WEBVTT - A Science Journalist Tries to Hack Heartbreak 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:34.156 Pushkin. It was my first day of college. I had 0:00:34.196 --> 0:00:39.676 just arrived and he had started this freshman outdoor orientation 0:00:39.916 --> 0:00:43.356 trip where we were going hiking in the mountains and 0:00:43.636 --> 0:00:49.556 he had rock climbing muscles and a bandana around his head, 0:00:50.276 --> 0:00:53.396 and I mean, I think instantly there was a little 0:00:53.396 --> 0:00:58.276 bit of chemistry there. That's science journalist Florence Williams. The 0:00:58.356 --> 0:01:02.036 instant spark she's describing turned into a decades long marriage, 0:01:02.756 --> 0:01:06.796 but that marriage unraveled when Florence was fifty. The breakup 0:01:06.836 --> 0:01:10.076 cracked her open, and what followed as an outpouring of 0:01:10.196 --> 0:01:14.876 new and disorienting feelings. When the person you consider sort 0:01:14.876 --> 0:01:18.556 of your safety net, like your primary attachment partner, when 0:01:18.556 --> 0:01:22.796 they're suddenly gone, it's so disorienting in a way that's 0:01:22.876 --> 0:01:26.236 kind of like a deep freakout, and you feel it emotionally. 0:01:26.236 --> 0:01:28.876 And it turns out our immune systems and our bodies 0:01:28.916 --> 0:01:31.516 are really paying very close attention to that sense of 0:01:31.836 --> 0:01:34.236 freak out. So I had this tremendous urgency to try 0:01:34.236 --> 0:01:41.076 to understand it. On today's episode, a science journalist goes 0:01:41.116 --> 0:01:46.276 on an expedition to try and hack heartbreak. I'm Maya Shunker, 0:01:46.516 --> 0:01:48.996 and this is a slight change of plans, A show 0:01:49.036 --> 0:01:51.396 about who we are and who we become in the 0:01:51.436 --> 0:02:06.876 face of a big change. Florence Williams is the author 0:02:06.876 --> 0:02:11.236 of the book Heartbreak, A personal and scientific journey. That 0:02:11.356 --> 0:02:14.356 journey began one night seven years ago when Florence and 0:02:14.476 --> 0:02:17.956 her husband were hosting a dinner party. I was making 0:02:17.956 --> 0:02:22.156 a salad and friends were arriving for dinner at any moment, 0:02:22.356 --> 0:02:25.276 and my husband was in the next room, and I said, Oh, 0:02:25.356 --> 0:02:27.356 how's your dad doing? And he said, oh, I just 0:02:27.356 --> 0:02:29.196 got this email from my brother. It's on the phone. 0:02:29.276 --> 0:02:32.996 And he handed me his phone and on the phone 0:02:33.556 --> 0:02:38.876 was an email written by my husband to another woman 0:02:40.236 --> 0:02:42.716 talking about how much he loved her. And I was like, 0:02:42.916 --> 0:02:47.036 what is this? And it's that feeling when sort of 0:02:47.036 --> 0:02:50.316 the blood leaves your face and it leaves your limbs, 0:02:50.316 --> 0:02:53.356 and you feel your stomach sort of drop a story 0:02:53.516 --> 0:02:57.436 or two. You're not sure what you've just read, but 0:02:57.556 --> 0:03:00.996 you think it's bad, and in that moment, you sort 0:03:01.036 --> 0:03:02.956 of know that your life is not what you thought 0:03:02.956 --> 0:03:06.356 it was. And then the doorbell rang and our friends arrived, 0:03:06.956 --> 0:03:10.036 and I had to kind of smile all through this dinner. 0:03:10.156 --> 0:03:13.356 There was no opportunity to further investigate. You know, for 0:03:13.396 --> 0:03:16.716 a little while, you see this email on the phone, 0:03:17.396 --> 0:03:20.156 and the doorbell rings, and he doesn't know throughout the 0:03:20.196 --> 0:03:23.436 dinner party that you've seen this information, right, he doesn't know, 0:03:23.556 --> 0:03:27.676 and you have the kind of internal equanimity to move forward. Sorry, 0:03:27.756 --> 0:03:30.516 I feel like Florence, I would have had a very 0:03:30.556 --> 0:03:33.636 different response. The dinner party would have been canceled. At 0:03:33.636 --> 0:03:37.596 a minimum. Well, people are already coming through the threshold. 0:03:37.676 --> 0:03:39.796 You're a very gracious host. I will give you that. 0:03:39.876 --> 0:03:41.836 I want to be invited to dinner at your house. Wow. 0:03:42.076 --> 0:03:44.676 I could not say I talked a lot through that dinner. 0:03:44.796 --> 0:03:48.036 I think I pretty much sat there feeling really stunned 0:03:48.276 --> 0:03:52.756 and probably staring at my very wan salad at that point. Yeah, 0:03:52.796 --> 0:03:55.516 and not looking at your husband, who you're slowly starting 0:03:55.556 --> 0:03:58.156 to hate, not at all. Yeah. At one point I 0:03:58.156 --> 0:04:00.396 think I did excuse myself to go to the bathroom 0:04:00.436 --> 0:04:02.676 and I managed to take his phone, which was in 0:04:02.716 --> 0:04:04.876 the kitchen. There was no password on the phone, and 0:04:05.116 --> 0:04:07.876 we never there had never been a reason for me 0:04:07.916 --> 0:04:11.076 to look at his phone. But I did find that email, 0:04:11.076 --> 0:04:13.516 and I found a couple of other emails, and it 0:04:13.516 --> 0:04:15.836 turns out that he had been drafting a series of 0:04:15.916 --> 0:04:19.116 emails to this woman that he was kind of emotionally 0:04:19.316 --> 0:04:23.636 obsessed with. So the dinner party ends and you have 0:04:23.716 --> 0:04:27.116 to confront him about the fact that you've seen not 0:04:27.156 --> 0:04:30.036 only this one draft that he accidentally pulled up on 0:04:30.036 --> 0:04:31.716 his phone when he meant to pull up another email, 0:04:31.796 --> 0:04:35.676 but other drafts. And you know, you talked about that instinctive, 0:04:35.716 --> 0:04:38.356 biological feeling of the blood rushing from your head, in 0:04:38.436 --> 0:04:41.356 the stomach sinking, and I'm just wondering, with a few 0:04:41.356 --> 0:04:43.796 hours of distance, you can at least have it probably 0:04:43.796 --> 0:04:46.996 equally gut wrenching, but like a more measured response. And 0:04:47.036 --> 0:04:50.436 I'm curious to know what that conversation was, like, yeah, 0:04:50.516 --> 0:04:53.076 I mean I wanted to know what this meant, you know. 0:04:53.116 --> 0:04:55.236 And he had explained to me that these were draft emails, 0:04:55.276 --> 0:04:57.116 and I was like, what does that mean you haven't 0:04:57.116 --> 0:05:00.276 said them. I don't understand. And the fundamental question was 0:05:01.156 --> 0:05:03.996 do you still love me? You know, That's what I 0:05:04.036 --> 0:05:07.516 really wanted to know, and that's what felt really, I 0:05:07.516 --> 0:05:11.476 guess imperiled. And he said yes, he said I do. 0:05:11.596 --> 0:05:15.436 He said, I'm really confused. I don't want this marriage 0:05:15.436 --> 0:05:17.596 to end, and he said, in fact, I'm sort of 0:05:17.596 --> 0:05:20.796 relieved that, you know, because I've been keeping these feelings 0:05:20.796 --> 0:05:23.476 secret for at this point, actually a couple of years. 0:05:23.836 --> 0:05:28.876 He'd been obsessed with this woman. So it was really confusing, 0:05:29.396 --> 0:05:32.076 and I did feel this betrayal of trust because this 0:05:32.116 --> 0:05:35.116 has been going on so long. And at one point 0:05:35.476 --> 0:05:38.356 I said, you need to figure this out. Why don't 0:05:38.356 --> 0:05:39.956 you go on a camping trip. Why don't you go 0:05:39.956 --> 0:05:42.596 into the wilderness for a few days and really think 0:05:42.636 --> 0:05:45.356 about this. And he thought that was a great idea, 0:05:45.436 --> 0:05:48.116 and he did, and he came back and he said, well, 0:05:48.156 --> 0:05:50.916 I've done a lot of thinking, and I you know, 0:05:50.916 --> 0:05:53.316 at this point, you know, we have two kids. He said, 0:05:53.316 --> 0:05:57.436 I don't want to upset the apple cart. And I 0:05:57.876 --> 0:06:00.276 was like, well, that's all you have to say, I 0:06:00.316 --> 0:06:03.516 don't want to upset the apple cart, Like how, you know, 0:06:03.596 --> 0:06:07.996 where's the reassurance that he actually loves me, yeah, and 0:06:08.156 --> 0:06:11.036 wants to be in this marriage. And he just, you know, 0:06:11.116 --> 0:06:15.396 he just he couldn't say that, and so to me, 0:06:16.236 --> 0:06:20.276 that was finally the neon sign that I was not 0:06:20.356 --> 0:06:24.116 going to have the relationship that I wanted. He wasn't 0:06:24.156 --> 0:06:27.196 having the relationship that he wanted, and there just didn't 0:06:27.236 --> 0:06:29.476 seem to be a way to kind of, you know, 0:06:29.556 --> 0:06:32.956 move forward from there. I mean we were talking about 0:06:32.956 --> 0:06:35.556 sort of what we wanted, you know, what do you 0:06:35.596 --> 0:06:37.436 want out of this marriage? What do you want out 0:06:37.476 --> 0:06:40.916 of your life? And eventually he said something like, yeah, 0:06:40.916 --> 0:06:45.956 I just really want to go find my soulmate. And 0:06:46.796 --> 0:06:48.316 I mean he was telling me these things because we 0:06:48.316 --> 0:06:52.036 were also such good friends. Yeah, who are confidante. Yeah, 0:06:52.076 --> 0:06:54.356 there's part of me that understands that, Like, who doesn't 0:06:54.356 --> 0:06:56.756 want to go find their soul mate? But when you're 0:06:56.796 --> 0:06:59.716 the one who thinks you are his soulmate, you know, 0:06:59.876 --> 0:07:03.796 it's incredibly painful. Yeah. But here's a question, Florence. Did 0:07:03.836 --> 0:07:07.916 you think he was your soulmate? Yeah? I think I 0:07:07.956 --> 0:07:11.916 really did. And I felt like sometimes he wasn't a 0:07:11.956 --> 0:07:15.276 great soul mate, but he was yours. But he was mine, 0:07:15.276 --> 0:07:17.196 and we could we could make it better, you know, 0:07:17.396 --> 0:07:21.676 after thirty two years together, these two great kids, so 0:07:21.716 --> 0:07:25.716 many common interests, so many common values. I loved his family, 0:07:25.876 --> 0:07:29.716 he loved mine. Yeah, so he asked for a divorce. 0:07:30.356 --> 0:07:34.996 And one thing that was so interesting in reading your 0:07:35.036 --> 0:07:38.156 book is you've said that before all this you were 0:07:38.196 --> 0:07:42.036 fairly callous towards people who were enduring breakups, like, yeah, 0:07:42.116 --> 0:07:44.516 you'll get over it, right, that guy's a loser, that 0:07:44.596 --> 0:07:48.956 sort of thing, right, don't be so melodramatic. Yes, yes, exactly. 0:07:49.876 --> 0:07:52.596 But then when it happened to you, When it happened 0:07:52.636 --> 0:07:56.036 to you, you felt like all those over the top 0:07:56.316 --> 0:08:01.156 cliches about heartbreak were fully resonating with you. Yes, like 0:08:01.276 --> 0:08:05.276 missing a limb, the acts through the heart, the adrift 0:08:05.596 --> 0:08:10.476 in an ocean. Yeah, all those metaphors seemed absolutely perfectly apt. 0:08:11.156 --> 0:08:14.116 I just felt like my socks completely blown off by 0:08:14.356 --> 0:08:19.196 the power of this grief and this loss. You know. 0:08:19.276 --> 0:08:21.796 Claire Bidwell Smith as a psychologist who wrote a book 0:08:21.796 --> 0:08:26.916 about how anxiety is the missing stage of grief, and 0:08:27.916 --> 0:08:30.516 that really resonated for me. There's this tremendous sort of 0:08:30.556 --> 0:08:34.436 anxiety when the person you consider sort of your safety net, 0:08:34.556 --> 0:08:39.156 like your primary attachment partner, when they're suddenly gone. It's 0:08:39.196 --> 0:08:42.516 so disorienting in a way that's kind of like a 0:08:42.556 --> 0:08:45.796 deep freakout, and you feel it emotionally. And it turns out, 0:08:45.836 --> 0:08:48.436 you know, our immune systems and our bodies or nervous 0:08:48.436 --> 0:08:52.036 systems are really paying very close attention to that sense 0:08:52.076 --> 0:08:56.476 of freak out. How did this anxiety physically and emotionally 0:08:56.476 --> 0:08:59.436 express itself in you in the days and weeks after 0:08:59.476 --> 0:09:01.676 the divorce? Yeah, I mean first up was you know, 0:09:01.956 --> 0:09:05.236 intense insomnia, you know, the sort of like lying awake 0:09:05.276 --> 0:09:08.716 all night, feeling like you're really on edge. You're trying 0:09:08.716 --> 0:09:12.836 to kind of calculate everything, like your survival odds and 0:09:13.196 --> 0:09:14.356 where are you going to live and how are you 0:09:14.356 --> 0:09:16.556 going to afford health insurance? And who's going to get 0:09:16.596 --> 0:09:19.636 the kids? And what am I going to tell my friends? 0:09:19.876 --> 0:09:22.236 And what am I going to do now? That's a 0:09:22.276 --> 0:09:23.436 lot of what am I going to do now? What 0:09:23.436 --> 0:09:26.076 am I going to do now? So there was that 0:09:26.116 --> 0:09:29.756 sleeplessness for me. There was like pretty instant weight loss too. 0:09:30.636 --> 0:09:34.756 There was this sense of being so kind of full 0:09:35.076 --> 0:09:39.436 of adrenaline and anxiety that I've kind of felt like 0:09:39.476 --> 0:09:41.436 I was buzzing at one point. I have the metaphor 0:09:41.436 --> 0:09:43.636 that I felt like I was plugged into a faulty 0:09:43.676 --> 0:09:47.716 electrical socket. And then eventually I started getting sick. So 0:09:47.916 --> 0:09:51.596 I found out that my blood sugars were really weirdly high. 0:09:51.636 --> 0:09:54.396 And I've always been someone who exercises a lot, I'm 0:09:54.436 --> 0:09:58.436 fit no diabetes in my family, and eventually we figured 0:09:58.436 --> 0:10:02.436 out that I was diagnosed with an autoimmune type of diabetes, 0:10:02.436 --> 0:10:06.356 which is type one diabetes. Of just thinking in this moment, 0:10:06.396 --> 0:10:09.476 we can work to control our mental states, but it 0:10:09.596 --> 0:10:13.356 seems like something like an autoimmune condition or the inflammatory 0:10:13.396 --> 0:10:16.036 markers in our blood that feels so out of reach 0:10:16.076 --> 0:10:18.276 in terms of our ability to control it, even though 0:10:18.316 --> 0:10:20.396 by the way, this might be all illusory and the 0:10:20.476 --> 0:10:22.996 mental states are just as hard to control as the 0:10:23.036 --> 0:10:26.636 physical manifestations that our blood work, for example, but certainly 0:10:26.676 --> 0:10:29.916 I would feel so daunted by the physical expression, like 0:10:30.036 --> 0:10:33.076 this whole thing had just run away from me, exactly, 0:10:33.196 --> 0:10:35.956 and that creates more anxiety exactly. There's a meta level 0:10:35.956 --> 0:10:39.076 of anxiety, right, and what's the next shoe that's going 0:10:39.116 --> 0:10:42.156 to draw? And if my body is registering this pain, 0:10:42.996 --> 0:10:44.876 I need to fix it, And of course I am 0:10:44.876 --> 0:10:46.956 sort of a fixer. I didn't want to get sicker. 0:10:47.316 --> 0:10:50.236 It didn't seem fair to be heartbroken and sick at 0:10:50.276 --> 0:10:53.036 the same time. So I had this tremendous urgency to 0:10:53.036 --> 0:10:54.956 try to understand it. I wanted to understand what was 0:10:54.956 --> 0:10:57.916 happening to me. The science journalist in me wanted to 0:10:57.956 --> 0:11:00.356 go talk to the experts not only to try to 0:11:00.396 --> 0:11:02.916 understand what was happening to my immune system, but also 0:11:03.476 --> 0:11:05.996 how I could kind of game it, if there was 0:11:05.996 --> 0:11:08.036 a way to game it, to sort of speed it up. 0:11:08.596 --> 0:11:11.756 It sounds like it was a journey motivated by survival. 0:11:11.956 --> 0:11:14.956 I mean, you are a science journalist, but this had 0:11:14.996 --> 0:11:17.876 so many personal undertones. It was kind of like, the 0:11:17.876 --> 0:11:20.876 things that I find out from this expedition will have 0:11:21.116 --> 0:11:25.036 a direct impact on my ability to live through this. 0:11:25.596 --> 0:11:27.836 That's right. But it was really survival on two fronts. 0:11:28.076 --> 0:11:30.316 It was the sort of physical survival. I want to 0:11:30.396 --> 0:11:33.076 understand what's happening so I can get better, But it 0:11:33.116 --> 0:11:35.556 was also like, you know what journalism is what I do. 0:11:35.996 --> 0:11:38.516 It's who I am, and this is what's going to 0:11:38.596 --> 0:11:42.116 help me feel like I'm surviving in a more metaphysical way. 0:11:42.676 --> 0:11:45.396 You know, this is who I am. Yeah. I love that, 0:11:45.796 --> 0:11:50.396 retaining your own sense of individual purpose and fulfilling a 0:11:50.396 --> 0:11:53.956 mission on your own. So where did you start? How 0:11:53.956 --> 0:11:57.196 did this expedition begin? Well, I think, like so many journeys, 0:11:57.316 --> 0:12:00.956 it starts out somewhat accidentally. I ended up at a 0:12:00.996 --> 0:12:03.556 conference and I was a speaker there, and I saw 0:12:03.556 --> 0:12:08.116 another speaker there was Helen Fisher, whose biological anthropologist. She's 0:12:08.156 --> 0:12:11.156 written a lot about what happens to our brains when 0:12:11.356 --> 0:12:15.436 we fall in love. And I send her an email 0:12:16.156 --> 0:12:19.316 and I said, can I talk to you? And she said, sure, honey, 0:12:19.316 --> 0:12:21.476 come on over. And I just said, okay, look, this 0:12:21.516 --> 0:12:23.756 is what's happened. My husband of twenty five years just 0:12:23.836 --> 0:12:26.916 moved out a few weeks ago. I can't sleep. And 0:12:26.956 --> 0:12:29.476 she said, oh, are you having trouble keeping weight on? 0:12:29.516 --> 0:12:31.996 And I said yes, And she said do you feel 0:12:31.996 --> 0:12:33.916 really anxious? And I said yes. She said, okay, I 0:12:33.916 --> 0:12:36.116 can tell you everything that's happening. And I was like, 0:12:36.276 --> 0:12:39.396 please tell me, tell me what's happening. And it was 0:12:39.436 --> 0:12:43.076 so reassuring. It was so helpful for me, maybe because 0:12:43.076 --> 0:12:45.756 I'm a signed journalist, but I found it reassuring to 0:12:45.876 --> 0:12:48.676 know that there was a reason for feeling what I 0:12:48.756 --> 0:12:51.156 was feeling, for my brain to be kind of in 0:12:51.196 --> 0:12:54.996 this high alert zone. And she was also just reassuring 0:12:55.036 --> 0:12:56.956 in herself because she said, you know what, We know 0:12:57.196 --> 0:13:00.716 this because we have put heartbroken people in a brain scanner. 0:13:01.516 --> 0:13:03.996 Many of them have these exact same symptoms. You're not 0:13:04.316 --> 0:13:06.716 alone in the world. This is what the brain does. 0:13:06.916 --> 0:13:10.316 Our brains are built for attachment and because of that, 0:13:10.356 --> 0:13:14.436 they're also built for heartbreak. And she was so sweet 0:13:14.436 --> 0:13:16.116 about it. She said, I've been there. Let me tell 0:13:16.116 --> 0:13:19.316 you about my heartbreak. Funnily, that's what almost all the 0:13:19.316 --> 0:13:21.716 scientists I spoke to said. They said, oh, let me 0:13:21.716 --> 0:13:24.956 tell you about my heartbreak too, And that alone, right, 0:13:25.156 --> 0:13:30.236 is very comforting and sort of humanizing and makes us 0:13:30.236 --> 0:13:32.716 realized that even though this feels like such a singular 0:13:32.916 --> 0:13:39.036 and lonely experience, of course it is a universal experience. Yeah. See, 0:13:39.036 --> 0:13:41.396 you meet with Helen Fisher and she helps ground you 0:13:41.636 --> 0:13:44.476 by at least sharing Look, you're not alone in this. 0:13:44.836 --> 0:13:48.556 Let me also share my own personal experiences with heartbreak. 0:13:48.596 --> 0:13:50.396 And here's why all this stuff is happening to you. 0:13:51.076 --> 0:13:53.556 Where do you go from there? I went to talk 0:13:53.596 --> 0:13:59.356 to Stephen Cole, the immuno geneticist, who was analyzing blood markers, 0:13:59.796 --> 0:14:04.596 so transcription factors in our white blood cells that change 0:14:04.636 --> 0:14:09.156 the way we regulate different immune responses based on and 0:14:09.196 --> 0:14:11.436 this is so interesting to me, based on our social state. 0:14:11.916 --> 0:14:15.356 So he has for a long time been researching how 0:14:15.436 --> 0:14:20.636 people who rate themselves as lonely get sicker and trying 0:14:20.636 --> 0:14:23.116 to figure out why that is. Why would your immune 0:14:23.116 --> 0:14:26.036 system care if you're lonely. He has found that these 0:14:26.036 --> 0:14:28.996 transcription factors really change a suite of about two hundred 0:14:29.116 --> 0:14:32.196 transcription factors in our white blood cells. And so we 0:14:32.236 --> 0:14:34.796 decided to do an experiment where we took samples of 0:14:34.836 --> 0:14:39.156 my blood every few months during the course of my recovery, 0:14:39.316 --> 0:14:43.036 hopefully recovery from the heartbreak. And what did they find 0:14:43.076 --> 0:14:46.156 in those early tests, Well, he told me at one point, yeah, 0:14:46.236 --> 0:14:49.716 you have the blood of a lonely person. And what 0:14:49.876 --> 0:14:53.876 that meant for me was that my inflammation markers were 0:14:54.156 --> 0:14:58.796 really high. And at the same time, there were cells 0:14:58.836 --> 0:15:03.996 that fight viruses that were not getting expressed. Wow, So 0:15:04.036 --> 0:15:06.156 what were some of the interventions that you try so 0:15:06.276 --> 0:15:08.156 you get this blood work done? You understand there's going 0:15:08.196 --> 0:15:10.956 to be a baseline, and yeah, tell me about the 0:15:11.036 --> 0:15:13.516 kinds of things that you tried out. One of the 0:15:13.556 --> 0:15:16.476 places I visited on this quest was the University of Utah. 0:15:16.636 --> 0:15:19.356 There's a researcher there who studies the kind of salubrious 0:15:19.356 --> 0:15:22.196 effects of being in close marriages. How great that is 0:15:22.236 --> 0:15:24.876 for your health. And then of course, he had this 0:15:24.996 --> 0:15:28.396 litany of kind of bummer trivia about what happens after 0:15:28.436 --> 0:15:31.116 you've been divorced, how you're more likely to get sick. 0:15:31.236 --> 0:15:36.396 That really bummed me out. As one immunogeneticist told me, 0:15:36.516 --> 0:15:38.676 he said, you know, heartbreak is one of the hidden 0:15:38.756 --> 0:15:42.396 land mines of human existence, and we don't really take 0:15:42.396 --> 0:15:45.156 it seriously enough, but it does make us sick, and 0:15:45.236 --> 0:15:48.276 in fact, it increases our risk over early death, It 0:15:48.356 --> 0:15:51.356 increases our risk of metabolic disease. You know, all these 0:15:51.436 --> 0:15:54.956 chronic diseases, and most of them are really mediated by inflammation, 0:15:55.356 --> 0:15:58.356 which is what your immune system is responding to with 0:15:58.396 --> 0:16:01.396 this kind of anxiety. But then I went down the 0:16:01.436 --> 0:16:05.716 hall to visit another psychologist named Paula Williams, who said, yeah, yeah, 0:16:05.756 --> 0:16:09.556 you know, we know the statistics are bad health statistics divorce, 0:16:09.676 --> 0:16:12.236 but we know that there are some people who can 0:16:12.476 --> 0:16:16.236 be really resilient. And I sort of leaned forward and 0:16:16.276 --> 0:16:17.916 I was like, tell me more, who are those people? 0:16:18.476 --> 0:16:20.876 I want to be that? And she said, well, our 0:16:20.956 --> 0:16:24.356 lab has shown that it's the people with a personality 0:16:24.396 --> 0:16:28.396 trait of openness, people who are open to new experience, 0:16:28.716 --> 0:16:33.796 open to curiosity, and open to beauty, especially open to 0:16:34.396 --> 0:16:37.796 this sense of awe, sort of what she called esthetic chill, 0:16:38.156 --> 0:16:40.676 which is the idea that you can get goosebumps when 0:16:40.756 --> 0:16:44.076 you're listening to a beautiful symphony or looking at a 0:16:44.076 --> 0:16:47.796 beautiful painting, or looking at a waterfall. And she said, 0:16:47.836 --> 0:16:50.676 not only do we think that open people are more resilient, 0:16:51.076 --> 0:16:53.436 we actually think you could learn to be a more 0:16:53.516 --> 0:16:56.956 open person than you already are. I love that very 0:16:56.956 --> 0:16:59.836 hopeful message. It was so hopeful. I just clung onto 0:16:59.836 --> 0:17:02.036 it like a lifeboat. I was like, I can do that. 0:17:02.196 --> 0:17:04.236 I'm just going to claw my way through a heartbreak 0:17:04.236 --> 0:17:10.916 by aweing my way through heartbreak. We'll be back in 0:17:10.956 --> 0:17:24.276 a moment with a slight change of plans. Florence Williams 0:17:24.276 --> 0:17:27.276 felt blindsided when her twenty five year marriage came to 0:17:27.316 --> 0:17:30.276 an end, so she went on an expedition to try 0:17:30.316 --> 0:17:34.156 and understand the science of heartbreak and ideally game her 0:17:34.156 --> 0:17:38.436 way through it. Florence tried novel forms of therapy, immersion 0:17:38.476 --> 0:17:42.756 in nature, and even visited the Museum of Broken Relationships, 0:17:43.076 --> 0:17:45.356 where she learned rituals to help mark the end of 0:17:45.396 --> 0:17:48.876 her marriage. And throughout it all she kept consulting with 0:17:48.916 --> 0:17:53.476 scientists about the latest research. Florence was especially inspired by 0:17:53.516 --> 0:17:55.716 the idea that she can learn to be a more 0:17:55.796 --> 0:18:00.236 open person and how does one cultivate more of an openness, 0:18:00.276 --> 0:18:04.836 more of an ability to appreciate beauty? I think, like anything, 0:18:05.676 --> 0:18:11.636 you can ask your way into an experience by being present, right, 0:18:11.876 --> 0:18:14.356 like what am I seeing? What am I hearing? What 0:18:14.436 --> 0:18:19.996 am I smelling? What is my sensory body noticing about 0:18:20.036 --> 0:18:22.996 this beautiful place I'm in instead of just thinking about 0:18:23.036 --> 0:18:26.396 your to do list or the conversation that you had 0:18:26.436 --> 0:18:29.316 at work. There are sort of ways we can queue 0:18:29.396 --> 0:18:32.916 ourselves into kind of our sensory bodies that when we 0:18:32.956 --> 0:18:34.996 do that, when we can wake up our sensory bodies. 0:18:35.356 --> 0:18:39.156 It's kind of a shortcut to reducing our blood pressure, 0:18:39.796 --> 0:18:43.076 slowing our respiration, putting us in a better mood. And 0:18:43.116 --> 0:18:45.716 it's really mindfulness. It's just another way of being mindful. 0:18:45.796 --> 0:18:48.476 But it doesn't involve sitting on a cushion, you know, 0:18:48.476 --> 0:18:52.836 it involves actually being present in whatever environment you find yourself. 0:18:52.956 --> 0:18:55.716 But you can microdose AWE. It doesn't have to be 0:18:55.756 --> 0:18:58.316 the Grand Canyon. You know. You can find AWE on 0:18:58.436 --> 0:19:02.156 your block. You can look up at the moon you 0:19:02.156 --> 0:19:05.916 can watch the sunset, you can watch the bees for 0:19:05.956 --> 0:19:10.196 a while. For me, my greatest form off Lawrence was 0:19:10.556 --> 0:19:13.076 looking at the results of the twenty twenty election. Who knew? 0:19:14.756 --> 0:19:19.316 That's collective? Collective all, Yeah, the most profound form of 0:19:19.356 --> 0:19:22.356 pain relief I've experienced in some time. So on this 0:19:22.396 --> 0:19:26.316 topic of AWE, I'm thinking, I'm going back in time 0:19:26.396 --> 0:19:29.156 and remembering the times where I felt like my heart 0:19:29.196 --> 0:19:32.916 had been torn into pieces by another person, and your 0:19:32.956 --> 0:19:37.556 whole world is shaken up, and it's so devastating, and 0:19:38.876 --> 0:19:42.276 it's hard for me to know when you're really in 0:19:42.316 --> 0:19:44.356 the throes of heartbreak. I think it can be really 0:19:44.356 --> 0:19:48.396 hard to even imagine finding things beautiful against the backdrop 0:19:48.436 --> 0:19:50.476 of such pain. But one thing that was so reassuring 0:19:50.476 --> 0:19:53.156 for me is in reading your book, when you are 0:19:53.196 --> 0:19:56.916 in the throes of heartbreak, you describe almost these out 0:19:56.956 --> 0:20:02.036 of body experiences with AWE where you're just overwhelmed by beauty, 0:20:02.076 --> 0:20:05.276 And I mean, that's wonderful that it's possible to feel 0:20:05.316 --> 0:20:09.236 that way when you're just so torn up. Well, here's 0:20:09.236 --> 0:20:12.356 the funny thing. I actually feel like it's more possible 0:20:12.676 --> 0:20:17.356 to feel those things when you're so torn up, say more. Well, 0:20:17.916 --> 0:20:21.236 suddenly you're torn down to your studs. You're going to 0:20:21.356 --> 0:20:24.836 feel the deep abyss of your emotions. You're going to 0:20:24.916 --> 0:20:27.716 feel big emotion in a way that I had never 0:20:27.756 --> 0:20:32.436 really experienced before. And there's something about feeling those big 0:20:32.436 --> 0:20:36.436 emotions that actually extends also to the good emotions. I 0:20:36.596 --> 0:20:39.716 felt like, all of a sudden, I am a feeling animal. 0:20:39.876 --> 0:20:43.156 I'm feeling things I've never felt before, and I'm also 0:20:43.356 --> 0:20:47.556 feeling joy. Well, that's unexpected. I'm feeling beauty, I'm feeling love, 0:20:48.036 --> 0:20:52.076 I'm feeling lust like, I'm feeling just these big, big things, 0:20:52.956 --> 0:20:56.436 and in fact that's normal. You know. I think it 0:20:56.516 --> 0:21:00.636 seems counterintuitive, but we are capable, fully capable of feeling 0:21:00.636 --> 0:21:04.356 two things at once, and even feeling conflicting things at once. 0:21:04.796 --> 0:21:06.756 It's just that so many of us are uncomfortable with 0:21:06.796 --> 0:21:10.916 big feelings that we don't go there very off. I see. Yeah, 0:21:10.916 --> 0:21:13.916 So what you're arguing is that you're forced to open 0:21:13.956 --> 0:21:16.396 the lid on all of your emotions, and maybe that 0:21:16.476 --> 0:21:19.316 makes the feeling of all even more accessible because it 0:21:19.356 --> 0:21:22.796 requires a certain depth of emotion to feel those things 0:21:22.796 --> 0:21:25.116 in the first place. Is that right? I think? So 0:21:25.236 --> 0:21:28.876 it's like all the guardrails have now busted open, shattered 0:21:29.276 --> 0:21:32.716 and shattered, and all of a sudden you feel terrible, 0:21:32.996 --> 0:21:36.316 but you kind of feel alive, and then all of 0:21:36.356 --> 0:21:39.316 a sudden the beauty comes in too. Yeah. I spent 0:21:39.436 --> 0:21:41.676 quite a lot of time in nature. You know, this 0:21:41.756 --> 0:21:46.436 was something I was quite invested in believing was helpful. 0:21:46.556 --> 0:21:49.316 I had already written a book called The Nature Fix 0:21:49.756 --> 0:21:53.676 on how nature can make us happier and healthier. So 0:21:54.076 --> 0:21:55.796 I thought, Okay, this is a big heartbreak. I need 0:21:55.836 --> 0:21:58.316 to spend a lot of time in nature. So I 0:21:58.356 --> 0:22:02.476 started going for more walks in the woods. I just thought, Okay, 0:22:02.476 --> 0:22:05.516 I need more of this, I need more awe. I'm 0:22:05.516 --> 0:22:09.276 going to go into the wilderness and I need to 0:22:09.396 --> 0:22:11.356 learn how to be more self sufficient. I need to 0:22:11.396 --> 0:22:16.236 learn how to be comfortable alone. And I eventually ended 0:22:16.316 --> 0:22:21.636 up embarking on a thirty day wilderness river trip in Utah, 0:22:21.716 --> 0:22:25.156 and about half of that was solo trip. I thought, Okay, 0:22:25.356 --> 0:22:27.756 I'm scared of being alone. I need to learn how 0:22:27.796 --> 0:22:30.276 to be alone. So here I go. I'm going to 0:22:30.356 --> 0:22:32.516 paddle my own boat. Now I'm going to do it alone. 0:22:33.076 --> 0:22:37.796 I am going to nature fix my way out of heartbreak. Right, 0:22:37.876 --> 0:22:40.196 I'm gonna cure this thing. I'm gonna cure this thing. 0:22:40.596 --> 0:22:43.156 So tell me how that trip unfolded in how things 0:22:43.196 --> 0:22:45.396 turned out. I think I had sort of romanticized the 0:22:45.436 --> 0:22:47.836 idea of being alone in the wilderness, that it would 0:22:47.836 --> 0:22:51.156 be this experience of solitude, you know, not loneliness, but solitude, 0:22:51.156 --> 0:22:54.556 that I'd be able to really spend time thinking things 0:22:54.596 --> 0:22:59.356 through and looking at beautiful light on the rocks and 0:22:59.636 --> 0:23:02.116 talking to the great blue herons. And there was some 0:23:02.196 --> 0:23:05.116 of that, but there's also this sense of, oh shit, 0:23:05.396 --> 0:23:10.796 I'm alone. Yeah, I'm actually suddenly feeling even lonelier because 0:23:11.356 --> 0:23:16.236 I am alone out here. Yeah, I can see that. Florence, 0:23:16.236 --> 0:23:19.356 what do you think are some of the greatest misconceptions 0:23:19.356 --> 0:23:22.196 that we have about heartbreak? I think we have a 0:23:22.196 --> 0:23:24.996 lot of kind of easy pablem about how to get 0:23:25.036 --> 0:23:27.756 over it. And you know, one of the things you 0:23:27.796 --> 0:23:30.876 hear a lot is, oh, you shouldn't jump into another relationship. 0:23:31.156 --> 0:23:33.556