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Speaker 1: Hello there, it's Josh and for this week's S Y

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Speaker 1: s K Selex, I've chosen maggots colon good for healing wounds.

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Speaker 1: Turns out, uh, and that is absolutely true. Um, I

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Speaker 1: really listened to all of our select episodes, and I

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Speaker 1: listen to this one, and I'm clearly excited in the episode.

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Speaker 1: But I was just as excited listening to it all

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Speaker 1: these years later, but five years after we released it. Um,

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Speaker 1: So I hope it excites you. It is groty, but

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Speaker 1: it's also pretty awesome. So enjoy slash prepared to be

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Speaker 1: grossed out. Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production

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Speaker 1: of My Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant,

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Speaker 1: and uh, no one, no one else is in here

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Speaker 1: with us yet again, because we've graduated to the point

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Speaker 1: where we don't even need a producer. We need so

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Speaker 1: body who presses record and leaves Yep, that's it, because

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Speaker 1: we're pros Yep, not p R O s E. P

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Speaker 1: R Oh that's right, we're not. But we are prosaic, yes,

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Speaker 1: but definitely not p r O apostrophees. Very few things

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Speaker 1: drive me crazier than that. And I know it's stupid

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Speaker 1: and pedantic, but to see, like somebody take out a

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Speaker 1: huge billboard or something and so a word has an

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Speaker 1: apostrophe that shouldn't prose. People say, like, leave it to

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Speaker 1: the pros and they'll put an apostrophe. Yes, and it's

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Speaker 1: it's that graphic designer should be, you know, doctor half

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Speaker 1: a day's paying maybe eight bucks. Something we want to

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Speaker 1: issue and you probably would get this from the title

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Speaker 1: of the episode, but we want to issue a meal warning.

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Speaker 1: Oh good thinking, because we've gotten complaints in the past

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Speaker 1: when people are eating and get sick listening to some

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Speaker 1: of these, Yeah, this would do it possibly for some people.

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Speaker 1: I was fine, I ate a runny yolk egg sandwich

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Speaker 1: while I white writer. Yeah right, it didn't bother me,

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Speaker 1: but I could totally see how it could be any people.

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Speaker 1: I also want to say, um, if it comes up,

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Speaker 1: do not go Google image search wound sloth. Well, I

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Speaker 1: just put do not Google image search maggot therapy at all. Okay, sure,

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Speaker 1: but definitely stay away from wound sloth s l o

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Speaker 1: U g H. Yeah, wow, it definitely don't look at

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Speaker 1: wound slough while you're eating. Yeah, okay, so that's all

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Speaker 1: out of the way. Yes, I predict we're going to

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Speaker 1: be kind of excited about this one. I'm feeling a

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Speaker 1: little pumped about it. Well, we did cover in uh

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Speaker 1: tin bizarre medical treatments uh leech therapy, which is still

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Speaker 1: being used, and I'm surprised this wasn't in that article.

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Speaker 1: To be honest, I am as well. But this gets

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Speaker 1: its own special deal, and well it should actually because

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Speaker 1: it's a pretty amazing thing. Um, we're talking about maggot therapy. Also,

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Speaker 1: by the way, yes it is they were awesome so

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Speaker 1: or they really or is it a band name? Well,

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Speaker 1: it's a band name to end all band names. There

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Speaker 1: probably was a band name that, So there's it's called

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Speaker 1: maggot therapy, maggot debridement therapy, larval therapy, or bio. There's

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Speaker 1: another one called I think like bio biodebridement or therapeutic

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Speaker 1: wound misses. Yeah, and that's basically all the all of them,

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Speaker 1: no matter what you call it, no matter how you

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Speaker 1: church it up. It is the application of live maggots

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Speaker 1: fly larva to purposefully to an open wound in order

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Speaker 1: to help that wound heal. Faster and better and cleaner

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Speaker 1: and everything. Dat punk said, Oh yeah, you know, should

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Speaker 1: we talk about some of the history of this stuff.

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Speaker 1: Let's just say that one more time. Okay. Maggot debridement

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Speaker 1: therapy is taking live maggots and put getting them in

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Speaker 1: an open wound on a human being or an animal.

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Speaker 1: It's used in veterinary medicine as well, wrapping it up

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Speaker 1: tight and letting them just eat the dead and dying

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Speaker 1: flesh of that wound while you get your foot tickled. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I would be so skiped out by this. I just

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Speaker 1: wanted to make sure that everybody knows exactly what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about, right, and goodbye to everyone everyone who fainted. Okay, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about the history, chuck, because this is um.

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Speaker 1: This is in use today, but it's actually pretty old. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's it's some say it's an even an

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Speaker 1: ancient tradition, like in places like Burma in Central America

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Speaker 1: with the Mayan's um. They were smart enough to know

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Speaker 1: that maggots do a pretty good job of consuming human flesh. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and it can be used for good in that regard. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: at some point I guess healers noticed like yef. People

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Speaker 1: who had maggots in their wounds tended to have wounds

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Speaker 1: heal U. And actually, as far as the Western literature goes,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly how um maggot therapy first finds its way,

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Speaker 1: first crawls into the medical literature is from a French

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Speaker 1: surgeon named Ambro Ambras Poare. Yeah, but how would you say,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't speak French Ambras even though

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Speaker 1: it doesn't have the little what is that an accent? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just the e. But he was a sixteenth century

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Speaker 1: surgeon and he noticed that, um, that people didn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: fall over dead if there was a maggot in the wound. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He was the first doctor to actually come out and say,

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Speaker 1: you know, I had this patient with a big skull wound,

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Speaker 1: and unbeknownst to me, there were maggots in there. I

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Speaker 1: saw them crawling out one day. And even though they

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Speaker 1: had a lot of bone. Um, the guy was great.

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Speaker 1: He healed like he lost a hand sized slab of

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Speaker 1: skull and he lived. And I think it might have

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Speaker 1: something to do with the maggots. And he presumably were

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Speaker 1: a helmet for the us of his life. Probably he

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Speaker 1: had a probably big soft skull there, I guess so. Uh.

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Speaker 1: That was followed in uh with the mid seventeen hundreds

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Speaker 1: by another Frenchy baron, Dominique Jean Laoie uh, and he said,

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Speaker 1: you know what, on this Egyptian expedition, Uh, these blue

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Speaker 1: fly maggots are actually doing the right thing and helping

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Speaker 1: us out. So it's almost like these doctors just noticed

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Speaker 1: this exactly and it meant enough to him that they

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Speaker 1: were like, I should probably write this down. This is

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Speaker 1: going to be my great contribution to medical history of

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Speaker 1: the history of science, right. Um. So it wasn't until

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Speaker 1: the uh, I guess, the Civil War that a doctor

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Speaker 1: actually said I'm going to purposefully put maggots in a

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Speaker 1: wound and see what happens. And that doctor was John

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Speaker 1: Forney Zacharias. He probably didn't tell his patient that. I

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Speaker 1: think probably that he was just like, just bite down

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Speaker 1: on this brooms and the other way. Do you want

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Speaker 1: to lose your foot or do you want to try

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Speaker 1: something really weird? Well, supposedly in studies of people, modern

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Speaker 1: patients who are offered this therapy say yes to it. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because I think that's what it comes down to. You

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Speaker 1: it's a last resort. Basically, it's not the first thing

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Speaker 1: they offer, not necessarily. Um So, Anyway, doctor Zacharias um

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Speaker 1: Hey had a great quote. He said, during my service

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Speaker 1: in the hospital at Danville, Virginia, I first used maggots

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Speaker 1: to remove the decayed tissue in Hospital Gang Green, and

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Speaker 1: with my eminent satisfaction, in a single day, they would

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Speaker 1: clean a wound much better than any agents we had

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Speaker 1: at our command. I used them afterwards at various places.

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Speaker 1: I am sure I saved many lives by their use,

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Speaker 1: escaped sept to semia, and had rapid recoveries period. End quote.

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Speaker 1: Pretty great. Yeah. So he was a huge believer and

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Speaker 1: not just a passive observer like people who came before him.

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Speaker 1: He said, Yeah, I put maggots on wounds and it helps,

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Speaker 1: That's right. And uh, people experimented with it for a

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Speaker 1: little while until um a guy named Louis Pasteur and

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Speaker 1: Robert Coke came along, uh microbiologists and germ theorists that

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Speaker 1: basically said, you know, this is this is disgusting. We

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Speaker 1: might want to not do this. Yeah, because they're dirty.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and it's true. Maggots naturally in the wild

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Speaker 1: carry lots of pathogens with them that UM can infect

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Speaker 1: us in other ways, can make a wound worse, can

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Speaker 1: actually kill you. So this the idea behind germ theory

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Speaker 1: as far as maggots goes. Right. But UM, it seems

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Speaker 1: like there's this long history of necessity and disgusted with

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Speaker 1: maggot therapy that kind of wayne ebbs and flows right,

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Speaker 1: and necessity rears its head on the battlefield. It did

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Speaker 1: in the Civil War, and it also did in World

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Speaker 1: War One. There was a surgeon UM named William S.

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Speaker 1: Bayer and he was working on the front lines in France,

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Speaker 1: and he used maggots on stomach wounds and open fractures,

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Speaker 1: and he found, to his great satisfaction, just like Dr

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Speaker 1: Zacharias and the other before him, that this stuff actually worked. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And he actually said, you know what, I have some

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Speaker 1: further advancements. UM, maybe we should put a bandage over

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Speaker 1: this thing so it doesn't completely discussed the patient. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And let me UM put bandages around the wound, so

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Speaker 1: they don't start creeping onto the healthy flesh and doing

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Speaker 1: damage or just itching you or creeping you out further

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Speaker 1: right exactly, UM, which are still in use today. These techniques.

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Speaker 1: He also pioneered another huge technique, and this is after

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Speaker 1: the war was over. Ten years later, when he was

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Speaker 1: back at Johns Hopkins UM. He he pioneered another really

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Speaker 1: important technique, and that was using sterilized um maggots. Like

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Speaker 1: germ free maggots. They were raised as eggs in a

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Speaker 1: sterile environment and so when they were introduced to the wounds,

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Speaker 1: they weren't carrying these pathogens anymore. And he found this

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Speaker 1: is the jackpot. Now you can use maggots from now on.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And there was a big boom in the

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Speaker 1: thirties up until the mid nineteen forties. Uh, three more

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Speaker 1: than three hundred American hospitals. Uh, we're using maggot treatment,

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Speaker 1: maggot therapy. And then in uh antiseptics came along, or

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Speaker 1: you know, new antiseptics and they said, you know what,

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Speaker 1: maybe there was another lull in the use of maggot theory. Right,

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Speaker 1: Necessity didn't didn't spur this stuff, and it was they

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Speaker 1: went back to just being gross again. There was a

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Speaker 1: guy um who by the eighties wrote what what this

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Speaker 1: one article calls the majority opinion. Fortunately, maggot therapy is

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Speaker 1: now relegated to a historical backwater of interest more for

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Speaker 1: its bizarre nature than its effect on the course of

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Speaker 1: medical science. A therapy the demise of which no one

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Speaker 1: is likely to mourn. That's just that kind of Western

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Speaker 1: medicine hubris, where like we can do anything except everything,

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Speaker 1: you know. Uh, that's right. And in the nineteen nineties, UM,

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Speaker 1: a dude named Ronald Sherman and Edward peck Or basically

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Speaker 1: champion the technique again and kind of brought it into

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Speaker 1: the modern age. Yeah, and still very much is. Um.

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Speaker 1: Ronald Sherman is one of the first, I think, to

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Speaker 1: receive a license to produce sterile maggots for use as

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Speaker 1: medical devices. Um. And there's another guy over in uh

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Speaker 1: the UK named John Church um who who brought the

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Speaker 1: maggot their maggot therapy into the four So it was

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Speaker 1: an ancient thing, it was. It's found to be disgusting,

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Speaker 1: it's found to be useful, it's found to be disgusting,

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Speaker 1: it's found ways you can make it better. It's found

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Speaker 1: to be disgusting. And then now that this idea of

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Speaker 1: complimentary medicine is is kind of regaining some traction again. UM,

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Speaker 1: I think it's here to stay. Though I think so too,

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Speaker 1: unless someone comes along in ten years is you know

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Speaker 1: what it's disgusting, Well, you know the chuck. I mean

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Speaker 1: probably what we're seeing is the next thing that will

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Speaker 1: happen is there will be some huge leaps, some huge

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Speaker 1: development in science, and science will get its tackles up

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Speaker 1: again and great about itself and we don't need any

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Speaker 1: of that stupid nastiness. And then we'll find that Nope,

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Speaker 1: you still can't beat good old fashioned maggots. And that's

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Speaker 1: that should be the title of this thing. You can't

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Speaker 1: beat good old fashioned maggots for healing a wound that

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Speaker 1: won't heal otherwise. It's a great title. So you want

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Speaker 1: to take a break, Uh, yeah, let's do it, and

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Speaker 1: we'll go um treat our own wounds and we'll be

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Speaker 1: back shortly. All right, Let's talk about diabetes for a second. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: more than twenty three million Americans are affected with diabetes.

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Speaker 1: And one thing that can happen, uh is nerve damage,

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Speaker 1: especially in the extremities the hands and feet and the

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Speaker 1: toes and the and the fingers. Your blood vessels become

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Speaker 1: hard and they don't circulate the blood like you need.

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Speaker 1: That can lead to open sores called ulcers, which can

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Speaker 1: become infections, which can spread to nearby bone, which can

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Speaker 1: lead to amputation. Yeah, and all of all this is

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Speaker 1: just from a prolonged exposure to high levels of blood

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Speaker 1: sugar and they're not sure how it can do it.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, the blood, the blood vessels not helping pump

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Speaker 1: blood very well get nutrients or your tissue can die.

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Speaker 1: But also that neuropathy that dead and nerves cell um

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Speaker 1: that actually makes it hard for you to notice. If

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Speaker 1: you have like a really bad ulcer on the bottom

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Speaker 1: of your foot, you can't feel it. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: you don't get treatment early enough, so it can get

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Speaker 1: an infection, can get out of hand, and when it

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Speaker 1: spreads to bone that's called osteo myelitis. That's problematic because

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Speaker 1: that very quickly will lead to an amputation. And there's

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Speaker 1: some pretty shocking stats here from this article that Tom wrote,

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Speaker 1: Um about this sheave jam Yeah nice, it's yeah for sure, Um,

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Speaker 1: But about amputations from diabetes, Yes, seventy thousand to foot

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Speaker 1: and leg amputations each year in the United States alone,

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Speaker 1: and uh they say around the world, they estimate every

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Speaker 1: thirty seconds someone gets a limb cut off because of diabetes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's sad. Yeah, it really is, and we should. We

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Speaker 1: will do one on diabetes for sure. Oh yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: surprised we haven't already. Um. But the so amputation is

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Speaker 1: used to halt the progress of an infection, and that's

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Speaker 1: usually the last resort. But what's what Tom points out

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Speaker 1: is that there are plenty of doctors around the world

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Speaker 1: I imagine that aren't aware that you can use maggots

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Speaker 1: or have ever done it before. And if you are

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Speaker 1: facing an amputation from say like a wound, a persistent wound,

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Speaker 1: a chronic wound that won't heal, Um, you may want

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Speaker 1: to suggest maggots to your doctor. You may have to

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Speaker 1: actually take this the the initiative on this one and say,

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Speaker 1: let's make sure the amputation is the absolute last resort.

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Speaker 1: Let's see if we can put one more resort in

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Speaker 1: there before then I'm willing to let maggots crawl inside

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Speaker 1: my body in this wounds open wound if you're willing

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Speaker 1: to apply them. And they uh, like most doctors love

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Speaker 1: hearing when patients suggest treatments. Oh they do. They love feedback.

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Speaker 1: They love to be guided in their diagnoses and prognoses. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love it. That's a tough jam. I get it.

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Speaker 1: Doctors are frustrated a lot of these days with self

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Speaker 1: diagnosis and online doctoring. But you should also be your

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Speaker 1: own advocate. We can't be in that before. Yeah it's

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Speaker 1: your leg. Yeah you want to keep your leg. You

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Speaker 1: tell that doctor to go get some maggots. You're going

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Speaker 1: to replace them with the doctor who will. I can

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Speaker 1: find a guy, Yeah, I can get a guy by

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Speaker 1: noon that'll put maggots on that wound. And actually there's

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Speaker 1: a there's a group I think Ronald Sherman, the guy

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Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier who's like the the US champion of

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Speaker 1: maggot therapy. UM. It's there's this group called the B

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Speaker 1: Turf Foundation B T e Er Foundation, UM, and they

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Speaker 1: have all sorts of resources for people in that very situation,

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Speaker 1: like how to talk to your doctor, UM that if

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Speaker 1: your insurance won't cover it, let them know, because they

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Speaker 1: say insurance actually most insurance covers maggot therapy, but most

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Speaker 1: insurance claims people are not aware of that, so you

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Speaker 1: may get denied at first. And here's how to talk

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Speaker 1: to your insurance company. That's it really is. That beats

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Speaker 1: going to your doctor and saying well, you know what

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Speaker 1: Josh and Chuck said. He you're not gonna like hearing this,

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Speaker 1: right because you think you know it all doctor, please

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Speaker 1: take a sleep and be put maggots on my feet, right.

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Speaker 1: And and that's the other thing too, I mean, like

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Speaker 1: we wouldn't be suggesting this and the Better Foundation probably

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be such advocates for it if it didn't work

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Speaker 1: so amazingly. Well, it's study after study, and we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about the details of it, but there's so many studies

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Speaker 1: out there. Um Again. Sherman, who agreed, is an advocate,

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Speaker 1: but in a pure reviewed journal published a survey of

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Speaker 1: studies that he could find on maggot therapy, and it's

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Speaker 1: very clear that it works really really well, and not

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Speaker 1: only necessarily um as a means of last resort, but

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Speaker 1: even just compared to the standard of care using like

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Speaker 1: hydrogell or other things that you might use to treat

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Speaker 1: a chronic wound. Maggots destroy it, They leave it in

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Speaker 1: the dust. Yeah. And if it doesn't work, it's not

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Speaker 1: gonna hurt anything. Yeah. Yeah, it just puts off how

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Speaker 1: much longer before they amputate your foot? Pretty much? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Uh so what will happen is they will Well, let's

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Speaker 1: get into this a little bit. Um, there are four

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Speaker 1: differ friend, and you where did you find this? Was

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Speaker 1: this a a research paper? Yeah? This is by Ronald

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Speaker 1: Sherman Mechanisms of maggot induced wound healing colin What do

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Speaker 1: we know and where do we go from here? It

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Speaker 1: was in the journal Evidence Based, Complimentary and Alternative Medicine

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and fourteen, that's right, And he describes

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Speaker 1: four different phases of basically healing a wound um homeostasis, inflammation, ploriferate. Man,

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Speaker 1: I'm so bad at that one. Oh yeah, keep it coming, proliferation,

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Speaker 1: nice going, and uh remodeling and maturing. And what happens

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Speaker 1: is the cells get to work, they recruit other cells,

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Speaker 1: they alter their activities and basically say, let's get to

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Speaker 1: work cleaning and uh, well on all four of these

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Speaker 1: stages to help heal the wound. Yeah, and at any

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Speaker 1: any one of those stages, Um that the next process

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Speaker 1: can stall out. Um. Normally it stalls out at inflamation

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Speaker 1: ation because the infection gets out of hand in the

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Speaker 1: body can't fight off the infection faster than it's laying

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Speaker 1: The extracellular matrix for the new cells to be rebuilt,

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Speaker 1: the new tissue to recro um. And that's that's it's

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Speaker 1: a common thing that leads to chronic wounds. Yes, they

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Speaker 1: just won't heal. And that's where maggots are really really

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Speaker 1: useful to basically interrupt that stall and get the car

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Speaker 1: moving again in the right direction. It's exactly right, they

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Speaker 1: kick started. Uh. So debridemant is removing dead tissue, and

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Speaker 1: that is really where maggots excel um. They said, Uh,

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Speaker 1: in here, each maggot can chew, Well they don't exactly chew,

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Speaker 1: which we'll get to. Uh. They remove twenty five milligrams

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Speaker 1: of necrotic material dead flesh, uh, in just twenty four hours. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's pretty good. Yeah, and uh, there's there's actually three

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Speaker 1: ways that maggots clean a wound. But debridement, which is

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Speaker 1: getting in there and like just cleaning out, removing physically

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Speaker 1: removing um that dead material. That's like the key that

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Speaker 1: seems to be the key. And then there's also um

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Speaker 1: anti microbial activity like actually killing the bacteria that's killing

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Speaker 1: the flesh, leaving it cleaner than when they came in, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is amazing. And then even more astounding stimulating new growth,

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Speaker 1: like the act the presence of maggots in your wound

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Speaker 1: stimulates new tissue growth around your skin. It's the most

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Speaker 1: they're just like wonder creatures who knew. One of the

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Speaker 1: ways that they remove this dead tissue is just by

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Speaker 1: the nature of what their body is like. And they

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Speaker 1: have these little prickly spines all over their body that

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Speaker 1: act as a surgeon's rasp rasper or file what It

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Speaker 1: Basically just the fact that they're moving around on the

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Speaker 1: wound is going to like file the stuff down and

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Speaker 1: scrape the wound, which helps loosens it up. It's like

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Speaker 1: a plow. It burrows through this dieing and dead tissue

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Speaker 1: and it just, yeah, it loosens up. That's part one

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Speaker 1: of derived Part one. There's another part of it, which

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Speaker 1: is the digestive enzymes that they excrete and secrete. It's

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Speaker 1: called alimentary secretions and excretions a s C. It's basically

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Speaker 1: they're digestive juices, right, and they puke these up as

348
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Speaker 1: they're moving around and they just they just puke them

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Speaker 1: everywhere and it dissolves this flesh. Yeah. I remember in

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Speaker 1: the Body Farms episode we we talked about this one

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Speaker 1: one of the old classics. And that's why I said earlier.

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Speaker 1: They don't bite or choose something. They just liquefy it

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Speaker 1: and then suck it in. And this this A s

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00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,200
Speaker 1: C stuff is so greedy that it liquefies more dead

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Speaker 1: flesh than the maggots can even consume, and they consume

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Speaker 1: quite a bit, Like you said, twenty five milligrams. That's

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Speaker 1: a lot for a little tiny maggot in one day.

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Speaker 1: But even more than that, they're liquefying even more of

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Speaker 1: this dead tissue. So that part of the process of

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Speaker 1: maggot debridemant therapy is draining out this liquefied necrotic tissue

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Speaker 1: that's become liquefied from the alimentary or the the A

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Speaker 1: s C stuff. The digest events ons, right, So you've

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Speaker 1: got them burrowing around, you've got them puking into your wound,

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Speaker 1: liquefying the dead tissue, leaving pretty much entirely the living

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Speaker 1: tissue alone, and then you just kind of drain out

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Speaker 1: the stuff that's that's in there. And the reason um

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Speaker 1: that maggots are considered by the FDA a medical device

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Speaker 1: rather than a drug is because the whole process of

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Speaker 1: dibrid mint isn't just a reaction to the chemicals. It

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Speaker 1: is part of that mechanical movement of the maggots through

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Speaker 1: the wound. So it's a drug, it's a device. I

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Speaker 1: mean it's a device. Look at them, yea, and those

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Speaker 1: that the secretions are so potent. They have basically DNA

374
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Speaker 1: destroying qualities, Like they not only just break down tissue,

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00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 1: they destroy the d N A. It's pretty amazing stuff

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Speaker 1: it is. Should we take another break? Yeah, I'm a

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00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,639
Speaker 1: little excited. We probably should. Alright, I'm gonna go to

378
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Speaker 1: the vomitorium. Are you grossed out slightly? I am not

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Speaker 1: in the least. What does that say about me? I

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Speaker 1: don't know. You have a stronger stomach, but I don't necessarily,

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00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 1: I'm I'm just excited. All right, we'll go watch me

382
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Speaker 1: vomited at least. Okay, that will gross me out? All right?

383
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Speaker 1: Well that was disgusting, it was It made me throw

384
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Speaker 1: up in turn. Uh So here's a couple of questions. Um,

385
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 1: does it hurt? Maybe a little bit at first. Yeah,

386
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: I don't get the feeling that it's extremely painful. It

387
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: probably depends on the wound. Um, but it can the

388
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 1: first few treatments can apparently be a little bit painful, right,

389
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Speaker 1: And there's there's actually two mechanisms for the pain. One

390
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: is that an open wound, right, and you have maggots

391
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Speaker 1: crawling over the exposed nerves in your open wound. That's

392
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 1: not gonna feel good, No, it won't. Uh. And then

393
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: number two, pressure in the wound can increase as the

394
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: maggots get bigger from eating so much dead flesh. That's right.

395
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Speaker 1: So yes, the the the cure to that is pain killers, which, frankly,

396
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: if you have an open wound with exposed nerves, you

397
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 1: should probably be on those anyway. Sure you will be,

398
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: so it probably won't hurt because there'll be some sort

399
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Speaker 1: of pain management going on, but you will still feel

400
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: most likely unless the doctor completely numbs the area maggots

401
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: crawling around inside the wound. See, that's what That's the

402
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 1: part that gets me is actually thinking about undergoing this

403
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: therapy myself is what gets me, not like seeing it

404
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,400
Speaker 1: or reading about it, but thinking about having an open

405
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: wound on the bottom of my foot and having maggots

406
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: creeping around in there. See. The thing is I think

407
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: anybody would feel that way. There's very few included myself.

408
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: I'm not grossed out by this, but I wouldn't want

409
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: maggots talking wound. But I think if your backs against

410
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 1: the wall, uh that, or you lose your foot, I try.

411
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,719
Speaker 1: I would definitely try. I think as people would apparently

412
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: man and I would demand some high quality drugs. And

413
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: they also have um what is it called amnesiotics to

414
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: make you forget about so you can't form memories while

415
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: it's happening. So maybe that would be a nice thing

416
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 1: to do too. So the other question is can you

417
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: just use any kind of maggot and the answer is no.

418
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 1: What they found is the most useful is the larva

419
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Speaker 1: of the green blow fly. And like we said earlier,

420
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Speaker 1: these things are now grown just sort of like the

421
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: medical leeches there shipped and sterile containers, uh as if

422
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: it were medicine, even though it's a device. And the

423
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: B T. E. R. Foundation they go into a lot

424
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 1: about this like could anybody do this? And they say, well, no,

425
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: because you need a prescription. It's an FDA control yourself.

426
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 1: But they say anybody who can read can basically follow

427
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: the instructions on the package. I wouldn't, I mean, I

428
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: wouldn't advise that as your non doctor. Sure, I'm not

429
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 1: saying that either, but I mean this may be your

430
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: doctor's first time to their Their point was is it's

431
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: not it's not difficult. Just follow the instructions on the packet.

432
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: If you win. Your doctor though, he got the maggots

433
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: out and he put on his bifocals and was like,

434
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,479
Speaker 1: all right, let's see how to do this right or

435
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: like he tears the package open. They go everywhere you have,

436
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: like Jerry Lewis as a doctor. Uh oh. But although

437
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: they do say, um, you can't just load it up

438
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: with maggots. There should be no more than eight maggots

439
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: per square centimeter. Yeah, I saw five to eight. And

440
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 1: so when you have the maggots applied to your um wound,

441
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: they're going to make sure that the healthy area around

442
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: the wound is covered up so the maggots can't get

443
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 1: to it, which goes back to World War two. Yeah,

444
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: they're going to cover it, cover up the wound after

445
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: they apply the maggots five to eight per square centimeter,

446
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: like you say, and they're going to cover it up

447
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 1: so they can't wander off because maggots like to leave

448
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: before their work is done. Um TV, they're full pretty much, um,

449
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: but they can still eat more if you'll keep them

450
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: in there so they will cover up. They'll put the

451
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: maggots in five to eight cover it up with this

452
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: bandage and basically they will just sit there and eat

453
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: for between forty eight and seventy two hours, and then

454
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: the bandage will be removed. The maggots will then sadly

455
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 1: be incinerated or put into an autoclave or put into

456
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 1: a plasma gas of fire, or bronzed and hung on

457
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: your wall for real, like an ant farm. Yeah, because

458
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: it's like, thank you for this great contribution to saving

459
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: my foot, Now go be autoclave today. I would name

460
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 1: them and save them and preserve them. Um, you'd be

461
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: violating I'm sure all sorts of medical waste laws, but

462
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: who cares and so and then that's that's what's called

463
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 1: the treatment cycle. And most patients UH supposedly go between

464
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 1: two and four treatment cycles. And again, while this is happening,

465
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: what's going on is the maggots are debriding the dead flesh,

466
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: they're liquefying it, they're eating it, and they're also disinfecting

467
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: it and stimulating growth. Right, pretty amazing. So with the

468
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: with this, with the disinfecting, they figured that there was

469
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: some sort of gut flora that the maggots have that

470
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: prevents them from being infected by micropoil. That would make

471
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: sense because they're in that riting flesh as well and

472
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: they're thriving, right, So what gives Well, it turns out

473
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: that there are a couple of um types of I'm

474
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: not quite sure what what kind of um bacteria they are,

475
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: but they are. Oh that's not true. The proteus mirabilious

476
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: is a type of symbiotic microbe that you find in

477
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: the gut of a maggot, right, And this thing just

478
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: destroys microbial life. So it's killing the bacteria that's causing

479
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: this infection in your wound. But there's something that that maggots.

480
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: This is yet another thing. So think about it, Chuck,

481
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: Like you said, maggots, The very structure of a maggot

482
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: body dibrides the wound. That's amazing. This maggot anti microbial

483
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: stuff not only does it kill microbes, it destroys the

484
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: thing that naturally protects microbes, which is called biofilm. Yeah,

485
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: we've talked about biofilm a lot on this show, and um,

486
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: it's basically it's basically a film, like a literal film,

487
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: like a They call it a polymeric matrix. But the

488
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: easiest way to say in Layman's terment is it's a film, right,

489
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: It's like a protective coding. Yeah. And the little spiny bodies,

490
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: like one way they get rid of the thing is

491
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: by roughing it up, And that's exactly what the little

492
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: bodies do, right, And that's part of surgical I've meant

493
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: with like um, like going in there and scrubbing a

494
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: wound um with I don't know, steel wool or something

495
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: like that that will break up the biofilm. It's also

496
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:15,479
Speaker 1: must be awfully painful, right. Maggots naturally can destroy not

497
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: just the bacteria but also the biofilm that protects it

498
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: to which makes them extremely handy with things like MERSA

499
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: and other antibiotic resistant um bacteria and all kinds of ulcers, right,

500
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: not like internal ulcers, but the open wound kind right,

501
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: exactly from diabetes, from bed sores um. And there's been

502
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: a lot of studies of people with bed sores that

503
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: have found that maggots help those kind of ulcers tremendously,

504
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: so Uh, let's talk about this one study or a

505
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: couple of studies. Actually, UM, there was one study of

506
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: spinal cord injury patients that had non healing ulcers, which

507
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: is the problem. And they monitored them over three to

508
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: four weeks UM, and they were getting regular wound care

509
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: at the same time, like sometimes it's used in conjunction

510
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: I think usually is used in conjunction with like standard care. UH.

511
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: And they found that uh, after three or four weeks

512
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: of maggot therapy, tissue quality and wound size were ressessed

513
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: weekly and they found that debridement was achieved in less

514
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: than fourteen days an average of ten days, and none

515
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: of the control group wounds were more than fifty dibrided

516
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: after a month. A month, not even half dibrided. None

517
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: of the wounds, not half the wounds were divided, None

518
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: of the wounds were even half dibrided after a month

519
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: chuck of the control group. Yes, amazing where they didn't

520
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: use the maggots. Yes, that's that's objectively amazing. It is.

521
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: And then they did a larger clinical trial and found uh,

522
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: this time they got two hundred and sixty three subjects,

523
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: which is pretty good for this kind of rare treatment

524
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: for uh. And they found that um, using the hydrogel

525
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: which you mentioned earlier, compression dressings, just the standard care,

526
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: that was the control. Yeah, that's obvious. The control. They

527
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: differed significantly between the three groups. Um, what was the

528
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: third group? The third group used bio bags, which are

529
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: like it's like a little pouch. You said it was

530
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: like a rav healthy Yeah, and it's filled with live maggots,

531
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: but it prevents them from burrowing. All it is is

532
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,479
Speaker 1: using their chemical secretions. Yeah, I don't That to me

533
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: is just like why go halfway? Right? Exactly? Well, a

534
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: lot of people are like, I don't want a maggot

535
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: crawling in my wound, but a bag of them is

536
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: fine doing the shake shake near my wound. Right. So, um,

537
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: it actually has been shown to be not nearly as

538
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: effective as just letting what's called free range maggots burrow

539
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: through the wound. So they found the media time for

540
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: debryment was fourteen days with free range, twenty eight days

541
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: with the bagged ravioli, and seventy two days for the control.

542
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: Yeah that's pretty amazing. Yeah, Like, I I don't know,

543
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: I don't think it should be a last resort. You know,

544
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: I agree, and I think that increasingly it's becoming less

545
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: and less of the last resort because I mean, you

546
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: can compare it to the control, Like the standard of

547
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: care took seventy two days for the wound to be divided,

548
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,719
Speaker 1: free range maggots fourteen days. That to me says that

549
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: free range maggots top the standard of care as it

550
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: stands right now. But like you say, there's a lot

551
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: of people who are saying this is just a last resort.

552
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: The next thing we're gonna do is amputate your foot.

553
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: But let's try this one last time. Or in the

554
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: case of persistent infections from like MERSA, where just antibiotics

555
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,479
Speaker 1: just don't work, let's let's try maggots and see if

556
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: we can fix it. And maggots do work. There was

557
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: a study that found that of thirteen people treated who

558
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: had MERSA treated with maggots alone, twelve of the thirteen

559
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: had complete recovery and wound healing um from a mercer infection.

560
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: Mercu's nasty stuff too. Yeah, I think did we do

561
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: what I'm MERSA. I feel like we did. I know

562
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: we've talked about it. I don't know if it got

563
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: its own show though may have been in the should

564
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: we outlaw anti bacterial soap episode? Well, there's been a

565
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: lot of them, almost eight hundred. Uh you got anything else?

566
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: Surely I do, but I guess not. Um. Oh yeah,

567
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: Well there's one other thing we kept kind of teasing it.

568
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 1: It actually stimulates growth. A couple of studies have found

569
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: that the presence of maggots um produce more blood vessel

570
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: redevelopment and tissue redevelopment than maggots not being present. So

571
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: something about them actually stimulates tissue growth and blood vessel growth,

572
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: which promotes wound healing even more. Up with maggots. Up

573
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: with maggots, indeed, Man, I love them. I'm so psyched

574
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: about maggots right now. Well, it definitely changes the way

575
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:52,800
Speaker 1: you think about them. Like, next time you see a

576
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: the dead squirrel that you've killed, they're clearly trying to

577
00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: bring it back to life. Yeah, and you see the

578
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: maggot you can. You don't think that's disgusting. You just

579
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: think those are little things doing their thing, doing their thing.

580
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 1: Little things doing their thing. Now I'm going to autoclave them,

581
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: that's right. Uh. If you want to know more about

582
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 1: maggot therapy, you can type those words in the search

583
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: bar at how stuff forks dot com. And since I

584
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: said search parts time forward listener, I'm gonna call this

585
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 1: taken to task somewhat over a term. Guys, I want

586
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,879
Speaker 1: to say you are my favorite podcast by far. I've

587
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: been listening since you were just a little five minute blurbs.

588
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: Oh man, you sure have grown up. I've never written

589
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: in before, but felt a head to comment on Josh's

590
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: statement that climate change was for global warming was settled science. No,

591
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: I'm not disputing the data that shows an increase in

592
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: global temperatures. While you can certainly argue it's accuracy, especially

593
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: for older data, it's still just data. It's not science.

594
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: The part that gets me upset about the term settled sciences.

595
00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: By definition, science is never settled, and that's an all caps.

596
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: I think we talked a lot about this is the

597
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: scientific method of this stuff. You guys actually did a

598
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,879
Speaker 1: podcast on the scientific method, so you should know that

599
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: at best you can show a particular theory is supported

600
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: by existing data and not contradicted by anything we know

601
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: of at the time. But there's a reason that ultra

602
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,479
Speaker 1: successful theories like Newton's theory of gravity hind science. Theory

603
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: of relativity are still theories. They could be completely discredited

604
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: by a single piece of data contradicting them. So the

605
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 1: whole idea of taking a body of fact saying it's

606
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,919
Speaker 1: settled is far more political concept than scientific one. While

607
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: people with various viewpoints in the subject would like to

608
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: have someplace to plant their ideological flag, saying something is

609
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: indisputedly true as opposed to probably false is simply not

610
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: something science and the scientific method is equipped to do.

611
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: In short, science has never settled. You cannot simply say

612
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: this is true, move on. That's not how it works.

613
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 1: And that is from Spencer Carpenter right here in our

614
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 1: own Smyrna, Georgia. We're not in St. Well, I mean

615
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: it's it's nearby. What I just did is what Spencer

616
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: just did. Spencer, I was using a literary device. I

617
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 1: was actually using the same type of argument that science

618
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: that non science climate deniers use against scientists. I was

619
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:21,280
Speaker 1: basically saying, like, it's done, drop it. There's enough science

620
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: there to say you're you're you're wrong. Let's move on

621
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 1: and just all accept that climate science is going it's

622
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,919
Speaker 1: a layoff. So that was a clever ruse. It wasn't

623
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: a ruse at all. It was it was just I

624
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,240
Speaker 1: was not being literal like apparently, which is what Spencer

625
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: deals in literal terms. Uh, if you want to take

626
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: us to test because you are overly literal, we want

627
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: to hear from you. You can tweet to us at

628
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: s y s K podcast. You can join us on Facebook,

629
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: dot com, slash Stuff you Should Know. You can send

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00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 1: us an email to Stuff podcast that how Stuff works

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Speaker 1: dot com and has always joined us at our home

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Speaker 1: on the web. Stuff you Should Know dot Com. Stuff

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Speaker 1: you Should Know is a production of I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart

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Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

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Speaker 1: favorite shows. H