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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Mark Moss Show,

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Speaker 1: where we talk about the decentralized revolution, of course, each

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Speaker 1: and every week, looking at through the lens of politics, finance,

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Speaker 1: and technology, which of course technology is bitcoin and the

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Speaker 1: decentralized technology that's bringing. Now I am sitting down today

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Speaker 1: with a special guest, James Murphy. You can find him

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Speaker 1: on Twitter at meta law Man on Twitter and um

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Speaker 1: he's a securities lawyer. Now, I don't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of lawyers on and securities lawyers, but you know, I've

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Speaker 1: been talking extensively about the FTX situation that's that's happened there.

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Speaker 1: I put out a video on YouTube talking about how

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Speaker 1: I think we might have seen the last crypto bull run,

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Speaker 1: and I said, because I think securities are going to

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Speaker 1: finally kind of make their way into the space, which

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Speaker 1: will stop a lot of this venture capital money that's

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Speaker 1: created these kind of pump and dump situations that are

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Speaker 1: going there. And I thought, hey, let's just talk to

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Speaker 1: an sec lawyer about that. So James, so welcome to

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Speaker 1: the show. Hey, Mark, I love your show. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for having me on. I'm looking forward to

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Speaker 1: the conversation. Now, I know you just wrote an article

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Speaker 1: for Coin Desk and you were talking about UM things

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Speaker 1: that you think Andrew Sorkin should be asking. UM, SBF,

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Speaker 1: Sam Bankman freed. So for the audience that's not caught up,

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Speaker 1: how could you have missed it by now f t X,

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Speaker 1: the second largest cryptocurrency exchange, blew up. Um. It looks

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Speaker 1: like clear cut fraud to me. I know that the

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Speaker 1: security laws are in a little bit of gray area,

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Speaker 1: but fraud has always been fraud. That doesn't change that

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Speaker 1: in my opinion. UM. And instead of Sam Bankman Freed

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Speaker 1: defrauding and now even admitting too in messaging UH in

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Speaker 1: the last week or two that he's done these things

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Speaker 1: that I think are fraud, Um, he's still walking around

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Speaker 1: as a freeman. And even worse than that, he's going

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Speaker 1: to go speak at an event I think set up

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Speaker 1: by New York Times. UM. Sharing the stage with are

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Speaker 1: criminals like Janet Yelling, Secretary of the Treasury, UH, Ben Affleck,

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Speaker 1: H Zuckerberg, UH, Larry Fink from Black Rock, etcetera. So, UM,

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Speaker 1: he's going to be interviewed by H Andrew Sorkin probably

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Speaker 1: going to be given up a bunch of softball lobs

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Speaker 1: that he can just knock out of the park, or

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Speaker 1: he can spread some misinformation on and uh, James, I

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Speaker 1: know you had written this article said here's what he

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Speaker 1: should be asking. So walk us through some of that.

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Speaker 1: To start out with, Yeah, well, uh, great lead up.

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Speaker 1: I am interested in the world of digital assets and

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Speaker 1: have been paying a lot of attention to you know,

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Speaker 1: what looks like a number of dominoes that have fallen

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Speaker 1: and will follow fall yet and there will be, of course,

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Speaker 1: this impact on the overall market. Uh, and we can

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Speaker 1: talk about that at great length. It's not just prices

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Speaker 1: and viability of companies. But you know, when you have

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Speaker 1: a spectacular collapse, it creates tremendous latitude for policy makers

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Speaker 1: and regulators to go after everybody else. And so I

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Speaker 1: think I buy a significant part of your thesis about

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Speaker 1: what is to come. But in any event, with respect

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Speaker 1: to SBF, I am pretty uh plugged into the ft

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Speaker 1: X bankruptcy and what's going on there. And um, you know,

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Speaker 1: he has tweeted a little bit in ways that are nonsensical,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, Wow, if he's really going to answer

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Speaker 1: questions of a legitimate reporter, wouldn't it be nice if

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Speaker 1: some real tough questions were asked, UH, and so I

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Speaker 1: started tweeting them out. You know, I said, hey, look,

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Speaker 1: I've been doing this for thirty years. I've questioned con

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Speaker 1: men many times, dozens of times, and other kinds of fraudsters.

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Speaker 1: Here's how I would go about it. And so I

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Speaker 1: started putting out some of these questions on Twitter. And

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Speaker 1: then all of a sudden last night, UH, an editor

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Speaker 1: at coin Desk called me and said, we like what

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Speaker 1: you're doing. Can you put this into a format that

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Speaker 1: we can run it on on coin Desk? And I said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would do that under one condition. And my condition

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Speaker 1: is I want that out there in public before this

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Speaker 1: interview of SPF happens. And so it's out there, people

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Speaker 1: are talking about it. And so if I did want

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Speaker 1: to make it harder for Andrew Ross Sorkin to throw softballs,

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Speaker 1: there's now quite a little tiny army. You have a

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Speaker 1: huge following. I've got a microscopic following because I just

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Speaker 1: started Twitter or two months ago. But they're they're pretty

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Speaker 1: worked up. They do not want softballs thrown because many

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Speaker 1: of them have lost their life savings, and so questions

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Speaker 1: like hey, Sam, you understand that the terms of service

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Speaker 1: for your platform, f t X say very clearly the

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Speaker 1: assets that customers deposit on f t X are the

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Speaker 1: property of the customer and not the property of f

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Speaker 1: t X. It's in black and white, a simple statement

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Speaker 1: in their terms of service. You took that money that

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Speaker 1: didn't belong to you and shifted it over to your

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Speaker 1: hedge fund, Alameda, you understand, I'm sure that action is illegal, right,

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Speaker 1: So you know this is why I am certain that

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Speaker 1: any lawyer he has is has strongly advised him not

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Speaker 1: to answer any of these questions. But I've seen this before,

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Speaker 1: and you've seen it before. These con men who are

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Speaker 1: really really smooth, slippery, whatever, believe that they and convince

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Speaker 1: the whole audience about totally different narrative that is not

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Speaker 1: rooted in the facts. And so that's I'm afraid he

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Speaker 1: may try that. They want to win in the court

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Speaker 1: of public opinion. Um, not in law, but in public opinion.

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Speaker 1: So let's let's talk about some of this. So I

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Speaker 1: know your securities, attorney, but to the point that you made,

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Speaker 1: you've interviewed lots of people, con men and mobsters, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: So um, let's talk about some of these things. Because

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Speaker 1: some people I can't believe it. People that known people

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Speaker 1: in the space are saying, well, you know this happened

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Speaker 1: in in this gray area, that these aren't really security

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Speaker 1: so maybe it wasn't really illegal. But to your point,

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Speaker 1: I believe fraud is always fraud. And so if you

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Speaker 1: said in the terms that these are your deposits, but

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Speaker 1: then I take those and use them for my own use,

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Speaker 1: misappropriating them to the words you used, regardless of what

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Speaker 1: type of asset that is, isn't that still considered fraud,

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Speaker 1: which is still considered illegal. Yes, okay, and you don't

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Speaker 1: and you rarely get unequivocal answers from any lawyer, But

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Speaker 1: the answer your question is yes. If you are a

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Speaker 1: valet at a fancy restaurant and somebody hands you the

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Speaker 1: keys to your to their car, it doesn't become the

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Speaker 1: valet's car to do whatever they want with it. But

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Speaker 1: if the valet takes that car, it goes and crashes it,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't hand the keys back and say, hey, you know, sorry,

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Speaker 1: stuff happens. No, that's a crime. What what what just

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Speaker 1: happened there? That's a criminal offense. When you when you

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Speaker 1: when you give your money to the bank, though that

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Speaker 1: money is not yours anymore. They owe you that money,

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Speaker 1: and there's a legal difference. And I thought that it

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Speaker 1: might be the same with these crypto exchanges, where once

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Speaker 1: you give it to them, they owe it to you

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Speaker 1: and it's not actually your property anymore. But you're saying

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Speaker 1: that's not the case in f t X. Now you're

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Speaker 1: getting somewhere, Mark, What you just described is the situation

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Speaker 1: at Celsius, and in terms of service are very very

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Speaker 1: clear that it is like the bank paradigm. You give

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Speaker 1: us the money, then we you know, you are our

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Speaker 1: credit or we owe you that money, but we take

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Speaker 1: dominion over that money and lend it out to other people,

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Speaker 1: just like a fractional reserve model of a bank. F

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Speaker 1: t X was different. Coin base is different. Uh in

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Speaker 1: saying no, that's not our money, that's your money, and

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Speaker 1: you are the one who has complete control and all

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Speaker 1: ownership rights over that money when you deposit it here.

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Speaker 1: We cannot borrow it from you and lend it or

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Speaker 1: spend it, you know, in some other way. That's a

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Speaker 1: that's a point and distinction. That's a big point. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna cut you off right there, James. You're listening to

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Speaker 1: the Mark mos Show. UM in the studio with James Murphy.

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Speaker 1: He is an attorney and we're talking about the f

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Speaker 1: t X situation, the blow up, the biggest blow up

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Speaker 1: in the cryptocurrency space right now, the second largest cryptocurrency exchange,

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Speaker 1: and we're talking about some of the legality of what's

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Speaker 1: going on with this. Uh, if you've got money in

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Speaker 1: the crypto space, you want to hear what we are

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Speaker 1: going to talk about next. So don't go away. Um again,

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Speaker 1: just listening to the Mark mo Show talking about the

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Speaker 1: decentralized revolution and the f t X blow up. We're

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Speaker 1: back with more in a minute. Don't go away, We

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Speaker 1: right back. All right, welcome back. If you're just tuning in,

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Speaker 1: you're listening to the Mark Moss Show. I'm sitting down

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Speaker 1: with attorney James Murphy talking about f t X, the

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Speaker 1: second largest cryptocurrency exchange that blew up and disappeared with

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Speaker 1: people's money and a lot of people say there's maybe

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Speaker 1: some gray air there, and I'm talking to an attorney

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Speaker 1: about that. So, James, before the break, you were saying

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Speaker 1: how um Celsius and some of these other exchanges are

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Speaker 1: are like a bank model where the money that's there is,

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Speaker 1: actually there's and they owe it to But with f

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Speaker 1: t X, UM they said that it was actually customer funds,

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Speaker 1: and that changes things on what they're able to do.

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing yeah very much so, yeah, very much so. Um,

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Speaker 1: they cannot use the money to invest in something else.

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Speaker 1: They cannot use your asset assets and UH lend them

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Speaker 1: to UH traders who want to short assets. They explicitly

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Speaker 1: cannot do that. And they of course can't just take

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Speaker 1: the assets and give it to a different company to

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Speaker 1: see if they can invest it profitably and put and

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Speaker 1: then put it back later. Um. You know, that's how

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Speaker 1: many Ponzi schemes evolve. Very often, a Ponzi scheme does

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Speaker 1: not begin as a Ponzi scheme. The person who is

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Speaker 1: at the heart of it believes they can earn a

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Speaker 1: return on the money that they are receiving from investors,

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Speaker 1: and when that proves them not be the case or

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Speaker 1: not be reliably be the case, that's when they start,

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Speaker 1: you know, taking new money to pay off old investors

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Speaker 1: and they find themselves in an impossible spot of a

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Speaker 1: of a Hanzi scheme. So the rules were really clear.

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Speaker 1: F t X made the rules there Uh, there, there's

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Speaker 1: no way to get around it. It is a very

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Speaker 1: solid case of male fraud and wire fraud under US statutes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: now what about um, I'm guessing this is pretty big encompassing.

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Speaker 1: But um, if we found out that there was customers

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Speaker 1: had about one point four billion dollars worth of bitcoin

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Speaker 1: that they had bought and that we're on the exchange,

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Speaker 1: but then f t X actually had no bitcoin at all,

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Speaker 1: So they sold one point four billion dollars worth a

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Speaker 1: bitcoin to customers but actually didn't have it on their behalf.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's another big piece of fraud. I would imagine, yes,

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Speaker 1: that that is fraud. So whether this is a flower

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Speaker 1: like a tulip, or it's a share of stock like apple,

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Speaker 1: or it's a cryptocurrency, it doesn't really matter what it is,

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Speaker 1: it's still fraud and that's still illegal, right, That's right.

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Speaker 1: People do really fixate on does this, you know, fill

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Speaker 1: in the blink the f t T token qualify as

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Speaker 1: a security. It's interesting, you know, if the answers yes,

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Speaker 1: that means that the SEC could get involved to the

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Speaker 1: extent that there are US citizens who are victims of

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Speaker 1: of the you know, f t T fraud. Um, but

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Speaker 1: they don't have to be that, the US prosecutors. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to be a security. It's money, it's mail fraud,

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Speaker 1: wire fraud, all day long. Yeah. Now, several of the

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Speaker 1: questions that you had, UM that you that you hoped

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Speaker 1: he just thought maybe they should ask him these questions.

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Speaker 1: But some of these would be UM, missing money, so

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Speaker 1: fifteen million that was suspiciously, suspiciously transferred from wallets, um,

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Speaker 1: these loans that were issued to himself and other people,

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Speaker 1: things like that, and so several of these questions basically

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Speaker 1: hone in on that, like where is the money? Obviously

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Speaker 1: we know lots of money is missing. Is there any

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Speaker 1: reason why you would ask him specifically like hey, this

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Speaker 1: money it was misappropriated? Like where is it? Yes, there

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Speaker 1: there is, Mark, And this is part of my training, Uh,

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Speaker 1: trying cases for for thirty years on cross examination, quite

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Speaker 1: often you really don't care what the answer is. The

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Speaker 1: entire point is the question itself. So that's why I

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Speaker 1: was tweeting out these questions so people would be aware.

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Speaker 1: Sam Bankman Freed personally borrowed one billion dollars from Alma Alameda,

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Speaker 1: which is now bankrupt. Sam therefore owes Alameda a billion

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Speaker 1: dollars which could pay off a lot of creditors. Sam's company,

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Speaker 1: paper Bird, borrowed two point three billion dollars from Alameda,

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Speaker 1: So we've got a total of three point three billion

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Speaker 1: dollars that this guy borrowed. He needs to put it back.

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Speaker 1: You know, we need to know where that is, because

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Speaker 1: if you think about, uh, the entire context of the

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Speaker 1: scope of the problem, three point three billion dollars would

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Speaker 1: solve a significant chunk the entire problem. But who knows,

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Speaker 1: you or you and I have no idea if he's

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Speaker 1: lost the money gambling, or or it's it's on some

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Speaker 1: ledger or treasure wallet hidden underground in a bunk or somewhere.

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Speaker 1: You know, we don't know. The point of the questions

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Speaker 1: was simply to communicate to the world these issues and

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Speaker 1: what his answers are. You know, unless he surprises us

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Speaker 1: and says, hey, James, thanks for asking, I can have

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Speaker 1: that three point three billion back over to John Jay Ray,

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Speaker 1: the new CEO, you know, in forty eight hours. I

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Speaker 1: will say that the point is the questions themselves. So

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Speaker 1: then the next question, which would be asking about which

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Speaker 1: news organizations has he given money to? UM probably the

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Speaker 1: answer again isn't isn't important as the question which you're

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Speaker 1: just showing to the people, like, look, he bought off

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Speaker 1: a lot of these people, would that be a fair

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Speaker 1: assumption on that question as well? Yeah, well it's documented,

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Speaker 1: you know, I've seen documentation. I'm not going to name

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Speaker 1: him because I'm not sure of like three or four,

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Speaker 1: but it's just the tip of the iceberg. So he

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Speaker 1: can't say none. But he probably has done it so

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Speaker 1: many times he doesn't even remember how many news outlets

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Speaker 1: that are supposed to be objectively reporting on f t

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Speaker 1: X and the boy wonder Sam may have been somewhat compromised.

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Speaker 1: M hmm, yeah, definitely. And then of course all the

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Speaker 1: ties with the political situation that we have, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: millions of dollars of their I know kind of had

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Speaker 1: maybe some questions about that. He came out now and

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Speaker 1: said that he actually gave money to Republicans as well,

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Speaker 1: but he didn't want to say that because it would

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Speaker 1: be looked at very bad. He only wanted to claim

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Speaker 1: that he gave money to Democrats. However, lots of people

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Speaker 1: have done diligence through open finance, and seeing that there

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Speaker 1: has there was no money claimed. Is that an even

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Speaker 1: bigger can of warms? Now to go open up? This

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Speaker 1: is a can of warms. I get a lot of

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Speaker 1: questions from people about this. It makes customers who may

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Speaker 1: be out all of their money or a substantial portion

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Speaker 1: of it makes them pretty mad that where did this

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Speaker 1: money come from? Are those my assets? Um? And the

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Speaker 1: thing about Democrat versus Republican, just to get some clarity

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Speaker 1: on that, he gave two Democrats with a couple of exceptions.

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Speaker 1: And those exceptions were Republicans who were willing to co

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Speaker 1: sponsor his bill in Congress, and one of them was

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Speaker 1: the Senator from Arkansas. Um, but it was, you know whatever, Democrats.

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Speaker 1: His partner, however, UM, now I'm forgetting his name. It's

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Speaker 1: something like salom A, who was the quote unquote president

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Speaker 1: of f t X, was a Republican. He gave less,

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Speaker 1: substantially less than than Sam, but he did give principally

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Speaker 1: to Republicans. And so if you look at the overall

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Speaker 1: organization there there it's you know, some bipartisan giving there.

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Speaker 1: But to me, the most brilliant move he made was

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Speaker 1: when he gave an interview and said, you know what

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Speaker 1: I'm really thinking, I just might spend one billion dollars

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Speaker 1: to get the Democratic candidate elected in think about that.

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Speaker 1: They got to cut you off right there. You're listening

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Speaker 1: to the Mark Moa Show. I'm talking with James Murphy,

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Speaker 1: attorney about the ft X fiasco. I'll be back with

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Speaker 1: more in a minute. Don't go away, we'll go back.

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Speaker 1: All right. Welcome back. If you're just tuning in, you're

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Speaker 1: listening to the Mark Moss Show. I'm sitting down with

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Speaker 1: attorney James Murphy, securities attorney. We're talking about the ft

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Speaker 1: X fiasco. And if you're just tuning in, we've been

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Speaker 1: talking about a lot now. Right before the break, James,

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Speaker 1: I had to cut you off. You were saying that

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Speaker 1: one of the most brilliant things that he had done

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Speaker 1: was saying that he was projecting he would give a

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Speaker 1: billion dollars to two Democrats in the future. Um and

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Speaker 1: why is that even the more an interesting piece? Well, um,

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Speaker 1: so they certainly were grateful, you know, to receive five

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars, twenty thousand dollars whatever individual congress people or

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Speaker 1: their packs, whatever, um. But to say I will spend

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Speaker 1: a billion this is unheard of. Basically, what he is saying,

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Speaker 1: is I single handedly can push a candidate over the

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Speaker 1: finish line? That is what a billion dollars could do.

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Speaker 1: So think about it. This gives him a two year runway,

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Speaker 1: how do you think Democrats will treat any human being

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Speaker 1: who says, you know what, I may just give you

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Speaker 1: all a billion dollars to spend as you see fit

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Speaker 1: to elect your nominee. You know, he had meetings at

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Speaker 1: the White House, he was calm, He was meeting privately

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Speaker 1: with Converse people, meeting privately with Gary Gensler. He did well,

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Speaker 1: He got a good return on investment of his money

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Speaker 1: in the twenty two cycle. But to say you'll spend

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Speaker 1: a billion was really a stroke of genius because nobody

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Speaker 1: would say anything against him, nobody on the Democratic side

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Speaker 1: for at least two years. Uh, if he was still

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Speaker 1: able and not now kind of run out and the

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Speaker 1: money now, I don't know if I don't know how

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Speaker 1: much favors he's going to get anymore. Now, um let's

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Speaker 1: jump to another another piece. So I put out a

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Speaker 1: video on YouTube and then put out a with a

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Speaker 1: thread on it, and basically I was making the case

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Speaker 1: that uh, there would not be another crypto bull run

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Speaker 1: and what I was talking about was if you look

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Speaker 1: at and then you look at basically the entire cryptocurrency

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Speaker 1: market cap went up. You could, you know, basically close

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Speaker 1: your eyes and throw a dart um and and everything

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Speaker 1: just went up at this crazy amount. And I was

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Speaker 1: saying that most that you have to understand how the

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Speaker 1: cryptocurrency market worked in order to understand why it may

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Speaker 1: not happen again. And so a lot of people just

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Speaker 1: looked at the headline. They didn't like that. But the

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Speaker 1: part that I was talking about, James, was that most

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Speaker 1: people don't know, but most of the cryptocurrency market was

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Speaker 1: driven by venture capital money because they could get these

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Speaker 1: tokens at extreme discounts and then instantly have liquidity and

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Speaker 1: flipped them on the market onto retail at five, ten x,

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Speaker 1: twenty x or whatever. They loved it, and then they

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Speaker 1: spent all this money to then drive hype, including uh

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Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of dollars in advertising on Google and

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Speaker 1: mainstream media, et cetera. Obviously Super Bowl whatnot, and so

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Speaker 1: they loved it. All the hype was built. People thought

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Speaker 1: everyone was getting rich, but really it was just vcs

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Speaker 1: driving this. Now, my assumption was that based off of this,

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Speaker 1: and you kind of started talking about this in the beginning. Um,

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Speaker 1: these big events that cause a lot of harm then

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Speaker 1: allow governments to kind of run and maybe push policy.

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Speaker 1: And if they push securities regulations on these tokens, then

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Speaker 1: vcs can't keep doing what they've been doing, which would

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Speaker 1: then drive up a lot of that capital. I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying the technology goes away or that progress happens, but

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Speaker 1: we maybe don't see these big bumps. So let's break

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Speaker 1: that down little by little. So, UM, let's start with

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Speaker 1: why these maybe securities? And there's four pieces of this.

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Speaker 1: How we test? I mean, should we start there and

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Speaker 1: kind of look at that. Are these token securities? Will

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Speaker 1: the sec maybe cracked down on them as securities? Well,

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Speaker 1: I can tell you they've hired so taking taking a

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Speaker 1: step back. At my at my firm where I worked

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Speaker 1: until eleven months ago, we had sixteen of our partners

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Speaker 1: had worked at the SEC. We were constantly engaged to

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Speaker 1: help people assess their risk that what they were doing

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Speaker 1: was issuance of an unregistered security um and many of them,

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Speaker 1: once they got our advice, many of them moved off

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Speaker 1: shore to places like Estonia and the Isle of Man.

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Speaker 1: Places I have not yet visited to do their their

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Speaker 1: token offering, and then then they had to avoid issuance

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Speaker 1: to um uh to US residents. UM. So the Howie

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Speaker 1: test uh to me is a is an artifact. And

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Speaker 1: I disagree with Gary Gensler when he goes on every

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Speaker 1: show and says, I don't know why people are clamoring

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Speaker 1: for new rules or clarity of rules. Nothing could be

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Speaker 1: more clear. There's a case at the Supreme Court in

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Speaker 1: nineteen forty six that deals with Orange Groves in Florida

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Speaker 1: that clearly explains what a native token on a decentralized platform,

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Speaker 1: whether that's a security to me, it's a non sequit,

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Speaker 1: or it's ridiculous. It is square peg and round hole.

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Speaker 1: And so now we have briefs. I filed these briefs

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Speaker 1: where you try to apply the Orange Grove test to

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Speaker 1: something that was not unheard of certainly in nineteen six,

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Speaker 1: and I think that UM clearly the last two chairman

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Speaker 1: of the SEC has said basically, everything they've seen is

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Speaker 1: a security. Accept bitcoin and maybe accept ethereum. And so

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Speaker 1: whatever the law is, that's a pretty interesting data point

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Speaker 1: if you are in the business of minting tokens that

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Speaker 1: the SEC has said those are securities. So one thing

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Speaker 1: people miss they see these SEC enforcement cases against UM

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Speaker 1: issuers of these tokens. What they miss is it is

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Speaker 1: a crime in all fifty states to sell an unregistered security,

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Speaker 1: which is what the SEC is saying. These things are

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Speaker 1: people have gone to jail for selling unregistered securities. So

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Speaker 1: the risk is quite significant, and so you have many

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Speaker 1: many projects. It's it's astounding. Really, if you go on

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Speaker 1: coin market cap mark you know this. There's was about

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Speaker 1: to say twenty one, there's UH twenty two thousand tokens

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Speaker 1: and the vast majority of them have the the inditia

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Speaker 1: of securities UM. But you know what, in fairness, I

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Speaker 1: what I would say is the how he tests is

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Speaker 1: not a good test for what that these are securities.

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Speaker 1: And the reason is that you do not gain an

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Speaker 1: equity interest in the underlying UH operation. You don't have

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Speaker 1: a right to any of the profits generated by If

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Speaker 1: you GO Labs does a project that has a token

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Speaker 1: associated with it, you don't own a fraction of UGA

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Speaker 1: Labs and the vcs. To your point, the vcs have

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Speaker 1: on occasion bought these tokens with the thought that you know,

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Speaker 1: they'll rapidly appreciate due to some factor, either the success

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Speaker 1: the underlying operation or you know, the rising tide of

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Speaker 1: the alleged four year cycle. But really, the vcs are

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Speaker 1: buying actual equity of the underlying companies, not just tokens

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Speaker 1: where they have stock in these private companies. And when

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Speaker 1: people talk about this or that is a unicorn worth

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Speaker 1: a billion dollars, well, andreas in Horowitz was probably an

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Speaker 1: early seed investor in the stock of that company. And therefore,

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Speaker 1: should it get bought or go public on a stock exchange,

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Speaker 1: and treason Horowitz will reap. You know what vcs look for,

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Speaker 1: a hundred x return, a thousand x return, uh, something

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Speaker 1: like that. So, um, this is a big topic. There

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Speaker 1: are many conferences that deal only with this topic. A

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Speaker 1: lot of token buyers think they're actually buying some interest

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Speaker 1: in the underlying business operation, and they're they're certainly not

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Speaker 1: doing that. Well. I would certainly agree that a hundred

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Speaker 1: year old law about orange groves can't possibly work for

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Speaker 1: something in the digital age. And so uh and and

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Speaker 1: let me just set the record straight. I talked about

428
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: my video and on my Twitter thread. Um, I am

429
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: not for regulations. I think we should be free to

430
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 1: do what we want with our money. And I don't

431
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 1: need the government to protect myself. I actually be able

432
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: to protect myself. So I just do want to say

433
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: that as well. However, the law is what the law is,

434
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: and so I want to dig into a couple of

435
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 1: points on this how he tests and ask you about him.

436
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: If you're just tuning in, you're listening to the Mark

437
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: Moss Show. I'm sitting down with special guest James Murphy.

438
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: He's at a securities in exchange SEC lawyer, and we're

439
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: talking about kind of the ft X fiasco and what's

440
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: happening in the aftermath of that. I want to ask

441
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: him more about a couple of pieces of this, uh

442
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: and then ask him for his crystal ball what's gonna

443
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: happen next? You don't want to miss it, don't go away?

444
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: Well right back, all right, welcome back. If you're just

445
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: tuning in, you're listening to the Mark Moss Show, I'm

446
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: sitting down with special guest James Murphy. He's the founder,

447
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: was the founder and chairman of law for Murphy and

448
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: McGonagall um, and he's the securities and exchange SEC attorney. Now, um, James,

449
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:51,719
Speaker 1: you had said, you know, this hundred year old law

450
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: about such as orange Groves doesn't fit for digital assets.

451
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: And but the one key piece I want to hit

452
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: on is you said that UM, that's typically meant for

453
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 1: um people who think they're buying an equity or some

454
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: part of a share interest in a business. But when

455
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: I read the four points, and I know these four

456
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: points are broken down by another ninety eight points or

457
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 1: something like that, But when I read just the four points,

458
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: it says an investment of money, so I'm giving someone money,

459
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: uh to in a common enterprise, so somebody, some sort

460
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: of people are running this kind of a thing. But

461
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: three an expectation of profit. So it doesn't say anything

462
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: in there, and that I should have ownership. That's not

463
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 1: listed in this at all. But it's did people buy

464
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 1: it thinking they would get a profit? And UM, I

465
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: guess you know. Now that's subjective. You have to go

466
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: back and ask every single person in the world, why

467
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: did you buy this? UM? But I think if you

468
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: just google and I did this, if you just google,

469
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: like uh, you know crypto or all coin, like, it's

470
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: all is about investment. Like that's the number one keyword

471
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: that matches up with that, and so they all bought it.

472
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: I mean, whether you know people bought f t T

473
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: token because they can get a discount of trading fees

474
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: on f t T. That's not why they bought the token.

475
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: They thought that token up in value, right, Like I

476
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 1: get a discount at the grocery store when I type

477
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: in my phone number. But I didn't buy anything to

478
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: get that, because I don't think it's kind of go

479
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: op in value. It's give me a discount. So anyway,

480
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: I think that's what that expectation of profit. And so

481
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: I guess the question is did people give up money

482
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: and were they hoping into to a group of people,

483
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: and we're they're hoping for it to go up in

484
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: in profit, And I would guess the answer would be yes. Well,

485
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: mark your take. I don't know if you you have

486
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: you sound a little bit like a lawyer, but your

487
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: take has prevailed almost everywhere, you know, so you're on

488
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: the winning side of this argument. And Gary Gensler's argument

489
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: that this is this old um test is the one

490
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: we're going to use, and under that test, all of

491
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: these tokens fail. So if if if, if hypothetically so

492
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: I'm hey, you know, all these people that got Ato

493
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: mad at me, they say, oh, Mark, you don't understand,

494
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: like no one, they can't stop the progress. So yeah,

495
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: So if I started a project and I created token,

496
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: I didn't raise any money or I had had I

497
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: had some early you know, friends and family rounds or

498
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: some VC rounds, right, and we created the software, and

499
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: then I decided to launch this token UM that was

500
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: available UM and then maybe on a third party market,

501
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: those tokens became valuable and there was some resell going on,

502
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: But I wasn't actually selling those two people, and that

503
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: would be totally different. I think it seems it's the

504
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: very act of me trying to raise money for my

505
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: common enterprise selling something. Is what kind of makes it

506
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: that security? It's a it's ah yes, that's a telltale

507
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: sign of a security. Uh. And it's in you know,

508
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: the list of factors that have dribbled out from the

509
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: SEC over the last uh you know, ten to twelve years.

510
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: The way I look at it is everybody tries to

511
00:30:55,000 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: apply the Howie facts and test to their circumstances of

512
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: a token issue, and I would argue what we ought

513
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: to is the reverse. Let's look at the situation of

514
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: this token and see what it would mean to the

515
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: orange grows. Here's what I mean by that. What if

516
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: the investors in those orange groves did not acquire any

517
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: acreage of the orange groves, just as token buyers acquired

518
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: no property other than this ephemeral token. It doesn't represent stock,

519
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: it doesn't represent a claim on profits. Let's say we

520
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: took the facts of a token and put it into

521
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: that case. All right, So the investors in that case

522
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:52,719
Speaker 1: now have no property. They own no orange grows. Secondly,

523
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: let's take the of tokens where there is no income stream.

524
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: There are a few out there that operate a little

525
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: bit like a bond, but let's forget those and look

526
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: at the Those also have no claim on the profits

527
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: of the underlying business. So there is a business that

528
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: runs this program called the Graph and there are graph tokens,

529
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: And when you buy those Graph tokens, you don't own

530
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: any of the underlying business and you have no right

531
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: to their profits. So let's apply that to the orange grows. Now,

532
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: not only do the investors have no property in Florida,

533
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: they also have no right to split up the interests

534
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: of the harvest each year. They don't get their percentage

535
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: of the orange harvest. If that was the case, mark

536
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: in of that situation with the orange groves, with those

537
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: two factors, it's not that the government would lose that case.

538
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: The government would never bring that case. That never he

539
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: would have been brought. If the investors own nothing and

540
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: have no rights to any harvest, there is no case.

541
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: And so I'm arguing in the wind a little bit

542
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: on on this score. And I will probably submit amikas

543
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: briefs when the time comes, perhaps even in the ripple case.

544
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,479
Speaker 1: But I believe people are looking at it wrong and

545
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: that you should take the facts from the token world

546
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: and apply them back to that case, and and the

547
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: and the result is that case would never have been

548
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: brought because it would have no possibility of prevailing in court.

549
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: So there is an argument on the other side. Your

550
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: side has been winning and winning quite consistently. I don't

551
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: want to say my side, because, like I said, I

552
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: don't think we should even have I think we should

553
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: just disband the SEC That would be my that would

554
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: be my guess. They're supposed to protect consumers, but look

555
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: how good of a job they're doing. Um. What I

556
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: would say, though, is uh. And again I would ask, um,

557
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: I believe that you have like court law, our precedents

558
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 1: like this, how he is right, But the more times

559
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: it's used than the stronger it gets. And it also

560
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: starts to morphin evolve over time how it's being applied

561
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: to other things. So I'm obviously not an attorney, don't

562
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 1: listen to what I'm saying, and I'm just reading something

563
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 1: off of investopedia here. But it doesn't say anything about

564
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: applying it to an orange grove. I know it started

565
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: from that case. Doesn't say anything about they owned it

566
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 1: or whatever. It just says an investment of money with

567
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 1: an expectation of profit and a common enterprise. So I

568
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: would just go back to say, well, uh am I

569
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: giving it? Why did these people give up money? They

570
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: thought they were getting something back in return. But um,

571
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,760
Speaker 1: let let's get how about this? How about this mark?

572
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: What if you go to a casino in Las Vegas

573
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: and buy tokens and you're hoping that you can gamble

574
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: those tokens and make more tokens and then go back

575
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: and cash it in for money. Those aren't securities because

576
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: you don't own part of the casino. You don't have

577
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: an interest in whether that enterprise is successful. A better

578
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: example would be like Chuck E Cheese. Right, so I

579
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: go to Chuck E Cheese, I buy tokens and I

580
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: don't have any control or interest in Chuck E Cheese.

581
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: So maybe that's a good example. That isn't That's that's

582
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: an example. Yeah, but depending there's utility tokens, utilitial tokens.

583
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 1: You've heard of those. I think of UM airline mileage points.

584
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: You know that you receive these, but you don't own

585
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 1: any part of the airline, and you can use them

586
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 1: for stuff. To me. To me, the difference would be

587
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:36,879
Speaker 1: and again I'm no attorney and I don't really want

588
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 1: to be taking the SEC side of this, but for

589
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: playing Devil's advocate, UM, the way that I would look

590
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: at it is is if I'm going to Chuck E

591
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: Cheese and I'm buying tokens to play video games, I'm buying,

592
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: I'm buying the tokens, I'm playing the video games, and

593
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: then I'm done. But Chuck E Cheese didn't do a

594
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: I p O selling tokens to raise money to go

595
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: build all the Chuck E Cheeses that you hope one

596
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: day if they do a good job, they'll build the

597
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: Chucky Jesus and at some point I could then go

598
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: use them. So does it happen to do with like

599
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: the proceed of funds kind of thing like, where like

600
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,720
Speaker 1: it's a it's a factor that the SEC definitely uses.

601
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: And I would simply endorse what you said at the beginning.

602
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: There's really nothing unusual about an old precedent kind of

603
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 1: growing over time to accommodate new things. When you say that,

604
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: you are, of course describing the United States Constitution. So

605
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: there's no air travel at seven, you know, it's seventeen

606
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: eighties and all these things. It had to adapt to

607
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: new technology. But yes, I'm a little bit of a

608
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: voice out in the wilderness here saying let's let's let's

609
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: reconsider um whether it's really a good match for the

610
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: Howie Howie tests. So now let's see how good your

611
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: crystal ball is, and let's see, like where do you

612
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 1: think this goes? So you you had made the case

613
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: that you think that you know, now it's one I

614
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: had at another video where like maybe this was a

615
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: little bit intentional where he was taking all this money,

616
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: he was then working with regulators to impose all these

617
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: new regulations trying to almost kind of corner the market.

618
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: Um now even with them being bust, it brings even

619
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: more maybe potential firepower or attention that they could bring

620
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: and try to push through all these regulations. So I

621
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: guess the question I would ask is like, where does

622
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: this go? Do you think that to the point you

623
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: said that maybe this gives them some public attention they

624
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: can now push through a lot of regulations. Do you

625
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: think they'll start cracking down or do you think no,

626
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 1: they probably are not cracking down because they know they

627
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: don't have a good case and maybe nothing really will

628
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: actually come of this. Well, I think a lot is

629
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: going to come of it. And I put out a

630
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: list of top ten winners and top ten losers as

631
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: a consequence of the f t X implosion, and the

632
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: number one winner was Gary Gensler. So Gary Ginstler has

633
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: been getting some bad publicity because of this ripple k

634
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: which he inherited from his predecessor. Jay Clayton is the

635
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: one who authorized that lawsuit very shortly before he left office,

636
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: so he knew he was gonna have nothing to do

637
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: with it. The problem with that case is the public perception.

638
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: The problem is there are a class of x RP

639
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: holders who have intervened in the case. These are the

640
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: ones who are supposedly injured, the ones that the SEC

641
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: is supposed to be protecting. They've entered the case together

642
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 1: in a class action to ask the SEC to stop

643
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 1: what they're doing and stop destroying Ripple because they believe

644
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: in it. They owned the token, they knew what they

645
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: were doing when they got the token, and this is

646
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: a big waste of time. We are not victims here,

647
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: were good. We want you out of here. That is

648
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: an uncomfortable spot SEC in our investment. We're hoping to

649
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: get some money back out. Don't crush it to zero.

650
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: Pre that that is precisely at mark. As you think

651
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: about I know you're an investor, as you think about risk,

652
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: um you know, categories of risk uh and counting them out.

653
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: The biggest risk associated with Ripple is the government itself.

654
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 1: It's not fraud or misconduct or the market uh, you know,

655
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 1: reception to XRP or anything. It's the government is the

656
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: risk factor. That's not how it's supposed to be. And

657
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: what's weird And this sort of gets to your question,

658
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: what's weird is everybody in crypto you know this I

659
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 1: know this, everybody knows it. Of the twenty two thousand tokens,

660
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: some of them are out and out frauds that where

661
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: the people just issued a token, took the money and

662
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: split at the top of that though, I would put

663
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: XRP up there, e O s maybe the biggest four

664
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: billion dollars they took and disappeared. But x r P,

665
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: I mean they created a hundred percent of the tokens

666
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: in a pre mine, and they just enriched themselves, and

667
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: they spend it all in public policy and and uh

668
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 1: most a lot of what I would consider fraud in

669
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: a sense of promising things, promoting things that just aren't true.

670
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 1: But they have created utility uh situations, banks have settled

671
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: uh international remittances using ripple UM. So there's something there.

672
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, why don't you get the actual fraud

673
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: people who had no intention of building something gross ones? Yeah,

674
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: what about this case when the library? Um where that?

675
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: I mean that obviously the ripple is sometime next year

676
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: we'll find out. But library just got settled. Library created utility.

677
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: They actually have a working product that actually people use

678
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: my videos go on library or on Odyssey. Now, UM,

679
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,399
Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody used x RP, but they

680
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,760
Speaker 1: used library um, and they claim that they have utility.

681
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: And the judge said, there's no tribal defense for that,

682
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 1: being a uh, that's what that's the words that wording

683
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: that he used, Um, no tribal defense for that, Like

684
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 1: it's a security black and white. What does that have

685
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: an effect on potentially with ripple and other things. Well,

686
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: that had a ripple effect. Um. So yeah, all the

687
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 1: lawyers in the business were passing around that decision when

688
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,919
Speaker 1: it came out, and you know what you'll hear people say, Look,

689
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: it's one judges decision. What matters, what constitutes a precedent

690
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 1: is a decision of an appellate court. And so we

691
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 1: have all all these courts of appeal throughout the United States,

692
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,959
Speaker 1: and then the Supreme Court sits on top of that,

693
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,959
Speaker 1: and there are you know a lot of judges who

694
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: get things wrong, mostly get things right, and so people

695
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 1: will disregard a single judges opinion and what matters are um,

696
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: what appellate courts say. And so I got this question

697
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 1: on Twitter yesterday about what do you think is gonna

698
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: happen on Ripple? And I said, what I think is

699
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 1: gonna happen. Is everybody's gonna overreact whether it's a win

700
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: or a loss, because what this judge has to say

701
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: about it is really not going to be that important.

702
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: There are two more layers of appeals. What an appellate

703
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: court says about this and eventually the Supreme Court, that's

704
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 1: what will matter. But people will overreact. And what is

705
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: that overreaction gonna look like? You could see a lot

706
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: of other tokens get delisted in a hurry. Then the

707
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 1: liquidity fall fall out of bed and therefore, if you

708
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 1: can't sell a token easily, the value is gonna plummet um,

709
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 1: So there would be I would expect significant market fall

710
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: out if it's a you know, full on win in

711
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 1: for the SEC at the trial level. When you said

712
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,399
Speaker 1: it was a win for Gary Gensler, Uh, you thought

713
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,919
Speaker 1: he would be the biggest winner from this, you said, um,

714
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 1: And it is he the biggest winner because he got

715
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: it inherited this horrible case. But now it gives him

716
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: some leverage on that. Is that why you were saying

717
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 1: he might be the biggest winner. No, I was saying

718
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:23,399
Speaker 1: it because there were people pushing back, you know, politically

719
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: on regulation of the space and pushing back on his

720
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: enforcement efforts because he picked one with with a bunch

721
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: of people who do not view themselves as victims. But

722
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: I'm getting, you know, direct messages from people who are

723
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 1: extremely distraught that they then wiped out as a consequence

724
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: of the f t X complosion. So having a million,

725
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 1: you know, victims and a lot of bad stories clears

726
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:58,879
Speaker 1: away a lot of opposition in Congress and in the

727
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 1: media of who's the good guy who's the bad guy? Here?

728
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 1: There's a lot of Hey, I told you so, I

729
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: told you if they didn't come in and register with

730
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 1: the SEC, this sort of thing could happen. And now

731
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: it's happened. And now we need two things. We need

732
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,919
Speaker 1: draconian legislation to regulate the heck out of this thing.

733
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: And I'm going to use my you know, much much

734
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: larger enforcement staff to bring a bunch more cases. And

735
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: my fear is that they're gonna decide to go after

736
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 1: domestic exchanges on the ground crypto exchanges on the grounds

737
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: that they are trading unregistered securities. It is just as

738
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: illegal to facilitate a trade of an unregistered security as

739
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 1: it is for you or me to sell an unregistered security.

740
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: That we own and sell it to somebody else. That's illegal.

741
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: Arranging for that to happen is also illegal, and so

742
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 1: I will not be shocked. And Geinstler was gonna set

743
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 1: we'll be able to say. Look at a hundred quotes

744
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,760
Speaker 1: in the New York Times over the last two years

745
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: in the Wall Street Journal where I have said, hey, exchanges,

746
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: you're trading unregistered securities. You need to come in and

747
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 1: register with the SEC, and they have not done that.

748
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 1: And so one could wake up one day and there

749
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:31,240
Speaker 1: be at a court order that fill in the blank

750
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 1: exchange must cease and desist trading in one or many

751
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,839
Speaker 1: tokens that the SEC is very confident they would win

752
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: uh in in establishing that it's a security under the

753
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 1: Howie test. So he doesn't need to go file lawsuits

754
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 1: against twenty thousand cryptocurrencies. He could just go after the

755
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 1: three or four biggest exchanges in the US and he

756
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: could just kind of take it right there, right, And

757
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: I think you're aren't you one of the self custody keeps,

758
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: you know, no keys, No, I am, yeah, yeah, Well

759
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: you've had a big I told you so over the

760
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: last few days. So um to kind of again try

761
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 1: to clear up your crystal ball a little bit, like,

762
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: how do how do you think this plays out? Do

763
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: you think that, um, you know, maybe we kind of

764
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: wait and see he builds up some strength and then

765
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: we'll see what happens with Ripple. I think what Q

766
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: two of next year? Or do you think maybe the

767
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: more likely chances that he might just go after a

768
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: couple of exchanges and kind of do something there, or

769
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: do you think just government bureaucracy gets in the way

770
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 1: and we go another couple of years and nothing really happens.

771
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: I think he would really really like to have a

772
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: positive ruling in Ripple that he could use all around

773
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: the country. I do know they have many many cases

774
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: in the hopper that they have investigated that are pretty

775
00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: close to ready to go, ready to file in court. Um,

776
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: I don't know, don't have a crystal ball about whether

777
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: he's gonna wait. I doubt that he's gonna wait. You know,

778
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: the iron is kind of hot now. People are angry.

779
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 1: He's got Elizabeth Warren and in this congressman, I don't

780
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 1: know if you know him, Brad Sherman's from California. Yeah,

781
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: So they're just, you know, absolutely thrilled by this f

782
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: t X collapse in our demanding action immediately. Um. And

783
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: so whether that can meander through Congress or not yet

784
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: to be determined. But I think you are going to

785
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 1: see significant enforcement actions in and I hate to say

786
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 1: it really but because it's will be really bad to

787
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: the whole ecosystem, but I could see a case against

788
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: and it's change coming in now. Um. Yeah, just to

789
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: clarify something you said, so Sherman and Elizabeth Warrent trying

790
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 1: to push new laws or new regulations through Congress because

791
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: laws have to be set through Congress. The SEC just

792
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: would enforce laws, right, So they're an enforcement agencies. They

793
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 1: would enforce laws already there, so they don't need to

794
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: go pass new laws to just go enforce what they

795
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: think they already have. Those are two different things, Okay,

796
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,320
Speaker 1: it correct? So yeah, I mean you could see laws

797
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:27,359
Speaker 1: that say all digital assets or securities. You know, then

798
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: we don't have to bother with the Howie test and

799
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: everybody's dead, you know, all all everything's dead. Um, and

800
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,919
Speaker 1: just for the just for the crypto bros. They're like, no, no,

801
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 1: they can't stop. This is progress. Well, it doesn't mean

802
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: that these companies can't exist. It just means they have

803
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: to just file the securities, which people do every single day. Right. Um, No,

804
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: not that easy. It's not It's not easy at all.

805
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: I mean it's expensive and as I made the case

806
00:48:58,160 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: in my video, it's expensive and there's lots of discol

807
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: closures and there's all types of things that you have

808
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: to do. Um, it's not that easy. It's PI. Yes, yeah,

809
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: it's complicated. So it is expensive for sure. But once

810
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 1: you are a registered UM issue of securities like a

811
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 1: any stock any company trading on the NASDAC or New

812
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: York Stock Exchange or whatever, it's a whole new ball

813
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: game in terms of how you run that company. You

814
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 1: become subject to controls requirements in Sarbanes Oxley that mean

815
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 1: you're going to have to double your head count immediately

816
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: in order to generate the UM data and test the

817
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: data rigorously in order for it to percolate up to

818
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: accounting so that people can sign off on quarterly financials

819
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,840
Speaker 1: that must be reported to the SEC into the public

820
00:49:56,239 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 1: every quarter in ten queues. It's it's uh. And then

821
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 1: you know, the compensation of the top five executives in

822
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 1: the organization needs to be approved every year by the

823
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 1: by the shareholders. It's it's a radically different looking proposition

824
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: once you are a public entity and your securities are

825
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: listed with the with the SEC, the registered with the SEC.

826
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:32,359
Speaker 1: So it definitely slows things down, to say the least. Yeah, well,

827
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: you know, on the bright side, I guess you know,

828
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: instead of twenty two thousand projects there, you know, there

829
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: might be fifty or something that are really you know,

830
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: valuable and and and good projects or maybe less, I

831
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 1: don't know where it is a you know, an income

832
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 1: and perhaps profit generating enterprise. Then they could do it,

833
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 1: and you know, the rest would simply fall apart. But

834
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: if they have useful technology or intellectual property, it would

835
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 1: be acquired by the survivors. And that's why I look

836
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,439
Speaker 1: at this is a little bit of a deja vous

837
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 1: potential to the nineteen nineties when they're all these young

838
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: kids who quit there what they were doing at Harvard

839
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 1: and m I T And Stanford and all congregated in

840
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 1: one spot called Silicon Valley to build businesses on an

841
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: emerging technology called the Internet. And so now we have

842
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: the same thing. We have an emerging technology called blockchain technology,

843
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: and people like Vitalic and all the rest of them

844
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: are dropping out of school or dropping whatever else they

845
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: were doing to work on projects. Well in the nine nineties,

846
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 1: most of them failed, but some of them succeeded spectacularly.

847
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: And if I were to have a crystal ball, that's

848
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 1: my guests as to what this crystal ball would tell

849
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: me that we're going to find some really innovative, durable

850
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: survivor from uh this shakeout that is caused both by

851
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 1: market conditions, the crypto winner vcs pulling out and the

852
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:11,800
Speaker 1: government cracking down. That's quite a trifectorate. So you should

853
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 1: see a lot of projects go away and the strong

854
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 1: survive hopefully if we're still in a capitalistic system. I

855
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,720
Speaker 1: agree with that you can't stop progress. I'm super bullish

856
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,919
Speaker 1: on humanity and entrepreneurs um. The one thing I would

857
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 1: just say, and it's a good parallel that you drop,

858
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 1: is all those people went to Silicon Valley and they

859
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: started all these companies, and they raised money through friends

860
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: and family and and through early VC rounds. And there's

861
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,280
Speaker 1: nothing stopping from people building on blockchain technology and raising

862
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 1: money through friends and family and VC rounds. It's the

863
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 1: selling of the token that seems to be the sticking point.

864
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 1: So no reason why you can't still go build on

865
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 1: the technology, and no reason why you can't still raise

866
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: money from your friends and family and from from venture

867
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 1: capitalist et cetera. Um, that's how it's done the Internet days. Um,

868
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 1: all these That's how Uber got started, it's how Instagram

869
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: got started, and so you can certainly do that. Of course,

870
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: me being in the bitcoin camp is I don't believe

871
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:04,360
Speaker 1: everything needs a token. So that's that's that's that's a

872
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 1: whole different conversation. UM, I think we went we went

873
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 1: pretty long here, James, a lot of really good information.

874
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 1: I appreciate you taking the time and give me your

875
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 1: professional and expert opinion on this stuff. UM. I know

876
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 1: you're on Twitter, just kind of getting started. You said,

877
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: you just kind of created your account, so everyone go

878
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 1: give him a follow at Meta law Man m E.

879
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 1: T A Metal law Man. You're listening to the Mark

880
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 1: Mo Show. Thanks for tuning in. That's what I got