1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. I'm very pleased to 2 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: walk as my guest, my good friend, and somebody I've 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: worked with, I think for thirty years. He is the 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: best selling author of biographies of Elon Musk, Jennifer Dudna, 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: Leonardo da Vinci, Steve Jobs, Benjamin Franklin, Albert Einstein. He's 6 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: a professor of history at Tulane and was the CEO 7 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: of the Aspen Institute, the chair of CNN, and the 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: editor of Time magazine. And he was awarded the National 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,919 Speaker 1: Humanities Medal in twenty twenty three. I'm really delighted that 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: he's joining me today to discuss his new book, a 11 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller, The Greatest Sentence ever written, which 12 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: is so appropriate for this time as we look at 13 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary. This is a book 14 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: that should be central to how we approach this It 15 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: takes readers on a fascinating deep dive into the creation 16 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: of one of history's most powerful sentences. Quote. We hold 17 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: these truths to be self evident, that all men are 18 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with 19 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: certain unfiable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and 20 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: the pursuit of happiness. Quarter. Welcome and thank you in 21 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: the middle of your business schedule for joining me again 22 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: on news World. 23 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 2: You know it's great to be with you, and I 24 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 2: know how much of a historian you are like me. 25 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 2: You taught history at Tulane, and you know the importance 26 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 2: of a sentence like that of being our mission statement 27 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 2: as we in our two hundred and fiftieth year. 28 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: Your timing could hardly be better. And it's such a 29 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: break from the biographies that you've been doing. And yet 30 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: when I read it, I was fascinated with how you 31 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: took it apart. What made you decide to take this 32 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: one sentence and turn it into a book. 33 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 2: I think it's important that we celebrate our two hundred 34 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 2: and fiftieth in a way that unifies us and brings 35 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 2: us together rather than divides us, because we've had such 36 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 2: a poisonous period in our politics. Well, we're so divided, 37 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 2: and sometimes history has been used to divide us. I 38 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 2: picked this topic because we're going into the two hundred 39 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 2: and fiftieth and I don't think we've made enough plans 40 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: to say, how can we use this as a mechanism 41 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 2: for understanding what our common values are you? And I 42 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: can remember after the horrible periods of Vietnam and Watergate 43 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 2: and the assassinations of Kennedy's and Kings and the riots, 44 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: we came together under Gerald Ford to do the bi centennial. 45 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: We need to get a movement going to say let's 46 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 2: do that again for the two fiftieth. 47 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: This is really the year to celebrate patriotism and to 48 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: have everybody, whatever your ideology or your background, they have 49 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: everybody understand that at its heart America is a romantic 50 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: idea and that patriotism is what binds us together. And 51 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: I think this book is a real contribution. But it 52 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: fascinates me because you know, you can approach this from 53 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: one hundred angles. You decided to dive in, go past 54 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: everything else, and pick one sentence. How did that come 55 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: to you? 56 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 2: Well, when I was doing Benjamin Franklin about twenty years ago, 57 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: I noticed that he had done an edit of the 58 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 2: first draft of the Declaration of Independence that Jefferson wrote 59 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: in late June of seventeen seventy six. And that edit 60 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 2: was totally fascinating, especially of what I think of as 61 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 2: the mission statement, the aspiration statement of our country. And 62 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: Jefferson had written, we hold these truths to be sacred, 63 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: And there's Franklin's printer spin crossing out sacred in putting 64 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 2: self evidence. He wanted to say our rights come from rationality, 65 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: not that dictates of religion. But the sentence goes on 66 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 2: to talk about being endowed with rights and John Adams 67 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 2: rights endowed by their creator with rights. And so I 68 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 2: was amazed at how just in crafting this sentence that 69 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 2: becomes our creed is a nation. They were balancing things, 70 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: and you've talked about we need to all come together 71 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 2: in times of patriotism, especially like this. It's not simply 72 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: about everybody being centrist. You have a very strong ideology, 73 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 2: but you work in a civil way with people with 74 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: different ideologies. We have to regain that ability to work 75 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 2: across different ideologies. But saying well one nation, that sentence 76 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 2: and its editing stuck with me for twenty years, and 77 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 2: I said, if we parse this sentence, what do we 78 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 2: mean by we, what do we mean by created equal? 79 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 2: What do we mean by the suit of happiness? Then 80 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: the sentence wouldn't be just like something we chant along 81 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 2: without thinking about it, like him or prayer we've said 82 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 2: too much in church or synagogue. But we could think 83 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 2: about the deep, profound meaning of this beautiful sentence. 84 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: By the way, put in a brief plug. My daughter, 85 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: Jackie Cushman, chairs the Commission on John Adams. She was 86 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: thrilled by your book. In fact, she was waiting. We 87 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: did FaceTime earlier today and she was waving it. I'd 88 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: be I said, I was going to talk to you 89 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:31,799 Speaker 1: later other day. 90 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 2: Well, you know, Congress created in June of seventy six 91 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 2: a committee to declare why we're having the revolution, And 92 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 2: with all due respect to your time as speakership, it 93 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: maybe the last time Congress created a really good committee. 94 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 2: It's got John Adams, Ben Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson. 95 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: It's pretty hard to argue that any other three people 96 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: would outweigh them in terms of wisdom and knowledge. But 97 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: I'm curious you take this sentence and you get us 98 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: to understand I think this process thing is important. This 99 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: wasn't automatically coming out of a rock or lightning. These 100 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: were three really smart people who had thought about this 101 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: for a long time, and they're evolving even in writing 102 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: this one sentence. They're evolving what is going to become America? 103 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: And it takes conversation, it takes compromise, it takes creativity. 104 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: And I think that's part of what people don't understand, 105 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: that the legislative political process inevitably has to involve people 106 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: finding a common ground to do this stuff. But I 107 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: think your experience in going through this and looking at 108 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: it has to have in a sense, stunned you with 109 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: just how really wise these people were, how remarkable we 110 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: were to have them. 111 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: What they understood was the concept of balance, which is 112 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 2: that they're contending forces, contending values that we have to 113 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 2: deal with. And they were scientists. Ben Franklin was the 114 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 2: best experimental scientist of the time. Jefferson was a great scientist, 115 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 2: and they studied Newton and the idea that forces can 116 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 2: be contending, but you find an equilibrium. Just as I 117 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 2: said about them putting in truth being self evident, but 118 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 2: putting in creator. That's creating a balance between the role 119 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 2: of divine providence and the role of rationality. Ben Franklin 120 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 2: said at the time of the Constitution, compromisers may not 121 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 2: make great heroes, but they do make great democracies. So 122 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: we have to learn how to balance our contending values. 123 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 2: The sentence shows us how to do it because it's 124 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 2: a living, breathing sentence. It's something we have to aspire 125 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 2: to each new generation to make it more true. 126 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: There's Gary Willis who makes the argument that what Lincoln 127 00:07:55,160 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: does is resurrects the Declaration, which in many ways had 128 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: been surpassed by the Constitution as the central organizing document. 129 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: And Lincoln goes back and basically re educates us into 130 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: the moral framework of the founding Fathers and the degree 131 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: to which this was really a call to an astonishingly 132 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: different world than the world. 133 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 2: And Gary Wills does it very well, many many years ago, 134 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: because what happens four score and seven years after they 135 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 2: write that sentence. Lincoln invokes it at the Gettysburg Cemetery 136 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 2: and he said, we created a new type of nation, 137 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 2: conceived in liberty and dedicated the proposition that all men 138 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: are created equal. Well, it wasn't actually true at the 139 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: time of that sentence. Jefferson writes it. He's enslaving four 140 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 2: hundred people. But what Lincoln is doing on that battlefield 141 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 2: cemetery is using the sentence as a forcing mechanism, because 142 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,199 Speaker 2: he's bare carrying more than seven thousand people who had 143 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 2: died to make that sentence more true. And that's the 144 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 2: arc of American history is each generation saying can we 145 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 2: get closer to that? 146 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: Aspiration fits exactly the concern you're expressing about coming together 147 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 1: as patriots. Again, could you point out that the declaration's 148 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: opening word we reappear as in the Constitution as we 149 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: the people. In your mind, what was the significance of 150 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: this dual recognition of the word wei? 151 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 3: That is so crucial. 152 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 2: That's the most important word there, Because up until that time, 153 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 2: nations on Earth were formed by the divine right of 154 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 2: kings or the governance came from conquerors or swords. What 155 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 2: they did is they pick up the notion of social 156 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 2: contract theory, which I think you taught and you know 157 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 2: so well it comes from Hobbes and John Locke others, 158 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 2: which is a true governance of society comes from a 159 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 2: social contract. Will we all agree to enter into a government, 160 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 2: give up some of our rights in order to have 161 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 2: a civil society. No nation had been created that way 162 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: as a constitutional, democratic republic that was based on the 163 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 2: consent of the govern So when they start we hold 164 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: these truths, or eleven years later, when they say we 165 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 2: the people, we doesn't just mean fifty or sixty people 166 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 2: hanging around in Philadelphia. It means a social contract that 167 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 2: was the basis for a moral, governing society. 168 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: Wasn't this a universalistic document. It's not actually aimed at 169 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: the Americans. It is defining for the Americans a universal truth. 170 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 2: It's defining for the world because in the previous sentence, 171 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 2: the first sentence, it says, with a decent respect for 172 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 2: the opinions of mankind, they're explaining how we're creating a 173 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 2: new type of nation. And back then we were the 174 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:23,959 Speaker 2: only one that. 175 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 3: Was that way. 176 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 2: But over the course of two hundred years or so, 177 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 2: most nations on Earth began to resemble this notion where 178 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 2: we defend individual rights, the rights of liberty of each individual, 179 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 2: and yet we come together in a civil society to 180 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 2: govern ourselves as a representative democracy. 181 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 1: You've covered the news. You've had remarkable exposure to most 182 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: of the major media that we've used in our lifetime 183 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: to communicate the news. How do we get the country 184 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: to understanding these kind of simple, basic truths. This isn't 185 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: exactly TikTok, it's not even X or truth social it's 186 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: not the daily news put out in three minute bites 187 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: but yet somehow this sentence and the document that is 188 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: in is at the very core of whether or not 189 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: this country. 190 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: Will survive precisely. That's why I wrote it. That's why 191 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 2: I think our two hundred and fiftieth is a great opportunity. 192 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 2: I worry that we're not really using it. I know, 193 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 2: back when you were in government, we probably would have 194 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 2: had a bi centennial commission, as we did fifty years ago, 195 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 2: that were people of all parties and community leaders, and 196 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 2: we'd have bi centennial moments on TV and tall ships 197 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 2: in our ports and fireworks. 198 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 3: I think we need. 199 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 2: To quickly get movie so that we use this two 200 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 2: hundred and fiftieth birthday as our nation to reassert the 201 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 2: patriotism that most of us feel, to reassert the values 202 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 2: that underlie our nation, and those values are embodied in 203 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 2: the sentence. 204 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:10,719 Speaker 3: But I'm hoping many people can do it. You can 205 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 3: do it. 206 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 2: You're doing it on this podcast, John Meacha, my friend 207 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 2: is doing it bringing out a book. Ken Burns is 208 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 2: doing it by bringing out a documentary. I don't think Washington, 209 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 2: the government right now, is paying much attention to it. 210 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 2: I'm trying to get the National Archives to take the 211 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 2: first draft of the Declaration, which isn't the Library of 212 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: Congress and display them together, and that can all be 213 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 2: a way that each of us in each community. 214 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 3: I've gone around. I just came back from Dallas. 215 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 2: I've been in San Antonio and Austin and then Nashville. 216 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: I'm trying to encourage each community to say, how are 217 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: we going to celebrate. 218 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 3: Who we are as a nation for our big birthday. 219 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: I felt that it almost has to be looking to 220 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: the past and looking into the future. I mean, while 221 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: we're want to celebrate two hundred and fifty years, we 222 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: also want to say and what we have learned from 223 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: that gives us a chance to create an even better 224 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty years. 225 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 2: Especially coming out of what I think is our biggest 226 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 2: problem today, which is the polarization that's been caused by 227 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 2: everything from social media and talk radio to the way 228 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 2: we do our politics. How are we going to come 229 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 2: out of this very divisive period which is similar to 230 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 2: the one we went through a little bit more than 231 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 2: fifty years ago with Vietnam, Watergate and the assassinations. And 232 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 2: we can remember the lines when they sign that declaration. 233 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 2: John Hancock says, as he puts his big signature on it. 234 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 2: With all the forces contending to divide us, how do 235 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 2: we hang together? And Franklin, who's very witty, refers to 236 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 2: what's going to happen to him if they don't do it. 237 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 2: He said, yes, assuredly, we must all hang together, or 238 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 2: must assuredly we'll all hang separately. How do we use 239 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: this event to take some of the poison out of 240 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 2: our discourse and say, get rid of that poison that 241 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 2: comes from social media sometimes in the politics, the politicians 242 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 2: who are trying to enrage us and play on our resentments. 243 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 2: Let's all remember when one nation with a really great 244 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 2: mission statement, and that's the Declaration, how. 245 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: Do you explain to people when they do raise the 246 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: legitimate fact that for example, here's Jefferson writing about freedom 247 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: and about being given to us by our creator, Well 248 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: he does own slaves. 249 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is the thing we have to 250 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 2: wrestle with American history, and we have to look at 251 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 2: the narrative of the history, the arc of the history, 252 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 2: because no, that sentence was not actually true when they 253 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 2: wrote it, and Jefferson knew it, as you know. 254 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 3: He writes in the. 255 00:15:55,120 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 2: Declaration a lot of words decrying slavery and they have 256 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: to take it out in order that Southern votes. And yes, 257 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: people are complicated. I've written about Elon Musk, I've written 258 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 2: about Steve Jobs. I've written about people, and Shakespeare teaches 259 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 2: us people are complex. Even our heroes have dark strands. 260 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 2: Henry the Fifth kills all the prisoners from France. So 261 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 2: we have to realize that we weren't born perfect, but 262 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 2: we were given an aspirational statement. And so whether it's 263 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 2: at Gettysburg when Lincoln uses that statement to move forward 264 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 2: so that we can end slavery, or whether it's in 265 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 2: the nineteen twenties when the suffragettes use that statement, this 266 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 2: sentence to move us forward to women get to be 267 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: included in all manner created equal. We have to look 268 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 2: at the narrative of history, how in fits and start. 269 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 2: Sometimes we go forward, sometimes we go back. But the 270 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 2: general arc of history, as Thaddeus Stevens, the Abolitionist said, 271 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 2: and doctor King quoted him as saying, the arc of 272 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 2: history bends towards justice, but only if we bend it. 273 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: And that's what this sentence helps us to do. 274 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: Hopefully this book will help create a dialogue. People have 275 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: got to come out of their shells, and instead of 276 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: just yelling things at each other, they have to have 277 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: a genuine mutual curiosity and getting them I think to 278 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: take seriously the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary and to 279 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,719 Speaker 1: ask why has this system been so amazing? Why has 280 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 1: it been able to absorb so many different people? Why 281 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: has it been possible for people to rise in ways 282 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: that would have been impossible in much of the world. 283 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: I think that this kind of book we get people 284 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: to slow down and realize the folks who put this 285 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: together were very wise, and they had spent a long 286 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: time thinking about it, and they had studied a lot 287 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 1: of history. And if we will sort of steal from 288 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: their wisdom, we can have a dramatically better country. 289 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 3: Right, we all have to dedicate ourselves to it. 290 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 2: You've done a lot of documentaries, documentaries about what makes 291 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 2: America work, whether it's a documentary is about immigration, or 292 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 2: about our founding or about our history. I'm so glad 293 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: you're saying that this is this opportunity to get everybody 294 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: discussing it in a civil way, because despite all of 295 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 2: our divides, I think most Americans, eighty percent of Americans 296 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 2: can basically agree on the fundamental values, even if they 297 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 2: disagree on how to approach it, and they can have 298 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 2: civil discussion about what's in commons? What do we share 299 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 2: in commons? And I write about common ground in the 300 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 2: book because that's what this sentence is. But common ground 301 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 2: is also the goods and services that we keep in commons, 302 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 2: whether it be having a good K through twelve education system, 303 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 2: or good libraries, or fire or police protection. And then 304 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 2: we have to debate on the edges how much should 305 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 2: healthcare be in the commons? 306 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 3: Like that? 307 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 2: Well, those are good debates to have. But if you 308 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 2: frame it the way the founders did, as this is 309 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 2: a question of what we want to have in commons, 310 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 2: then I think our debates could be more civil and 311 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 2: we could show the balance and wisdom that they showed. 312 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: So I have to ask you, you know so many 313 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 1: different things, and you have sort of had a knack 314 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: of picking very interesting people to I biographies about it, 315 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 1: and given the authoritative and deep books that you write, 316 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: in order to deal with these brilliant people, you've had 317 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: to learn an enormous amount. Is there any common lesson 318 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: or common observation as you look back on all these 319 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: personalities that you've now spent your life with. 320 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 2: Yes, it's not the ability to be smart, because you 321 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 2: and I know a lot of smart people, they often 322 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 2: don't amount to much. It's the ability to think out 323 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 2: of the box, to be creative, to be imaginative, to 324 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 2: do things at AI won't do. And that's what Einstein does. 325 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 2: He's sitting there. Anything's out of the box that maybe 326 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 2: time is relative depending on your state of motion or 327 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 2: Elon must does. 328 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: So. 329 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 2: I think that ability to have a reality distortion field, 330 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 2: to think different, as Steve Jobs said, that is what 331 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 2: humans bring to it is this intuitive creativity that allows 332 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: you to just come with an out of the box idea. Leonardo, 333 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 2: one of my other favorite subjects, did it well. And 334 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: to get back to the greatest sentence ever written, that's 335 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 2: what Ben Franklin, when I was writing his biography talk 336 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 2: about innovation. Look, rocket ships that can land on their 337 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 2: own platform, or iPods, those are innovations. But the greatest 338 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: innovation ever is to take the social contract theory and 339 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 2: to create a democratic republic that depends on we the people. 340 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 2: And that innovation is what we're going to be celebrating 341 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 2: next year. 342 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think in that sense, if you think of 343 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 1: America as an invention. 344 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 3: Bingo, exactly right. 345 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: You know, you begin to realize what an astonishing gift 346 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: we've been given, you know, the yuk and I, our children, 347 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: our grandchildren, our friends and neighbors have been given this 348 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: gift of self government, and this gift of mutual acceptance 349 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: that our rights come from a divine basis, can't be 350 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: taken away by politicians, by lobbyists, by bureaucrats, by billionaires, 351 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: because every single person of every background has been endowed 352 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: by their creator. And of course what you do in 353 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: this book is you take us deep into this miraculous 354 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: belief that these handful of extraordinary people put together in 355 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: a single document that's available to anybody on the entire planet. 356 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: I think we should all read the declaration often in 357 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 2: this coming year, and we should all read this particular 358 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 2: sentence and think of the profound wisdom in it, because, 359 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 2: as I said, they weren't necessarily just smart. They were innovative. 360 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 2: They realized they could film a new type of government, 361 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 2: and they were wise, which is what you mentioned earlier 362 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 2: in the show, meaning even though they had strong beliefs, 363 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 2: they knew how to do the balances that were necessary 364 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: to keep a democratic republic alive, and I think we've 365 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 2: lost a lot of their talent of balance, of tolerance, 366 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 2: of respect of civility. Your show is about that, Our 367 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 2: country is about that. And I'll say one thing about 368 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 2: Benjamin Franklin near the inn now we talk about being 369 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 2: a nation of respect for individual rights. During his lifetime, 370 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 2: Benjamin Franklin donated to the building fund of each and 371 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 2: every church built in Philadelphia. And at one point they 372 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 2: were creating a new hall for preachers that were coming 373 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 2: around from the First Great Awakening, and he wrote the 374 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 2: fundraising document he said, even if the muff Tie of 375 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 2: Constantinople were to send somebody to teach us Islam and 376 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 2: about the prophet Mohammed, we should listen and we might learn. 377 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 2: And on his deathbed, he's the largest individual contributor to 378 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 2: the congregation Mick the israel For Synagogue in Philadelphia. So 379 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 2: when he dies, instead of his minister accompany his casket 380 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 2: to the grave, all thirty five ministers, preachers and priests 381 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 2: link arms with the Rabbi of the Jews and march 382 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 2: with him to the grave. That's the type of civil society, 383 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 2: that's the type of respect for individual liberty. They were 384 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 2: creating back then, and that's what next year, in our 385 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 2: two hundred and fiftieth we have to remember, we're still 386 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 2: trying to hang on to today. 387 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: You have done an extraordinary civic service by writing this, 388 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: and I hesitate to come down from the moral high ground, 389 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: but I can't resist. Do you have a new book, 390 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: come mined? 391 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 3: I actually do. 392 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 2: I love science, I love invention and how science helps humanity, 393 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 2: and I'm doing a book now. I'm totally immersed in 394 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 2: on Marie Curie because she is the only person to 395 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 2: win the Nobel in two different sciences, physics and chemistry. 396 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 2: She basically shows that physics and chemistry are actually the same. 397 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 2: And I'm going through all of her notebooks to find 398 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 2: out exactly how did she make the leaps of the 399 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 2: imagination and then how did she apply it. She comes 400 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 2: up with the notion of radioi activity, and we now 401 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,959 Speaker 2: use it to cure cancer and of course for power 402 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 2: and weapons, so that notion of moving from theory into practice, 403 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,120 Speaker 2: she and Einstein set the stage for the twentieth century. 404 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:15,479 Speaker 3: I'm doing her next. 405 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: That's amazing. I look forward and hope you'll come back 406 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: and help educate us even more. But in the interim, 407 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: I just want to remind everyone that the greatest sentence 408 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: ever written is available now in Amazon, in bookstores everywhere. 409 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: It's already a New York Times bestseller. It's a perfect 410 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: set piece, I think for entering into the two hundred 411 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 1: and fiftieth birthday. And by the way, I want to 412 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: tell folks, you will be at Politics and Prose the 413 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: bookstore in Washington on December seventh. You'll be at Melbour's 414 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: in New Orleans on December twelfth. So anybody's looking for 415 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 1: an amazing holiday gift for friends or family, I encourage 416 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: them to come and see you and buy several copies. 417 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: And if they can't get to the two bookstores, go 418 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: to one of the online places. But knowing you as 419 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: a genuine honor. 420 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 2: Hey, I feel the same back at you. Thank you 421 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 2: everything over so many years, Nut. 422 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: I look forward to it. I appreciate very much your 423 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: joining me today. 424 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 3: Thank you, and happy birthday to our country. 425 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guests. Walter Isaac Summer Newtsworld is 426 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: produced by Ganingrish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer 427 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork 428 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 1: for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks 429 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,959 Speaker 1: to the team of Gaingrish three sixty. If you've been 430 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: enjoying Nuts World, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts 431 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: and both rate us with five stars and give us 432 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: a review so others can learn what it's all about. 433 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: Join me on subseet at Gingrich three sixty dot net. 434 00:26:48,600 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 1: I'm Nut Gingrich. This is newts World.