WEBVTT - A World Before Fire: The Terrestrial Anomaly 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:05.920 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:13.960 Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:16.760 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Jean McCormick. And Robert, 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:20.880 did you ever have a geology textbook or any kind 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:25.120 of old science textbook that showed those illustrations way back 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:28.360 in the day of what the Earth looked like, what 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:30.680 the surface of the Earth looks like before, you know, 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:34.480 in previous geological eras you go way way back, what 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:36.479 was it like to be on planet Earth? And and 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.879 you always see the like the volcanoes and they've like 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:42.319 caught right in the middle of an illustration some kind 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:45.360 of meteor bombardment, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, Yeah, 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.600 there's always some sort of cataclysmic scenario going on, you know, 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:51.120 something that makes for a nice painting other than just say, 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:54.680 you know, a dead sea. Yeah. And in the really 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:56.360 early ones where you see the Earth as a kind 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.960 of primordial landscape, there is very often I have found 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.520 on a red orange tint to them, you know what 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:08.120 I'm talking about, Yeah, Like they paint the Earth at 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:11.319 that period as a world of fire like that at 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:15.920 one point, Earth was how we imagine hell yeah, you know, 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:19.480 I believe the the original Fantasia film has a as 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:21.640 a segment in there which is sort of the primordial 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:25.280 Earth that invokes some of this sort of imagery sort 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:27.360 of red orange. I think, so that may be a 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:32.240 little more technicolor huge, but but I think there's some orangine. 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:34.759 Never sure as if there's like an off screen fire 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:39.399 that's illuminating everything gels. But so I want to go 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:41.840 back to say, okay, let's look at what we do 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:44.560 know about the geological history of the Earth and try 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:47.960 to paint a picture of the landscape from say, you know, 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:51.440 maybe some early part of the Archean eon. So going way, 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:54.640 way way back, if you were wells time traveler in 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.640 the time machine and you accidentally you know, you know, 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.560 I don't lean your leg up against the dial, and 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:03.720 I went back all the way, what would it be like. Well, 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:05.640 first of all, we're gonna be talking about a time 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:08.800 when the Earth has a very different atmospheric composition. So 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:12.920 it's got a reducing atmosphere with almost no significant amount 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:17.840 of free oxygen gas. And if you look across the landscape, 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:19.440 you're going to see a lot of rocks, but you 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:22.880 are not going to see visible plants or animals. Because 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:26.520 the land part of the Earth has not been colonized 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:31.120 by life. You're gonna see a hot, barren, rocky landscape. 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.040 But there is life in this period. So where's the life. Well, 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:38.359 if you go to the coastal regions, you might see 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:43.080 these strange vertical bulbs protruding up out of the tidal 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:47.679 pools around the Rocky coast and they're like black brains 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.200 that are just jutting up out of the surf. These 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:52.840 are the stramatolites. Have you seen these roberts? I don't 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:54.560 think I've seen an image of this now. Oh yeah, 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:56.760 so some of them still exist on Earth today. You 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.320 can look at things that there were probably things very 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.360 much like the stramatellites. Just Google image search. It is 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:04.720 pretty cool. They're little black brains coming up out of 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:09.680 the water. And these are these crazy bio sedimentary structures 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:14.200 made by mats of of cyanobacteria, you know, these these small, 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:19.480 tiny photosynthetic organisms trapping grains of minerals to build these 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:24.320 bacterial mountain bulbs. And it's probably hot. It's probably hot out, 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:27.400 but if you think about it, this is a world 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:33.040 completely without fire. Yeah, there's no fire on planet Earth. 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.080 And it's not just in a sense of like, oh, 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.440 there are no there are no people having camp fires, 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:41.320 there's no there's no there's no fire to be maintained. No, 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:45.560 this is a time when Earth was a a fireless world, 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:49.480 like fire was not possible. It was a time before fire. Yeah, 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.680 so you can create some some very hot scenes in 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:56.400 this geological period, but there's not going to be any ignition. 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:59.680 There will be no fire on planet Earth at this period. Yeah. 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:03.040 It's immordial as fire is to us. It's it's it's 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:05.400 it's just mind boggling to think back on a time 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.240 when it didn't exist. It was it's almost as if 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:11.520 it had not been invented yet. Yeah, and that's crazy, 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:13.800 because how could there be a world without fire. Fire 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:16.960 is not like an invention of human beings as as 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.920 you just alluded to. It's a natural product of chemistry. 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:22.880 It seems like it's should be something that's just universal. 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:26.240 There should be fire everywhere, right, it's physics and chemistry. 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:29.160 But I guess we should look at what it takes 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.159 to make a fire. Yeah, so most people are probably 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:36.760 familiar with this. You have a have three prerequisites for fire, 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:41.560 the fire pyramid, the fire fire triangle. Yeah, when we 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:45.840 were researching this, I found some rather elaborate ways to say, hey, 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:48.320 the stuff that makes a fire. Uh so you gotta 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:52.400 have your heat obviously, that's one's that's one line. You've 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:54.840 got to have your fuel. Another, what is burning? You 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:57.120 gotta have something that burns, and you have to have 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:03.520 oxygen for that fire to consume oxidizer. Yeah. So one 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:05.280 of the things that you can see from this, though, 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:09.760 is that fire is the interaction of these three elements. 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:13.440 It's not so much a thing in itself as it 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:17.480 is an event or a process. It's an interaction between 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:20.880 these three elements. And that's kind of counterintuitive to us 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:23.800 because like when you carry a torch and it feels 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:27.719 like you're carrying a substance of something somewhere. Yeah, you 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:29.400 don't think of it as is the same as being 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:33.480 a sayn explosion, which of course is also a chemical reaction, 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:35.720 but it's more of an instantaneous effect. A fire is 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:38.560 almost you can almost think of it as a as 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:41.359 an explosion and slow motion or something like that. You know, 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:44.800 it's a but but since it takes place over time, 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:47.240 we think of it as a thing as a substance, right, 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:50.080 But it is an interaction. So let's look a little 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:53.440 deeper at this interaction. What happens when a fire starts? Well, 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:55.279 you know, it comes back to those three ingredients we're 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.480 talking about. Uh, and it's interesting to to break down 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:01.359 each of those and get where they come in to 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.640 the long deep history of planet Earth. Okay, Well, one 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:07.920 source is heat. That's not really a problem, right, That's 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:11.320 never really been a problem obviously on the planet. Um, 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:14.920 you know, a sparkle do it, Lightning strikes, Volcanic activity 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.360 is sparking rocks like one rock falling down, scraping another one, Um, 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:22.320 that sort of thing, meteorites, all of these have taken 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:25.920 place throughout Earth's deep history. So that's that's never been 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:28.960 We've never wanted for heat. Okay, so we've got heat, 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:31.599 But what about the other two planks oxygen and fuel? 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:34.400 Was we alluded to earlier? You had a different atmosphere 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:38.960 back exactly? Yeah, Uh, it wasn't until five hundred and 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:42.320 forty million years ago, that's the beginning of the Paleozoic era, 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:47.280 that the photosynthetic organisms essentially terraformed the planet's atmosphere into 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:51.799 an oxygenated balance, capable of providing the necessary the necessary 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:55.120 second ingredient for fire, that being oxygen. Right, they did 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:57.680 to Earth what what we might want to do to 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:01.240 Mars in a thousand years or something. Yeah, transformed, it 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:05.719 changed its atmosphere through some chemical engineering. And uh, and 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:07.719 one thing you might have noticed is, and when I 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:09.560 was painting the picture earlier, you know, I said, we 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:13.080 had some photosynthetic organisms, but we didn't really have an 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:17.520 oxygen atmosphere yet. It took a while, right, So, photosynthetic 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:20.560 organisms appeared, and they were creating some oxygen, but for 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:23.480 a long time it seemed like oxygen was accumulating in 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.320 the oceans or sort of reacting with stuff on the 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.160 surface of the Earth and oxidizing it. But over time 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:32.720 we did start to build up a serious oxygen atmosphere. 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.160 And uh, this didn't go so well for a lot 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:38.920 of organisms, right, yeah, yeah, I mean it was an apocalypse. 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:44.120 Everything became great poison of everything that came before. But 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:46.160 you know, okay, so so at this point, we've got 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:47.840 our we've got our heat, and we finally have our 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:50.480 oxygen available, and this of course brings us to fuel 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.280 what is actually going to burn yeah, you can't burn rocks, right, 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.800 have you ever tried? That doesn't work out? So well, Uh, 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.880 this is actually the last ingredient. They became available for 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:03.320 hire since you've got to have a terrestrial plant matter 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:07.720 that builds up and you know, is burnable, and terrestrial 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:10.000 plant matter was scarce in this early age. In fact, 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:14.240 the earliest evidence of charred vegetation dates back a mere 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.160 four hundred and forty million years ago. That's not that 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.480 long ago, I mean geologically speaking. So that's the evidence, 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:22.600 of course, right, But so if the Earth has been 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:27.080 here four point five billion years and so it's only 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:29.680 been within the last billion years that we have evidence 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:33.360 of fire on Earth. But then it took off after that, 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.400 because we'll be exploring it got huge. It's really big. Yeah, 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.400 it became a rather big deal. Um. It came to 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:42.960 define the new Earth. You had geologic ages in which 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:45.920 fluctuating oxygen levels contributed to the rise and fall of 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:49.880 terrestrial burn rates. Um. And then and of course the 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:52.480 humans eventually came along. They took a shine to fire, 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.439 and the rest is history. You know. I think it's 0:08:55.480 --> 0:09:00.240 interesting to think about Earth as the fire planet, right, 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:02.760 because where where else in the universe, do we know 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.240 for sure there is fire? It is my understanding that 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:09.040 there is nowhere else in the universe that we know 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:11.800 for sure has fire. Now, there could be fire, there 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:15.120 could be, but what you would need that triangle you'd 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:19.960 write the fuel, you'd need the oxidizer or the oxygen, 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.360 and you need the heat and that just I don't 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:25.360 know of anywhere else other than Earth that you have 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:27.880 all three of those things, right we Yeah, we do 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.400 not know of a place that has fire other than 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:33.400 the Earth right now. Maybe out there many people believe 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:36.400 it exists, but for now, there is no such thing 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:40.600 as extraterrestrial fire. You know, they call Earth the water planet, 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:43.040 but this makes me think that we should also think 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:45.680 of it as the fire planet. I mean, fire seems 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:49.520 even more unique to Earth than water does. There's water 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:52.640 ice on plenty of other planets or moons and stuff 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:55.040 in the Solar system, right And of course one can 0:09:55.080 --> 0:10:00.360 certainly imagine a water world in which fire is possible, 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:02.920 but even more rare because if you just have oceans, 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:04.959 if you don't have we well just to wet, or 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.320 if you don't have plenty of dried materials around, they're 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:10.000 gonna they're gonna be able to fill that uh that 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:13.320 the third notch on the ingredients list, then it's not 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.960 gonna happen. Yeah. This also makes me think about how 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:20.320 the atmospheric composition and just the basic nature of a 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:25.760 planet create the environment under which fire can arise. But 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:28.160 also it sort of turns the knobs, right, It's not 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:31.120 just like you can have fire or you can't. Fire 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:35.200 is a chemical reaction, and chemical reactions tend to be uh, 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:38.440 they tend to be degrees of susceptibility to them, right, 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:42.320 Like you can increase all of the catalytic conditions that 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:47.520 make this chemical reaction right to take place. So, for example, uh, 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:51.120 can you imagine a science fiction story? Can you imagine? 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:53.440 Of course you can. You have a great imagination. Let's 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:57.120 imagine the science fiction story where space space explorers they're 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:59.720 flying around, they're looking for a safe planet they can 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:02.400 land end on with a breathable atmosphere because they're having 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.840 engine trouble or something, and the only planet nearby is 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:08.079 this planet that has an oxygen atmosphere. But they sat 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:12.280 down and they realized, whoa, it's got a really oxygen 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:17.320 rich atmosphere. So not just oxygen, but much higher concentrations 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:20.920 of oxygen than we're used to in Earth's atmosphere today. 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:23.719 And then let's also say it's got high temperature, is 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.160 in low moisture, you could actually have a sort of 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:32.120 maximally flammable planet, right because it would be Yeah, for 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:34.840 the same reason one does not smoke while using an 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:38.120 oxygen mask, exactly. Yeah. And also for the same reason 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:42.440 that you can see tragedies in like NASA history for example, 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.520 So you know the crew deaths during testing for the 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:49.200 Apollo one mission. They were during testing for this mission, 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:51.760 they were they were trying to test the capsule for liftoff, 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:54.280 and there was a cabin fire. It was probably ignited 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.080 by a spark from some bad wiring, but the problem 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:01.120 was that the capsule was filled with pure oxygen environment, 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:04.280 which combined with the high pressure and then the presence 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.600 of flammable materials in the cabin meant that any fire 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:11.280 could just completely easily rage out of control in a 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:14.160 in a heartbeat. And that's exactly what happened, and it 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:16.880 killed the three astronauts while they were testing on in 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.400 January nine seven. Then that was grisome, white and chaffey, 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:24.040 and so you can imagine in a in a whole 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:28.040 planet like this, if like your whole planet's atmosphere is 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:31.120 somewhere closer to what it was like in that Apollo 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:35.240 one test cabin. That's not that's not an easy place 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.720 to live, right, and to the environment, right, wander around like, 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:41.920 am I afraid of dropping a tool and accidentally causing 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:45.199 a spark? And you'd have to also be careful way 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:48.240 for your compost, that's, of course, because that's another way 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.160 that you can have a combustion, the sort of spontaneous 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:56.880 combustion that occurs certainly with compost hay bales, but arguably 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:00.800 with people as well. Uh, spontaneous seeming combustion, which is 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:03.839 another topic. Wait, Robert, you've got to give me the 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:07.520 straight on this. Okay, spontaneous human combustion. Is it real 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:09.560 or not? It's been a while since I researched it. 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.200 We have, we have an older episode on it, which 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:14.280 I can link to on the landing page for this episode. 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:20.000 As I recall, it is certainly possible, but it gets 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:23.520 difficult when you look at individual instances because a lot 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.520 of times there are other explanations that could could be 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.720 in place. Yeah, I remember some skeptical takes, at least 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:32.679 thinking that I'd come across people saying, you know, almost 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.360 all these cases can be explained just by people accidentally 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.480 setting fire their clothes, smoking in this sort of thing. 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:41.560 Um as I recall, though there are some there are 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.240 some theories for how it could take, how it could occur, 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:47.920 had it. But it's kind of a case by case 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:51.800 situation though. So if it can happen with fertilizer, could 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.400 happen with us. Yeah, if your body is enough like fertilizer, 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:56.920 then you then then then you could go up like 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.320 a torch. I think my body is much like fertilizer. 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:02.559 All right, we're gonna do a quick break and when 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:05.640 we come back, we're going to discuss how fire shaped 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:10.640 life on Earth. 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Okay, 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:02.720 we're back, so today in this episode, we're gonna be 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:06.640 referring to this excellent two thousand nine paper from Bioscience 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.720 called a Burning Story, which would be a great Pixar movie. 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:12.520 But it's a Burning Story call and the Role of 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.600 Fire in the History of Life by Julie GI Pausas 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.880 and John E. Keiley, and I want to start with 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:21.480 a quote that they have from their paper that they 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.480 write quote, A world without fires is like a sphere 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:30.360 without round nous. That is, we cannot imagine it. Wildfires 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.880 have shaped our world since long before humans emerged. We 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:37.680 cannot understand our biota and biota means all of the 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:41.600 biomass that makes up a certain area, you know, all 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:45.240 all of the life there. They say, we cannot understand 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:49.360 our biota in terms of adaptations and ecosystem distribution without 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.960 including fire as a process in the natural history of 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:56.960 the planet. So they're they're saying fire is not just 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:00.200 something that happens occasionally and you know it's suddenly like, 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:02.560 oh there's a fire, freak out, got a run from it. 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:08.560 They're they're casting fire more as a very standard, regular 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.440 part of Earth life that shaped the life forms that 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:15.560 exist on the planet today. Yeah, because they think back 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:17.760 to the three ingredients, think back to the the the 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:22.960 ways that those things occur um. So you have lightning strikes, meteorites, 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.400 et cetera, volcanic activity, these are all things that can 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:30.960 that can and do touch off natural wildfires, and so 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:36.840 periodic wildfires in the exact um you know, the schedule 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:39.320 of the wildfires, the exact regime of the wildfires, which 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:41.520 we'll get into a bit, will vary, but you're going 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:46.760 to have whole ecosystems that evolve with fire being in play. 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:51.200 Now on our planet. It's important to note there is 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:54.720 no such thing as a fireproof organism, and certainly we 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:58.040 have some wonderful examples of creatures in sci fi and 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:00.760 fantasy that you know that roll aroun sound in fire, 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.320 or particularly thinking of in Dungeons and Dragons, you have, 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.119 you know, an entire plane of fire, and they're all 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:11.320 these like salamander like beings that live there and fire elementals. 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:15.439 But life as we know it here on Earth is 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:17.560 not so rugged. Now I'm trying to think what that 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:19.639 would even be. Let's let's cut out the magic, no 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:24.280 Dungeons and Dragons stuff. No, no, no dark curses or protections, 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:28.200 just biologically. Could there be an organism that survives in fire. 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.880 I don't really see how that would happen, unless maybe 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:35.200 if it's something kind of like a weird like combination 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:38.679 of a turtle and like B B eight from the 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:41.719 Force awakened, so it's like a shell all around with 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:44.680 maybe some holes that it can slide open and close 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:49.639 or something. Yeah. I mean, we certainly have species that 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:53.160 are fire resistant, and we have plenty of species that 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:57.960 are able to to varying degrees game wildfires and certainly 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:01.879 exploit the benefits of wildfire fires. But we haven't We 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.560 have nothing that is fireproof. Nothing that that that that 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:09.159 is not destroyed by the flame, its flame is present 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:12.800 in sufficient amounts, right exactly, So fire excites molecules. The 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:16.640 structure of our molecules is rather important to us. You'd 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:19.120 have to find some organism to which I guess it's 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:23.080 surrounded by molecules that can be burned and don't really 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:26.000 matter fire. And this is important for the ways that 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:29.359 humans use fire, Like fire breaks things down, Fire changes 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:32.640 the chemistry of things. Uh and uh and and it's 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:36.520 we're just not I mean, we're just highly susceptible to that. Nevertheless, 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:40.080 the the fire world is a real part of the world, 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.080 and it's something that all kinds of organisms have come 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:45.760 up with these adaptations too. So like, like we said, 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:49.359 there's no fireproof organism, but what does it mean to 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:52.680 be a fire resistant organism? Okay? Well, one example that 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.320 often comes up or sequoias. Okay, So, so some plant 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:59.679 species actually depend on fire is part of the reproductive cycle, 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:03.760 while some simply evolved long ago to weather regular wildfires. 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:07.040 So some can get through it, right. Uh. Sequoia seeds, 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:10.439 for example, actually remain dormant until fire breaks down the 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:14.920 outer coating as such a good control. Burn can can 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:19.159 also aid the environment by stimulating local vegetation. Um, you know. 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:21.120 And on on top of this, you have a situation 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:23.720 where the fire is going to uh, it's not going 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.960 to burn down the larger plants in the various forest 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:30.200 environments are just gonna be scorched. And yes, some will succumb, 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:32.080 but for the most part, it's gonna be the smaller 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:34.880 things that get burned away, the undergrowth, and then that 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:38.520 opens up that area for new vegetation to move in. 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:44.240 It also allows various animals new opportunities to thrive. So 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.639 it it's a dynamic aspect of of many different environments 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:51.160 and and it's not just limited like it's easy to think, oh, well, 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.919 you know, like California dry hills or grasslands, and certainly 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:58.679 those are areas dry areas with vegetation are going to 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:03.119 be very susceptible to wildfire. But wildfire also exists in 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:05.840 tropical jungle environments. There are plenty of examples of that. 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:08.800 Because those areas are gonna have dry spells as well, 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.160 there's gonna be combustible materials, and therefore it's a part 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:14.720 of those environments is as well. Yeah, totally you see 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:17.040 it in grasslands, you see it in savannahs. There is 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:19.199 such a thing as desert fire. And also one of 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:24.040 the things about fire on earth is that wildfires trigger 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:29.400 cycles of wildfires. Fire begets fire in a certain way because, 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:33.640 for one thing, you can look at how fire prevents 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.639 bigger fires. This makes any sense, there's another reason for 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:41.159 control burns, Yeah, exactly. So, like small fires in a 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:45.600 certain area will clean out the underbrush, you know, dry 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:50.400 vegetation near the ground that if allowed to grow unchecked 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:54.159 by fire, could eventually lead to larger fires that actually 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:56.480 catch you know, the crowns of trees on fire, and 0:20:56.480 --> 0:21:00.480 those become very hot and spread very uncontrollably. Yeah, it's 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.199 there was There was certainly a time in like forest 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:06.480 management and agriculture where I think we we just we 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:08.440 just said, Okay, fires are bad, We're gonna we're gonna 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:10.439 cut them out wherever possible. But yeah, you just you 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:13.960 just destabilize the natural environment and the environment's ability to 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:18.040 roll with periodic wildfires. And on the subject of periodic wildfires, 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:20.880 we mentioned regimes of fire rightlier, and that's a that's 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:23.840 a great term, yeah, because it sounds like, you know, 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:27.600 fire demons ruling them a broken world, a new flaming 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.520 king since to the throne of coals. Yeah, yeah, that's 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:34.000 some dark imagery, Joe. But but it's a good day 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:36.920 for that sort of thing. Um. Yeah, So you have 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:39.919 you have a single forest fire that's an event, just 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:42.360 a fire event, but then a series of fires over time. 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:45.600 That's a fire regime, and that a fire regime. That 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:51.000 is what organisms evolve to roll with, not an individual fire, 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:53.800 but but regimes of fire. It's sort of like how 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:57.560 organisms are not going to be adapted to an individual storm, 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:01.960 but they will be adapted to the local climate, right. Yeah, 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:04.840 And of course the regimes are gonna vary in some areas, 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:07.280 some areas gonna be more prone to wildfires than others, 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:11.000 as we discussed, because you're talking about about the various 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:14.720 factors here. Human agriculture of course alters the situation somewhat. 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:20.680 You have interactions of humidity, conditions, fuels, ignition sources. All 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:24.159 these determined the particular regions fire regime. You also have 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:26.640 to take into account topography and wind, like what's gonna 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:30.080 how are those going to affect the spread of the flames. 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:32.760 And certainly I think any of our listeners who live 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:35.399 in more in places where wildfires are more of a 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:38.920