WEBVTT - Ep. 892: Ryan Callaghan on Public Lands and Conservation

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<v Speaker 1>This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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<v Speaker 1>bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening toast, you

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<v Speaker 1>can't predict that anything brought to you by first Light.

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<v Speaker 1>When I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First

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<v Speaker 1>light builds, no compromise, gear that keeps me in the

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<v Speaker 1>field longer, no shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it

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<v Speaker 1>out at first light dot com. That's f I R

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<v Speaker 1>S T L I T E dot com. Good lord,

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<v Speaker 1>it's Ryan Callahan back from the dead. Yeah, you're back

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<v Speaker 1>from fatherhood. You had a baby.

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<v Speaker 2>I assisted in having a baby.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I understand how long ago?

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<v Speaker 2>Uh we So Friday is the birthday, so it's very

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<v Speaker 2>easy to keep track unless you're in between Fridays like

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<v Speaker 2>we are right now. So it's two and a half weeks,

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<v Speaker 2>three weeks, first child, three and a half weeks. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>first first child ever and baby boy came out seven

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<v Speaker 2>pounds five ounces.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's a stat that people share. But I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think that.

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<v Speaker 2>That's it's all relatively Yeah, I don't.

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<v Speaker 1>Know that that means a lot to people.

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<v Speaker 2>Everything perfectly average, like the doc said, like perfectly average,

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<v Speaker 2>big hands, big feet, but might grow into those type

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<v Speaker 2>of things, and it was kind of hilarious.

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<v Speaker 1>Average little baby, yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, perfectly average, but you're like, oh, kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>clown hands and clown feet, which is funny. And then

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<v Speaker 2>definitely my hairline, which is a bummer for that kid.

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<v Speaker 1>The baby has your hairline. Yeah, it's like high up.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, widows peak comes back real.

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<v Speaker 1>Far born with widows peak.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>What's your biggest takeaway so far being a dad?

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<v Speaker 2>I you know, like the biggest thing is I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not that big of a deal. Like I think

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<v Speaker 2>we're blessed for the fact that it's not. We don't

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<v Speaker 2>follow in any like the horror story categories. It is

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<v Speaker 2>a hands on thing. But the thing that I just

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<v Speaker 2>keep coming back to is I'm like, oh my god,

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<v Speaker 2>I cannot paid parental leave. How did people manage this

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<v Speaker 2>without paid parental leave? I'm like, that is such an

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<v Speaker 2>like that is the thing that makes this thing doable.

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<v Speaker 1>Like just you know they give you in the military,

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<v Speaker 1>the dad three days. Oh yeah, you got three days. Well.

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<v Speaker 2>I was talking to my buddy Kyler, who I used

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<v Speaker 2>to build houses with, and he's like, two days per kid.

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<v Speaker 2>That's what we do, you know. And I'm like, I'll

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<v Speaker 2>just like so blown away by like I get a

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<v Speaker 2>focus on this as my job and get through that

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<v Speaker 2>initial learning curve. It's all a learning curve, but and

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<v Speaker 2>will be forever I suppose. But I'm just blown away

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<v Speaker 2>by that, like this is and I just feel like

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<v Speaker 2>it's got to like make for better relationships with you know,

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<v Speaker 2>between the parent and child bond.

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<v Speaker 1>It gets to be there and help a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>at first. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>You know. I took note that you somehow managed to

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<v Speaker 1>get the baby out of the hospital without having a name. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>And when we had our kids, I felt that by

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<v Speaker 1>the time we went away, they had a name.

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<v Speaker 2>Yep.

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<v Speaker 1>How how did you What did you have to say

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<v Speaker 1>to say that I don't know the name yet?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, the thing that I think got us out

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<v Speaker 2>of there without the name is the fact that somebody

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<v Speaker 2>was like, well, I thought you legally had to have

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<v Speaker 2>a name him, and I said, no, you don't, and

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<v Speaker 2>the hospital admin person kind of pauses for a second.

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<v Speaker 1>You get you guys discussed.

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<v Speaker 2>It, yeah, yeah, because we were fully being like, oh, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to see the little nipper. This is how

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<v Speaker 2>the whole thing's gonna go and by the time we leave,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll have the name.

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<v Speaker 1>He looks like a chucky exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And You're just bugged non stop to the point where

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, hey, Sam has got to get some rest,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. But every shift change, there's vitals and then

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<v Speaker 2>all the things, and and so we just got to

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<v Speaker 2>the point where, like, we have got to get out

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<v Speaker 2>of here. There's no rest, there's no time to actually

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<v Speaker 2>just like sit with this and figure things out. And

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<v Speaker 2>then yeah, I will tell you that we are still

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<v Speaker 2>nameless here at three and a half weeks in, but

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<v Speaker 2>we are very very close to about three names right now.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, now the mother ye shared I heard his

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<v Speaker 1>second hand. Sam shared with another friend of ours that

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<v Speaker 1>she said it took Cal months to name his dog.

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<v Speaker 2>Yep.

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<v Speaker 1>So I don't know, Maybe it's gonna take a while.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of it might be a generational thing, or

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<v Speaker 2>it might just be certain people. But I've a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of the folks in my extended friends and family have

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<v Speaker 2>been like, oh yeah, none of my kids Nate came

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<v Speaker 2>home with a name.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh really.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I felt like, I don't know why, I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>where I got the idea, but I just came away

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<v Speaker 1>thinking that it was like like it was like an

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<v Speaker 1>edict from God that you name before they come out.

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<v Speaker 2>Yep.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, now that I'm learning, it's not it's too late.

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<v Speaker 1>They all got names.

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<v Speaker 2>My grandpa passed away like three months before. He had

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<v Speaker 2>like this this series. The complications that were like, you're

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<v Speaker 2>gonna have to go in and get your chest drained

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<v Speaker 2>and all these things in order to stay alive to

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<v Speaker 2>meet this baby. And he was in perfect mind and

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, so his bummer ninety one or ninety two,

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<v Speaker 2>ninety one, ninety two and and uh and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he's a James. And so I was like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I can't get the name James out of my head

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<v Speaker 2>because I was so excited for this, for Grams to

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<v Speaker 2>meet this kid. And then you know, I was like, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>you got to stick around. He's like, well, how long

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<v Speaker 2>is that going to be? It was like three months,

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<v Speaker 2>and he's like yeah, and didn't make it. Yeah, He's

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<v Speaker 2>like I'll see him later technically, yeah, yeah, because he

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<v Speaker 2>just was he had you know, he's an old doc

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<v Speaker 2>and stuff. Didn't you know, do not resuscitate some of

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<v Speaker 2>the things. Sure, he had his plan laid out of

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<v Speaker 2>like that one.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't know it so he passed away. Yeah yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe I can't. I don't think I knew that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's like three and a half months ago, now,

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<v Speaker 2>you know so, but that was like and I think

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<v Speaker 2>James is still in the running.

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<v Speaker 1>Huh.

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<v Speaker 2>But now we're like so far down the name rabbit hole.

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<v Speaker 2>There's like the social pressure of being like, oh, you

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<v Speaker 2>guys waited three months and you came up with Jim.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. No, yeah, they're expected some real razzle dazzle now, man,

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<v Speaker 1>they're expecting like something crazy, you know, exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And a bunch of folks were like, Snort was

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<v Speaker 2>such an awesome name for your dog. We're really really

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<v Speaker 2>can't wait to hear what you name the kid.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, well you could take Snort, give that name

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<v Speaker 1>to the kid, and then think of a new name

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<v Speaker 1>for the dog, Yes, if you needed to do something

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<v Speaker 1>like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but we also kind of already did that because

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<v Speaker 2>I had gotten in a panic about getting the new

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<v Speaker 2>puppy to give Snort some backup prior to the kids showing.

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<v Speaker 2>That didn't happen. But the breeder that I got Snort

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<v Speaker 2>from her, the Snort's sister, the same litter was having

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<v Speaker 2>her last litter, and uh, I was like, oh my god,

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<v Speaker 2>I got to have one of those dogs. And I

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<v Speaker 2>just just got that dog yesterday. Oh so that dog

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<v Speaker 2>got one of the kid names right away, So we

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<v Speaker 2>name named the puppy roll.

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<v Speaker 1>Like you took a discard and gave it to the dog.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, you you have a two and a half week

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<v Speaker 1>old baby and you went and brought a dog into

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<v Speaker 1>the house.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but the dog's way more advanced than the kid.

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<v Speaker 1>Is.

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<v Speaker 2>Dog's eight weeks.

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<v Speaker 1>Old because they're living in dog years.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, man much. I love babies. I want to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about your other big life change. So, uh, A

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<v Speaker 1>lot of your listeners know Cal from Cal's Weekend review,

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<v Speaker 1>and a lot of you know that Cal recently went

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<v Speaker 1>over not even what I don't know if you months ago,

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<v Speaker 1>six months ago, six months now, six months ago, Cal

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<v Speaker 1>took over as I believe that.

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<v Speaker 2>Is it CEO as president and CEO president.

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<v Speaker 1>And CEO of the conservation organization Backcountry Hunters and Anglers.

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<v Speaker 1>What's going on. How's that been?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? I mean it's been awesome. I mean, as you know,

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<v Speaker 2>like I found like every which way to make all

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<v Speaker 2>my previous jobs harder than they needed to be because

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<v Speaker 2>I was always trying to find good conservation stories or

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<v Speaker 2>angles or or ways to make bigger impacts. And that

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<v Speaker 2>gets it's a way more complicated job, but it's also

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<v Speaker 2>in a way more simple and focused because it's like

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<v Speaker 2>that's what I'm doing as my job every minute of

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<v Speaker 2>the day.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you're leading a team of how many people.

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<v Speaker 2>Right now? We are thirty six? Yeah? Yeah, So membership organization,

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<v Speaker 2>active membership, you know, we got it like a bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of members that aren't active active membership. We're a little

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<v Speaker 2>over thirty thousand right now growing, which is great to see.

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<v Speaker 2>And then forty four chapters active chapters across North America,

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<v Speaker 2>you know we have they're not chapters anymore because they're

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<v Speaker 2>officially standalone nonprofits in Canada at Alberta and British Columbia

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<v Speaker 2>and which is you know out here we have a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of cross border issues, conservation issues. And then yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>we have everybody kind of works on everything, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>like a stewardship, so like hands on dirt, underneath fingernails,

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<v Speaker 2>side of the house policy, and and I kind of

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<v Speaker 2>break it down into like community building, right.

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<v Speaker 1>So people know like people that follow these things, people

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<v Speaker 1>that support the organ know that BHA, as it's commonly known,

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<v Speaker 1>the BHA stands for public lands, But like, like, how

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<v Speaker 1>do you describe like a layer deeper? How do you

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<v Speaker 1>describe BHA to somebody when you say, like, our mission

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<v Speaker 1>is to what?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've been thinking about this a lot because the

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<v Speaker 2>scope of the organization and I'm not beating up on anybody, right,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's like trout unlimited okay general yeah, yeah, and

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<v Speaker 2>then people are like, well, what does it at BH?

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<v Speaker 2>What is it there?

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<v Speaker 1>Got it?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly our em EF Yeah. And intentionally, the scope

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<v Speaker 2>of BHA was really broad because they wanted to fill

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<v Speaker 2>all these gaps that were kind of getting left out

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<v Speaker 2>of some of these species specific hook and bullet organizations

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<v Speaker 2>and oftentimes that it would just be like b A

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<v Speaker 2>lambland Okay, wilderness. Uh, And there's wilderness organizations out there,

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<v Speaker 2>but there weren't any that were really like firmly pro hunt,

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<v Speaker 2>pro fish.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep.

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<v Speaker 2>They may have been at one point and they work

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<v Speaker 2>on similar issues, but it's not like the masthead and Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>that idea is sound, but it makes the mission huge.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the benefit is we can think a little

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<v Speaker 2>more holistically. But the negative is we get spread really thin.

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<v Speaker 2>So by and large, if we were a like a

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<v Speaker 2>for profit business building the widget, as they say in

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<v Speaker 2>the business world, that widget would be conservation leaders, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's like people who show up and want to do stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>and that is advocate for their issues, which you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if you're working on behalf of BHA, it's our issues too.

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<v Speaker 2>But public land, public water, public wildlife, and the access

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<v Speaker 2>word would be like access to those things, and that

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<v Speaker 2>can get kind of nuanced on the wildlife side of things,

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<v Speaker 2>but it makes the organization a little more swift and adaptable.

0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.200
<v Speaker 2>And then on stewardship, it is literally coming out in

0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:56.640
<v Speaker 2>augmenting landscapes, so habitat work, which for us would buy

0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:04.520
<v Speaker 2>and large be trail improvements and juniper removal, some planting,

0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:14.520
<v Speaker 2>but our migration corridor work is really really significant, and

0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:17.959
<v Speaker 2>again because of our scope, nobody really knows about it.

0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:21.440
<v Speaker 2>But we just got the Bureau of Land Management's Conservation

0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:26.120
<v Speaker 2>Partner of the Year award, really which like we just

0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.760
<v Speaker 2>punched so far out of our weight class. There are

0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.800
<v Speaker 2>a lot of really big organizations get this, that have

0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:37.440
<v Speaker 2>hundreds of employees and dealing in many, many millions of

0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.600
<v Speaker 2>dollars of federal grant work to do this stuff. And

0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.520
<v Speaker 2>so yeah, really incredible that that we got this award.

0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:53.680
<v Speaker 2>And we almost exclusively remove or augment fence within migration corridors,

0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:58.000
<v Speaker 2>which basically you have your big.

0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.560
<v Speaker 1>Grazing is doing like the physical the physical work, so

0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:06.240
<v Speaker 1>people might use GPS collar data or car crash data

0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:11.160
<v Speaker 1>to know that these are problematic areas along migration corridors

0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:15.160
<v Speaker 1>and do the physical hands on work of removing barriers.

0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and oftentimes it's it's your grazer on the ground

0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.400
<v Speaker 2>who has their allotment and they're like, you can't keep

0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:24.960
<v Speaker 2>a fence up here. Oh, like we build them in

0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:29.320
<v Speaker 2>the spring and winter migration comes and they all go

0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.280
<v Speaker 2>down type of thing. And so we'll go in there

0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:38.640
<v Speaker 2>survey those fence lines. And so you have like your

0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:42.480
<v Speaker 2>your allotment fences, which kind of by design of the

0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:47.000
<v Speaker 2>BLM are always firm, like they're always up, non negotiable,

0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:49.920
<v Speaker 2>and we'll go in and augment those those fences to

0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:54.440
<v Speaker 2>wildlife friendly. And then you have your interior fences that

0:15:54.600 --> 0:16:00.680
<v Speaker 2>basically create pastures within that A lot those ones are negotiable,

0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:07.680
<v Speaker 2>so if they there's a lot the US used to

0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:11.720
<v Speaker 2>produce a lot of sheep, and there's a lot of that,

0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:18.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, uh, square fencing out there on the landscape that.

0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.960
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you're supposed to call it. And

0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.400
<v Speaker 1>just for people listening, like everybody can picture a barbed

0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:32.680
<v Speaker 1>wire fence, and you'll talk about whether it's three strand

0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:39.600
<v Speaker 1>or four strand whatever, And and for wildlife friendly fencing,

0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.400
<v Speaker 1>there's considerations about how low the bottom strand is, meaning

0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:47.640
<v Speaker 1>can prong horn or whatever get under it. There's considerations

0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:52.240
<v Speaker 1>about how high the top strand is, like can it

0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.560
<v Speaker 1>well it stop stuff from being able to jump it? Right?

0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.920
<v Speaker 1>Does that have barbs on it that could hang stuff up.

0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:01.880
<v Speaker 1>Then there's this other question of when you put these

0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:06.480
<v Speaker 1>these panels in that have like eight inch squares, yeah,

0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:10.880
<v Speaker 1>which no big games getting no big games getting through

0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:13.400
<v Speaker 1>that by going under right, Yeah.

0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.240
<v Speaker 2>And and it's a small game thing too, or at

0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:23.000
<v Speaker 2>their hell on sage grouse and like if you can

0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:26.240
<v Speaker 2>picture an animal on the landscape, you can find it

0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:29.000
<v Speaker 2>dead in one of those fences somehow, some way, mountain lions,

0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:35.520
<v Speaker 2>bobcats everything. But so go in, cut that stuff down,

0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:41.520
<v Speaker 2>roll it up, pack it out, also installing virtual fence,

0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:45.600
<v Speaker 2>so there's yeah, there's big grants out there for the

0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:52.080
<v Speaker 2>actual producer to trial virtual fencing. Right, so we'll put

0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:57.400
<v Speaker 2>up the and then it's vents is the working, Yeah,

0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.720
<v Speaker 2>put up towers for the creates the connectivity for each

0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:06.400
<v Speaker 2>individual collar kid. And so there's a bunch of cool

0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:16.760
<v Speaker 2>stuff happening out there. And the BLM uses their own

0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.479
<v Speaker 2>math to like measure impact on there and depending on

0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:24.320
<v Speaker 2>where you are in those migration corridors, you can you know,

0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:29.200
<v Speaker 2>it's all hard. But we had one project last year

0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:33.320
<v Speaker 2>that was a one day fence poll two point one

0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:38.240
<v Speaker 2>miles and the impact because of the location was over

0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:43.640
<v Speaker 2>thirty thousand miles of positive impact within that migration corridor.

0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:46.520
<v Speaker 1>Help me understand that it's.

0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.800
<v Speaker 2>I think it's because of bottlenecks that animals are moving

0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:55.360
<v Speaker 2>through and dispersing too, got it? And then and then

0:18:55.600 --> 0:19:00.320
<v Speaker 2>some of them are six miles and way less too.

0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:06.320
<v Speaker 2>So our job, the steward teamship team's job is to

0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:10.280
<v Speaker 2>look at these projects. And then because most of what

0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.720
<v Speaker 2>we do and this is like the doing things the

0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:16.639
<v Speaker 2>hard way, but I think in the long run the

0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:23.320
<v Speaker 2>better way is were trying to empower whoever wants to

0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:27.360
<v Speaker 2>show up to do the work. So volunteers because we

0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:30.440
<v Speaker 2>want people to have that sense of ownership in their

0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:35.160
<v Speaker 2>public lands and resources. So and then they're all mixed groups.

0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:39.040
<v Speaker 2>So you have a lot of people who will because

0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:42.200
<v Speaker 2>we'll put up signage at like riis and and try

0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:46.560
<v Speaker 2>to get people from all slices of the pie to

0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:50.520
<v Speaker 2>show up, and they're in this mixed group. And we

0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:52.560
<v Speaker 2>try to get people to camp out on a Friday night,

0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:57.159
<v Speaker 2>so you leave work with your car, camp and stuff,

0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:03.320
<v Speaker 2>ideally show up Friday night. Oftentimes we try to have

0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.760
<v Speaker 2>some sort of wild game food there for the volunteers,

0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:10.159
<v Speaker 2>and then we get to talk about wild food and

0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:14.920
<v Speaker 2>where it comes from and and everybody gets a taste

0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:18.560
<v Speaker 2>of that. The next morning, you get a brief on

0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:21.080
<v Speaker 2>what we're going to do that day, you get tools,

0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.840
<v Speaker 2>you get team leads. We get lots and lots of

0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:27.800
<v Speaker 2>repeat volunteers on these things, so they get you know,

0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:31.760
<v Speaker 2>you kind of have like crew chiefs that are volunteers too,

0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:39.600
<v Speaker 2>and then you're out there rubbing shoulders with hunters, non hunters, birders, whatever.

0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:41.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, people who just thought it was was neat

0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:46.040
<v Speaker 2>and certainly people at all across the skill level spectrum,

0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:50.520
<v Speaker 2>and then you have this sweat equity in your public lands.

0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:56.560
<v Speaker 2>You have Bureau of Land Management professionals out there. Oftentimes

0:20:56.600 --> 0:21:01.240
<v Speaker 2>you have the grazers out there too, And it's really

0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:03.919
<v Speaker 2>the secret sauce, right, because you have people who are like,

0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:08.439
<v Speaker 2>nobody gives a shit about this stuff, and then they

0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:09.800
<v Speaker 2>kind of get blown away by.

0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:11.680
<v Speaker 1>Like, oh yeah, man, he's.

0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:12.760
<v Speaker 2>Are really random people.

0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:14.160
<v Speaker 1>People showing up and doing it.

0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:20.440
<v Speaker 2>Care about this stuff. So we've gotten two thousand volunteers

0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.280
<v Speaker 2>out on the landscape right now. And you know, the idea,

0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:25.520
<v Speaker 2>right is like there'll be like a little ripple effect

0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:30.240
<v Speaker 2>within those communities and and they get it to be like,

0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:33.320
<v Speaker 2>oh my gosh, this is really hard stuff, but it

0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:37.760
<v Speaker 2>has an outsized impact and rub shoulders with new people

0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:42.880
<v Speaker 2>tried wild game for the first time. And so our

0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:46.879
<v Speaker 2>stewardship coordinators have a really hard job because they're handling

0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:49.400
<v Speaker 2>a lot of logistics and trying to find these projects

0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:53.040
<v Speaker 2>where you can conceivably draw from a bunch of population

0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:57.359
<v Speaker 2>centers to get people out and then make sure that

0:21:57.400 --> 0:21:59.640
<v Speaker 2>you have people on the ground too that are supportive

0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:02.720
<v Speaker 2>of the right because you have a lot of burned

0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:07.760
<v Speaker 2>out folks on the landscape who are like because these contracts,

0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:11.240
<v Speaker 2>some of these contracts don't get bit on. Some of

0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:15.680
<v Speaker 2>these contracts get picked up by groups that are well

0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:20.240
<v Speaker 2>intentioned but just can't get things done on the landscape.

0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:25.439
<v Speaker 2>And we want to have a stellar reputation, right, and

0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:27.760
<v Speaker 2>so far it's working right. So we got got that award,

0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:28.600
<v Speaker 2>which is you want.

0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:29.679
<v Speaker 1>To get like if you say you're gonna do it,

0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:33.680
<v Speaker 1>you're gonna do it. Yeah. Yeah, Now you guys here,

0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:38.240
<v Speaker 1>you brought me this shirt, Phil, can you see this? Good?

0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:44.600
<v Speaker 1>Cal brought me this shirt. So Michigan says this land

0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:47.600
<v Speaker 1>is my land, but it's like them I Michigan and

0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:52.680
<v Speaker 1>it shows an orange, it shows public land.

0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:54.400
<v Speaker 2>Thank you buddy, Phil.

0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:58.879
<v Speaker 1>Tell me why you can best see this? Sucker. Okay,

0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:03.639
<v Speaker 1>here's Michigan. Those public land in orange. Okay, this is

0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:06.280
<v Speaker 1>all public land in Michigan. And you were saying the

0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:08.800
<v Speaker 1>point of the shirt is show here's a stick like

0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:11.800
<v Speaker 1>we Oftentimes a lot of guys, especially people out west,

0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:15.360
<v Speaker 1>associate public land with out west and I'm just taught you.

0:23:15.359 --> 0:23:20.600
<v Speaker 1>You mentioned big gain migrations, juniper encroachment. Okay, these are

0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:23.080
<v Speaker 1>like these are sort of like Western things. But then

0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:27.879
<v Speaker 1>you got forty four forty four chapters all over in

0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:34.640
<v Speaker 1>the east, right, what like help me understand that? So Michigan,

0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:36.400
<v Speaker 1>I get it. Like, man, there's a boatload of public

0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:42.159
<v Speaker 1>land in Michigan. But if you go south of there, Ohio, Indiana,

0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:46.520
<v Speaker 1>right much less. Right, you get up in the northeast,

0:23:46.520 --> 0:23:48.280
<v Speaker 1>you get more. But you got these pockets where there's

0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:51.679
<v Speaker 1>not much, but you got chapters there, and you got

0:23:51.720 --> 0:23:55.880
<v Speaker 1>volunteers there. If what is the what is the eastern

0:23:55.920 --> 0:23:59.320
<v Speaker 1>equivalent of pulling fences? What is the Eastern equivalent of

0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:04.199
<v Speaker 1>improved grasslands by removing junipers in areas where junipers are

0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:06.879
<v Speaker 1>encroaching on Western grasslands? Like what does that look like

0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:07.480
<v Speaker 1>somewhere else?

0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:12.240
<v Speaker 2>Well, the juniper like the green glacier thing that I

0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:16.000
<v Speaker 2>know we've covered on meat Eater before. That juniper encroachment

0:24:16.040 --> 0:24:19.879
<v Speaker 2>into our grasslands is a major issue throughout the whole

0:24:20.280 --> 0:24:27.680
<v Speaker 2>prairie states. And we'll do some of that work in Oklahoma, Kansas, Iowa,

0:24:30.160 --> 0:24:33.480
<v Speaker 2>and and then there's there's a lot of burning you know,

0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:36.920
<v Speaker 2>out out in most states too. And then just low

0:24:37.040 --> 0:24:40.160
<v Speaker 2>barrier to entry, right like what BHA has been doing

0:24:40.200 --> 0:24:46.520
<v Speaker 2>well and and really My dream right is, is to

0:24:46.600 --> 0:24:52.040
<v Speaker 2>have an accessible conservation group to where it's like, if

0:24:52.040 --> 0:24:55.240
<v Speaker 2>you don't have a bunch of money, we still got

0:24:55.280 --> 0:24:59.400
<v Speaker 2>plenty of things for you to do. If you don't

0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:01.480
<v Speaker 2>I want to go to a banquet, we got stuff

0:25:01.480 --> 0:25:04.280
<v Speaker 2>for you to do if you know. I want the

0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:10.199
<v Speaker 2>whole political spectrum, the whole working class spectrum, to be

0:25:10.920 --> 0:25:14.600
<v Speaker 2>invested in their public land, public water, in public wildlife,

0:25:14.840 --> 0:25:18.280
<v Speaker 2>even if you never step foot or interact with those things.

0:25:18.520 --> 0:25:20.960
<v Speaker 2>I got lots of arguments as to why they should matter.

0:25:23.320 --> 0:25:26.640
<v Speaker 2>But if you show up to these community events, you

0:25:26.680 --> 0:25:29.320
<v Speaker 2>get to meet these people firsthand, and you may not

0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:32.439
<v Speaker 2>have a thing in common other than the fact that

0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:36.280
<v Speaker 2>you appreciate this stuff. But turns out that's a lot right.

0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:42.719
<v Speaker 2>So stewardship in some areas may never get beyond a

0:25:43.040 --> 0:25:48.240
<v Speaker 2>public land trash pickup, but oftentimes we'll make them. You know,

0:25:48.560 --> 0:25:50.800
<v Speaker 2>it's like what we talk about a lot, right, It's

0:25:50.840 --> 0:25:53.760
<v Speaker 2>like you can have a really strong mess message as

0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:58.800
<v Speaker 2>long as it's like eighty percent fun. So we'll have

0:25:59.160 --> 0:26:02.640
<v Speaker 2>a biologists come out and talk about turkeys, uh, and

0:26:02.720 --> 0:26:05.879
<v Speaker 2>why what you're doing picking up trash in this area

0:26:05.920 --> 0:26:10.280
<v Speaker 2>is a good thing for that resource or talk about

0:26:10.440 --> 0:26:16.040
<v Speaker 2>burning ecology stuff like that. Have giveaways, but make it

0:26:16.080 --> 0:26:19.520
<v Speaker 2>like a family friendly event because you know, one of

0:26:19.520 --> 0:26:21.840
<v Speaker 2>the things that I'm very convinced on is like we

0:26:21.920 --> 0:26:26.120
<v Speaker 2>got to get this stewardship ownership mindset, like indoctrinated into

0:26:26.119 --> 0:26:31.520
<v Speaker 2>people in as young as we can get them, because

0:26:31.760 --> 0:26:32.040
<v Speaker 2>you know.

0:26:32.280 --> 0:26:38.800
<v Speaker 1>That's some Aldo Leopold stuff man like that being an

0:26:38.880 --> 0:26:42.359
<v Speaker 1>active participant. Yeah, out on the landscape, man like his

0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:47.640
<v Speaker 1>thing of like the you know, the the person wielding

0:26:47.720 --> 0:26:50.600
<v Speaker 1>the person wielding the acts or whatever. You know, like

0:26:50.600 --> 0:26:54.520
<v Speaker 1>like the person out working on the landscape as a conservationist,

0:26:54.560 --> 0:26:54.720
<v Speaker 1>you know.

0:26:55.400 --> 0:26:57.400
<v Speaker 2>And and I would ask.

0:26:57.359 --> 0:26:59.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I love going down and winning. I love

0:26:59.640 --> 0:27:01.879
<v Speaker 1>going down and bidding on auction items at the banquet

0:27:01.960 --> 0:27:03.560
<v Speaker 1>as much as the next guy. But like there's more

0:27:03.600 --> 0:27:03.920
<v Speaker 1>to it.

0:27:06.040 --> 0:27:08.960
<v Speaker 2>There's this thing that I think has gotten us in

0:27:09.000 --> 0:27:12.360
<v Speaker 2>trouble over the years, which is like somebody else will

0:27:12.359 --> 0:27:14.959
<v Speaker 2>do it for us, and that that is part of

0:27:15.040 --> 0:27:18.360
<v Speaker 2>the benefit of a membership organization. Like we have people

0:27:19.000 --> 0:27:22.000
<v Speaker 2>at the state House at the capitol because you have

0:27:22.040 --> 0:27:27.800
<v Speaker 2>a job and you cannot be there, but we work

0:27:27.840 --> 0:27:30.359
<v Speaker 2>our asses off to empower volunteers to be there. Too,

0:27:30.920 --> 0:27:37.720
<v Speaker 2>and get that feeling of empowerment and and ownership of

0:27:37.880 --> 0:27:41.520
<v Speaker 2>I get to represent myself and my community at the

0:27:41.560 --> 0:27:45.920
<v Speaker 2>Fishing Game committee or in front of Congress even, Right.

0:27:48.400 --> 0:27:53.160
<v Speaker 2>But I feel really strongly that we kind of got

0:27:53.200 --> 0:27:55.720
<v Speaker 2>in this like oh, the ranger will come by and

0:27:55.760 --> 0:27:59.159
<v Speaker 2>pick that up type of mindset. The government's going to

0:27:59.200 --> 0:28:02.720
<v Speaker 2>do it for me. And it's like, now we're in

0:28:02.760 --> 0:28:06.879
<v Speaker 2>this crazy political football age where you can take whole

0:28:06.960 --> 0:28:11.240
<v Speaker 2>programs of the government doing it for you and they're

0:28:11.359 --> 0:28:13.679
<v Speaker 2>gone in the blink of an eye, right, and then

0:28:14.119 --> 0:28:18.920
<v Speaker 2>it's like, Okay, well, everybody gonna get so pissed that

0:28:18.960 --> 0:28:23.440
<v Speaker 2>we're gonna be like, okay, sell it. Right. Well, there's

0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:25.639
<v Speaker 2>all sorts of ways that we can try to prevent

0:28:25.720 --> 0:28:33.520
<v Speaker 2>that through working within the political spectrum, but the surefire

0:28:33.560 --> 0:28:36.520
<v Speaker 2>way to prevent that is if everybody just gives a

0:28:36.560 --> 0:28:39.360
<v Speaker 2>shit and it's like, oh my god, this is ours.

0:28:39.480 --> 0:28:45.080
<v Speaker 2>It's a national treasure. We're invested in this, and I

0:28:45.200 --> 0:28:49.400
<v Speaker 2>learned about this in kindergarten in grade school, and you know,

0:28:49.760 --> 0:28:53.640
<v Speaker 2>we are invested as Americans in our natural resources, and

0:28:53.960 --> 0:29:01.800
<v Speaker 2>so much so that they go on beyond the next administration. Right,

0:29:01.840 --> 0:29:06.560
<v Speaker 2>we're talking about these things in perpetuity. And that's part

0:29:06.600 --> 0:29:10.840
<v Speaker 2>of what community building will do, is you go, oh,

0:29:10.960 --> 0:29:16.720
<v Speaker 2>the burden's not just mine, it's Steve Vanelli's and Fill

0:29:16.760 --> 0:29:19.600
<v Speaker 2>the engineer and all these people from across the spectrum,

0:29:20.000 --> 0:29:23.040
<v Speaker 2>like we all are invested in this. It is ours,

0:29:23.240 --> 0:29:28.040
<v Speaker 2>it's our American right, and it's you get away from

0:29:28.040 --> 0:29:32.680
<v Speaker 2>some of this this kind of politics stuff, this choosing

0:29:32.760 --> 0:29:36.080
<v Speaker 2>side stuff, because this stuff is squarely in the middle.

0:29:36.480 --> 0:29:42.880
<v Speaker 1>There's a level of realizing about public lands and public

0:29:42.920 --> 0:29:46.800
<v Speaker 1>land resources and in a personal responsibility to them. There's

0:29:46.840 --> 0:29:52.480
<v Speaker 1>a level of maturity that is required to see those

0:29:52.520 --> 0:29:56.280
<v Speaker 1>places that way. And I say this from my own experience,

0:29:56.840 --> 0:29:59.920
<v Speaker 1>and I've mentioned I've talked about this a bunch before.

0:30:00.160 --> 0:30:03.400
<v Speaker 1>I grew up near what was that Manistee National Forest.

0:30:03.520 --> 0:30:05.680
<v Speaker 1>I think it's got a slightly more complicated name now,

0:30:05.720 --> 0:30:08.840
<v Speaker 1>but it's time the southern end of Manaste National Forest.

0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:13.160
<v Speaker 1>We hunted on it, hunted rabbits on it, trapped it,

0:30:13.440 --> 0:30:16.440
<v Speaker 1>recreated on it, had bb gun wars on it. It

0:30:16.520 --> 0:30:23.840
<v Speaker 1>was like we viewed it and treated it as though

0:30:23.880 --> 0:30:28.040
<v Speaker 1>it fell from the sky. It was just that it

0:30:28.160 --> 0:30:33.120
<v Speaker 1>was there, always had been there, always would be there.

0:30:34.480 --> 0:30:40.160
<v Speaker 1>And there was no sense of personal ownership right, And

0:30:40.200 --> 0:30:42.240
<v Speaker 1>it would be that you'd go to Keger parties and

0:30:42.240 --> 0:30:45.040
<v Speaker 1>the Keger parties, he'd be on the National forest and

0:30:45.080 --> 0:30:48.160
<v Speaker 1>you'd burn tires and burn palettes and you know, tenth

0:30:48.240 --> 0:30:52.160
<v Speaker 1>grade whatever and then walk away because it's just here.

0:30:53.880 --> 0:30:55.480
<v Speaker 1>Someone will get it, do you know what I mean?

0:30:56.040 --> 0:30:58.640
<v Speaker 1>And it was like it took and I don't know

0:30:58.800 --> 0:31:05.959
<v Speaker 1>if I if I had someone telling me the conservation

0:31:06.080 --> 0:31:08.360
<v Speaker 1>history of those spaces and someone telling me what is

0:31:08.400 --> 0:31:11.560
<v Speaker 1>required to maintain these places and the deliberate actions that

0:31:11.600 --> 0:31:14.120
<v Speaker 1>took place to make them here and to make them

0:31:14.160 --> 0:31:17.240
<v Speaker 1>available and make them public, even if you told me that,

0:31:18.600 --> 0:31:20.280
<v Speaker 1>it might not have clicked. That I was a certain

0:31:20.320 --> 0:31:23.320
<v Speaker 1>age anyway for sure, But I think that it would

0:31:23.360 --> 0:31:29.240
<v Speaker 1>have definitely helped if someone had articulated it to me.

0:31:29.920 --> 0:31:32.360
<v Speaker 1>But I don't think it was really even known or

0:31:32.400 --> 0:31:39.120
<v Speaker 1>recognized by our elders. Yeah, like people didn't the turn

0:31:39.240 --> 0:31:44.600
<v Speaker 1>like this is in Michigan. The vocabulary wasn't there, yep,

0:31:45.720 --> 0:31:48.080
<v Speaker 1>do you know what I mean? No one even are

0:31:48.280 --> 0:31:51.320
<v Speaker 1>the grown ups. If I'd have said why is this here?

0:31:52.920 --> 0:31:55.000
<v Speaker 1>No one would have said, oh, it was because of

0:31:55.720 --> 0:31:58.840
<v Speaker 1>this act of Congress or the actions of this president,

0:31:59.200 --> 0:32:01.080
<v Speaker 1>and like here's the all all the deliberate steps that

0:32:01.160 --> 0:32:03.200
<v Speaker 1>took place to make it what it is, And here's

0:32:03.240 --> 0:32:06.840
<v Speaker 1>the management strategy, and here's what does happen and doesn't happen,

0:32:06.840 --> 0:32:09.240
<v Speaker 1>and here's the work that goes into it. It was absent.

0:32:10.640 --> 0:32:15.440
<v Speaker 1>It was absent. I don't know what I'm telling you.

0:32:15.720 --> 0:32:17.600
<v Speaker 1>I'm telling you something you already know. But when you

0:32:17.600 --> 0:32:19.200
<v Speaker 1>go out in the woods, you see where people like

0:32:19.360 --> 0:32:23.160
<v Speaker 1>just decided to like shoot trees down for target practice

0:32:23.200 --> 0:32:25.760
<v Speaker 1>and like trash a place. It is it's because it's

0:32:25.800 --> 0:32:30.240
<v Speaker 1>like they view it like a like a guarantee. Do

0:32:30.240 --> 0:32:30.800
<v Speaker 1>you follow me?

0:32:31.000 --> 0:32:34.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh? And there's that, and there there is just what

0:32:34.200 --> 0:32:40.080
<v Speaker 2>you said, like they don't know yeah, like when we

0:32:40.080 --> 0:32:42.800
<v Speaker 2>were Yeah, I'm having a lot of conversations with with

0:32:42.920 --> 0:32:45.560
<v Speaker 2>landowners here in the state of Montana, like like mid

0:32:45.640 --> 0:32:48.560
<v Speaker 2>level the large landowners in the state of Montana, and

0:32:51.040 --> 0:32:54.120
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of just like for sure, and certain

0:32:54.160 --> 0:32:57.200
<v Speaker 2>things that come out and and it's like the percentage

0:32:57.240 --> 0:33:01.880
<v Speaker 2>of folks who display poor behave you're on private and

0:33:01.920 --> 0:33:05.760
<v Speaker 2>public land. The vast, vast, vast majority just do not

0:33:05.920 --> 0:33:08.640
<v Speaker 2>have a freaking clue at this point, sure, right, they

0:33:08.680 --> 0:33:11.880
<v Speaker 2>have no idea about agriculture. They have no idea about

0:33:13.120 --> 0:33:16.960
<v Speaker 2>a lot of whether it's in the regulation book or not,

0:33:17.480 --> 0:33:21.240
<v Speaker 2>the kind of like the Hunter's Code, the ethics of

0:33:21.920 --> 0:33:24.040
<v Speaker 2>certain things, the stuff that we talk about a lot

0:33:24.120 --> 0:33:26.000
<v Speaker 2>like just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right in

0:33:26.000 --> 0:33:30.680
<v Speaker 2>all cases type of thing. And and then there's a

0:33:30.760 --> 0:33:33.560
<v Speaker 2>percentage that are just doing bad stuff.

0:33:34.080 --> 0:33:37.800
<v Speaker 1>Right. But if I had, man, I feel like I

0:33:37.840 --> 0:33:41.080
<v Speaker 1>feel like when I was a kid, if it had

0:33:41.120 --> 0:33:44.720
<v Speaker 1>been that my old man dragged us out to go

0:33:44.840 --> 0:33:48.959
<v Speaker 1>do a stream project on the national forest, or in

0:33:49.080 --> 0:33:54.160
<v Speaker 1>some way instilled this idea that like, this is sweet

0:33:54.480 --> 0:33:59.160
<v Speaker 1>and it's here because people. It's not here by accident, yep,

0:33:59.480 --> 0:34:03.120
<v Speaker 1>it's here because people work for it and cherish it.

0:34:03.120 --> 0:34:05.400
<v Speaker 1>It might have set me off in a different direction earlier,

0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:07.800
<v Speaker 1>but I think a lot of places it's absent, Man,

0:34:07.920 --> 0:34:10.719
<v Speaker 1>it's absent. So what I'm getting at with that is

0:34:10.719 --> 0:34:14.799
<v Speaker 1>it like that kind of work of just even results,

0:34:14.840 --> 0:34:17.920
<v Speaker 1>like the labor that you're talking about, results in a

0:34:18.000 --> 0:34:21.960
<v Speaker 1>good result or sorry, it yields a good result moving

0:34:21.960 --> 0:34:25.719
<v Speaker 1>a fence and proving migration. But it's more than that

0:34:26.360 --> 0:34:29.960
<v Speaker 1>because it probably is very eye opening for people to

0:34:31.360 --> 0:34:35.799
<v Speaker 1>all of a sudden understand like, oh, I see what

0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:39.160
<v Speaker 1>this is. You know, I understand now what this is. Man,

0:34:39.560 --> 0:34:41.040
<v Speaker 1>This is like a thing we fight for.

0:34:42.880 --> 0:34:48.600
<v Speaker 2>Cash to go that grant money we can it's in

0:34:48.640 --> 0:34:52.600
<v Speaker 2>our power to use that cash to go pay contractors,

0:34:53.760 --> 0:34:55.480
<v Speaker 2>right and just third party of the whole deal.

0:34:55.760 --> 0:34:56.600
<v Speaker 1>Sure, But.

0:34:58.120 --> 0:35:02.160
<v Speaker 2>What's the long term effect of yeah, right, it's like

0:35:02.520 --> 0:35:04.799
<v Speaker 2>I would say, not much in comparison.

0:35:05.000 --> 0:35:07.440
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, to make it, Yeah, to build, to build

0:35:07.480 --> 0:35:09.759
<v Speaker 1>a generation of people who kind of who just are

0:35:09.840 --> 0:35:13.600
<v Speaker 1>invited to see it as a thing that you labor for.

0:35:15.280 --> 0:35:17.360
<v Speaker 1>You know, that's the thing that people labor for and

0:35:17.480 --> 0:35:19.640
<v Speaker 1>is the thing that took deliberate actions to create for.

0:35:19.719 --> 0:35:22.440
<v Speaker 1>You would make it a lot harder to go ship

0:35:22.440 --> 0:35:22.759
<v Speaker 1>it up.

0:35:23.320 --> 0:35:26.520
<v Speaker 2>And I think we've had as a nation as a

0:35:26.560 --> 0:35:32.640
<v Speaker 2>buy and large like an ethos of serious reverence for

0:35:35.200 --> 0:35:39.560
<v Speaker 2>public wildlife for instance, right, Like there's all you can

0:35:39.600 --> 0:35:44.319
<v Speaker 2>research all sorts of articles that were in papers of

0:35:44.400 --> 0:35:49.759
<v Speaker 2>like saw a deer today, right, white tailed deer was

0:35:49.800 --> 0:35:54.120
<v Speaker 2>spotted on so and So's place out by whatever it

0:35:54.239 --> 0:35:55.160
<v Speaker 2>was in the in the.

0:35:55.120 --> 0:35:56.960
<v Speaker 1>Newspaper, like it was noteworthy.

0:35:57.120 --> 0:35:59.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was a it was a really big deal.

0:35:59.800 --> 0:36:05.399
<v Speaker 2>And and so there's this era of extreme scarcity that

0:36:05.719 --> 0:36:10.759
<v Speaker 2>came on the back end of an era of I

0:36:10.760 --> 0:36:18.879
<v Speaker 2>would say, like abundance to greed, which led into oh

0:36:18.920 --> 0:36:21.920
<v Speaker 2>my god, I better get it before it's gone. It's

0:36:21.920 --> 0:36:25.000
<v Speaker 2>going to be gone anyway. And then here comes this

0:36:25.680 --> 0:36:32.680
<v Speaker 2>overwhelming surge of again reverence and what we call conservation today.

0:36:33.320 --> 0:36:36.680
<v Speaker 2>And then I think your dad's era, right, it was like,

0:36:37.239 --> 0:36:39.880
<v Speaker 2>I really don't want to think about anything. By and large,

0:36:40.239 --> 0:36:44.880
<v Speaker 2>I've been through a lot. I'm more out here for

0:36:45.880 --> 0:36:55.000
<v Speaker 2>a level of independence and therapy of some sort. And

0:36:55.080 --> 0:36:59.320
<v Speaker 2>now I can point to, like many many examples across

0:36:59.520 --> 0:37:04.880
<v Speaker 2>Westerns dates, they're seeing a lot of hunter pressure relative

0:37:04.960 --> 0:37:11.359
<v Speaker 2>to the history of those states, or doll Sheep in Alaska,

0:37:12.800 --> 0:37:17.000
<v Speaker 2>where a hunter behavior anecdotally has really changed around that resource.

0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:19.840
<v Speaker 2>Where it used to just be like you'd get laughed

0:37:19.840 --> 0:37:23.200
<v Speaker 2>out of town if you shot a legal ram, but

0:37:23.320 --> 0:37:26.359
<v Speaker 2>now it's like a legal ram is what you're after,

0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:29.200
<v Speaker 2>because by god, if I don't get it now, yep,

0:37:30.080 --> 0:37:36.520
<v Speaker 2>it's going away anyway. Type of mindset. Right, And throughout

0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:42.240
<v Speaker 2>all of these changes in history, our federal workforce peaked

0:37:42.280 --> 0:37:46.880
<v Speaker 2>in the nineteen seventies, and the demands on that public

0:37:46.920 --> 0:37:51.040
<v Speaker 2>ground have only increased, and that workforce hasn't increased along

0:37:51.680 --> 0:37:55.200
<v Speaker 2>with those demands. And now we're dropping way back down.

0:37:55.880 --> 0:37:59.120
<v Speaker 2>And my only point here is that at the beginning

0:37:59.120 --> 0:38:04.520
<v Speaker 2>of the national parks or the forest system, the refuge system,

0:38:05.000 --> 0:38:07.600
<v Speaker 2>there was never a point in time where there were

0:38:07.640 --> 0:38:10.480
<v Speaker 2>so many wardens on the landscape that you were going

0:38:10.520 --> 0:38:11.040
<v Speaker 2>to get caught.

0:38:11.600 --> 0:38:11.880
<v Speaker 1>Yep.

0:38:12.000 --> 0:38:16.360
<v Speaker 2>Right, it was a social contract out there that was like,

0:38:17.760 --> 0:38:19.440
<v Speaker 2>by god, you better respect this stuff.

0:38:19.840 --> 0:38:20.000
<v Speaker 1>Now.

0:38:20.000 --> 0:38:22.799
<v Speaker 2>It was the other users on the landscape that were

0:38:22.880 --> 0:38:28.080
<v Speaker 2>really enforcing these things, plus the idea of the super

0:38:28.080 --> 0:38:31.239
<v Speaker 2>sneaky woods wise game warden that was going to pop

0:38:31.280 --> 0:38:32.440
<v Speaker 2>out of nowhere type of thing.

0:38:32.520 --> 0:38:35.799
<v Speaker 1>Right. You know what's funny about that, man, ih We

0:38:35.920 --> 0:38:37.920
<v Speaker 1>hunted fished all the time. Because I was very little kid.

0:38:37.920 --> 0:38:39.600
<v Speaker 1>I never got checked by a game ward until I

0:38:39.600 --> 0:38:43.440
<v Speaker 1>was twenty years old. Yeah, and believe that twenty years old,

0:38:43.480 --> 0:38:45.239
<v Speaker 1>never laid that, not that I didn't lay eyes on one,

0:38:45.280 --> 0:38:47.400
<v Speaker 1>never got checked by one, You're right. I mean it

0:38:47.480 --> 0:38:54.040
<v Speaker 1>really is like a like speeding. You know, you kind

0:38:54.040 --> 0:38:56.279
<v Speaker 1>of don't speed because you don't want a ticket.

0:38:57.000 --> 0:38:57.239
<v Speaker 2>Yep.

0:38:57.560 --> 0:39:02.160
<v Speaker 1>But in fishing, game law there is a social contract. Right.

0:39:02.480 --> 0:39:04.399
<v Speaker 1>You don't go like, I better get a license because

0:39:04.440 --> 0:39:06.960
<v Speaker 1>I'll get checked today. You're just like you feel this

0:39:07.040 --> 0:39:08.800
<v Speaker 1>moral obligation to get your license.

0:39:09.040 --> 0:39:12.680
<v Speaker 2>Right, The math does not add up on getting checked.

0:39:13.680 --> 0:39:15.480
<v Speaker 1>You do it out of some like because you do

0:39:15.520 --> 0:39:18.920
<v Speaker 1>it because you believe in the system to some degree.

0:39:19.400 --> 0:39:24.399
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I mean we were relatively small conservation group, right,

0:39:24.520 --> 0:39:30.359
<v Speaker 2>But I mean, if that is the goal, it will

0:39:30.400 --> 0:39:33.319
<v Speaker 2>never end. But I would sure like it too, right,

0:39:33.440 --> 0:39:37.799
<v Speaker 2>Like if we had a nationalistic pride in these resources,

0:39:39.160 --> 0:39:43.680
<v Speaker 2>and they are resources. Extraction is part of who we

0:39:43.760 --> 0:39:46.600
<v Speaker 2>are as well. But there's been many times throughout our

0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:50.120
<v Speaker 2>history where we were like, oh my god, we need

0:39:50.160 --> 0:39:53.600
<v Speaker 2>to self regulate, and that self regulation turns into it

0:39:53.719 --> 0:39:59.040
<v Speaker 2>a whole system of regulations because it has just got

0:39:59.080 --> 0:40:04.480
<v Speaker 2>to happen. And what's really interesting right now is like

0:40:04.680 --> 0:40:10.960
<v Speaker 2>I know through conversations, you know, from the White House,

0:40:11.320 --> 0:40:15.560
<v Speaker 2>throughout the Senate and the House, there there is a

0:40:15.680 --> 0:40:20.560
<v Speaker 2>drive right now for deregulation. Yeah, And a lot of

0:40:20.560 --> 0:40:25.680
<v Speaker 2>the people who are pushing for deregulation are not connected

0:40:25.680 --> 0:40:29.800
<v Speaker 2>to these resources at all. There are many degrees of separation, sure,

0:40:31.400 --> 0:40:33.200
<v Speaker 2>but they are running off of well, that's what the

0:40:33.239 --> 0:40:37.640
<v Speaker 2>people want, right, and our job, as is the job

0:40:37.680 --> 0:40:42.280
<v Speaker 2>of a TRCP and many other conservation groups, is to say, like, yeah,

0:40:42.920 --> 0:40:47.200
<v Speaker 2>there's changes that can be made, and there's antiquated things

0:40:47.200 --> 0:40:50.680
<v Speaker 2>out there that don't make sense. But the reason that

0:40:50.719 --> 0:40:54.279
<v Speaker 2>we're having this conversation right now is only because of

0:40:54.320 --> 0:40:56.920
<v Speaker 2>regulation and the adherence to.

0:40:56.800 --> 0:40:59.520
<v Speaker 1>Those Oh that there's anything left to argue about.

0:40:59.680 --> 0:41:02.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, on the hunt and fishing side of things, we

0:41:02.520 --> 0:41:07.799
<v Speaker 2>just wouldn't be having this conversation. Yeah, right, it's I.

0:41:07.800 --> 0:41:17.520
<v Speaker 1>Mean, you're yeah, you're bringing up a huge point. I

0:41:17.600 --> 0:41:20.040
<v Speaker 1>always like to bring up this point that there's not

0:41:20.080 --> 0:41:24.000
<v Speaker 1>a politician alive today that wouldn't like to be favorably

0:41:24.960 --> 0:41:29.440
<v Speaker 1>compared to Theodore Roosevelt. Right, anyone would be like, oh,

0:41:29.440 --> 0:41:32.200
<v Speaker 1>if you're going to favorably compare me to tr please

0:41:32.880 --> 0:41:37.120
<v Speaker 1>I'll accept. Not only that there are politicians that claim

0:41:37.200 --> 0:41:43.120
<v Speaker 1>the mantle of tr that are undeserving of that, but

0:41:43.120 --> 0:41:46.080
<v Speaker 1>they want it so bad they'll just take it for themselves. Yep,

0:41:46.160 --> 0:41:51.400
<v Speaker 1>they'll draw comparisons. It's like, I'm sorry, he was a

0:41:51.440 --> 0:41:57.239
<v Speaker 1>regulation guy. He was a regulation guy because lack of

0:41:57.320 --> 0:42:01.080
<v Speaker 1>regulation had brought us into the dark ages. Of American wildlife.

0:42:01.120 --> 0:42:05.239
<v Speaker 1>And so when we applaud when anyone applauds the North

0:42:05.320 --> 0:42:10.840
<v Speaker 1>American model, when they applaud tr or TR being up

0:42:10.880 --> 0:42:14.440
<v Speaker 1>on Mount Rushmore, what you're applauding is you're applauding someone

0:42:14.560 --> 0:42:17.000
<v Speaker 1>saying we are going to put limits. We are going

0:42:17.040 --> 0:42:21.799
<v Speaker 1>to regulate harvest, we're going to regulate sale of wildlife,

0:42:22.600 --> 0:42:28.360
<v Speaker 1>We're going to regulate timber extraction. It to then land

0:42:28.440 --> 0:42:30.759
<v Speaker 1>in the spot to land and then land in the

0:42:30.880 --> 0:42:36.480
<v Speaker 1>luxury of saying that the American way is to deregulate,

0:42:36.600 --> 0:42:40.360
<v Speaker 1>it's it's mind boggling. Memories are so short.

0:42:40.800 --> 0:42:46.040
<v Speaker 2>Memories are so short. You know, obviously there's an opportunity

0:42:46.080 --> 0:42:50.520
<v Speaker 2>here right now too. But one of the things that

0:42:51.040 --> 0:42:54.200
<v Speaker 2>is certainly part of our mission at BHA is like

0:42:54.280 --> 0:42:58.879
<v Speaker 2>we have got to get if if you love doing

0:42:58.920 --> 0:43:04.120
<v Speaker 2>anything on public lands, or seeing anything on public lands,

0:43:06.080 --> 0:43:09.960
<v Speaker 2>or seeing migratory birds, songbirds, whatever, it is like you

0:43:10.000 --> 0:43:12.160
<v Speaker 2>have got to get active here and you've got to

0:43:12.360 --> 0:43:17.000
<v Speaker 2>start associating with other groups and finding these big common themes.

0:43:17.080 --> 0:43:19.799
<v Speaker 2>Right So, obviously I know you guys have covered like

0:43:19.880 --> 0:43:24.399
<v Speaker 2>Roadless Rule a bunch the Executive order on OHV use

0:43:26.080 --> 0:43:30.919
<v Speaker 2>oil and gas lease sales. H deregulation through the big

0:43:30.960 --> 0:43:39.359
<v Speaker 2>beautiful bill list really does go on and on. That

0:43:39.560 --> 0:43:44.280
<v Speaker 2>is the theme that is happening here is broad deregulation,

0:43:45.360 --> 0:43:49.520
<v Speaker 2>because that's what the American people want, right, and we

0:43:49.560 --> 0:43:52.319
<v Speaker 2>have got to be like wait, wait, not that and

0:43:52.400 --> 0:43:55.520
<v Speaker 2>not that, and this could can be done better.

0:43:57.120 --> 0:44:00.880
<v Speaker 1>And but there's a model of there's a model of

0:44:01.160 --> 0:44:07.040
<v Speaker 1>pointing to there's sort of a rhetorical strategy where you

0:44:07.160 --> 0:44:11.640
<v Speaker 1>go find examples of regulations that are antiquated, or regulations

0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:14.520
<v Speaker 1>that don't work, or regulations that are just goofy, and

0:44:14.560 --> 0:44:19.239
<v Speaker 1>maybe you always have been goofy right or excessive, and

0:44:19.280 --> 0:44:23.200
<v Speaker 1>you go, because of that, let's just ditch the whole thing.

0:44:23.520 --> 0:44:23.759
<v Speaker 2>Yep.

0:44:24.360 --> 0:44:28.640
<v Speaker 1>You know. It's a point I bring up. Like a

0:44:28.719 --> 0:44:31.799
<v Speaker 1>way I think about it is is if you look,

0:44:32.040 --> 0:44:37.879
<v Speaker 1>if you go back to COVID COVID restrictions, you could

0:44:37.920 --> 0:44:39.960
<v Speaker 1>look and say and I saw people do it. I

0:44:40.000 --> 0:44:43.560
<v Speaker 1>did it. The minute someone's like, man, you shouldn't you

0:44:43.680 --> 0:44:46.080
<v Speaker 1>need to be scared of the boxes that were delivered

0:44:47.920 --> 0:44:50.239
<v Speaker 1>in your yard, like leave them out there for a

0:44:50.280 --> 0:44:52.200
<v Speaker 1>couple of days, you know, And then you hear someone

0:44:52.280 --> 0:44:55.239
<v Speaker 1>say like, well that that's that's ridiculous, and you're like

0:44:55.239 --> 0:44:58.200
<v Speaker 1>you get fixated on how dumb that was, and then

0:44:58.239 --> 0:45:00.239
<v Speaker 1>you get to where like, I'm not listening to any

0:45:00.239 --> 0:45:02.359
<v Speaker 1>of this stuff, right, you know what I mean?

0:45:02.400 --> 0:45:03.759
<v Speaker 2>Like remember the box thing?

0:45:03.880 --> 0:45:06.399
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like the box thing there far off, I'm done

0:45:06.520 --> 0:45:09.440
<v Speaker 1>washing my hands. The box thing was crazy. That's like

0:45:09.480 --> 0:45:12.440
<v Speaker 1>a human way where you you find you sort of

0:45:12.480 --> 0:45:16.840
<v Speaker 1>see this category of things. One of those things seems crazy,

0:45:17.880 --> 0:45:20.400
<v Speaker 1>and instead of isolating out the crazy one, you get

0:45:20.440 --> 0:45:23.480
<v Speaker 1>where you're just done. Oh yeah, you're done. You see

0:45:23.520 --> 0:45:26.280
<v Speaker 1>it in friendships, you have a great friendship with someone

0:45:26.320 --> 0:45:28.480
<v Speaker 1>and they do a thing a couple of times. Eventually

0:45:28.520 --> 0:45:31.640
<v Speaker 1>you're just like, I know, I know he's got some

0:45:31.719 --> 0:45:34.600
<v Speaker 1>nice things. I'm done. Yep. You know I think that

0:45:34.640 --> 0:45:38.680
<v Speaker 1>there is We hit these in like regulatory stuff where

0:45:38.680 --> 0:45:44.080
<v Speaker 1>you'll hear about a crazy thing and then people get like, ah, yeah, absolutely,

0:45:44.160 --> 0:45:45.840
<v Speaker 1>we'll just go back to the old way, you know,

0:45:46.480 --> 0:45:48.200
<v Speaker 1>and you kind of go like you want to be like, well,

0:45:49.000 --> 0:45:51.680
<v Speaker 1>let's let's let's address the real problems, but let's keep

0:45:51.719 --> 0:45:54.920
<v Speaker 1>our eyes on what the goal is here, yep, Like,

0:45:54.920 --> 0:45:57.840
<v Speaker 1>like we agree that we want clean air and clean

0:45:57.920 --> 0:46:02.000
<v Speaker 1>water and healthy wildlife population, Like we agree on that,

0:46:02.320 --> 0:46:04.560
<v Speaker 1>and sure, let's talk about these things that are off,

0:46:05.440 --> 0:46:08.480
<v Speaker 1>but we don't. We just we jump to a radical

0:46:09.440 --> 0:46:12.360
<v Speaker 1>we jump to a radical thing. Absolutely there's some government

0:46:12.360 --> 0:46:14.799
<v Speaker 1>waste kill the whole thing, you know.

0:46:15.520 --> 0:46:21.759
<v Speaker 2>Uh, insanely diverse landscape that we have, right, like blessed

0:46:21.800 --> 0:46:27.359
<v Speaker 2>as an American with unbelievable opportunities that it can be

0:46:27.440 --> 0:46:31.960
<v Speaker 2>so wildly different from an edge of one state to

0:46:32.040 --> 0:46:35.000
<v Speaker 2>another state, or the end of a watershed to the

0:46:35.000 --> 0:46:39.440
<v Speaker 2>top end of a watershed. The people on the ground

0:46:39.640 --> 0:46:45.520
<v Speaker 2>understand that you can't like blanket manage all of this stuff,

0:46:46.360 --> 0:46:50.360
<v Speaker 2>Like it is complicated and it does take time, and

0:46:50.440 --> 0:46:55.879
<v Speaker 2>it takes real on the ground knowledge to inform how

0:46:55.920 --> 0:47:03.040
<v Speaker 2>that stuff doesn't needs to be managed and that complicated,

0:47:05.520 --> 0:47:09.759
<v Speaker 2>you know, time consuming approach to something that we will

0:47:09.760 --> 0:47:13.640
<v Speaker 2>never be able to recreate ever gets wrapped up in

0:47:13.719 --> 0:47:15.840
<v Speaker 2>this like, well'll see the government can't do anything.

0:47:15.640 --> 0:47:22.760
<v Speaker 1>Right, yeah, right, what this might be hard to answer.

0:47:23.880 --> 0:47:26.600
<v Speaker 1>What when you're talking about like you're you're talking about

0:47:26.680 --> 0:47:30.120
<v Speaker 1>doing work on BLM land, right, So you're coming in

0:47:30.160 --> 0:47:32.280
<v Speaker 1>and doing like you're you're coming in on there's federal

0:47:32.320 --> 0:47:36.400
<v Speaker 1>property and you're coming in and doing work on federal property,

0:47:36.440 --> 0:47:38.520
<v Speaker 1>So you have private people coming in and doing work

0:47:38.520 --> 0:47:41.680
<v Speaker 1>on federal property, or you could have private people a

0:47:41.760 --> 0:47:46.560
<v Speaker 1>private organization coming in and helping clear trails on federal land.

0:47:48.480 --> 0:47:52.080
<v Speaker 1>So there's jobs that need to be done on public

0:47:52.160 --> 0:47:56.640
<v Speaker 1>lands that aren't getting done, aren't getting done all the way,

0:47:56.800 --> 0:47:58.719
<v Speaker 1>and so there's a need for private people to come

0:47:58.760 --> 0:48:02.359
<v Speaker 1>in and do it. Have you seen in your time

0:48:02.400 --> 0:48:04.680
<v Speaker 1>and your role and you've been involved in BHA for

0:48:04.680 --> 0:48:07.440
<v Speaker 1>a very long time as a board member, but so

0:48:07.719 --> 0:48:10.520
<v Speaker 1>in your time there, particularly in your time in the

0:48:10.600 --> 0:48:18.280
<v Speaker 1>leadership position, have you seen like literal situations where doge

0:48:18.400 --> 0:48:26.840
<v Speaker 1>cuts have left things undone that then that then private

0:48:26.920 --> 0:48:29.440
<v Speaker 1>organizations have found a way to go in and get

0:48:29.800 --> 0:48:32.080
<v Speaker 1>taken care of. Or is it not or is it

0:48:32.160 --> 0:48:32.920
<v Speaker 1>not that literal?

0:48:35.480 --> 0:48:40.600
<v Speaker 2>There's certain like staffing is a huge issue because like

0:48:41.840 --> 0:48:45.799
<v Speaker 2>it's not and like there was a time where there

0:48:45.960 --> 0:48:48.800
<v Speaker 2>just literally wasn't a person in the office who could

0:48:49.360 --> 0:48:55.880
<v Speaker 2>physically handle the check, couldn't write the check, sign it,

0:48:56.239 --> 0:49:00.960
<v Speaker 2>put it in a mailbox. Yeah, you just that has

0:49:01.000 --> 0:49:05.800
<v Speaker 2>to get done somehow, and there wasn't a backup mechanism

0:49:05.880 --> 0:49:12.960
<v Speaker 2>for that. When we talk about inventorying, a a fence

0:49:13.000 --> 0:49:18.319
<v Speaker 2>line for example. You know there there's a lot of

0:49:18.360 --> 0:49:21.440
<v Speaker 2>communication on the ground with with the people on the ground,

0:49:21.480 --> 0:49:26.799
<v Speaker 2>would be a rangeland ecologist or you know on the

0:49:26.800 --> 0:49:32.600
<v Speaker 2>forest service side, Uh, any any number of people, right,

0:49:34.960 --> 0:49:37.480
<v Speaker 2>h they get stretched in on a on a bunch

0:49:37.520 --> 0:49:41.720
<v Speaker 2>of things because they're not going out there to address

0:49:41.800 --> 0:49:44.160
<v Speaker 2>problem A, and they run across problem B and they

0:49:44.200 --> 0:49:51.360
<v Speaker 2>just ignore it. So there's gaps that I think the

0:49:51.680 --> 0:49:57.560
<v Speaker 2>private sector is is very capable of filling in. But

0:49:57.920 --> 0:50:03.600
<v Speaker 2>oftentimes it's that historical knowledge on a landscape. Sure, that

0:50:03.800 --> 0:50:07.520
<v Speaker 2>is the real conduit to making that private sector work

0:50:08.520 --> 0:50:09.640
<v Speaker 2>anywhere near efficient.

0:50:09.719 --> 0:50:11.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Like you guys can't just roll up in the

0:50:11.320 --> 0:50:13.680
<v Speaker 1>truck and decide what fence you want to start working on.

0:50:14.400 --> 0:50:16.680
<v Speaker 1>I mean it's gotta go. Yeah, it's got to go.

0:50:16.760 --> 0:50:18.080
<v Speaker 2>You're coming in on what road?

0:50:18.320 --> 0:50:20.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Yeah, I'll see that.

0:50:20.719 --> 0:50:23.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Well you need to drive three hundred miles around

0:50:23.320 --> 0:50:25.760
<v Speaker 2>and come in on this road and it'll be faster

0:50:26.400 --> 0:50:29.160
<v Speaker 2>and way less wear and tear on your equipment than

0:50:29.320 --> 0:50:32.600
<v Speaker 2>trying to come in on the road that's fifty miles long.

0:50:32.719 --> 0:50:36.160
<v Speaker 1>So you find places where like just those there's gaps

0:50:36.200 --> 0:50:40.759
<v Speaker 1>and those pieces yep, like like pass through individuals aren't.

0:50:40.480 --> 0:50:43.720
<v Speaker 2>There yep, yep. For sure, Yeah, for sure.

0:50:45.480 --> 0:50:48.719
<v Speaker 1>Can you think of anything from the last let's go

0:50:48.800 --> 0:50:52.160
<v Speaker 1>back to the beginning of the current administration. What are

0:50:52.239 --> 0:50:57.200
<v Speaker 1>things that happen in like Trump too, and a lot

0:50:57.239 --> 0:50:59.600
<v Speaker 1>of things get I want to preface that a little bit.

0:50:59.680 --> 0:51:02.200
<v Speaker 1>A lot of things get plugged to like the administration

0:51:02.440 --> 0:51:05.560
<v Speaker 1>that are probably well outside of the White the view

0:51:05.600 --> 0:51:09.120
<v Speaker 1>of the White House, right, Like you'll hear like you

0:51:09.160 --> 0:51:12.239
<v Speaker 1>know Trump is doing X or the administration is doing X.

0:51:12.400 --> 0:51:16.640
<v Speaker 1>You'd be like, yes, the administration, but many layers removed

0:51:16.640 --> 0:51:18.680
<v Speaker 1>from the White House, meaning in the White House, are

0:51:18.719 --> 0:51:23.160
<v Speaker 1>probably not aware of this is coming from downstream? Right,

0:51:24.200 --> 0:51:28.000
<v Speaker 1>But can you think of many cases or any cases

0:51:28.040 --> 0:51:30.960
<v Speaker 1>of things that have come out in the last year

0:51:31.000 --> 0:51:38.319
<v Speaker 1>and a half that that you can applaud, like, like,

0:51:38.360 --> 0:51:41.680
<v Speaker 1>what are you looking at that excites you?

0:51:42.840 --> 0:51:44.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean I and I'm not.

0:51:44.920 --> 0:51:47.520
<v Speaker 1>Saying you have to provide something because I see I've

0:51:47.600 --> 0:51:48.280
<v Speaker 1>seen some.

0:51:48.239 --> 0:51:52.880
<v Speaker 2>Things, oh for sure, But well I do I want many.

0:51:52.800 --> 0:51:55.320
<v Speaker 1>Things to excite me as I've seen to depress me that.

0:51:56.520 --> 0:51:58.640
<v Speaker 2>As you know, right, Like, if you're you're in a

0:51:58.719 --> 0:52:01.160
<v Speaker 2>leadership position, you have a lot of people providing you

0:52:01.200 --> 0:52:09.360
<v Speaker 2>with information and and some of those people may or

0:52:09.400 --> 0:52:14.600
<v Speaker 2>may not have agendas, but they do want typically to

0:52:16.120 --> 0:52:19.399
<v Speaker 2>make things go well, and they're probably outsourcing information too.

0:52:19.800 --> 0:52:23.799
<v Speaker 2>And we've come across many things here recently where we've

0:52:23.840 --> 0:52:30.160
<v Speaker 2>heard directly from high level officials, conversations like, well, we

0:52:30.160 --> 0:52:33.360
<v Speaker 2>were told that everybody wanted this, and you're telling me

0:52:33.400 --> 0:52:35.759
<v Speaker 2>that that's not true. And why are we getting so

0:52:35.840 --> 0:52:39.360
<v Speaker 2>much negative feedback on this thing that was overwhelmingly positive

0:52:39.920 --> 0:52:41.759
<v Speaker 2>And you have the feeling in the back of your

0:52:41.760 --> 0:52:45.319
<v Speaker 2>mind of like, oh, you were misinformed.

0:52:46.080 --> 0:52:49.480
<v Speaker 1>Give me an example. So let me I don't want

0:52:49.480 --> 0:52:52.319
<v Speaker 1>to leave you. I don't want to leave you trying

0:52:52.320 --> 0:52:54.840
<v Speaker 1>to struggle to understand my intents. Let me let me

0:52:54.880 --> 0:53:03.200
<v Speaker 1>ask it a little bit differently our our organization, like

0:53:03.200 --> 0:53:06.360
<v Speaker 1>like at Mediator, we've talked a lot about We covered

0:53:06.400 --> 0:53:08.680
<v Speaker 1>in Trump won, we covered a little bit during the

0:53:08.719 --> 0:53:11.640
<v Speaker 1>Biden administration. We covered again in Trump two of the

0:53:11.680 --> 0:53:14.600
<v Speaker 1>move and Trump two being the biggest move in this

0:53:14.719 --> 0:53:21.640
<v Speaker 1>direction was like freeing up hunting and fishing opportunities, refuges,

0:53:21.800 --> 0:53:24.719
<v Speaker 1>refuges something so yeah. In some areas administered by the

0:53:24.800 --> 0:53:31.920
<v Speaker 1>National Parks Service and we've explained it, applauded it, defended

0:53:31.920 --> 0:53:35.879
<v Speaker 1>the rationale. Okay, the today, someone sends me an op

0:53:36.080 --> 0:53:38.840
<v Speaker 1>ed of someone saying, like a lot of media organizations,

0:53:38.840 --> 0:53:41.720
<v Speaker 1>he doesn't name names, he's like a lot of media organizations,

0:53:42.040 --> 0:53:46.280
<v Speaker 1>a lot of wildlife organizations, a lot of conservation organizations,

0:53:46.280 --> 0:53:53.279
<v Speaker 1>refuse to acknowledge any of the positives, you know. And

0:53:54.800 --> 0:53:58.640
<v Speaker 1>I looked at that, and I'm like, man, that doesn't

0:53:58.680 --> 0:54:02.480
<v Speaker 1>ring true to me. Yeah, I've read about this refuge

0:54:02.520 --> 0:54:07.920
<v Speaker 1>system all over They expanded hunting and fishing access on

0:54:08.000 --> 0:54:12.360
<v Speaker 1>refuge systems. The New York Times attacked it unfairly, and

0:54:12.440 --> 0:54:14.640
<v Speaker 1>I addressed why I thought it was an unfair attack.

0:54:16.160 --> 0:54:18.960
<v Speaker 1>We applauded it when it happened the first time, applauded it.

0:54:19.000 --> 0:54:23.000
<v Speaker 1>Now like no one's ignoring this, But there has been

0:54:23.120 --> 0:54:31.920
<v Speaker 1>a in my mind, there's been an undeniable feeling of it,

0:54:32.360 --> 0:54:38.680
<v Speaker 1>of of cascading bad news. And so I just want

0:54:38.680 --> 0:54:40.319
<v Speaker 1>to I want to ask you from like a your

0:54:40.440 --> 0:54:45.600
<v Speaker 1>position to not be guilty of what the op ed

0:54:45.719 --> 0:54:49.120
<v Speaker 1>was saying, Like from your position, Yeah, what have you

0:54:49.120 --> 0:54:52.359
<v Speaker 1>seen this? Man? Like, what are you seeing lately at

0:54:52.360 --> 0:54:56.359
<v Speaker 1>the federal level that you're applauding or that you're liking, you.

0:54:56.320 --> 0:54:59.719
<v Speaker 2>Know, I mean several executive orders h and I brought

0:54:59.760 --> 0:55:02.839
<v Speaker 2>up the HB one. It's a good example. It's having

0:55:02.880 --> 0:55:07.760
<v Speaker 2>negative consequences right now, unfortunately. But many of the executive

0:55:07.840 --> 0:55:12.600
<v Speaker 2>orders are big statements that do at the end say

0:55:12.800 --> 0:55:16.560
<v Speaker 2>like unless there's currently a travel management plan.

0:55:16.400 --> 0:55:19.200
<v Speaker 1>In place, yeah right, yep, Like I see, you know,

0:55:19.440 --> 0:55:20.880
<v Speaker 1>I was put in the idea. I was putting like this,

0:55:21.040 --> 0:55:23.960
<v Speaker 1>like if I said, let's say I said to my kids,

0:55:23.960 --> 0:55:28.719
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, don't even ask me. Don't even ask me

0:55:28.920 --> 0:55:30.759
<v Speaker 1>if you can spend the night at your friend's house.

0:55:31.160 --> 0:55:34.360
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to hear any requests about that. It's done.

0:55:34.520 --> 0:55:38.400
<v Speaker 1>And then later I say, I don't know what the

0:55:38.440 --> 0:55:41.360
<v Speaker 1>answer will be on an individual basis, but I'm okay

0:55:41.400 --> 0:55:44.960
<v Speaker 1>to field requests now, but I don't know what I'll say.

0:55:45.440 --> 0:55:47.799
<v Speaker 1>You can at least bring the request to me. So

0:55:47.880 --> 0:55:51.319
<v Speaker 1>some of these things have this like this, and it

0:55:51.360 --> 0:55:55.200
<v Speaker 1>gets put in the press like oh, it's all open now,

0:55:55.280 --> 0:55:58.279
<v Speaker 1>you can drive anywhere you want now, yep, you know,

0:55:58.520 --> 0:55:59.880
<v Speaker 1>But you look at me, like if you read it,

0:56:00.080 --> 0:56:04.080
<v Speaker 1>the fine print just says we'll see case by case

0:56:04.120 --> 0:56:06.720
<v Speaker 1>basis right, but something shifts.

0:56:06.880 --> 0:56:09.400
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, and when it comes time to have a

0:56:09.400 --> 0:56:12.439
<v Speaker 2>new travel management plan, it's going to be these things

0:56:12.440 --> 0:56:15.480
<v Speaker 2>are going to be considered. Right, But for the time being,

0:56:16.480 --> 0:56:19.239
<v Speaker 2>if there's a travel management plan in place, that is

0:56:19.280 --> 0:56:23.440
<v Speaker 2>the law. Yeah and yeah, A lot of a lot

0:56:23.880 --> 0:56:30.360
<v Speaker 2>of media, because of this need want for hyperbole, have

0:56:30.640 --> 0:56:35.520
<v Speaker 2>really really put a ding on our public lands because

0:56:35.520 --> 0:56:38.600
<v Speaker 2>they're saying, oh, all this stuff's open now, and that

0:56:38.680 --> 0:56:42.480
<v Speaker 2>is not the case. And I can go into a

0:56:42.480 --> 0:56:44.439
<v Speaker 2>bunch of work that we're doing right now to try

0:56:44.480 --> 0:56:47.680
<v Speaker 2>to help some positive messaging around that.

0:56:47.800 --> 0:56:51.120
<v Speaker 1>So what really is in the what really is everybody

0:56:51.160 --> 0:56:53.960
<v Speaker 1>saw the headlines or not everybody, but there's a lot

0:56:53.960 --> 0:56:58.760
<v Speaker 1>of headlines like help me, help me describe the general

0:56:58.800 --> 0:57:02.240
<v Speaker 1>headline off road use? Like what would be the general

0:57:02.280 --> 0:57:03.960
<v Speaker 1>headline you saw about off road use?

0:57:04.080 --> 0:57:08.040
<v Speaker 2>Oh, the general it would be like Trump rolls back

0:57:08.920 --> 0:57:16.560
<v Speaker 2>bedrock travel management plans. It opens the paves the way

0:57:17.480 --> 0:57:23.640
<v Speaker 2>for off road use would probably be the thing.

0:57:23.760 --> 0:57:28.200
<v Speaker 1>Right, But what is happening there? Let's take this example,

0:57:28.240 --> 0:57:31.120
<v Speaker 1>like what is happening there? Well, so when I saw it,

0:57:31.200 --> 0:57:33.400
<v Speaker 1>I didn't get a I didn't get a feeling without

0:57:33.440 --> 0:57:38.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, my knee jerk reaction must be like, oh, yep, yep,

0:57:38.840 --> 0:57:40.040
<v Speaker 1>I don't like the sounds of that.

0:57:42.080 --> 0:57:47.760
<v Speaker 2>First of all, off road on BLM and Forest Service

0:57:47.840 --> 0:57:53.560
<v Speaker 2>Land is kind of a misnomer because you can go

0:57:53.920 --> 0:57:58.840
<v Speaker 2>off road on these designated roads and trails, not cross

0:57:58.880 --> 0:57:59.640
<v Speaker 2>country travel.

0:57:59.680 --> 0:58:03.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. When I say off road, they mean off of pavement,

0:58:04.080 --> 0:58:06.560
<v Speaker 1>off of designated highways, off of county roads.

0:58:06.640 --> 0:58:09.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, big thoroughfare er, main artery type of thing. And

0:58:10.000 --> 0:58:16.480
<v Speaker 2>then that's broken into single track motorized. Of course, there's

0:58:17.520 --> 0:58:26.040
<v Speaker 2>single track non motorized wilderness, no bicycles, right, And then

0:58:26.200 --> 0:58:32.160
<v Speaker 2>you have your fifty inch or less width restriction four

0:58:32.200 --> 0:58:37.760
<v Speaker 2>wheel and then you have your your full size like

0:58:37.880 --> 0:58:42.280
<v Speaker 2>jeep trail, high clearance vehicle roads, and that's like that's

0:58:42.320 --> 0:58:46.200
<v Speaker 2>where you do your off roading. And then there's certain

0:58:46.240 --> 0:58:53.240
<v Speaker 2>areas where there is a designated spot for ripping around

0:58:53.280 --> 0:58:58.160
<v Speaker 2>wherever you want, and it is visually the place to

0:58:58.200 --> 0:58:59.960
<v Speaker 2>do that. Hard to mistake it for.

0:59:00.640 --> 0:59:02.440
<v Speaker 1>On some big sand dune or something.

0:59:02.640 --> 0:59:08.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And then so what the OHV order did was

0:59:08.480 --> 0:59:13.480
<v Speaker 2>it said this Nixon era executive order. And then I

0:59:13.520 --> 0:59:16.760
<v Speaker 2>want to say it's Carter, I'm a little sleep deprived, right,

0:59:16.800 --> 0:59:23.160
<v Speaker 2>now Carter Era OHV executive order, we're going to rescind

0:59:23.200 --> 0:59:28.320
<v Speaker 2>those they were you know, I would say like very

0:59:28.360 --> 0:59:32.680
<v Speaker 2>forward thinking as far as like, hey, as this user

0:59:32.720 --> 0:59:37.520
<v Speaker 2>group and technology expands, the impacts that we're seeing today

0:59:37.560 --> 0:59:42.920
<v Speaker 2>are only going to be exacerbated on the landscape. We

0:59:43.080 --> 0:59:46.439
<v Speaker 2>have a lot of industry out and this is something

0:59:46.480 --> 0:59:48.920
<v Speaker 2>that gets lost a lot, right, is we have a

0:59:48.920 --> 0:59:54.480
<v Speaker 2>lot of extractive use industry that's out there, and it

0:59:54.520 --> 0:59:57.520
<v Speaker 2>will be a danger to individuals and an impediment to

0:59:57.640 --> 1:00:02.040
<v Speaker 2>those industries if people are writing where every hell and gone,

1:00:03.160 --> 1:00:07.240
<v Speaker 2>and it will impact the return that we have on

1:00:07.280 --> 1:00:12.880
<v Speaker 2>our growing for us, for the timber industry, and it's

1:00:12.920 --> 1:00:18.560
<v Speaker 2>it's a bad look. It causes erosion, which impacts our

1:00:18.640 --> 1:00:23.280
<v Speaker 2>road systems and our culverts and our spawning habitats and

1:00:23.320 --> 1:00:28.000
<v Speaker 2>our streams and you know the typical cascading effects. Right.

1:00:30.080 --> 1:00:34.040
<v Speaker 2>And and then the thing that most people saw was

1:00:35.680 --> 1:00:41.680
<v Speaker 2>the switch from a de facto closed unless posted open

1:00:44.240 --> 1:00:49.000
<v Speaker 2>to open and less posted closed. And the way that

1:00:49.000 --> 1:00:54.920
<v Speaker 2>that works is every district has m v U M,

1:00:55.040 --> 1:00:57.840
<v Speaker 2>a motor vehicle use map, which I always thought was

1:00:57.840 --> 1:01:00.920
<v Speaker 2>a really sweet idea. It's you know, you can go

1:01:01.400 --> 1:01:04.160
<v Speaker 2>get an armload of them if you want, and they're

1:01:04.160 --> 1:01:08.320
<v Speaker 2>typically at gas stations that are selling off road gas

1:01:08.400 --> 1:01:12.240
<v Speaker 2>and they're at your ranger district offices and stuff like that.

1:01:12.560 --> 1:01:15.640
<v Speaker 2>But you have that map in your possession. It shows

1:01:15.640 --> 1:01:19.480
<v Speaker 2>the exactly what's open to what, and then it's supposed

1:01:19.480 --> 1:01:21.520
<v Speaker 2>to work. Is kind of like an affidavit in your

1:01:21.560 --> 1:01:25.400
<v Speaker 2>pocket too, to be like, oh, I know the rules

1:01:28.000 --> 1:01:31.880
<v Speaker 2>and then you know because of like years and years

1:01:31.880 --> 1:01:36.080
<v Speaker 2>and years of litigation, the way those things are posted

1:01:36.160 --> 1:01:38.920
<v Speaker 2>and signed. They all have open dates and closed dates,

1:01:39.640 --> 1:01:43.160
<v Speaker 2>and if you want to color outside the lines on

1:01:43.200 --> 1:01:47.160
<v Speaker 2>those for trail condition closures or whatever, if it's not

1:01:47.280 --> 1:01:49.920
<v Speaker 2>within the dates, you're not going to get ticketed. You

1:01:50.000 --> 1:01:55.240
<v Speaker 2>might get a talking to. But that's how that whole

1:01:55.280 --> 1:02:00.320
<v Speaker 2>system works. And the implication of those headlines being like,

1:02:00.360 --> 1:02:04.680
<v Speaker 2>oh my god, it's all doom and gloom, armygeddon, it's

1:02:04.680 --> 1:02:08.440
<v Speaker 2>all over a lot of people were like, oh okay,

1:02:09.760 --> 1:02:10.840
<v Speaker 2>and more.

1:02:12.480 --> 1:02:15.040
<v Speaker 1>What do you mean when you say okay? What do

1:02:15.040 --> 1:02:15.320
<v Speaker 1>you mean?

1:02:15.560 --> 1:02:17.760
<v Speaker 2>So we've just get been getting a lot of reports

1:02:18.360 --> 1:02:24.640
<v Speaker 2>from districts all across North America saying like we're seeing

1:02:24.760 --> 1:02:29.600
<v Speaker 2>rampant cross country travel, motorized cross country travel and the

1:02:29.600 --> 1:02:36.560
<v Speaker 2>destruction of signs and gates, and as well as the

1:02:36.600 --> 1:02:44.080
<v Speaker 2>promotion of essentially fake news like that everything's open now

1:02:44.600 --> 1:02:49.080
<v Speaker 2>versus hey. Travel management plans right responsibly.

1:02:49.120 --> 1:02:54.160
<v Speaker 1>Right, like any changes that actually occur are forthcoming as

1:02:54.200 --> 1:02:57.560
<v Speaker 1>they consider rule changes. But it wasn't something that all

1:02:57.600 --> 1:03:00.920
<v Speaker 1>of a sudden announced from now on, unless if it

1:03:00.920 --> 1:03:02.840
<v Speaker 1>doesn't say you can't go there, you can go wherever

1:03:02.880 --> 1:03:03.400
<v Speaker 1>you want.

1:03:03.440 --> 1:03:08.640
<v Speaker 2>Yep, yep, And you know there's all sorts of implications there.

1:03:09.120 --> 1:03:12.120
<v Speaker 2>But to go back to like the broader scale of management,

1:03:12.920 --> 1:03:17.280
<v Speaker 2>when you kind of get into the nuances of all

1:03:17.320 --> 1:03:21.720
<v Speaker 2>the tools in the toolbox of management, where you get

1:03:21.760 --> 1:03:24.280
<v Speaker 2>really ticked. That is like, well, why is this for

1:03:24.400 --> 1:03:28.240
<v Speaker 2>a service road? Buttery smooth and at the end of it,

1:03:28.920 --> 1:03:34.920
<v Speaker 2>there's a big maintained campground and nice toilets and potable

1:03:34.960 --> 1:03:40.520
<v Speaker 2>water or you know, frost free taps that you can

1:03:41.840 --> 1:03:45.040
<v Speaker 2>get instant water at your campsite. While as this camp

1:03:45.280 --> 1:03:48.880
<v Speaker 2>this road is full of potholes, you got to go

1:03:49.000 --> 1:03:52.040
<v Speaker 2>really slow, especially if you're towing a camper. And then

1:03:52.080 --> 1:03:56.000
<v Speaker 2>there's primitive sites at the end of that, and it's like, well,

1:03:56.040 --> 1:03:58.000
<v Speaker 2>they don't know what they're doing. Well, a lot of

1:03:58.000 --> 1:04:03.600
<v Speaker 2>times your travel management plan, your maintenance plan, those are

1:04:03.640 --> 1:04:08.920
<v Speaker 2>always to disperse the amount of pressure that you get

1:04:09.080 --> 1:04:13.840
<v Speaker 2>within your forest or BLM area. Right, So you're like, yep,

1:04:14.320 --> 1:04:20.840
<v Speaker 2>this one is you know, way more conducive to bringing

1:04:20.880 --> 1:04:25.080
<v Speaker 2>in big pump trucks to hit the pit toilets and

1:04:25.760 --> 1:04:30.560
<v Speaker 2>maintaining at a larger scale, and it's very family friendly.

1:04:31.640 --> 1:04:35.400
<v Speaker 2>We're going to divert a lot of people here. This

1:04:35.680 --> 1:04:40.160
<v Speaker 2>road over here is more of a pain in the butt.

1:04:40.280 --> 1:04:44.040
<v Speaker 2>The site's more remote, it's actually more sensitive to so

1:04:44.240 --> 1:04:49.439
<v Speaker 2>we actually want a little less human pressure up there.

1:04:49.960 --> 1:04:52.240
<v Speaker 2>So that is the reason that the road's a pain

1:04:52.280 --> 1:04:53.240
<v Speaker 2>in the ass.

1:04:54.360 --> 1:04:56.600
<v Speaker 1>Like no one's trying to make it a high traffic

1:04:56.640 --> 1:04:57.760
<v Speaker 1>area exactly.

1:04:58.120 --> 1:05:03.240
<v Speaker 2>And we also don't have the staff to maintain that

1:05:03.280 --> 1:05:07.920
<v Speaker 2>one on every single day basis like we do down here,

1:05:08.280 --> 1:05:12.280
<v Speaker 2>which is why we're diverting more traffic down here type

1:05:12.320 --> 1:05:12.560
<v Speaker 2>of thing.

1:05:12.800 --> 1:05:16.560
<v Speaker 1>What do you think what on the on that OHV

1:05:16.720 --> 1:05:20.960
<v Speaker 1>on the off road rule change or paving the way

1:05:21.040 --> 1:05:25.880
<v Speaker 1>for rule changes going forward, What is the real deep

1:05:25.960 --> 1:05:28.920
<v Speaker 1>down motivating factor? Like what is someone after?

1:05:32.320 --> 1:05:37.600
<v Speaker 2>I think it is another case of just like the

1:05:37.640 --> 1:05:42.000
<v Speaker 2>pendulum swinging really hard I think roadless rule is also

1:05:42.040 --> 1:05:46.360
<v Speaker 2>a case of the pendulum swinging really hard where and

1:05:46.720 --> 1:05:53.000
<v Speaker 2>we've gotten direct feedback as to I just want to say, like,

1:05:53.040 --> 1:05:56.840
<v Speaker 2>our communication at BHA has changed a lot, and I'm

1:05:57.840 --> 1:06:01.480
<v Speaker 2>adamant that we take an issue, we break it down

1:06:01.480 --> 1:06:05.600
<v Speaker 2>in a non partisan fashion, take it or leave it.

1:06:05.600 --> 1:06:08.720
<v Speaker 2>It is just what's happening. There's a page break. Here's

1:06:08.760 --> 1:06:13.800
<v Speaker 2>BHA's position and why yep. And we're a membership organization,

1:06:13.880 --> 1:06:15.760
<v Speaker 2>which is awesome because I get to say, like, this

1:06:15.840 --> 1:06:21.480
<v Speaker 2>is what the membership wants and we actually, yeah, we

1:06:21.600 --> 1:06:24.360
<v Speaker 2>just we've had some high level meetings because people have

1:06:24.440 --> 1:06:27.200
<v Speaker 2>been paying attention to our communications and saying like, hey,

1:06:27.560 --> 1:06:29.760
<v Speaker 2>thank you for not raking us over the calls on this.

1:06:29.960 --> 1:06:36.040
<v Speaker 2>Got it? We were told everybody wants this. No, like

1:06:36.120 --> 1:06:39.240
<v Speaker 2>we were told that why is it that we're getting

1:06:39.280 --> 1:06:43.120
<v Speaker 2>beat up here here, here, here, and here, And I say, well,

1:06:43.840 --> 1:06:49.880
<v Speaker 2>we represent a bunch of people who actually love this,

1:06:51.000 --> 1:06:54.680
<v Speaker 2>and it is not always congruous with that. And the

1:06:54.760 --> 1:06:59.680
<v Speaker 2>reason that we're in this situation is because you know,

1:07:00.080 --> 1:07:03.520
<v Speaker 2>certain we kind of divert certain people up certain trails,

1:07:03.960 --> 1:07:07.360
<v Speaker 2>and we divert other people up other trails. And when

1:07:07.360 --> 1:07:09.280
<v Speaker 2>you're riding really fast on a dirt bike. You don't

1:07:09.280 --> 1:07:12.560
<v Speaker 2>really want to be stopping for backpackers all the time.

1:07:13.000 --> 1:07:16.000
<v Speaker 2>And that's kind of how we have this system. And conversely,

1:07:16.920 --> 1:07:20.080
<v Speaker 2>you got to string of mules. You don't want mountain

1:07:20.120 --> 1:07:25.640
<v Speaker 2>bikes or or motorbikes ripping really fast, especially in spots

1:07:25.640 --> 1:07:29.760
<v Speaker 2>where there's no place to divert. Right so Capital w

1:07:29.760 --> 1:07:35.240
<v Speaker 2>Wilderness and some WSA ground and stuff like that. Right So,

1:07:35.640 --> 1:07:39.440
<v Speaker 2>there's just a huge burden of education that has to

1:07:39.520 --> 1:07:44.960
<v Speaker 2>happen here. And within the first Trump administration, this Trumpe administration,

1:07:46.600 --> 1:07:51.200
<v Speaker 2>they move incredibly fast, ye incredibly fast, and there's a

1:07:51.240 --> 1:07:54.920
<v Speaker 2>bunch of catchup that's happening. And I posted when this

1:07:54.960 --> 1:08:00.600
<v Speaker 2>OAHV order came out said, listen, I'm not worried about

1:08:00.960 --> 1:08:06.520
<v Speaker 2>the motorized use community at large. I'm not aware of

1:08:06.720 --> 1:08:10.160
<v Speaker 2>any motorized groups that want to see habitat destruction, that

1:08:10.240 --> 1:08:14.360
<v Speaker 2>want to see a decrease in wildlife populations that you know.

1:08:14.800 --> 1:08:15.840
<v Speaker 1>No one has that policy.

1:08:16.000 --> 1:08:18.120
<v Speaker 2>They don't, they don't, that's not part of the mission statement.

1:08:18.640 --> 1:08:22.439
<v Speaker 2>But every single user group out there has people that

1:08:22.479 --> 1:08:25.479
<v Speaker 2>are more than willing to color outside the lines. And

1:08:25.560 --> 1:08:28.400
<v Speaker 2>I am worried that because of the way that this

1:08:28.560 --> 1:08:33.599
<v Speaker 2>is messaged, that we're going to see those people out

1:08:33.640 --> 1:08:39.120
<v Speaker 2>there representing the outdoor community, and it is it's a

1:08:39.160 --> 1:08:41.720
<v Speaker 2>burden on all of us. Right. It's like if you

1:08:41.720 --> 1:08:43.840
<v Speaker 2>get if you don't have folks who are out there

1:08:43.920 --> 1:08:48.960
<v Speaker 2>using public lands frequently, even just on like this is

1:08:48.960 --> 1:08:52.720
<v Speaker 2>what I do most weekends type of basis, you show

1:08:52.800 --> 1:08:55.000
<v Speaker 2>up and you're like, oh my god, the people that

1:08:55.360 --> 1:08:59.559
<v Speaker 2>come out to these places are total pigs. Right, Just

1:08:59.640 --> 1:09:02.880
<v Speaker 2>as I've been reaching out to a lot of motorized

1:09:02.920 --> 1:09:06.519
<v Speaker 2>industry folks and a lot of athletes right now to

1:09:06.760 --> 1:09:09.400
<v Speaker 2>say like, hey, let's work on some messaging that's on

1:09:09.560 --> 1:09:14.639
<v Speaker 2>responsible uset and the response has been like oh absolutely.

1:09:14.200 --> 1:09:20.519
<v Speaker 1>Really yeah, yeah yeah. Now take the Roldest rule and

1:09:20.960 --> 1:09:25.439
<v Speaker 1>you mentioned earlier, and the Roldest rule in very simple

1:09:25.560 --> 1:09:32.439
<v Speaker 1>terms for listeners to understand the road. This rule. It's

1:09:32.720 --> 1:09:35.479
<v Speaker 1>one of those political ping pongs that bounce back and forth.

1:09:35.520 --> 1:09:40.040
<v Speaker 1>But it'll be like, are were cutting new roads onto

1:09:40.160 --> 1:09:47.599
<v Speaker 1>national forest lands. It became especially relevant to Tongus National

1:09:47.640 --> 1:09:53.880
<v Speaker 1>Forest where there was is remains a desire to cut

1:09:53.880 --> 1:09:57.920
<v Speaker 1>in roads on national forests that would lead to old

1:09:57.960 --> 1:10:01.200
<v Speaker 1>growth timber cuts, cut in roads where the government would

1:10:01.240 --> 1:10:05.000
<v Speaker 1>cut in roads on national forest land to facilitate mining activities,

1:10:05.040 --> 1:10:07.760
<v Speaker 1>and other things. The roadless Rule came out and said

1:10:08.439 --> 1:10:14.240
<v Speaker 1>that not constructing large scale roads and areas that are

1:10:14.479 --> 1:10:18.599
<v Speaker 1>through some formula designated to be like without roads, So

1:10:18.720 --> 1:10:22.920
<v Speaker 1>not tapping into areas that are that are enough of

1:10:22.960 --> 1:10:25.240
<v Speaker 1>a size to be regarded as an area that has

1:10:25.520 --> 1:10:28.760
<v Speaker 1>that is roadless. Right, doesn't prevent you from cutting a

1:10:28.760 --> 1:10:32.240
<v Speaker 1>little whatever driveway somewhere or something, but from building roads

1:10:32.240 --> 1:10:35.479
<v Speaker 1>to access new areas, and it would go in under

1:10:35.520 --> 1:10:40.840
<v Speaker 1>an administration and then it would get revoked or people

1:10:40.840 --> 1:10:45.120
<v Speaker 1>would attempt to revoke it. Right right now, we're in

1:10:45.240 --> 1:10:52.400
<v Speaker 1>process again of undoing the roadless ruling. Okay, So going

1:10:52.479 --> 1:10:54.600
<v Speaker 1>back to the time of being able to cut in

1:10:54.760 --> 1:10:59.280
<v Speaker 1>roads to facilitate mining, to cut in roads to facilitate

1:10:59.720 --> 1:11:02.479
<v Speaker 1>to cuts in some cases, the cut in roads to

1:11:02.520 --> 1:11:06.439
<v Speaker 1>facilitate timber improvement that isn't even related to mining, but

1:11:06.600 --> 1:11:12.080
<v Speaker 1>just to do timber improvement work. When I asked you

1:11:12.120 --> 1:11:17.760
<v Speaker 1>on the OHV thing, I ask you, like, what is

1:11:17.800 --> 1:11:20.840
<v Speaker 1>someone really driving at there? Like are they pursuing a

1:11:20.880 --> 1:11:23.200
<v Speaker 1>particular end? And you said, it's just kind of a

1:11:23.200 --> 1:11:27.160
<v Speaker 1>pendulum swing of trying to do a large scale reversal

1:11:27.400 --> 1:11:30.559
<v Speaker 1>of a of a restriction that was in place with

1:11:30.680 --> 1:11:35.320
<v Speaker 1>the roleless rule. Is it like, is undoing the roleless

1:11:35.400 --> 1:11:43.200
<v Speaker 1>Rule meant to drive a particular project somewhere or do

1:11:43.280 --> 1:11:50.040
<v Speaker 1>you accept it as just a more general movement or

1:11:50.080 --> 1:11:52.920
<v Speaker 1>is it tied to some like distinct thing that someone

1:11:53.000 --> 1:11:55.120
<v Speaker 1>wants to do somewhere, but in order for them to

1:11:55.160 --> 1:11:57.320
<v Speaker 1>do it, they have to undo the roleless Rule.

1:11:58.200 --> 1:12:02.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, I think it's both that there's some you know,

1:12:02.439 --> 1:12:06.679
<v Speaker 2>real specific projects in mind. I really don't think it's timber.

1:12:07.720 --> 1:12:09.839
<v Speaker 2>I think I think it would be like mineral extraction,

1:12:12.040 --> 1:12:14.600
<v Speaker 2>and it is just part of this theme of like

1:12:14.720 --> 1:12:24.040
<v Speaker 2>broad deregulation. I think there's parts of the roadless Rule

1:12:24.720 --> 1:12:31.960
<v Speaker 2>that need to be like greatly reformed. We're talking so

1:12:32.160 --> 1:12:36.040
<v Speaker 2>every state could have had their own version of the

1:12:36.080 --> 1:12:39.120
<v Speaker 2>roadless Rule. Idaho and Colorado are the only states that

1:12:39.200 --> 1:12:41.920
<v Speaker 2>did that. So we're really talking about like forty five

1:12:41.960 --> 1:12:46.479
<v Speaker 2>million acres. And we've said from the very beginning, it's like, well,

1:12:46.680 --> 1:12:49.439
<v Speaker 2>tell us what you really want, because the timber industry says,

1:12:49.439 --> 1:12:54.120
<v Speaker 2>this isn't about timber, it's not going to be forty

1:12:54.120 --> 1:12:59.840
<v Speaker 2>five million acres, Like we're talking a few thousand here

1:13:00.120 --> 1:13:02.559
<v Speaker 2>here and here and and maybe a couple hundred miles

1:13:02.560 --> 1:13:05.559
<v Speaker 2>a road. Let's talk about.

1:13:05.400 --> 1:13:08.200
<v Speaker 1>That, like inviting the conversation to get down to like

1:13:08.400 --> 1:13:11.080
<v Speaker 1>if if this is about a thing, let's talk about

1:13:11.120 --> 1:13:13.240
<v Speaker 1>the thing. Yeah, yeah, got it.

1:13:13.320 --> 1:13:17.200
<v Speaker 2>And we haven't gotten there yet. I will tell you

1:13:17.240 --> 1:13:21.720
<v Speaker 2>that there's legitimate gripes on the roadless rule because it

1:13:21.800 --> 1:13:29.280
<v Speaker 2>is open to a little bit of interpretation. And there's

1:13:29.360 --> 1:13:38.920
<v Speaker 2>been areas districts for us where the managers decided that

1:13:38.920 --> 1:13:40.800
<v Speaker 2>they wanted to like a little extra buffer around their

1:13:40.880 --> 1:13:46.240
<v Speaker 2>roadless they're categorized roadless areas, right, And it's like, yeah,

1:13:46.240 --> 1:13:48.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean just think all the conversations we've had about

1:13:48.320 --> 1:13:51.840
<v Speaker 2>like the national park has got an end somewhere you

1:13:51.880 --> 1:13:55.200
<v Speaker 2>don't get a buffer or else just call it park

1:13:55.800 --> 1:13:56.400
<v Speaker 2>or don't.

1:13:57.000 --> 1:14:01.240
<v Speaker 1>You Yeah, just for listeners, what Cal's refering to is

1:14:01.280 --> 1:14:04.920
<v Speaker 1>you might have I mean, everybody in the world has

1:14:04.920 --> 1:14:11.560
<v Speaker 1>sort of Yellowstone National Park. Oftentimes there's wildlife management issues.

1:14:13.000 --> 1:14:16.280
<v Speaker 1>There's there's wildlife management decisions that are made along the

1:14:16.360 --> 1:14:20.800
<v Speaker 1>border where the park has a gray area, Right, there's

1:14:20.880 --> 1:14:24.280
<v Speaker 1>like if the if you imagine the park is black

1:14:24.360 --> 1:14:26.679
<v Speaker 1>on a map and out of the park is white

1:14:26.720 --> 1:14:29.440
<v Speaker 1>on a map. They create certain gray areas for wildlife

1:14:29.479 --> 1:14:33.120
<v Speaker 1>management and for other management practices to to create like

1:14:33.120 --> 1:14:36.080
<v Speaker 1>I said, a buffer Yeah, a buffer zone, meaning it

1:14:36.120 --> 1:14:41.479
<v Speaker 1>won't be that it wouldn't be that cities get built

1:14:41.560 --> 1:14:45.040
<v Speaker 1>up to the wall to the line, because you're trying

1:14:45.080 --> 1:14:48.640
<v Speaker 1>to you're trying to mitigate impacts on the edge that

1:14:48.760 --> 1:14:50.240
<v Speaker 1>might affect the interior.

1:14:50.520 --> 1:14:54.800
<v Speaker 2>Yep, yep. And then from a wildlife perspective, red it's

1:14:54.800 --> 1:14:57.519
<v Speaker 2>like we have like wolf management zones in Montana that

1:14:57.600 --> 1:15:05.559
<v Speaker 2>are right against the park ye. Because socially it was

1:15:05.680 --> 1:15:08.960
<v Speaker 2>decided like, well, if wolves are gonna leave the park,

1:15:09.880 --> 1:15:11.880
<v Speaker 2>they're probably gonna get really beat up right on the

1:15:11.960 --> 1:15:14.080
<v Speaker 2>edge of the park, and then there's gonna be a

1:15:14.120 --> 1:15:19.280
<v Speaker 2>little education curve, and the further they get away, the

1:15:19.520 --> 1:15:22.880
<v Speaker 2>more wary they're going to be, their survivability is going

1:15:22.920 --> 1:15:24.160
<v Speaker 2>to be higher.

1:15:24.240 --> 1:15:26.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So some wolf pack that spends seventy five percent

1:15:26.920 --> 1:15:29.080
<v Speaker 1>of the time in the park and they tend to

1:15:29.160 --> 1:15:31.200
<v Speaker 1>wander over to some little area, there might be some

1:15:31.280 --> 1:15:35.080
<v Speaker 1>extra regulation where they wander over in order to protect

1:15:35.120 --> 1:15:40.439
<v Speaker 1>the integrity of the of a popular pack, wildlife viewing

1:15:40.520 --> 1:15:41.479
<v Speaker 1>pack in the park. Yeah.

1:15:41.960 --> 1:15:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Well, on the roadless side of things, you know,

1:15:44.720 --> 1:15:54.080
<v Speaker 2>there's like viable sold timber projects that were tied up

1:15:54.120 --> 1:15:56.800
<v Speaker 2>in a lot of red tape because they were adjacent.

1:15:56.280 --> 1:16:03.280
<v Speaker 1>To okay, right, and then it and that causes frustration.

1:16:03.040 --> 1:16:06.160
<v Speaker 2>Big time frustration, right, and it like I can see

1:16:06.160 --> 1:16:09.280
<v Speaker 2>how that leads to like it's totally flawed through the

1:16:09.280 --> 1:16:09.840
<v Speaker 2>whole thing out.

1:16:09.920 --> 1:16:12.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Like someone's saying, no, I get it, we can't

1:16:12.800 --> 1:16:14.280
<v Speaker 1>We're not going to cut in the park. But you're

1:16:14.280 --> 1:16:15.719
<v Speaker 1>saying I can't cut by the park.

1:16:16.240 --> 1:16:19.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah exactly, and not only not by the park, but

1:16:20.320 --> 1:16:21.799
<v Speaker 2>how far away from the park.

1:16:22.000 --> 1:16:23.000
<v Speaker 1>No, yeah, yeah.

1:16:23.280 --> 1:16:29.479
<v Speaker 2>And then the roadless rule as it's written, you can

1:16:29.960 --> 1:16:34.320
<v Speaker 2>build roads or reopen roads temporarily to go in and

1:16:34.400 --> 1:16:38.880
<v Speaker 2>do wildfire mitigation. You can go in and do like

1:16:39.160 --> 1:16:43.800
<v Speaker 2>habitat work. And oftentimes that stuff gets litigated to death

1:16:43.840 --> 1:16:48.040
<v Speaker 2>and tied up. And sometimes it's just not even a

1:16:48.080 --> 1:16:51.720
<v Speaker 2>conversation that people are willing to have because it will

1:16:51.760 --> 1:16:53.360
<v Speaker 2>get litigated and tied up.

1:16:53.479 --> 1:16:53.840
<v Speaker 1>Got it.

1:16:55.320 --> 1:16:58.640
<v Speaker 2>And so the proper implementation and this is where I

1:16:58.680 --> 1:17:04.360
<v Speaker 2>think concerts has a real all of us groups have

1:17:04.400 --> 1:17:08.360
<v Speaker 2>a real failure is we work like hell to build

1:17:08.400 --> 1:17:14.080
<v Speaker 2>something like the roadless Rule, and then the implementation part,

1:17:15.560 --> 1:17:19.479
<v Speaker 2>like we're in it for the sanctuary areas, Like, by god,

1:17:21.760 --> 1:17:23.840
<v Speaker 2>we got some areas carved out here where there's not

1:17:23.880 --> 1:17:27.560
<v Speaker 2>gonna be roads. It's human powered only, it's going to

1:17:27.640 --> 1:17:32.720
<v Speaker 2>exclude folks who aren't willing to do that. I'm going

1:17:32.760 --> 1:17:35.800
<v Speaker 2>to have a little honey hole and that's our focus.

1:17:36.320 --> 1:17:41.560
<v Speaker 2>Or we protected, like really protected these zones from anything

1:17:41.600 --> 1:17:46.080
<v Speaker 2>but natural erosion. We're going to have great chinook sakae

1:17:46.200 --> 1:17:52.760
<v Speaker 2>salmon boltrout spawning there forever type of thing. Well, we

1:17:52.800 --> 1:17:56.320
<v Speaker 2>don't show up when the litigation groups show up and say,

1:17:56.320 --> 1:17:59.160
<v Speaker 2>oh no, you guys can't do a habitat improvement project.

1:18:00.200 --> 1:18:03.240
<v Speaker 2>You guys can't go in there and do wildfire mitigation

1:18:04.160 --> 1:18:08.000
<v Speaker 2>as it's outlined within the roadless Rule. Yeah right, And

1:18:08.080 --> 1:18:12.160
<v Speaker 2>so you know, I haven't put my money where the

1:18:12.200 --> 1:18:15.000
<v Speaker 2>mouth is yet, but I've had a lot of conversations

1:18:15.040 --> 1:18:18.720
<v Speaker 2>to see, like how it would be feasible for a

1:18:18.760 --> 1:18:21.720
<v Speaker 2>group like backcountry hunters and anglers two way in on

1:18:21.800 --> 1:18:27.320
<v Speaker 2>those on behalf of proactive management. Yeah not, because I

1:18:27.400 --> 1:18:30.400
<v Speaker 2>think that's exactly why we're here. But I do want

1:18:30.439 --> 1:18:33.680
<v Speaker 2>to take that argument out of the quiver right and

1:18:33.720 --> 1:18:36.000
<v Speaker 2>be like, yeah, we came to the table, we signed

1:18:36.000 --> 1:18:39.559
<v Speaker 2>the dotted line. We agree that this is how the

1:18:39.640 --> 1:18:44.040
<v Speaker 2>roadless rule should function, So shouldn't we have some skin

1:18:44.200 --> 1:18:46.280
<v Speaker 2>in making it function that way.

1:18:48.040 --> 1:18:49.720
<v Speaker 1>It's so interesting you bring that up, because I was

1:18:49.760 --> 1:18:51.640
<v Speaker 1>discussing this with a friend of mine a couple of

1:18:51.720 --> 1:18:58.559
<v Speaker 1>days ago, and we were talking about the way the

1:18:58.600 --> 1:19:07.200
<v Speaker 1>conservation community will get activated around certain marquee very high

1:19:07.360 --> 1:19:12.120
<v Speaker 1>value around the protection of certain marquee very high value

1:19:12.479 --> 1:19:18.160
<v Speaker 1>areas and resist development on those places. We saw it

1:19:18.200 --> 1:19:24.640
<v Speaker 1>with a coalition of people from across the sporting and

1:19:24.760 --> 1:19:30.640
<v Speaker 1>outdoor and birding and commercial fishing spectrum in opposition to

1:19:30.720 --> 1:19:34.360
<v Speaker 1>developing a mine in the headwaters of Bristol Bay. Right.

1:19:34.840 --> 1:19:38.920
<v Speaker 1>Everybody saw that. We saw not nearly as dramatic, but

1:19:38.920 --> 1:19:43.400
<v Speaker 1>a coming together around protecting the headwaters leading into the

1:19:43.439 --> 1:19:50.240
<v Speaker 1>Boundary Waters Wilderness area. Maybe even less than that, but

1:19:50.240 --> 1:19:55.280
<v Speaker 1>seeing a coalition of people questioning the idea of pushing

1:19:55.320 --> 1:19:57.400
<v Speaker 1>back against the idea of building a two hundred and

1:19:57.439 --> 1:20:01.760
<v Speaker 1>fifty mile industrial corridor into the range called Ambler Road.

1:20:02.920 --> 1:20:06.320
<v Speaker 1>And what we were talking about is is like when

1:20:06.320 --> 1:20:12.559
<v Speaker 1>it's a no, we come out to say no, right yep.

1:20:12.960 --> 1:20:16.160
<v Speaker 1>And if someone came to me and said okay, then okay,

1:20:16.680 --> 1:20:18.960
<v Speaker 1>I get it. You don't like that, you don't like that,

1:20:19.280 --> 1:20:21.200
<v Speaker 1>you don't like that, what is okay?

1:20:21.760 --> 1:20:22.040
<v Speaker 2>Yep?

1:20:22.600 --> 1:20:29.599
<v Speaker 1>What is okay? It's a fault. It's like a negative

1:20:29.640 --> 1:20:32.240
<v Speaker 1>about me. It's a fault that I would say, I

1:20:32.280 --> 1:20:34.760
<v Speaker 1>don't know. I'll have to tell you when I hear.

1:20:35.520 --> 1:20:36.120
<v Speaker 1>Do you know what I mean?

1:20:36.400 --> 1:20:39.400
<v Speaker 2>Because that's an argument that we use on their roadless rule, right,

1:20:39.479 --> 1:20:42.360
<v Speaker 2>It is like, okay, if you're talking about timber, what

1:20:42.520 --> 1:20:47.400
<v Speaker 2>about all this high alpine terrain where it's so highly

1:20:47.439 --> 1:20:50.519
<v Speaker 2>irrodable you can't build a road and there happens to

1:20:50.560 --> 1:20:54.720
<v Speaker 2>be no timber. Can we still call that inventory roadless? Yeah,

1:20:54.840 --> 1:20:57.400
<v Speaker 2>if you want the timber, right, Like, so it's the

1:20:57.400 --> 1:20:58.880
<v Speaker 2>same argument, yeah, right.

1:20:58.760 --> 1:21:02.360
<v Speaker 1>But I mean, like, but I sometimes wonder is if

1:21:02.360 --> 1:21:05.000
<v Speaker 1>you if if you are, if you're gonna come and

1:21:05.040 --> 1:21:08.160
<v Speaker 1>you're going to be in opposition to some things, at

1:21:08.160 --> 1:21:11.400
<v Speaker 1>what point do you have an obligation to go and say,

1:21:11.439 --> 1:21:15.320
<v Speaker 1>but here is what's okay yep yep? Or is it

1:21:15.439 --> 1:21:18.000
<v Speaker 1>morally okay to just be like, no, I'm the guy

1:21:18.040 --> 1:21:20.880
<v Speaker 1>that tells you when it's no. I don't know the guy.

1:21:21.000 --> 1:21:22.160
<v Speaker 1>I don't know the yes guy.

1:21:23.000 --> 1:21:27.160
<v Speaker 2>I I don't think it is. I think the answer though,

1:21:27.280 --> 1:21:31.000
<v Speaker 2>is like it is just complicated. We have a insanely

1:21:31.080 --> 1:21:36.240
<v Speaker 2>diverse landscape, a tree faller back when those were the

1:21:36.280 --> 1:21:38.280
<v Speaker 2>dudes really doing the work on the landscape, and there

1:21:38.320 --> 1:21:41.120
<v Speaker 2>still are are plenty. But it's a dye and breed.

1:21:41.560 --> 1:21:44.840
<v Speaker 2>They will tell you like, you can't cut the same

1:21:44.880 --> 1:21:51.200
<v Speaker 2>tree twice, meaning that the asspect matters, the slope, the

1:21:51.240 --> 1:21:53.599
<v Speaker 2>picture of the tree, all the things. It is a

1:21:53.640 --> 1:21:59.640
<v Speaker 2>tree by tree calculation, right, which is why it's it's hard,

1:22:00.040 --> 1:22:04.639
<v Speaker 2>and it takes skilled people with lots of lots of knowledge,

1:22:04.720 --> 1:22:10.679
<v Speaker 2>lots of practice. So I think people are capable of

1:22:10.960 --> 1:22:15.280
<v Speaker 2>being the yes person when it comes to a renewable

1:22:15.400 --> 1:22:19.360
<v Speaker 2>project such as you know a good timber project, right,

1:22:19.439 --> 1:22:22.440
<v Speaker 2>good timber project pays lots of dividends on the wildlife

1:22:22.439 --> 1:22:28.080
<v Speaker 2>side of things. But you're gonna have to wait, but

1:22:28.120 --> 1:22:31.880
<v Speaker 2>it you know, it will come back. Right. You're gonna

1:22:32.080 --> 1:22:35.639
<v Speaker 2>eat that cow elk tag for for that zone maybe

1:22:35.640 --> 1:22:39.760
<v Speaker 2>this year, but there's gonna be parts of it next year.

1:22:39.800 --> 1:22:42.200
<v Speaker 2>You can hunt and then there's more of it the

1:22:42.200 --> 1:22:45.400
<v Speaker 2>following year, yeah, right, and then it's probably gonna suck

1:22:45.439 --> 1:22:49.080
<v Speaker 2>for a while as once in fifteen years down the road,

1:22:49.080 --> 1:22:50.360
<v Speaker 2>depending on where.

1:22:49.720 --> 1:22:51.960
<v Speaker 1>You'll be sweet for ten years after the cut and

1:22:52.000 --> 1:22:55.320
<v Speaker 1>then laying for a year and then like increasingly better

1:22:55.400 --> 1:22:58.680
<v Speaker 1>than eventually Yeah, go away, and you look forward to that.

1:22:58.960 --> 1:23:05.000
<v Speaker 2>But those areas also do their own job of spreading

1:23:05.040 --> 1:23:07.760
<v Speaker 2>out the pressure on public land, right, because we all

1:23:07.800 --> 1:23:11.080
<v Speaker 2>have those spots where it takes us years to be like,

1:23:12.400 --> 1:23:16.680
<v Speaker 2>you know what, this place used to be sweet, but

1:23:16.720 --> 1:23:19.639
<v Speaker 2>I've just been coming here and it sucked the last

1:23:19.800 --> 1:23:22.800
<v Speaker 2>three years. Time to go find a new spot. Well,

1:23:23.000 --> 1:23:26.640
<v Speaker 2>you've been sitting there pounding your head against you know,

1:23:26.960 --> 1:23:31.439
<v Speaker 2>a dense mat of trees. Somebody else is being like,

1:23:31.439 --> 1:23:33.439
<v Speaker 2>oh my gosh, this place is sweet. There's nobody here,

1:23:34.120 --> 1:23:36.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, on the other side of that block, right,

1:23:37.920 --> 1:23:41.519
<v Speaker 2>And so those changes in the landscape are always a

1:23:41.600 --> 1:23:45.519
<v Speaker 2>negative and a positive for all of us out there.

1:23:45.520 --> 1:23:49.080
<v Speaker 2>It's just like the game. So yeah, I do think

1:23:49.200 --> 1:23:53.680
<v Speaker 2>it is possible to be the yes person, but you

1:23:53.800 --> 1:23:56.559
<v Speaker 2>got to be involved enough to be like, oh, this

1:23:56.680 --> 1:24:01.840
<v Speaker 2>project's proposed, is there a mechanism for us to weigh

1:24:01.840 --> 1:24:02.200
<v Speaker 2>in on that.

1:24:02.520 --> 1:24:06.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Yeah, I think that that probably I think that

1:24:06.720 --> 1:24:14.920
<v Speaker 1>it would be a good pressure relief valve if the

1:24:15.840 --> 1:24:20.160
<v Speaker 1>for the conservation community to maybe get more involved in

1:24:20.280 --> 1:24:25.439
<v Speaker 1>what's more involved in pointing out and facilitating what's okay.

1:24:26.520 --> 1:24:30.599
<v Speaker 1>But a lot of it is there's just absolutism, yes,

1:24:30.920 --> 1:24:33.920
<v Speaker 1>and and and and there's been a lot of absolutists

1:24:34.560 --> 1:24:39.920
<v Speaker 1>that are very celebrated yep, and regarded as effective, you know,

1:24:40.120 --> 1:24:45.880
<v Speaker 1>like like like Edward Abbey was a desert absolutist to

1:24:45.920 --> 1:24:48.400
<v Speaker 1>the point where he's sort of to the point where

1:24:48.439 --> 1:24:52.400
<v Speaker 1>he not even tacitly, to the point where through fiction

1:24:52.600 --> 1:24:57.200
<v Speaker 1>he like glorified eco terrorism, right, Like, he was an absolutist,

1:24:57.439 --> 1:25:00.880
<v Speaker 1>And a lot of people would look and say, like absolutism,

1:25:02.040 --> 1:25:04.639
<v Speaker 1>anything else is you know, anything else is you're weak?

1:25:05.760 --> 1:25:08.120
<v Speaker 1>Anything else as you have cracks in the you know,

1:25:08.240 --> 1:25:11.719
<v Speaker 1>you have cracks in the fence. But I do wonder

1:25:11.720 --> 1:25:16.559
<v Speaker 1>about being more like like if and I don't even

1:25:16.560 --> 1:25:22.720
<v Speaker 1>know the answer to this, that if there had been

1:25:22.760 --> 1:25:30.680
<v Speaker 1>a greater effort toward negotiating certain things, we would not

1:25:30.840 --> 1:25:34.280
<v Speaker 1>be in this situation of talking about repealing the of

1:25:34.360 --> 1:25:37.960
<v Speaker 1>repealing the role in this rule you know, I don't know.

1:25:38.240 --> 1:25:43.080
<v Speaker 1>Another case of absolutism gone wrong in a different direction,

1:25:43.720 --> 1:25:49.160
<v Speaker 1>the wild Horse and Burrow Protection Act YEP. Is, there

1:25:49.200 --> 1:25:51.240
<v Speaker 1>was a time when there weren't that many wild horses around.

1:25:51.760 --> 1:25:53.559
<v Speaker 1>People thought they were being abused and thought they were

1:25:53.600 --> 1:25:59.000
<v Speaker 1>going to vanish. They made a absolutism case and now

1:25:59.080 --> 1:26:05.400
<v Speaker 1>it has generated enormous friction YEP with wildlife managers where

1:26:05.400 --> 1:26:09.479
<v Speaker 1>you're like, they just left no room. There's they left

1:26:09.520 --> 1:26:16.240
<v Speaker 1>no room for logical, meaningful corrections to a problem.

1:26:17.040 --> 1:26:20.200
<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, because you kind of get to this trap,

1:26:20.600 --> 1:26:22.400
<v Speaker 2>like we said in the beginning, right, like we got

1:26:22.400 --> 1:26:27.040
<v Speaker 2>to think beyond this administration, right, and so this OHV deal.

1:26:28.800 --> 1:26:32.240
<v Speaker 2>Like I'm I spend a lot of time, Like I

1:26:32.280 --> 1:26:36.519
<v Speaker 2>feel like everybody knows that I gravitate towards human powered love,

1:26:36.560 --> 1:26:42.240
<v Speaker 2>my wilderness areas, love big backpacking trips. You know, it's

1:26:42.400 --> 1:26:47.600
<v Speaker 2>just not like, certainly not a proficient motorized guy, but

1:26:47.920 --> 1:26:52.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, listen, every single trip I take starts with

1:26:52.560 --> 1:26:56.920
<v Speaker 2>a four wheel drive truck getting me to the trailhead, right,

1:26:56.960 --> 1:27:01.040
<v Speaker 2>So I can't be anti motorized use, right, Like that

1:27:01.160 --> 1:27:06.160
<v Speaker 2>is the thing that facilitates everything, you know, ninety nine

1:27:06.160 --> 1:27:10.080
<v Speaker 2>times out of one hundred for me. And so when

1:27:10.080 --> 1:27:13.800
<v Speaker 2>these headlines come out and it's like, oh, all the

1:27:13.800 --> 1:27:16.479
<v Speaker 2>motorized people want this, and I was like, no, they

1:27:16.479 --> 1:27:20.679
<v Speaker 2>really don't. I know that. Or it's all the motorized

1:27:20.720 --> 1:27:22.720
<v Speaker 2>folks or slobs and they're tearing the things up, and

1:27:22.720 --> 1:27:25.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, well, there's lots of different groups out there

1:27:25.880 --> 1:27:34.120
<v Speaker 2>that preach hard, responsible use all across the landscape, and

1:27:34.160 --> 1:27:41.320
<v Speaker 2>they are policing their own their own community, and you know,

1:27:41.400 --> 1:27:43.880
<v Speaker 2>that's like something that we have always done is like,

1:27:44.280 --> 1:27:48.479
<v Speaker 2>is that social contract? If you're going to represent single

1:27:48.520 --> 1:27:52.600
<v Speaker 2>track dirt bikes, do it in this manner. Don't do

1:27:52.680 --> 1:27:55.759
<v Speaker 2>it like this, right because there is the pendulum swinging

1:27:55.760 --> 1:27:59.519
<v Speaker 2>the other way. It's like, oh, you lose access to

1:27:59.600 --> 1:28:07.040
<v Speaker 2>all of it stuff, and access can be weaponized. Like

1:28:07.920 --> 1:28:10.120
<v Speaker 2>it was the first thing that I saw on this job,

1:28:10.200 --> 1:28:15.479
<v Speaker 2>right is like everybody you know, Dave six or seven

1:28:15.520 --> 1:28:18.759
<v Speaker 2>on the job. I went and testified in the House

1:28:18.840 --> 1:28:23.800
<v Speaker 2>Natural Resources Committee, which is pretty wild, you know, because

1:28:23.840 --> 1:28:28.840
<v Speaker 2>I did have like a moment of like, oh, I

1:28:28.880 --> 1:28:32.600
<v Speaker 2>could tank the entire organization right now, live on c

1:28:32.720 --> 1:28:37.240
<v Speaker 2>SPAM stressful, I can just say whatever and it would

1:28:37.280 --> 1:28:44.280
<v Speaker 2>probably just be done, no coming back. But you know,

1:28:44.360 --> 1:28:47.559
<v Speaker 2>everybody there was talking was like access, access, access, access,

1:28:47.560 --> 1:28:50.400
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, well, wait a minute, what do

1:28:50.479 --> 1:28:51.040
<v Speaker 2>you mean.

1:28:50.960 --> 1:28:53.200
<v Speaker 1>I've run into this, right, it means different things to

1:28:53.240 --> 1:28:53.800
<v Speaker 1>different people.

1:28:53.880 --> 1:28:56.479
<v Speaker 3>It means different things to different It's like you're like, oh,

1:28:56.520 --> 1:29:00.000
<v Speaker 3>if we're gonna if that's good, I'm going to define

1:29:00.280 --> 1:29:03.280
<v Speaker 3>how I want and know that everyone thinks it's good

1:29:03.760 --> 1:29:05.040
<v Speaker 3>because the word is good.

1:29:05.560 --> 1:29:09.679
<v Speaker 2>Yep. And and then we have to have this more

1:29:10.439 --> 1:29:14.559
<v Speaker 2>in depth conversation of being like, listen, the thing that

1:29:14.600 --> 1:29:18.040
<v Speaker 2>you're after is only going to survive for so long.

1:29:18.880 --> 1:29:25.160
<v Speaker 2>If that's where we punch a big road in, if

1:29:25.520 --> 1:29:31.759
<v Speaker 2>we remove the seasonal closures that exist for wintering range

1:29:31.920 --> 1:29:37.000
<v Speaker 2>or calving areas. Like the reason that those regulations are

1:29:37.040 --> 1:29:40.440
<v Speaker 2>in place are so you can go have that experience.

1:29:40.920 --> 1:29:42.640
<v Speaker 2>It's just it's only going to be there if you

1:29:42.680 --> 1:29:43.360
<v Speaker 2>do it in this way.

1:29:43.560 --> 1:29:48.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a great point. What you want to, what

1:29:48.120 --> 1:29:52.639
<v Speaker 1>you're so dying to get to, is there because you can't.

1:29:53.920 --> 1:29:56.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, in these fashions, right, that's.

1:29:56.800 --> 1:29:59.599
<v Speaker 1>This time of year or whatever. Right, what you're wanting

1:29:59.680 --> 1:30:02.280
<v Speaker 1>is your wanting to You're wanting to drive to a

1:30:02.320 --> 1:30:04.480
<v Speaker 1>thing that wouldn't be there if you could.

1:30:05.080 --> 1:30:09.040
<v Speaker 2>And like I high country mule deer, right, I used

1:30:09.040 --> 1:30:14.599
<v Speaker 2>to just love spending so much time, uh early season

1:30:14.640 --> 1:30:19.840
<v Speaker 2>scouting for mule deer and and then archery hunting that

1:30:20.000 --> 1:30:23.640
<v Speaker 2>high country big basin mule deer. Right, And it's like,

1:30:24.960 --> 1:30:29.320
<v Speaker 2>if they see you one time, they're just gone, right,

1:30:29.360 --> 1:30:31.400
<v Speaker 2>and it can take them weeks to come back to

1:30:31.439 --> 1:30:34.559
<v Speaker 2>that spot. And yeah, you can go find them again somewhere.

1:30:35.120 --> 1:30:41.040
<v Speaker 2>But having this notion that you can create access as

1:30:41.080 --> 1:30:43.920
<v Speaker 2>defined by whatever, Like there's some things that just are

1:30:43.960 --> 1:30:45.840
<v Speaker 2>not going to tolerate no, Right, If.

1:30:45.720 --> 1:30:47.400
<v Speaker 1>I could just drive in there and finally get them

1:30:47.400 --> 1:30:49.000
<v Speaker 1>big old bucks that are hiding back.

1:30:48.920 --> 1:30:51.920
<v Speaker 2>There, yeah, yeah, And it's like, well you can drive

1:30:51.960 --> 1:30:56.479
<v Speaker 2>aways in there and then get really really sneaky and

1:30:56.560 --> 1:30:59.559
<v Speaker 2>hike off trail and you know, play the wind and

1:30:59.600 --> 1:31:02.639
<v Speaker 2>do all the things that you pick up over the years.

1:31:03.280 --> 1:31:08.479
<v Speaker 2>And then if you really have the mental fortitude at

1:31:08.479 --> 1:31:10.559
<v Speaker 2>the end of a long day, drop all your stuff

1:31:10.600 --> 1:31:13.000
<v Speaker 2>and slide on your stomach up there and peek your

1:31:13.000 --> 1:31:17.240
<v Speaker 2>head over like your good chance, like you're gonna see

1:31:17.240 --> 1:31:21.240
<v Speaker 2>one unless some jackass was there before you and stood

1:31:21.320 --> 1:31:25.760
<v Speaker 2>up on the ridge right, So, and those are tough

1:31:25.760 --> 1:31:28.200
<v Speaker 2>conversations to have because you know there's a lot of

1:31:28.280 --> 1:31:30.400
<v Speaker 2>folks out there too who are like, well, man, I'm

1:31:30.400 --> 1:31:33.360
<v Speaker 2>a disabled veteran. Are you against me having that experience?

1:31:33.680 --> 1:31:34.040
<v Speaker 1>Understand?

1:31:34.120 --> 1:31:37.960
<v Speaker 2>And it's like, no, I want you to have that experience.

1:31:38.200 --> 1:31:42.720
<v Speaker 2>I would love to help facilitate that. But as a

1:31:42.720 --> 1:31:45.840
<v Speaker 2>guy who's had that experience a lot, you just got

1:31:45.840 --> 1:31:49.599
<v Speaker 2>to trust me that like that, you just can't get

1:31:49.640 --> 1:31:52.160
<v Speaker 2>in there that way and have that experience.

1:31:52.360 --> 1:31:52.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

1:31:53.680 --> 1:31:57.280
<v Speaker 2>Like, and we pick and choose all the time until

1:31:58.320 --> 1:32:03.519
<v Speaker 2>if we go back to roadless or this OHV executive order,

1:32:04.439 --> 1:32:07.719
<v Speaker 2>Like I can be a big enough person to be like, Okay,

1:32:07.760 --> 1:32:10.280
<v Speaker 2>well what are we going to open up? But what

1:32:10.320 --> 1:32:11.120
<v Speaker 2>are we going to close?

1:32:11.600 --> 1:32:12.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

1:32:12.479 --> 1:32:15.080
<v Speaker 2>Because we we have to have that because there's just

1:32:15.200 --> 1:32:17.880
<v Speaker 2>there's too many of us doing too many of the

1:32:17.920 --> 1:32:22.479
<v Speaker 2>things to you know, point literally, like point that gun

1:32:22.560 --> 1:32:25.519
<v Speaker 2>of impact at these areas.

1:32:25.720 --> 1:32:27.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because.

1:32:28.920 --> 1:32:33.280
<v Speaker 2>We know through our history that it will have this

1:32:33.520 --> 1:32:36.920
<v Speaker 2>adverse effect that we just can't think about when we're

1:32:36.920 --> 1:32:38.480
<v Speaker 2>so gung ho on the opportunity.

1:32:38.560 --> 1:32:43.880
<v Speaker 1>Right. Sure, let's jump subjects and talk about the ongoing

1:32:43.920 --> 1:32:49.599
<v Speaker 1>corner crossing debate, and I'll put it to you this way, well,

1:32:49.840 --> 1:32:51.960
<v Speaker 1>just I hate doing the bat. We talked about this

1:32:52.000 --> 1:32:53.880
<v Speaker 1>so much, and it's such an important issue. We've covered

1:32:53.880 --> 1:32:57.080
<v Speaker 1>it so many times. It's always it's always changing. But

1:32:57.240 --> 1:33:00.320
<v Speaker 1>just a very quick, very very quick recap corn corner

1:33:00.360 --> 1:33:04.280
<v Speaker 1>crossing if you're just kind of joining our sort of

1:33:04.560 --> 1:33:07.600
<v Speaker 1>universe of shows right now. Corner crossing has to do

1:33:07.640 --> 1:33:10.280
<v Speaker 1>with imagine that you're looking at a checkerboard and the

1:33:10.320 --> 1:33:13.479
<v Speaker 1>black squares our public land? Are they black and white?

1:33:13.520 --> 1:33:17.360
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, black and red on the checkerboard, got of checkerboard.

1:33:17.479 --> 1:33:22.360
<v Speaker 1>The black squares are sections of miles mile by miles

1:33:22.400 --> 1:33:26.000
<v Speaker 1>sections of public land. The red squares are mile by

1:33:26.040 --> 1:33:29.720
<v Speaker 1>mars mile by mile sections of private land. When we

1:33:29.760 --> 1:33:33.400
<v Speaker 1>refer to corner cross and we refer to whether it

1:33:33.479 --> 1:33:36.240
<v Speaker 1>is legal or not to step from the corner of

1:33:36.280 --> 1:33:38.719
<v Speaker 1>a black square to the corner of another black square,

1:33:39.360 --> 1:33:42.280
<v Speaker 1>that's corner crossing, and so that your shoulder, your feet

1:33:42.280 --> 1:33:45.280
<v Speaker 1>are never leaving the black, but your body's passing over

1:33:45.320 --> 1:33:47.479
<v Speaker 1>the red. And this is a this has been a

1:33:47.479 --> 1:33:50.240
<v Speaker 1>debate that's playing out for a long time, particularly in

1:33:50.240 --> 1:33:52.600
<v Speaker 1>the American West, where you have what we call checkerboarded

1:33:52.680 --> 1:33:59.720
<v Speaker 1>landscapes that are laid out in that same fashion through

1:33:59.720 --> 1:34:04.519
<v Speaker 1>the sorts through federal court. Corner crossing was made legal

1:34:05.800 --> 1:34:11.960
<v Speaker 1>in Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico helped me out here.

1:34:12.640 --> 1:34:16.679
<v Speaker 2>Uh yeah, the tenth Circuit, tenth circuit. Yeah, the whole

1:34:16.880 --> 1:34:19.960
<v Speaker 2>the whole tenth Circuit. So and I wouldn't say made legal.

1:34:20.000 --> 1:34:22.519
<v Speaker 2>I would say confirmed.

1:34:22.840 --> 1:34:27.160
<v Speaker 1>Legal, confirmed legal, Yeah, okay, not mad Yeah, like yeah,

1:34:27.160 --> 1:34:29.160
<v Speaker 1>that's a great question. Was yeah, it was. There was

1:34:29.200 --> 1:34:31.960
<v Speaker 1>there was a there was a debate. It was never

1:34:32.040 --> 1:34:33.840
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't like a change in the law. It was

1:34:33.880 --> 1:34:37.360
<v Speaker 1>just defining the existing law and clarifying the existing law

1:34:37.400 --> 1:34:40.040
<v Speaker 1>because there was there was confusion about it. Yep. But

1:34:40.080 --> 1:34:42.240
<v Speaker 1>it's still a big swath of the American West where

1:34:42.280 --> 1:34:47.240
<v Speaker 1>it's up in the air yep. And different states have

1:34:47.280 --> 1:34:50.479
<v Speaker 1>different interpretations. Different states open interpret you know, put out

1:34:50.479 --> 1:34:55.240
<v Speaker 1>different guidelines. If you had to crystal ball it a

1:34:55.360 --> 1:34:59.360
<v Speaker 1>year or two years, where do you think things are

1:34:59.400 --> 1:35:01.760
<v Speaker 1>gonna where do you think things are going to land.

1:35:01.800 --> 1:35:08.640
<v Speaker 1>Do you think that we'll see more confusion, more obfuscation

1:35:08.800 --> 1:35:11.200
<v Speaker 1>of whether you're you're allowed to do this, or do

1:35:11.240 --> 1:35:15.000
<v Speaker 1>you think that it'll that we'll see more clarity about

1:35:15.080 --> 1:35:17.760
<v Speaker 1>what really is allowed and what's not allowed when it

1:35:17.760 --> 1:35:18.759
<v Speaker 1>comes to corner crossing.

1:35:19.200 --> 1:35:22.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think the reason that we're seeing this debate

1:35:23.040 --> 1:35:27.479
<v Speaker 2>get more and more intense because it used to just never. Never,

1:35:27.960 --> 1:35:32.120
<v Speaker 2>it was a question. Certainly here in the state of Montana,

1:35:32.160 --> 1:35:35.719
<v Speaker 2>it was never an intense debate. There's many areas within

1:35:35.760 --> 1:35:38.720
<v Speaker 2>the state where it was just what people did.

1:35:38.920 --> 1:35:41.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. For a long time, it was a question that

1:35:41.400 --> 1:35:43.760
<v Speaker 1>rolled around in the back of a small number of

1:35:43.800 --> 1:35:46.680
<v Speaker 1>people's heads. Yes, and then it became a question that

1:35:46.800 --> 1:35:50.040
<v Speaker 1>was in the front of many people's minds.

1:35:50.160 --> 1:35:54.680
<v Speaker 2>Yes. Yeah. And you know the reason that that is

1:35:54.760 --> 1:35:59.360
<v Speaker 2>right is because, like we are just developing more and

1:35:59.400 --> 1:36:01.920
<v Speaker 2>more of the West and people are are planting their

1:36:01.920 --> 1:36:08.960
<v Speaker 2>flag permanently in places that were seasonal at most, right,

1:36:10.840 --> 1:36:16.519
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I think there is absolutely no question

1:36:16.680 --> 1:36:22.160
<v Speaker 2>whatsoever as to the legality. I think there's many many

1:36:22.240 --> 1:36:25.360
<v Speaker 2>questions right now that are getting played out. So, for instance,

1:36:25.439 --> 1:36:30.559
<v Speaker 2>back in the tenth Circuit in Wyoming, there's a push

1:36:31.240 --> 1:36:37.240
<v Speaker 2>to provide landowner compensation to people adjacent to corners. So

1:36:38.120 --> 1:36:41.920
<v Speaker 2>there's people walking from public ground to public ground without

1:36:41.960 --> 1:36:49.120
<v Speaker 2>ever touching private property. Can we monetarily compensate the landowners

1:36:49.120 --> 1:36:52.640
<v Speaker 2>who own the private lands that touch those corners.

1:36:55.400 --> 1:37:02.000
<v Speaker 1>There's but but that's not that would just be help

1:37:02.040 --> 1:37:03.439
<v Speaker 1>help me understand that, but.

1:37:03.479 --> 1:37:06.160
<v Speaker 2>Help that state question that's coming up.

1:37:06.200 --> 1:37:09.800
<v Speaker 1>But the state would be doing it as a good

1:37:09.840 --> 1:37:12.840
<v Speaker 1>will gesture that they're not doing it. They're not they're

1:37:12.880 --> 1:37:14.200
<v Speaker 1>not being legally forced to do.

1:37:14.680 --> 1:37:19.400
<v Speaker 2>Legally forced to do it. There's an ask as to

1:37:20.400 --> 1:37:25.760
<v Speaker 2>like a real legal one would be, can you corner

1:37:25.760 --> 1:37:31.240
<v Speaker 2>across from federal to state? Right? In states where we

1:37:31.360 --> 1:37:34.400
<v Speaker 2>have a kind of a de facto public access, we

1:37:34.520 --> 1:37:40.240
<v Speaker 2>use state ground as public ground. Well, this was a

1:37:40.280 --> 1:37:47.880
<v Speaker 2>federal decision I see, not a state decision that needs

1:37:47.880 --> 1:37:48.639
<v Speaker 2>to be figured out.

1:37:49.520 --> 1:37:51.720
<v Speaker 1>I'll tell you it's it's interesting you bring that up.

1:37:51.720 --> 1:37:54.439
<v Speaker 1>I would never considered that. Like if I was in

1:37:54.479 --> 1:38:00.559
<v Speaker 1>a clarified corner crossing legal state and I saw where

1:38:00.800 --> 1:38:03.760
<v Speaker 1>federal land and state land were connected by corners, I

1:38:03.760 --> 1:38:06.160
<v Speaker 1>would never even question whether you were allowed to hop

1:38:06.200 --> 1:38:06.679
<v Speaker 1>that corner.

1:38:06.840 --> 1:38:10.880
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, And that that is like one of the things, right,

1:38:10.920 --> 1:38:16.640
<v Speaker 2>like the huge broad general public. You give them a

1:38:16.680 --> 1:38:20.240
<v Speaker 2>pop quiz on this. It is just pure confusion. They're like,

1:38:20.240 --> 1:38:22.920
<v Speaker 2>why in the hell would that not be legal? Right?

1:38:22.920 --> 1:38:27.439
<v Speaker 2>You're not touching private property. And then you get in

1:38:27.520 --> 1:38:31.080
<v Speaker 2>circles where people have really really gone through the grinder

1:38:31.160 --> 1:38:33.760
<v Speaker 2>on this and they've looked at case law and it

1:38:33.840 --> 1:38:39.200
<v Speaker 2>gets overly complicated. Like you you start start getting into

1:38:39.240 --> 1:38:43.920
<v Speaker 2>these conversations where you've kind of lost the the on

1:38:43.960 --> 1:38:48.240
<v Speaker 2>the ground fact a long time ago, where it's like

1:38:48.400 --> 1:38:54.000
<v Speaker 2>you're you're just walking from here to there. So no

1:38:54.160 --> 1:38:59.519
<v Speaker 2>question in my mind as to if it's legal. It

1:39:00.120 --> 1:39:06.439
<v Speaker 2>is legal, I think because kind of like we talked

1:39:06.439 --> 1:39:10.599
<v Speaker 2>about on your your motorized community or non motorized community.

1:39:10.880 --> 1:39:13.320
<v Speaker 2>I remind people all the time, like if you're on

1:39:13.360 --> 1:39:16.599
<v Speaker 2>the private side of that fancy, you're a public landowner too,

1:39:17.160 --> 1:39:20.559
<v Speaker 2>and you also have way better access to that square

1:39:20.600 --> 1:39:25.320
<v Speaker 2>that you're you're trying to get to. So it behooves

1:39:25.360 --> 1:39:31.880
<v Speaker 2>all of us to come up with common language assurances

1:39:32.520 --> 1:39:39.120
<v Speaker 2>that clearly define the private property, the public property, and

1:39:39.200 --> 1:39:39.879
<v Speaker 2>the access.

1:39:40.320 --> 1:39:43.560
<v Speaker 1>But there is and I guess I can speak to

1:39:44.720 --> 1:39:47.760
<v Speaker 1>Montana where we're sitting right now, I can't speak to

1:39:47.760 --> 1:39:57.160
<v Speaker 1>other places there. There is like an uncertainty here where

1:39:59.600 --> 1:40:04.240
<v Speaker 1>the if you go and get your hunting regulation, there's

1:40:04.280 --> 1:40:07.040
<v Speaker 1>not a part of the hunting regulation that clarifies corner

1:40:07.040 --> 1:40:11.000
<v Speaker 1>crossing is okay, right, right, you get a mixed am

1:40:11.000 --> 1:40:14.160
<v Speaker 1>I wrong? No, you get a mixed signal yep.

1:40:14.880 --> 1:40:22.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it used to be if like ours are not suggestion,

1:40:23.040 --> 1:40:27.559
<v Speaker 2>different word are. What Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks would

1:40:27.560 --> 1:40:31.280
<v Speaker 2>like you to do is to contact the adjacent landowner

1:40:31.720 --> 1:40:35.880
<v Speaker 2>for permission to corner cross That was, and then if

1:40:39.400 --> 1:40:42.519
<v Speaker 2>if somebody were to try to get a warden out

1:40:42.520 --> 1:40:45.880
<v Speaker 2>there to cite you, the warden would then have to

1:40:46.000 --> 1:40:50.640
<v Speaker 2>contact the county prosecutor in order to issue that citation.

1:40:51.479 --> 1:40:58.280
<v Speaker 2>And then you know, that language ramped up to the

1:40:58.320 --> 1:41:04.880
<v Speaker 2>point where the state was implying, like this is illegal.

1:41:05.920 --> 1:41:08.320
<v Speaker 2>If you write the governor, you get a response back

1:41:08.360 --> 1:41:14.280
<v Speaker 2>that says it's illegal, and always has been. The secretary,

1:41:14.320 --> 1:41:19.040
<v Speaker 2>not the secretary of the state. The lieutenant governor, you know,

1:41:19.240 --> 1:41:24.320
<v Speaker 2>offered her opinion. A couple of our state senators said,

1:41:24.640 --> 1:41:27.360
<v Speaker 2>there it is. That's the law. It's illegal, which is

1:41:27.400 --> 1:41:28.840
<v Speaker 2>not how we create laws.

1:41:29.520 --> 1:41:32.760
<v Speaker 1>In the They offered the opinion that it was forbidden.

1:41:32.560 --> 1:41:36.880
<v Speaker 2>Yep, based off of case law, you.

1:41:36.840 --> 1:41:41.400
<v Speaker 1>Know like that. They offered an interpretation which was then

1:41:41.520 --> 1:41:43.920
<v Speaker 1>received as someone as the giving of the law.

1:41:44.160 --> 1:41:48.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, and it is I mean, it is tricky.

1:41:49.360 --> 1:41:51.759
<v Speaker 2>It's not tricky to read this stuff. It's not tricky

1:41:51.760 --> 1:41:54.280
<v Speaker 2>to come up with your own interpretations. But if you

1:41:54.560 --> 1:42:02.280
<v Speaker 2>were to listen to the Lieutenant governors kind of case

1:42:02.880 --> 1:42:06.439
<v Speaker 2>that she made, she's using all the same cases that

1:42:06.600 --> 1:42:09.559
<v Speaker 2>you would use to say it's legal. She's just using

1:42:11.360 --> 1:42:20.320
<v Speaker 2>different excerpt of those cases and a narrow, narrower interpretation,

1:42:21.000 --> 1:42:24.400
<v Speaker 2>which also is like how the law works a lot

1:42:24.439 --> 1:42:27.479
<v Speaker 2>of times. Right, So I'm not like bad mouth and

1:42:27.560 --> 1:42:31.280
<v Speaker 2>the Lieutenant governor at all, but it is just been very,

1:42:31.400 --> 1:42:32.160
<v Speaker 2>very interesting.

1:42:34.120 --> 1:42:35.400
<v Speaker 1>What do you think will happen?

1:42:36.600 --> 1:42:42.200
<v Speaker 2>Well, ideally we have a legislative session coming up that

1:42:42.280 --> 1:42:46.120
<v Speaker 2>we're going to see some some legislation that comes up

1:42:46.439 --> 1:42:51.240
<v Speaker 2>to clarify this. At a state level, backcountry hunters and

1:42:51.280 --> 1:42:53.240
<v Speaker 2>anglers we entered into a lawsuit with the state of

1:42:53.240 --> 1:42:59.120
<v Speaker 2>Montana after hitting this wall that you know, we were

1:42:59.160 --> 1:43:01.760
<v Speaker 2>just told flat out out said, hey, even if this

1:43:01.840 --> 1:43:06.040
<v Speaker 2>went back to the previous memo where it's like corner

1:43:06.080 --> 1:43:10.320
<v Speaker 2>crossing is a gray area, that's okay for right now

1:43:10.400 --> 1:43:16.760
<v Speaker 2>until we can get legislation through because the people that

1:43:16.880 --> 1:43:19.280
<v Speaker 2>want to do it do it, and the people who

1:43:19.320 --> 1:43:23.160
<v Speaker 2>don't don't. And you know, ranchers don't want to see

1:43:23.160 --> 1:43:25.000
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of people piled up at corners. Hunters don't

1:43:25.000 --> 1:43:26.839
<v Speaker 2>want to see a bunch of people piled up at corners.

1:43:27.080 --> 1:43:30.400
<v Speaker 2>We want this to be quiet. Yeah, is the best

1:43:30.400 --> 1:43:31.240
<v Speaker 2>thing for everybody.

1:43:31.280 --> 1:43:38.040
<v Speaker 1>But if if the state, okay, in Wyoming, you had

1:43:38.080 --> 1:43:42.519
<v Speaker 1>a case where it got moved to federal federal court, yep,

1:43:44.080 --> 1:43:48.639
<v Speaker 1>If the state, if state legislators were to come in

1:43:48.680 --> 1:43:54.320
<v Speaker 1>and say it's illegal, yep, wouldn't that then open a

1:43:54.400 --> 1:44:01.960
<v Speaker 1>pathway for someone to say, you're probi is in violation

1:44:02.040 --> 1:44:04.240
<v Speaker 1>of federal law. And that's a no no.

1:44:05.320 --> 1:44:10.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and yeah, I mean that that is a thing.

1:44:10.320 --> 1:44:15.640
<v Speaker 2>And that's why by and large, we're talking about broad

1:44:16.200 --> 1:44:23.320
<v Speaker 2>acceptance of legal access through the corners. We're talking about

1:44:23.640 --> 1:44:30.280
<v Speaker 2>extremely broad acceptance of if you enter or damage private property,

1:44:30.960 --> 1:44:36.800
<v Speaker 2>that's that's trespass. So there's a ton of middle ground here.

1:44:37.920 --> 1:44:42.559
<v Speaker 2>And I think that we're capable of coming up with

1:44:43.280 --> 1:44:49.919
<v Speaker 2>a state solution that you know, prevents a federal case.

1:44:49.800 --> 1:44:51.000
<v Speaker 1>It prevents an escalation.

1:44:51.160 --> 1:44:53.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And and part of this is is totally out

1:44:53.240 --> 1:44:56.799
<v Speaker 2>of our hands, like that that could happen anyway.

1:44:58.080 --> 1:45:00.280
<v Speaker 1>But you know, it's a question I never thought that.

1:45:00.320 --> 1:45:03.759
<v Speaker 1>I never thought to ask, do you have any sense

1:45:03.920 --> 1:45:06.840
<v Speaker 1>if you went to Wyoming, Let's say there had been

1:45:06.880 --> 1:45:10.120
<v Speaker 1>a ballot initiative yep, and it was just very clear

1:45:10.840 --> 1:45:14.280
<v Speaker 1>and everyone's on everyone's ballot during a presidential election year.

1:45:14.439 --> 1:45:22.000
<v Speaker 1>It just said like corner like, should corner crossing be legal? Yes? No?

1:45:22.720 --> 1:45:27.679
<v Speaker 1>And you put it out to the voters in Wyoming

1:45:27.760 --> 1:45:30.599
<v Speaker 1>before all this happened, What do you think the answer

1:45:30.600 --> 1:45:32.240
<v Speaker 1>would have been? Like?

1:45:32.360 --> 1:45:35.120
<v Speaker 2>Overwhelmingly yes, do you think so? Yeah?

1:45:35.240 --> 1:45:35.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

1:45:35.960 --> 1:45:41.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean you know, TRCP and BHA hosted listening sessions

1:45:41.960 --> 1:45:45.280
<v Speaker 2>across the state. Obviously not everybody shows up to those things. Yeah,

1:45:46.520 --> 1:45:49.200
<v Speaker 2>but I drove over and and sat in on a few,

1:45:50.200 --> 1:45:52.559
<v Speaker 2>and I was really shocked by how few people actually

1:45:52.560 --> 1:45:55.840
<v Speaker 2>wanted to talk about corner crossing because it was just

1:45:55.880 --> 1:45:57.600
<v Speaker 2>like a given. They were like, oh, yeah, this is

1:45:57.640 --> 1:46:01.200
<v Speaker 2>something everybody else is talking about. Uh, it's something we

1:46:01.280 --> 1:46:05.200
<v Speaker 2>do and will continue to do kind of regardless of

1:46:05.240 --> 1:46:11.639
<v Speaker 2>what everybody else comes to the conclusion of. So yeah,

1:46:11.680 --> 1:46:15.360
<v Speaker 2>I And then yeah, I mean there's a long there's

1:46:15.400 --> 1:46:18.559
<v Speaker 2>more paper history of corner crossing in Wyoming than there

1:46:18.600 --> 1:46:23.719
<v Speaker 2>than there isn't in Montana. There's there's a decent amount

1:46:23.720 --> 1:46:29.080
<v Speaker 2>of cases that apply in the state. There's you know,

1:46:29.240 --> 1:46:36.400
<v Speaker 2>no actual you know, anything that's really specifically corner crossing

1:46:36.439 --> 1:46:39.880
<v Speaker 2>in Montana has always been thrown out. It's never made

1:46:39.880 --> 1:46:42.320
<v Speaker 2>it to a judge's decision.

1:46:43.400 --> 1:46:45.880
<v Speaker 1>That that's what that that blows my mind.

1:46:46.400 --> 1:46:48.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for something that's always been illegal.

1:46:48.479 --> 1:46:52.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that there are not people out there sitting in

1:46:53.000 --> 1:46:56.000
<v Speaker 1>jail or whatever who got in trouble for it.

1:46:57.200 --> 1:47:05.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but we do have, you know, several state programs.

1:47:05.320 --> 1:47:07.920
<v Speaker 2>We have a lot of money sitting in the Habitat

1:47:07.920 --> 1:47:10.240
<v Speaker 2>Montana Fund, which was you know, part of the marijuana

1:47:10.360 --> 1:47:14.559
<v Speaker 2>tax money forty one million bucks in counting that has

1:47:14.640 --> 1:47:20.160
<v Speaker 2>to be used for access programs or acquiring land. You know,

1:47:21.840 --> 1:47:24.080
<v Speaker 2>it's a little little broad on what, but it can

1:47:24.120 --> 1:47:28.759
<v Speaker 2>be used for habitat, building boat ramps, acquiring a new ground,

1:47:29.040 --> 1:47:33.360
<v Speaker 2>stuff like that, or else that cash sunsets and it

1:47:33.360 --> 1:47:36.880
<v Speaker 2>can go into the general fund. Some people speculate that

1:47:36.880 --> 1:47:37.960
<v Speaker 2>it's not being used.

1:47:37.760 --> 1:47:40.400
<v Speaker 1>Because they wanted to go into the general to go.

1:47:40.439 --> 1:47:44.080
<v Speaker 2>Into the general fund. But I mean, there's a lot

1:47:44.120 --> 1:47:49.479
<v Speaker 2>of tools in our tool belt that can make this

1:47:50.000 --> 1:47:55.280
<v Speaker 2>a state led initiative. I've talked to a lot of

1:47:55.320 --> 1:48:00.599
<v Speaker 2>folks long before we entered into this lawsuit, and then

1:48:01.439 --> 1:48:05.960
<v Speaker 2>after we've entered into this lawsuit, who are both all

1:48:06.000 --> 1:48:10.920
<v Speaker 2>of them landowners both for and against corner crossing. The

1:48:10.960 --> 1:48:15.479
<v Speaker 2>folks that are against corner crossing and willing to talk

1:48:15.479 --> 1:48:18.280
<v Speaker 2>to me, uh or asking asking me to call them

1:48:18.360 --> 1:48:19.680
<v Speaker 2>more more accurately.

1:48:21.200 --> 1:48:22.599
<v Speaker 1>They do you make those calls?

1:48:22.680 --> 1:48:25.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's awesome. I mean I love talking to old

1:48:25.960 --> 1:48:31.720
<v Speaker 2>rancherws so, but uh, they get fed up with bad

1:48:31.760 --> 1:48:37.080
<v Speaker 2>hunter behavior, which I totally get. And most of them

1:48:37.200 --> 1:48:41.640
<v Speaker 2>have been working for years to do land swaps with

1:48:41.760 --> 1:48:47.519
<v Speaker 2>the BLM and and can't get them through. And you know,

1:48:47.640 --> 1:48:50.040
<v Speaker 2>so that's something that that where we've offered to help.

1:48:51.120 --> 1:48:55.679
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I just just talked with uh one

1:48:55.880 --> 1:48:59.760
<v Speaker 2>one fella just like this and and did some due

1:48:59.760 --> 1:49:02.439
<v Speaker 2>dealer jents on whether or not this was like an

1:49:02.479 --> 1:49:06.200
<v Speaker 2>actual good land swap and it sounds like it really is.

1:49:06.720 --> 1:49:13.839
<v Speaker 2>So we're trying to help accelerate that process. And then

1:49:14.439 --> 1:49:17.760
<v Speaker 2>we have a program where you can identify corners and

1:49:17.800 --> 1:49:20.800
<v Speaker 2>we can come out and mark those so people have

1:49:20.880 --> 1:49:25.280
<v Speaker 2>no excuse this is public, this is private. We can

1:49:25.320 --> 1:49:31.479
<v Speaker 2>augment fence so you can have an access point there that,

1:49:31.880 --> 1:49:34.120
<v Speaker 2>as one old dodger pointed out to me, he's like,

1:49:34.120 --> 1:49:36.559
<v Speaker 2>you know, I get that the lance public, but that

1:49:36.600 --> 1:49:42.880
<v Speaker 2>fence isn't. So we can augment that private fance and

1:49:43.000 --> 1:49:47.959
<v Speaker 2>keep it in good work and shape and allow legal access.

1:49:49.640 --> 1:49:54.879
<v Speaker 2>And then there are these corners typically called problem corners,

1:49:55.439 --> 1:50:01.200
<v Speaker 2>where there's just no way to legally access public to

1:50:01.240 --> 1:50:03.400
<v Speaker 2>public without stepping on private.

1:50:03.600 --> 1:50:07.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like just for people listening, picture that the pictures

1:50:07.200 --> 1:50:11.080
<v Speaker 1>that don't just it's a tree, yep, picture, there's a

1:50:11.280 --> 1:50:14.720
<v Speaker 1>there's a twelve inch tree at the corner, yep, right,

1:50:15.760 --> 1:50:16.680
<v Speaker 1>and you gotta.

1:50:17.320 --> 1:50:18.920
<v Speaker 2>And you're supposed to do the right.

1:50:19.000 --> 1:50:21.280
<v Speaker 1>You wiggle around that tree, you're off where you're not

1:50:21.280 --> 1:50:21.840
<v Speaker 1>supposed to be.

1:50:22.000 --> 1:50:29.280
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, So identifying those and and where the only

1:50:31.200 --> 1:50:34.320
<v Speaker 2>entity of any kind out there, we use r g

1:50:34.439 --> 1:50:36.960
<v Speaker 2>I S on the b h A website so you

1:50:36.960 --> 1:50:39.720
<v Speaker 2>can just punch in your lat long of where that

1:50:39.800 --> 1:50:44.439
<v Speaker 2>corner is. And then we have some surveyors that have

1:50:44.520 --> 1:50:49.120
<v Speaker 2>reached out that do this work professionally, that have offered

1:50:49.160 --> 1:50:52.960
<v Speaker 2>their services to to come out and mark corners. And

1:50:53.000 --> 1:50:55.439
<v Speaker 2>these are folks who have actually like worked with the

1:50:55.479 --> 1:51:00.360
<v Speaker 2>BLM to adjust corners to where they're truly supposed to be, yeah,

1:51:00.439 --> 1:51:03.160
<v Speaker 2>because some of them do migrate over the years because

1:51:03.160 --> 1:51:06.160
<v Speaker 2>they you know, people have moved pins where the pins

1:51:06.240 --> 1:51:10.080
<v Speaker 2>never existed, so they were going off of landmarks and

1:51:10.160 --> 1:51:16.880
<v Speaker 2>those change generationally sometimes. And then you know, we can

1:51:16.920 --> 1:51:20.360
<v Speaker 2>augment that that fence at the same time to wildlife

1:51:20.360 --> 1:51:23.360
<v Speaker 2>friendly fencing and and do it at no cost to

1:51:23.400 --> 1:51:28.720
<v Speaker 2>the landowner. As again kind of like our Stewardship project

1:51:28.840 --> 1:51:32.360
<v Speaker 2>idea is, I'm like, man, if you're fed up with

1:51:32.439 --> 1:51:35.920
<v Speaker 2>bad hunter behavior, I can't say I'm gonna fix all that,

1:51:36.479 --> 1:51:39.000
<v Speaker 2>but I will bring a crew of people out there

1:51:39.240 --> 1:51:42.120
<v Speaker 2>that you're going to be really impressed with that really

1:51:42.160 --> 1:51:44.840
<v Speaker 2>do give a crap, and at minimum, it's going to

1:51:44.880 --> 1:51:46.320
<v Speaker 2>give you a little bit of fuel back in the

1:51:46.360 --> 1:51:50.040
<v Speaker 2>tank that hopefully lasts you until your next bad encounter

1:51:51.240 --> 1:51:55.559
<v Speaker 2>and then which I typically do get a chuckle out

1:51:55.600 --> 1:51:59.960
<v Speaker 2>of that. And then I'm working like hell trying to

1:52:00.240 --> 1:52:05.679
<v Speaker 2>get some funding and some folks together to put together

1:52:05.960 --> 1:52:12.519
<v Speaker 2>a hunting around agriculture program that ideally states will want

1:52:12.560 --> 1:52:18.519
<v Speaker 2>to adopt, because we hear all the time that something's

1:52:18.520 --> 1:52:22.200
<v Speaker 2>got to be done because people don't know how to

1:52:22.240 --> 1:52:26.800
<v Speaker 2>behave around working farms. And ranches anymore, and they're drawn

1:52:26.960 --> 1:52:31.559
<v Speaker 2>like flies to them for hunting purposes. And just the

1:52:31.600 --> 1:52:35.920
<v Speaker 2>basic stuff etiquette, where to park, where not to park,

1:52:36.120 --> 1:52:37.200
<v Speaker 2>how to operate.

1:52:36.880 --> 1:52:40.639
<v Speaker 1>Gates, driving on wet roads you shouldn't be driving on. Yeah,

1:52:40.880 --> 1:52:44.320
<v Speaker 1>driving across freshly planted fields, leaving gates not the way

1:52:44.360 --> 1:52:47.920
<v Speaker 1>you found them, yep, spooking, spooking the hell out of cows.

1:52:48.280 --> 1:52:52.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, recognizing where you got a bunch of colcalf

1:52:52.760 --> 1:52:55.200
<v Speaker 2>pairs that just got moved in from the range. They're

1:52:55.240 --> 1:52:59.439
<v Speaker 2>super scared. Probably just leave it alone. Yeah, you know.

1:53:00.400 --> 1:53:04.160
<v Speaker 2>So not not hard stuff at all, but something that

1:53:05.280 --> 1:53:09.920
<v Speaker 2>everybody is getting direct asks for and it's not being

1:53:10.400 --> 1:53:18.800
<v Speaker 2>addressed unfortunately. And we can put together the program that

1:53:18.960 --> 1:53:23.080
<v Speaker 2>is built off of producer feedback. Right, the farmers and

1:53:23.120 --> 1:53:25.800
<v Speaker 2>the ranchers are then tell us what they want and

1:53:25.840 --> 1:53:30.639
<v Speaker 2>then you know, meat Eater will hopefully distribute that out.

1:53:31.320 --> 1:53:34.559
<v Speaker 2>But we really need states to adopt this as well

1:53:35.160 --> 1:53:39.400
<v Speaker 2>and use it in a fashion where people have to

1:53:39.400 --> 1:53:43.880
<v Speaker 2>pay attention. Right, So I want like, hey, you just

1:53:43.920 --> 1:53:48.519
<v Speaker 2>bought your big Game combo license. In order to complete purchase,

1:53:49.520 --> 1:53:55.080
<v Speaker 2>take this five minute tutorial, right, and and you know

1:53:55.160 --> 1:53:59.760
<v Speaker 2>people want to hunt in these places so bad. I

1:53:59.800 --> 1:54:01.559
<v Speaker 2>don't think that that's going to be a barrier to

1:54:01.720 --> 1:54:04.759
<v Speaker 2>entry at all. Hunters being hunters, we're going to complain,

1:54:05.439 --> 1:54:07.560
<v Speaker 2>but I think we're going to take the test. And

1:54:08.800 --> 1:54:12.200
<v Speaker 2>I really do believe like, if we can just educate

1:54:14.040 --> 1:54:16.960
<v Speaker 2>a big group, right like forty thousand hunters hunting Montana

1:54:16.960 --> 1:54:20.120
<v Speaker 2>every year, if we can educate them a one and

1:54:20.120 --> 1:54:22.920
<v Speaker 2>a half percent more, that's going to be a big

1:54:22.960 --> 1:54:27.719
<v Speaker 2>impact on the landscape. And if we're not working hard

1:54:28.280 --> 1:54:30.760
<v Speaker 2>to kind of hold up our side of the social contract,

1:54:31.640 --> 1:54:35.480
<v Speaker 2>we're going to lose access on the front range and

1:54:36.400 --> 1:54:39.000
<v Speaker 2>everybody's going to be in the back country.

1:54:39.640 --> 1:54:42.880
<v Speaker 1>Man. Yeah, I like a lot of what you're saying.

1:54:44.440 --> 1:54:47.640
<v Speaker 1>I like it really rings true to me, and you know,

1:54:47.680 --> 1:54:53.040
<v Speaker 1>congratulations on viewing it this way. But I appreciate the

1:54:53.080 --> 1:55:01.200
<v Speaker 1>way you're willing to acknowledge and take responsibility for ways

1:55:01.240 --> 1:55:04.920
<v Speaker 1>that your own community could be working against their own

1:55:05.040 --> 1:55:12.200
<v Speaker 1>better interests. Meaning, you know, let's talk about bad hunter behavior.

1:55:13.080 --> 1:55:16.080
<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about people kind of exploiting this corner crossing

1:55:16.160 --> 1:55:18.280
<v Speaker 1>thing to feel that they can just get on that

1:55:18.400 --> 1:55:21.360
<v Speaker 1>land however they want to get on it right, and

1:55:21.440 --> 1:55:23.720
<v Speaker 1>kind of holding your own community up to like a

1:55:23.760 --> 1:55:27.480
<v Speaker 1>certain standard and acknowledging the people that are offended by

1:55:27.520 --> 1:55:31.360
<v Speaker 1>bad behavior that yes, this is true, what you're seeing

1:55:31.440 --> 1:55:34.560
<v Speaker 1>is true. I want to make that go away, right.

1:55:35.640 --> 1:55:37.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean what other choice do we have too.

1:55:37.680 --> 1:55:42.360
<v Speaker 1>Right, well, just just ignore it, yeah, ignore it and

1:55:42.440 --> 1:55:43.640
<v Speaker 1>let the tensions faster.

1:55:43.920 --> 1:55:48.640
<v Speaker 2>Let the tensions faster. And then what everybody's feeling, the

1:55:48.680 --> 1:55:54.680
<v Speaker 2>state agencies, the agricultural producers, the hunters in areas where

1:55:54.720 --> 1:55:59.600
<v Speaker 2>we're seeing this really big increase in hunting pressure and

1:55:59.640 --> 1:56:04.040
<v Speaker 2>demand and on the resource is like that scarcity mindset

1:56:04.400 --> 1:56:09.360
<v Speaker 2>creeps in and it's like I don't care. I gotta

1:56:09.400 --> 1:56:14.760
<v Speaker 2>get mine before somebody else does, right versus you know

1:56:15.040 --> 1:56:17.839
<v Speaker 2>so many times, you know, I had great hunting mentors

1:56:19.280 --> 1:56:25.640
<v Speaker 2>growing up, and really it was like, oh, well, Pard,

1:56:25.760 --> 1:56:28.040
<v Speaker 2>let's leave that one for another day. Somebody else is

1:56:28.040 --> 1:56:32.000
<v Speaker 2>already on it type of thing, right, And looking back

1:56:32.640 --> 1:56:37.400
<v Speaker 2>at those scenarios then, like it'd be hard to talk

1:56:37.480 --> 1:56:40.720
<v Speaker 2>some people into being like, well, there's only one truck

1:56:40.720 --> 1:56:44.120
<v Speaker 2>at the trailhead, why wouldn't we go type of thing, right,

1:56:44.520 --> 1:56:46.640
<v Speaker 2>It's like, well, somebody beat us to it, let them

1:56:46.680 --> 1:56:48.360
<v Speaker 2>have it. We'll go down to the next trailhead.

1:56:48.760 --> 1:56:51.720
<v Speaker 1>You know, what do you imagine We've talked about a

1:56:51.720 --> 1:56:55.680
<v Speaker 1>bunch of things that are in the news now being

1:56:55.720 --> 1:57:00.680
<v Speaker 1>talked about right now, kind of hot, hot button issues

1:57:00.800 --> 1:57:06.200
<v Speaker 1>right that are on everybody's mind. What if we're having

1:57:06.200 --> 1:57:08.880
<v Speaker 1>this conversation a year from now or this conversation two

1:57:08.960 --> 1:57:11.160
<v Speaker 1>years from now, what do you think, what do you

1:57:11.160 --> 1:57:13.640
<v Speaker 1>think we'll be talking about, Like, what do you see

1:57:13.720 --> 1:57:16.760
<v Speaker 1>kind of lurking that's going to be jumping into the

1:57:17.280 --> 1:57:18.840
<v Speaker 1>that's going to be jumping to the front of the

1:57:18.880 --> 1:57:21.320
<v Speaker 1>line in terms of hot button issues.

1:57:22.560 --> 1:57:26.200
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think there's just two broad themes that are possible, right,

1:57:26.240 --> 1:57:29.080
<v Speaker 2>And it's kind of like what you said about like

1:57:30.480 --> 1:57:33.320
<v Speaker 2>being the no no no. I'm just in the no guy.

1:57:33.880 --> 1:57:36.280
<v Speaker 2>I point out the things that that's wrong, and the

1:57:36.280 --> 1:57:40.680
<v Speaker 2>solution I don't want any part of that person is

1:57:40.720 --> 1:57:46.120
<v Speaker 2>real and they exist. And if everybody turns into that person,

1:57:46.320 --> 1:57:48.960
<v Speaker 2>or the majority of us turned into that person who

1:57:48.960 --> 1:57:51.760
<v Speaker 2>are like I don't want the hard work of being

1:57:51.800 --> 1:57:54.920
<v Speaker 2>at the table. I just want to sit back and

1:57:55.040 --> 1:57:57.560
<v Speaker 2>throw stones and tell you what's wrong. As I see it,

1:57:59.800 --> 1:58:02.400
<v Speaker 2>that it's very possible that there's a bunch of those

1:58:02.440 --> 1:58:06.640
<v Speaker 2>people who go Holy cow. I wish I would have

1:58:06.680 --> 1:58:09.480
<v Speaker 2>drugged myself to the table, because I never ever thought

1:58:10.240 --> 1:58:14.480
<v Speaker 2>the end result would be something like this God or

1:58:14.560 --> 1:58:17.840
<v Speaker 2>there's the opposite of like I dropped a bunch of

1:58:17.840 --> 1:58:25.640
<v Speaker 2>partisan bs. I really focused on the things that I

1:58:26.240 --> 1:58:30.400
<v Speaker 2>really value and I know I want other people to

1:58:30.400 --> 1:58:34.680
<v Speaker 2>see because they will value it as well. And I kicked, screamed,

1:58:34.720 --> 1:58:38.080
<v Speaker 2>claud drug myself to the table. And I was consistent

1:58:39.240 --> 1:58:43.040
<v Speaker 2>until like we turned the tide and people saw the

1:58:43.040 --> 1:58:46.440
<v Speaker 2>middle ground. Because what I'm seeing, and there's all sorts

1:58:46.440 --> 1:58:48.400
<v Speaker 2>of people who get ticked me for this is like

1:58:49.600 --> 1:58:51.640
<v Speaker 2>I do see a lot of people. There's some people

1:58:51.680 --> 1:58:53.760
<v Speaker 2>who just want their thing and they don't care about anything.

1:58:54.120 --> 1:58:57.600
<v Speaker 2>But I do see a lot of people who really

1:58:57.640 --> 1:58:59.560
<v Speaker 2>want to do the right thing, and they're just grossly

1:58:59.600 --> 1:59:06.000
<v Speaker 2>missing for And it takes big moments right now, like

1:59:06.040 --> 1:59:08.880
<v Speaker 2>we saw during the public land sell off budget reconciliation,

1:59:09.280 --> 1:59:12.600
<v Speaker 2>where it was just like every user group was getting

1:59:12.600 --> 1:59:16.040
<v Speaker 2>to the table and coming together and being like, yes,

1:59:16.480 --> 1:59:19.120
<v Speaker 2>this is valuable, we want this, we don't want it

1:59:19.160 --> 1:59:23.920
<v Speaker 2>to go away, how dare you sell it? And being

1:59:23.960 --> 1:59:29.440
<v Speaker 2>engaged even in the minutia in broad coalitions are the

1:59:29.480 --> 1:59:32.120
<v Speaker 2>things that's going to turn this thing around.

1:59:32.200 --> 1:59:32.400
<v Speaker 1>Right.

1:59:32.600 --> 1:59:36.400
<v Speaker 2>So that example, and I know I'm kind of beating

1:59:36.440 --> 1:59:40.200
<v Speaker 2>it to death here, is like I can talk about

1:59:41.600 --> 1:59:44.840
<v Speaker 2>motorized groups all day, and I know there's tons and

1:59:44.880 --> 1:59:47.960
<v Speaker 2>tons of good representatives out there. But the thing that's

1:59:48.000 --> 1:59:51.040
<v Speaker 2>going to turn the tide for motorized groups to be like, oh, hey,

1:59:51.240 --> 1:59:56.880
<v Speaker 2>travel managements plans are in place, practice responsible use, ride responsibly.

1:59:57.320 --> 2:00:04.000
<v Speaker 2>Are people within the motorized community saying, hey, I want

2:00:04.280 --> 2:00:09.760
<v Speaker 2>this cross country moto experience that we do every year

2:00:10.360 --> 2:00:15.080
<v Speaker 2>because of the fact that it's pristine and the solitude

2:00:15.080 --> 2:00:17.760
<v Speaker 2>and the gorgeous views and all this and the limited

2:00:17.880 --> 2:00:21.240
<v Speaker 2>use it gets. I don't want to turn this experience

2:00:21.400 --> 2:00:27.960
<v Speaker 2>into that true you're sand Dun experience, or like there's

2:00:28.000 --> 2:00:31.520
<v Speaker 2>this event every year called King of the Hammers where

2:00:31.560 --> 2:00:33.600
<v Speaker 2>it's like, you know, you get to really show off

2:00:33.720 --> 2:00:37.480
<v Speaker 2>what you can do on off road no road. It's

2:00:37.520 --> 2:00:40.640
<v Speaker 2>like that stuff can exist and this stuff can exist,

2:00:41.200 --> 2:00:43.800
<v Speaker 2>and because we like both doesn't mean we have to

2:00:43.800 --> 2:00:51.720
<v Speaker 2>turn this into that, right. So but again, like I

2:00:51.760 --> 2:00:54.680
<v Speaker 2>think a good step is acknowledging like, even though I

2:00:54.720 --> 2:00:57.480
<v Speaker 2>am not a representative of the motorized community, I drive

2:00:57.520 --> 2:01:00.640
<v Speaker 2>a four wheel drive truck to every trailhead, right, and

2:01:00.680 --> 2:01:05.160
<v Speaker 2>some of those roads are really long, you're real bumpy, right,

2:01:05.640 --> 2:01:09.280
<v Speaker 2>But that that is my I don't know my vector

2:01:09.520 --> 2:01:13.440
<v Speaker 2>for backcountry travel for the human powered stuff too.

2:01:13.600 --> 2:01:16.040
<v Speaker 1>So what else has come? What other kind of issues

2:01:16.040 --> 2:01:18.280
<v Speaker 1>are coming down? You're you're catching wind of.

2:01:20.080 --> 2:01:28.040
<v Speaker 2>I am very concerned about Ambler Road that seems to

2:01:28.040 --> 2:01:33.680
<v Speaker 2>be making progress. There's a lot of a lot of

2:01:33.720 --> 2:01:36.160
<v Speaker 2>the typical things that we've been seeing. We're like big

2:01:36.200 --> 2:01:39.600
<v Speaker 2>broad statements of like everybody in Alaska is for this,

2:01:40.600 --> 2:01:45.360
<v Speaker 2>all the Alaska tribes are for this, all the communities.

2:01:45.760 --> 2:01:49.080
<v Speaker 2>You know, I have a lot of calls every week

2:01:49.400 --> 2:01:54.560
<v Speaker 2>from guide outfitter communities saying like I don't care if

2:01:54.600 --> 2:01:56.160
<v Speaker 2>they say this road is not public.

2:01:56.680 --> 2:01:57.520
<v Speaker 1>It is going.

2:01:57.440 --> 2:02:06.400
<v Speaker 2>To create a huge impact on you know, caribou, moose trapping,

2:02:06.720 --> 2:02:14.520
<v Speaker 2>all all the things, the fisheries components. And and then

2:02:14.520 --> 2:02:17.200
<v Speaker 2>there's the side of like that road's not supposed to

2:02:17.200 --> 2:02:20.560
<v Speaker 2>be for us, it's a hall road, they're super dangerous.

2:02:20.560 --> 2:02:23.480
<v Speaker 2>People aren't going out there. Why is public? Why are

2:02:23.520 --> 2:02:26.320
<v Speaker 2>our public dollars being spent on this thing that the

2:02:26.360 --> 2:02:32.880
<v Speaker 2>public isn't going to use? And then there there's just

2:02:32.920 --> 2:02:36.640
<v Speaker 2>like all the like the real biological science things there,

2:02:36.720 --> 2:02:39.320
<v Speaker 2>and the fact that like I don't care what type

2:02:39.360 --> 2:02:41.320
<v Speaker 2>of mitigation we do out there, like it is not

2:02:41.400 --> 2:02:45.440
<v Speaker 2>coming back. That scars there forever, right, Like you fly

2:02:45.600 --> 2:02:51.480
<v Speaker 2>over the Arctic, the coastal plane up there and where

2:02:51.520 --> 2:02:54.720
<v Speaker 2>they were doing that seismic testing like in the seventies,

2:02:55.560 --> 2:02:57.960
<v Speaker 2>Like those wheel wheel routes are still there, you know.

2:02:58.400 --> 2:03:01.960
<v Speaker 2>And it's I think we're big enough to say, like

2:03:02.800 --> 2:03:07.200
<v Speaker 2>we have to have some car bouts for what always

2:03:07.280 --> 2:03:12.640
<v Speaker 2>has been and can always be, and like having that baseline,

2:03:12.680 --> 2:03:18.000
<v Speaker 2>that through line should be again of national importance to Americans.

2:03:18.080 --> 2:03:21.919
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think we remain I think our country remains

2:03:22.000 --> 2:03:26.840
<v Speaker 1>in a strong enough position where we can continue to

2:03:26.960 --> 2:03:33.200
<v Speaker 1>afford to have wild places in this country. You know. Oh,

2:03:33.360 --> 2:03:36.839
<v Speaker 1>We're in a strong enough position where we can continue

2:03:36.840 --> 2:03:40.400
<v Speaker 1>to invest in that and practice restraint and some of

2:03:40.400 --> 2:03:44.040
<v Speaker 1>our biggest contiguous pieces of wilderness. And by saying that,

2:03:44.080 --> 2:03:45.800
<v Speaker 1>what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to recognize

2:03:45.800 --> 2:03:49.560
<v Speaker 1>it like that stuffs a luxury. It's there because we

2:03:49.680 --> 2:03:53.600
<v Speaker 1>decided to let it be there, and we have restrained

2:03:53.600 --> 2:03:56.120
<v Speaker 1>ourselves from certain activities. And that's why we have it.

2:03:56.720 --> 2:03:58.800
<v Speaker 1>Like you look at for a long time, we had

2:03:58.840 --> 2:04:02.920
<v Speaker 1>wilderness because we hadn't wilderness wild places. Wildlife was there

2:04:02.920 --> 2:04:06.440
<v Speaker 1>because we hadn't gotten around to destroying it yet. And

2:04:06.440 --> 2:04:09.440
<v Speaker 1>then there's a switch, yep, and we crossed like this

2:04:09.720 --> 2:04:12.760
<v Speaker 1>threshold and it became it's around because we choose it

2:04:12.800 --> 2:04:13.720
<v Speaker 1>to be around.

2:04:13.920 --> 2:04:17.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean, And that's what every single person needs to understand, Like,

2:04:17.280 --> 2:04:20.680
<v Speaker 2>none of this is luck, right, It is all here

2:04:20.720 --> 2:04:25.160
<v Speaker 2>because people before us made real choices, sometimes very unpopular,

2:04:26.160 --> 2:04:29.160
<v Speaker 2>and that is why we have the luxuries that we have,

2:04:29.840 --> 2:04:34.800
<v Speaker 2>being able to float fish, you know, camp on public lands,

2:04:34.880 --> 2:04:39.080
<v Speaker 2>hunt game and take it home like that is an

2:04:39.080 --> 2:04:44.080
<v Speaker 2>absolute luxury. And you know, the world is full of

2:04:44.200 --> 2:04:48.360
<v Speaker 2>examples of places that went the opposite way, right, And

2:04:48.400 --> 2:04:54.160
<v Speaker 2>it's like I definitely like picking and choosing there, right,

2:04:54.200 --> 2:04:57.360
<v Speaker 2>But like if you look at Australia and the battles

2:04:57.360 --> 2:05:01.960
<v Speaker 2>that they've had just to have egal regulated hunting in

2:05:02.040 --> 2:05:08.920
<v Speaker 2>that country, because it's like it just got social, got

2:05:08.960 --> 2:05:11.760
<v Speaker 2>turned in such a way to where so few people

2:05:11.800 --> 2:05:14.520
<v Speaker 2>did it. What did it matter? Gun rights in the

2:05:14.600 --> 2:05:19.720
<v Speaker 2>UK few so few people, What doesn't matter? Right access

2:05:19.760 --> 2:05:22.360
<v Speaker 2>to wildlife in the UK for the purposes of hunting.

2:05:22.800 --> 2:05:25.560
<v Speaker 2>You know, it was always this thing that was for

2:05:25.640 --> 2:05:29.920
<v Speaker 2>somebody else and it was very exclusive. So what does

2:05:29.960 --> 2:05:34.560
<v Speaker 2>it really matter? Right, And you know, for the folks

2:05:34.600 --> 2:05:37.320
<v Speaker 2>who are on the private side of the fence, and

2:05:37.440 --> 2:05:40.920
<v Speaker 2>they might be thinking this another public lands conversation, what

2:05:41.080 --> 2:05:44.840
<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter. It's like, well, maybe not too much to

2:05:44.880 --> 2:05:47.560
<v Speaker 2>you right now, but if you just look at the

2:05:47.600 --> 2:05:51.960
<v Speaker 2>history of every other place on this planet, it's coming

2:05:52.000 --> 2:05:56.840
<v Speaker 2>for you. So you better you better keep other folks involved,

2:05:57.440 --> 2:06:00.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, have a little equitable access to while places

2:06:00.680 --> 2:06:04.080
<v Speaker 2>and wild things, or else it's going to cross the

2:06:04.080 --> 2:06:04.880
<v Speaker 2>fence and get you too.

2:06:06.000 --> 2:06:11.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. You see that expressed, like in the case of

2:06:12.120 --> 2:06:16.680
<v Speaker 1>Washington State. I've seen it expressed where people actually say

2:06:16.960 --> 2:06:22.800
<v Speaker 1>they'll point out so few people engage in spring bear

2:06:22.880 --> 2:06:26.560
<v Speaker 1>hunting they shouldn't even be allowed to where it's like

2:06:27.400 --> 2:06:30.560
<v Speaker 1>that they pointed out yep, you know, yep.

2:06:31.480 --> 2:06:34.920
<v Speaker 2>And I always this is all of extra active use.

2:06:35.000 --> 2:06:36.960
<v Speaker 2>But you know, we come up with fun arguments, right.

2:06:37.000 --> 2:06:42.400
<v Speaker 2>It's like, by and large we all agree that sex

2:06:42.480 --> 2:06:44.680
<v Speaker 2>is a good thing, Like we need to have sex.

2:06:45.280 --> 2:06:48.320
<v Speaker 2>It's how people are on the planet, it's how we reproduce.

2:06:48.960 --> 2:06:52.000
<v Speaker 2>It's just an accepted thing. At the exact same time,

2:06:53.440 --> 2:07:00.400
<v Speaker 2>we all kind of agree that sex shouldn't happen wherever, whenever. Right,

2:07:00.560 --> 2:07:03.560
<v Speaker 2>It's just like socially we're like, yeah, not on the

2:07:03.600 --> 2:07:04.240
<v Speaker 2>city bus.

2:07:04.720 --> 2:07:09.480
<v Speaker 1>You know, we're open to nuance when it comes to sex. Yeah,

2:07:09.600 --> 2:07:11.120
<v Speaker 1>we take a nuanced approach.

2:07:11.680 --> 2:07:14.440
<v Speaker 2>But when it comes to like in the case of

2:07:14.480 --> 2:07:17.720
<v Speaker 2>the boundary waters, right, by god, we need copper, we

2:07:17.760 --> 2:07:21.360
<v Speaker 2>need mineral extraction. Like you're either for it or you're

2:07:21.400 --> 2:07:21.880
<v Speaker 2>against it.

2:07:22.040 --> 2:07:22.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

2:07:22.880 --> 2:07:27.720
<v Speaker 2>I was like, well no, not necessarily. It's like, yeah,

2:07:27.880 --> 2:07:31.800
<v Speaker 2>I am a consumer of goods, but you're telling me

2:07:31.880 --> 2:07:38.000
<v Speaker 2>that I have to blanket before this type of operation

2:07:38.240 --> 2:07:39.960
<v Speaker 2>in all landscapes at all times.

2:07:39.960 --> 2:07:45.280
<v Speaker 1>I gotta support sex in the airport, right, Yeah, to

2:07:45.360 --> 2:07:50.760
<v Speaker 1>remain consistent. Yeah. Yeah, you tell people how to tell

2:07:50.800 --> 2:07:54.120
<v Speaker 1>people how to get involved with BHA and like, and

2:07:54.240 --> 2:07:58.040
<v Speaker 1>what you need most? You guys want members I'm sure,

2:07:58.080 --> 2:07:59.360
<v Speaker 1>But what do you guys need most?

2:07:59.640 --> 2:08:03.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean membership is the absolute life blood, right Like,

2:08:03.360 --> 2:08:10.720
<v Speaker 2>if if you want an independent organization, membership is the key, right, Like,

2:08:11.640 --> 2:08:16.640
<v Speaker 2>if you don't want to be beholden to the changing tides,

2:08:16.880 --> 2:08:19.720
<v Speaker 2>a membership organization is a really nice thing to be

2:08:19.760 --> 2:08:23.640
<v Speaker 2>a part of because those membership dollars give you that independence,

2:08:25.680 --> 2:08:31.240
<v Speaker 2>meaning that you're not subject to giant government grants and

2:08:31.360 --> 2:08:34.680
<v Speaker 2>you may hold off on certain programs.

2:08:37.000 --> 2:08:38.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah you don't. You're not. You don't need to curry

2:08:38.720 --> 2:08:42.040
<v Speaker 1>political favor favorite at all times. And also your whole

2:08:42.080 --> 2:08:45.560
<v Speaker 1>program doesn't get shut down when when a grant doesn't

2:08:45.560 --> 2:08:45.920
<v Speaker 1>come through.

2:08:46.120 --> 2:08:50.360
<v Speaker 2>Yep. Yeah, So members membership is huge, and and that's

2:08:50.480 --> 2:08:54.800
<v Speaker 2>that's really my biggest ask. I'm so the reason that

2:08:55.160 --> 2:08:57.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm in this position is because I have always just

2:08:57.960 --> 2:09:01.720
<v Speaker 2>been so blown away by the rank and file member

2:09:01.840 --> 2:09:08.160
<v Speaker 2>of the organization and how impressive BHA members are because

2:09:08.400 --> 2:09:13.160
<v Speaker 2>they are there to be proactive and do something. And

2:09:13.240 --> 2:09:16.400
<v Speaker 2>at this point, having been around the organization for ten years,

2:09:16.880 --> 2:09:23.880
<v Speaker 2>we have members that are in the Senate, in Congress.

2:09:24.960 --> 2:09:29.560
<v Speaker 2>They are fish and Game commissioners in many states. They

2:09:30.440 --> 2:09:35.640
<v Speaker 2>are community leaders for stewardship projects, water keepers. They're out

2:09:35.800 --> 2:09:39.960
<v Speaker 2>really doing good work. And they literally started because they

2:09:40.000 --> 2:09:43.880
<v Speaker 2>showed up at a pint night, very low barrier to entry,

2:09:44.840 --> 2:09:48.000
<v Speaker 2>have a beer, talk about conservation. Here's a couple of

2:09:48.000 --> 2:09:52.360
<v Speaker 2>the issues that we're working on. And you know, we

2:09:52.400 --> 2:09:53.880
<v Speaker 2>got the people in the door and they were like,

2:09:53.920 --> 2:09:57.320
<v Speaker 2>oh my god, I'm not just a fundraiser. I'm a doer.

2:09:57.480 --> 2:10:00.320
<v Speaker 2>I want to go out and do stuff and and

2:10:00.920 --> 2:10:04.320
<v Speaker 2>those are the that's what we want, we want to

2:10:04.360 --> 2:10:08.040
<v Speaker 2>make more of and we want to enable and empower

2:10:08.120 --> 2:10:12.400
<v Speaker 2>those people to step up and represent at that commission meeting.

2:10:12.520 --> 2:10:16.040
<v Speaker 2>Or go pull a couple miles of fence that benefits

2:10:16.520 --> 2:10:22.960
<v Speaker 2>thirty thousand miles in a migration corridor, and we can

2:10:23.040 --> 2:10:26.600
<v Speaker 2>give you the straight dope, the non partisan dope on

2:10:26.680 --> 2:10:33.040
<v Speaker 2>what's happening. And really we need to get to this

2:10:33.120 --> 2:10:41.200
<v Speaker 2>point where we're really providing the proactive legislation, right, like

2:10:41.240 --> 2:10:47.360
<v Speaker 2>the proactive policy that prevents some of these things from

2:10:47.400 --> 2:10:51.640
<v Speaker 2>being political footballs. So lots of ways to be involved,

2:10:52.080 --> 2:10:54.200
<v Speaker 2>will give you the tools to do it, and you'll

2:10:54.240 --> 2:10:58.360
<v Speaker 2>be a part of an awesome community, and the ripple

2:10:58.400 --> 2:11:01.120
<v Speaker 2>effects of that community are going to turn everybody into

2:11:01.160 --> 2:11:04.879
<v Speaker 2>stewards from this this tall on a ideal.

2:11:04.960 --> 2:11:07.000
<v Speaker 1>So I don't get to see as much now and

2:11:07.080 --> 2:11:08.920
<v Speaker 1>I don't get to have as many laughs with you,

2:11:10.600 --> 2:11:13.920
<v Speaker 1>but man, I'm glad you're in that. I'm glad you're

2:11:13.960 --> 2:11:16.640
<v Speaker 1>in that role. Man. I think it's great. Oh thanks

2:11:16.680 --> 2:11:18.520
<v Speaker 1>to you over there. Thank you.

2:11:18.600 --> 2:11:21.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean it's it's consuming. And now with the

2:11:22.200 --> 2:11:29.280
<v Speaker 2>little nipper at the house, it's, uh, it's more powerful

2:11:30.160 --> 2:11:32.280
<v Speaker 2>in a lot of ways because I'm like, oh man,

2:11:32.320 --> 2:11:36.520
<v Speaker 2>I all the talking ad nauseum about like doing this

2:11:36.560 --> 2:11:39.600
<v Speaker 2>for my kid certainly is a little more impactful.

2:11:39.840 --> 2:11:41.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, sure, yeah. Uh.

2:11:41.800 --> 2:11:46.720
<v Speaker 2>And I'm like, I'm like, can I get he's you know,

2:11:46.960 --> 2:11:50.480
<v Speaker 2>almost four weeks old? Now can I get this guy

2:11:50.680 --> 2:11:57.720
<v Speaker 2>up to the Arctic in August? Like, is it like

2:11:57.800 --> 2:11:59.720
<v Speaker 2>he's gonna be able to see something? Right?

2:11:59.880 --> 2:12:02.400
<v Speaker 1>I remember, all, yeah, I remember all those I find

2:12:02.440 --> 2:12:06.680
<v Speaker 1>that it's generally you can generally get a you can

2:12:06.720 --> 2:12:09.320
<v Speaker 1>generally pull off more than most people think you can

2:12:09.360 --> 2:12:12.080
<v Speaker 1>pull off. But I also have my ass handed to

2:12:12.120 --> 2:12:14.640
<v Speaker 1>me a couple of times taking kids to do stuff.

2:12:14.640 --> 2:12:18.320
<v Speaker 1>You'll figure it out, all right, ladies and gentlemen again,

2:12:18.480 --> 2:12:23.480
<v Speaker 1>Ryan Callahan, chief executive officer at Backcountry Hunters and Anglers,

2:12:23.520 --> 2:12:27.320
<v Speaker 1>a membership based organization. You can just go to BHA dot.

2:12:27.160 --> 2:12:29.400
<v Speaker 2>Org, Backcountry Hunters dot org.

2:12:29.880 --> 2:12:33.200
<v Speaker 1>Oh sorry, backcountry hunters dot org see what they're up to.

2:12:33.200 --> 2:12:36.400
<v Speaker 1>You can sign up for I find them quite helpfully,

2:12:36.440 --> 2:12:39.680
<v Speaker 1>and sign up for email. Keep your prize on stuff.

2:12:39.720 --> 2:12:42.600
<v Speaker 1>You'll get like Cal's take on things and other issues

2:12:43.440 --> 2:12:45.880
<v Speaker 1>and stay educated on what's going on, follow along and

2:12:46.280 --> 2:12:50.560
<v Speaker 1>hopefully hopefully find it a need to support the organization,

2:12:50.640 --> 2:12:51.800
<v Speaker 1>support the great work they do.

2:12:51.880 --> 2:12:56.800
<v Speaker 2>Thanks Cal, and the action alerts well will you'll get

2:12:56.800 --> 2:13:01.080
<v Speaker 2>the information. Hit the action alert. It puts you directly

2:13:01.080 --> 2:13:06.320
<v Speaker 2>in touch with your representative or member and it's just

2:13:06.360 --> 2:13:10.640
<v Speaker 2>makes it easy. You can use the form letter, but

2:13:10.680 --> 2:13:13.080
<v Speaker 2>we want you to do it on your own, so

2:13:13.280 --> 2:13:15.720
<v Speaker 2>use the info. Say where you're from and what you

2:13:15.760 --> 2:13:24.760
<v Speaker 2>want review. Oh my god, Cal's wee can review. Lots

2:13:24.760 --> 2:13:27.480
<v Speaker 2>of good info there and it's it's.

2:13:27.440 --> 2:13:29.560
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I'm looking at you like I'm looking at you

2:13:29.600 --> 2:13:32.680
<v Speaker 1>totally like the the b h A CEO right now.

2:13:32.800 --> 2:13:35.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, man, life's not worth doing if you're just doing

2:13:35.760 --> 2:13:37.400
<v Speaker 2>one thing. You to spend those plates.

2:13:37.640 --> 2:13:41.720
<v Speaker 1>Also here Cal's hot take on everything conservation related. Gets

2:13:41.760 --> 2:13:43.640
<v Speaker 1>and also get some of those laughs I was talking

2:13:43.680 --> 2:13:47.000
<v Speaker 1>about by tuning in Cal's week in review right here

2:13:47.040 --> 2:13:55.400
<v Speaker 1>on the Meat Eater Podcast Network. Thanks man, Thank you