1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it could happen here and today it's near 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: and myself and we're doing two interviews, which is going 3 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,120 Speaker 1: to split over two different episodes. What we're talking about 4 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: is a case in Ashua, North Carolina where a group 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: of people doing mutual aid work with and How's people 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: have been charged with felony littering. Now we're going to 7 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: get a little bit in the episode into what felony 8 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: littering is. Unfortunately, I don't think any of us can 9 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: explain why that exists as a charge for individuals and 10 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: not for BP or SHELL or something, but such as 11 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: a state. And so in the first episode, we're going 12 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: to talk to Sarah. Sarah is one of the people 13 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 1: facing these felony littering charges. Sarah's also been banned from 14 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,480 Speaker 1: parks in Nashville and which we're going to talk about. 15 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: So Sarah will explain a little bit of the process 16 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: that led up to those felony littering charges, what the 17 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: situations like in Asheville for mutual Aid in front How's people. 18 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: And then we're going to talk to Meniba tomorrow. Maniba 19 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: is one of the lawyers at the ACLU, and she 20 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: will explain a little bit of the legal background to 21 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 1: the case and what is sort of the way that 22 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: the a CEOU is helping these people oppose the ban. 23 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: So we'll have two separate episodes, but we actually recorded 24 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: them in a different order, So you're going to hear 25 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: Sarah maybe referring to some stuff Maniva said, and Maniva 26 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: saying Sarah will say some stuff. Just know that we 27 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: recorded Mani the first because she had a pressing time commitment, 28 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: but we felt that Sarah's interview gives you a better 29 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: set up for listening to many of the interview tomorrow. Okay, 30 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: hope you enjoy. We're going to start out talking to Sarah. 31 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 1: He's one of the people who is a quote unquote 32 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:41,279 Speaker 1: problem child in Asheville. We can yeah, yeah, okay, Sarah, 33 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: did like to introduce yourself and tell us where you're 34 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: a problem child? Yeah, my name is Sarah Norris. Um. 35 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: It's so funny to be called something like a problem 36 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: child because I'm mostly like what I am as a 37 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: mom of a little kid. I'm a social work student, 38 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: like I am a career educator, um. And I am also, yeah, 39 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: one of sixteen local organizers who who has been facing 40 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:17,119 Speaker 1: for almost the last year felony littering charges in conjunction 41 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 1: with December twenty one. December twenty twenty one art spaced protest. Yeah, 42 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, did this bizarre thing has happened to you? Obviously, 43 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: like on the face fit felines, felonines ring is a 44 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: bizarre charge, and the fact that you are banned from 45 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: parks is also very weird. Alright, So let's maybe start 46 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: off with, like the situations before this, what were you 47 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: what we were doing in the parks that led to 48 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: you being deemed unsuitable for parks? Gosh, no way, you'd 49 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: have to ask those who deemed who so deemed us? 50 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: But I can talk about what I did in parks 51 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: for the year prior to being banned, and that's I 52 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: was part of a collective whom who at the beginning 53 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: of the pandemic um did like six times a week meals, coffee, 54 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: gear distribution in parks. Um. By the time I came 55 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: around and started participating in these in these food sharings, 56 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: in these community gatherings, UM, we were at like two 57 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 1: or three times a week. And UM, really, what the 58 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: way I spent my time in parks was Saturdays and Sundays. 59 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: I brought my daughter to Aston Park and we brought 60 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: food with us, gear with us, art supplies with us, 61 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: or nothing with us. We just showed up as us 62 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: and we hung out and we distributed food, tents, packs, socks, toothbrushes, 63 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: really whatever we could get our hands on. And towards 64 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: the end of the year we got a little bookshelf 65 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: and uh we were we were in charge of bringing 66 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: books UM on this like little white plastic shelf and 67 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: like talking to people about what they most wanted and 68 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: see if they can match them up with whatever we 69 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: randomly had. UM. It was really like sitting in the 70 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: sunshine and making sure the coffee thing was full. Um. 71 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: And mostly just talking to people, people who were run house, 72 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: people who are housed, people who walked by and were like, 73 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: what's this? What's this picnic? Why is everybody like using 74 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: glitter glue? Like, oh, because there's a five year old 75 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 1: and that's what we do. UM. So so that's what 76 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: mostly I did in Parks, UM. And this is this 77 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: this activity, um isn't the context of a city. Who 78 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: I think in twenty twenty one, UM, I think we 79 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: know there were at least twenty ones weeps of homeless 80 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: encampments UM and a sweep like that name for some 81 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: of us, really connotes violence, but I think it's important 82 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: to name how violent those are. UM. A camp sweep 83 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: means that folks have to leave the place where they've 84 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: been living, and very often their belongings are then considered 85 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: to be trash, are bulldozed over, are are at a 86 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: minimum lost to them. And this had happened over and 87 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: over again in the city of Asheville. And yeah, there's 88 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: a way that that being in the park weekly felt 89 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: like a thing that happened in Ashville that was the 90 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: opposite of feats, that was like we're here, We're all 91 00:05:55,360 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: here together, like here we are UM. And so the 92 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: protest itself around which in the context of which like 93 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: these arrests have come, happened in December and it was 94 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: an arts based protest and was really about was in 95 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: favor of sanctuary camping in the city of Ashville with 96 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: sanitation services. That was the point of it. And there 97 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: were like kind of standard protest related events on or sorry, 98 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: arrests on Christmas night. So that's what UM Ashville police did. 99 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: And I think it's important just to note that there 100 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: were not unhoused folks evicted that night on Christmas night, 101 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: and no one who was there was pretending to be 102 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: unhoused and was arrested. That's a strange narrative that the 103 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,119 Speaker 1: City of Asheville Police Department has set in open court. 104 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: But there were standard sort of like misdemeanor trespass resisting 105 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: officer arrest that night, including of journalists, and then these 106 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: felony littering cases came much later and in a kind 107 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: of a different context. But that's what that's what happened 108 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: around Christmas. Okay, yeah, it's already pretty weird, but I think, yeah, 109 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: it gets waited. Yeah, yeah, So particularly if you were 110 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: not arrested, then I went home and chrismusy stuff, and 111 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: then at some point, well a letter comes to your 112 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: doors saying that you've been charged with like felony littering. 113 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: So my own experience, um, was that people organizers in 114 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: the mutually collective that I'm part of, who had been 115 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,559 Speaker 1: showing up in the parks week after week distributing food 116 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: and gear, started getting arrested in mid January. For um, 117 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: what we learned was something you could be arrested for, 118 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: which was felony littering and or aiding into and a 119 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: betting felony littering, which like honestly exactly and and some 120 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: people had one, some people had the other, some people 121 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: had both. Um people were and this is you know, 122 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: our understanding is that there's an unstated but generally followed 123 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: policy by the City of Usha police de forma that 124 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 1: they don't go arrest people at work. But they went 125 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: to people's work with five cops and arrested them, um. 126 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: And this began in mid January, and it continued um 127 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: into into February and be arrest I mean, like honestly, 128 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: the charges on the on the charge sheets would read 129 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 1: like crazy statues that weren't even felony littering. It seems 130 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: like they it really seemed like they were making it 131 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: up as they went along. Just from the what I 132 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: can say is, I mean, I can't speculate about what 133 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 1: they were doing, but there was a strangeness to to 134 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: even like the documentation that people who are arrested received. 135 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: And then at the in the first week of March 136 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 1: of last year, the letter that I received was similar 137 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: to others that others other folks received that day, which 138 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: was in an envelope from the Ashville Police Department, but 139 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: was on Ashell Parks and ch stationary that told me 140 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: that I had been banned from all city parks for 141 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: a period of three years based on the commission of 142 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: a celony. And this was how I found out that 143 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: I even had any charges, was through this letter. And 144 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: that's true for more than me, that's true for a 145 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: few defendants. So you know, not everybody who is now 146 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 1: we understand to be banned from parks has even received 147 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: one of those letters, but I did, and a few 148 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: of us did, and there was on there a sort 149 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: of like if you would like to appeal this, you 150 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: have seven days, but the letter had been dated sort 151 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: of five days before that, and we were like, wow, 152 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: what are we even doing? And so it's hard to 153 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: it's hard to really communicate the like level of um 154 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: both like sort of desperation and nonsense that was involved. 155 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: The next day, but um, you know, so a few 156 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: of us found this out. We were we self surrendered 157 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: and because we were a lot of us around the 158 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 1: courthouse in city hall, we were trying to figure out 159 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: what does this letters even mean, Like what does it 160 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: mean to appeal this? What does it mean to be banned? 161 00:10:54,960 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: And so we trapsed around city hall, city offices, the 162 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: courthouse trying to get some sort of answer like what here, 163 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: we've got these what does this mean? And every place 164 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: sent us somewhere where they were like, we don't know 165 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: what that is. Park Snart said, we don't know what 166 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: that is. Go talk to the police. We said, we 167 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 1: don't know what that is. Go talk to the magistrate. 168 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: The criminal magistrate said, oh, this seems like a civil 169 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: magistrate thing. So there's like a group of five mutual 170 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: aid workers, you know, sort of just trapesing around trying 171 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: to find out like can I do I get to 172 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: go give out sandwiches intense in the park this week 173 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: or not for three years? What is? And who can 174 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: help me figure this out? And no one could and 175 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: what insod? We never got an answer that day. We 176 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: just had city employees looking at us, often with a 177 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: like wow, we don't We're sorry this is happening to you. 178 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: This seems really dumb expression. And eventually via email it 179 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: became clear that they were like, we don't know what 180 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: this process is, but we're going to tell you soon. 181 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: Thank you for your email, you know, saying you're going 182 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 1: to appeal it and over time, we kind of got 183 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: a little bit more like, Okay, we're going to schedule 184 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 1: the hearings. You will have a hearing eventually, Like okay, 185 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: we asked who will be these are, like for what 186 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: what is a hearing? And they didn't know, and then like, oh, okay, 187 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: well there will be some police officers there and you know, 188 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: the city representative from the city Attorney's office, and you 189 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: will have a chance to provide information. And you know, 190 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: at this point, like none of us, I think none 191 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: of us had maybe we'd had adamin appearances, but like 192 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: at this point, we're dealing with felony littering charges that 193 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: we don't understand. We're trying to figure out whether we 194 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: can continue to provide community care in the way we've 195 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: been doing for years, and it seems like what the 196 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: city is offering is a chance to come and maybe 197 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: entrap ourselves. Like it doesn't make any sense to us. 198 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: And so you know, those of us who had presentation 199 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: that we could speak to said, oh, we're coming, and 200 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: have you heard the recordings? No, Well, if you would 201 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 1: like them, I'm happy to send them. Mine is particularly 202 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: I can't listen to mine. I have a huge nervous 203 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: system response, Um, but mine is my my attorney asking 204 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 1: over and over again questions of the of the representative, 205 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: the city attorney. It's not it's John Maddox, who's um 206 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: named in the ACLU demand letter. Um, just saying over 207 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 1: and over again, like what at that point, we haven't 208 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: even seen any discovery, Like we don't know what information 209 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: this is even based on, Like there are two cops 210 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: in uniform pointing body cams that assume I have to 211 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: assume pointing body cams at me, um, and in this hearing, 212 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: and my lawyer is just asking over and over again, 213 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: like upon what evidence is this space? And they just 214 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: said over and over again, you're here to give information. 215 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: We are not giving any information. My lawyer asking what 216 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: is the standard of review here? Like how upon what 217 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: is this base? And the parks director just saying, like 218 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: my decision and the and and then and then you know, 219 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: what are the what is the remedy if this is 220 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: if the appeal is denied, there's none, then the appeal 221 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: is denied like and so it really was for me 222 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: one of the moments where I realized like, oh, the 223 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: city is is pretty hell bent on keeping a bunch 224 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: of sweethearts who give out tens and sandwiches out of 225 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: the park and they're gonna like they're they're upsistance in here. 226 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: But I'm happy to share that recording. We have all 227 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: of them reported. Yeah, I'd like that performance of like 228 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: sub legal ceremony well and like yeah and and like 229 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: pseudo in a dangerous and extra judicial way, like I 230 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: had no protections there, right, Yeah, it was like yeah, 231 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: there's I think to respond to. Yeah, like these these 232 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: are these these are Star Chamber proceedings, like like the 233 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: King of France is going to walk out. I just 234 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: think it seems like such a British thing, like yeah, 235 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: you told me this in Britain and you've been like 236 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: shooting the Queen's swans or something. I'd buy it. You know. 237 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: Here we are in the land of the free. You 238 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: know that well, And I think the equivalent of shooting 239 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: the Queen's swunts here is um hanging out with poor 240 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: folks in a park, um and in ways that inconvenience 241 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: or that apparently inconvenience the folks who go who pay 242 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: money because you have to to play tennis at a 243 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: public tennis court which is like right by Aston Park 244 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: and and we can go in in a minute as 245 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: much as you want to to what you saw as 246 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: far as like their attempts after their attempts to pass 247 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: to sneak through an ordinance. Um now we know quite 248 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: clearly from public records directed at at food sharing in 249 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: Austin Park. Yeah, it's really I keep thinking about that 250 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: that Helder Kamar aligned I When I give food to 251 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: the poor, they called me a saint. When I asked 252 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: why they are poor? They call me a communist. It's 253 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: like they really seem to have blown all the way, 254 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: Like they didn't even get to part two. They were 255 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: just like wait, hold on, you're giving food to the poor, 256 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: like it is time for a military response. It's just 257 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: it's just horrible. Yeah, and being banned from parks for 258 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: three years has a pretty big effect on my on 259 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: my little life, you know, like there are constitutional um 260 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: aspects to it that matter far beyond me and and 261 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: which matter in many ways more to me. But the 262 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: fact right now is that like I can't legally take 263 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: my young child like to the park, buy her house 264 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: without risking a rest for misdemeanor trust house, um and 265 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: and to my knowledge, I won't be able to for 266 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: three years. Um, and you know they've succeeded in getting 267 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: us out of the park. They caused the harm to 268 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: they disrupted community care. They did it. They didn't need 269 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: the ordinance. Um. You know, it does happen. Food distribution happens, 270 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: but it's in a place that really isn't the same. 271 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: Like my daughter can't go there. She has some sensory 272 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: stuff like being in the loud place that it is 273 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 1: right now, it really doesn't work. So yeah, there's this. 274 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 1: There's this very um like the scopes of all of 275 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:57,360 Speaker 1: this from how Asheville as a city views and treats 276 00:17:57,760 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: the folks who live on the street here who the 277 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,199 Speaker 1: city has most abandoned. There's the legal mechanisms, the like 278 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: very strange way they are like doubling down on criminalization 279 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 1: of folks doing community care. And then there's just like 280 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: the really day to day personal personal bits of this 281 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: that affect all of us in different ways, And a 282 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: felony would affect lots of us in different ways, Like 283 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: it endangers professional licensure, Like I'm trying to get a 284 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: social work license, like people it endangers professional licensure. Of course, 285 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:38,239 Speaker 1: I right to vote, housing and employment and you know, 286 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: I'm the like middle aged, white, middle class mom, second 287 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: graduate degree person in the group. I am not really 288 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: representative of our group. Like folks are in a lot 289 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: less folks are in a lot more precarious and material 290 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: circumstances than I am, and so much so that like, 291 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: you know, it feels safe for me to come on 292 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: this podcast. It doesn't feel safe for everybody to come 293 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:04,719 Speaker 1: on a podcast. It feel safe for me to have 294 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: my name out, like, um, it doesn't for everybody. And 295 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: I think, um, yeah, I think that that's something that 296 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: has to be named too. Of like how what I 297 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: threat this is to folks future material will being as 298 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: well as currently like folks have most housing over this, 299 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: Folks have lost employment over this, like um Jesus Christ. Yeah, 300 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,479 Speaker 1: Like even if you're found completely innocent or whatever, like 301 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: this is robbed your time or people at the housing 302 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: or people's their jobs that caused stress and in that way, 303 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: you know, it does feel and often to us like 304 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 1: the like the punishment is the process. Yeah, it's just harassment. 305 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: So I don't know if I feel are updated on 306 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: like there are five of us being taken to trial. 307 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: Is that something you know? Okay? Yeah, So yeah, but 308 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: our listeners probably aren't so explain like so right after 309 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: this happened or at some point actually happening. So I 310 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 1: know when we started speaking, I was like, well, I'd 311 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 1: pr ra the shit out of all your city council people, 312 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: and you were like, we already have. Yeah, so because 313 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: there was some stuff in there that was just weirdly Yeah, 314 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,239 Speaker 1: can you explain what you got from, like this has 315 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: got a problem jib monica come from, among other things. Sure, yeah, gosh, 316 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: it's so even talking about it, I have such a 317 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: reaction and um that I can feel um and I 318 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 1: should say, you know, I speak about this to my name, 319 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 1: not about the city the text necessarily, but I speak 320 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: about the situation to a lot of people because it 321 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: does feel to us like you know, they're also I 322 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: think they would like us to be ashamed, but we're 323 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,719 Speaker 1: not ashamed of what is happening to I mean, that's 324 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: part of the degradation of a quick system. And so 325 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: you know, all of my neighbors know what is happening 326 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: to me, all of the people that I work with, 327 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: um in the various like uh, school related jobs and 328 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: such that I do, and to a person, everyone in 329 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: Asheville starts with disbelief. They're like no, and then I'm 330 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: like yes, and then they're just so disappointed, like they're 331 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 1: just they're so appalled. Often people say the number in 332 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four. Often people are like, wow, I really 333 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: I didn't know. Some people did know, you know that 334 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 1: the city was was like this. Um, but you know 335 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: that's that's sort of paralleled my experience in a way, 336 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: just like disbelief and then and then disappointment. UM. But yeah, 337 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: we recently it's intensify and recently seeing the publicly available 338 00:21:54,400 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: communication between council members UM, and and I think, UM, 339 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 1: I want to be careful and I don't have it 340 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: in front of me, and so I don't want to 341 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: I don't want to misquote it. But what I can say, UM, 342 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: is that anybody can go find on the City of 343 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: Aashables public records or posts. Anybody can go get those 344 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: now because they've been requested. Um. And so they're publicly available. 345 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: And we have texts between council members that that are 346 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: kind of debate, that that are in contemplation of an 347 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: ordinance that would restrict food sharing in public places to 348 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: to require permitting in contemplation of that, like we have 349 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: we have texts from council members calling um those who 350 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: do those who do fouturing ask and park problem children 351 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: UM and saying that it's a shame that the problem 352 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: children have ruined it for the rest of the class. 353 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: We have we have one saying, like, you know, probably 354 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: if if we go ahead, we city Council go ahead 355 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: with this, with this ordinance, there will be a lot 356 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: of protests and a lot of pushbacks, which of course 357 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: there was once it came out UM. And we have 358 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: the other council members saying like, yeah, that might be UM, 359 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: but if permitting is the only way to get them 360 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: to stop, then so be it. And I mean I 361 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: read that, and I have a variety of reactions, but 362 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: mostly just like a kind of nauseous disappointment UM in 363 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: And this is not true of all council UM because 364 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,679 Speaker 1: some of some some folks have tried to like understand 365 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: the gap um being filled by folks who give out 366 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: food and gear in a part um. And I think 367 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: some of the council and have and have recognized it 368 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: as a gap um that is being filled. And I 369 00:23:53,320 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: think some are are so aware of what it says 370 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 1: about the city that folks have to show up in 371 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: a park and give out food and gear and there's 372 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: never enough of either. Um, they're so aware of what 373 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: that lays bear about the abandonment that the city practices 374 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: of those who live here that they can only see 375 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: that and they can only be angry with us, right 376 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: and call us problem children like forty three. Yeah, well 377 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 1: you can see the sort of light like the kind 378 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: of just like petty dictatorship mind that they've gotten themselves into. 379 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: We're like they can't see the people who like, you know, 380 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 1: nominally they're supposed to be serving, right, but like, okay, 381 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: we know how far that goes, but they can't see 382 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: like you as anything other than just like a child. 383 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: Because that's the kind of like this is the sort 384 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: of dictator brain that they've that they've had from like 385 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: holding this power. It's it kind of reminds me of 386 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 1: like how he's through the fourteenth He said, like the 387 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: state is me and therefore a tax on my reputation 388 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: or like a tax against the state. Like yeah, that's 389 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: how it feels like you're being treated us by making 390 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 1: them look bad. And I don't know if you saw 391 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: this also in there, but um, on the day that 392 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 1: the arrests happen. So so those discussions about the ordinance 393 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: were I think a little earlier in January that which 394 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: actually took that. Um. But there's a there's one that 395 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: came right on the day of the first arrests for 396 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: Lani lettering that um or someone asks like, can those 397 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: arrested be banned from certain places? Um? And and we 398 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: know now yes, but it is it's a lot to 399 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: see that. It's a lot to see what looks um, 400 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: what looks so deliberately like depriving us of the right 401 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: to be in a park? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, and so 402 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: where is where's the five you are going to trial? Yeah? 403 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: Unknown number of people are banned from parks in Nashville. Yes, yes. 404 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: My understanding is that we someone has been told, um, oh, 405 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: we don't keep records of that, which also doesn't make 406 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 1: a lot of sense. Yeah, how can you force a 407 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: bath if we don't have a record of who's bay? 408 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: Yeah and I just quoted on that, but UM, but 409 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 1: my understanding is that, like, um, is that that has 410 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: been the It's like, oh no, there aren't records that 411 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: we can that can be made public about that because 412 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: there's complete aren't the records? Um? What does that? Just 413 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: seems like that's just like incredibly bizarre secret police shit 414 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: of like, yeah, no, we have like we have we 415 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: have lists that don't exist of people who are banned 416 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 1: from spaces and we won't tell you what they are 417 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: because I don't existe. Yeah, you'll find out when this 418 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: what team comes from behind the swings and yeah yeah, yeah, 419 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: yeah terrible. So yeah, you're banned from the park, you're 420 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: facing you're going to trial. Yeah, five of us um 421 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: have been have been scheduled for trial, and the other 422 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: folks um have been kind of what's called taken off 423 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: the calendar, so they don't have nothing's dismissed um, but um, 424 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: but they're not scheduled. There's no there's no next court 425 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,719 Speaker 1: date for them. Okay, so when when will you if 426 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: you don't mind saying, when would your trial date be? 427 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: Our trial date right now is set for February twenty seventh. 428 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: Well okay, so you're coming up, it's coming right up. Yeah, 429 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: that's tough. We'll make sure we get this out before then. 430 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: How can people support you, support the work that you 431 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: uh not doing in parks anymore? How can people help 432 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: you through this. I'm sure it's a really stressful trial prices. Yeah, 433 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: thank you for asking. Um. So we post updates in 434 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: a few different places. UM, But we don't have our 435 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: own Instagram right now because we're we just don't. But 436 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 1: our our defendant statements get released in a few different places, 437 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: including at a VL survival on INSTAGRAMM. We also have 438 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: a website where we always post our own statements and 439 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: also all the press that comes out about us, and 440 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: that is abl Solidarity dot no blogs dot org. We 441 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: have a VENMO which is used that those funds are 442 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: used for attorney fees um and and frankly, like you 443 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: know when someone loses housing or their car breaks down 444 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: and they have had trouble finding employment because they have 445 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: Felny lettering charges against them, and it's also used for 446 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: material needs in that way, and that is a VL 447 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: defendant fund and all that's actually on the website too. 448 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: You can find those um. And honestly, it matters so 449 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: much that people just know this is happening, you know, 450 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: when I tell people in Asheville, like more people know 451 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: now than did before. When I tell people outside of Asheville, 452 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: there's very much a like I thought about coming there. 453 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: I heard it was cool. They do want those who 454 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: make not just like a living from tourism, but those 455 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: who make tons of money from tourism are certainly invested 456 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: in thinking that it's really cool and coming to spend 457 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: your money here. And it's not cool in the ways 458 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: that they want you to think it's cool. It is 459 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: cool because neighbors show up for each other and you 460 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: can come here and we'll talk to you about that. 461 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: But there's a way that, like people knowing what this 462 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: place is really like does matter. And there's a way 463 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: that honestly, people just like sending us like they're they're 464 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: beautiful energy and hope really matters too, Like that actually 465 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: that actually really doesn't matter. So they can send us 466 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: through beautiful energy and hope and material contributions as they 467 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: might have them. Yeah, I'm sure people will because horrifically 468 00:29:54,680 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: fucked up. I wanted to ask what it's the sentence 469 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:14,479 Speaker 1: range for felony literary Yeah, um, so um, it's the 470 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: lowest class of felony. As it happens, none of us 471 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: have any criminal history, we'd be facing felony probation, and 472 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: so that could that there's a range there of whether 473 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: that probation is supervised or unsupervised. UM. There's a range 474 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: of how long it would be, there's a range um 475 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: of restitution in terms of community service, UM and and 476 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: I actually don't have the paper in front of me 477 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: that says what the range of those things are, but 478 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: I feel like it's eight to twelve months on probation 479 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: um and a lot of that is simply at the 480 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: discretion of incentencing um and um. And I think that 481 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: that there are some puzzible restrictions on just like being 482 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: able to leave the state. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 483 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: I mean yeah, sorry, christ Like, this is fully fucking 484 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: sent me now because a guy, a man called Robert 485 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: Wilson in San Diego was arrested for hate crimes because 486 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: he assaulted his gay neighbor. Since he was arrested, he's 487 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: driven around San Diego and La dressed as a Natzi, 488 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: sometimes with horrifically anti semitic slogan, has just left the 489 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: country and is living in Poland because because fucking like somehow, sorry, 490 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I love it. This is fully fully sent 491 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 1: me now too. Yeah yeah, what is wrong with this ship? 492 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: Yeah there was something else you wanted to get to you. Yeah, 493 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: I think I wanted to name so. You know, people 494 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,479 Speaker 1: are so in a way like I wish I had 495 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: a super cut of everyone I've ever said the word felony, 496 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: lettering too, just like over and over again. Maybe I'll 497 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: come to Asheville and just vox pops pop. Yeah. Um 498 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: so there's a way that you know, of course, that's 499 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: just like and if you add on aiding and a betting, 500 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: which we've all been bumped up to follow me, littering, 501 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: um but or sort of but but but the mystemar 502 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: is conspiracy to commit no, yeah, what's next? Reco charge exact? Yes, 503 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: so um so on its face, you know, it has 504 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: this ring of absurdity, and of course like it is, 505 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of the press about us, you know, 506 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: they'll go talk to someone at the School of Government 507 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: who says, like, well, this is baffling and at the 508 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: very least seems like a misapplication of the statute, which 509 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: is about um, huge amounts of waste often being like 510 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: dumped by businesses. Um. But I think it's it's it's 511 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: telling that a couple maybe a month or two ago, 512 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: there was an article in the Citizen Times, a local paper, 513 00:32:54,960 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: about US and a company, Waste Pro, which had dumped 514 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: an entire dumpster's worth of trash. Now I'm like out 515 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: somewhere outside of UM where it should have been like 516 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: in the landfill, And but it was all about like 517 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: how actually they had followed procedure because there was like 518 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: maybe a little bit of a battery fire or something. 519 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: There was something going on with it where they they 520 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: weren't supposed to bring it in, so they just had 521 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: to dump it UM. But in the course of this 522 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: article UM they interviewed a lot of people about like, well, 523 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: what's going on with like litter in general and like 524 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: big amounts of litter, and our case was never mentioned, 525 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: but they did talk to some folks who who do 526 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: river clean up, an organization called GreenWorks, and that person said, 527 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes there are like there's huge amounts of 528 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: dumping that happens, and we call the city and they say, yeah, 529 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: that's illegal, but we don't actually prosecute that, and like, 530 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: you know, that's the sort of thing also that seeing 531 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: in print, I'm just like, what what sort of strange 532 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: like dystopian novel am I living in where the city 533 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 1: is so upfront that like, oh no, like we wouldn't 534 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: prosecute felony littering, but when it comes to aiming to 535 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: disrupt a kind of community care and political speech that 536 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: they don't like, they're willing to expend an incredible amount 537 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: of resources on it. You know, like the number of 538 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: resources that have gone into this would have funded like 539 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: sanctuary camping with sanitation services like for years, for years, 540 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: and you know, I think you alluded though maybe this 541 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: is in the future of the podcast, like to the 542 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: way the City of Asheville or our lawyers have been 543 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:52,879 Speaker 1: clear that when you when you look at the City 544 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: of Asheville's like public apnouncements and the way that they 545 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: talk about U homelessness, it does seem like, oh wow, 546 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 1: we're really we're really trying to get on this um. 547 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: But at a recent meeting where a consultant group often 548 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: referred to as like yeah, that other like that that 549 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: consultant group from now because it's happened to over and 550 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 1: over again, presented findings about like what should actually be 551 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: done to end unheltered homelessness. Here presented findings to the 552 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 1: city Council and accounting commissioners. No one was allowed to 553 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: talk except for this huge meeting no one was allowed 554 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: to talk except for council members and commissioners and those 555 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: who were presenting. But a man who actually has experienced 556 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: was experience with homelessness got up and talked anyways, and 557 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: he was interrupted by the mayor and like that's telling 558 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: in its own right. Um, that's that's telling in its 559 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: own right. Also telling is that later um also not 560 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: allowed to speak, a local pastor got up and said, 561 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: you know, I saw that happen. You know, like what 562 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: we need to be doing is actually listening to the 563 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: folks who've experienced this and like data, yes, we need data, 564 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: but we also need to like actually listen to the 565 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: voices of what's going on. And he used the phrase um, 566 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: which I think was echoing the man who had spoken 567 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: earlier spiritual death, and said that this he thinks as 568 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: a pastor, that Ashville is in a moment of spiritual death. 569 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,880 Speaker 1: And in a way, that's why I say, like we 570 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: need you, We need your material contributions to us as 571 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 1: defendants to collective care. Like when we have extra money 572 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: in that defendive fund, we just give it away. Some 573 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: people can buy more tents, and we need like we 574 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: need some hope because Ashville is in this moment where 575 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 1: it's as a city, it's making choices that seem so 576 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: misaligned not just with like the image that it would 577 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: like to sell to tourists, but like with with the 578 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: people who live here and are actually like about it 579 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: day to day in a neighbor's caring for a neighbor's way, 580 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: Like really misaligned with what we actually want and what 581 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 1: we actually are capable of offering each other. Yeah, yeah, 582 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: it is deeply sad that, like we've created this abstraction 583 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: of society which is being entirely antisocial, like no one 584 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: wants no one. Yeah, no reasonable person would do that. 585 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,720 Speaker 1: But we've got the state which interiacts on our behalf 586 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: and is doing it. Yeah yeah, which also is probably 587 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 1: I know, to editorialize for a second. Often people will 588 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: make this argument. I see it specifically around gun laws, 589 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: but with other laws to where this law won't always 590 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: be enforced. I only use it if they need it, 591 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: if they have to get a bad person. They will 592 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: use it if anybody threatens their interest, their shit right. 593 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 1: So it was extensively mobilized for a ghost gun law here, 594 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:58,359 Speaker 1: which made some bizarre things illegal, like the bank stick, 595 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: which you use for spear fishing is now scan and 596 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: a felony, and like there were definitely boomers who have 597 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: dozens of those in the garage right and don't keep 598 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 1: up on local audiences and are now in theory at 599 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: risk of committing a felony. And then obviously the response 600 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: to that from the councilors, Oh, well, we wouldn't charge him, 601 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: like who we can't trust the state to be benevolent 602 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: when it's your experience has shown it's anything but and 603 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,919 Speaker 1: you know we And I can say this personally because 604 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 1: I've spoken I've spoken to people in city government or 605 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: in state government who I've just said like, hey, did 606 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 1: you know this is happening? Um? And and they're clear 607 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: about how Um sure it sounds Nettie but the city 608 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: but like that that we as a group have been 609 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: painted as particularly dangerous. And that part to me is like, 610 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,399 Speaker 1: I mean, don't do this to anybody, you know, don't 611 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: do it to anybody. But the part where where what's 612 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 1: going on is like it's is this strange justification, um, 613 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: with the idea that that we are dangerous people who 614 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: deserve to be taken you know, who need to be 615 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: taken out of a park who need to not be 616 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,360 Speaker 1: allowed to be in a park, you know, is particularly 617 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: easily disproved by anyone who actually like hangs out with us, 618 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,320 Speaker 1: knows what, knows who we are and what we've done, 619 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: but not when it's just like a weird whisper campaign 620 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,320 Speaker 1: in the in the halls of city government, like, oh no, 621 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: they're bad, Like there's bad um. Like we've heard the 622 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: lies that they've told about us. Some of them we 623 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 1: have in um in you know, public records requests like 624 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,879 Speaker 1: um that we haven't even talked about. But it's it's 625 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 1: a it's a really strange thing to be to be 626 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 1: painted that way. Yeah, yeah, it's basign. Again, I'm sorry 627 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: it's happening to you. And so I think to wrap up, 628 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 1: maybe again you could just give that. Then most people 629 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,879 Speaker 1: can support materially and yeah, you know, if there's any 630 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 1: other social media account where people can follow along, where 631 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 1: people can send their support and best wishes that, yeah, 632 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: that's great. Our Venmo is a VL defendant fund, and 633 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 1: yeah you can so on Instagram. We're easy to get 634 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: you through a VL survival and there's a way to 635 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 1: contact us through our website. We can have a little 636 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: we have a little email. I'll be so cute to 637 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,720 Speaker 1: get some supportive emails. And that website is a VL 638 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 1: solidarity dot no blogs dot org. Amazing. Thank you all 639 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: so much. Thank you for giving us your time. I'm 640 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:46,399 Speaker 1: sorry that you dealing with the farious state bullshit, all right, 641 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: So that wraps up. Are into you with Sarah. Tomorrow 642 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: we'll be talking to Maniba from the ACOU, the American 643 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: Civil Liberties Union, and she will be giving us a 644 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: legal perspective and some more insight into this case. We'll 645 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 1: look forward to talk with you then. It Could Happen 646 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: here as a production of cool Zone Media. For more 647 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 1: podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia dot 648 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,320 Speaker 1: com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 649 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 650 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 1: for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot 651 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,800 Speaker 1: com slash sources. Thanks for listening.