WEBVTT - Asheville's Crackdown on Mutual Aid Part 1 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:07.920 Hi everyone, it could happen here and today it's near 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:10.119 and myself and we're doing two interviews, which is going 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:13.120 to split over two different episodes. What we're talking about 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.760 is a case in Ashua, North Carolina where a group 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:18.400 of people doing mutual aid work with and How's people 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:22.079 have been charged with felony littering. Now we're going to 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:24.600 get a little bit in the episode into what felony 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:28.640 littering is. Unfortunately, I don't think any of us can 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:31.120 explain why that exists as a charge for individuals and 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:35.000 not for BP or SHELL or something, but such as 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:37.839 a state. And so in the first episode, we're going 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:39.720 to talk to Sarah. Sarah is one of the people 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:42.919 facing these felony littering charges. Sarah's also been banned from 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:45.480 parks in Nashville and which we're going to talk about. 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:49.120 So Sarah will explain a little bit of the process 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:51.000 that led up to those felony littering charges, what the 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:54.280 situations like in Asheville for mutual Aid in front How's people. 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:57.800 And then we're going to talk to Meniba tomorrow. Maniba 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:00.520 is one of the lawyers at the ACLU, and she 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.080 will explain a little bit of the legal background to 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:06.119 the case and what is sort of the way that 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:09.160 the a CEOU is helping these people oppose the ban. 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:13.080 So we'll have two separate episodes, but we actually recorded 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:14.680 them in a different order, So you're going to hear 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.640 Sarah maybe referring to some stuff Maniva said, and Maniva 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:19.600 saying Sarah will say some stuff. Just know that we 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.080 recorded Mani the first because she had a pressing time commitment, 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:24.800 but we felt that Sarah's interview gives you a better 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:28.360 set up for listening to many of the interview tomorrow. Okay, 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.200 hope you enjoy. We're going to start out talking to Sarah. 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:34.119 He's one of the people who is a quote unquote 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:41.279 problem child in Asheville. We can yeah, yeah, okay, Sarah, 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:43.240 did like to introduce yourself and tell us where you're 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:49.320 a problem child? Yeah, my name is Sarah Norris. Um. 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:51.880 It's so funny to be called something like a problem 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:54.080 child because I'm mostly like what I am as a 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:57.800 mom of a little kid. I'm a social work student, 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:06.320 like I am a career educator, um. And I am also, yeah, 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:11.639 one of sixteen local organizers who who has been facing 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:17.119 for almost the last year felony littering charges in conjunction 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:24.359 with December twenty one. December twenty twenty one art spaced protest. Yeah, 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.960 I'm sorry, did this bizarre thing has happened to you? Obviously, 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:32.000 like on the face fit felines, felonines ring is a 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:35.720 bizarre charge, and the fact that you are banned from 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:39.919 parks is also very weird. Alright, So let's maybe start 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.440 off with, like the situations before this, what were you 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:46.120 what we were doing in the parks that led to 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:50.840 you being deemed unsuitable for parks? Gosh, no way, you'd 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:53.040 have to ask those who deemed who so deemed us? 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:56.280 But I can talk about what I did in parks 0:02:56.320 --> 0:03:00.960 for the year prior to being banned, and that's I 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:06.480 was part of a collective whom who at the beginning 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:11.440 of the pandemic um did like six times a week meals, coffee, 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:15.440 gear distribution in parks. Um. By the time I came 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:21.840 around and started participating in these in these food sharings, 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:25.600 in these community gatherings, UM, we were at like two 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:29.799 or three times a week. And UM, really, what the 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:34.320 way I spent my time in parks was Saturdays and Sundays. 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:42.480 I brought my daughter to Aston Park and we brought 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:45.560 food with us, gear with us, art supplies with us, 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:48.560 or nothing with us. We just showed up as us 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:57.520 and we hung out and we distributed food, tents, packs, socks, toothbrushes, 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.920 really whatever we could get our hands on. And towards 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:05.000 the end of the year we got a little bookshelf 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:08.680 and uh we were we were in charge of bringing 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:11.920 books UM on this like little white plastic shelf and 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.640 like talking to people about what they most wanted and 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:16.400 see if they can match them up with whatever we 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:20.159 randomly had. UM. It was really like sitting in the 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:25.560 sunshine and making sure the coffee thing was full. Um. 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:29.080 And mostly just talking to people, people who were run house, 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:32.320 people who are housed, people who walked by and were like, 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:35.920 what's this? What's this picnic? Why is everybody like using 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.120 glitter glue? Like, oh, because there's a five year old 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.600 and that's what we do. UM. So so that's what 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:47.040 mostly I did in Parks, UM. And this is this 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:52.160 this activity, um isn't the context of a city. Who 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:57.120 I think in twenty twenty one, UM, I think we 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:01.520 know there were at least twenty ones weeps of homeless 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:09.040 encampments UM and a sweep like that name for some 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:13.040 of us, really connotes violence, but I think it's important 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:17.159 to name how violent those are. UM. A camp sweep 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:21.599 means that folks have to leave the place where they've 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:28.200 been living, and very often their belongings are then considered 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:34.200 to be trash, are bulldozed over, are are at a 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:38.000 minimum lost to them. And this had happened over and 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:42.080 over again in the city of Asheville. And yeah, there's 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:49.120 a way that that being in the park weekly felt 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:52.039 like a thing that happened in Ashville that was the 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:55.320 opposite of feats, that was like we're here, We're all 0:05:55.360 --> 0:06:01.640 here together, like here we are UM. And so the 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:07.320 protest itself around which in the context of which like 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:14.440 these arrests have come, happened in December and it was 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:18.800 an arts based protest and was really about was in 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:24.640 favor of sanctuary camping in the city of Ashville with 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:30.560 sanitation services. That was the point of it. And there 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:34.440 were like kind of standard protest related events on or sorry, 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:39.560 arrests on Christmas night. So that's what UM Ashville police did. 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:43.599 And I think it's important just to note that there 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:47.800 were not unhoused folks evicted that night on Christmas night, 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.479 and no one who was there was pretending to be 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:56.520 unhoused and was arrested. That's a strange narrative that the 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.119 City of Asheville Police Department has set in open court. 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:04.880 But there were standard sort of like misdemeanor trespass resisting 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:11.600 officer arrest that night, including of journalists, and then these 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:15.280 felony littering cases came much later and in a kind 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.440 of a different context. But that's what that's what happened 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:24.400 around Christmas. Okay, yeah, it's already pretty weird, but I think, yeah, 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:29.280 it gets waited. Yeah, yeah, So particularly if you were 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:34.640 not arrested, then I went home and chrismusy stuff, and 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:38.200 then at some point, well a letter comes to your 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:42.400 doors saying that you've been charged with like felony littering. 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:49.720 So my own experience, um, was that people organizers in 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.320 the mutually collective that I'm part of, who had been 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.559 showing up in the parks week after week distributing food 0:07:56.560 --> 0:08:03.160 and gear, started getting arrested in mid January. For um, 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.800 what we learned was something you could be arrested for, 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:11.280 which was felony littering and or aiding into and a 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:18.880 betting felony littering, which like honestly exactly and and some 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:21.520 people had one, some people had the other, some people 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:25.920 had both. Um people were and this is you know, 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.440 our understanding is that there's an unstated but generally followed 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:32.640 policy by the City of Usha police de forma that 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:34.559 they don't go arrest people at work. But they went 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:38.000 to people's work with five cops and arrested them, um. 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:45.400 And this began in mid January, and it continued um 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:51.480 into into February and be arrest I mean, like honestly, 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.560 the charges on the on the charge sheets would read 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:57.319 like crazy statues that weren't even felony littering. It seems 0:08:57.320 --> 0:08:59.120 like they it really seemed like they were making it 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:02.080 up as they went along. Just from the what I 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:03.920 can say is, I mean, I can't speculate about what 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:08.559 they were doing, but there was a strangeness to to 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:12.200 even like the documentation that people who are arrested received. 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:16.720 And then at the in the first week of March 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:22.319 of last year, the letter that I received was similar 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:26.240 to others that others other folks received that day, which 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:31.360 was in an envelope from the Ashville Police Department, but 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:35.920 was on Ashell Parks and ch stationary that told me 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:40.240 that I had been banned from all city parks for 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:43.960 a period of three years based on the commission of 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:47.720 a celony. And this was how I found out that 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:54.400 I even had any charges, was through this letter. And 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:56.480 that's true for more than me, that's true for a 0:09:56.480 --> 0:10:02.840 few defendants. So you know, not everybody who is now 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:06.439 we understand to be banned from parks has even received 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:11.240 one of those letters, but I did, and a few 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:14.560 of us did, and there was on there a sort 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:16.160 of like if you would like to appeal this, you 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:18.960 have seven days, but the letter had been dated sort 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:21.800 of five days before that, and we were like, wow, 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:26.080 what are we even doing? And so it's hard to 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:30.760 it's hard to really communicate the like level of um 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:36.920 both like sort of desperation and nonsense that was involved. 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:40.600 The next day, but um, you know, so a few 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:43.400 of us found this out. We were we self surrendered 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.960 and because we were a lot of us around the 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:50.199 courthouse in city hall, we were trying to figure out 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:52.920 what does this letters even mean, Like what does it 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:54.880 mean to appeal this? What does it mean to be banned? 0:10:54.960 --> 0:11:00.720 And so we trapsed around city hall, city offices, the 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:04.600 courthouse trying to get some sort of answer like what here, 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.280 we've got these what does this mean? And every place 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:08.960 sent us somewhere where they were like, we don't know 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:10.800 what that is. Park Snart said, we don't know what 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.280 that is. Go talk to the police. We said, we 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:15.439 don't know what that is. Go talk to the magistrate. 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:18.320 The criminal magistrate said, oh, this seems like a civil 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:22.160 magistrate thing. So there's like a group of five mutual 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:25.560 aid workers, you know, sort of just trapesing around trying 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:28.040 to find out like can I do I get to 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:30.600 go give out sandwiches intense in the park this week 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.320 or not for three years? What is? And who can 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:37.360 help me figure this out? And no one could and 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:39.400 what insod? We never got an answer that day. We 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.679 just had city employees looking at us, often with a 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:45.960 like wow, we don't We're sorry this is happening to you. 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:54.680 This seems really dumb expression. And eventually via email it 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:57.040 became clear that they were like, we don't know what 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.720 this process is, but we're going to tell you soon. 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:02.320 Thank you for your email, you know, saying you're going 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:04.839 to appeal it and over time, we kind of got 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:07.000 a little bit more like, Okay, we're going to schedule 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:11.319 the hearings. You will have a hearing eventually, Like okay, 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:13.720 we asked who will be these are, like for what 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:18.319 what is a hearing? And they didn't know, and then like, oh, okay, 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:20.520 well there will be some police officers there and you know, 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:23.280 the city representative from the city Attorney's office, and you 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:26.960 will have a chance to provide information. And you know, 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:29.040 at this point, like none of us, I think none 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.800 of us had maybe we'd had adamin appearances, but like 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:36.480 at this point, we're dealing with felony littering charges that 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:40.320 we don't understand. We're trying to figure out whether we 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.360 can continue to provide community care in the way we've 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:49.240 been doing for years, and it seems like what the 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:53.800 city is offering is a chance to come and maybe 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.520 entrap ourselves. Like it doesn't make any sense to us. 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.520 And so you know, those of us who had presentation 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:04.920 that we could speak to said, oh, we're coming, and 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:10.800 have you heard the recordings? No, Well, if you would 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:14.319 like them, I'm happy to send them. Mine is particularly 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:16.520 I can't listen to mine. I have a huge nervous 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:21.800 system response, Um, but mine is my my attorney asking 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:26.319 over and over again questions of the of the representative, 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.080 the city attorney. It's not it's John Maddox, who's um 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.760 named in the ACLU demand letter. Um, just saying over 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.440 and over again, like what at that point, we haven't 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:37.560 even seen any discovery, Like we don't know what information 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.080 this is even based on, Like there are two cops 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.080 in uniform pointing body cams that assume I have to 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:49.200 assume pointing body cams at me, um, and in this hearing, 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:51.840 and my lawyer is just asking over and over again, 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:53.960 like upon what evidence is this space? And they just 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.920 said over and over again, you're here to give information. 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.800 We are not giving any information. My lawyer asking what 0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:03.160 is the standard of review here? Like how upon what 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.280 is this base? And the parks director just saying, like 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:11.280 my decision and the and and then and then you know, 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:13.480 what are the what is the remedy if this is 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:15.720 if the appeal is denied, there's none, then the appeal 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:19.560 is denied like and so it really was for me 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:24.200 one of the moments where I realized like, oh, the 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:28.880 city is is pretty hell bent on keeping a bunch 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:32.480 of sweethearts who give out tens and sandwiches out of 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:36.080 the park and they're gonna like they're they're upsistance in here. 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:39.880 But I'm happy to share that recording. We have all 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:44.800 of them reported. Yeah, I'd like that performance of like 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:49.640 sub legal ceremony well and like yeah and and like 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:53.240 pseudo in a dangerous and extra judicial way, like I 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:59.440 had no protections there, right, Yeah, it was like yeah, 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.600 there's I think to respond to. Yeah, like these these 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:05.640 are these these are Star Chamber proceedings, like like the 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:10.760 King of France is going to walk out. I just 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:15.440 think it seems like such a British thing, like yeah, 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:17.800 you told me this in Britain and you've been like 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:20.560 shooting the Queen's swans or something. I'd buy it. You know. 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:23.840 Here we are in the land of the free. You 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:27.440 know that well, And I think the equivalent of shooting 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:32.680 the Queen's swunts here is um hanging out with poor 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:39.800 folks in a park, um and in ways that inconvenience 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:45.040 or that apparently inconvenience the folks who go who pay 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:48.280 money because you have to to play tennis at a 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:52.920 public tennis court which is like right by Aston Park 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:55.240 and and we can go in in a minute as 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:57.200 much as you want to to what you saw as 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:02.400 far as like their attempts after their attempts to pass 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.360 to sneak through an ordinance. Um now we know quite 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:10.240 clearly from public records directed at at food sharing in 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:13.120 Austin Park. Yeah, it's really I keep thinking about that 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:16.600 that Helder Kamar aligned I When I give food to 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:18.200 the poor, they called me a saint. When I asked 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:19.920 why they are poor? They call me a communist. It's 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:22.200 like they really seem to have blown all the way, 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:24.640 Like they didn't even get to part two. They were 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:26.480 just like wait, hold on, you're giving food to the poor, 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.520 like it is time for a military response. It's just 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:36.800 it's just horrible. Yeah, and being banned from parks for 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.920 three years has a pretty big effect on my on 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:47.240 my little life, you know, like there are constitutional um 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:54.000 aspects to it that matter far beyond me and and 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:58.360 which matter in many ways more to me. But the 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:02.160 fact right now is that like I can't legally take 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.560 my young child like to the park, buy her house 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:10.240 without risking a rest for misdemeanor trust house, um and 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:12.720 and to my knowledge, I won't be able to for 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:18.560 three years. Um, and you know they've succeeded in getting 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:20.879 us out of the park. They caused the harm to 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:26.320 they disrupted community care. They did it. They didn't need 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:31.640 the ordinance. Um. You know, it does happen. Food distribution happens, 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:34.840 but it's in a place that really isn't the same. 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:37.359 Like my daughter can't go there. She has some sensory 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.879 stuff like being in the loud place that it is 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.679 right now, it really doesn't work. So yeah, there's this. 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:51.439 There's this very um like the scopes of all of 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:57.360 this from how Asheville as a city views and treats 0:17:57.760 --> 0:17:59.960 the folks who live on the street here who the 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:04.199 city has most abandoned. There's the legal mechanisms, the like 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:09.880 very strange way they are like doubling down on criminalization 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.679 of folks doing community care. And then there's just like 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:18.280 the really day to day personal personal bits of this 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.000 that affect all of us in different ways, And a 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:23.639 felony would affect lots of us in different ways, Like 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:27.679 it endangers professional licensure, Like I'm trying to get a 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:33.280 social work license, like people it endangers professional licensure. Of course, 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:38.239 I right to vote, housing and employment and you know, 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:42.680 I'm the like middle aged, white, middle class mom, second 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:46.840 graduate degree person in the group. I am not really 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:49.440 representative of our group. Like folks are in a lot 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:52.720 less folks are in a lot more precarious and material 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:56.639 circumstances than I am, and so much so that like, 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:00.359 you know, it feels safe for me to come on 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:02.359 this podcast. It doesn't feel safe for everybody to come 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:04.719 on a podcast. It feel safe for me to have 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.560 my name out, like, um, it doesn't for everybody. And 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:12.359 I think, um, yeah, I think that that's something that 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:14.920 has to be named too. Of like how what I 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:18.240 threat this is to folks future material will being as 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:20.480 well as currently like folks have most housing over this, 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:25.680 Folks have lost employment over this, like um Jesus Christ. Yeah, 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:28.479 Like even if you're found completely innocent or whatever, like 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.399 this is robbed your time or people at the housing 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:35.720 or people's their jobs that caused stress and in that way, 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:38.520 you know, it does feel and often to us like 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:45.880 the like the punishment is the process. Yeah, it's just harassment. 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:58.439 So I don't know if I feel are updated on 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:00.760 like there are five of us being taken to trial. 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:04.359 Is that something you know? Okay? Yeah, So yeah, but 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:08.680 our listeners probably aren't so explain like so right after 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:10.600 this happened or at some point actually happening. So I 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:12.400 know when we started speaking, I was like, well, I'd 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:14.879 pr ra the shit out of all your city council people, 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:18.440 and you were like, we already have. Yeah, so because 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:23.520 there was some stuff in there that was just weirdly Yeah, 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.239 can you explain what you got from, like this has 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:31.760 got a problem jib monica come from, among other things. Sure, yeah, gosh, 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:35.480 it's so even talking about it, I have such a 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:41.119 reaction and um that I can feel um and I 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:45.160 should say, you know, I speak about this to my name, 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:47.880 not about the city the text necessarily, but I speak 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:50.760 about the situation to a lot of people because it 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:53.760 does feel to us like you know, they're also I 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:56.760 think they would like us to be ashamed, but we're 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:58.719 not ashamed of what is happening to I mean, that's 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.240 part of the degradation of a quick system. And so 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:03.760 you know, all of my neighbors know what is happening 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:06.080 to me, all of the people that I work with, 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:10.720 um in the various like uh, school related jobs and 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.359 such that I do, and to a person, everyone in 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:18.000 Asheville starts with disbelief. They're like no, and then I'm 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:22.640 like yes, and then they're just so disappointed, like they're 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:28.119 just they're so appalled. Often people say the number in 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:30.520 nineteen eighty four. Often people are like, wow, I really 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:33.760 I didn't know. Some people did know, you know that 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:39.199 the city was was like this. Um, but you know 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:41.920 that's that's sort of paralleled my experience in a way, 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:47.120 just like disbelief and then and then disappointment. UM. But yeah, 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:53.639 we recently it's intensify and recently seeing the publicly available 0:21:54.400 --> 0:22:05.680 communication between council members UM, and and I think, UM, 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:08.199 I want to be careful and I don't have it 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:09.399 in front of me, and so I don't want to 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:13.040 I don't want to misquote it. But what I can say, UM, 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:16.080 is that anybody can go find on the City of 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:18.680 Aashables public records or posts. Anybody can go get those 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:22.960 now because they've been requested. Um. And so they're publicly available. 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:28.440 And we have texts between council members that that are 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:34.200 kind of debate, that that are in contemplation of an 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:40.280 ordinance that would restrict food sharing in public places to 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:44.680 to require permitting in contemplation of that, like we have 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:50.040 we have texts from council members calling um those who 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:53.240 do those who do fouturing ask and park problem children 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:55.800 UM and saying that it's a shame that the problem 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:57.920 children have ruined it for the rest of the class. 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:02.560 We have we have one saying, like, you know, probably 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:04.560 if if we go ahead, we city Council go ahead 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:06.840 with this, with this ordinance, there will be a lot 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:09.040 of protests and a lot of pushbacks, which of course 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:11.800 there was once it came out UM. And we have 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:14.960 the other council members saying like, yeah, that might be UM, 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:17.000 but if permitting is the only way to get them 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:22.399 to stop, then so be it. And I mean I 0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:25.840 read that, and I have a variety of reactions, but 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:31.280 mostly just like a kind of nauseous disappointment UM in 0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:36.680 And this is not true of all council UM because 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:39.679 some of some some folks have tried to like understand 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:44.720 the gap um being filled by folks who give out 0:23:44.880 --> 0:23:47.520 food and gear in a part um. And I think 0:23:48.200 --> 0:23:50.680 some of the council and have and have recognized it 0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:53.280 as a gap um that is being filled. And I 0:23:53.320 --> 0:24:00.000 think some are are so aware of what it says 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:03.439 about the city that folks have to show up in 0:24:03.480 --> 0:24:05.680 a park and give out food and gear and there's 0:24:05.840 --> 0:24:08.960 never enough of either. Um, they're so aware of what 0:24:09.000 --> 0:24:12.520 that lays bear about the abandonment that the city practices 0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:16.040 of those who live here that they can only see 0:24:16.080 --> 0:24:18.280 that and they can only be angry with us, right 0:24:18.359 --> 0:24:23.359 and call us problem children like forty three. Yeah, well 0:24:23.560 --> 0:24:25.160 you can see the sort of light like the kind 0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:28.320 of just like petty dictatorship mind that they've gotten themselves into. 0:24:28.400 --> 0:24:31.560 We're like they can't see the people who like, you know, 0:24:31.640 --> 0:24:33.880 nominally they're supposed to be serving, right, but like, okay, 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:35.760 we know how far that goes, but they can't see 0:24:36.040 --> 0:24:38.040 like you as anything other than just like a child. 0:24:38.119 --> 0:24:40.400 Because that's the kind of like this is the sort 0:24:40.400 --> 0:24:43.679 of dictator brain that they've that they've had from like 0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:47.159 holding this power. It's it kind of reminds me of 0:24:48.800 --> 0:24:52.359 like how he's through the fourteenth He said, like the 0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:55.280 state is me and therefore a tax on my reputation 0:24:55.359 --> 0:24:59.240 or like a tax against the state. Like yeah, that's 0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:02.000 how it feels like you're being treated us by making 0:25:02.000 --> 0:25:04.120 them look bad. And I don't know if you saw 0:25:04.160 --> 0:25:08.440 this also in there, but um, on the day that 0:25:08.520 --> 0:25:12.920 the arrests happen. So so those discussions about the ordinance 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:15.080 were I think a little earlier in January that which 0:25:15.119 --> 0:25:19.240 actually took that. Um. But there's a there's one that 0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:22.879 came right on the day of the first arrests for 0:25:23.119 --> 0:25:27.800 Lani lettering that um or someone asks like, can those 0:25:27.920 --> 0:25:34.280 arrested be banned from certain places? Um? And and we 0:25:34.359 --> 0:25:38.879 know now yes, but it is it's a lot to 0:25:38.960 --> 0:25:43.600 see that. It's a lot to see what looks um, 0:25:43.640 --> 0:25:47.320 what looks so deliberately like depriving us of the right 0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:52.440