1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: A high school girl straight A's a hockey star across Star, 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:10,960 Speaker 1: is found brutally murdered and buried in a shallow grave 3 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: at a local park, Lincoln Park. Her boyfriend is soon 4 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: identified and he's convicted of the murder. But now after 5 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: a high profile podcast called Cereal insists that he's innocent, 6 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: is he getting a new trial and set to walk? 7 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: To add insult to injury the victim, Little hay hay 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: Lee's family cannot speak English. They and she have no voice. 9 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: Well you know what they're getting one, They're getting a voice, 10 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: Lady Justice, are you listening? A and E Thursday night, 11 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: eleven pm. We want justice for hay Lee and that 12 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: means to many court watchers that her killer, add Non 13 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: Sayed stays behind bars. Thursday night, eleven PM. A and 14 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: E Grace versus Abrams. Please join us Crime Stories with 15 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace On Sirius X seven Triumph one two. A 16 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: man ends up dead on his farm. No one knows 17 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: for about two weeks because he doesn't show up to 18 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: his job what happened. He's shot multiple times and guess 19 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: what's missing? Over eleven thousand dollars from his checking account 20 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: and his wife Lois Reese, a platinum blonde who then 21 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: turns up a at a casino having a good old time. 22 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: And then in Florida and Fort Myers, she spotted on 23 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: closed circuit TV surveillance video at Smoking Oyster Brewery chatting 24 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: up another woman at the bar. And again she's having 25 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: a great time. They're drinking, they're talking, they're laughing. She's 26 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: really holding court at this bar, Smoking Oyster Brewery. It 27 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 1: just sounds like a good time, right. Well, that woman 28 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: Pam hutcheson. Guess what she bears an amazing similarity a 29 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: semblance to Lois, whose husband happens to end up dead 30 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: on a worm farm and lo and behold. Just hours later, 31 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: Pam ends up dead too, missing her car and all 32 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,959 Speaker 1: of her identity. That's right, Lois Reese on the run, 33 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: assuming her doppel ganger's identity. I Nancy Grace, this is 34 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I'm gonna 35 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: go first to John Limley, John Crime Stories investigative reporter, 36 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: start at the beginning and give me a capsulization and 37 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: of Lois Reese's rampage. Nancy. It was a month ago 38 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: that David Reese's business partner called authorities to ask them 39 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: to check on him. The partners said no one at 40 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: work had seen David Reese in more than two weeks, 41 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,839 Speaker 1: and after an exhaustive search at his home, they then 42 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: went to his farm and that is where they discover 43 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: David Reese's body, and he had been shot multiple times 44 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: and they weren't able to determine how long he had 45 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: been dead over that past two weeks, and another person 46 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: was missing. They could not find his wife, Lois Now. 47 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: They very quickly learned that Lois may have been at 48 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: a casino in Iowa, but she wasn't there when they 49 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: went looking for now. From there, she was believed to 50 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: have made a beeline for Florida. That where investigators alleged 51 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: that she killed fifty nine year old Pamela Hutchinson of Bradenton, Florida, 52 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: who was in town actually to be with a friend 53 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: who had just lost her husband and they were going 54 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 1: to spread his ashes in the water there in Fort Myers, Florida. 55 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: Pam was really only planning on staying in Fort Myers 56 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: a couple of days, and presumably towards the end of 57 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: her trip, she stopped by to grab a bite at 58 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 1: smoking Oyster brewery just a couple of blocks from her condo, 59 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: and it's there that she meets and strikes up a 60 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: conversation with a visitor in the city, a woman that 61 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: we now know was Lois Reese. It's around the same 62 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: time that Pam's family and friends noticed something rather odd. 63 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: Pam is really big on posting on Facebook, and those 64 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: Facebook posts come to an abrupt halt. How do we 65 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: know joining me Alexis to restart from writer online? Come? 66 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: How do we know that it was Lois Reese that 67 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 1: found her doppelganger and assumed Pam Hutchinson's identity after killing her. 68 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: How do we know she ever made it to Pam 69 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: Hutchinson's condo. Well, the police have evidence that she was there. 70 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: She stole Pam's credit cards, her bank account information, and 71 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: even her I D and leaves her condo and goes out, 72 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: goes to the bank and gets five thousand dollars out 73 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: from the bank cash by using her Pamela's I D. 74 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 1: I guess they the teller didn't even notice that they 75 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: weren't They weren't the same person. So she's caught on 76 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: camera there, they see her, they've got her, and then 77 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: she goes on a nationwide what what's the word spending spree? 78 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: I guess so because she's got all this money from 79 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: her dead victims. To John Limley. There's also closed circuit 80 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: video I think relating to the condo. Yes, Uh, this 81 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: is before she gets to the condo. It's thanks to 82 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: surveillance video there at the Staunt that we know how 83 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: and when the paths of Lois Reefs and Pam Hudgetson 84 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: first crossed. We see them seated at the bar chatting, 85 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: having a great time. Lois was on the run and 86 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: she saw her chance to gain more time and gain 87 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: a possible cover. Lois realized that she and this woman 88 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: at the bar, Pam Hutchinson, looked a lot alike. Her 89 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: plan was to assume this woman's identity. So Lois quickly 90 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: befriends Pam, and somehow, we're not exactly sure how, finnagles 91 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 1: her way into Pam's condo. Two days later, after a 92 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: man staying in the room above where Pam was staying 93 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: started smelling a strange odor. That's when he contacted the 94 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: management of the condo building. Uh. They opened up Pam's 95 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: condo and discovered her body is there. She's been shot, 96 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: She's covered in blood and covered with a pile of towels. 97 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: You know, that's that's very odd. Dr Bethany Marshall l 98 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: a psycho analyst joining US. I found this is just anecdotal, 99 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: it's not a statistical study. Dr Bethany, that so often 100 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: killers will take the time to cover up the face 101 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,239 Speaker 1: of the victim. I know in one case, a girl 102 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: murders her mother and puts a trash basket, a wicker 103 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: basket over her head. I had cases where people were 104 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: murdered in the out, in the open, and they will 105 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: put leaves over the body. In this case, she put 106 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: towels over it. There's also surveillance video guys of her 107 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: at the condo. That's how we know she was at 108 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: the condo. Surveillance video she's walking out of the condo 109 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: with a plastic bag. Not only that, when she turns 110 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: up at a five star resort shortly after she spotted 111 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: walking across the lobby wearing Pam Hutchison's straw hat, she 112 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: is actually sporting her murder victims hat. So Dr Bethany, 113 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: two things in a nutshell, why cover up your dead 114 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: victim face? And second, does this woman note no shame, 115 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: she's even wearing the dead lady's hat. It's it's it's 116 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: so perverse, you know. I often think, um, you can 117 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: tell how premeditated a murder is by how well the 118 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: body is covered up, and whether or not the perpetrator 119 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: has prepared a dump site and a place to secrete 120 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: the body. And in this case, it seems as hasty 121 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: as I don't know, shoplifting a target like she finds 122 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: a woman who looks like her, follows her to the condo, 123 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: shoots her. I think maybe covers her up with towels too, 124 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 1: because she doesn't want too much blood to go all 125 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: over the places, and she also doesn't want to have 126 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,319 Speaker 1: to see what she's done. I think, right there, right there, 127 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany, I don't think they give a fig about 128 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: the blood. When you shoot somebody multiple times, you know 129 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 1: there's gonna be blood. There's something about covering up their face. 130 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: Dor Bethany Marshall. Sometimes I think they don't want to 131 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: see the victim looking back at them. I thought a 132 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: lot about this because it seems that no matter what 133 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: the m O is, that the perpetrator does tend to 134 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: cover up the victim's face, And sometimes I think, do 135 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 1: they just not want to see the deceased? Do they 136 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: not want to see their own handiwork? Maybe they just 137 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: want to deny themselves all the destruction that they've created. 138 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: You know, it goes back further even than the murder 139 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: of the husband. Jason Ocean's defense attorney joining me out 140 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: of the New York area. Jason, We've looked into some 141 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: court records and they show that Lois Reese was kicked 142 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: out as guardian for her disabled sister because every report 143 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: Lois had been transferring Lois Reese transferring funds from one 144 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: account to her own account and then withdrawing the funds 145 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: where else, Jason, because they know. So we got a 146 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: gambling problem and the means to solve it is to 147 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: steal moneys deal and then commit and then commit murder. 148 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: Perfect plan. And that was in two thousand five. We 149 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: got a hold of an affidavit that said thousands had 150 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: been spent somewhere called Diamond Joe Casino in Iowa, not 151 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: too far from her Blooming Prairie home. She was never 152 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: charged with a crime, but she was ordered to pay 153 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: back over a hundred thousand dollars. She was probably charged 154 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,719 Speaker 1: with something, and that was the plea arrangement to come 155 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 1: up with restitutions. So, uh, you know, birds of a feather, 156 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: I mean she she had to premeditate it, as Dr 157 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: Bethany said, and it's just well fought out. And she 158 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: has an m O in her background. Jason, birds of 159 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: a feather flot together does not apply to this because 160 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: she's not flocking with anybody. I think the proper one 161 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: would be when you don't know a horse, look at 162 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: his track record, because she's got a long track record. 163 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: Different unless you know of another bird flocking with her. 164 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: I hope you're ashamed. I am. Thank you for correcting me. Okay, good, good, 165 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: good to know good. Jason, always so right. I have 166 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: to use anything. I have to fight you. Okay. So 167 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: Joe's got Morgan. Okay, Joseph's got Morgan. Help me out now. 168 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: Because it's like there's no shame and no fear when 169 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: you go into a casino. There are more surveillance video 170 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: cameras than NASA, for Pete's sake, and she's killing and 171 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: murdering and stealing and then going to casinos and tromping around, flouncing, flouncing. 172 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: Let me pull that out of the drawer, flouncing, as 173 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: my grandmother used to say, across the lobbies of five 174 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: star resorts and casinos, wearing the dead victims hat Joe Scott. Yeah, 175 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: isn't that? Isn't that kind of bizarre. We're talking about 176 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 1: face covering for a moment where in my experience, they 177 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: have this this period of time where they don't want 178 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: to look at the face because they're kind of ashamed 179 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: of what they've done. But yet she goes and puts 180 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: on this woman's hat and goes to one of the 181 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: most public locations she possibly could, which she can be 182 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: observed from multiple points, and walks around as this person. 183 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: It's very bizarre, and also she it's almost like she's 184 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: she's jacked up in a sense that she's on a 185 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: rush or something. She's got all this money, she's traveling 186 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: across the country under an assumed identity, and she's blowing it. 187 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: She's blowing it every It's like she has nothing else 188 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: to live for, and it's it's it's scary. It's scary 189 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: in the in the fact that thank God that no 190 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: one else has gotten into her path who she could 191 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: destroy their lives. A woman who investigators believe murder her 192 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: husband in Minnesota, then goes to Florida, where she uses 193 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: the very same gun, according to the AMMO comparison, to 194 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: slay her doppel ganger, her look alike to assume her identity. 195 00:12:54,720 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: Pam Hutchison has been captured where else? At a South 196 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: Texas resort to John Lemley Crime Stories investigative reporter tell me, 197 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: how was Lois Reese finally captured? Where is she now? Well? 198 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: The man who actually recognized Lois Reese, who was wanted 199 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: for these murders of her husband and the woman that 200 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: she resembled. I told authorities that it was her hair 201 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: that gave her away. She was spotted sipping a drink 202 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: at the bar inside the Sea Ranch restaurant in South 203 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: Padre Island, Texas. From all accounts, it appears she was 204 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: cool as a cucumber until the marshals arrived to take 205 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: her into custody. Um The restaurant's manager, Becky Galvin, told 206 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: the Washington Press that they had received a call from 207 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: another restaurant before that that she had been spotted. They 208 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: authorities just missed her there, but they were able to 209 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: catch up with her realized she was on her way 210 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: into this restaurant and alerted the restaurant staff that she 211 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: was coming in. Well, this is what we know. We 212 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: know that she was only twenty seven miles from the 213 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: Mexican border, Alexis. While there is a lot, a lot 214 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: you have to go through to go from come from 215 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: Mexico into the US, to go from the US into Mexico, 216 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: people just fly right across the border twenty seven miles 217 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: from the Mexican border, Alexis. Absolutely, it's fairly easy to 218 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: get into Mexico. I've been in the car asleep one 219 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: time when we drove through, So she could have done 220 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: it very easily. And she had thousands of dollars. She 221 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: actually she stole eleven thousand dollars from her husband. I 222 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: don't know if that's stealing, but I'm gonna call it stealing. 223 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: And then she had another five thousand dollars from Camela, 224 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: so she was flushed with cash. She could have easily 225 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: made over word. But she was so brazen in these restaurants, 226 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: just eating out in public, not even like drive through 227 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: fast food, where there maybe would have been less cameras, 228 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: but she just was not afraid to be out in public. Well, 229 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: you know what's freaky cash. This, uh, tell me where 230 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: you think this is headed. Dr Bethany Marshall, I'm looking 231 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: at the video right now of when Lois Reese is 232 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: arrested by fugitive magistrates. The video shows her walking into 233 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: the restaurant and taking a seat at the edge of 234 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: the bar where she always does. She orders a glass 235 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: of wine and an entree, and she eats for over 236 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: an hour, befriending another woman at the bar in the process. 237 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: You know what that was, how that was going to end, right, Bethany, Absolutely, 238 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: this is her offending pattern. Right. She finds someone who 239 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: looks just like her, kills that person, assumes their identity, 240 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: steals their money, and then runs out of cash. Then 241 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: she has to find a new victim. Nancy. I read 242 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: one report where apparently she and her husband had some 243 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: couple of friends and the wife of the couple was 244 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: in the garage and looked up and there was Lois 245 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: Reese writing down the address numbers to that couple's house. 246 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: And I don't know if you read that report, and 247 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: that that she felt very freaked out. She had heard 248 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: that that Lois was on the lamb, and she became 249 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: afraid that that perhaps she was going to be Lois's 250 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: next victim. Sounds like Lois hung around their neighborhood for 251 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: about a week before moving on to another bar. Uh 252 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: and like serial killers do, looking for another victim. She 253 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: was befriending another woman at the bar, Alexis Tourez Chuck, 254 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: just like she did Pam Hutchinson before she gets access 255 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: to her condo and murders her to steal her identity. 256 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: I guarantee you she was there to kill the woman, 257 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: get her identity, and cross over to the Mexican border. 258 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: I'd be very interested to find out what that woman 259 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: looked like exactly. This is exactly what she does, and 260 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: that's why she It's so strange that she didn't change 261 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: her hair her because the platinum white blonde is so noticeable. 262 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: If she'd gone brown, she probably could have found a 263 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: lot more people that looked just like her that could 264 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: have been her victims. Luckily, these guys, these barteners, were 265 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: so smart and they noticed this. I don't know that 266 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: I ever noticed anybody sitting next to me in a restaurant, 267 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: so I really give them a lot of thanks for 268 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: catching this lady. Well, we also know this to John Limley. 269 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter. It never ends with this woman. 270 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 1: When police searched her hotel room, they find a twenty 271 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: two and a nine both in her room. What about 272 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: that it was not over yet for her. She had 273 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: a lot of plans of murder and embezzling and stealing 274 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: money ahead. Absolutely, And when they were able to get 275 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: into Pam Hutchinson's room, discovered that a lot of the 276 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: items that Lois had with her when she was found 277 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: intent that woman's credit I d s uh. That's and 278 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: her vehicle as well. She swapped vehicles. They're in Fort 279 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: Myers before she started the dred mile trip that as 280 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: of last Friday had her in uh, had her in 281 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: Texas very close to the border, then making the jump 282 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: to the island, and she was staying there in South 283 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: Padre Island in a fifty nine dollar a night roof 284 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: at Mostel six. Yeah, she left the fancy resort and 285 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 1: was scoping out her next victim. Take a listen to this. 286 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: The detectives from both here and the other two states 287 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: are still collecting and comprising all the evidence and it 288 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: looks like she'll be transferred to County for a short 289 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: stint and as soon as the extradition takes place, it 290 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: looks like it looks like it's she's going to be 291 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: going to Florida first, and they're also trying to move 292 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: some of the evidence, like the car, towards Florida. We 293 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: also know when she goes into a court, she's wearing 294 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: hot pants. Okay, I mean this woman, I mean this woman, 295 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: Lois Race has just been apprehended after her murder and um, 296 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: let me just say pilfering spree. She would find a victim, 297 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: still all their money, kill them and assume their identity. 298 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, take a listen to her 299 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: at Come and Go gas station in Iowa. This is 300 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 1: the day her husband's body was found. But she had 301 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: something else on her mind. All right, anyway, if you 302 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: want start heading stout, would you take so just to 303 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: keep going on down to the next day? Is that 304 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: the way to go here? That golden I'm gonna go 305 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 1: down there all like that. I mean, she really just 306 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: caught Morgan. Like so many other killers we've dealt with, 307 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: she really knows how to put on a facade. Okay, 308 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: thank you, And I'm sure she's sashayed right out of 309 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: those hot pants straight to her car. I mean really, yeah, 310 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: that's what's scary for people out in the general public. 311 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: I think that that a lot of the people out 312 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: there think that these people are just gonna be monsters, 313 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: they're gonna have things, and that they're you know, with 314 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: blood dripping from the tips of their fingers, And that's 315 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: not it. This one's very disarming. You listen to the 316 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: way she's having this conversation with gentlemen that station there, 317 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 1: just calmly getting directions, just like any of us would know, Hey, 318 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: what's the best route to take? And she even thanks 319 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: him as she's walking out the door. This lady does 320 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: not come off as a monster. No, not at all. 321 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: Well take a listen, guys, you're safe from what was 322 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: Reese for now. Anyway, I wouldn't put her in a 323 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: transport van to save my next she'll charm the driver, 324 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 1: split his throat, and drives straight to the slot machines 325 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: if she gets the chance. Take a listen to Lee County, 326 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: Florida undershareff Carmine Marcino. This case from the very beginning 327 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 1: struck me as odd. We look at her appearance. She 328 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: looks like anybody's mother or grandmother, yet she's an absolute 329 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: cold blood and murderer. So today is a huge win. 330 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: She can't strike again. That was our main concern. We 331 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: bring a killer off the streets, very very important our detectives. 332 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: Right now we're working as we speak because everything is 333 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: so fresh and new, but we want her back here 334 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 1: in Fort Myers. Will she be taken to Minnesota or 335 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: here first? Again? Right now, everything's fresh and new. Our 336 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 1: detectives are on the ground right now working to see 337 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: exactly where she's gonna be. So there is a legal process, 338 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 1: so it's just take a little bit of time. But 339 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: again we want to hear in Fort Myers to face 340 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: the charges she has. But when we see her mug 341 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: shot that was most recently taken, I asked the both 342 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: of you. Sometimes when people run, they try to alter 343 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: their appear her it's changed their hair color, do something. 344 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: None of that here absolutely, as you can see in 345 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: our video surveillance when she befriends Pam Hutchinson, our victim. Unfortunately, 346 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: she's smiling. So what does that tell you about her? Okay, 347 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: she's not she's running, but guess what, she's not changing 348 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: her appearance. She's living life. One day signing the victims 349 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: credit card in her name, the next her own. So 350 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: this is a stone cold killer. They climbed to the 351 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: top of the country music charts. I'm talking about the 352 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: Willis Clan. There were twelve Willis Clan siblings and to 353 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: look at them, it was picture perfect. Consider the country 354 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: music answer to the von Trapp family from the sound 355 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: of music. There were also a real family. They seemingly 356 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: had it all, beautiful home, wonderful career, hit country music 357 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: over and over and over. But one of the daughters 358 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: now rights the truth of what I was living every 359 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: day was nothing like what people saw on the outside. 360 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: What we are learning now The Willis Clan sister Jessica 361 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: now describing how she says her father began molesting her 362 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: when she was just three years old, and explained what 363 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: finally drives her to escape the family. The Willis Family 364 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: with their own reality show on TLC, a thriving business 365 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: in the country music world. But it wasn't worth it. 366 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 1: I Meancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for 367 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: being with us. Take a listen to this. I didn't 368 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: speak up is because it was like this is so 369 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: insane and crazy, Like, who's gonna believe me? How are 370 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: people going to deal with this. What helped me back 371 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: from Kim. I mean, all for the years and growing 372 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: up was the unknown. I didn't know what was going 373 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: to happen, and everything that I could have had as 374 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: a kid could have been taken away instantly. I had 375 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: no idea what was gonna happen. I didn't know if 376 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: I was going to have my mom and my siblings 377 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 1: there for me. I think held a black box in 378 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: our hearts of memories, regrets, um fears, and we hit 379 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: them pretty deep. That are some of the Willis family 380 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: siblings speaking out exclusively to Daily Mail dot com Straight 381 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: out to Heavy dot COM's reporter Jennifer Zikowski, Jennifer, thank 382 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: you so much for being with us. I'm a huge 383 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: country music fan. In fact, highlight for me was when 384 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: I took my mom and dad to the Grand Old Opery, 385 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: and in planning to take my children back to the 386 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: Grand Old Opery in May. I mean, that's just one 387 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: of those incredible thing you just don't want to miss 388 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: in a lifetime. Right. It's hard to take in because 389 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: we've been seeing the Willis Family and their reality show 390 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: on TLC for such a long time. They've had one 391 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: hit after the next, with their band, the Willis Clan. 392 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: But according to Jessica, it's all a big and horrible lie. 393 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: That is true. That's exactly what Jessica Willis Fisher laid 394 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 1: out in her recent blog um. Jessica was the lead 395 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: singer in the Willis Clan, and she opened up in 396 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: her blog post about the abuse, both sexual abuse and 397 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: physical abuse that she endured for over twenty years at 398 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,479 Speaker 1: the hands of her father. Told me Willis, what does 399 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: she say? In her blog with me heavy dot Com 400 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 1: reporter Jennifer Skowski. Okay, so, Jessica said her father, who 401 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 1: was really the patriarch of the family, he controlled every 402 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: aspect of of her life. For her and her twelveth sibilly, 403 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: She said there was a constant current of manipulation, domination, fear, 404 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: in favor. Toby Willis was so manipulated and quite honestly, 405 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: it seemed to be a master of brainwashing because he 406 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: got all of his victims, his own flesh and blood daughters, 407 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: to believe that they individually were the only victim. Jessica 408 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 1: said she believed her father began sexually abusing her at 409 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: a round age three years old, just three years old, 410 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: and she added that the horrifying acts began as far 411 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: back as she could remember. In her own words, Nancy 412 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 1: Jessica said, the abuse developed an abbs at various intervals 413 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: over the years and into puberty. The most graphic sexual 414 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: abuse faded off for me when I was around seventeen 415 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: years old, but many inappropriate actions and attentions continued. Now 416 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: what exactly those actions and attentions are we don't um. 417 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: So Koby willis he? She goes on to say that 418 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: he was physically abusive. According to Jessica, this monster of 419 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: a father had forbidden her to to your boyfriend who 420 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: is now her husband, and that boyfriend had figured out 421 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: that something wasn't right. You know, I'm interested in something else, Jennifer, 422 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna get you to pick up where you're 423 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: leaving off. But I want to ask you a quick 424 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: question with me from Heavy dot com reporter investigative reporter 425 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: Jennifer Sikowski, and we are talking about the highly popular 426 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: Willis Clan country music band, also the subject of the 427 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: TLC reality showed the Willis family a big hit for TLC. 428 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: I want to think about the mother for a moment. 429 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: The mother in this scenario, so if the abuse started 430 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: happening when the little when the child was three years old. 431 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: With Jessica is just three years old. Just let that 432 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: sink him for a moment, and then it started waning 433 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 1: when she was seventeen. Sexually anyway, that's fourteen years. The 434 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: mom didn't know what was going on. She states that 435 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: she became aware she Jessica that what was happening to 436 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,439 Speaker 1: her was not appropriate when she was about nine years 437 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: old and her mother got suspicious. Um around nine years old, 438 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 1: she writes, quote something, I'm still not sure what caused 439 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: my mother to become suspicious of my father's interactions. I 440 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: didn't realize there was zero evidence of anything specific, and 441 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: all I did was nod when a few general questions 442 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: were asked by my mother. I heard my mother raised 443 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: her voice to my father for the first time in 444 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,959 Speaker 1: my life, and I thought the adults would figure it out. 445 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: I didn't understand. My father simply denied wrongdoing and became 446 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: more secretive and dangerous from then on. So the mother 447 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: suspected but apparently did nothing. For let's see, that would 448 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: mean the next eight years. As Jessica as he gets older, 449 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: she began suspecting her father is abusing her sisters, but 450 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: none would ever come out and say that. So to 451 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: Troy Slayton, defense attorney joining me right now, were what 452 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: position does that leave the mom in? I mean, the 453 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: mom is not abusing her, but the mom suspects, according 454 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: to Jessica, that she as a little child, as being 455 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,959 Speaker 1: sex abused by her country music star dad and does nothing. 456 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: Is that okay? Troy? It's certainly not okay, and it 457 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: places her in not only uh criminal jeopardy, but civil 458 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: jeopardy as well. A parent is in a special relationship 459 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: with a child, like a doctor and a patient, or 460 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: a teacher and a student. If one of those people 461 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: who you are duty bound by law to protect, if 462 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: you fail to protect and report that person, then you're 463 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: guilty of a crime. Well, here's the other issue. To 464 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: Ashley Willcott, juvenile judge and founder of child crime watch 465 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: dot com, Ashley, the mother did not abuse her from 466 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: what we know, neither beating nor sex abusing. Okay, But 467 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: we do know according to the victim. The alleged victim, Jessica, 468 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: that her mother became suspicious after six years of sex 469 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: abuse by her dad, starts asking questions, has a fight 470 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: with the dad, about it, but the dad stays in 471 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: the home. I mean, how can the I mean the 472 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: mom their country music stars, they're pictured on the stage. 473 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: How can the mom be afraid to speak out? Take 474 00:30:54,880 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: a listen to America's Got Talent where the Willis Clan 475 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: We're big hits. Listen the rain drops on goes and 476 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: he says, because on kittens, round at the food, all 477 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: round papers back, got is tied up the strings? These 478 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: are a few are my favorite dadaaaa be my favorite things, 479 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: singers and dressing, sensashions, no things a norrible wrong to 480 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: my winter round? You are my favor When when the 481 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: fees say, when a f said the worsening thender my 482 00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 1: favorite things? And yeah back to you? Actually will got 483 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: What about the mom in this scenario? Listen, Nancy. All 484 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: I can say is when I'm on the bench, I 485 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: see this all the time. I don't understand it. But 486 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: a parent, instead of protecting their own children, says nothing 487 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: and sides with the abusive spouse father mother in the home. 488 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: I don't get it. I don't know why, but this 489 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: woman failed to protect the children. She could have had 490 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: the children taken away from her, had anyone disclosed when 491 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: they were younger, and in fact she can be criminally 492 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: charged well. While on tour in the past a couple 493 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: of years, she Jessica says she arrives in her hotel 494 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: room to find her sisters and mother gathered and distraught 495 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: after one of them had been molested. Quote. I came 496 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: into my hotel room that night to find my mother 497 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: and some of my sisters sitting on the big crying, 498 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: with that look on their face I had seen so 499 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: many times before. Quote, The coldest, blackest pit opened up 500 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: in my stomach because no words needed to be said 501 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: for me to know something had happened. How was I 502 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: hear again? Things were not over. They had never been over. 503 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: Sex abuse was still happening, and I knew it, She wrote. 504 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: She confronted her father and threatened to leave, but carried 505 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: on living with them, and the tour kept going on. 506 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: They quote put on their show faces. Lauren Howard's psychologist, 507 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: You know, as much as we want to trash the 508 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: whole family that stood by and let this happen, many 509 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: of some of them may have been sex abuse victims 510 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: as well. How do these victims, these children carry on 511 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: as if nothing's happening, Everything's fine, And what about the mom. 512 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: This is a cult. It is the fact that they're 513 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: genetically connected is irrelevant. This is a cult and they're 514 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: being trolled by the leader of the cult, which is 515 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: the father. To blame the mother for not taking care 516 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: of her children is to not understand that she also 517 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: is a victim of a deuce, whether it's physical or psychological. 518 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: This is you have to understand that. This is It 519 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,879 Speaker 1: takes a village for good to prevail. It also takes 520 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,760 Speaker 1: a village for evil to prevail. This is people gathered 521 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:29,240 Speaker 1: together saving face shamed. The older sister, Jessica, has enormous guilt. 522 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: She doesn't want to destroy her family, destroy her mother. 523 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: She now is dealing with the fact that had she 524 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,760 Speaker 1: called it out earlier, if she could have perhaps prevented 525 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,320 Speaker 1: this from happening to her younger siblings. Believe it or not, Nancy, 526 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: I have seen this in families way too often for 527 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 1: my for my lifetime. And usually they're smaller families about 528 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,919 Speaker 1: you know, not that many families have twelve twelve kids, 529 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: But I have seen it in the families before, and 530 00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: everybody ducks and covers and and that's what that is. 531 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,319 Speaker 1: Why it takes so long understand. Also with Jessica, when 532 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,959 Speaker 1: she was three years old and this began, she didn't 533 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: understand that something was wrong. She was a three year 534 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: old Daddy was playing with her. She didn't know what 535 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: that all meant. It wasn't until she was nine that 536 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: she started to realize this is actually not okay. Because 537 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: they're homeschooled, they're very much contained, kept away from the 538 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,800 Speaker 1: rest of society. Their privileges are very controlled. Their entire 539 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: being is controlled. So really the only positive thing they 540 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: have in their life is their performance and their you know, 541 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: their showmanship. So you can't bring the mother and you can't. 542 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: You have to understand the other piece of it, which 543 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: is the child has made to feel that they are 544 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: really special, that daddy favors them, and this is what 545 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: they know is lost. Well, you know, Ashley will caught 546 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: with me, jeven, I'll judge also with me. Dr Carol Lieberman, 547 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrists and author of a brand new book on 548 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: Amazon Lions and Tigers and Terrorists of My How to 549 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: Keep your Kids Safe. You know, Dr Carol, I hear, Lauren. 550 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: But as far as your own safety, that's one thing. 551 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: If you're afraid of the husband. But when multiple children 552 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: of yours are being beaten and sex molested and you 553 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: stand by and do nothing, I got a problem with that, Carol, Yes, absolutely, 554 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: I really don't agree with that. Um. You know, it's 555 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 1: it's interesting how Jessica tries to protect her family, her mother, 556 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 1: her siblings. You know, she talks about her siblings in 557 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,839 Speaker 1: a very interesting way that like they were, they each 558 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,800 Speaker 1: came from different perspectives, they were all each different ages, 559 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: so they couldn't really explain to each other what was 560 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: going on. She tries to protect them all. But um, 561 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: but really, I mean, if the mother suspected something, I mean, 562 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,439 Speaker 1: certainly she should have suspected before nine, before Jessica was nine. 563 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: But given that she didn't until nine, Um, that is 564 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: when she should have absolutely done something about it. And 565 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: you know what hasn't been said yet is about you know, yes, 566 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: the father, Jessica said, the father was very violent and 567 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: the mother was you know, probably be threatened, the mother 568 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: possibly with hurting the children if she told and so on. 569 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: That's still no excuse. But there's also the issue of 570 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,919 Speaker 1: show business and fame. These people didn't want to wreck 571 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: the app, you know, because they didn't want to get 572 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: out of being famous. Take a listen to the Willis Clan. 573 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 1: The first time I was able to tell my story 574 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: was after one of my sisters told her story, and 575 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: it was like, wow, oh my gosh, I'm not the 576 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: only one. We are talking about a country music star 577 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: in her own right. Her name is Jessica Willis. She's 578 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,879 Speaker 1: from the Willis Clan band and from the reality show 579 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: on t l C, the Willis Family Show. I mean, 580 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: did Jennifer Tzikowski with heavy dot com? What is it 581 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: with TLC? First there was the Dugger family. What was 582 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: that twenty one in counting or eighteen in county or 583 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: someththing in counting, And there was abuse, alleged sex abuse 584 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,919 Speaker 1: in that family. It was one of the siblings, male 585 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: siblings allegedly abusing the sisters. Okay, there's that one. And 586 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: now this what's with that, Jennifer? It's absolutely crazy, absolutely 587 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: ludicrous that both happened to be covered by TLC. And 588 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: there are so many similarities between the Duggers and the 589 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 1: Willis family, so obviously they were bolt very large families. 590 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 1: The Duggers had nineteen children, the Willis's had twelve, um 591 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: they all homeschooled their children, and both had the TLC 592 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: shows and both were connected with sexual abuse. Um. They 593 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: were also all the children with n were named with James, 594 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: which is that was just another interesting part of it all, Um, 595 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:01,839 Speaker 1: the differences the Duggers seemed to forgiven for the most part. 596 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: Josh Dougger, you know, saying that he was only fourteen 597 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: and fifteen years old when he molested his sisters and 598 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:17,240 Speaker 1: also a babysitter, whereas the Willis family um is standing 599 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: behind the victims and Brenda immediately divorced Toby. But like 600 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,959 Speaker 1: you said in the past, you know whoa whoa whoa 601 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 1: whoa immediately divorced this child. Jessica, now an adult female, 602 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 1: started being molested according to her at age three. The 603 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,439 Speaker 1: mom only started asked a couple of questions when she's 604 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: aged nine, and then, according to reports, chose to believe 605 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 1: the dad over children. That is not getting a divorce immediately. 606 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: Now I know you're the investigative reporter, but uh, that 607 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: doesn't sound immediate to me. I mean that it goes 608 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: from age three to age seventeen when the sex to 609 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: be started weaning off. That's fourteen years Jennifer, very true. 610 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: Very very true. And you know what just goes back 611 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: to how controlling and manipulative this man was. Toby Willis 612 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 1: was and was here waiting whoa, whoa, whoa, Jennifer. I 613 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: agree with you on that controlling, violent, and manipulative in 614 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: the worst ways to his own family. But I mean, 615 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I want to believe that if 616 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 1: I thought my child was being abused or beaten, that 617 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 1: I would put my own safety aside and a kill 618 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,279 Speaker 1: is okay, never mind, not not kill, take that back, 619 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: race race, report him and kick him out with my 620 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: cowboy boot. I've got on my foot right now, straight 621 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,840 Speaker 1: up his rear end, and then I'd give him to 622 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: the cops. I mean, I'd like to think. I believe 623 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: that's what I would do. I'm pretty sure that's what 624 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: I would do. I mean, at a certain point, when 625 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 1: does the when do the other adults in the scenario 626 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 1: become complicit? Too high profile defense lawyer out of l 627 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 1: a Troice Latton when you can't there is no playbook 628 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:23,479 Speaker 1: for this sort of horror. And you know, the mother, 629 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: although she does have potential criminal liability, none of us 630 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 1: know what type of stresses she was under, what type 631 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:37,799 Speaker 1: of fear she was under. So we can't even imagine 632 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: the house of horrors where she's trying to hold her 633 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 1: family together, protect her children and do everything she can. 634 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: I can't even start to imagine what stressed she was under. Okay, 635 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: I agree with you on that. Troice Letton, I agree 636 00:41:55,120 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: with you on that. To Vincent Hill, private investigator joining us, uh, 637 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: former cop Vincent, you know, the the homeschooling thing comes 638 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: up again in this scenario. I'm not against home schooling. 639 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,760 Speaker 1: I have relatives at home school and when my children 640 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,479 Speaker 1: were learning about um, let's see what were they learning 641 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 1: A B, C, D, E F G. Her children were 642 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: learning the works of Shakespeare and their homeschooling cluster group. Okay, 643 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 1: So not knocking home schooling. However, Vincent having trump through 644 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,279 Speaker 1: so many public schools in inner city Atlanta looking for 645 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 1: witnesses and defendants. Public schools, all schools, actually do provide 646 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 1: a certain degree of monitoring because if a child comes 647 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 1: forward and says I'm being molested or my dad did this, 648 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:54,239 Speaker 1: or my brother did this, or my uncle or the 649 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: janitor or whoever, or they see the child as malnutrition 650 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,399 Speaker 1: or beaten or unkempt or wearing the same clothes every day. 651 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 1: The school has a duty to report that to police, 652 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 1: and if you're being homeschooled, you lose that protection. Explain 653 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: to me, Vincent Hill, You've dug up a lot of 654 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 1: witnesses in public schools, including teachers and administrators. Explain how 655 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,360 Speaker 1: that works, Vincent. Now, you're absolutely right, Nancy. The benefit 656 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,680 Speaker 1: of going to a public school. Although a lot of 657 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 1: people don't like public schools, you know, for crimes or whatnot. 658 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:33,080 Speaker 1: And I went to a public school, Dr John hur Hey, 659 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: I did too, I graduated in Milwaukee. Um, but it 660 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: does get a child to benefit to say, hey, this 661 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:40,759 Speaker 1: is going on in the home. Even if they don't 662 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,880 Speaker 1: say it, there's always signs, Nancy. And that's why I'm 663 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 1: not a big advocate of home schooling, because you never 664 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: know what's going on inside someone's home, and everyone, especially 665 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,720 Speaker 1: in the entertainment field, will put on a good front 666 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 1: to make it look like everything is peachy when that's 667 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,239 Speaker 1: not actually the case. I mean, we talked about the 668 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: Heart kids, they were homeschool Look what happened in that case. 669 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:04,759 Speaker 1: And in a lot of these cases, you have the 670 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,720 Speaker 1: spouse and you, Nancy, being a mother, you know, nothing 671 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,240 Speaker 1: goes on in your house that you don't know about, 672 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,840 Speaker 1: So to that, I say that she was likely a 673 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,759 Speaker 1: victim of whether it was physical abuse, verbal abuse, or 674 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,360 Speaker 1: maybe even sexual abuse, because just because you're married doesn't 675 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,120 Speaker 1: mean you can't be sexually assaulted by your spouse. So 676 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: we don't know what was going on in that home. 677 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,320 Speaker 1: But had these kids been in a public environment, someone 678 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:34,279 Speaker 1: would have seen those signs. She writes, this is Jessica's post, uh, 679 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 1: and I'm talking about Jessica Willis the star of the 680 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 1: Willis Clan band and the Willis Family on TLC. I 681 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:44,800 Speaker 1: was twenty three years old and known as the blonde 682 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 1: lead singer, fiddle player, and principal songwriter of the Willis Clan, 683 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 1: the eldest sister of twelve kids. We performed on tour frequently, 684 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,919 Speaker 1: and we're finishing up a second season of reality TV 685 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: show about our family, a fourth album in the works, 686 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,200 Speaker 1: and there was always something exciting and challenging coming up 687 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:08,280 Speaker 1: on the calendar. But that year was also the darkest 688 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,320 Speaker 1: period of my life. The truth of what I was 689 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:15,040 Speaker 1: living every day was nothing like what people saw on 690 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 1: the outside. Speculation and confusion has muddied the waters of 691 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,040 Speaker 1: late and I found the longer I go without speaking up, 692 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:29,279 Speaker 1: the longer I feel trapped in the continued power of 693 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:34,200 Speaker 1: my past. When I did eventually come to realize I 694 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 1: was being molested, I had no way to accurately express 695 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,840 Speaker 1: what was happening to me. There followed intense shame, distrust, 696 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:47,240 Speaker 1: and hurt throughout my childhood, even in the happy times. 697 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:53,800 Speaker 1: Thus ran the two parallel storylines that became my life. 698 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:59,200 Speaker 1: You know, as she willcott, that just breaks my heart 699 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:03,320 Speaker 1: to even eat her words. It's um sadistic, and this 700 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,319 Speaker 1: father held the entire family captive. One thing I would 701 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 1: say to parents again, seeing these cases all day, every day, 702 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,800 Speaker 1: and my job is trust your gut. And so while 703 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:19,120 Speaker 1: the mother arguably may have been a victim, obviously, I 704 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,439 Speaker 1: think if you trust your gut early on in a relationship, 705 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 1: if you think something's wrong, if you think something's going on, 706 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,439 Speaker 1: do not ignore it. She's so right about trusting your gut. 707 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,200 Speaker 1: Take a listen now to a Daily mail dot Com 708 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:40,960 Speaker 1: exclusive interview with the Willis families six oldest children. Looking back, 709 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:43,720 Speaker 1: the older girls now wish they've been able to speak 710 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 1: up before their father had a chance to pray on 711 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,759 Speaker 1: their younger sisters. The truth is all of us at 712 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:54,280 Speaker 1: different times. Could have you know um spoken up and said, 713 00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,920 Speaker 1: you know, this is my truth, this is what you know. 714 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 1: I'm experiencing. The boy feel guilt, wishing they'd known and 715 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 1: could have somehow rescued their family. It's been hard for me, 716 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,120 Speaker 1: and I hear stories around me, and I look at 717 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:12,400 Speaker 1: those people and I would I can't even fathom the 718 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,360 Speaker 1: pain you're going through. I was all of this affected 719 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 1: your relationship with your mother. I knew that if I 720 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,279 Speaker 1: told my mom thinks that I was experiencing, she would 721 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,560 Speaker 1: take up for me. She would fight for me, and 722 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,680 Speaker 1: she would, you know, defend me. But I was scared 723 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 1: your father was watching this and watching you'll speak. Is 724 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,239 Speaker 1: there anything that you would say to him? I would, 725 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,799 Speaker 1: I would say no. I think our actions speak way 726 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,799 Speaker 1: louder than our words. It's a very liberating thing to say, 727 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,320 Speaker 1: you're not going to affect me anymore. You don't have 728 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,279 Speaker 1: that power over meat. That door closed to your father 729 00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 1: ever having a sort of a part in your life, 730 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,600 Speaker 1: or is it something that might be re established. There's 731 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,040 Speaker 1: no question. I mean the door is definitely closed on 732 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:58,000 Speaker 1: him ever being a father figure. But door is definitely 733 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,680 Speaker 1: very formally closed. You know, of the earlier comment I 734 00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,680 Speaker 1: believe by Lauren Howard's psychologists joining us today out of 735 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,839 Speaker 1: New York that this was a cult um. I don't 736 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:09,239 Speaker 1: know that I would call it a cult, but it 737 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,600 Speaker 1: does have cult like aspects to it. To me, it's 738 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:14,880 Speaker 1: a father who's sexually abusing all of his children and 739 00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,759 Speaker 1: they're too afraid to say anything, and the mom is 740 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,640 Speaker 1: afraid and also stands by and let it happen. She 741 00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:27,080 Speaker 1: doesn't want to know, so she doesn't know. Jessica writes 742 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:34,040 Speaker 1: that the innocent, hurt, curious, hopeful child hidden within me 743 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:41,000 Speaker 1: gravitated to the magic of storytellings, truth, and wisdom. She 744 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:47,440 Speaker 1: could connect with others through music when words failed. Speaking 745 00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 1: to the cult life aspect, my daily life transformed dramatically 746 00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,759 Speaker 1: as my family became more and more public. Quote. My 747 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,840 Speaker 1: father shaped us from child students to child performers, and 748 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,680 Speaker 1: at some point we became a touring dance troupe and band. 749 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: He always promoted his philosophy, showcasing the family as living 750 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:15,080 Speaker 1: proof of the validity of his methods and beliefs. Mm hmm. 751 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,520 Speaker 1: I remember being a model member of this strange and 752 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:24,640 Speaker 1: highly performance oriented group, complete with a belief on the 753 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:29,440 Speaker 1: only every subject and constantly ready to make a range 754 00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:35,880 Speaker 1: of demonstrations on cute. It does sound like Lauren Howard 755 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:40,400 Speaker 1: that he has brainwashed them. There's absolutely and Nancy, I 756 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:42,920 Speaker 1: have to just send the mother again. You know, if 757 00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,960 Speaker 1: you'd say that, if you if you believe there's something 758 00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:48,160 Speaker 1: awful with happen to your children, you put your own 759 00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,680 Speaker 1: welfare behind there. What if and it's hard to you 760 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,080 Speaker 1: to imagine this because you're a strong, smart, independent woman 761 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,360 Speaker 1: who has had a life full of experiences and exposure 762 00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:03,000 Speaker 1: to reality. This family did not have. What if you believe? 763 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,680 Speaker 1: What if your husband major believe if you don't call, 764 00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,640 Speaker 1: if you do anything about this, I will kill you 765 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:11,840 Speaker 1: and then I will have the children to myself. I 766 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,040 Speaker 1: will get rid of you. I will ruin I've already 767 00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,520 Speaker 1: thought about that. I've thought about that, about the father 768 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,960 Speaker 1: threatening to kill the wife and the children if it 769 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:25,239 Speaker 1: became public. But as she Wilcott uh juvenile judge and 770 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,680 Speaker 1: found a child crimewatch dot com. He's not with them 771 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,880 Speaker 1: seven three sixty five. They're on tour. Somebody has to 772 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,359 Speaker 1: go to Walmart. Somebody has to pump gas. Somebody has 773 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,320 Speaker 1: to be on the stage introducing them. There were a million, 774 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,600 Speaker 1: two million, three million moments when police could have moved 775 00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:48,680 Speaker 1: in on him and arrested him while he was away 776 00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,279 Speaker 1: from the children. Bam, that's true. Also, you know, you 777 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,600 Speaker 1: have to think about the fact that yes, a parent 778 00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:58,040 Speaker 1: maybe a victim, but it doesn't mean then there aren't 779 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:03,239 Speaker 1: other opportunity to get other people involved and seek out help. 780 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,200 Speaker 1: They're all kinds of victim advocates and people who are 781 00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:09,360 Speaker 1: there to help these very issues. You just have to 782 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,520 Speaker 1: be brave enough to take a step and strong enough 783 00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,520 Speaker 1: and knowledgeable enough. You have to you have to understand 784 00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,520 Speaker 1: that you have a way out and when you were indostrinated, 785 00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:22,799 Speaker 1: in controlled and helped captives and listen to this, I'm 786 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:24,840 Speaker 1: going to go back to what Lauren Howard is saying 787 00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,720 Speaker 1: as she will cut way in on this in Troye Laton. 788 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,680 Speaker 1: Four months later, another friend steps forward to save the 789 00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:35,719 Speaker 1: rest of her family after she manages to escape. He 790 00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,719 Speaker 1: reported my dad for suspicion of sex abuse and the 791 00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:42,200 Speaker 1: investigation started. The case was given to the t b 792 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:48,480 Speaker 1: I Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. When they contacted me, I 793 00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:50,960 Speaker 1: went in and spoke with them the whole rest of 794 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:55,680 Speaker 1: the day. I gave them a long, confident testimony which 795 00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,880 Speaker 1: was used to create the arrest warrant. I was war 796 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,319 Speaker 1: or not to speak to my family, and if they 797 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:06,040 Speaker 1: reached out, I should let the tb I do their job. 798 00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:09,719 Speaker 1: There was great concern on how to keep everyone alive 799 00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:14,000 Speaker 1: and safe while trying to apprehend my father. It was 800 00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:20,240 Speaker 1: no exaggeration to fear a violent confrontation, standoff, kidnapping, or worse. 801 00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:26,759 Speaker 1: It was a harrowing few weeks, but my father was 802 00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:36,000 Speaker 1: finally arrested Ashley Willcott juvenile judge way in, Thank God 803 00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,640 Speaker 1: for law enforcement. People who want a bad mouth law enforcement, 804 00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:43,920 Speaker 1: listen to what they just did. They saved that girl 805 00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:46,960 Speaker 1: and the siblings because of the way they handled it. 806 00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:54,280 Speaker 1: To Troice Leighton, what now? So he is now sentenced 807 00:52:54,800 --> 00:53:00,720 Speaker 1: two four counts. He's been convicted four times for child rape. 808 00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:04,680 Speaker 1: He's going to serve to five year terms and to 809 00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:09,840 Speaker 1: forty year terms all concurrently, which means a total of 810 00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:15,440 Speaker 1: forty years in prison based on those convictions. You know, um, 811 00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,520 Speaker 1: I want everyone to know that the family is going 812 00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:23,719 Speaker 1: on and they are performing for the very first time 813 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:28,960 Speaker 1: since their dad's conviction and Shower Arts and Activities Center 814 00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:36,080 Speaker 1: in Wisconsin on May two thousand eighteen. Repeat they're performing 815 00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:44,400 Speaker 1: as a family together. Another thing that Jessica writes is 816 00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,120 Speaker 1: writing and sharing. This is an important step from me 817 00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:56,800 Speaker 1: in owning my story, loving myself and others, and moving 818 00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,439 Speaker 1: forward to live the life I truly want to live. 819 00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:09,359 Speaker 1: She says. If you two are a survivor, you are 820 00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:16,600 Speaker 1: not alone. Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend.