1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class A production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: Fry and I'm Tracy Vie Wilson. We talked about Mary 4 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: Sidney Herbert this week, who has been on my list 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: for a while. Like I said, she um that disappearing 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: inc thing got mentioned in our research for an episode 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: of CRIMINALI, and I was like, I haven't done an 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: episode on her, and I mean to um, she's very 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: interesting for a number of reasons. One like, we didn't 10 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: really get into it, but this was a time when 11 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: she was trying to really like bolster the literary world 12 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,319 Speaker 1: of England. This was a time when great works were 13 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 1: not written in English, yet they were you know, Italian writers, 14 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: French writers, etcetera. Were the ones in the Western world 15 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: that we're considered to be writing the great works. And 16 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: so it was really significant that she was like, great, 17 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: I'm going to translate those into English and make them 18 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: something that we do, and make them models for how 19 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: English writers can develop their own, um, their own works, 20 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: and thus kind of she planted the seeds of English 21 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: literature essentially, Um, the Shakespeare thing is very interesting. She 22 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: was a contemporary of Shakespeare. She was born I think 23 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: two years three years before him and died five years 24 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: after him. I think that's correct. My numbers might not 25 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: be exactly right, but she book ends him by a marginal, 26 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 1: narrow margin on either side. Um. There is a really 27 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: really interesting book that I was aware of and read, 28 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: had read a while back, and I came back to 29 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 1: it for this by um a historian named Robin Williams, 30 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: who really like digs deep on the dirt of the 31 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: Sydney family and how Mary's sons in particular got their 32 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: positions in court, which is some of that kind of 33 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: seedy um. But she also talks about how she really 34 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: believes that historian truly believes that that Mary Sidney was 35 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: writing the work of Shakespeare. And one of the cases 36 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: she makes is that this is a woman who was 37 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: from a literary family. Her parents wrote, all of her 38 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: siblings wrote, you know, her children wrote like they were 39 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: all writers and thinkers. And there isn't really the same 40 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: case to be made for William Shakespeare. Um that he 41 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: just kind of, you know, pops onto the scene. And 42 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: I don't have a firm that's not an area of study. 43 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: In comparison, I have done a lot of work on 44 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: I just want to mention it in case any of 45 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 1: our listeners who want to go check that one out, 46 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: because I feel like they're they're always a lot of 47 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: Really this person wrote the works of Shakespeare, and I'm yeah, 48 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: I am not willing to an express express an opinion 49 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: on it because people are too ready to yell about it, right. 50 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: I mean that's the thing too, That is a that 51 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: is a dangerous area to stroll into if you are 52 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: a historian, um, because people feel strongly about it, which 53 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: is I'm just relaying with that I don't actually have 54 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: a strong opinion because I'm like, this is going to 55 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 1: sound very counter to our entire show. But at the 56 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,519 Speaker 1: end of the day, I don't care who wrote them. 57 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: We have them and that's what's important. Um. Which is 58 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: not to say that it isn't important to like figure 59 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: out correct attribution and whatnot, but just that particular body 60 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: of work is so debated over and there are so 61 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: many scholars way deeper into it than I could ever 62 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: be that I don't, Um, that's their domain. Um, Which 63 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: isn't to say that I'm not interested in their work, 64 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: just I know I don't have the depth of experience 65 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: and study that other people have, And I'm like, great, 66 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: can I still read Midsummer Nights Dream whenever I want? Great, great, great, 67 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: great great great. I love this idea that in her 68 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: I don't want to call it old age because I 69 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: don't even think, you know, your fifties are old age. 70 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: That would feel very sad for me to say right now. 71 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: But I like in her her mature years, once her 72 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: children were married off, she was just like fun time 73 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: for Mary. Yeah. I Um. I started looking for a 74 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: picture to put on her social media with this episode 75 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: before I had read through the whole outline. Um, and uh. 76 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 1: There was one picture in particular, which I don't think 77 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 1: was the one that I wound up picking for various reasons, 78 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: where I was like, something about this picture, she looks 79 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: a little bit like a pirate. Like it wasn't just 80 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: the clothing of the era, it's like something about it 81 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: just seemed a little piratical. Uh. And then I got 82 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: to the end of the episode and I was like, oh, 83 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: maybe that's why she was running around shooting pistols and 84 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: stuff at this point. Maybe she also, um she did 85 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: in that whole thing, that whole era where she was 86 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: being very litigious, uh, and trying to put down peasant uprisings. 87 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: She she did, her family in their lands were involved 88 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: on the other side of piracy, of trying to capture pirates, 89 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: and because they had land at Cardiff that was that 90 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: was being um endangered by pirate activity and whatnot at times. Um, yes, 91 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: it does seem fun to think that she would be 92 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: out like with her lady friends shooting pistols. Fun. Yeah, 93 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: um yeah, it's very interesting. Different historians have very different 94 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: takes on her. Some are like, yes, she was, you know, 95 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: this brazen redhead who seized all the power, and it's like, well, 96 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: she was, but she also was pretty smart about working 97 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: the system and maintaining her her image as like a 98 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: very proper woman and and um and lady of the day, 99 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: and maintaining her connection to the crown in a way 100 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: that was you know, respectful up until William caused all 101 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: kinds of problems. But she's an interesting one, Mary Sidney Herbert. 102 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 1: Without her, we would probably not have so many pieces 103 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: of literature that she either patronized directly or you know, 104 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: just um encouraged writers to to go on with their 105 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: careers and create other things, which in turn inspired other writers, etcetera, etcetera. 106 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: Thus now we have the English literary tradition which so 107 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: many of us studied in college and probably never heard 108 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 1: of Mary Herbert in the mix. No, definitely heard of 109 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: her brother though, yep, so her her entire plan worked. Um, 110 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: good job. Mary. One of the things we talked about 111 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: this week was the whole little more the famine that 112 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: struck Ukraine in three which so many people have asked about. 113 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: I just I put the term in in our email, 114 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: which is an our Our email address has changed a 115 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: couple of times over the years, and there's a whole 116 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: lot of email that is from way back that I 117 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: no longer have. But it brought up like twenty emails 118 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: that were all requests to talk about this particular event 119 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: in history. Yeah, it's definitely not our most fun and 120 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:52,679 Speaker 1: kickie episode. But also, I mean it evidence has so 121 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: many problems bawled up into one. Yeah, it's an example 122 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: of what the relationship between Ukraine and Russia, or in 123 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: the time that this was actually happening between Ukraine and 124 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: the Greater Union of Soviet Socialist Republics has been like 125 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: going through history and that things like what's happening now 126 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: with Russia invading Ukraine is part of a historical context 127 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: that does not include this Ukraine and Russia having been 128 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: inseparable entities going back to time immemorial. That's just correct. Um. 129 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: One thing that I was really struck by as I 130 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: was working on this was that parts of it felt 131 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 1: really similar to the Great Famine in China uh while 132 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: Mao Zadong was in power, which we covered on the show. 133 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: I have not listened to that episode in a really 134 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 1: long time, so I don't know if that holds up. 135 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: But there were similar collectivization efforts that did not go 136 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: well and fed into this famine that was then addressed 137 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: in a way that a lot of ways made it work, 138 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: which is really one of the hallmarks of famines. Like 139 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: when there is a food shortage and the people in 140 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: the government and the international community respond to that food 141 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: shortage in a thoughtful and proactive way to get food 142 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: where it needs to go, that does not blossom into 143 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 1: a famine. Like the food shortage becomes a famine when 144 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: it's handled in a way that that the steps that 145 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: need to be taken are not taken to stop people 146 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: from starving to death. Um. Like most things that we 147 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: think of as famine have a man made component. Even 148 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: when it's like a widespread regional shortage of food brought 149 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: on by something like a drought or a monsoon or 150 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: some other natural disaster, failure to respond to the natural 151 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: disaster is is often what pushes it from being a 152 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: hardship into a catastrophe. Yes. Yeah, It's one of those 153 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: things where I in my cynical old age, like when 154 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: I look at this whole thing and I step back, 155 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: I feel like so much of these problems is driven 156 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: by megalomaniacal ego. Yeah, right, Like that's just it. Like 157 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: a couple of people in power who have that character 158 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: trait can literally cause devastation. Yeah. Yeah. And there was 159 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: a lot about this that directly came from the policies 160 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: of Joseph Stalin and the people who were closest to 161 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: him politically. Uh, and in the hierarchy of the U S. 162 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: S R. It was weird to work on this in 163 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: the context of what is happening in the world right now. Um, 164 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: this has been on my short list of topics for 165 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: a really, really long time, and the Russian invasion of 166 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: Ukraine is definitely a thing that made me go this 167 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: is this is part of this history equal context that 168 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: is connected to what's happening right now, and so it 169 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: feels like I should move this to the top of 170 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: the list. But also having something horrifying happening relating to 171 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: the same you know, the same uh people's in the 172 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: same countries. Uh, added a whole layer of urgency, I 173 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: think is the word in terms of uh, my focus 174 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: and work on it. Right. I'm trying not to take 175 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: away the most negative thing of like we'll never fix anything, 176 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: which is where I have been on a lot of 177 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: these discussions lately, which is not awesome. So hopefully everyone 178 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: will remember that we have to keep doing our best 179 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: to make the world better, even if it doesn't always 180 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: feel like it's working. Yeah. So, since this is Friday, 181 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 1: whatever was happening over folks this weekends, I hope it's 182 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: going as well as possible. We will be back with 183 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: us Sturday Classic tomorrow. Actually tomorrow, Saturday Classic is on 184 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: Rafael Olympkin, so uh connected to what we just talked 185 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: about today. He came up in today's episode, so we'll 186 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 1: be there for that, and then we'll be here next 187 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: week with brand new episodes. Stuff you missed in History 188 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: Class is a production of I heart Radio. For more 189 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 190 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.