WEBVTT - Selects: Maggots: Good For Healing Wounds, Turns Out 0:00:00.840 --> 0:00:03.400 Hello there, it's Josh and for this week's S Y 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:07.360 s K Selex, I've chosen maggots colon good for healing wounds. 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:11.240 Turns out, uh, and that is absolutely true. Um, I 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.720 really listened to all of our select episodes, and I 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:18.000 listen to this one, and I'm clearly excited in the episode. 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:20.960 But I was just as excited listening to it all 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:24.400 these years later, but five years after we released it. Um, 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:26.960 So I hope it excites you. It is groty, but 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:31.200 it's also pretty awesome. So enjoy slash prepared to be 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:38.479 grossed out. Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:47.640 of My Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:51.800 to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:54.480 and uh, no one, no one else is in here 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:57.600 with us yet again, because we've graduated to the point 0:00:57.640 --> 0:00:59.880 where we don't even need a producer. We need so 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.840 body who presses record and leaves Yep, that's it, because 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:08.360 we're pros Yep, not p R O s E. P 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.959 R Oh that's right, we're not. But we are prosaic, yes, 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:15.959 but definitely not p r O apostrophees. Very few things 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:18.160 drive me crazier than that. And I know it's stupid 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:21.560 and pedantic, but to see, like somebody take out a 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:25.080 huge billboard or something and so a word has an 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:28.800 apostrophe that shouldn't prose. People say, like, leave it to 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:31.959 the pros and they'll put an apostrophe. Yes, and it's 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:36.160 it's that graphic designer should be, you know, doctor half 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:41.200 a day's paying maybe eight bucks. Something we want to 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:43.840 issue and you probably would get this from the title 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.320 of the episode, but we want to issue a meal warning. 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:50.200 Oh good thinking, because we've gotten complaints in the past 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:52.240 when people are eating and get sick listening to some 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:55.240 of these, Yeah, this would do it possibly for some people. 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:59.520 I was fine, I ate a runny yolk egg sandwich 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:03.440 while I white writer. Yeah right, it didn't bother me, 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:06.080 but I could totally see how it could be any people. 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:08.840 I also want to say, um, if it comes up, 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:13.520 do not go Google image search wound sloth. Well, I 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:17.520 just put do not Google image search maggot therapy at all. Okay, sure, 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:21.679 but definitely stay away from wound sloth s l o 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:27.400 U g H. Yeah, wow, it definitely don't look at 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:32.080 wound slough while you're eating. Yeah, okay, so that's all 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:34.079 out of the way. Yes, I predict we're going to 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:36.160 be kind of excited about this one. I'm feeling a 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:38.960 little pumped about it. Well, we did cover in uh 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:43.240 tin bizarre medical treatments uh leech therapy, which is still 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:45.840 being used, and I'm surprised this wasn't in that article. 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.520 To be honest, I am as well. But this gets 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.560 its own special deal, and well it should actually because 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:56.600 it's a pretty amazing thing. Um, we're talking about maggot therapy. Also, 0:02:57.320 --> 0:02:59.640 by the way, yes it is they were awesome so 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:01.880 or they really or is it a band name? Well, 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:03.960 it's a band name to end all band names. There 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:06.120 probably was a band name that, So there's it's called 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:13.760 maggot therapy, maggot debridement therapy, larval therapy, or bio. There's 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:19.200 another one called I think like bio biodebridement or therapeutic 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:26.840 wound misses. Yeah, and that's basically all the all of them, 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:28.680 no matter what you call it, no matter how you 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:33.120 church it up. It is the application of live maggots 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:38.800 fly larva to purposefully to an open wound in order 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:42.600 to help that wound heal. Faster and better and cleaner 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:50.560 and everything. Dat punk said, Oh yeah, you know, should 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:51.960 we talk about some of the history of this stuff. 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:56.440 Let's just say that one more time. Okay. Maggot debridement 0:03:56.520 --> 0:04:00.520 therapy is taking live maggots and put getting them in 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:03.080 an open wound on a human being or an animal. 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:05.400 It's used in veterinary medicine as well, wrapping it up 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:09.680 tight and letting them just eat the dead and dying 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:14.280 flesh of that wound while you get your foot tickled. Okay, 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:16.080 I would be so skiped out by this. I just 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:18.920 wanted to make sure that everybody knows exactly what we're 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:24.520 talking about, right, and goodbye to everyone everyone who fainted. Okay, Yeah, 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:26.840 let's talk about the history, chuck, because this is um. 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:30.680 This is in use today, but it's actually pretty old. Yeah, 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:32.520 I mean it's it's some say it's an even an 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:37.240 ancient tradition, like in places like Burma in Central America 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.560 with the Mayan's um. They were smart enough to know 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:45.800 that maggots do a pretty good job of consuming human flesh. Uh, 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.600 and it can be used for good in that regard. Yeah, 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:51.839 at some point I guess healers noticed like yef. People 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.440 who had maggots in their wounds tended to have wounds 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:58.039 heal U. And actually, as far as the Western literature goes, 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:02.359 that's exactly how um maggot therapy first finds its way, 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:07.799 first crawls into the medical literature is from a French 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:14.719 surgeon named Ambro Ambras Poare. Yeah, but how would you say, 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:20.040 I don't know, I don't speak French Ambras even though 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:23.240 it doesn't have the little what is that an accent? Yeah, 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.760 it's just the e. But he was a sixteenth century 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:31.800 surgeon and he noticed that, um, that people didn't necessarily 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.960 fall over dead if there was a maggot in the wound. Yeah. 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:37.600 He was the first doctor to actually come out and say, 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:40.640 you know, I had this patient with a big skull wound, 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:44.320 and unbeknownst to me, there were maggots in there. I 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:46.840 saw them crawling out one day. And even though they 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:49.520 had a lot of bone. Um, the guy was great. 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:53.200 He healed like he lost a hand sized slab of 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:56.880 skull and he lived. And I think it might have 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:59.280 something to do with the maggots. And he presumably were 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:01.760 a helmet for the us of his life. Probably he 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:05.960 had a probably big soft skull there, I guess so. Uh. 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:10.400 That was followed in uh with the mid seventeen hundreds 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:17.440 by another Frenchy baron, Dominique Jean Laoie uh, and he said, 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:21.159 you know what, on this Egyptian expedition, Uh, these blue 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:25.760 fly maggots are actually doing the right thing and helping 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:28.719 us out. So it's almost like these doctors just noticed 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:32.000 this exactly and it meant enough to him that they 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.560 were like, I should probably write this down. This is 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:37.400 going to be my great contribution to medical history of 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:42.000 the history of science, right. Um. So it wasn't until 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:46.080 the uh, I guess, the Civil War that a doctor 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.120 actually said I'm going to purposefully put maggots in a 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:52.600 wound and see what happens. And that doctor was John 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:56.160 Forney Zacharias. He probably didn't tell his patient that. I 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:58.680 think probably that he was just like, just bite down 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.040 on this brooms and the other way. Do you want 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:02.520 to lose your foot or do you want to try 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:07.680 something really weird? Well, supposedly in studies of people, modern 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:11.320 patients who are offered this therapy say yes to it. Well, yeah, 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:12.760 because I think that's what it comes down to. You 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:15.120 it's a last resort. Basically, it's not the first thing 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:21.280 they offer, not necessarily. Um So, Anyway, doctor Zacharias um 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:23.440 Hey had a great quote. He said, during my service 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.640 in the hospital at Danville, Virginia, I first used maggots 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:30.520 to remove the decayed tissue in Hospital Gang Green, and 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:33.920 with my eminent satisfaction, in a single day, they would 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:36.200 clean a wound much better than any agents we had 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.160 at our command. I used them afterwards at various places. 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:41.520 I am sure I saved many lives by their use, 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:46.440 escaped sept to semia, and had rapid recoveries period. End quote. 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:49.720 Pretty great. Yeah. So he was a huge believer and 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:52.520 not just a passive observer like people who came before him. 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:55.680 He said, Yeah, I put maggots on wounds and it helps, 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:58.920 That's right. And uh, people experimented with it for a 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:02.720 little while until um a guy named Louis Pasteur and 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:07.720 Robert Coke came along, uh microbiologists and germ theorists that 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:12.040 basically said, you know, this is this is disgusting. We 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.480 might want to not do this. Yeah, because they're dirty. 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:18.680 Yeah yeah, and it's true. Maggots naturally in the wild 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:22.480 carry lots of pathogens with them that UM can infect 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:24.440 us in other ways, can make a wound worse, can 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.600 actually kill you. So this the idea behind germ theory 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:32.520 as far as maggots goes. Right. But UM, it seems 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:37.760 like there's this long history of necessity and disgusted with 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:40.760 maggot therapy that kind of wayne ebbs and flows right, 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.320 and necessity rears its head on the battlefield. It did 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:45.960 in the Civil War, and it also did in World 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:50.680 War One. There was a surgeon UM named William S. 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.840 Bayer and he was working on the front lines in France, 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:57.239 and he used maggots on stomach wounds and open fractures, 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.960 and he found, to his great satisfaction, just like Dr 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:05.840 Zacharias and the other before him, that this stuff actually worked. Yeah, 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:08.400 And he actually said, you know what, I have some 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:11.959 further advancements. UM, maybe we should put a bandage over 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.880 this thing so it doesn't completely discussed the patient. Uh, 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:20.360 And let me UM put bandages around the wound, so 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:23.640 they don't start creeping onto the healthy flesh and doing 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.120 damage or just itching you or creeping you out further 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:29.800 right exactly, UM, which are still in use today. These techniques. 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:33.040 He also pioneered another huge technique, and this is after 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:36.000 the war was over. Ten years later, when he was 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:39.840 back at Johns Hopkins UM. He he pioneered another really 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:44.760 important technique, and that was using sterilized um maggots. Like 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.920 germ free maggots. They were raised as eggs in a 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:51.240 sterile environment and so when they were introduced to the wounds, 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:55.800 they weren't carrying these pathogens anymore. And he found this 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.840 is the jackpot. Now you can use maggots from now on. 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:01.200 That's right. And there was a big boom in the 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:05.400 thirties up until the mid nineteen forties. Uh, three more 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:10.080 than three hundred American hospitals. Uh, we're using maggot treatment, 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:15.200 maggot therapy. And then in uh antiseptics came along, or 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:17.440 you know, new antiseptics and they said, you know what, 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.440 maybe there was another lull in the use of maggot theory. Right, 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:23.760 Necessity didn't didn't spur this stuff, and it was they 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:25.840 went back to just being gross again. There was a 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.480 guy um who by the eighties wrote what what this 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:33.439 one article calls the majority opinion. Fortunately, maggot therapy is 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:37.040 now relegated to a historical backwater of interest more for 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.320 its bizarre nature than its effect on the course of 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.440 medical science. A therapy the demise of which no one 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:46.280 is likely to mourn. That's just that kind of Western 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:51.280 medicine hubris, where like we can do anything except everything, 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:56.880 you know. Uh, that's right. And in the nineteen nineties, UM, 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:01.720 a dude named Ronald Sherman and Edward peck Or basically 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:06.760 champion the technique again and kind of brought it into 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:09.720 the modern age. Yeah, and still very much is. Um. 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:13.240 Ronald Sherman is one of the first, I think, to 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:18.840 receive a license to produce sterile maggots for use as 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:22.960 medical devices. Um. And there's another guy over in uh 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:28.760 the UK named John Church um who who brought the 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:33.640 maggot their maggot therapy into the four So it was 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:37.239 an ancient thing, it was. It's found to be disgusting, 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:39.760 it's found to be useful, it's found to be disgusting, 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:43.840 it's found ways you can make it better. It's found 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:46.480 to be disgusting. And then now that this idea of 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:51.480 complimentary medicine is is kind of regaining some traction again. UM, 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.199 I think it's here to stay. Though I think so too, 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.040 unless someone comes along in ten years is you know 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:59.240 what it's disgusting, Well, you know the chuck. I mean 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:01.600 probably what we're seeing is the next thing that will 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:04.080 happen is there will be some huge leaps, some huge 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:06.840 development in science, and science will get its tackles up 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.719 again and great about itself and we don't need any 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:13.280 of that stupid nastiness. And then we'll find that Nope, 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.360 you still can't beat good old fashioned maggots. And that's 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:18.400 that should be the title of this thing. You can't 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.520 beat good old fashioned maggots for healing a wound that 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.360 won't heal otherwise. It's a great title. So you want 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.120 to take a break, Uh, yeah, let's do it, and 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:30.040 we'll go um treat our own wounds and we'll be 0:12:30.080 --> 0:13:04.240 back shortly. All right, Let's talk about diabetes for a second. Yeah, 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:09.199 more than twenty three million Americans are affected with diabetes. 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:13.120 And one thing that can happen, uh is nerve damage, 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:17.080 especially in the extremities the hands and feet and the 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.520 toes and the and the fingers. Your blood vessels become 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.360 hard and they don't circulate the blood like you need. 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:27.240 That can lead to open sores called ulcers, which can 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:31.000 become infections, which can spread to nearby bone, which can 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:33.960 lead to amputation. Yeah, and all of all this is 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.160 just from a prolonged exposure to high levels of blood 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:38.880 sugar and they're not sure how it can do it. 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:42.240 But yeah, the blood, the blood vessels not helping pump 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.160 blood very well get nutrients or your tissue can die. 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:49.880 But also that neuropathy that dead and nerves cell um 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:52.920 that actually makes it hard for you to notice. If 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:55.560 you have like a really bad ulcer on the bottom 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:57.679 of your foot, you can't feel it. Yeah, and so 0:13:57.720 --> 0:13:59.800 you don't get treatment early enough, so it can get 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.160 an infection, can get out of hand, and when it 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:07.520 spreads to bone that's called osteo myelitis. That's problematic because 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:10.480 that very quickly will lead to an amputation. And there's 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:14.240 some pretty shocking stats here from this article that Tom wrote, 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:19.360 Um about this sheave jam Yeah nice, it's yeah for sure, Um, 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:24.440 But about amputations from diabetes, Yes, seventy thousand to foot 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.520 and leg amputations each year in the United States alone, 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.280 and uh they say around the world, they estimate every 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:35.840 thirty seconds someone gets a limb cut off because of diabetes. Yeah, 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:38.800 that's sad. Yeah, it really is, and we should. We 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:41.760 will do one on diabetes for sure. Oh yeah, I'm 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:47.720 surprised we haven't already. Um. But the so amputation is 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:52.640 used to halt the progress of an infection, and that's 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.840 usually the last resort. But what's what Tom points out 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:59.160 is that there are plenty of doctors around the world 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:03.160 I imagine that aren't aware that you can use maggots 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:06.400 or have ever done it before. And if you are 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:10.320 facing an amputation from say like a wound, a persistent wound, 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:13.440 a chronic wound that won't heal, Um, you may want 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:15.960 to suggest maggots to your doctor. You may have to 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:20.040 actually take this the the initiative on this one and say, 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.560 let's make sure the amputation is the absolute last resort. 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:25.480 Let's see if we can put one more resort in 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:28.560 there before then I'm willing to let maggots crawl inside 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:32.360 my body in this wounds open wound if you're willing 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:36.280 to apply them. And they uh, like most doctors love 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:40.600 hearing when patients suggest treatments. Oh they do. They love feedback. 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:44.960 They love to be guided in their diagnoses and prognoses. Yeah, 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:47.360 I love it. That's a tough jam. I get it. 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:50.000 Doctors are frustrated a lot of these days with self 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:53.520 diagnosis and online doctoring. But you should also be your 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:56.200 own advocate. We can't be in that before. Yeah it's 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:58.600 your leg. Yeah you want to keep your leg. You 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:00.720 tell that doctor to go get some maggots. You're going 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.160 to replace them with the doctor who will. I can 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:05.160 find a guy, Yeah, I can get a guy by 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:07.840 noon that'll put maggots on that wound. And actually there's 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.720 a there's a group I think Ronald Sherman, the guy 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:14.080 we mentioned earlier who's like the the US champion of 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:18.080 maggot therapy. UM. It's there's this group called the B 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:22.080 Turf Foundation B T e Er Foundation, UM, and they 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:26.440 have all sorts of resources for people in that very situation, 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:30.600 like how to talk to your doctor, UM that if 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.120 your insurance won't cover it, let them know, because they 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:37.920 say insurance actually most insurance covers maggot therapy, but most 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:41.160 insurance claims people are not aware of that, so you 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:43.680 may get denied at first. And here's how to talk 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.840 to your insurance company. That's it really is. That beats 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:48.800 going to your doctor and saying well, you know what 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:51.840 Josh and Chuck said. He you're not gonna like hearing this, 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.120 right because you think you know it all doctor, please 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.280 take a sleep and be put maggots on my feet, right. 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:00.240 And and that's the other thing too, I mean, like 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.360 we wouldn't be suggesting this and the Better Foundation probably 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.440 wouldn't be such advocates for it if it didn't work 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:13.320 so amazingly. Well, it's study after study, and we'll talk 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:15.960 about the details of it, but there's so many studies 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:20.400 out there. Um Again. Sherman, who agreed, is an advocate, 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.080 but in a pure reviewed journal published a survey of 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:26.240 studies that he could find on maggot therapy, and it's 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:30.160 very clear that it works really really well, and not 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:34.199 only necessarily um as a means of last resort, but 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:38.280 even just compared to the standard of care using like 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:40.560 hydrogell or other things that you might use to treat 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:44.000 a chronic wound. Maggots destroy it, They leave it in 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:46.600 the dust. Yeah. And if it doesn't work, it's not 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:50.399 gonna hurt anything. Yeah. Yeah, it just puts off how 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:53.360 much longer before they amputate your foot? Pretty much? Yeah. 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.320 Uh so what will happen is they will Well, let's 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:59.680 get into this a little bit. Um, there are four 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:01.480 differ friend, and you where did you find this? Was 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.159 this a a research paper? Yeah? This is by Ronald 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:09.800 Sherman Mechanisms of maggot induced wound healing colin What do 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:11.919 we know and where do we go from here? It 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.200 was in the journal Evidence Based, Complimentary and Alternative Medicine 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:17.600 in two thousand and fourteen, that's right, And he describes 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:26.440 four different phases of basically healing a wound um homeostasis, inflammation, ploriferate. Man, 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:31.880 I'm so bad at that one. Oh yeah, keep it coming, proliferation, 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:36.679 nice going, and uh remodeling and maturing. And what happens 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:39.440 is the cells get to work, they recruit other cells, 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:42.879 they alter their activities and basically say, let's get to 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:47.240 work cleaning and uh, well on all four of these 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:51.359 stages to help heal the wound. Yeah, and at any 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:55.720 any one of those stages, Um that the next process 0:18:55.800 --> 0:19:00.000 can stall out. Um. Normally it stalls out at inflamation 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:02.879 ation because the infection gets out of hand in the 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:07.399 body can't fight off the infection faster than it's laying 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:11.200 The extracellular matrix for the new cells to be rebuilt, 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.760 the new tissue to recro um. And that's that's it's 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.800 a common thing that leads to chronic wounds. Yes, they 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.360 just won't heal. And that's where maggots are really really 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:24.680 useful to basically interrupt that stall and get the car 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:26.879 moving again in the right direction. It's exactly right, they 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:31.440 kick started. Uh. So debridemant is removing dead tissue, and 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:36.439 that is really where maggots excel um. They said, Uh, 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:39.800 in here, each maggot can chew, Well they don't exactly chew, 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:43.119 which we'll get to. Uh. They remove twenty five milligrams 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:47.760 of necrotic material dead flesh, uh, in just twenty four hours. Yeah, 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.280 that's pretty good. Yeah, and uh, there's there's actually three 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.760 ways that maggots clean a wound. But debridement, which is 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:58.200 getting in there and like just cleaning out, removing physically 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:02.760 removing um that dead material. That's like the key that 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:05.640 seems to be the key. And then there's also um 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:10.439 anti microbial activity like actually killing the bacteria that's killing 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:13.040 the flesh, leaving it cleaner than when they came in, Yeah, 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:18.880 which is amazing. And then even more astounding stimulating new growth, 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:22.600 like the act the presence of maggots in your wound 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:27.840 stimulates new tissue growth around your skin. It's the most 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:33.040 they're just like wonder creatures who knew. One of the 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:37.000 ways that they remove this dead tissue is just by 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:40.400 the nature of what their body is like. And they 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:44.399 have these little prickly spines all over their body that 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:48.359 act as a surgeon's rasp rasper or file what It 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:51.119 Basically just the fact that they're moving around on the 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:55.000 wound is going to like file the stuff down and 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:58.000 scrape the wound, which helps loosens it up. It's like 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:01.000 a plow. It burrows through this dieing and dead tissue 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.120 and it just, yeah, it loosens up. That's part one 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:07.240 of derived Part one. There's another part of it, which 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:11.480 is the digestive enzymes that they excrete and secrete. It's 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:15.639 called alimentary secretions and excretions a s C. It's basically 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:18.680 they're digestive juices, right, and they puke these up as 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:22.640 they're moving around and they just they just puke them 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:26.639 everywhere and it dissolves this flesh. Yeah. I remember in 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:29.239 the Body Farms episode we we talked about this one 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:32.760 one of the old classics. And that's why I said earlier. 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:35.720 They don't bite or choose something. They just liquefy it 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:38.320 and then suck it in. And this this A s 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:42.200 C stuff is so greedy that it liquefies more dead 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:46.119 flesh than the maggots can even consume, and they consume 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:49.240 quite a bit, Like you said, twenty five milligrams. That's 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:52.040 a lot for a little tiny maggot in one day. 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:54.479 But even more than that, they're liquefying even more of 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:57.800 this dead tissue. So that part of the process of 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:03.640 maggot debridemant therapy is draining out this liquefied necrotic tissue 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:08.840 that's become liquefied from the alimentary or the the A 0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:11.920 s C stuff. The digest events ons, right, So you've 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:15.840 got them burrowing around, you've got them puking into your wound, 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:21.760 liquefying the dead tissue, leaving pretty much entirely the living 0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:25.359 tissue alone, and then you just kind of drain out 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:29.040 the stuff that's that's in there. And the reason um 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:33.000 that maggots are considered by the FDA a medical device 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:37.119 rather than a drug is because the whole process of 0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:40.720 dibrid mint isn't just a reaction to the chemicals. It 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:43.640 is part of that mechanical movement of the maggots through 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:46.600 the wound. So it's a drug, it's a device. I 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:51.280 mean it's a device. Look at them, yea, and those 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:56.640 that the secretions are so potent. They have basically DNA 0:22:57.040 --> 0:23:01.880 destroying qualities, Like they not only just break down tissue, 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:05.560 they destroy the d N A. It's pretty amazing stuff 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:09.119 it is. Should we take another break? Yeah, I'm a 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:11.639 little excited. We probably should. Alright, I'm gonna go to 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:15.960 the vomitorium. Are you grossed out slightly? I am not 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:18.520 in the least. What does that say about me? I 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:23.159 don't know. You have a stronger stomach, but I don't necessarily, 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:25.399 I'm I'm just excited. All right, we'll go watch me 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:48.239 vomited at least. Okay, that will gross me out? All right? 0:23:48.320 --> 0:23:50.760 Well that was disgusting, it was It made me throw 0:23:50.840 --> 0:23:57.639 up in turn. Uh So here's a couple of questions. Um, 0:23:57.800 --> 0:24:01.400 does it hurt? Maybe a little bit at first. Yeah, 0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:04.080 I don't get the feeling that it's extremely painful. It 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:07.560 probably depends on the wound. Um, but it can the 0:24:07.600 --> 0:24:10.439 first few treatments can apparently be a little bit painful, right, 0:24:10.440 --> 0:24:13.360 And there's there's actually two mechanisms for the pain. One 0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:17.760 is that an open wound, right, and you have maggots 0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:20.080 crawling over the exposed nerves in your open wound. That's 0:24:20.119 --> 0:24:22.359 not gonna feel good, No, it won't. Uh. And then 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:25.240 number two, pressure in the wound can increase as the 0:24:25.280 --> 0:24:29.200 maggots get bigger from eating so much dead flesh. That's right. 0:24:29.359 --> 0:24:33.360 So yes, the the the cure to that is pain killers, which, frankly, 0:24:33.359 --> 0:24:36.040 if you have an open wound with exposed nerves, you 0:24:36.040 --> 0:24:38.440 should probably be on those anyway. Sure you will be, 0:24:38.840 --> 0:24:41.560 so it probably won't hurt because there'll be some sort 0:24:41.600 --> 0:24:45.439 of pain management going on, but you will still feel 0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:49.720 most likely unless the doctor completely numbs the area maggots 0:24:49.720 --> 0:24:52.359