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Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: A friend said to me recently that the way to

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Speaker 1: protect your child from depression and anxiety to some extent

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Speaker 1: is to let them have a lot of unsupervised play

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Speaker 1: and minimal screen time. And I thought to myself, this

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Speaker 1: is not rocket science, but it's so hard to achieve.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people realize that this is

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Speaker 1: the path to having, you know, kind of a happier child,

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Speaker 1: but are unable to do it. And I thought back

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Speaker 1: to when my own kids were eight, five and two

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Speaker 1: in Brooklyn, and I noticed that my then eight year

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Speaker 1: old didn't have peers at the playground. The child population

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Speaker 1: of the park abruptly cut off at a certain age.

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Speaker 1: My two year old was saddling up to other two

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Speaker 1: year old who enjoyed, you know, pushing objects like strollers

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Speaker 1: and scooters around the perimeter of the park. My five

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Speaker 1: year old would join a crew of other five year

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Speaker 1: old boys and getting inexplicably dirty and turning all available

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Speaker 1: sticks into weapons. But my eight year old would often

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Speaker 1: find herself with no one her age around and end

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Speaker 1: up hanging off the monkey bars by herself. Where were

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Speaker 1: the kids? And of course it turned out they were

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Speaker 1: all in after school or weekend programs. Some did coding,

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Speaker 1: some learned another language, some took art or music. My

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Speaker 1: daughter did all of this too, at least in part

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Speaker 1: because everyone else did it and it'd be weird not to.

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Speaker 1: But we still left her with a lot of time

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Speaker 1: to do nothing much, especially outside, and it got harder

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Speaker 1: and harder to find kids her age to do the same.

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Speaker 1: Now my kids are thirteen, ten, and eight, and we

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Speaker 1: still prioritize them hanging out with friends, limiting their screens,

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Speaker 1: but it's rare to see that kids just playing outside

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Speaker 1: on their own. There are a lot of kids on

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Speaker 1: our block, but very few just run around outside, ride

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Speaker 1: their bikes or scooters or whatever, and just play outside

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Speaker 1: with no plan and no structured events. One neighbor told

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Speaker 1: me that kids used to play outside a lot, but

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Speaker 1: COVID moved everyone indoors and they just never reverted to form.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is South Florida. Nothing depresses me more

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Speaker 1: than hearing that unstructured play helps kids negotiate friendships and

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Speaker 1: use their imaginations to create a good time for themselves.

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Speaker 1: The physical activity of play also keeps kids healthy and

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Speaker 1: fights obesity and the rest of it. But it mostly

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Speaker 1: makes them not boring and not able to be as

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Speaker 1: bored as kids who rely on constant structure to have

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Speaker 1: a good time, you know. Back in twenty eighteen, the

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Speaker 1: website Matchable posted a video of a UK school program

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Speaker 1: that was very happy with the results they were having

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Speaker 1: from having students run around fifteen minutes a day outside

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Speaker 1: and one of my all time favorites. The University of

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Speaker 1: Tennessee law professor Glenn Reynolds tweeted at the time, we

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Speaker 1: shall call it recess. It's not like we don't know

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Speaker 1: that the accidental exercise of play has a variety of

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Speaker 1: benefit for kids, So why don't we encourage it more.

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Speaker 1: There's this worry, and I remember writing about it years ago,

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Speaker 1: but that any minute not overscheduled will lead to kids

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Speaker 1: getting up to no good. Mayor of New York builde

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Speaker 1: Blasio made some comment like, we can't have kids, you know,

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Speaker 1: not having anything to do. So, in addition to the

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Speaker 1: concern that kids will get into trouble if they aren't

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Speaker 1: meticulously scheduled and after school and weekend programming, the other

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Speaker 1: thing that parents in society, I guess, worries about is

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Speaker 1: screen time. The idea is that any moment that isn't

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Speaker 1: builled can devolve into TV or tablet time. And to

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Speaker 1: fight it, families are limiting free play, like, of course

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Speaker 1: my kid needs to be in seventeen activities, how could

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Speaker 1: I keep them off his iPad? Otherwise, what if parents

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Speaker 1: simply parented their children and said no to too much

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Speaker 1: TV and tablet time? The choice doesn't have to be

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Speaker 1: between planned and paid for activities or drooling in front

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Speaker 1: of the tube or being on the quote unquote streets.

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Speaker 1: You know. Take your eight, ten, twelve year olds to

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Speaker 1: the park, let them climb stuff and make new friends

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Speaker 1: on the fly. Think of it as like an enrichment

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Speaker 1: class for your kids. Marn Key bars one oh one.

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Speaker 1: It's just as important as there are other classes, but

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Speaker 1: free and useful. Coming up next and interview with Jason Riley.

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Speaker 1: Join us after the break. Hi, and welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My guest today is

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Speaker 1: Jason Riley. Jason is a senior fellow at the Manhattan

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Speaker 1: Institute and columnist for The Wall Street Journal. So nice

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Speaker 1: to have you on, Jason.

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Speaker 2: Good to be with you, Carol.

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Speaker 1: So in the research I was doing before having you

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Speaker 1: on the show, I discovered your super prolific and I

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Speaker 1: I don't feel like I was aware of that. You've

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Speaker 1: written four books. Which one was your favorite?

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's a tough one.

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Speaker 1: You hate them all right?

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Speaker 2: No? No, The one I probably enjoyed researching the most

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Speaker 2: was a biography of the economist Thomas soul someone who

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Speaker 2: had been a real intellectual hero of mine growing up

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Speaker 2: when I was sort of starting to think about a

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Speaker 2: lot of the issues I write about today, and his

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Speaker 2: background is really fascinating, as is his body of work.

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Speaker 2: So I did very much enjoy diving, doing a deep

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Speaker 2: dive into his life and his writings, and so that's

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Speaker 2: probably my favorite.

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Speaker 1: I really enjoyed that one. I have to catch up.

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Speaker 1: I don't think i've read two of them, so I'll

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Speaker 1: get on that before your next appearance. I've always enjoyed

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Speaker 1: your column and you're writing in general, but the column

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Speaker 1: that made me reach out to you to have you

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Speaker 1: on the show was the one that you just as

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Speaker 1: the left wing intellectuals who claim to care deeply about

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Speaker 1: the circumstances of low income minorities are simultaneously reluctant to

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Speaker 1: tell them the truth about what drives social inequality, and

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Speaker 1: you were describing Melissa Kearney's new book, The Two Parent Privilege.

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Speaker 1: I've talked about that book on the show before, but

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Speaker 1: I particularly particularly liked how you pointed out that her

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Speaker 1: book is not actually provocative or earth shattering, and plenty

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Speaker 1: of people have made the marriage is good argument before

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Speaker 1: using data and numbers, just like her, but that her

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Speaker 1: argument is aimed at liberals who know that she's right

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Speaker 1: but won't say so. So how do you challenge that?

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess I guess you praise the liberals like

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Speaker 2: I try to do, who do speak honestly about these topics.

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Speaker 2: And you know, if they don't want to hear it

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Speaker 2: coming from me, or coming from Charles Murray or coming

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Speaker 2: from James Q. Wilson, maybe they'll want to hear it

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Speaker 2: coming from Melissa Carnie. So that's why I decided to

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Speaker 2: write about the book. But she's She's absolutely right. We

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Speaker 2: just have a ton of research showing that children that

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Speaker 2: come from two parent families tend to do better in life,

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Speaker 2: and that has been the case for a long long time,

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Speaker 2: and yet we continue to downplay the significance of the

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Speaker 2: two parent family and watch it diminish in terms of

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Speaker 2: its frequency. I think the data she had in there

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Speaker 2: was that in nineteen sixty just five percent of babies

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Speaker 2: were born to single moms. In twenty nineteen it was

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Speaker 2: close to half. I mean, two parent families are the

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Speaker 2: best way we know any civilization has known to raise

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Speaker 2: the next generation. I mean the idea that you could

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Speaker 2: see that sort of deterioration in the institution of that

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Speaker 2: raises the next generation and expect there to be no consequences.

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Speaker 2: It's just ridiculous on its face.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that her book moves the needle? Do

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Speaker 1: you think liberals do? I mean, the thing is that

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Speaker 1: they are largely the people who are saying to her,

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Speaker 1: we agree with you, We just don't think it's appropriate

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Speaker 1: for you to say, so are living that married too,

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Speaker 1: parent family life. So how do we make them kind

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Speaker 1: of admit what they have and what they're pushing other

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Speaker 1: people not to have.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think we have to call them out on

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Speaker 2: it frankly and highlight how ridiculous and how hypocritical their

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Speaker 2: actions are versus their words like you're right. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the old phrase for this used to be living the

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Speaker 2: fifties and talking the sixties. For your viewers that are

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Speaker 2: too young maybe to get that, it was a reference

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Speaker 2: to the nineteen fifties, when you much had more conservative

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Speaker 2: social values in contrasting that with the nineteen sixties, where

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Speaker 2: you had this countercultural revolution taking place and ro tests

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Speaker 2: and and and drugs and so forth, and it was

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Speaker 2: cool to embrace all that, and and many of the

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Speaker 2: adults who did embrace it nevertheless made sure that they

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Speaker 2: didn't live that lifestyle themselves. I think you have a

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Speaker 2: lot of that going on today. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think it's you know, live right, talk left is

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Speaker 1: the is the more you know the version I've heard recently.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, sorry, no, I was.

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Speaker 2: Just going to say. And And one of the things

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Speaker 2: that's fascinating about the importance of the two parent family

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Speaker 2: is that the outcomes transcend not only race and ethnicity,

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Speaker 2: but also income levels. In other words, there is a

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Speaker 2: stronger correlation between someone coming from a single parent home

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Speaker 2: and winding up in jail than there is someone being

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Speaker 2: black or hispanic and winding up the gym kids. Who

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Speaker 2: you know, black boys in general are suspended from school

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Speaker 2: at higher rates than white boys, but black boys from

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Speaker 2: two parent families are suspended less often than white boys

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Speaker 2: from single parent homes. So again, the importance of the

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Speaker 2: family transcends a lot of these other factors that we

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Speaker 2: look at as root causes of kids getting into trouble

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Speaker 2: or getting involved with drugs and so forth down the road.

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Speaker 2: And that's why I think that the right focus is

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Speaker 2: on re establishing the importance of the two parent family.

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Speaker 2: And we know, and we always have to use this caveat,

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Speaker 2: We know that there are heroic single moms that beat

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Speaker 2: the odds. Some of us are even related to them.

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Speaker 2: But nevertheless, I think as a society with a public policy,

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Speaker 2: our focus should be on steering the next generation in

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Speaker 2: the right direction so that they don't have to face

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Speaker 2: the odds to begin with. And and and that's I

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Speaker 2: think where the debate needs to be had.

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Speaker 1: Kearney, she actually describes marriage as people see it as

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Speaker 1: a luxury belief now, and I think that's such a

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Speaker 1: big challenge to overcome, Like where you know, poor or

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Speaker 1: middle class people see it as something rich people do,

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Speaker 1: and that's just wild to me. Why why why would

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Speaker 1: that be the case.

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Speaker 2: I think that you know, partly this has to do

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Speaker 2: with an inability in society today to speak simple truths

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Speaker 2: about any number of things. I mean, Carney has these

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Speaker 2: stories about how when she was working on this book,

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Speaker 2: some of her colleagues in academia would approach her and say,

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Speaker 2: are you sure you want to publish your findings? You know,

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Speaker 2: you might be ostracized in certain social circles that you're

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Speaker 2: now embraced in. You might be considered a conservative and

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Speaker 2: a social conservative. And then that's the you know, nothing's

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Speaker 2: worse than that in the circles that she runs in.

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Speaker 2: But you know, put put the talk about talking up

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Speaker 2: marriage aside. You're not allowed to say that, you know,

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Speaker 2: the kid who swam on the boys team last year

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Speaker 2: shouldn't be swimming on the girls team this year. Right,

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Speaker 2: You're not allowed to say that math isn't racist. You're

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Speaker 2: not allowed to say that punctuality is not white supremacy.

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Speaker 2: There are so many.

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Speaker 1: Things it is white supremacy because I'm never on time,

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Speaker 1: and you know, Jews, Jews are only recently white.

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Speaker 3: So so so there are any number of areas where

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Speaker 3: the adults in the room are no longer behaving like adults.

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Speaker 2: And I guess we see that playing out on the

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Speaker 2: college campuses today once again. But but it's not just

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Speaker 2: saying honest things about marriage. There are there are so

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Speaker 2: many things that have become verboten recently that, uh, you know,

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Speaker 2: a generation of the they look at this, it's completely ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, telling the truth has become revolutionary somehow. Your wife,

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Speaker 1: Naomi Shaeffer Riley, is also a writer, and you guys

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Speaker 1: are in a similar right of center political space. Do

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Speaker 1: you guys have any disagreements on big issues?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Wow, let's get into it, Jason, I won't tell her anything.

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Speaker 2: She's uh not, not on not on big issues. I

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Speaker 2: can't think of any really big issues where we have

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Speaker 2: a big disagreements.

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Speaker 1: Now, right, does she change your mind or you? Do

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Speaker 1: you change her mind? How does it? How does it

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Speaker 1: normally go? Because I know I changed my husband's mind.

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Speaker 1: My husband has all the time.

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Speaker 2: She's absolutely that's right.

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Speaker 1: Good answer, good answer. How long have you been a writer?

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Speaker 2: I've been writing since college. I started writing for the

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Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal about six months after graduating from college.

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Speaker 2: I've been writing for them for almost thirty years now.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: So I started at the school at the college newspaper

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Speaker 2: was my first job as a journalist, and then I

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Speaker 2: had an internship or two and worked at the local

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Speaker 2: paper where I went to school and for about six

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Speaker 2: months after graduation, and then I joined the Wall Street Journal.

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Speaker 1: Wow, So any takes that you've had over those thirty

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Speaker 1: years that you regret? I have a question of Kyle Smith,

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Speaker 1: and he was definitive.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: He stands by everything he's ever written.

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Speaker 2: I can't think of anything i'd take back. Maybe the

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Speaker 2: tone would be a little different as you were sure

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Speaker 2: there should be I guess a little less self righteousness

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Speaker 2: as you get older. But I think that I pretty

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Speaker 2: much stand by what I what I think I've written years.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to go back and read some snarky

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Speaker 1: early Jason Riley columns.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, no shortage of those.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like you've made it?

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Speaker 2: Made it? Oh? Wow? Well, uh, the expectations were not

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Speaker 2: very high for me. Pretty much I had to stay

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Speaker 2: out of jail and I would be considered a huge

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Speaker 2: successful Buh No, I I I I think that, Uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, I wanted to get married, have a family,

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Speaker 2: make a career as a journalist, and so far, so good.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I feel like you're on the right track,

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Speaker 1: like really heading in that direction. Yeah, what would you

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Speaker 1: say is the biggest societal or a cultural challenge that

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Speaker 1: America faces and do you think it's solvable?

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Speaker 2: Well, I would point to what we were started out

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Speaker 2: discussing the breakdown of the family because of all the

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Speaker 2: bad outcomes that that result from that. You know, from crime, uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, substance abuse, you know teen pregnancy, the cycle

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Speaker 2: that that occurs. So I think that is something we

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Speaker 2: need to address. I think we we can. I haven't.

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Speaker 2: I haven't given up on it. We have certainly have

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Speaker 2: examples out there that it still does work. If you

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Speaker 2: look at the highest performing groups in the US right now,

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Speaker 2: you're talking about Asian Americans. Guess who has the highest

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Speaker 2: marriage rates in the lowest out of woodlock Worth rates, Nasians.

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Speaker 2: So it still works and there's no examples around, and

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Speaker 2: not just Asians in America. If you look at South

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Speaker 2: Korea you will see the same thing. If you look

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Speaker 2: at Japan you will see the same thing. That this

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Speaker 2: is something that is not limited to to to the

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Speaker 2: US by by any stretch. So so I I I

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Speaker 2: think that is a big, big problem. I also, aside

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Speaker 2: from that, look at the political divisions in the country

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Speaker 2: and particularly the role that I think social media has

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Speaker 2: been playing in those divisions, and it seems to me

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Speaker 2: like that's something social media that is that we still

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Speaker 2: haven't gotten our heads around as this new phenomenon and

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Speaker 2: how to deal with it, and so I think that

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Speaker 2: is a challenge going forward. But I do think it's

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Speaker 2: something that we eventually will get the hang of. But unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think things might might get worse before

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Speaker 2: they get better on that front.

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Speaker 1: Do you let your kids have social media? Are you

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Speaker 1: guys pretty strict about it?

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Speaker 2: Speaking of disagreements with my wife?

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Speaker 1: Oh, there you go, So there is some you.

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Speaker 2: Know, it's it's hard as your children get older. I

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Speaker 2: have two teenagers and one preteen. And I'm sorry, how

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Speaker 2: old are they? I have a sixteen year old or

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Speaker 2: fourteen year old and eleven year old, and the sixteen

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Speaker 2: year old and the fourteen year old, it's very hard

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Speaker 2: for them not to be on screens and even on

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Speaker 2: social media, even in terms of what the school is

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Speaker 2: expecting of them in terms of doing their school work.

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Speaker 2: And I do take some issue with that. We were

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Speaker 2: very strict with screen time before they were teenagers, and

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Speaker 2: that just became more and more untenable as they got older,

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Speaker 2: and so you're sort of almost working against the educators

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Speaker 2: there what you're trying to do at home and what

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Speaker 2: they want kids to do at school. But by and large,

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Speaker 2: you know, if anything, since social media as all the

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Speaker 2: kids have ever known, maybe they'll adapt better than we

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Speaker 2: will as adults whom this is just a new phenomenon

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Speaker 2: and something we previously never experienced.

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Speaker 1: Interesting. So it's funny because I also have three kids

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Speaker 1: ten and eight, and it's my thirteen and ten sort

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Speaker 1: of get the limitations on social media that we set

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Speaker 1: to my eight year old. And I've heard this from

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Speaker 1: other parents at that age group they're really young, like six, seven, eight,

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Speaker 1: They somehow are like, I mean, he's not in any

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Speaker 1: social media obviously, he's eight years old. He doesn't have

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Speaker 1: a phone, he doesn't there anything, but he's like, I

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Speaker 1: want to be on TikTok, like I want to be

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Speaker 1: doing dances, and I wonder if it's like again, I've

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Speaker 1: heard this from other parents that the youngest child is

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Speaker 1: usually the one who wants it the most because they

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Speaker 1: see like older kids elsewhere.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was going to be my observation that our youngest,

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Speaker 2: who also isn't doesn't have a phone or isn't on

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Speaker 2: social media, sees their older siblings constantly staring at the

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Speaker 2: screens and gets a little envious. So I guess that

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Speaker 2: that's not a new phenomenon in terms of being being

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Speaker 2: the youngest. I had an older sister, and so I

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Speaker 2: wanted to do things that she was allowed to do

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Speaker 2: before me as well. So that that's not necessary.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and be right

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Speaker 1: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. I see the older kids.

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Speaker 1: I mean, maybe this is just my kids, but my

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Speaker 1: thirteen year old it's almost like a point of pride

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Speaker 1: that she's not on it, Like she's on snapchat with

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Speaker 1: her friends, but that's it. But it's like, I'm cool

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Speaker 1: because I'm not on any of this, Like, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess that's the uh, I hope thinking we

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Speaker 2: wanted the kids to have about.

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Speaker 1: Tattoos and so much more.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to stand out by not getting one right.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, how about you rebel by also not being

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Speaker 1: a liberal, you know, just in case we're throwing out rebellious.

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Speaker 2: You know ideas.

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Speaker 1: Here So for my last question and with your best

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Speaker 1: tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay, yeah, I trust you, Jason. Well, uh,

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Speaker 2: I guess i'd pick up on the on the social

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Speaker 2: media phenomenon that I was talking about as a problem.

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Speaker 2: And one of the reasons that's the problem is because, uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, previous generations tended to to have overlapping sources

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Speaker 2: of news. You know, I grew up watching three television

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Speaker 2: channels basically and and and and then we would all

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Speaker 2: go off and have our debates. But we all watched

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Speaker 2: the three same three networks, right and then had our

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Speaker 2: debates about them. Today you don't have that, and and

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Speaker 2: social media sort of a that's this ability to uh

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Speaker 2: only only watch what you want to watch and have

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Speaker 2: your your your prejudices reinforced, and and and so. As

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Speaker 2: I often tell people, the problem is not that someone

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Speaker 2: watches M S, n b C or someone watches Fox.

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Speaker 2: The problem is when you only watch M S n

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Speaker 2: b C or only watch Fox, and and you really

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Speaker 2: can't relate to to to to your your your neighbor

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Speaker 2: who doesn't watch the same things you watch. So I

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Speaker 2: always encourage people to uh to to to flip flip

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Speaker 2: the channel right read read read opinions you disagree with

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Speaker 2: get to know so that you know where other people

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Speaker 2: are coming from. And and and I think that that

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Speaker 2: is one way to help us sort of dial it

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Speaker 2: down a little bit in terms of the volume of

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Speaker 2: the disagreement. Uh and and perhaps not be talking past

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Speaker 2: one another to the extent that we that we currently are.

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Speaker 1: Ambitious, very ambitious to listen, listen to other people's opinions

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Speaker 1: that you don't agree with, okay, and that might improve

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Speaker 1: your life. Well, thank you so much, Jason. It's been

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Speaker 1: really great to have you on. Find him in the

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Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal. He's fantastic writes. Often check him out.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks so much for joining us on the

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Speaker 1: Carol Marcowitch Show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.