1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Mollie John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some. 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 2: Of today's best minds. 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 3: We're almost back from vacation, but we still have a 5 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 3: great show for you today. Wall Street Journal Chief Foreign 6 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 3: Affairs correspondent. You're a slav. Trofle Moth joins us to 7 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 3: talk about his new book, Our Enemies Will Vanish, the 8 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 3: Russian invasion and Ukraine's War on Independence. But first we 9 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 3: have NBC's Matt Dixon to tell us all about his 10 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 3: new book, Swamp Monsters, Trump Versus DeSantis. 11 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 4: Welcome Matt, Well, thank you very much. 12 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 2: You are Florida di like Rick Wilson, but probably don't 13 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: curse as much. But you do live in Tallahassee. 14 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 4: I've heard too. 15 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 2: We don't cast aspersion. 16 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 4: It is observation. I not a dispersion. 17 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: Is it a dispersion? 18 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: I think it's an aspersion hard So the book is 19 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: called Swamp Monsters. 20 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 2: Talk to me about Ron DeSantis. 21 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 4: One of the most interesting things about him is, to 22 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 4: some degree he became better known nationally and people started 23 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 4: to see sort of this crotchety guy, this sort of 24 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 4: charmless battering ram of a man who just kind of 25 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 4: couldn't really make human connections. It was interesting because I 26 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 4: covered gosh. I lived in jacksonvilleiames in Congress, so I've 27 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 4: covered him since his congressional days, and it was sort 28 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 4: of interesting to watch the rest of the world see 29 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 4: what I had seen for a very long time. And 30 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 4: the rambling response to your question is a lot of 31 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 4: the stereotypes about him, a lot of the things that 32 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 4: people think they think are kind of right. And I 33 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 4: think that's kind of what's the most notable about him. 34 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 4: He wears that on his sleeve and sort of all 35 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 4: the personality quirks and the you know, rubbing of the snot. 36 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: Did you think when you started this book, oh, this 37 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: fucking guy is not going to be the nomine like 38 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: not even close. Or did you think maybe there's a. 39 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 4: Work No, I thought, I mean covering the his rise 40 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 4: post pandemic and that the midterm re elections. I didn't know, 41 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 4: you know, I wasn't in the you know, I one 42 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 4: hundred percent think he's going to be the nominee. But 43 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,559 Speaker 4: with you know, he speaks pretty well to the base, 44 00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 4: at least before Trump got back in. He knows that 45 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 4: right language, he knows the issues. I definitely did not 46 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 4: anticipate he was going to underperform expectations the way he has, 47 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 4: So I didn't think he was a cinch for the nomination, 48 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 4: but I thought in a primary environment he was going 49 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 4: to be a pretty good candidate. 50 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: Everyone for the National Review, all those guys who. 51 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: Already really hate me, and I would like to add, 52 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: have hated my grandfather and hated my mother. 53 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 2: I come by that hatred very honestly. 54 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: But that crew has always hated me, and they were 55 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: so fucking pissed at me because they had this fantasy 56 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: that Ron DeSantis was going to do like a nice 57 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: light fascism, all the authoritarianism, none of the unforced errors. 58 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 2: And I saw him and I was like. 59 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: Holy fuck, if this guy becomes a nominee, we're in 60 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: a lot of trouble because he is actually pretty smart 61 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: and could really I mean, he's very smart. 62 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,679 Speaker 4: Well, without question, he's very smart. But I do think 63 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 4: one of the slightness about him is this idea that 64 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 4: he's some great administrator or a more complicent version of 65 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 4: Trump in the sense ooh say more. 66 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 2: This is interesting to me. 67 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 4: So many of the pieces of legislation, his biggest pieces 68 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,679 Speaker 4: of legislation have ended up in court and found unconstant courts. 69 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 4: His administration from a staffing standpoint has been a bit 70 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,959 Speaker 4: of a mess. He's fired every campaign team he's ever had, 71 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 4: and you can see some of the stuff going on 72 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 4: with the super pack and the campaign staff is that 73 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 4: doesn't go as well. So has always had staffing issues. 74 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 4: There's always been sort of a palace intrigued circular firing squad. 75 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 4: Some of his biggest sort of policy priorities that he 76 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 4: talks about to this day while running for president discratch 77 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 4: a little below the service and read a couple court opinions. 78 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 4: A lot of them didn't really sort of pan out 79 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 4: the way the initial headline did. 80 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 2: Are you talking about don't say gay? Or are you talking 81 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 2: about something else? 82 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 4: Well, in some of them it should be not that 83 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 4: are still going through the courts that bill, and there's 84 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 4: been several sort of culture war themed bills as he 85 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 4: grows through the sort of National Republic and ecosystem that 86 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 4: he got a lot of attention for, did big splashy 87 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 4: press releases and all sorts of stuff, and you know, 88 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 4: twenty million dollars in legal fees later, they're still either 89 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 4: tied up in the courts or have have been tossed. 90 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 4: So I think there's some mythology around around the Santis 91 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 4: that he's sort of bureaucratic. 92 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 2: But I mean he's still more confident than Trump. Not 93 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: saying much, but. 94 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, right, but I do think there's a gray area there, right, 95 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 4: Like it's not he's either Donald Trump or this you know, 96 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 4: wonderful administrator. There's a space in between, and that's what 97 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 4: he occupies. 98 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: That's I think a really good point. And the truth 99 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: is being better than Donald Trump at anything does not make. 100 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: You good at something. 101 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about Pushaw, Christina Prushaw. 102 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: What's his story there? She's the big lipped Twitter kind 103 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: of monster that is a part of Desanta's world. But 104 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: I feel like I've never encountered a presidential candidate who 105 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: has sort of a handler like that. 106 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 4: I think how you describe her there, how she acts 107 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 4: on social media is correct, but the tense is important here. 108 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 4: She was that if you've noticed her Twitter persona is 109 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 4: essentially just she's a factory of where retweets. At this point, 110 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 4: the the personality, the personal attacks, the things that defined 111 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 4: her as she was really sort of coming on the 112 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 4: scene are largely gone. I think she's pretty much sidelined 113 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 4: at this point, and I think is brand de Santis 114 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 4: does Morning Joe, you know, three times a week now. 115 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 4: I think the general idea of their premise that Robert 116 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 4: Media has sort of lost its power and that there's 117 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 4: going to be this rise of this new sort of 118 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 4: far right attack media ecosystem is largely fall flat. We've 119 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 4: sort of seen that. I mean, just on Tuesday morning, 120 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 4: I think it was Tuesday morning or Monday night, there 121 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 4: was some Tucker Carlson interview where he sort of trashed 122 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 4: the Desantas press handlers and the people, and it, to me, 123 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 4: it felt like sort of the final nail on the 124 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 4: coffin of that sort of press strategy, because Desantas is 125 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 4: doing way more mainstream stuff, his sort of biggest, biggest. 126 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: It is interesting they had they had decided they weren't 127 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: going to engage with the mainstream media because they didn't 128 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: need it, because they had everything they wanted and they're 129 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: crazy far right world, and then they just changed their mind. 130 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 4: It shocked the system initially when it first came on 131 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 4: the scene, so we were all like, oh my gosh, 132 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 4: they were getting you know, anytime Sands set a negative story, 133 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 4: they would get headlines and conservative media outlets and sometimes 134 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 4: up the Fox News about the reporter. The attacks were 135 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 4: very personal, but it quickly became white noise what they 136 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 4: swung at every pitch, So it became easier and easier 137 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 4: to ignore and not to mention the sort of sophomore 138 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 4: like the lameness of their jokes, I'm sorry this is 139 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 4: happening to you, sort of insults that sort of populate 140 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 4: that ecosystem are just dumb. They flooded the zone and 141 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 4: it was days of trolls and your your mentions, but 142 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 4: eventually it's just like, wow, this is this is sort 143 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 4: of an unimpressive attack. That's that's become easy to ignore. 144 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is interesting that they out trumped themselves a 145 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: little bit. 146 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, I think that's right. I mean Trump came, 147 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 4: you know, coined the term fake news or really made 148 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 4: it popular, and I think the DeSantis folks wanted to 149 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 4: take that to next logical extension and it just wasn't 150 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 4: strategically smart one and two, I don't think they're quite 151 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 4: as good at it right. 152 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: Ultimately, Like the thing I'm always struck by with it 153 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: is that desantists had all these policies like it was 154 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: an interview I recently saw I have my when he 155 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: was on Morning Joe Meeka asked him about the sort 156 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: of anti democratic policies of Trump, and DeSantis was like, 157 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: they're not anti democratic enough. 158 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think he said something the effective I don't 159 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 4: think he could go as far as he could have 160 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 4: with the or he's granted under the Constitution, and he's 161 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 4: specifically pivoted to some the quote non violent January sixth folks, 162 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 4: And I think, I think I know what interview you're 163 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 4: talking about. Yeah, so I don't. I was asked, I 164 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 4: forget where, but on some interview about how DeSantis tries 165 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 4: to till that liner, he tries to navigate those waters, 166 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 4: and my answer was, well, he's really not. I mean 167 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 4: he's trying to. You know, it's not like he shies 168 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 4: away from from some of the things we're talking about 169 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 4: in any real or material way. He leans into them 170 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 4: and says, hey, we can can go further under the constitution. 171 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 4: And if someone can't, as someone says we can't, let's 172 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 4: go to court. And that's kind of what his administration 173 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 4: in Florida has been for a long time. 174 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: I me and kind of incredible. Right, Florida is actually 175 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: not as read like. He won by a lot, but 176 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: part of that was because he was running against the 177 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: world's worst politician who had been a Republican, and also 178 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: because the party fell apart. 179 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 4: Right yep, even I mean, even if you think Charlie 180 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 4: crist individually is a bad politician, the Democrat ran against 181 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 4: the Santis that even there was no money, that national 182 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 4: Democrats completely give up, and he had. 183 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:33,719 Speaker 2: Been a Republican. 184 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: I mean, you would like ten days ago. I mean, 185 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: it was a complete shit show. 186 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 4: The number that always jumps out at me in the 187 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 4: previous midterms, So I guess it would have been twenty eighteen. 188 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 4: The national Democratic organizations that Constellation spent about sixty million 189 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 4: in Florida, they spent about two and twenty twenty two. 190 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 4: So I don't think there's a way to underscore a 191 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 4: twenty point win in Florida. And I actually think Desantas 192 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 4: deserves some credit for that, just because it's so big 193 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 4: in a state for no recounts and super so he 194 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 4: had an impressive of twenty twenty two, and it should 195 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 4: have been a good springboard into you know, a little 196 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 4: more momentum headed into his presidential race, and it's just 197 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:12,839 Speaker 4: what I think is kind of mind boggling is how 198 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 4: quickly that massive victory America's governor, all that stuff fell 199 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 4: flat as soon as the rubber and me at the 200 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 4: road on the presidential cycle. 201 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I also think running on COVID when 202 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 1: COVID is not the central right, like, I mean, the 203 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: whole idea is going to run on how well he did, 204 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: which really he didn't, but whatever, for a pandemic that 205 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: isn't what people are focused on anymore. 206 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: I think is also interesting. 207 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 4: He only really started to lean into it once desperation 208 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 4: mode kicked in. I mean, when he started with you know, 209 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 4: two hundred million dollars budgets for a super pack and 210 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 4: all this this crazymera of this momentum, he wouldn't do 211 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 4: any of the fauci stuffing into the vaccine stuff. He 212 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 4: didn't attack Trump at all. So he's now really running 213 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 4: on COVID and sort of his record during the height 214 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 4: of the pandemic that which conservatives like. But it came 215 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 4: much later in the game when the poll numbers were 216 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 4: already you know, headed in the wrong direction for him. 217 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 4: And it's not like he opened up with this stuff. 218 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 4: It became more apparent when he knew he was in trouble. 219 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: The thing that I think is so medieval about him 220 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: is his anti gay stuff, Like that stuff is sort 221 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: of like out of another center. 222 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 4: The chair of his Republican Party of Florida is in 223 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 4: his own sex scandal that involves his wife with another woman's. 224 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 4: I think it's important to note that she that the 225 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 4: wife and there is accused of nor I'm doing. But 226 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 4: the hypocrisy aspect of that is started a lot of attention. 227 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 4: You're certainly right. And one of the things about the 228 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 4: Santas I do think he believes the things he talks 229 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 4: about and pushes. 230 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: I do. 231 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 4: There's some politicians who are are much more performative and 232 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 4: want to speak to a political base or a political 233 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 4: supporters in the way that they think works best. I 234 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 4: do think Desantas says says, you know, for for better 235 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 4: or worse, and not necessarily the defense of the positions. 236 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 4: But he believes the stuff we're talking he's talking about 237 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 4: out and advocates you. 238 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 2: Think it really does hate gay people. 239 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 4: What also? I mean, he certainly pushed a lot of 240 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 4: pieces of legislation and a lot of policy proposals that 241 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 4: that community does not like. And my point was that 242 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 4: I actually think he believes these things. It's not performative 243 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 4: to him. 244 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 2: No, I think he does genuinely suck. 245 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: But it is interesting, and I also think he's a 246 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: terrible bigot, but it is interesting to me, Like in 247 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: the year twenty twenty three, we have a guy who's like, 248 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,119 Speaker 1: if you teach kids about being gay, they'll be gay. 249 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 4: When there's been so many unintended consequences. When they sort 250 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 4: of talk about these pieces of legislation, they don't say 251 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 4: gay bill, for instance. I mean, it obviously got a 252 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 4: ton of pushback, but they said it was just going 253 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 4: to be in classrooms up to third grade. 254 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: Right, But they were totally lying, right because then immediately 255 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: it's now it's at high school. 256 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 4: They evenformalized that the board that oversees state college is 257 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 4: largely appointed by the santis. Formally he's expanded it to 258 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 4: seventh grade. So even there was informal ripple effects from that, 259 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 4: but even sort of the administrative state. Dare I say 260 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,040 Speaker 4: that Florida's deep state expanded that law as opponents of it. 261 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: I thought it was so interesting with the Moms for Liberty. 262 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: So here she is Bridget Ziegeler involved in. Again, being 263 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: in atois is not against the law, in case anyone's wondering, 264 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: Nor is being married to a guy who may or 265 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: may not. But it's certainly their is accused of raping 266 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: a woman. But it is interesting to me. You know, 267 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: she did send her kids to private school while being 268 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 1: on the school board. So this level of you know, 269 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,439 Speaker 1: calling everyone a groomer and then actually being married or 270 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: accused rapist is pretty interesting stuff. 271 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 4: Well, it was also acknowledged. I mean, she's openly talked 272 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:40,839 Speaker 4: about the fact that she had a helping hand in 273 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 4: craft that don't say yalaengislation. So the criminal investigation aside, 274 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 4: there's a whole can of worms about hypocrisy that I 275 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 4: think is getting a lot of attention right now and 276 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 4: probably should. 277 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: One of the other things that Florida has done is 278 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: they have you know, so you can't teach about sexuality, 279 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: but you also can't at an abortion, right. I mean, 280 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: he had a more moderate sance on abortion. He changed it, right, 281 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: let's talk about DeSantis. Yeah. 282 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,119 Speaker 4: Well, and also I think there is some self realization 283 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 4: on his part that it's not popular because he didn't 284 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 4: get a ton of attention at the time, and maybe 285 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 4: he should is he When he signed to Florida's six 286 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 4: week abortion man. He did it, which is very rare 287 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 4: for him, eleven thirty at night in his office usually 288 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 4: the bills. I mean, DeSantis is well known for having 289 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 4: huge splashet press conferences when he does bill signings or 290 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 4: things of that nature. And this was done, you know, 291 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 4: in the darkness of night in his office, So I 292 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 4: think there were some clear signals there that he knew, 293 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 4: you know. I think he wanted to sign it. I 294 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 4: think he believes in it, but he realized what he 295 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 4: was doing wasn't wasn't going to be helpful for him, 296 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 4: but he. 297 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: Felt he had to do it to win the nomination 298 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:46,719 Speaker 2: right well. 299 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 4: And I also think, like I had mentioned earlier about 300 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 4: he believes in the stuff he does. I do think 301 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 4: he believes in the stuff at a personal level. As 302 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 4: you're preparing your run for president in a Republican primary, 303 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 4: can't be a video an abortion bills. 304 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: Let's get away from the insane religious zelism, zealadism, zolatinism. 305 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: I've just made up the word and talk about the lifts. 306 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: So he's wearing these cowboy boots. He's obviously not a 307 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: hugely tall guy. He's wearing kebbo boots. Is he just 308 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: think nobody's gonna notice. I mean, like some of these 309 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: unforced errors seem like they just he just never occupied Earth. Wan. 310 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 4: Well, there is a thing, and maybe this is like 311 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 4: just a backwoods Tallahassee thing, but like suits and cowboy boots, 312 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 4: like is a thing that happens here with some degree 313 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 4: of regularity. It's not like a unique fashion sense, and 314 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 4: a lot of the governor's staff also wear them. But 315 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 4: where I think the problem is is where he's got 316 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 4: like the wicked wish of the West look, where the 317 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 4: like the boots are actually sort of like curling up, 318 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 4: and it's very clear this is a normal look. So 319 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 4: where the gator boots, especially gators in Florida, the gator 320 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 4: boots with the suit, I will say, at least here 321 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 4: isn't like that rare of a look. I just think 322 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 4: that was new for a lot of people, you know, 323 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 4: outside of Florida. But the way he wears them is 324 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 4: getting some attention in a way that I don't think 325 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 4: he anticipated. And it's because it's clear, it's clear those 326 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 4: feet aren't going all the way they end. 327 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: So what snacks for Ronda d Santis? He is d 328 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: term limited. Where do you think this goes? 329 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 4: I think he would still in his mind like to 330 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 4: run for president again one day. I think the big 331 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 4: question moving forward is going to be, is you know, 332 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 4: clearly the sort of maga Trump crowd still controls the 333 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 4: Republican base, and to what degree is he damaged to 334 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 4: himself and his name with those voters if it's possible 335 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 4: from running in So I think those are going to 336 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 4: have to be questions he's gonna have to hash out. 337 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 4: He's still got three legislative sessions left here in Florida 338 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 4: and then perhaps a long four years to figure it out. 339 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: People like to speculate on the idea that Casey may 340 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: run for governor. Is that just completely stupid or is 341 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: that like a real thing. 342 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 4: I think it's a real thing. I've always thought it 343 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 4: would be more like they should run for your Senate 344 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 4: simply because and this is just a ramp speculation, because 345 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 4: you know Tallahassee versus well, the conversation about it has 346 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 4: been out there for quite some time, especially here, So 347 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 4: I'm not just speculating, you know, without there being some 348 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 4: basis for it. But she rarely be in DC than Tallahassee. 349 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 4: But also I think most people here, I mean, I've 350 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 4: seen plenty of her speeches, and whatever the contents of 351 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 4: the speech aside, she's got more political talent than her husband. 352 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 2: Right, that's what everybody says. 353 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 4: I kind of see it that way as well. But 354 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 4: you know, she's been old many many times in potential 355 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 4: twenty twenty six over the next Minitario race here, and 356 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 4: she does quite well with Republicans, So I don't know 357 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 4: if it's much more than just sort of speculation and 358 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 4: sort of you know, chatter among you know, political observers. 359 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 4: At this point, I think it could happen, and I 360 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 4: certainly don't think it's unrealistic to talk about her think 361 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 4: that it might be a reality. 362 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 2: I hate that. Thank you so much. I hope you'll 363 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 2: come back. 364 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 4: I hope you have you back, and I enjoyed it. 365 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 3: Your Truflemov is the chief foreign affairs correspondent at the 366 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 3: Wall Street Journal and aaughter of our enemies will vanish 367 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 3: the Russian invasion and Ukraine's war on independence. 368 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics. 369 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 4: Yourself, Hi, Hi, grace to be in a show. 370 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 2: Really excited to have you. 371 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: You are the chief foreign affairs correspondent for the Wall 372 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: Street Journal. And also we both were finals for the 373 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: Pilitzer Prize. Just kidding, No, I was not. That's hilarious 374 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: speak really because now never. So let's talk about what 375 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: it's like right now in Ukraine. 376 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 5: Well, you know, the war is almost two years old 377 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 5: by now, and the miracle is that Ukraine has not collapsed. 378 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 5: Ukraine has fought back. He ukrainely reclaimed about half of 379 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 5: Atlanta rosa regionally conquered, and considering the disparacy and the 380 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 5: size and the sheer military power of the two nations, 381 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 5: it's a very unexpected outcome. You know, if you remember 382 00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 5: what was happening in the first days of the war, 383 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 5: everyone I was giving up Ukraine for dead, including the US, 384 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 5: and it hasn't died. Yes, you know, there are setbacks, 385 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 5: and yes, of course, the war's stuff and the mounting 386 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 5: casualties and the reluctance of a Western country such as 387 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 5: the US to provide more funding because of internal politics 388 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 5: is obviously contributing to the toll. 389 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 4: But Ukraine is resistant and Russia has not been able 390 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 4: to advance. 391 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: Tell me what you think. This has been such a 392 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 2: weird war in a lot of ways, like. 393 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: Things have not happened in the way that it's been 394 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: predicted again and again. Is that really because of the 395 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: strength of the Ukrainian people or is there more to 396 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: the story. 397 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 5: Well, you know, this has been really Yoya war, not 398 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 5: so much in terms of the actual wars, in terms 399 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 5: of public perceptions. So one day it was Ukraine as doomed. 400 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 5: Next day Russia is weak and is in a colossus 401 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 5: and clay Feet is going to collapse. Then oh no, 402 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 5: well Russia can steal fights. And then again, so it's 403 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 5: been kind of like this for two years. People have 404 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 5: dramatically underestimated Ukraine, its ability to its ability to function 405 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 5: in society, and its ability to fight. People have also 406 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 5: at first overestimated to Russian military might and the strength 407 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 5: of the Great Russian Army. But then they made the 408 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 5: other mistake and they you know, they just decided that 409 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 5: the Russian army is crumbling. And obviously the Russians also 410 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 5: learned from their mistakes and they have grouped and. 411 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 4: They used the time that they had from summer twenty 412 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 4: twenty two until the summer of twenty twenty three to regroup, 413 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 4: to begin to prepare. 414 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 5: And by the time Ukrainians finally received Western tanks, you know, 415 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 5: Bradley's Strikers, their parts and all the other year that 416 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 5: had been asking for for more than a year for 417 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 5: their summer offensive the twenty twenty three, you know, the 418 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 5: Russians were ready, and there was a lot more of 419 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 5: them because you had mobilized hundreds of thousands of reservists. 420 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: But part of what's happening is that the Russians are 421 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: not great fighters, right, I mean, Russia itself is having 422 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: its own sort of come to Jesus moment with the war, right, Well. 423 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 5: I mean, Russians are not bad fighters. Obviously, what we 424 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 5: have seen in this war is that the Russians are 425 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 5: ready to go and die, which is sending hundreds of 426 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 5: thousands to the semi grinder, and there's been little resistance 427 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 5: and people just obey and go and go in these 428 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 5: massive waves that eventually a cheaper result. You know, they 429 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 5: did take the city of Bahmut in the early twenty 430 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,479 Speaker 5: twenty three, you know, at the cost of tens of 431 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 5: thousands of people, but then it did take it. So 432 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 5: obviously the Russians have issues with command and control. They 433 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,719 Speaker 5: have issues with sort of modern tactics, but you know, 434 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:27,360 Speaker 5: there is a lot of them. It's a very big 435 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 5: army of a very big country, and they have managed 436 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 5: to build the military industries and to produce ammunition on 437 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 5: a scale that the West has not been able to do. 438 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 2: Right, I mean, what is it like being on the ground. 439 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: You've covered a lot of wars. I mean, is this different? 440 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: I feel like there's a sense in which you are 441 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: in Europe and that in itself is radically different than 442 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: other wars. 443 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 5: Well, yeah, I covered the wars all my perstaurant life, 444 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 5: you know, in Iraq in two thousand and three, in 445 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 5: Afghani stand for many years, you know, Liberia, you name it, 446 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 5: and it's all wars in Europe, in the Bulk, in 447 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 5: Georgia and Dream two thous and eight. But you know, 448 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 5: I was born in Ukraine. You know, I grew up 449 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 5: in Teare. My family has been there for generation since. 450 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 5: So obviously seeing invading armies bombard the streets where you 451 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 5: know you have childhood memories is completely different on the 452 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 5: sort of sigical level. You know, it's infuriating, you know, 453 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 5: how dare they? You know, like I had my first 454 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 5: kiss on the sparking on missiles, the phone. But also 455 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 5: in a way it was much simpler because most of 456 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 5: the wars I've covered have many layers of complexity, and 457 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 5: you know, neither side is one hundred percent in the 458 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 5: right usually, whereas here it was a very clear. 459 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 4: Cut moral case. You know, Ukraine hadn't done anything merridis. 460 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 5: It was invaded by Putting because of his sheer ideas 461 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 5: of imperial conquest and world domination, and Ukraine was resisting morally, 462 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 5: you know, without you know, killing civilians, without breaking in 463 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 5: the international material law and. 464 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 4: Using pretty much its own resources in the first few months. 465 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 4: In a way, it was a very black and white war. 466 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 4: It still is compared to many other complexs we're seeing now. 467 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is very black and white, right, there's a 468 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: bad guy, which it's so in some ways. It's so 469 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: different in a way because with what's happening with Israel 470 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: and past and like, it's not the same. It's not 471 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: as cut and dry, right, I mean, there's much more 472 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: nuance in that war wars there is in this one. 473 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: Can you sort of explain to our listeners what the 474 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: story is between what happened with Putin and his and 475 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,239 Speaker 1: that militia group that was part of the army, and 476 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: then he killed the head of it. And can you 477 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: just sort of explain if that did anything or affected 478 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: anything in the war. 479 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 5: Well, it certain it did because Wagner, as this mercenary 480 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 5: group known it was the most efficient part of the 481 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 5: Russian military. You know, after the Russians were outed around 482 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 5: Kiev in the first weeks of the war, the only 483 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 5: area where they could advance in the bus was the 484 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 5: area where Wagner was operating anyhow, and they brought this 485 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 5: dip from Syria from Africa. They all experienced, had best, 486 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 5: recruited the best and brightest in the regular Russian military, and. 487 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 4: Paid them a lot of money and had a lot 488 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 4: of resources. 489 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 5: And then they tried for almost a year to take 490 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 5: the city of Bachmut. They did take it, and they lost, 491 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 5: according to Hubhani, Pregosian leader of Wagner, you know, upwards 492 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 5: of thirty thousand men, so pretty much they lost everything. 493 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 5: And that that really caused this attempt at a pouch, 494 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 5: after which it survived, Wagner was disbanded, Pregaussian died in 495 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 5: a mysterious playing crash. 496 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 4: Bottom line is that no longer exists as a credible 497 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 4: military force, and he credit doesn't have to fear it. 498 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: Right, do you think that pregosion would have otherwise sort 499 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: of taken over for Putin? I mean, do you think 500 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: he was making a play that way? 501 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 5: Well, he was looking at play, but I don't think 502 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 5: he was a man who thought things through necessarily. He 503 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 5: was himself traumatized by spending a week's month and the 504 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 5: bombardment in Bafmut. He didn't seem to have a clear plan, 505 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 5: and he was counting on support within the Russian military. 506 00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 4: They didn't come through at the end. 507 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 5: But what he spoke about the ideas, he voiced our 508 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 5: ideas that are shared by many in the Russian military. 509 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 5: And he was complaining about how the war was not 510 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 5: waged in a correct way. It had been prepared and 511 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 5: it was pointless, he said in his very last speech 512 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 5: before the attempted She said that Zelenski was offering us 513 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 5: peace and Putin could have just come down from the 514 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 5: Olympus and talked, but Putting refused the job. To Zolanski 515 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 5: apuentil the invasion. 516 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: It feels like Putin has that this has really tested 517 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: his I don't even want to say presidency because he's 518 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: not really a president, but has threatened his rule in 519 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: a way. Other events happened. Do you think that's right? 520 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: And if so, can you talk about that? 521 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,199 Speaker 5: Well, I mean what happened is that, you know, the 522 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 5: war definitely backfires and putting the war is painful for 523 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 5: the Russian side, to the Russian economy and the war 524 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 5: everybody acknowledges in Russia and didn't go to plant I 525 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 5: mean the planet was to take key injuries. 526 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 4: And so now he's stuck with it. He stuck with 527 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 4: the war. He's stuck with the Mountain death Tollhundreds of 528 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 4: thousands of Russian soldiers were killed or maimed on the 529 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 4: battlefield and you know many more will be in coming month. 530 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 4: And so you know, he's in a way a hostage 531 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 4: of the situation because he cannot end the war without 532 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 4: losing face and perhaps losing power. And so there we 533 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 4: are in this and you know, his goals and the 534 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 4: war haven't changed. You know, he still wants to take 535 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 4: all of Ukraine and maybe. 536 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 5: March forward, and he's banking on the fact that the 537 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 5: US and other Western nations will tire of supporting Ukraine 538 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 5: military and financially and he will prevail. And it's not 539 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 5: a completely unrealistic line of thinking, especially if President Trump. 540 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,479 Speaker 4: Wins elections in the US and you know, he hasn't 541 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 4: indicated great nudism for spending as a billions of dollars 542 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 4: in Ukraine. 543 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,479 Speaker 1: It feels very much like the Republican Party is going 544 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: to work quite hard to make sure that Ukraine doesn't 545 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: get any money. Are Europeans willing to backstop it? It 546 00:25:54,400 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: feels like geographically, if Putin rolls through Ukraine and Poland 547 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: is next, and this is much bigger danger to Europe. 548 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 2: I mean, it's certainly danger to all of us. 549 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: But I mean, do you think that Europe or backstops 550 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: some of those can they? 551 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 2: Are they even capable? 552 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, first of all, I mean, let's see 553 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 4: what happens with the Republican Party. You know, they're still 554 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 4: negotiating some sort of package that includes border security. You know, 555 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 4: the Republicans in the Senate for sure haven't abandoned Ukraine 556 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 4: just yet. If banks do collapse and negotiations should studied 557 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 4: anywhere and the US plane is not forthcoming, Europe of 558 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 4: course is trying to step in, and especially the Germans 559 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,719 Speaker 4: because they view this as a direct threat to their 560 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 4: own national security. You know, better have an ocean given 561 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 4: them in Russia. But this is capacity. You know, most 562 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 4: of the military eight I mean from the US is 563 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 4: coming from the US because the US has the stop 564 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 4: piles of feminition, fighting vehicles, tanks and the industries that 565 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 4: may call it stuff that blows up. The Europeans don't 566 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 4: and will take them a few years to build up 567 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 4: that capacity. So that is the big bottleneck there right exactly. 568 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 1: I mean, doesn't it seem strange to you that you 569 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: have one political party that has turned so radically? I mean, 570 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: isn't it sort of surprising you because like I grew 571 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: up with a Republican party that was much more interested 572 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: in nation building if nothing else. 573 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I guess on one hand, you do 574 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,360 Speaker 4: have the blowback from all his experiments in your rock 575 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 4: and elsewhere. They didn't go exactly to plan. 576 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 5: But on the end, let's also look at three alasy 577 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 5: not the entire Republican parties anti Ukrainian that very allowed 578 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 5: to voices on the fringes, but Republican leaders in the 579 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 5: House and in the Senate and still say they will 580 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 5: not allow Putting to win. 581 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 4: They will support Ukraine at least verybody. The support is 582 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 4: still there, so let's see that translates into votes the 583 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 4: coming weeks and month you. 584 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: Were in Afghanistan, you covered that Taliban takeover that sort 585 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: of held up is when the shit goes really wrong, 586 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: and Zelenski is held up as sort of the leader 587 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 1: when things go right. Do you think that's true or 588 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: do you think that's a big over simplification And can 589 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: you explain to us a little bit about that. 590 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 5: Well, you know, I wasn't cobble on that. The cable 591 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 5: fell and it was very sudden, you know. The night 592 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 5: before the Avid president ash from Ghani inspected the troops, 593 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 5: the were ready to defend it, and by noon he 594 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 5: was in helicopter flying away and the city just collapsed 595 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 5: in front of my eyes. The Taliban were in my 596 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 5: hotel by the afternoon. So while and I was in 597 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 5: Kiev when the warm again, And my fear then was, 598 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 5: you know, what if Sardanski decides to do the same, 599 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,919 Speaker 5: What if he decides to fly away and he was offered, 600 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 5: you know what where uders were calling him and tell him, 601 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 5: you know, come to London, set up a government in exile, 602 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 5: and he said no, and That's why Ukraine held and 603 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 5: that courage of refusing to think about his own personal 604 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 5: safety and thinking about the country was a very big 605 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 5: element of why Ukraine still stands as a sobeern nation. 606 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 5: I think a big difference between Afghanistan and Ukrainians. But 607 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 5: Asad was a civil war. It was the civil war. 608 00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 5: The Taliban our representative of a large proportion of the 609 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 5: Augden people, not the majority necessarily, but still a significant 610 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 5: part of the population, and the government was seen as 611 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 5: an instrument of the foreign invaders. In Ukraine is the opposite. 612 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 5: You know, you have a government that was elected. You know, 613 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 5: Slanski got more than seventy five percent of the vote 614 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 5: facing for invasion, and the Americans were nowhere to be 615 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 5: seen when the war started. If you remember, SAMs was closed, 616 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 5: all personnel were withdrawn from Kiev, and there was very 617 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 5: little American military coming at the time. You know, Ukraine 618 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 5: fought for its independence in the first month of the 619 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 5: war using largely its own weapons, Soviet standard weapons. 620 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 2: Right. 621 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: I just want to get back to Afghanistan for a second. 622 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: Do you think that there were failures that America could 623 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: have seen earlier with Afghanistan? 624 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 2: I mean, I read so much coverage about it. 625 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: It just feels like we don't get the whole story 626 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: with Afghanistan. 627 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 5: Well, I mean, Afghanistan is a very long complex and 628 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 5: the US was started two decades. If you were asking 629 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 5: me what was the main failure, I think the main 630 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 5: failure was in the very beginning, after the US got 631 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 5: rid of al Qaeda in Afghanistan and got rid of 632 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 5: the Taliban regime, the tailor band asks to be included, 633 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 5: seeing some sort of you know, future unity system, and 634 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 5: President Karzai was backing that, but instead the US decided 635 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 5: to go after them and you know, detain what our 636 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 5: taliban that could find and send them to go in 637 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 5: tannam Obay, and that really gave birth insurgency that doomed 638 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 5: the entire nation building effort because you could really exclude this, 639 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 5: you know, significant political force from the future of the country. 640 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 4: We don't have that problem in Ukraine. 641 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. So interesting. 642 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: We're out of time, but I really appreciate you, and 643 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: I hope we can talk again. 644 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 4: Absolutely, it was great stalk to you. 645 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 2: That's it for. 646 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: This episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday 647 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: and Friday to hear the best minds in politics makes sense. 648 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 2: Of all this chaos. 649 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to 650 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: a friend and keep the conversation going. 651 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 2: And again, thanks for listening.