1 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: Information and influence campaigns. This is probably the most sophisticated 2 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: approach to trying to modify policy outcomes that corporations and 3 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: public relations companies engage in. 4 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: That's Bob Brule, an environmental sociology researcher at Brown University. 5 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: For the past few years, Brule has been looking into 6 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,239 Speaker 2: how the anti climate science movement began, who was involved, 7 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 2: who worked with who, how much money they spent, and 8 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 2: how and why it was effective. This is a story 9 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 2: that's been told a few different times in a few 10 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 2: different ways, but always with some key pieces missing. And 11 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 2: let's just say we've found the pieces. 12 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 3: There is no question in the scientific community of people 13 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 3: who publish and peer with views journals that climate change 14 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 3: is real. 15 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: So Donald is talking about all of this was a 16 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: global warming, and that's a lot of it's a hoax. 17 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 3: It's a hoax. 18 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,839 Speaker 4: I mean, it's a money making industry, Okay, excellent pest 19 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 4: a golden opportunities. 20 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 5: The mere fact that the Climate Modeling Group was established 21 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 5: and the Tanker Project was funded in the late seventies 22 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 5: into start writing eighty one or two indicates that upper 23 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 5: management felt this is a good idea and wanted to 24 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 5: pursue funded. 25 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 3: It simply making ball fased prediction and then calling for solutions. 26 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 6: Before you see whether your. 27 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 3: Predictions pan out. 28 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 4: I mean, that's not science, that's umigical lobism. 29 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 7: Some of the predictions, like sea level rise, go all 30 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 7: the way back to the nineteen fifties, and what we're 31 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 7: seeing now is that all these predictions are coming true. 32 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 2: A lot of people today think of Russian bought armies 33 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 2: and information wars and the well oiled political propaganda machine 34 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: operating in the US as a modern invention brought about 35 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 2: by data mining and social media. In fact, those are 36 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 2: just new tools in an established trade, and that trade 37 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 2: was perfected in the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties on 38 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: one long running, well orchestrated campaign that spanned industries. It 39 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: manipulated not only the media, but also various institutions and 40 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 2: the general public. It turned America's individualism on itself and 41 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 2: twisted it. It planted the right people at the right 42 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 2: parties to make sure progress could be stopped. I'm talking 43 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 2: about patient zero in the US propaganda war, the creation 44 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 2: of climate denial. I'm Amy Westervelt, and this is drilled. 45 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 2: We don't often talk about the nineteen seventies and nineteen 46 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 2: eighties as a time of great hope and innocence. Nor 47 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:03,679 Speaker 2: do we tend to think of it as a time 48 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 2: of great innovation, especially if you weren't alive at the time, 49 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 2: or if you were still a kid like I was. 50 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 2: In retrospect, those decades are about excess and greed. Reagan, 51 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: your mom's terrible hair and shoulder pads. A conservative backlash 52 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 2: against the social progressivism of the nineteen sixties. But that's 53 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: looking back through the lens of what happened next. In 54 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 2: the moment itself, the late seventies and early eighties were 55 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 2: still pretty optimistic. America was leading the world in science 56 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 2: and engineering, and most Americans believed we could innovate our 57 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: way out of any problem. 58 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 8: And there's dependence on foreign sources of all, he is 59 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 8: of great concern to all of us. In the year 60 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 8: two thousand, the solar water heater behind me, which is 61 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 8: being dedicated today, we'll still be here supplying cheap, efficient energy. 62 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: That clip you heard just there, that was Jimmy Carter 63 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy nine. Six years previously, in nineteen seventy three, 64 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 2: the oil embargo had hit, prompting massive investments in renewable energy. 65 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 2: By the time Carter was installing a solar water heater 66 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 2: on the White House, Americans were graping about gas lines 67 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 2: and foreign oil, and u as oil companies were really 68 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 2: trying to do something about it. Axon alone was spending 69 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 2: millions on advanced research. 70 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 9: This is an internal Exxon memo from August nineteen eighty one, 71 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 9: and a guy named mister Glass is writing to Roger Cohen, 72 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 9: the director of the Center, and says, the only real 73 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 9: problem I have is with the second clause of the 74 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 9: last sentence in the first paragraph, which says, quote but 75 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 9: changes of a magnitude well short of catastrophic quote unquote. 76 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 9: I think that this statement may be too reassuring. 77 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 2: Meet Kurt Davies, an investigator who's dug up dozens of 78 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 2: documents that reveal what exactly the oil industry was up 79 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 2: to during these years, and he's not the only one. 80 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: That document he read there was dug up by journalists 81 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 2: at Inside Climate News, and others have been discovered by 82 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 2: journalists at Columbia University. That document goes on to say 83 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 2: it is distinctly possible that the corporate Planning Department scenario 84 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 2: will later produce effects which will indeed be catastrophic at 85 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 2: least for a substantial fraction of the Earth's population. In 86 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 2: another Exon memo sent a few years before the one 87 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 2: Kurt just read, there, scientist James Black warned Exon executives 88 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 2: that in five to ten years we could be facing 89 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 2: some hard decisions about energy usage and climate change. He 90 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 2: was talking about making those decisions in the early eighties, 91 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 2: but by that time Exon was starting to move in 92 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 2: a different direction. At the time when Black warned Exon 93 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 2: executives about climate change, they took them seriously. 94 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 4: They really wanted to have a research center that would 95 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,679 Speaker 4: be valuable onto itself to the country of the world 96 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 4: at large. It was going to be Exon's Bell Lab, 97 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 4: and it. 98 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 3: Was supposed to be something like Bell Labs, you know, 99 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 3: where the oil companies would try to do advanced research. 100 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 6: Exon was trying to become a research power in the 101 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 6: energy industry and the way the Bell Labs was in 102 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 6: the communication industry. 103 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 2: That was former Exon scientist Ed Garvey, Exon consultant Marty Hofert, 104 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 2: and former Exon scientist Moral Cohen all talking about Exon's 105 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 2: desire to build a Bell Labs Type Research Arm, Bell 106 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 2: Labs at and T's Research Arm invented and open sourced, 107 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: among various other things, the transistor, fiber optic cables, satellite communication, 108 00:06:55,600 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 2: the cell phone, the laser, and the solar cell. Exon 109 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 2: wanted to be that to the energy industry in the 110 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 2: nineteen seventies. 111 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 4: At the time when I was there, it was really 112 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 4: the heavy days of that development. I mean x On 113 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 4: at the time there was x On Nuclear, the was 114 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 4: Xon Solar, and Exon was developing batteries. I mean I 115 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 4: shared an off with the battery chemists. I don't know 116 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 4: what his exact contributions were, but I know they weren't 117 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 4: trivial in terms of lithium battery development. Other chemists in 118 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 4: the area working on other types of batteries and improving 119 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 4: the battery cycle life and stuff so for storage. Some 120 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 4: of the scientists in the office space that was in 121 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 4: that were doing solar panel development. 122 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 2: Ed Garvey was a recent college grad when he started 123 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 2: at Exon and thrilled to get to work with the 124 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 2: scientists there. The tech industry likes to think of itself 125 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: as the country's first innovators, but scientists have always pushed 126 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 2: toward the future, and in the nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties, 127 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 2: those scientists mostly worked for blue chip companies. Big companies 128 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 2: like IBM, AT and t Xerox and Exon were centers 129 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: of innovation at the time, were the incubators of the future, 130 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 2: and they hired only the best and brightest. 131 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 4: It was a campus of scientists. I mean, we're all 132 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 4: I mean, it was really really aheady time. I mean 133 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 4: I was just fresh out of college and the work 134 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 4: of always PhDs, and you know, we're all talking about 135 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 4: the research and this research and that. It was a 136 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 4: very exciting time. 137 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 2: In fact, the level of science being done at Excellon 138 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: at the time was so high that Garvey's boss, Henry Shaw, 139 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: sent him back to school just a year after Garvey started. 140 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 4: As I was working in the Exon Research and Engineering company, 141 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 4: said I you want to work in this division, in 142 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 4: this branch the company. You need a union card, which 143 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 4: is a pH d. I said, If you don't have 144 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 4: a PhD, no one's gonna take you serious here. So 145 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 4: I said, but we can use this project for your thesis. 146 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 4: You got to complete the coursework, but this project could 147 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 4: become your dissertation. 148 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: Exon was so serious about its Bell Labs of Energy dream. 149 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 2: It even poached Bell Labs executive research director at David 150 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 2: to run its research arm, the Exon Research and Engineering Company, 151 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 2: And at one point it planned to open a massive 152 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: research campus in Clinton, New Jersey. 153 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 4: Exon was developing this really big center for research. It 154 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 4: was going to be like a Bell Lab's campus. It 155 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 4: was a beautiful facility, and everybody was designing what they 156 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 4: wanted in terms of their new laboratories. And I actually 157 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 4: designed a laboratory for the Tanker Project. 158 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 2: Garvey lucked out and got put on one of the 159 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: company's most exciting experiments, what they called the Tanker Project. 160 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: At the time, there was decades worth of data about 161 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 2: CO two emissions collected from the poles and from a 162 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: top mount a Loa on the Big Island of Hawaii. 163 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 2: That data had formed the basis of scientist Charles Keeling's 164 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 2: work in the nineteen sixties, in which he was able 165 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 2: to show a steady curve upward as humans began to 166 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: burn more and more fossil fuels. Scientists today referred to 167 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 2: it as the Keeling curve, but the scientific community had 168 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 2: questions around how CO two was behaving elsewhere on the planet, 169 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 2: particularly around the equator and in the oceans. 170 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 4: The time, there's been lots of measurements at the poles 171 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 4: in the North Atlantic of the Antarctic showing that what 172 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 4: agets were cold and then really can suck CO two 173 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 4: out of the atmosphere. That's where all the CEOs is 174 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 4: being absorbed. If the other part of the equation is okay, 175 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 4: how much comes out of the equator. So we did 176 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 4: this with the Atlantic with the SOO Atlantic measuring the 177 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 4: release from the oceans. 178 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 2: So Exon was footing the bill for multiple scientists and 179 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: for a wide range of cutting edge equipment. Garvey and 180 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,439 Speaker 2: Shaw started out using equipment from the Lamont Doherty Lab 181 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 2: at Columbia University. Lamont Doherty was a leading edge atmospheric 182 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: research lab that the Axon team worked closely with. The 183 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 2: machine was picking up too much noise from the ship, 184 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 2: so Garvey and Shaw designed a gas chromatograph to do 185 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 2: the job, Modeled after a machine Rewiss had developed at 186 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 2: scripts Institute. The device took about ten readings per hour 187 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 2: of the CO two in both the air and the ocean. 188 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 2: As the tanker sailed the Atlantic and crossed the equator. 189 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 4: That was going to be. Exxon's contribution was the least 190 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 4: to an instant the Atlantic, and maybe we'd go on 191 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 4: and do other oceans hopefully. 192 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 2: What's very clear in speaking with Garvey and various other scientists, 193 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 2: both those working Xon at the time and those conducting 194 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 2: climate science elsewhere, is that any uncertainty that existed at 195 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 2: the time was not over whether climate change was happening 196 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 2: or whether humans were contributing to it. 197 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 4: The issue was not were we going to have a problem? 198 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 4: The issue was simply how soon and how fast and 199 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 4: how bad was it going to be? Not if nobody 200 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 4: at Exon when I was there was discussing that. It 201 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 4: was just, Okay, how fast is it going to come? 202 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 4: Can we do something about it? How bad is it 203 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 4: going to be? And you know, when is it going 204 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 4: to get here? 205 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 2: But not if That sentiment was echoed by Marty Hofert, 206 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 2: a longtime climate scientist who worked at NYU and consulted 207 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 2: for Exon from the late seventies until two thousand. 208 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 3: By this time, we had a lot of data that 209 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 3: the carbon dioxia in the atmosphere was increasing, and even 210 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 3: though the temperature of the Earth hadn't increased yet, we 211 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 3: had the various mathematical models, very advanced computer models, from 212 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 3: which we could sort of figure out how the climate 213 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 3: of the Earth might change in some future time if 214 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 3: we kept burning hydrocarbons for energy. 215 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 2: It's hard to imagine today, but scientists and companies were 216 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,719 Speaker 2: not at odds on the issue of climate science in 217 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies, and neither were Republicans and Democrats. 218 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 7: We knew that this had potential impact on the bottom 219 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:22,439 Speaker 7: line of Exon, and that it could affect geopolitics, but 220 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 7: that was an abstraction. 221 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 3: We were more interested in alternative sources of energy that would, 222 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 3: for example, very practically speaking, allow a middle cliss American 223 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 3: lifestyle North American lifestyle to continue without burning fossil fuel. 224 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 2: If you were a child of the nineties, it may 225 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 2: be difficult to reconcile this nineteen seventies version of Exon 226 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 2: with the company that would shrug off the Valdi's oil 227 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 2: spill just ten years later. But the tanker project was 228 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 2: just one of several ways that Exon was working not 229 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 2: only to understand climate change, but also to transition to 230 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 2: a new energy future in which it wanted to ensure 231 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 2: it had a key role. Here's Ed Garby. 232 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 4: Again, Exon saw this as if we can get Columbia 233 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 4: to work with us, if we can make contributions to 234 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 4: the real contributions to the science, then people can take 235 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:11,839 Speaker 4: us seriously when we tell them these are problems or 236 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 4: these are limitations that were to how you might limit 237 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 4: fossil fuel consumption and what the implifications would be. I 238 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 4: think I do think that, I mean excellent. At the time, 239 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 4: there was Excell Nuclear, there was Exon Coal, it was 240 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 4: x On Solar, and at the time Exon was trying 241 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 4: to be an energy company, not an oil company, and 242 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 4: so being taken seriously at the fossil fuel discussions was 243 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 4: to their mind, and I think it made sense to 244 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 4: me at the time that yeah, this is how you 245 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 4: would do it if you want to be seen as 246 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 4: not just being an industry hacked. He says, we don't 247 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 4: want you to regulate our industry. 248 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 6: Period. 249 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 4: You need to be saying, well, yeah, we recognize that 250 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 4: this is a problem, and this is how we think 251 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 4: you solved. These are these are the things that are 252 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 4: going on and so on and so forth. We're making 253 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 4: real contributions here. 254 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,839 Speaker 2: Hoefert too believed there would be a transition in the eighties. 255 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 3: And so I think what happened is they started to 256 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 3: realize that this can actually affect our business. I was 257 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 3: very naive. I thought that if they realized that climate 258 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 3: change was real, they would start making big investments in 259 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 3: renewable energy. With a huge company, they had a huge 260 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 3: amount of profits. Why couldn't they sink some of their 261 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 3: profits into a new area which was going to be 262 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 3: new business. 263 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 2: Had they continued down that path, we'd be living in 264 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 2: a very different world, looking at a very different future 265 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 2: next time on drill. 266 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 6: It seems to me that the fundamental thing that underlies 267 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 6: it is this change in what I call the political 268 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 6: power within the corporation. They became much more conservative, much 269 00:14:53,760 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 6: more concerned with the business, the traditional lines of b business, 270 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 6: and automatically much more focused on preserving that. 271 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 3: I think what happened is they started to realize that 272 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 3: this can actually affect our business. 273 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 4: It went from a really heady time to a really 274 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 4: kind of despair where thing we'll do a company was shrinking, 275 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 4: oils with oil, revenue was shrinking, and the Bell Lab's idea. 276 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 3: What I have to. 277 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 2: Drilled is produced and distributed by critical frequency. The series 278 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,239 Speaker 2: was reported by me Amy Westervelt. Our producer and composer 279 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 2: is David Whited. Richard Wiles is our executive producer. Our 280 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:44,359 Speaker 2: story and concept development consultant is Raka Murphy. Lucas Lisakowski 281 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 2: designed our cover art. Katie Ross, Michael and Patrella and 282 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 2: Julia Ritchie provided additional editing. Drilled is supported in part 283 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 2: by a generous grant from the Institute for Governance and 284 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 2: Sustainable Development. You can find Drilled wherever you get your podcasts. 285 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 2: Please remember to rate and review the podcast. It helps 286 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: us find listeners. Thanks for listening.