1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Maureen Hoban, one of the producers with Here's 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: the Thing. We're in the middle of our summer staff 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: picks where those of us that Here's the Thing presents 4 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: some of our favorite episodes from the archives. This week, 5 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: I want to share with you two interviews from incredible 6 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: American storytellers, host and producer Ira Glass and director producer 7 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: Alex Gibney. As someone who has worked in media and 8 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: documentary for some time now, I've always been bowled over 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: by the unmatched abilities of Ira Glass. Before Everyone and 10 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: their Brother had a podcast, and even before Alec, Ira 11 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,279 Speaker 1: Glass has been weaving incredible stories on public radio as 12 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: producer and host of This American Life since. With his 13 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: unmistakable voice and natural, winsome delivery, Ira Glass makes it 14 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: look easy as he presents tales that can make you 15 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,840 Speaker 1: giggle as they break your heart, that prove the truth 16 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: is indeed stranger than fiction, and that just might teach 17 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: you something along the way. Here's Alex two thousand fourteen 18 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: cover station with Ira Glass. Ira Glass caused a revolution 19 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: in public radio, and he is now its primary kingmaker. 20 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: Glass wasn't the first to share well crafted stories about 21 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: so called ordinary people, but his show This American Life 22 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: connected with a younger generation of public radio listeners, and 23 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: they became fiercely loyal. Ira Glass has become so popular 24 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: that the winner of this year's Halloween contest in Fort Green, 25 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: Brooklyn was a dog, the small, white, fluffy type, dressed 26 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: as Ira. This is a level of fame I didn't 27 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: quite know existed. Is this what you bargain for? No? 28 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: Has this happened to you? I've never won the Fort 29 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: Queen Pupster Halloween custom event. You've got me there. I mean, 30 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm a little jealous. Yeah, yeah, I'm not 31 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: sure jealousy is exactly the right word, but it's something. 32 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: It's a weird thing to have happened. Um, how do 33 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: you feel about? I mean, I listened to Fred Armison 34 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: do the episode with you where he's doing you, and 35 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: I try to do you all the time because you 36 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: fit into a category all those yours works. Yours is 37 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: yours is of a style of announcer, host, journalists, broadcaster, 38 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: or whatever you want to call it. I mean, I 39 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: hear so many people now on the radio who are 40 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: the opposite of what I grew up with, and I 41 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: think it comes down to, like, what do you think 42 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: authority comes from? And back when we were kids, authority 43 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: came from enunciation, precision, delivery, and a kind of gravitas 44 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: that you are bringing to the character you're playing. And 45 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: I think that you know, not just me, but a 46 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: whole generation of people feel like, well, that character is 47 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: obviously a phony pretending to be this like cartoon, sort 48 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: of like the newscaster on The Simpsons with a deep voice, 49 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: having gravitas, And so I think a lot of us 50 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: just went in the other direction. And for me, I 51 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: felt like, you know, any story hits you harder if 52 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: the person delivering it doesn't sound like some news robot, 53 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: but it sounds like a real person having the reactions 54 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: a real person would have and be surprised and amazed 55 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: and amused the very thing I'm talking about you were 56 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: aware of when you were doing your show and conscious of, 57 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: you know. And I mean I started off at MPR 58 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: when I was nineteen, at MPRE and Washington doing what 59 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: First it was an intern, and then I worked on 60 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: a documentary series where I learned a lot of things. 61 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: By the time I was I was I was a 62 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,519 Speaker 1: production assistant, and all things considered does that mean I've 63 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 1: been between college basically, go to project to come back. 64 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 1: I went to Northwestern for two years and then switched 65 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: to Brown. Graduated from Brown in semiotics, which is a 66 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: field of sort of pretentious literary theory, but actually is 67 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: all about how to structure a narrative. So it's enormously 68 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: practical training. And there are things that I learned in 69 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: school that I use every day to this day. But anyway, 70 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: then we go back and forth between college and working 71 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: at MPR. And at first when I tried to be 72 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: on the radio like most people like, I tried to 73 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: be the official thing, and then at some point I 74 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: trained myself out of it because I thought it's not 75 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: as effective. Ut yeah, yeah, exactly, And are obviously has 76 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: like a tradition of people going back to the seventies 77 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: who talked not like normal announcers, but like people. Susan 78 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: Stanberg was the host of All Things Considered, which I 79 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: think people today might not even remember. This lady who 80 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: really set a tone where she she just seemed like 81 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: some Upper west Side New York lady, like leaning into 82 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: the microphone mentally talking to you over the radio. Did 83 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 1: you just say mentually the adverb mentally, you don't get it. 84 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: You don't get that doesn't get that's that's that's an 85 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: advert that's only on the oper But I got she 86 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: was mentally leading into the microphone yes and talking like 87 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: a person. So there were other people doing it. I 88 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: heard people doing it. I was just like, that's the 89 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: direction I gotta go in. I mean, when I think 90 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: about your show, I wonder what it's like for you 91 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: editorially in terms of do you sit there and you 92 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: consciously try to take out of any political point of view? 93 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: I mean, the kinds of stories we're doing, I think, 94 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: you know, when we take on something that's in the news, 95 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: you know, what we're working for is a story with 96 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: characters and scenes and emotion and and looking for a 97 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: way to to show something new that people don't know. So, 98 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 1: for example, when we did an hour in Guantanamo, like, 99 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: we didn't go into it advocating Guantanamo should be shut 100 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: down or it shouldn't be shut down, you know, like 101 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: we don't. We don't have an agenda that way. Like 102 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: when we did an hour on it, we did an 103 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:16,799 Speaker 1: hour because it had been a couple of years into 104 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: Guantanamo existing, and we read that I can't remember the 105 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: number of people, the number of detainees, like a couple 106 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: of hundred detainees had been released. We had discovered, like 107 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: you know, the US did determined like you guys aren't 108 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: enemy combatants. You guys, you know, go back to Pakistan 109 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: or wherever. And we had noticed that nobody in America 110 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: interviewed them just to ask like the normal things, you 111 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: know that like you want to know, like how were 112 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: you treated? Do you want to kill us? All on? 113 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: And then so like you go into that, like you 114 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: the question of like what our stand politically on Guantanamo is. 115 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 1: It doesn't know. I appreciate that, but I'm warning to 116 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: people sometimes view you as being liberal. Of course they 117 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: do because we're because our public radio, which is seen 118 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: as liberal. Though though when you look at the studies 119 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: of like what actually gets covered on the news programs 120 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: in the way it's covered, I feel like the numbers 121 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,919 Speaker 1: bear out the fact that it is not more liberal 122 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: than other news sources. That said, there's a tone in 123 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: the way certain things are covered that conservatives here, and 124 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 1: from talking to conservatives, like I know like that, I 125 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: think that's a real thing. Um, I think at one 126 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: point there was a show that we did on one 127 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: of the elections, and it was about how people voted 128 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: them why they voted the way they voted. And I 129 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: had a long series of discussions with these people who 130 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: are like swing voters, because I was fascinated with it, Like, Alec, 131 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: you just think about like an election of like Carry 132 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: versus Bush, and you're coming down to like the last 133 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: three weeks before the election. Who are the people who 134 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: haven't decided? Like how can you like like whatever you say, 135 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: like those are two very different Yeah, Like what do 136 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: you have to know? Like you know them both really well? 137 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: Like what exactly? Especially people who are following the news, 138 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: like like what is there to wonder about at that point? 139 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: And I think in that show I came out and said, look, 140 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: I'm a Democrat, just said to the audience, because I 141 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: felt like there was a point in the discussion. In 142 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: my interviews people were identifying as Republican or Democrats, and 143 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: I felt like, why pretend anything but this like usually 144 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: about democratic that said, like many Democrats, I find them 145 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: to be the most annoying party and so not representing 146 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: what I believe on so many issues, and so lacking 147 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: in so many ways, and so not doing what I 148 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: would have them do. So even saying that I usually 149 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: about democrat, I feel it doesn't even get near what 150 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: my actual politics are. But if I have to pick, 151 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: I make that choice reluctantly. It's the same thing as 152 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: like we've done so many stories about God. At some 153 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: point I've went on the air and said, like, look, 154 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: I don't believe in God. Like, I'm just going to 155 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: put that out in front, So take everything you're about 156 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: to hear with the grain of salt that you should. Right, 157 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: it's just truth and packaging. And I think that it's 158 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: different for me as somebody who's on once a week, 159 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: you know, doing a documentary show that's coming like a 160 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: bunch of different stuff. It's different for me than it 161 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: is for like the hosts of All Things Considered, or 162 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: Brian Williams or you know what I mean. Like, it's 163 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: just my role is different, and so I think I 164 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: have that freedom. When did you realize you don't believe 165 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: in God? How old were you a teenager? Did you 166 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: grow up in a religious household? Up? It's weird. My parents, 167 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: we were Jews in the suburbs. So I went to 168 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: I went to Hebrew School and then went to the 169 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: high school version of that, Like I continued past my environmentsvah, 170 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: and at some point I realized I didn't It just 171 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: didn't add up from it, like you know, you're in 172 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: love or you're not in love. Like it's just like 173 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: there's another explanation for everything around me, which makes more 174 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: sense than there's a big dad who created this all 175 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: you know, and just you know, universe have been here. 176 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: There was like some sort of something happened, Yeah, something 177 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: like you know, people climbed up on the shores of Yeah. Actually, 178 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: when I was thirteen and fourteen, Like one of the 179 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: things that was a huge influence on me was you 180 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: remember remember these books Eric van Daniken was the author 181 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: Chariots of the Gods. Oh my God, I love this, 182 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: And I remember being in Hebrew College, bottom of Hebrew 183 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: College and arguing with the teachers. They are these old 184 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: rabbis about like, but this passage in like Exodus or Genesis, 185 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 1: wouldn't this be better explained by these paintings on the ground, 186 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: you know, like that we were actually visited by the 187 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: whole theory of a For people who don't know what 188 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 1: this is. It was like this series of books and 189 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: there was TV specials and stuff that if you actually 190 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: looked at it, it seems like what they're trying to 191 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: tell us is people visited us from outer space and 192 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: that's that's what they witnessed. Scientology really is closer to 193 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: what we've been exactly. Scientology has a good point on 194 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: to it. I remember arguing that in Hebrew College with 195 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: my professors there, and they were not They did not 196 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: buy it. Are you an atheist? No, I believe. I 197 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 1: don't know what I believe in terms of the specific. 198 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: I had a Catholic priest once say to me, listen, 199 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: I believe in a piece of many religions. The Jews 200 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: have something to say, and the Muslims have something to say, 201 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: and the Buddhists have something to say, the Hindus have 202 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: something to say. He says. Sometimes I think I'm a 203 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: Catholic because they just own the nicest real estate and 204 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: have the nicest places to hang out in. And I mean, 205 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: this is a priest that said that to me. He says, 206 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: you know, and I'm I believe in a god. I 207 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: believe in. I mean, I believe something had to be 208 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 1: responsible for this, and I also believe, oddly enough, as 209 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: a result of some stories I've heard on your show, 210 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,079 Speaker 1: you know, you know, life itself and stories that come 211 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: to me make me believe there must be some God 212 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: behind this is my belief on a fact. Obviously, my 213 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: atheist message is not coming through the Subliminally you fail, 214 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: failing hard for one thing. You fail exactly. Are there 215 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: some shows? Having said that, I have to say, like 216 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:22,719 Speaker 1: we do a lot of shows and religion. We do 217 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: a lot of shows on faith because I think it's 218 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: it's not covered very well, like if it's it's a 219 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: sort of an area of opportunity if you're if you're 220 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: a reporter or documentary producer, like in America, it's one 221 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: thing that's actually the media do is a terrible job 222 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: with and it's gotten better over the last fifteen years, 223 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: but still like not so great of covering people of 224 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: faith and covering them in terms that are that actually 225 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: document people's relationship with their faith, like generally in the media. 226 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: Like there's a whole phase of our show where where 227 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:49,719 Speaker 1: this was like a big thing we were doing a 228 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: lot of because my feeling like looking at the way 229 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: people who were religious were covered, there would be these 230 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: cartoon characters, right like there you know, you see them 231 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: like these right wing inflexible like Doctrineaire and their beliefs. 232 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: And when I compared that to the actual Christians who 233 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: were in my life, they were super thoughtful and way 234 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:12,199 Speaker 1: more compassionate and way more just just the way they 235 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: lived their religion was so radically different, even though they 236 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: were very devout, radically different from what I was seeing. 237 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: I was like, we need to document this because this 238 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: is a whole territory of stuff. And so we did 239 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: a whole set of stuff where I went out with 240 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: kids on their mission trip and we did this thing 241 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: about this minister named Carlton Pearson, and just we did 242 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff because it seemed like an uncovered 243 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: territory and obviously like doing that without and he I 244 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: wasn't trying to bring anybody over to my side. That 245 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: would be boring. I wasn't interested. And I had a 246 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: friend of mine who was an actor who I worked 247 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: with once. He was very devout, very observant jew me 248 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,319 Speaker 1: and his wife, and I once said to him what 249 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: does it mean to you? And like, what what is 250 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: Judaism to you? And he said to me, it's the 251 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: study of how we as human beings distinguished ourselves from 252 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: the animals. And when he said that it has leveled me. 253 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: I'll take that. I take all these little pieces and 254 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: I say to myself, my dad died and I just 255 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: had this such an incredible emotional connection to my father. 256 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: The President of the United States were shot in nineteen 257 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: sixty three. Their energy was such a force in my life, 258 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: in the in the world at large. Where did they go? 259 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: Does that energy that is the human soul and the 260 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: human essence just dissipate? And is it, you know, like 261 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: the light switch, like when you think when you die, 262 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: it just over. It's over. And I do think that, 263 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: though I'm always given pause by this. A Billy Collins 264 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: poem called it the Afterlife, where the thesis of the 265 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: poem is that each one of us goes to the 266 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: afterlife that he believes in. And I'm always scared of like, 267 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: oh no, if I believe that that's what I'm going 268 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: to get. It's funny I thought the same thing. Someone 269 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: said to me, what do you think is the afterlife? 270 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: And do you believe in that idea? Maybe they based 271 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: it off this poem. They said that when you die, 272 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: it's as soul in your imagination, and they said, what 273 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: do you think happen in the afterlife? I said, mine's 274 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: pretty mundane, mine's pretty sad. He said why. I said, 275 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: when you go into a room and it's a screening 276 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,599 Speaker 1: room and God is there. We sit down and it 277 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: gets you some iced tea and of a sandwich, and 278 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 1: he's like, so, what do you want to know? And 279 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: you look at me and you know where he knows 280 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: he's got and you're like, you know, He's like, okay, 281 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: Larry roll the film and they showed me what really 282 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: happened in Kennedy's assassination. I want them to start to 283 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 1: tell me the truth. One can you also in that 284 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: version of it, be like okay, So on this date 285 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: in the year, my wife and I got into an argument. 286 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: I swear she said this, and then I said this, 287 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: and then she said this. She swears mine is very cinematic, 288 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: and I say, they say, okay, show me the movie. 289 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: Who was the girl that really loved me the most? 290 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,439 Speaker 1: Rolling see, you get your answers, you find out, you 291 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: get your answers. You want your answers, You want your answers. 292 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: What a shame you don't get to do anything with 293 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 1: that information. You know, like as a film, Like if 294 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,359 Speaker 1: this were to be a film, the thing you're describing 295 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: it needs a third act. Observing that my Afterlife of 296 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: Fantasy requires a third act comes instinctively to Ira. He 297 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: can't help but think about a conversation as if he's 298 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: the editor, marking these structural strengths and weaknesses of each anecdote. 299 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 1: More of my conversation with Ira Glass coming up. This 300 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 301 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: In January of two thousand twelve, This American Life Friend 302 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: excerpts of performer Mike Daisy solo show The Agony and 303 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: the Ecstasy of Steve Jobs. The episode featured segments from 304 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: Daisy's Peace, in which he visited a factory in China 305 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: that made iPhones. Two months after Daisy's Peace aired, a 306 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: reporter discovered discrepancies in his story. Mike Daisy had made 307 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: things up. This American Life retracted the story, and Ira 308 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: and his team had to ask themselves, how did this happen? 309 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: We were pretty good fact checkers, I thought before Mcdaisy 310 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: and and uh, you know, I worked at MPR News 311 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: and we were at the level whether we were at 312 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: an MPR News wake. We looked into it as well 313 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: as we could. We talked to over a dozen people 314 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: who had either been those factories or human rights groups 315 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: that monitored those factories, and you know, people confirmed everything 316 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: that he said in the story as things that really 317 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: happened in these plants, with one exception. He said that 318 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: he met a fifteen year old going into work at 319 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: a factory making apple products, and all the human rights 320 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: workers everybody we talked to said like, actually apples like 321 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: super great about that, and like would be very hard 322 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: for a subcontractor to have underage workers, and has been 323 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: a leader in this so if that happened, it was 324 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: a fluke. And in the original show we did with him, 325 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: I confronted with that and he's like, oh, yeah, I 326 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: don't know what to tell you. Anyone to know, show 327 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: me a picture of the person, which isn't really telling, 328 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: but he said, you know they you know, they gave 329 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: me proof, and we sort of put it all of 330 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: that out there. Did that make you angry? Well, then 331 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: we found out like the one thing that we didn't 332 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: do is we didn't talk to his translator, and he said, look, 333 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: I got this phone number, but when I call it 334 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: it doesn't you know. It's some lady in China I 335 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: met at the hotel and like, and so we you know, 336 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: we we we gave up, you know, we didn't do that, 337 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: which at that point we should not have put the 338 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: thing on the radio. After we broadcast, another reporter found 339 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: that translator and she said basically, she was with him 340 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: his whole time, and all these things that he says 341 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: happened did not happen. And so did that make you angry? 342 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: People trust you, they admire you, and no one, no 343 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: one falls you for that obviously, And I don't know, 344 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: you're not gonna say this. This is me say this. 345 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: Mike Daisy may be gifted, but he's full of shit. 346 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: But the thing is, when that happened, did that piss 347 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: you off? Did that make you angry? I wish him, 348 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: I mean maybe at some level. Like honestly, like my 349 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: first reaction was not being mad at him. Um is 350 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: an atheist thing. No, yeah, we've just given up on life, 351 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: alec no um. I mean, I mean honestly, like the 352 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: main thing I thought is like I just wondered if 353 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: we were all going to keep our jobs, you know 354 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: what I mean? Like I really wondered, like, is this 355 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: it is the radio show over? Like that was the 356 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: main thing. I thought, I don't know, I just I 357 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: just it was a mix of things. Mad was in 358 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: there somewhere about definitely was not the biggest part. Other 359 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: people in my staff were definitely like, way matter at 360 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: him and we're mad. But I had worked with him 361 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: so closely and adapting the thing for the radio I 362 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,199 Speaker 1: felt very close to him actually, and I just felt like, like, like, 363 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: your friend did something. I mean, what you know, I 364 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 1: just made him do you had a bit of a relationship. 365 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: With that relation, I said like, oh no, like what 366 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: have you done? And that was a way bigger part 367 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: of it. But but you were asking like they have 368 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: things changed around the radio show since then? And the 369 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: answer is is yes. And now, in addition to doing 370 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: like all the stuff we did back when I worked 371 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: on Morning Edition and all things considered to like, see 372 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: the stories are true, we have professional fact checkers like 373 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,919 Speaker 1: the New York or something, and so every script has 374 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: gone through by fact checkers who we hire, and they 375 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: go back to all the sources in the story and 376 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: they go back to everything and it's just like it's 377 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: a huge it's a lot of work, but I have 378 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 1: to say it's been glad Way, it's been awesome. What 379 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: does Ira Glass do in his private time? I mean 380 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 1: when you're not working, when you have downtime, When I 381 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: have downtime. Honestly, I don't have a huge amount of 382 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: downtime like usually on the sliver of it you have, Um, 383 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 1: I walk my dog, try to spend a little time 384 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: with my wife. What She helps run a website for 385 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: teenage girls with Tommy Givenson. This now, I think she 386 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: just turned eighteen year old girl who's starting on Broadway, 387 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 1: but has this website called Rookie mag dot com. And 388 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: basically Tavy decided that there should when she was fifteen 389 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: years old and in high school. She thought, as a 390 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: teenage girl, there was all this culture being marketed to her, 391 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: and none of it accurately sort of described the world 392 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: that she saw it or seemed to capture the things 393 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: that were most interesting to her. And so she decided 394 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,719 Speaker 1: she would make that herself and organized kind of an 395 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: army of young women to do it. It's three posts 396 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: a day. It's really funny writing and just like it's 397 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 1: it's wonderful. And so my wife helps her, helps her. 398 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: I find it incredible that even with the slightest prompting, 399 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: you can give me the bio or the story. You 400 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 1: can tell everyone's story about your own. You can tell 401 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: everyone can tell my story. You only gave us the 402 00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: dog walking, and you said, and I love that. I 403 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: spent time with my wife. What other what do you 404 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,479 Speaker 1: watch news? Do you watch TV to like films? Music? 405 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, like, I have seen so little of 406 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 1: anything in the last probably a year, just because um, 407 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: we have the radio show we started the second show. 408 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: I've been touring with a dance show all over the 409 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: country and so on the weekends and either going and 410 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: making a speech to earn enough money to live in 411 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: New York City because I still work at a public 412 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: radio salary and live in New York City, or I 413 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: go out with this dance show where I tour with 414 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: this professional dance troupe where I tell stories and they 415 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: dance in this way. Whose idea was that? That was 416 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: me and the choreographer. It was the choreographer of the 417 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: dance company. We were trying to figure out a way 418 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: to work together. She's like, well, let's do a thing 419 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: where we combine our things, and I was like, yes, 420 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: you're the speaking. Yes, you must be dancing very fast 421 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: choreography sometimes sometimes yeah, must be flying through the air. 422 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact. Yes, when you say trying 423 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 1: to make a living on a public radio salary, I 424 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: mean you you could pay yourself. I'm not saying this 425 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: to embarrass you, but you could pay yourself X and 426 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: you don't you fold it all back into the show, correct? Yes, 427 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: I mean you decided to do that because I go 428 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: on the radio and ask people for money, and I 429 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: thought that it's unseemly to be making a crazy amount 430 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: of money. If you had more time, what would you do? 431 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: I think I would just consume more culture. I would 432 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: I would go to more movies and read more. Like 433 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: I still have never seen, you know, half the TV 434 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: shows that I hear about, and I know that I'll like, 435 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: but I haven't seen like in a few months ago. 436 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: I watched all of Game of Thrones at some point, 437 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: you know, a year ago. Yeah. I liked it a lot. Yeah. 438 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: And are you saying that in the tone of like, no, 439 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: you did not like it? No, no, no, no, no, 440 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: I never cast any judgment or what people like it entertainment? Yeah, no, 441 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 1: And I watched all of Louis, you know, like I 442 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:49,239 Speaker 1: hadn't caught up on the light. I can watch old 443 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: episodes of the match game on the Game show Network. 444 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: I mean that's where that's my comfort zone when I 445 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: was a kid growing up. Love it. But anyway, so 446 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: so no, I do no watching of anything. Like basically 447 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: I'm working. I'll see a friend maybe for food, see 448 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: my wife walk the dog, and then that's that's it. 449 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: It's midnight, and then I'll go to the gym. It's 450 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: not so super glam and if I had more time, 451 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: I would just basically, you're working, consume more culture. I 452 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: feel like, if anything, it's it's a problem the way 453 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: I'm doing this because I'm not consuming enough. Do you 454 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: think it's gonna last forever? I don't know. I don't 455 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 1: have another plan besides this like this. I like this 456 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: so like I like making stuff. I like editing, I 457 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,959 Speaker 1: like writeing to share in people. Yeah, I like like 458 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: people love the show and and it's secure, like it 459 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: just feels like, oh my god, it's it's there are 460 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: enough people who like it that it's a totally solid business. 461 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: And then also it does well enough that we can experiment. 462 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: I put on a movie with Mike Barbiglia, you know, 463 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, and we can um, you know, 464 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: and we do these events where we do them on 465 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: stage and beam them into movie theaters around the country. 466 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: And we did a show at BAM where we had 467 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: you know, somebody wrote a musical for it and opera 468 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: and all this stuff built out of real stories about 469 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: journalism turned into like a Broadway musical with real Broadway 470 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 1: you know, performers, you know, and so like it's big 471 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: enough that we can kind of do anything we want 472 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: with that, and that's just you know, it's just lovely, 473 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: Like I don't know what else the person could want. 474 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: Do people when when you do the show, do people 475 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: only the people in the house they pitched the ideas, 476 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: or do people outside pitch you ideas? Oh my goodness. Yeah. 477 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: I mean there was a period where I mean people 478 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: right into our website and there's a place, you know, 479 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: where you can pitch a story, and then there's a 480 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: person or two on staff who go through that looking 481 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: for the stories that might work. And there are faces 482 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: where there's something on the show every week or every 483 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: other week from that list. Like it's not unusual that 484 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: people will pitch us and those stories will end up 485 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: on the show. So yeah, I mean the opening of 486 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: the show that we did at BAM was the story 487 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 1: of this girl woman who accidentally locked herself into a closet. 488 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: She was an opera singer, but she makes her living 489 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: partly reading books on tape. And she was in a 490 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: hotel room and she's like, I got to record this 491 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: book on tape on a deadline. So she goes into 492 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: the closet and puts you know, like pillows all around 493 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: to like cushion the sound. And her computer is sitting 494 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: in the hotel room and she pulls the microphone because 495 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: the computer out of worrying sound, and she pulls the 496 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: microphone into the closet, closes the door. She starts to record, 497 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: and then she I messed that up and she's going 498 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: to go out and started over again. Let's started to 499 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: file and she goes to open the door, and the 500 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: doors locked, like there's something wrong with the mechanics. You 501 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: can't get out of the closet, But the thing is 502 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: still recording. You hear her all the steps she goes 503 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,719 Speaker 1: through and trying to get out of this closet, including 504 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: yelling to people down the hall, some German tourists go by, 505 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: and so that was just somebody she wrote us, you know, 506 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: like that that's the opening of the show. That that 507 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: she told us that story. And at some point in 508 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: the interview I was like, okay, so if you you're 509 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: an opera singer, if you were to stage this as 510 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: an opera, what would it be? And She's like, I 511 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: think it would be a minimalist opera, like you know, 512 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: just this repetitive music. And I was just saying help, help, help, 513 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: over and over, and I was like, you know, I 514 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: have the hook up for that. My cousin is Philip Glass. 515 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: So we had him right. We commissioned that as an 516 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: opera that we performed on stage at the brook On 517 00:23:50,720 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: Academy of Music. Alright, gofred. Ira Glass has a natural 518 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: talent for creating compelling radio. I wanted to follow up 519 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: with him and find out why is his show so successful? 520 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: We have him? You have me, Hello, I have you? 521 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: Send it way? Weren't errantic than I met? You have me? 522 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: Um Hi, this is Ira Glass Glass, They're life. I 523 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do 524 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: it because I can't do it. When you try because 525 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: to do it, it's like it's like a state of mind. 526 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: You know, it's like a state of plan but you 527 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: But you know what's funny is you are someone when 528 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: I made that comment to you about the announcer thing 529 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: and people who are front type of radio broadcaster, but 530 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: you are someone who does not have uh. You know, 531 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: you've got a good delivery, and you're a great radio 532 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: broadcaster and everything and the speed of it and the 533 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: velocity of it is obviously a signature of yours. But 534 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: what kills me is your mastery of what you say, 535 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 1: Like do you go back sometimes you have to record 536 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: it again and again, or do you just zip through 537 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: that thing like you're just shooting down a a louse ride. 538 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: I wish I could. I wish I could do that. 539 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: When we record my parts of the show, I'll do 540 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: more than one take, for sure, but not a lot 541 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: of takes. No too. Can I say it took me 542 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: a long time to learn how to perform on the radio, 543 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 1: Like I was so bad at the beginning. I was awful. 544 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: Like sometimes I play for students, how I sounded not 545 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: in my first year of my second year, but in 546 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: year seven, and I could play for you on your 547 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: podcast if you want to in your show like like 548 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 1: I'm awful, like I had not mastered it. I had 549 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: to consciously set it as a project for myself. I'm 550 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: going to try to perform on the air of the 551 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: way I talk. We would you so you wanted to 552 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: stop doing what I sounded like somebody imitating an MPR 553 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: reporter but failing. So again, this is not your one year, 554 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: two year, three year, four year, five year, six This 555 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: is years since you last week? Yeah, exactly, this is 556 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: last weekend. Right. It's not such a long way from 557 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: the local grocery store to the international debate over whether 558 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: sorghum and meat production are causing corn to decline in 559 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: Latin America. Okay, first of all, that makes no sense, 560 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: but let's keep going. It's a general air of prosperity here, 561 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: partly thanks to Mexican imports of US grains, which helped 562 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: boost our farm economy. I just want to say, if 563 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: you're going to be an announcer, just don't emphasize every 564 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: other word random. But what kills me is you are 565 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 1: doing exactly what like you know cent of all the 566 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: NPR radio host too, is hitting that you know, one 567 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: of the things we realize about the downturn in the 568 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: stock market today is the revel of the bit and 569 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: they're doing exactly what you're doing. It's before I understood 570 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: that to sound okay on the radio, you should just 571 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: talk like a person, talks like a human being, talks 572 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 1: like you're playing a character, and the character as a 573 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: human being. Mexico is now one of our biggest grain customers, 574 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: playing a half billion to a billion dollars worth every year, 575 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 1: including corn defeat its people and sorghum defeat its livestock. 576 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: This helps cut our own trade deficit and benefits everyone 577 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 1: in the US economy. But in Mexico this policy has 578 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: led to fewer tortillas for the poor and on appetizing 579 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: tortillas for everyone else. I would just note also that 580 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,719 Speaker 1: but this makes no sense at all. Like the writing 581 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: is awful. It's not just that the performance is awful, 582 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 1: like literally, like you can't tell what the story is. 583 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: It's a style. I mean that was you, you were 584 00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 1: working it out. I mean, it is funny. You do 585 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: make Kai Wisdal sound like Lenny Bruce. But it's incredible. 586 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I think there must be an acting version 587 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,239 Speaker 1: of this because I think when people become reporters, they 588 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: want to sound like the real deal, you know what 589 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: I mean, And so you want to sound I wanted 590 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: to sound like a reporter, and so this is what 591 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: I thought the equivalent in in in the businesses. I 592 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: was did a TV show years ago, and in the 593 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 1: show there was a woman who was the matriarch of 594 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 1: a town and I had the scene with her where 595 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: I'm kind of shaming her, like well, you know, how 596 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 1: could you do this and turn your back? And we 597 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: did take one and I was like, you know, how 598 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: could you do this? And like the tears are rolling 599 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: down my face. Take two, and finally like take through. 600 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: The director goes, what are you doing? And I'm sorry, goes, 601 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: what do you what? Why are you charging it with 602 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: so much emotional Like you're playing the whole episode in 603 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: the swan scene, You're putting every beat of the entire 604 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: He's like, well, you don't got to calm down. We're 605 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: gonna get there. When you're a young actor, you emote 606 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: and you kind of imbue things with that unnecessarily and 607 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: inappropriately just to do it. You think that's that you 608 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: do too much? I think that's acting. It's in interviewed 609 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: Billy Collins, who was the poet laureate who's writing I 610 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: really love and so idiosyncratic, like he so sounds like himself. 611 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: And I asked him, like, did you always write like this? 612 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: He's like, no, At first I wrote like I thought 613 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: it was a beat poet, you know, like, and I 614 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: tried to write like that. I think it's common that 615 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: people try to do like the official deal that they 616 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: think it is before they realized like, no, I'm gonna 617 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: do a version of me in this is the show 618 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: reflective of who you are. I mean, this show reflects 619 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: my taste, but also I have to say the taste 620 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: of my coworkers, you know, like it's not just mine 621 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: at this point, like it's something that we all share, 622 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: and I happened to be the frontman, which in that 623 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: way it's different than than it was from the beginning, 624 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: Like I am the frontman for this thing that we 625 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: make together. Like somebody who's in a band that's been 626 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: playing for a long time. What tips do you have 627 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: for people that are interviewers? Oh? Wow, um, what tips 628 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: do you have from me? Quite frankly, I think, I 629 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: mean I've I've heard tons of your shows, and I 630 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: really like your show. I think you're a very skilled interviewer. Um. 631 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: And one of the things that you do an interview 632 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: as a party, and you're the host of the party, 633 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: and the interviewee will do what you do, what you 634 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: model is what they do too. Like it's just human nature. 635 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: And so if you tell a lot of funny stories, 636 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,719 Speaker 1: they will tell you funny stories back. And if you 637 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: tell personal stories, they'll tell personal stories back. And I 638 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: feel like there was a phase in your show where 639 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, you had on a series of people 640 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: and it was like her Balbert and uh, I don't 641 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: get a predict to have it was like this, but 642 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: her Baber was definitely like this, where people who went 643 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: through their lives and we're hugely successful and then had 644 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: their hearts broken or had failed and then had to 645 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: call their way back. Where in those interviews you talked 646 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: about yourself in this way that made them talk about 647 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: themselves more. It's not exactly an interviewing trick, but in interviews, 648 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: you know, I will talk about myself with the interviewees 649 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: because I know that if I talk about myself in 650 00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: a way that's real. First of all, they feel safer 651 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: because I'm also talking about myself, and we'll open up 652 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: more and then they talk about themselves, and so it's 653 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: like a fair swath. And the other thing I try 654 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: to do is like with Outbert is a perfect example 655 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: of the first question I asked myself as what are 656 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: they used to? Herb Albert and his partner Jerry Moss 657 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: sold A and M records for like hundreds and hundreds 658 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: of millions of dollars back then. And this is a 659 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: guy that had artistic success as a musician. He was 660 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: very admired as an instrumentalist. He had as many hits 661 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: as like the Beatles, and then and then he has 662 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: his career as a record producer with all these legendary acts. 663 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: And then they walk in the room and so many 664 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: people in the room might go, I don't know who 665 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: that is, but you have to sit there and go, 666 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: this person was big time once they were big, you know, 667 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: and you got to treat them like they're big. Oh, 668 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: that's so interesting at one time. You have to treat 669 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: them with the respect that they once commanded the phrase 670 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: I always uses what are they used to? And I 671 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: give it that is so interesting. I never interview anybody 672 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: that famous like I don't interview anybody who's big. I 673 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: sort of took myself out of that game because it 674 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: made me so nervous. And also I think that that's 675 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: a different kind of interview then I'm especially good at. 676 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: Like I feel like interviewing somebody who's famous, you're constantly 677 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: battling against the fact that they've been interviewed so many 678 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: times and had to tell their stories so many times, 679 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: and so you constantly are having to struggle for an 680 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: angle in on them that will seem alive to them 681 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: and and no knock against them, Like it's hard to 682 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: be interviewed over and over and over about your own 683 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: life and how many stories do any of us have, 684 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: and how many anecdotes do we have? They're even worth 685 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: telling other people, especially a group of strangers. And then 686 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: the thing that I think Terry Gross does really beautifully, 687 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: and the thing that I hear you do, is like 688 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,239 Speaker 1: it's almost like an empathetic act of like, like what 689 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:42,719 Speaker 1: is the world to them? And how am I going 690 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: to angle something in that will get them to say something. 691 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: I remember one of my favorite questions I ever heard 692 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: Terry Gross ask she she she was interviewing Ricky Jay, 693 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: you know that's right, the magician and um and sort 694 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: of scholar of magic but also an incredible card magician 695 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: and m and super smart on Jesus anyway, So so 696 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:03,959 Speaker 1: she's interviewing him, and yeah, she says to him. At 697 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: some point in the interview of this thing which requires 698 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: like so going inside his head, she says to him, Um, sometimes, 699 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: are there ever any magic tricks that you do where 700 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: the thing that we don't see, that you know is happening, 701 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: is actually more interesting than the thing that we see. 702 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: And he totally got excited. He's like, yes, yes, absolutely, 703 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: And she says, well, can you tell me about that? 704 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: And he's like, oh, no, of course you child. Yeah, 705 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: but for even get to that question means so imagining 706 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: her way into his life. And I feel like when 707 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: interviewing goes well, like somebody's just has good taste about 708 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: doing that, you know, Ira a Glass. Having worked in 709 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: the documentary genre for many years, I've never seen a 710 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: filmmaker with the reach and prolific output of director and 711 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,959 Speaker 1: producer Alex Gidney. I've encountered many friends with an interesting, 712 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: dark idea that needs to be made only to realize well, 713 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: Alex Gibney is already making that documentary, called the most 714 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: Important documentary of our Time by Esquire Magazine. The Oscar 715 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: Emmy and Peabody winning Gibney directed the film's Enron, The 716 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: Smartest Guys in the Room, Taxi to the Dark Side, 717 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: and Going Clear, among many many others. His films wrestled 718 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: with tales of power and corruption, cults and corporate greed, 719 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 1: in the public interest and in search of the truth. 720 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: He's not afraid to ask the hard questions and help 721 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: shed light on the most complex topics of our time 722 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: in a way that truly no one else can. Here's 723 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: Alex conversation with Alex Gibney from two thousand twenty one. 724 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: Gibney's most recent film, The Crime of the Century, which 725 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: he wrote, directed, produced, and narrated for HBO, tells the 726 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 1: origin story at the heart of the opioid crisis poisoning 727 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: our nation. Big Farmas celebrated its marketing muscle, using parties 728 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: to lure doctors to write scripts. This was a new 729 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: drug cartel. They were drug dealers wearing suits and lab coats. Basically, 730 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: here's some money, write scripts. Yes, I'm looking at this 731 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: and I'm gone. Clearly, we're breaking the Law Up. Alex 732 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: Gibney has made more than thirty films in the last 733 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: twenty years. In two thousand and eight, he won the 734 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature for Taxi to the 735 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: Dark Side, his film on the CIA's use of torture. 736 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: Whether he's taking on scientology or Russian interference in our elections, 737 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,240 Speaker 1: or iconic figures like Steve Jobs, Lance Armstrong and Frank Sinatra, 738 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 1: Gibney never flinches and his stories stand up. In fact, 739 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,839 Speaker 1: he can't think of a time when he wanted to 740 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 1: reissue one of his docks to make a correction. I 741 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: can't think of a time when it did happen. And 742 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: I think about that a lot, because I try to 743 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: find a moment in time where it feels like we're 744 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,800 Speaker 1: absolutely right. And sometimes, you know, I'm afraid that things 745 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: may come out that would cause me to want to 746 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: redo it. But I I sort of feel like the 747 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: films represent a certain wisdom at a moment in time, 748 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: and it's it's best to leave them. I am kind 749 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: of following up in a film I did and doing 750 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: another film to kind of dig a little bit deeper. 751 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 1: The film I did, A Taxi to the dark Side. 752 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 1: I'm doing a kind of follow up to it, but 753 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,919 Speaker 1: I've never been motivated to really go back in it's 754 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: it seems like such a painful process. But I usually 755 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: do think about, like, if I'm going to end this 756 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: film here, why are we ending it here? And will 757 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 1: it stand the test of time? When the film is over? 758 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: Do you ever privately follow up about certain aspects of it? 759 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 1: Does you're caring? Does your curiosity? Does your concern end 760 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: when the film is distributed? No, the ghosts of all 761 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 1: my films tend to follow me, and I often keep 762 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: in touch with sources and interview subjects, and in odd ways, 763 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: they keep coming back two films I make henceforth, so 764 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 1: they kind of reverberate. It's it's a little bit like 765 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: that moment in in Ghostbusters where they say don't cross 766 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: the streams. Well, my streams are constantly getting crossed. It 767 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: seems like characters from one film are intruding into another. 768 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: They all stay with me, which becomes a little bit vexing. 769 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,760 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's hard to keep them straight. In your career, 770 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: your fabulous career, You've made thirty films or so in 771 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: the last twenty years. One an Oscar but of course 772 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: documentary films have become content for streamers and major major broadcasters. 773 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: What are your observations about that change during your career, Alma, 774 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,760 Speaker 1: Was it like in the beginning, Well, in the beginning 775 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: it was terrible. My wife used to tell me, I 776 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: want you to go out and get a job, and 777 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: whatever you do, don't mention that you're interested in documentaries, 778 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: because they'll kick you right out the door. So I 779 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: had to be very cautious. And then there was that 780 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: terrible era of cable television where every channel had to 781 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: be branded, which meant if you were clicking through chan nals, 782 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: as soon as you got to a channel, it had 783 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: to look like it was the History Channel or whatever, 784 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,399 Speaker 1: and which meant that as a creator, you were just 785 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: cranking out sausages. It was the worst possible thing. But 786 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: then I discovered, particularly for political documentaries, there was a 787 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: moment where theatrical films could say things that we're pretty 788 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: potent so long as you made them entertaining. And that 789 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: was a huge revelation which changed everything. And because suddenly 790 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: you weren't operating in a commercial environment where it was 791 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: the least common denominator and basically we were trying to 792 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: sell audiences to advertisers. People were buying the content, that 793 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: is to say, they go to a movie because they 794 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: wanted to see the movie, not because they wanted to 795 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: buy soap. So that was great, and I think that's 796 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 1: what helped to explode the moment that we're in now. 797 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 1: My only concern about streaming environment is the extent to 798 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 1: which some of the streamers begin to start relying too 799 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: much on their algorithms so that they come to you 800 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: and say, well, our algorithms says that a you know, 801 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: minute thirty two, you should really be changing the narrative 802 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: to this so that we'll keep our viewers. We're hearing 803 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 1: a little bit of that, and that to be a nightmarish. Now, 804 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: when you talk about your company and you talk about 805 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: what you're producing and not producing, and I want you 806 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 1: to explain, what's the difference between an executive producer and 807 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: a producer. There's a couple of different types of producers. 808 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,879 Speaker 1: How do you function as a producer in your company's work. 809 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: On the projects where I'm named as a producer or 810 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: an executive producer, I generally have a creative role and 811 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: sometimes it has to do with raising the money but 812 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: often it has to do with having some say or 813 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 1: guidance in terms of the overall creative direction. Though you know, 814 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,839 Speaker 1: we try very hard to empower our directors to do 815 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 1: films the way they want to do them. But sometimes 816 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 1: on a series in particular, where you're coalescing around something 817 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,439 Speaker 1: like I did a series for Netflix for a couple 818 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: of years called Dirty Money, which I was very proud of. 819 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 1: It's all about corporate malfeasance, and you know, we purposefully 820 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: engaged directors to do things their own way. That said. 821 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 1: You know, it came out of my experience on en Ron, 822 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:10,239 Speaker 1: which was one where you invest in the wild criminality 823 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: of the purpose and it's a kind of colorful, kind 824 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: of heist like vibe that you engage in. So as 825 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 1: executive producer, I'm trying to encourage the directors to lean 826 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 1: into that kind of thing without being overbearing about it. 827 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,360 Speaker 1: So sometimes I'm the beard and sometimes, uh, sometimes I 828 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 1: come come out a little stronger than that. You now 829 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: have what like a hundred or a hundred and twenty 830 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: people working at Jigsaw, So the company itself, that is 831 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 1: to say, permanent employees, as fairly small. It's like fourteen 832 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,319 Speaker 1: or fifteen people, but at times we can have as 833 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 1: many as two hundred people working in the in the 834 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: space on various projects. So that's where things get pretty daunting. 835 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: Are you ever sitting in your office screaming into a 836 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: cushion or you're gonna cry and you're telling your staff 837 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: please don't bring me any more projects to do, because 838 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: there's the fear you're gonna become the Jeff Coon's of 839 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,319 Speaker 1: documentary filmmaking, where like you're running from room to room 840 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 1: and going, yes, no, change this brightenness. Yeah. Yeah, well 841 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,440 Speaker 1: I really try. I mean, that would be the stereotype. 842 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 1: And I do scream into my pillow, but usually not 843 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 1: because of that. I mean, if if I can get 844 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: projects made, great, But I purposely tell you know, the 845 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: other executives at the company, there are many projects here 846 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 1: I don't want to be involved in, not because they're 847 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 1: bad projects, but because it's important that they run themselves, 848 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: because otherwise I get spread too thin, and who needs that. 849 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 1: Then it becomes a kind of proxy system. The whole 850 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: idea is to create a company that will run of 851 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: itself and last long after I've left the field. Now 852 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: you have a great volume of work where you are 853 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 1: developing material, making films and series and so forth limited 854 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 1: series with some great, great writers. So great, I mean, 855 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: just keep you alone and Larry Right, who I worship 856 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 1: because you worked with Larry before and Going Clear, Going 857 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,320 Speaker 1: Clear in My Trip to al Qaeda, and and also 858 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,320 Speaker 1: obviously Looming Tower. So what was your first connection with Right? Somehow? 859 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,760 Speaker 1: We were put together on My Trip to Al Qaida, 860 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 1: which was a play that he had done about a 861 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 1: one man play that he started about the writing of 862 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 1: the Looming Tower. And we got together on that and 863 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 1: I did a doc about it. It's part half of 864 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,360 Speaker 1: it or a lot of it is the play itself, 865 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 1: and then we cut in and out of the play 866 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 1: to do various documentary thing and we got on really well, 867 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: and so then we were determined to do other stuff together. 868 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 1: You know, I have a kind of a shorthand I 869 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 1: think with writers because my dad was a journalist, and 870 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: that's the business I was supposed to go into. It 871 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: was around me all my life. So in my films, 872 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 1: while I make them consciously as films, they also they 873 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,919 Speaker 1: have what I would call journalistic baggage. That is to say, 874 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:51,399 Speaker 1: I'm really invested in in a journalistic aspect of them 875 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,760 Speaker 1: that tries to get the facts right. But with somebody 876 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,400 Speaker 1: like Larry Right, it's a similar process in terms of 877 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: the storytelling aspect of it, you know, at greater length 878 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:02,399 Speaker 1: and the New Yorker pieces or in his books which 879 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 1: often come out of his New Yorker pieces. There is 880 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 1: at once a kind of fact finding discipline and also 881 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: a storytelling discipline where you're trying to engage an audience 882 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,279 Speaker 1: to come along this journey with you, and part of 883 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 1: that is investing in the propulsion of the narrative, which 884 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 1: is I mean, that's storytelling, right. So Larry and I 885 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,800 Speaker 1: got on really well because he's always talking about stuff 886 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,319 Speaker 1: like that and and devices that he uses in his 887 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: writing and and so ongoing clear that was maybe the 888 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 1: biggest collaboration we had in terms of impact. The Looming 889 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: Tower was also you know, had pretty broad reach. When 890 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 1: you do a Crime of the Century, when you do 891 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 1: with something with HBO, the budgets pretty high, correct it is, 892 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 1: relatively speaking. Relatively speaking, though, and on this one it 893 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: it got a lot higher than the original budget because 894 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 1: our original deal with HBO said we were going to 895 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: do a two hour film, and then when we showed 896 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 1: them the material. They said, well, this is clearly, you know, 897 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,279 Speaker 1: going over the bounds of the two hours. We've got 898 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,800 Speaker 1: much more material than that, and they let us expand 899 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 1: it to a four hour And in the case of 900 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:06,839 Speaker 1: Crime of the Century, I mean to be honest with you, 901 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,319 Speaker 1: we actually started out working with the Washington Post. There 902 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 1: were some journalists there, Scott Higham and Lenny Bernstein and 903 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 1: others who had first made me kind of aware of 904 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,799 Speaker 1: the breadth of this story. And along the way, you know, 905 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:26,760 Speaker 1: I decided they had were focusing mostly post Sackler, and 906 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: I decided I really needed and wanted to tell the 907 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: sacular part of the story to get the breadth of it. 908 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:33,759 Speaker 1: And that's what led me to Patrick, And in fact 909 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,759 Speaker 1: Patrick and I ended up teaming up on not only 910 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 1: this but also a scripted version of the Sackler story 911 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,839 Speaker 1: called pain Killer, which is going to start shooting later 912 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,439 Speaker 1: this fall. When you're working on the Sacler story as 913 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,440 Speaker 1: well as perhaps other stories, is there ever a fear 914 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,760 Speaker 1: of litigation? I mean talk about a deep pockets opponent 915 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:57,920 Speaker 1: ofview wound up getting litigated. Were you were afraid that 916 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 1: they would sue you? Yes, And that's why the reporting 917 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,279 Speaker 1: has to be really good, and I give a lot 918 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: of credit to HBO for being really rigorous about that. 919 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 1: But once you have the facts right, being very brave. 920 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 1: I mean I learned that on Going Clear. You know, 921 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,800 Speaker 1: there were a lot of lawyers attached to that film, 922 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:18,799 Speaker 1: but we were very good about getting our facts right. 923 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,200 Speaker 1: And it's not only the stuff that's in but the 924 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 1: reporting that surrounds it. That's what gives you the foundation 925 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:27,960 Speaker 1: to put some of the stuff you put in the film. 926 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,040 Speaker 1: And so with Patrick, because we were working in different media, 927 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 1: we were able to share things that we might not 928 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,920 Speaker 1: otherwise have shared. If he was, say another filmmaker, and 929 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,200 Speaker 1: he would give me some documents, I would give him 930 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,040 Speaker 1: some documents. And also we could geek out with each other. 931 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,359 Speaker 1: I mean, when you're deep into a project like this, 932 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,839 Speaker 1: very few people, particularly significant others, want to hear from 933 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,640 Speaker 1: you about the arcana of the opioid crisis. You know, 934 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:54,799 Speaker 1: it's like, okay, Han, that's enough. You know, we got 935 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,360 Speaker 1: your what's wrong? And like, look at the molecular structure 936 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,880 Speaker 1: of this active ingredient. Look at this molecule. Have you 937 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,400 Speaker 1: ever seen a molecule? Now, But when you're doing these projects, 938 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,760 Speaker 1: you talked about all the lawyers attached to going clear. 939 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,880 Speaker 1: We were talking before about how the early days for 940 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,880 Speaker 1: you because you work so much in unearthing truth and facts, 941 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,279 Speaker 1: and there's a journalistic stripe to what you do that 942 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 1: you've got a staff of people doing research and maybe 943 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,719 Speaker 1: you have a part time lawyer. I'm kind of joking here, 944 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,279 Speaker 1: and now your company, the difference is you've got a 945 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 1: lot more people on the payroll doing research. You have 946 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 1: ten lawyers on the payroll, you know, I mean, like, 947 00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,600 Speaker 1: do you need more of everything to get the facts clear? 948 00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,920 Speaker 1: You know, we don't operate the company that way. And 949 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 1: and actually, while we started to veer in that direction, 950 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 1: I think we're going back to baseline to be a 951 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,960 Speaker 1: little bit more entrepreneurial. What we do is try to 952 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:45,880 Speaker 1: set it up more as units, you know, try to 953 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,239 Speaker 1: function not as a machine or a factory, but more 954 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,359 Speaker 1: like a studio where each film or series has its 955 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 1: own people and and it's a small but dedicated group, 956 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,160 Speaker 1: and attached to them are are sometimes lawyers we've freakingly 957 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 1: work with, and sometimes journalists we frequently work with, but 958 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,640 Speaker 1: they're attached to that particular project, so each one is 959 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,359 Speaker 1: bespoke it's has its own d n A, and that 960 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,759 Speaker 1: that tends to work out better because sometimes these things 961 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,759 Speaker 1: take a long time, like Crime of the Century took 962 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,160 Speaker 1: close to three years to do. With a small group 963 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,600 Speaker 1: that really gets intensively into the subject, that's what allows 964 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,600 Speaker 1: it to happen, rather than a kind of big machine 965 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 1: which attempts to crank these things out. They can't be 966 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,200 Speaker 1: cranked out because the rhythm of them sometimes depends on 967 00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,239 Speaker 1: when you get documents or when you get people to 968 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,120 Speaker 1: talk at the pace of their own. But I'm even 969 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,600 Speaker 1: talking about the creative DNA or biology of the project 970 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,400 Speaker 1: to project. I'm just talking about resources in terms of 971 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 1: when you're first starting out, you might not have everything 972 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,920 Speaker 1: you need, and as you become this phenomenally successful filmmaker, 973 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: one thing it affords you to do is to have 974 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,120 Speaker 1: more people come on and do more research and deepen 975 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:58,040 Speaker 1: your research, and have more legal help to protect you. 976 00:47:58,040 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 1: You know, I was in Sundance. I saw you there. 977 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,359 Speaker 1: I went to the screening and uh, I'm in that 978 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,920 Speaker 1: rarefied position where I'm friends with Tom. I mean, he's 979 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,520 Speaker 1: he's a friend in terms of my career. You know, 980 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:09,160 Speaker 1: we don't see each other for long periods of time 981 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,279 Speaker 1: where we pick up where we left off. He had 982 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,520 Speaker 1: me come into a couple of smaller parts and two 983 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,799 Speaker 1: am I movies and so forth. And I've often speculated, 984 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: and I even wrote in my memoir, so I thought, 985 00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,000 Speaker 1: what was it? What did he need this involvement in 986 00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,080 Speaker 1: this organization and this uh in this faith or whatever 987 00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:27,319 Speaker 1: you want to call it. What did he need it for? 988 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: I wasn't quite sure what its purpose was. You know, 989 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,400 Speaker 1: he has everything, you know, wealth and fame and legacy 990 00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,880 Speaker 1: and the respect of the community. He has everything you 991 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,759 Speaker 1: could possibly imagine in a career as as as a 992 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,880 Speaker 1: movie star. So what did this add to his life? 993 00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,600 Speaker 1: And I I speculated about that in my book. I 994 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,080 Speaker 1: came up with an answer. But when you were doing 995 00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:52,040 Speaker 1: Going Clear, the scientology community, which is diverse, I mean 996 00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,800 Speaker 1: the different people is not all just Tom incorporated maybe, 997 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:56,960 Speaker 1: but all those people have been able to in some 998 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:02,759 Speaker 1: way chew away any real close examination. And when I 999 00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:07,320 Speaker 1: watched your movie, I was mildly taken aback by how 1000 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,600 Speaker 1: deep you got. Your film was among the first people 1001 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:14,000 Speaker 1: from a major filmmaker to say that the the institution 1002 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,840 Speaker 1: is guilty of certain abuses. I mean they abuse people. 1003 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,279 Speaker 1: Their attitude to me was always like, hey man, we're 1004 00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,839 Speaker 1: not hurting anybody. You know, we manipulate people no more 1005 00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,880 Speaker 1: or no less than U S military recruitment companies, do 1006 00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:26,400 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, we have a certain kind of 1007 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:28,759 Speaker 1: thing we do to get people to want to join 1008 00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:30,880 Speaker 1: and sign up with us, But no one's being abused 1009 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,040 Speaker 1: or hurt. And you and what was the genesis of 1010 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,319 Speaker 1: that movie? Why did you decide you wanted to go 1011 00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,200 Speaker 1: further and look into that even further. You know what's 1012 00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:41,360 Speaker 1: interesting about that is that I had been offered to 1013 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,840 Speaker 1: do that movie any number of times, and I had 1014 00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,440 Speaker 1: always turned it down because I always felt it was 1015 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,800 Speaker 1: too fringed. There weren't that many scientologists in the world 1016 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,359 Speaker 1: as opposed to say, the Roman Catholic Church. I did. 1017 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:56,040 Speaker 1: I did a film about the church, and coincidentally or not, 1018 00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:59,640 Speaker 1: two weeks after it premiered, the Pope resigned. So, um, 1019 00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:04,560 Speaker 1: you know, I was familiar with deep seated religious organizations 1020 00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,640 Speaker 1: and also you know the pushback you can get. But 1021 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,040 Speaker 1: in the case of Going Clear, it was Larry who 1022 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,040 Speaker 1: convinced me. Larry Wright who convinced me to take it on. 1023 00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:16,680 Speaker 1: There's a phrase in his you know, subhead of his 1024 00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:21,640 Speaker 1: book is the Prison of Belief, And that idea was 1025 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,120 Speaker 1: really interesting to me because then it was a deep 1026 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:30,880 Speaker 1: dive into scientology and indeed the abuses of scientology. I 1027 00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,480 Speaker 1: mean that that's the reason to be concerned, is that 1028 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:37,200 Speaker 1: the prison of belief leads to real human rights abuses. 1029 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:39,880 Speaker 1: But the other reason I was interested in it is 1030 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:46,239 Speaker 1: because people like to demonize scientologists as crazies, and the 1031 00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:50,960 Speaker 1: prison of Belief allowed me to put scientologists in a 1032 00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:55,680 Speaker 1: mainstream tradition of how people invest or get lost in 1033 00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,160 Speaker 1: a prison of belief, whether it be religious belief or 1034 00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,360 Speaker 1: political belief, and can get out even though the bars 1035 00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,480 Speaker 1: of the cell are open. So that's what really motivated 1036 00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:06,440 Speaker 1: me to get there. And then as we dug in, 1037 00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,680 Speaker 1: we took testimony and checked facts and found out stuff 1038 00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,279 Speaker 1: that other people hadn't found out before. And and I 1039 00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:16,800 Speaker 1: actually had a pretty big impact on the scientology community itself. 1040 00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:18,279 Speaker 1: There are a lot of people who either left the 1041 00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:23,000 Speaker 1: church or who as ex members of Scientology, suddenly felt 1042 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,080 Speaker 1: empowered to speak up in a way that they hadn't 1043 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,440 Speaker 1: been able to do so before because because Scientology using 1044 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,840 Speaker 1: its threat of litigation, because they had launched the maybe 1045 00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:36,279 Speaker 1: the most expensive lawsuit ever against the media company when 1046 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:40,040 Speaker 1: they went after Time Warner. You know, people were afraid, 1047 00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:46,120 Speaker 1: and HBO was incredibly impressive in terms of its ability 1048 00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,640 Speaker 1: to back us up once we convinced them that we 1049 00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:52,919 Speaker 1: had the goods. What was the first time you picked 1050 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,360 Speaker 1: up a camera as a child? Were interested in filmmaking 1051 00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,160 Speaker 1: as a child. We're a huge filmgoer. I was into 1052 00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,840 Speaker 1: it as a kid, and I was always into cinema. 1053 00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,680 Speaker 1: But the thing that I think really changed me or 1054 00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,280 Speaker 1: turned me around, were these great film societies at Yale, 1055 00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,440 Speaker 1: and there was there was always an interesting film on 1056 00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:14,640 Speaker 1: every night. You know, this is pre video, so you 1057 00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:16,680 Speaker 1: you go to these film societies and sit and watch 1058 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:22,320 Speaker 1: and and at the time, documentaries and fiction films were distinctions, 1059 00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,239 Speaker 1: weren't made. It wasn't like one was up and one 1060 00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,480 Speaker 1: was down. They were all interesting. And I can remember 1061 00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,520 Speaker 1: you know too in particular that really floored me. One 1062 00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,360 Speaker 1: was Gimme Shelter by the Mazel's Brothers, you know about 1063 00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,520 Speaker 1: the Rolling Stones, and the other was Exterminating Angel by 1064 00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,760 Speaker 1: Louis Bunuel, and I thought, wow, you know, the possibility 1065 00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:43,279 Speaker 1: for expression in this medium is so enormous. So that's 1066 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,719 Speaker 1: when I started to veer away from what my dad 1067 00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:48,319 Speaker 1: had in mind for me, which was to be a 1068 00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:52,560 Speaker 1: print journalist. Did you seriously I did. I did. But 1069 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,279 Speaker 1: he lived in Japan for a lot of his life, 1070 00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:57,719 Speaker 1: and I was studying Japanese literature at the time, which 1071 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:02,520 Speaker 1: meant I was like head buried in these endless character dictionaries. 1072 00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:05,560 Speaker 1: I start to veer away and and found my own direction. 1073 00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,239 Speaker 1: But he really wanted me after college to go and 1074 00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,840 Speaker 1: take the interviews at Time Life Newsweek, you know, and 1075 00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:13,719 Speaker 1: and and go into the family business, which is what 1076 00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:19,200 Speaker 1: he had done. Where did you study of Yale Japanese literature? Yeah, 1077 00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:24,319 Speaker 1: and I'm impressed because of all the Japanese documentaries you've made, 1078 00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,360 Speaker 1: it's incredible. Well, I did study under Donald Ritchie, the 1079 00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:30,000 Speaker 1: great Japanese film critic who knew so much about Core Sawa. 1080 00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,960 Speaker 1: And I'll give you one. I'll give you. I can 1081 00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:38,840 Speaker 1: do one film quote in Japanese, which is Chigo Mateo's it. 1082 00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:42,040 Speaker 1: And that's uh, that's the end of your Jimbo. He says, 1083 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,680 Speaker 1: I'll wait for you at the gates of hell. Oh 1084 00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,400 Speaker 1: my god, my god. Now when you know when you 1085 00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:49,880 Speaker 1: make it. So you're studying Japanese literature Yale, You're not, 1086 00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,359 Speaker 1: You're making films at the same time I did, uh, 1087 00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:55,760 Speaker 1: you know, I was studying film with a famous documentary 1088 00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,880 Speaker 1: named Murray Learner. He did a lot of those docs 1089 00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,360 Speaker 1: about the New or jazz and folk festivals and that 1090 00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,600 Speaker 1: in store from now teaches at Columbia, and so she 1091 00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:07,680 Speaker 1: was she was one of my advisors. I mean she 1092 00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:11,000 Speaker 1: was very young then, as as we all were. So 1093 00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:14,520 Speaker 1: I was studying film, and ultimately, towards the end of 1094 00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:18,319 Speaker 1: my sojourn there, I was starting to to to move 1095 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,320 Speaker 1: into that territory. And then I went to u c 1096 00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:22,960 Speaker 1: l A Film School. So so you go to graduate 1097 00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:24,560 Speaker 1: school and and how many years you were you in 1098 00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,440 Speaker 1: l A. Well, I ended up staying in l A 1099 00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:31,080 Speaker 1: for a good many years, like twelve thirteen years. But 1100 00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:33,080 Speaker 1: and I never actually finished U c l A. That 1101 00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,600 Speaker 1: they're happy to claim you cling me to their bosom now, 1102 00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:40,040 Speaker 1: But I loved it there. I just I got a 1103 00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:43,920 Speaker 1: job with the Samuel Goldwyn Company at the time, and 1104 00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:48,200 Speaker 1: I started doing things like cutting exploitation trailers. What exploitation 1105 00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:52,239 Speaker 1: trailers did you cut? Oh? There was one called my 1106 00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:57,360 Speaker 1: favorite was one called shock Waves. It was a film 1107 00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:01,120 Speaker 1: about mutant Nazis who come up from the ocean floor. 1108 00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:05,240 Speaker 1: That's where they went to a secret cat underwater cavern. 1109 00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:09,880 Speaker 1: They manufactured a group of mutant Nazis that couldn't be killed, 1110 00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,920 Speaker 1: and their ships sank somewhere in the Caribbean, and then 1111 00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,839 Speaker 1: one day a fishing boat happened to dislodge it, and 1112 00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,360 Speaker 1: up they came out out from the water that I 1113 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:22,080 Speaker 1: thought they were in Buenos Aires. Peter Cushing. Peter Cushing 1114 00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,560 Speaker 1: was in it. Peter Cushing was in it. Brook Adams 1115 00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,600 Speaker 1: was in it. Oh God, that was a documentary about that. Well. 1116 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,319 Speaker 1: The other trailer I did was for it was for 1117 00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:34,080 Speaker 1: a TV trailer I think for the First Assault on 1118 00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:37,000 Speaker 1: Precinct thirteen. And there was one the Nicholas Meyer Rock 1119 00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:40,719 Speaker 1: called Invasion of the b Girls. These were women who 1120 00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:43,480 Speaker 1: were half human, half b and when they'd have sex 1121 00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:47,000 Speaker 1: with you, they'd sting you to death. I know that woman, 1122 00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:49,080 Speaker 1: I know her. Yeah, I went out with her from 1123 00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:52,040 Speaker 1: times I got I got out on stage, but she 1124 00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:55,120 Speaker 1: tried and tried her best. Now I had a small 1125 00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,520 Speaker 1: part in Looming Tower. I was very grateful to come 1126 00:55:57,520 --> 00:55:59,359 Speaker 1: and work with you. Guys, and I understand you're doing 1127 00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,919 Speaker 1: more of that. You're gonna be doing more narrative work. Yes, 1128 00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:04,960 Speaker 1: with luck, that's gonna I'm doing a feature this coming year, 1129 00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:07,960 Speaker 1: and this is one that's a real passion project. It's 1130 00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,480 Speaker 1: a story I've been thinking about for a long time 1131 00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:12,600 Speaker 1: and it took a long time to get the script right. 1132 00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,360 Speaker 1: But I'm really looking forward to doing it. And a 1133 00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,600 Speaker 1: guy named Matt Cook he wrote a Patriots Day which 1134 00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:21,319 Speaker 1: was directed by Peteburgh, but interesting to me, he was 1135 00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,960 Speaker 1: a in the infantry in Iraq and this is ah, 1136 00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,200 Speaker 1: this is very much of a war story. It's actually 1137 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:29,560 Speaker 1: Vietnam War, and it's what it's really about is how 1138 00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,520 Speaker 1: hard it is to be a hero. And with Looming Tower, 1139 00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,640 Speaker 1: what was your input into that? I mean, you know, 1140 00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:41,040 Speaker 1: Larry Danny Futterman and I were, um, you know, co 1141 00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:43,400 Speaker 1: conspirators early on in terms of coming up with the 1142 00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,360 Speaker 1: kind of the overall concept because Looming Tower is a 1143 00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:49,359 Speaker 1: vast book, and so how to contain it and how 1144 00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:51,560 Speaker 1: to focus it And we decided to focus it on 1145 00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:54,520 Speaker 1: this battle between the FBI and the CIA in the 1146 00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,080 Speaker 1: run up to nine eleven, and to focus on to 1147 00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:01,719 Speaker 1: Harraheem's character. Uh, you know, Ali Soufan is the guy 1148 00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:04,640 Speaker 1: in which he was based in and Jeff Daniels character 1149 00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,680 Speaker 1: John O'Neill, and obviously you know I mean you played 1150 00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:11,040 Speaker 1: George Tennant, who is a critical character in this battle 1151 00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,040 Speaker 1: between the FBI and the CIA. In terms of the 1152 00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:18,080 Speaker 1: overall conceit, I had a lot of input. I think 1153 00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:20,560 Speaker 1: that it's fair to say that Danny and I had 1154 00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:24,280 Speaker 1: some creative differences on it, and I want some and 1155 00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:29,400 Speaker 1: lost others. But that's the way things go. We'll have 1156 00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:33,480 Speaker 1: more of Alex conversation with director Alex Gibney after the break. 1157 00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:44,080 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 1158 00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:49,400 Speaker 1: Alex Gibney is known for his films that challenged entrenched power, 1159 00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:54,160 Speaker 1: but he also has a deep catalog of work featuring musicians, 1160 00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:58,760 Speaker 1: from an early blues series with Martin Scorsese to Jimmy Hendricks, 1161 00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:03,320 Speaker 1: James Brown, The Ths, The Rolling Stones and Frank Sinatra. 1162 00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:08,040 Speaker 1: When Gibney is working with a subject as lionized as Sinatra, 1163 00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:11,480 Speaker 1: I wondered, is there an expectation he'll put a shine 1164 00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:15,880 Speaker 1: on their legacy? Trust me? As the Sinatra family will 1165 00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,640 Speaker 1: tell you about some of the conversations we had. They 1166 00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:22,680 Speaker 1: weren't always pretty. They were of the opinion that I 1167 00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,800 Speaker 1: didn't shine the statue enough, though I think I think 1168 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,720 Speaker 1: Tina over time came to to become a much bigger 1169 00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,000 Speaker 1: believer in in what we had done, even though she 1170 00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:33,920 Speaker 1: was the skeptic going in. So you know, I had 1171 00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:38,520 Speaker 1: editorial control, so I could do what I wanted. I 1172 00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:40,720 Speaker 1: was focused in this film, though a little bit more 1173 00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:44,040 Speaker 1: on Sinatra the musician and as kind of gats b 1174 00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:48,600 Speaker 1: s character who kind of represented both the American dream 1175 00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,200 Speaker 1: in the American nightmare, and that to me was was 1176 00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:53,200 Speaker 1: interesting because because I have to be honest, I mean, 1177 00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:55,680 Speaker 1: Frank Marshall was the one who who encouraged me to 1178 00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:58,200 Speaker 1: take this project on, and I was not a big 1179 00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:00,479 Speaker 1: Sinatra fan. I knew him as kind of the guy 1180 00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:05,160 Speaker 1: who you know, hung around with Spiro Agnew and I 1181 00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:08,160 Speaker 1: wasn't that interested. But I became, you know, in doing 1182 00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:09,959 Speaker 1: the film, which is one of the great things about 1183 00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:13,320 Speaker 1: doing docs. You become curious and you learn about a subject. 1184 00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:16,560 Speaker 1: I became a huge admirer of his in terms of 1185 00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:20,360 Speaker 1: his ability to tell stories in three minutes through his voice, 1186 00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:25,440 Speaker 1: but also the tension, the rough and tumble tension between 1187 00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:28,240 Speaker 1: where he came from and and where he was ending up. 1188 00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:31,080 Speaker 1: And you know, we could have we've gone deeper into 1189 00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:34,560 Speaker 1: the obvious up probably, and but I think that there 1190 00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:36,960 Speaker 1: was enough there to give you a sense of what 1191 00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:40,920 Speaker 1: was going on, and that it wasn't like we skipped it. 1192 00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:43,800 Speaker 1: And one of the things that we got that was 1193 00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,000 Speaker 1: so valuable. I mean, not only did we get this 1194 00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:50,680 Speaker 1: sixteen millimeter film of his first retirement concert in which 1195 00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:52,720 Speaker 1: we kind of used as a structure to tell the 1196 00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:55,000 Speaker 1: story of his life, but the more important thing we 1197 00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:57,960 Speaker 1: got were a couple of audio taped interviews that were 1198 00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,240 Speaker 1: done at great length because of the problem with most 1199 01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:04,479 Speaker 1: TV interviews, particularly back in the day, they were either 1200 01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:09,439 Speaker 1: rolling these huge video cameras where you're having to sit 1201 01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:13,520 Speaker 1: under these massive lights and everyone's sweating, or their film 1202 01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:16,320 Speaker 1: cameras and you're changing the magazine, you know, every twelve minutes. 1203 01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:20,280 Speaker 1: With audio, you could really have a conversation, which is what, 1204 01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:23,000 Speaker 1: of course I try to do when I'm doing my interviews, 1205 01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:27,120 Speaker 1: to just have a conversation rather than ask questions. And 1206 01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:30,200 Speaker 1: it was those interviews with Sinatra, the audiotaped interviews, which 1207 01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:32,240 Speaker 1: I think he was doing to explore whether or not 1208 01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,640 Speaker 1: he might want to do, you know, an autobiography. Those 1209 01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:38,320 Speaker 1: are the gold for us because they were very candid, 1210 01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:40,360 Speaker 1: as well as a few sort of off the cuff 1211 01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:42,920 Speaker 1: kind of Q and A sessions he did, including one 1212 01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:46,640 Speaker 1: he did at Yale, which was wildly fun, you know, 1213 01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:49,240 Speaker 1: because when you got him in a moment where he 1214 01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:52,880 Speaker 1: didn't feel he wasn't kind of prethinking his answers, it 1215 01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:58,760 Speaker 1: was gold. You could feel his pain, his ambitions, his passions. 1216 01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:01,480 Speaker 1: It was It was great and and he's his sort 1217 01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:06,160 Speaker 1: of profane reactions to everything around him. Now, for you, 1218 01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:08,080 Speaker 1: do you tend to be with the same group of 1219 01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:09,720 Speaker 1: people shooting, you have a you have a crew that 1220 01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:12,000 Speaker 1: you prefer, or have you mixed it up with the 1221 01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:16,160 Speaker 1: people you've used for your cinematic crew? Well I mixed 1222 01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:18,880 Speaker 1: it up a lot. But there's one woman, Marie's Alberti, 1223 01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,400 Speaker 1: who shot She shot the wrestler, she shot Creed, but 1224 01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:24,800 Speaker 1: she also shot Enron Taxi to the dark Side and 1225 01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:27,520 Speaker 1: others and armstrong laws. She was a key collaborator for 1226 01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:29,760 Speaker 1: me early on because she took a weakness of mine, 1227 01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:34,440 Speaker 1: which was cinematography and visualizing the frame. I came up 1228 01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:38,280 Speaker 1: as an editor and really expanded my horizons in that area. 1229 01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:40,760 Speaker 1: She's an extraordinary talent because you bridged the worlds of 1230 01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:44,040 Speaker 1: documentary and and fiction. So Marie's the key collaborator for 1231 01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:46,240 Speaker 1: me for a long period. She was also did a 1232 01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:49,720 Speaker 1: bunch of Going Clear as well. But then the editors 1233 01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:52,439 Speaker 1: have been I've been just blessed. I mean, and those 1234 01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:54,320 Speaker 1: people I tend to go back to over and over 1235 01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:58,720 Speaker 1: and over again, Alison Elwood and he Grieve, Sloan Clevin, 1236 01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,680 Speaker 1: Mikey Palmer. Now people view you, I mean, you're heading off, 1237 01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:06,040 Speaker 1: it seems like into a more dedicated period of making 1238 01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:09,440 Speaker 1: narrative films. People view you as a great truth seeker. 1239 01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:11,439 Speaker 1: You know, you want to go out and I don't 1240 01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:13,200 Speaker 1: want to say catch the bad guy. I don't want 1241 01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:17,200 Speaker 1: to make it like as a prosecutorial. But exposing abuses 1242 01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:21,280 Speaker 1: of power seems to be a really in my mind, 1243 01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:24,840 Speaker 1: that obviously potent theme in the work you do. Does 1244 01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:29,120 Speaker 1: it have a fade or are you like you describing 1245 01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:32,280 Speaker 1: the chemical molecist You're right as you see are you 1246 01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:34,600 Speaker 1: still walking over the beach of vacation and you're looking 1247 01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:36,640 Speaker 1: at your phone going God damn it, I can't believe 1248 01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:40,000 Speaker 1: these people. Did you know is outrage and indignation follow 1249 01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:44,520 Speaker 1: you everywhere you go? I'm afraid so, and I wish 1250 01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:47,800 Speaker 1: it wouldn't. And you outline my vacation. I'm about to 1251 01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:49,800 Speaker 1: go on a vacation for two and a half weeks, 1252 01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:53,240 Speaker 1: and I'm sure I'll be consumed with the issue of 1253 01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:58,080 Speaker 1: torture when I should just be dipping my lobster claw 1254 01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:03,200 Speaker 1: and butter. Thanks for listening to this week's Summer staff Pick. 1255 01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:06,280 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio. 1256 01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:10,920 Speaker 1: We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeice, and myself Maureen Hoban. 1257 01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:15,160 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is 1258 01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:18,760 Speaker 1: Danielle Gingrich. Alec Balden will be back next week.