is only slightly larger.
Speaker 1: So rebel is the smallest and obliger is the largest.
Speaker 1: And so let's walk through each of those just a
Speaker 1: little bit more how to kind of work with those. So, so,
Speaker 1: an upholder is somebody who meets internal and external. So
Speaker 1: that sounds perfect like, okay, I will I will do that,
Speaker 1: but obviously nothing is perfect. No type is better than
Speaker 1: another type. So let's talk about what if people are
Speaker 1: an upholder, has been important for them to know you're
Speaker 1: exactly right. Each of these has strengths and weaknesses. Each
Speaker 1: has people who are wildly successful and also big losers,
Speaker 1: and the strengths are the weaknesses, you know, as so
Speaker 1: often happens. So the strengths of the upholder, they're great
Speaker 1: at execution, there sell starters, they don't need supervision. They're
Speaker 1: great at following through. But they can be rigid. They
Speaker 1: get an idea in their head of how things are
Speaker 1: supposed to go. It's very hard for them to be flexible.
Speaker 1: They can be cold because it's like, oh, hey, the
Speaker 1: reports are doing Friday, and you're asking me if I
Speaker 1: can proof free to your report, but you know I
Speaker 1: can't do that because my reports due to and I
Speaker 1: don't have time to help you out to an upholder
Speaker 1: that seems appropriate in our expectations must be met. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we've got companies staying with us this weekend, but you
Speaker 1: know I'm training for the marathon, so I gotta go
Speaker 1: for a fifteen run on Saturday. So that's just going
Speaker 1: to happen, you know. And so that can seem cold, um,
Speaker 1: And they can sometimes be judgmental because they don't understand
Speaker 1: why others um struggle in situations we're in a holder
Speaker 1: would not struggle. If you get upholders together, they will
Speaker 1: often start talking like why can't other people just get
Speaker 1: their stuff done? This idea of understanding changing circumstances, needing
Speaker 1: to be flexible, needing to work in situations where it's
Speaker 1: not clear what success looks like, or where it's ambiguous, um,
Speaker 1: what the rules are. They can really struggle in those
Speaker 1: kinds of environments. One of the things that I often
Speaker 1: see in a lot of clients is it's sort of
Speaker 1: the all or nothing mindset, like I need to exercise
Speaker 1: an hour a day, and if I can't exercise an
Speaker 1: hour a day, then I just say effort and I
Speaker 1: don't do anything. Would that fall into an upholder or
Speaker 1: do you see that sort of strain of perfectionism really
Speaker 1: running through all the groups? Well, that is a fascinating
Speaker 1: question that I think that probably you would see less
Speaker 1: of that and upholders, because upholders would kind of build
Speaker 1: that in. That's the kind of thing they're sort of
Speaker 1: good at dealing with. But that is something that many
Speaker 1: people struggle with. It's sort of the don't break the chain,
Speaker 1: and then if the chain is broken, it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: well this is just ruined. Um. Yeah, So I think
Speaker 1: that that is something where you sort of have to
Speaker 1: deal with it as a separate threat. But probably ap
Speaker 1: holders might struggle with that less than others. In fact, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just tend to see that sort of rigidness, right,
Speaker 1: you know, because what I've discovered about keeping certain habits
Speaker 1: going over a long period of time is it takes
Speaker 1: a certain amount of stubbornness and a certain amount of flexibility. Well, see,
Speaker 1: this is what's interesting. So the rigidity for the upholder
Speaker 1: is what others perceived. I'm an upholder. I don't perceive
Speaker 1: myself as rigid at all. I feel free. And that's
Speaker 1: hard for people who are an upholders to understand, is
Speaker 1: how free we feel. We feel so free because we
Speaker 1: can do what we put our minds to, we keep
Speaker 1: our promises to ourselves. But from the outside it looks
Speaker 1: rigid because they're like, it's scary to me how much
Speaker 1: you stick to that, And it's like, it doesn't feel
Speaker 1: scary from the inside. I have a friend who's an
Speaker 1: upholder and she went to the gym like three hundred
Speaker 1: and sixty days in a year, and to me, I'm like,
Speaker 1: that's cool, and other people were like, that's said. Really
Speaker 1: people said that to me, and I'm like, there's nothing
Speaker 1: sick about it's it's not easy. But the rigidity is
Speaker 1: really how others perceive or like when like you're changing
Speaker 1: the schedule on me, well, I I was going to
Speaker 1: work from three to five and now you're telling me
Speaker 1: that I can't. But interestingly, when they did research on
Speaker 1: social media, what they found is that people with high conscientiousness,
Speaker 1: which is up holders, were actually had a very high
Speaker 1: use of words like leisure and weekend because One of
Speaker 1: the things up holders tend to be good at is
Speaker 1: building in what they need to do to execute, so
Speaker 1: they will say I need a day off, I feel
Speaker 1: like my knee is weakening. To stay the course, I
Speaker 1: need to not train for three days. They're sort of
Speaker 1: good at drawing those boundaries and giving themselves leisure and rest.
Speaker 1: They might put it on the counter, like I'll put
Speaker 1: on the calendar. I'm gonna read on the sofa for
Speaker 1: two hours on Saturday, but it's still leisure to me,
Speaker 1: but it's scheduled. I have to schedule time to goof off.
Speaker 1: That looks rigid, but it feels free, So they they're
Speaker 1: often good A bligers are the ones who really struggle
Speaker 1: with feeling like everyone's pushing me around and I can't
Speaker 1: push back. Let's talk about questioners. So, as you said,
Speaker 1: questioners are the people who they're not going to do
Speaker 1: anything just because someone told them to yes. And one
Speaker 1: of the ironies I thought in what you wrote is
Speaker 1: that questionnaires hate being questioned. Yes. Yeah, I'm married to
Speaker 1: a questioner and this is like a huge relief to
Speaker 1: me to realize that this was not just him constantly
Speaker 1: jerking my name. It's ironic, as everybody comments, it's ironic
Speaker 1: the questioners something like to answer a question, But it
Speaker 1: is a very common kind of pattern that you see
Speaker 1: among questioners, which is very funny. Yeah, right, And so
Speaker 1: what sort of things do questioners need to know or
Speaker 1: or what sort of things help them to be better
Speaker 1: at changing and sticking to habits? Well, when questioners struggle
Speaker 1: with like keeping a habit, like if a questioner says
Speaker 1: to me, like, I know I should exercise, and I
Speaker 1: really want to commit to it, but I'm just not
Speaker 1: able to stick to it. For questioners, it's always about clarity.
Speaker 1: Questioners need to really feel the confidence that you're the
Speaker 1: authority that I trust. This is the best and most
Speaker 1: efficient course to take. This is customized to what I need.
Speaker 1: Questioners love to customize. Once they're clear, then their actions follow.
Speaker 1: But if they're kind of thinking, well, should I be
Speaker 1: doing high intensity weight training or should I be doing cortio,
Speaker 1: and like is it really more important to do cross
Speaker 1: fit or would I be better off doing something outside
Speaker 1: When they haven't really made up their minds, it's like
Speaker 1: they often don't move forward. So for them, clarity is
Speaker 1: really important. You're my doctor, and you're telling me what
Speaker 1: to do. Do I really believe in you? Because if
Speaker 1: I don't believe in you, I'm probably not going to
Speaker 1: do what you say. It's not enough for me that
Speaker 1: you're a doctor. I need to trust your authority. And
Speaker 1: that's a high bar for many questioners question or sometimes
Speaker 1: suffer from analysis paralysis because their desire for perfect information
Speaker 1: makes it hard for them to move forward or to
Speaker 1: make a decision. And uh, I mean I know two
Speaker 1: people who are questioners who are married, and they were
Speaker 1: trying to buy a new dishwasher and it took eighteen
Speaker 1: months because anytime one of them was like, what about this,
Speaker 1: the other one be like, but what about that? And
Speaker 1: what about this? And if we're gonna put in a
Speaker 1: new dishwasher, maybe we should put in new countertops. And
Speaker 1: it was just like they spiraled out of control. So
Speaker 1: questioners need to learn how to manage that need, that
Speaker 1: desire for just more and more and more research. Questioners
Speaker 1: do love to customize. They love to hack. So they
Speaker 1: love anything that allows them to like monitor or like
Speaker 1: step count or attrack their food or their spending. They
Speaker 1: tend to do very well with things like that. They
Speaker 1: can in some circu umstances seem draining and overwhelming because
Speaker 1: it's like, oh my gosh, everybody else has heard enough
Speaker 1: in the meeting and you're still asking questions. So they
Speaker 1: need to be aware of that, and they also need
Speaker 1: to be aware that sometimes their questions can make others
Speaker 1: feel defensive or attacked. So it's like, if I'm a
Speaker 1: thin skinned boss and you keep asking me questions, I
Speaker 1: might feel like, well, you're not a team player and
Speaker 1: you don't trust my authority, and you know, I don't
Speaker 1: understand why you're not just following what I say. But
Speaker 1: of course the question or they're like, well, the idea
Speaker 1: that this is what corporate says to do, or this
Speaker 1: is what you're telling me to do, or this is
Speaker 1: what we've always done, that's totally illegitimate to me. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to do it because that so we have
Speaker 1: to recognize that questioners need answers to their questions. This
Speaker 1: comes up a lot with children. You know, children will
Speaker 1: say things like why do I need to memorize the
Speaker 1: multiplication nables if I can just look it up on
Speaker 1: a calculator. Well, they need an answer to that. Why
Speaker 1: do they Because if you don't give them an answer
Speaker 1: they're not gonna want to do it, and if you
Speaker 1: explain to them why this is really important and then
Speaker 1: they'll do it. But they need to have that answer.
Speaker 1: So would that mean that people might move through different
Speaker 1: being an upholder, a questionnaire obliger throughout life, because it
Speaker 1: does seem that a lot of children are naturally questioners.
Speaker 1: It isn't the case that we're one at ten and
Speaker 1: one at forty, or one at work and one at home.
Speaker 1: I am a big believer in the genetic personality. I
Speaker 1: think these really are hard wired to you. And when
Speaker 1: you hear questions like little kids ask questions like why
Speaker 1: is the sky blue? Their question is why should I?
Speaker 1: You know? Um, you're telling me I can't drive barefoot?
Speaker 1: Why can't I? And then also people will say, well,
Speaker 1: little kids are all rebels? Are all teenagers are rebels?
Speaker 1: It's like they really aren't. If you know what it's
Speaker 1: like when somebody's like you simply can't tell me what
Speaker 1: to do. Um, that is different from just like a
Speaker 1: kid who doesn't want to go to bed. And then finally,
Speaker 1: obligers obligers, that's right, biggest santency and obliges are really
Speaker 1: important for anybody in a coaching relationship because I to me,
Speaker 1: this is like why coaching is so crucial for a
Speaker 1: huge percentage of people and what can be a game
Speaker 1: changer because it represents out of accountability, so obligers. There
Speaker 1: are the folks who need outer accountability to meet outer
Speaker 1: and inner expectations. And this is why a lot of
Speaker 1: people they're like very puzzled, because they're like, well, it work.
Speaker 1: I never missed a deadline, I never let down my team.
Speaker 1: But then at home, I can't go running. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm not making my bed every morning or whatever it
Speaker 1: is that I'm trying to do. And so what is
Speaker 1: necessary is out our accountability. And you see this a
Speaker 1: lot when people go freelance or like I know a
Speaker 1: lot of journalists who then go on book leave. A
Speaker 1: writer might think, oh, I have writer's block, and I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: when you were working for a newspaper, you had an
Speaker 1: editor and a deadline and a group of people holding
Speaker 1: you accountable. But now that you're writing a book on
Speaker 1: your own, no one's looking over your shoulder, and so
Speaker 1: you're just kind of spinning your wheels. And what you
Speaker 1: need is out of accountability. So join a writer's group.
Speaker 1: Or get a coach, or tell your agent that you
Speaker 1: will email her chapter every four weeks, and if you
Speaker 1: don't hand it in, she's like, where's that chapter? I
Speaker 1: like was planning to read it this week end, and
Speaker 1: now you screwed up my schedule. Um. That's what can
Speaker 1: really work for obligers, and it's really remarkable to see
Speaker 1: how for so many obligers this is like the light
Speaker 1: bulb that lets them have massive change in their life.
Speaker 1: Because a lot of times obligers are like, I need
Speaker 1: to learn to put myself first. I need to get
Speaker 1: clear in my priorities. I need I need to get
Speaker 1: more motivated. That's really a bad direction. You can't expect
Speaker 1: to be motivated by motivation, and so obligers will try
Speaker 1: to whip themselves into a frenzy of desire and then
Speaker 1: they can't understand why that doesn't turn into action, and
Speaker 1: it just doesn't turn into action unless there's a form
Speaker 1: of outer accountability. Great, and then finally rebels. So rebels
Speaker 1: resist all expectations, and so it's very exciting to be
Speaker 1: with rebels because they're very authentic, they know exactly what
Speaker 1: they want to do. They can flout convention. They love
Speaker 1: thinking outside the box. But it's hard to live or
Speaker 1: work with people who, if you ask your tell them
Speaker 1: to do something, are very likely to resist. So the
Speaker 1: key for rebels is to remember for rebels themselves, if
Speaker 1: they're trying to get themselves to do something or someone
Speaker 1: else is one is a key value for rebels is
Speaker 1: uh identity. So you're doing this not because the doctor
Speaker 1: told you to, or not because I told you to,
Speaker 1: or not because you know you should, or not even
Speaker 1: because you said you would. You're exercising because you're an athlete.
Speaker 1: You love to move your body, you love to be outside,
Speaker 1: you love that feeling of being alive and vital. You're
Speaker 1: doing it because you're an athlete, or it's information consequences choice.
Speaker 1: You say to the rebel, well, you know we have
Speaker 1: these mandatory ten a m. Staff meetings on Wednesday that
Speaker 1: you don't go to. UM, let me tell you what
Speaker 1: happens at those meetings. UM, we look at all the
Speaker 1: upcoming projects, and the people who are at the meeting
Speaker 1: grab the good ones, the interesting ones, and we leave
Speaker 1: the boring ones for the people who skipped the meeting.
Speaker 1: So the meeting is at ten a m. On Wednesday.
Speaker 1: It's up to you, man, because you can go or
Speaker 1: not go. But it's also important if you're dealing with
Speaker 1: the rebel, don't rescue them because then there's no negative consequences.
Speaker 1: They have to be allowed to experience a get of
Speaker 1: consequences and don't remind them or try to nudge them
Speaker 1: or encourage them, because every time you nudge them, you
Speaker 1: ignite the spirit of resistance. So the best thing to
Speaker 1: do with the rebel is like give them information, consequences, choice,
Speaker 1: and then back away. And that is easier said than done,
Speaker 1: especially with children. But the more you remind, the more
Speaker 1: you ignite the spirit of resistance. Yeah, it's funny when
Speaker 1: I look at these four tendencies, I feel like I
Speaker 1: do with a lot of personality types or tests that
Speaker 1: I take, which is I feel like I'm like in
Speaker 1: each camp I seem to own. When I take these tests,
Speaker 1: I seem to fall. What did you take the quiz
Speaker 1: I did? Did it give you a question er? It
Speaker 1: gave me a Bliger. Well that's interesting because I would
Speaker 1: have predicted a bliger because you're a coach, and coaches
Speaker 1: are often obliger's because they understand, like they think everybody's
Speaker 1: like that. Doesn't everybody need out our accountability. But questioners
Speaker 1: often feel like they're a little bit of everything because
Speaker 1: they'll say, well, I if something makes no sense, I'll
Speaker 1: refuse to do it like a rebel, But if it
Speaker 1: makes sense, I'll do it like an apholder. And I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but that you're saying, why would I? And that's questionnaer. So,
Speaker 1: how do you feel about nearest resolutions? If they make
Speaker 1: sense to me, I'm I'm on board with them. How
Speaker 1: do you feel about the fact about making them on
Speaker 1: January one? I think it's a useful time for reflection,
Speaker 1: but I'm not dead set on it. I'll make a
Speaker 1: resolution any time. Okay, I think you are a questioner,
Speaker 1: I would say you were a questionnaire. Yeah. It's funny
Speaker 1: because if I look at different periods of my life,
Speaker 1: I seem to you know, there's certainly periods of my
Speaker 1: life or I was a rebel, Like I'm not doing
Speaker 1: anything that anybody tells me to do, including myself. Question er.
Speaker 1: It's often like, well, I'm not going to do it
Speaker 1: because that doesn't make any sense, or why would I
Speaker 1: do that? I'm not going to go to college. By
Speaker 1: what I go to college? It looks like a rebel action.
Speaker 1: But the rebel is saying, I'm not going to college
Speaker 1: because you're telling me to go to college. The question
Speaker 1: are saying, why would I go to college? I have
Speaker 1: to go for you know, it doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 1: It sense I would do it, but why am I
Speaker 1: going to waste my time and my energy? Yeah? And
Speaker 1: I love what you said at one point, And I
Speaker 1: think this is always so important with personality tests. It's
Speaker 1: not about pigeonholing people into limiting categories. It's providing insight.
Speaker 1: I'm always interested in personality tests because there's one part
Speaker 1: of me that's like, I think there's insight and I
Speaker 1: learned something about myself. And I also don't want to
Speaker 1: only sort of take on this more limited identity exactly.
Speaker 1: I totally agree. And I also think that one of
Speaker 1: the things about that science, about the four tendencies is
Speaker 1: it can save people energy and time because like, let's
Speaker 1: say you're trying to exercise, just because that's such a
Speaker 1: common thing. It's like, if I know what tendency you are,
Speaker 1: I could be much more strategic in telling you what
Speaker 1: I think is going to work for you. There's a
Speaker 1: million bazillion ways that a person could try to get
Speaker 1: them to get themselves to exercise, what do I think
Speaker 1: is going to work for you? And then and that
Speaker 1: can save you time and energy and just and to
Speaker 1: kind of unlock that so much more quickly for you
Speaker 1: instead of just throwing spaghetti against the wall. And often
Speaker 1: you know, people will say you're doing it wrong because
Speaker 1: to me as an uphold, or what you're doing seems
Speaker 1: like I'll say, I don't want to be your babysitter.
Speaker 1: Why don't you just do your own work in your
Speaker 1: own way. Well, that's very about that advice for an obliger.
Speaker 1: It's great advice for an poulder, that's my advice to me,
Speaker 1: but it's not good advice for you, and so as
Speaker 1: it's counterproductive. Obligers need out our accountability. Rebels don't do
Speaker 1: well without our accountability. They don't want someone looking over
Speaker 1: their shoulder, they don't want check ins and monitoring. So
Speaker 1: if you have an obliger and a rebel, you could
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, we need to go in very different
Speaker 1: directions here because you're coming from such different perspectives. Again,
Speaker 1: it's not that one way is right or better, it's
Speaker 1: just that when we know what you are, we can
Speaker 1: tailor it too. What is going to be successful? I
Speaker 1: want to back up to something you sort of set
Speaker 1: in passing as we are going through these and you said,
Speaker 1: I'm a big believer in the genetic based personality idea.
Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit more about that, because I'm
Speaker 1: not sure I share that perspective, but I'd love to
Speaker 1: hear your perspective on it. Yeah, I think a lot
Speaker 1: of personality is inborn, and of course it's shaped by
Speaker 1: our culture and our personal circumstances and our environment and
Speaker 1: even before we're born. Of course, up the genetics is fascinating,
Speaker 1: a new study of like how are surroundings in our
Speaker 1: environment affect us even before we make our first appearance
Speaker 1: in the world. You know, I do think a lot
Speaker 1: of things are hard wired and that one way or
Speaker 1: and other certain things come out, you know, like I've
Speaker 1: been in Upholder's sensus. You know, as far back as
Speaker 1: I was me, everyone in my life would you know,
Speaker 1: say yes, you are a little Hermione Granger type personality. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't think. That wasn't the way my parents raised me.
Speaker 1: It was part of what I brought into world. Now,
Speaker 1: of course, then there's that feedback because the way that
Speaker 1: I am affects the way people treat me. And if
Speaker 1: you're a question er and you're born in North Korea,
Speaker 1: of course you're gonna shut that down. And if you're
Speaker 1: a question or Silicon Valley, that might be your your
Speaker 1: greatest outset. So it's not like there's no influence. But
Speaker 1: I do think a lot of these things are are
Speaker 1: part of what we bring into the world, many aspects
Speaker 1: of our nature. Well. I think it's interesting because in
Speaker 1: one of your books, it might have been your first
Speaker 1: book about happiness, you referenced the studies that sort of say, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, current thinking about happiness says that it is
Speaker 1: I don't remember the exact number, genetic, some other you know,
Speaker 1: part is this, and then tw circumstances with his age, occupation,
Speaker 1: marital status, all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, And I think,
Speaker 1: you know, I always with all these debates like is
Speaker 1: it genetic, is it environment? Is it? I think it's
Speaker 1: you know, the unquestionable answer is it's all of them,
Speaker 1: and it's just you know, what's useful is what levers
Speaker 1: can I actually pull exactly? The lesson is given the
Speaker 1: place in which I've been placed by providence. How can
Speaker 1: I move forward in the way that's right for me,
Speaker 1: given my life situation, given my inborn personality, given whatever
Speaker 1: I've learned from life, which might be good, might be bad.
Speaker 1: What can I do? That raises a broader question of
Speaker 1: how much can people change? And I think this is
Speaker 1: a fascinating question because I'm an example of pretty dramatic change.
Speaker 1: And I'll just I'll give this as an example because
Speaker 1: I was reflecting on it recently. You know, at twenty
Speaker 1: four I got sober and I was I was a
Speaker 1: heroin addict, and at that time in my life, I
Speaker 1: would have done nearly anything to get my hands on drugs,
Speaker 1: and I do mean I think I would have done
Speaker 1: nearly anything. Luckily I didn't have to. And then this
Speaker 1: spring and summer, my mom fell and was in a
Speaker 1: lot of pain. And for four or five months, every
Speaker 1: week I went to the grocery and I picked up
Speaker 1: a bottle of percoset or stronger pills, and I carried
Speaker 1: them to her and I just gave them to her,
Speaker 1: and it didn't trouble me at all. And when I
Speaker 1: sort of reflected back on that, like, wow, that's a
Speaker 1: long way if you told me that was ever possible.
Speaker 1: Always said no way. Yeah, maybe I could deliver him
Speaker 1: to her, but it would be really hard. And the
Speaker 1: truth was I barely thought about it. So that's like
Speaker 1: one now again. Addiction is kind of a narrow lens
Speaker 1: on change, but but I do find it just It's
Speaker 1: one of those questions that fascinates me all the time.
Speaker 1: How much are we able to change? And what can
Speaker 1: we change? I mean, that is a million dollar question.
Speaker 1: That is the fascinating question. And I got an email.
Speaker 1: I wish I had saved it because I'm haunted by it.
Speaker 1: I got an email from a woman. She described her
Speaker 1: life and how there was many many things in her
Speaker 1: life that we're not going right. And she said, every
Speaker 1: night I go to bed and pray that tomorrow will
Speaker 1: be different and that things will change. And I was
Speaker 1: just like, they're not going to change that way. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like you have to think about how can I
Speaker 1: be the instrument of change or like, you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's not something that's going to magically happen one morning.
Speaker 1: If you just want it badly enough, there has to
Speaker 1: be action. Um, And to me, I guess that's what's
Speaker 1: most interesting to me is we can think about all
Speaker 1: we want, but what is the action? Because action is
Speaker 1: concrete action I can do. I can't get to my mind.
Speaker 1: Like people are like, how can I become more optimistic?
Speaker 1: I'm like, I have no idea. I ignore everything that
Speaker 1: happens in the skull because who knows? You know, don't
Speaker 1: talk to me about you know, dopamine? Like, who can?
Speaker 1: I don't know? But our actions we can affect our actions,
Speaker 1: And so to me, when I think about change, I'm
Speaker 1: very focused on the concrete action that people can take
Speaker 1: drake in the hopes of achieving an aim, because that's
Speaker 1: the thing that we can most readily control. Um, it's
Speaker 1: within our grasp. I agree. I use a phrase often.
Speaker 1: I don't know where I picked it up, but that
Speaker 1: listeners that show have heard of a a thousand times, which
Speaker 1: is something. Times I can't think my way into right action.
Speaker 1: I have to act my way into right thinking. Oh
Speaker 1: that's so brilliant, that's so true. Way to say it again,
Speaker 1: Sometimes I can't think my way into right action. I
Speaker 1: have to act my way into right thinking. So true
Speaker 1: and so much easier, yeah, so much easier to control
Speaker 1: our conscious thoughts and actions are conscious actions. They can
Speaker 1: control our conscious and unconscious thoughts. That's really hard, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like take the easy road man. To me, it's like, okay, um,
Speaker 1: if you know you're gonna be happier if you exercise,
Speaker 1: I would focus all my attention on, like how can
Speaker 1: I go for a twenty minute walk a day? Instead
Speaker 1: of being like how do I make myself into the
Speaker 1: kind of person who just effortly loves to run, It's
Speaker 1: like can you do that? I don't know if you
Speaker 1: can do that? Sounds hard, right, right? And you can certainly,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, momentum and variety of different things
Speaker 1: help with all that. But but I'm with you, and
Speaker 1: then I sort of see this on like a spectrum,
Speaker 1: and I'd be curious to kind of get your thoughts.
Speaker 1: Like one hand, we've got thoughts, we've got emotions, and
Speaker 1: we've got behavior right, and behavior is the easiest lever
Speaker 1: to pull right, and emotion seems to be like completely
Speaker 1: you know, encased in stone. You can't get to it.
Speaker 1: And then thoughts to me seem to be sort of
Speaker 1: in the middle, like I can't stop what thoughts come,
Speaker 1: because like I just if you meditate, you realize that
Speaker 1: in like two minutes, like, oh my god. But I
Speaker 1: do have some ability to say, Okay, here this thought came,
Speaker 1: what am I going to do with it? And am
Speaker 1: I going to engage it? Am I going to move on?
Speaker 1: You know, to use the addiction process again. I was
Speaker 1: talking with somebody about this recently. I said, Well, the
Speaker 1: one thing I've never allowed myself to do is I've
Speaker 1: never allowed when the thought has come about using I've
Speaker 1: never toyed with it. I changed the channel, you know,
Speaker 1: I have to. I may have to change that channel
Speaker 1: seventy five times. So again I can't stop it from coming.
Speaker 1: And so it seems like behaviors easiest, emotions impossible, and
Speaker 1: thoughts are kind of in the middle, you know. And
Speaker 1: this reminds me like in the I was saying better
Speaker 1: than before. I talk about the twenty one strategies of
Speaker 1: have a change, and one of the strategies is the
Speaker 1: strategy of distract. And I think distraction now has this
Speaker 1: very negative overtime because we think of ourselves as being
Speaker 1: distracted or like being distracted from what's important by our
Speaker 1: social media or whatever. But you're talking about a purposeful,
Speaker 1: mindful kind of distraction, which is as you say change
Speaker 1: the channel, you are choosing the channel. You have a
Speaker 1: lot of control about what's on that TV screen. And
Speaker 1: maybe you need to like get up and and turn
Speaker 1: on your favorite song, or maybe you need to go
Speaker 1: outside or need maybe you need to play with your dog,
Speaker 1: or maybe you need to call a friend. But there's
Speaker 1: ways we can't intervene to just to use distraction as
Speaker 1: a powerful and helpful tool. I mean, this is I
Speaker 1: mean talking about addiction. With craving. One of the things
Speaker 1: they find is that people think that cravings build and
Speaker 1: build and build and then overwhelmed us. But at least
Speaker 1: with like kind of sugar cravings or that kind of thing,
Speaker 1: you've got them and then they kind of go away.
Speaker 1: They don't last out long. And if you distract yourself,
Speaker 1: it's fine. But sometimes people are like, oh, well, now
Speaker 1: it's like now that I've got the thought of ice cream,
Speaker 1: it's like I can't I'm just stuck here, and so
Speaker 1: I eat go to the kitchen and eat like a
Speaker 1: carton carton ice cream because it's like that thought is
Speaker 1: in my mind. You can change the channel. Um, obviously,
Speaker 1: with something like Harolin, that's a much, much, much bigger deal.
Speaker 1: You're mindfully doing that. Yeah, And the principle is the same.
Speaker 1: And I agree with you about distraction. I do think
Speaker 1: like for a lot of us, there is an almost
Speaker 1: you know, pathological distraction that we live our lives in.
Speaker 1: But but I often, you know, I end up working
Speaker 1: with a lot of people who are dealing with the
Speaker 1: variety of troublesome thought patterns, right, And you know, I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: here's three healthy things you can try doing. And if
Speaker 1: those three healthy things don't work, you know what, do
Speaker 1: anything else except ruminate on that thought more, do anything
Speaker 1: except strengthen that pathway. And I noticed that in your work,
Speaker 1: and I was one of the other things that was
Speaker 1: on my list to talk about because I agree. I
Speaker 1: don't think distraction is always bad. I mean, it's like everything.
Speaker 1: It's a good servant and a bad master. So when
Speaker 1: you feel like you're mindfully using it as a tool
Speaker 1: to fill your mind with the thoughts that you want,
Speaker 1: then it's good. It. If you feel like you're being
Speaker 1: hijacked by Instagram and like now you can't like think
Speaker 1: of thought or have a conversation with your kids because
Speaker 1: your phone is calling to you, then you feel like, okay,
Speaker 1: it's the boss, and that's a bad feeling. So there's
Speaker 1: many things. And if you have that feeling that it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: we'll turn up your notifications and turn your phone to
Speaker 1: gray scale and put your phone on a shelf in
Speaker 1: a behind a closed door. Like there's a million things
Speaker 1: you can do once you realize that's the problem. But
Speaker 1: I think the real issue, and this is like implicit
Speaker 1: and what you were saying is that when we feel
Speaker 1: passive like this is happening to me, what are you
Speaker 1: gonna do? Then we have no recourse. But when we
Speaker 1: say I am the boss here, this is my mind,
Speaker 1: what will I do to direct my mind along the
Speaker 1: path that I want and that it's going to make
Speaker 1: me happier and healthier. Well, we are the boss and
Speaker 1: we you know um. And it's easier said than done,
Speaker 1: Like all this stuff, it's easier to it's easy to
Speaker 1: talk about it. It's very hard to do it. So
Speaker 1: this is why you need a lot of st ategies
Speaker 1: and tips about well, go listen to some great music
Speaker 1: and dance around the kitchen or you know whatever it
Speaker 1: might be, take a shower and blast music. Can almost
Speaker 1: never overestimate the value of music, at least for me,
Speaker 1: and in being a healing thing. You probably knew this.
Speaker 1: I only realized this recently, is that music releases dopamine
Speaker 1: in the brain, and so it seems to me that
Speaker 1: it would be a very good counter to any kind
Speaker 1: of craving because of what you're needing is like a hit.
Speaker 1: Listening to one of your favorite songs gives you that hit,
Speaker 1: gives you that feeling of pleasure and satisfaction. Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: said before, there's few types of therapy that are as
Speaker 1: good for me as loud music. Sometimes like just the
Speaker 1: right thing better than what else I've got. Well, I
Speaker 1: think now this is one of the things where like
Speaker 1: new technology has been really helpful as people talk all
Speaker 1: the time about their playlists that they have made, and
Speaker 1: people used to don't make mix tapes and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: but now the technology makes it so much easier to
Speaker 1: have like your psych up tape and you're you're you know,
Speaker 1: contemplative tape, and you know, people have these their too.
Speaker 1: If they need to kind of invoke a certain mood,
Speaker 1: they can pick and choose the music that's going to
Speaker 1: get them into that place right away. And I think
Speaker 1: that's a wonder I am not a big music person myself,
Speaker 1: so it's not something that I enjoy doing. But I
Speaker 1: certainly see so many people around me like really using
Speaker 1: this in a powerful way and it's free, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's like this is great. Yeah. No, I talk about
Speaker 1: that a lot because for me, I know music is
Speaker 1: one of those things that helps. And I'm also a
Speaker 1: person who deals with depression, and I know that music
Speaker 1: helps with depression. The challenge for me is that if
Speaker 1: I'm depressed and I go should I listen to music?
Speaker 1: I go no? And should I then remember that, yes,
Speaker 1: I should listen to music. I'll open up my music
Speaker 1: and I'll go, do I want to listen to that? No? No, no, no,
Speaker 1: because nothing sounds good. So I have a playlist that
Speaker 1: I know, like, just go to that playlist, hit shuffle,
Speaker 1: turn it up, and it's got a decent chance of helping.
Speaker 1: And you talk a lot about this about you decide
Speaker 1: ahead of time. So what's the name of your playlist.
Speaker 1: It's just called positive. That's good kind of boring. I
Speaker 1: like that. Oh good, Yes, that's a great idea. So
Speaker 1: we're nearing the end of our time. I just want
Speaker 1: to hit a couple of your Secrets of adulthood on
Speaker 1: the way out, because some of these are so great,
Speaker 1: and one just really hit me recently because well, it's
Speaker 1: just something that's been going on in my life. And
Speaker 1: you say, if you're too tired to do anything except
Speaker 1: watch TV or cruise, the internet goes, yes, right, we've
Speaker 1: all been there. Yeah, yeah, No. I find myself laying
Speaker 1: in bed at the end of the night kind of
Speaker 1: wasting time. And if you ask me, I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm too tired to do anything else, but it occurs
Speaker 1: to me like go to sleep. And so you know,
Speaker 1: for me, I've been doing sort of a january where
Speaker 1: it's like the phone is not in the bedroom. And
Speaker 1: this is recognizing this truth as part of the thing
Speaker 1: that helped me to be like get it out of here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: more sleep if you need it. It's like it is
Speaker 1: the it's the elixir of life. Yes. And so you've
Speaker 1: got a variety of these. You say that the opposite
Speaker 1: of a great truth is also true, and I kind
Speaker 1: of want to talk about that real quick because one
Speaker 1: of these that you use, and I love this is
Speaker 1: accept yourself and expect more from yourself. So tell me
Speaker 1: a little bit about that. How do you do both
Speaker 1: those things? Well, you know, I think that's the great
Speaker 1: tension within kind of the challenge of a happy life,
Speaker 1: because on the one hand, we do want to accept
Speaker 1: ourselves and admit kind of our basic nature and not
Speaker 1: to constantly wish that we were different or fight against
Speaker 1: something that's the sort of part of who we are.
Speaker 1: But then at the same time, you don't want to
Speaker 1: just throw up your hands and be like, well, here
Speaker 1: this is the way I am. There's no way to change.
Speaker 1: We really do want to expect more from ourselves. But
Speaker 1: I think for each person only I can be the
Speaker 1: judge of what that means for me to accept myself
Speaker 1: or to expect more for myself. Um, And like an
Speaker 1: example from my own life is I'm a really fearful driver.
Speaker 1: My sister is too. My sister lives in l A,
Speaker 1: such she has to drive all the time. Fortunately I
Speaker 1: live in New York City, so I don't have to
Speaker 1: drive very much. But in a way that's bad because
Speaker 1: I can go a really, really long time without driving,
Speaker 1: and my fear of driving kind of got bigger and bigger,
Speaker 1: and now I really have to force myself every time
Speaker 1: I'm in a situation where I can drive. Once I'm driving,
Speaker 1: I'm fine, but I dread driving. And I'm like, should
Speaker 1: I just accept myself and say, hey, Gretchen, you're just
Speaker 1: a person who doesn't drive. And I'm like, no, this
Speaker 1: is a place where I can really expect more for myself.
Speaker 1: I cant. I know how to drive. I've been driving
Speaker 1: since I was sixteen years old. I can expect this
Speaker 1: of myself, even though it kind of fills me the
Speaker 1: sort of dread. For someone else, they might think about
Speaker 1: that in a different way, and you know, people have
Speaker 1: all different kinds of struggles public speaking. Is this something
Speaker 1: that I'm gonna expect for myself or am I going
Speaker 1: to be like public speaking is not my bag? Different
Speaker 1: people would have different decisions about that. That very idea
Speaker 1: has been something I've talked about on the show so
Speaker 1: many times and asked so many people about. Which is
Speaker 1: like this fundamental sort of like you said, attention that
Speaker 1: sits there between like striving and growing and changing and
Speaker 1: being who we are, and it's you know, I'm a
Speaker 1: I been a student of Buddhism for a long time,
Speaker 1: and a very simplified explanation of Buddhism, and it is
Speaker 1: vast over simplification as well. You you struggle because you
Speaker 1: want things right and that. Yet I look at the
Speaker 1: universe and I'm like, well, the universe just seems to
Speaker 1: be constantly more and more and more, and so I've
Speaker 1: always felt that tension. And I think the answer for me,
Speaker 1: and the reason I don't ask the question is often anymore.
Speaker 1: But I kind of came up against it right in
Speaker 1: your work, was it. Well, it's really both, And like
Speaker 1: you said, I have to figure that out for myself,
Speaker 1: and it's not even always the same line, even with
Speaker 1: the same thing for me, But I just have to
Speaker 1: do that. But if I get too far to either
Speaker 1: side of that, I find myself in trouble. A question
Speaker 1: that sometimes it's helpful, like in that place of tension
Speaker 1: where you say where it really can be very hard
Speaker 1: to tell, Like which which is the way to think
Speaker 1: about something? Is the idea to choose the bigger life
Speaker 1: because for everyone the bigger life looks different. And I
Speaker 1: remember when my family was deciding whether to get a dog.
Speaker 1: Um I had a list of pros and cons. I
Speaker 1: was pretty anti dog. Everybody else is very pro dog,
Speaker 1: and I felt like it was very bad. Pros and cons,
Speaker 1: and so how do you make a decision? And then
Speaker 1: I thought, we'll choose the bigger life. And I instantly
Speaker 1: knew that the bigger life for my family was to
Speaker 1: get a dog. That made it very clear. And I
Speaker 1: think sometimes people are like, Okay, you have an opportunity
Speaker 1: to moderate at this conference. You can moderate a panel.
Speaker 1: You feel really nervous about it. There's reasons to do it,
Speaker 1: Maybe there's reasons not to do it. Maybe it would
Speaker 1: consume so much energy and time that you would be
Speaker 1: better spent doing other things. You can play out the
Speaker 1: pros and cons. But then if you said choose the
Speaker 1: bigger life. I think for some people they'd be like,
Speaker 1: you know, the bigger life is to let go of
Speaker 1: the idea of moderating. That is just not my way.
Speaker 1: For me, the bigger life is to do the amazing presentation,
Speaker 1: or to do the slides, or to plan the networking
Speaker 1: event or whatever. And someone else would be like, choose
Speaker 1: the bigger life. I got to moderate this thing. I
Speaker 1: want to get up front, I want to get the
Speaker 1: mic in my hand. That's the bigger life for me.
Speaker 1: So something to that question like clarifies because it's like
Speaker 1: only you know what the bigger life is for you.
Speaker 1: I absolutely love that. It's a different way of saying
Speaker 1: something that I can't remember who who said it, but
Speaker 1: it was like, you know about a choice is does this?
Speaker 1: Does this expand me? Or contract me? Right? Exactly just
Speaker 1: but I like, is it a bigger life as a
Speaker 1: real simplifying question. I think that's a wonderful idea. Well,
Speaker 1: I think that's a great place for us to wrap up. So, um,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on. I've really enjoyed
Speaker 1: talking with you. Well, thank you so much. I feel
Speaker 1: like we could talk for a long time. We're interested
Speaker 1: in all the same things. We sure are, we sure are,
Speaker 1: and um we'll have links in the show notes to
Speaker 1: your books as well as your wonderful podcast. Terrific. Thanks
Speaker 1: so much, thank you. If what you just heard was
Speaker 1: helpful to you, please consider making a donation to the
Speaker 1: one you Feed podcast. Head over to one you feed
Speaker 1: dot net slash support. The one you Fee podcast would
Speaker 1: like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show.