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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to step

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Speaker 1: I've never told your production of I Heeart Radio. Okay, y'all,

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Speaker 1: just at the very beginning of this episode. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: if you've read the title, you kind of already know,

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Speaker 1: but I just want to give a heads up of

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Speaker 1: content warning here. I know when it comes to fertility, pregnancy,

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Speaker 1: and any of the such, this topic can get really

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Speaker 1: controversial as well as can be really sensitive. So if

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Speaker 1: you're not in a good place to talk about the

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Speaker 1: ins and outs of surgacy or the small bits of

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Speaker 1: surgacy that we are learning about, I guess you may

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Speaker 1: want to skip this one because, like I said, I know,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to conversations about pregnancy or loss of pregnancy,

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Speaker 1: it hurts. So go ahead and put this at the

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Speaker 1: very top, move on through, listen to the next one.

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Speaker 1: It might be more fun. It might be going to

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Speaker 1: what you choose to bet. Yeah, you never know. With us,

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Speaker 1: we know this. So when it comes to surrogacy in

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Speaker 1: the world of surrogates, I'm gonna be really honest. I

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Speaker 1: know very little about it. I will say the things

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Speaker 1: that I know. More So, when it comes to children

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Speaker 1: and having children, it pertains to adoption foster care, and

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Speaker 1: that's a whole other episode we're gonna talking about one

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Speaker 1: day because it's a lot of ins and out. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of controversy coming out of that, which has

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Speaker 1: always been so, but there's more light on it today

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Speaker 1: and I'm glad to see it. But when it comes

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Speaker 1: to surregacy, I don't know much. And after having a

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Speaker 1: couple of conversations about the option of surgacy and the

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Speaker 1: details behind it, I became curious. Uh. I do know

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Speaker 1: some people and some friends who have either gone through

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Speaker 1: it or talking about it as an option, and I've

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Speaker 1: never really contemplated what that would look like, and so

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Speaker 1: I got a little curious. I was like, any have

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Speaker 1: we talked about this? Because we need to talk about this,

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Speaker 1: And because of that, you wanted to discuss some of

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Speaker 1: the conversations, statistics and even the controversy is surrounding the topic,

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot more than I thought. I guess

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Speaker 1: I should have known because I'm not in that world.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot And to put this at the top,

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Speaker 1: the opinions and information of surgacy seems pretty heavily biased,

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Speaker 1: to the point that a majority of the information is

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Speaker 1: trying to either persuade you to consider this as a

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Speaker 1: commercial option and we'll talk about that, or dissuade you

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Speaker 1: in order to promote adoption or preservation of heritage. And

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Speaker 1: we're not gonna talk too much about what that means,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, it's it should put a red flag for

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Speaker 1: you just hearing that term heritage to me, And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think again when it comes down to it, the

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Speaker 1: organization in itself, we don't really talk about the surrogacy agencies,

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Speaker 1: but it seems to be a multibillion dollar thing as well,

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Speaker 1: So keep that in the back of your head. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just like you, Samantha, this was I was familiar with

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Speaker 1: the subject and as I told you, when I was younger,

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Speaker 1: I offer to potentially be a surrogate for a friend

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Speaker 1: of mine. I didn't go much beyond like we talked

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Speaker 1: about it, but I didn't get much beyond that. So

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Speaker 1: this is a lot of new information for me as well.

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Speaker 1: And this option in being able to use a surrogate,

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Speaker 1: whether commercially commercial surrogate or an altruistic surrogate, is fairly

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Speaker 1: new and in some states still considered illegal. And because

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Speaker 1: of this, the standards do vary from each state, which

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Speaker 1: seems fairly similar to that the standards of abortion not

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Speaker 1: just as morally objected to, though again it is still

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Speaker 1: somewhat morally judged, just not at the same level that

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Speaker 1: abortion is right. And so with that we are learning.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna go ahead and put this here where

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Speaker 1: we are learning with you. And just because we may

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Speaker 1: say a statement or let you know of a statistic

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Speaker 1: or an opinion, that doesn't mean that's our opinion necessarily.

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Speaker 1: We're just trying to kind of even out what's being said,

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Speaker 1: because again, this is the things that you get hit

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Speaker 1: with and as we've talked about before, where it comes

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Speaker 1: to stati sticks, when it comes to theories, a lot

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Speaker 1: of it is biased no matter what, and trying to

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Speaker 1: get down to the nitty gritty, very limited, very limited,

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Speaker 1: And like I said, you have a lot of options

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Speaker 1: out there when you google it, but when you see

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Speaker 1: where it comes from, you're like, oh okay, m yeah yeah.

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Speaker 1: And as always, if there are listeners out there that

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Speaker 1: can illuminate this topic, we would absolutely love to hear

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Speaker 1: from you. But what you just did, Savantha, felt very

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Speaker 1: much like when you start to watch a DVD and

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Speaker 1: there's that note that's like, please be aware the comments.

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Speaker 1: It's not necessarily reflect right, our opinions. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: like other people's twitters, like retweeted endorsement, same thing, same thing,

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Speaker 1: the same thing. All right, So before we start, let's

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Speaker 1: do some definitions. So for surrogacy, as to find in

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Speaker 1: Mirriam Webster, it is practice of serving as a surrogate mother.

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Speaker 1: According to surrogate dot com, it is the practice by

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Speaker 1: which a woman becomes pregnant and gives birth to a

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Speaker 1: baby in order to give it to someone who cannot

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Speaker 1: have children. And within those definitions are several types of surrogacy,

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Speaker 1: including traditional. This type of surrogacy is when the curroguits

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Speaker 1: egg is used, which makes the surroguit the biological mother.

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Speaker 1: There's gestational and this is when the circuit has no

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Speaker 1: biological link to the baby. And then there is commercial.

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Speaker 1: This is referring to a surrogacy arrangement where the surrogate

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Speaker 1: is compensated for service beyond just the medical cost. And

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Speaker 1: this type is typically the most controversial correct um. And

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Speaker 1: then there's altruistic or I've also seen it as stated

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Speaker 1: as compassionate, and this is typically referring to when a

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Speaker 1: suraga as someone who is not compensated outside of the

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Speaker 1: medical cost, and it is usually someone that the family knows,

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Speaker 1: like a friend or family member. Annie, I'm guessing if

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Speaker 1: you had gone, it would have been altruistic because it

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Speaker 1: was a friend that they knew. And even though this

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Speaker 1: term is kind of referring to the compassionate again or

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Speaker 1: altruistic meaning I'm doing it at the goodness of my

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Speaker 1: heart to help someone, that does not mean that those

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Speaker 1: who are compensated or commercial is not altruistic and its

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Speaker 1: meaning or the reason behind it. And a lot of

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Speaker 1: the articles that I've read for women who say why

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Speaker 1: I became a surrogate, UM, do say that I wanted

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Speaker 1: to help other women. So I do want to put

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Speaker 1: that as a caveat. We are not saying just because

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Speaker 1: it's commercial, but it's not from the goodness of the

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Speaker 1: one's heart. Yes, right there. Um. And then when we

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Speaker 1: talk about agency, we're talking about segacy agencies. Uh. This

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Speaker 1: is when a person goes through an agency or an

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Speaker 1: organization for their segacy needs and services, and that could

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Speaker 1: include things like matching and screening, counseling, support services, and

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Speaker 1: case management within and some of them I think also

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Speaker 1: do legal stuff because in different stays you have to

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Speaker 1: go through an adoption process to make it legal. So

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Speaker 1: lot of things, yes, a lot of things. And then

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Speaker 1: there's independent also known as private surrogacy, and this is

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Speaker 1: an arrangement made between the intended parent and surrogate without

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Speaker 1: the assistance from an agency. Then there's identified and this

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Speaker 1: is when the surrogate is already found before any services

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Speaker 1: our agencies are used. So oftentimes it's linked to altruistic

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Speaker 1: are compassionate surrogacy. So what does this process look like?

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Speaker 1: And we're not going to go into the ins and outs,

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Speaker 1: although we probably should. I don't know any Have we

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Speaker 1: done an episode in vitual fertilization, you and I have not,

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Speaker 1: past host I believe have, but I'm sure we could

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Speaker 1: revisit it because those kinds of things are changing all

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Speaker 1: the time all the time. Yes, reproductive technology has changed drastically,

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Speaker 1: so for this process, in a gestational surgacy, the process

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Speaker 1: of in vitro fertilization or IVF is used. Again, gestational

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Speaker 1: is having to use someone else's egg, remember that, or

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Speaker 1: the into parents ex So I said, that's not the surrogates.

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Speaker 1: So the embryo is created in the lab and will

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Speaker 1: be transferred to the saracus uterus. Again, there's no genetic

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Speaker 1: connection for the SAG and the embryo, and a week

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Speaker 1: after the embryo transfers, the doctor measures the pregnancy hormones

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Speaker 1: to see the progress of the procedure. And again it's

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Speaker 1: not uncommon for multiple transfers to take place before one

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Speaker 1: is actually successful, which is also why there's a higher

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Speaker 1: number of twins or multiple children in birds, because that's

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Speaker 1: kind of a pick and choose kind of thing for

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Speaker 1: invitual fertilization. But again, this is a very brief explanation

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Speaker 1: about what's going on. It's a whole procedure. I know this.

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Speaker 1: There's hormones involved, there's weeks and days of doctor's appointment,

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Speaker 1: all of that. But just kind of putting that out there,

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Speaker 1: it was kind of like a short review. Yes, and

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Speaker 1: some of you have written in about this process and

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Speaker 1: we really really appreciate all of you taking the time.

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Speaker 1: We do have some statistics, although finding statistics for surrogacy

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Speaker 1: is difficult, which is not that surprising since it's pretty

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Speaker 1: controversial still, which we are going to get into for sure. Um,

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Speaker 1: but there are a few numbers we do know. According

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Speaker 1: to the CDC, between two percent or almost a thirty

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Speaker 1: one thousand of all assisted reproductive technology cycles are a

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Speaker 1: r T used to gestational surrogate, and the numbers more

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Speaker 1: than doubled in from from one percent to two point

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Speaker 1: five per cent. Yeah, I thought those numbers were interesting,

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Speaker 1: especially because it still looks so low in comparison to

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Speaker 1: I was not able to find anything past. So I

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Speaker 1: found that interesting because it's been what eight years, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it sure has, it sure has. There are some things

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Speaker 1: that you're like, certainly someone's been keeping traffices and then I,

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Speaker 1: you know, shame on me every time, like nope, I

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Speaker 1: guess not, or they're not publishing them anyway. And within

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Speaker 1: these numbers there were at least eighteen thousand, four hundred

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Speaker 1: berths and random fact, yes, fifty three of those were twins.

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Speaker 1: Triplets are higher order multiples, and most of the carriers

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Speaker 1: were less than thirty five years old, as it is

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Speaker 1: more of a risk for later ages as you get older, right,

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Speaker 1: and according to one article, the number of circuits have

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Speaker 1: decreased greatly This year. One agency reported that pre pandemic

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Speaker 1: way time for intended parents who the parents who are

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Speaker 1: trying to seek a surrogate was estimated from three to

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Speaker 1: four months, which changed to one to two months during

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Speaker 1: the actual quarantine or the pandemic times um and now

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Speaker 1: has changed to eight months or longer. One agency stated

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Speaker 1: that their numbers showed a sixty decrease of surrogates from

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Speaker 1: previous years. Also, there's a conversation about vaccinated versus not vaccinated,

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Speaker 1: and it's a completely interesting conversation to the fact that,

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Speaker 1: as they said, there's more likely that they want vaccinated surrogates,

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Speaker 1: but the ones who are asking for non vaccinated have

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Speaker 1: a longer wait time because yeah, we are pro vacs here.

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Speaker 1: So if you're very upset by that statement, you should

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Speaker 1: move on. But if I found that interesting as well

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Speaker 1: as the fact that they were trying to find reasons

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Speaker 1: as to why the decrease has happened. And many people

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Speaker 1: are talking about illnesses and just quarantine, taking time for

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Speaker 1: themselves or not wanting to come out to meet new people.

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Speaker 1: And I've I've heard of people talking about how they

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Speaker 1: thought they had one and then things happened, whether illnesses

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Speaker 1: or deaths in the family, which we know is people

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Speaker 1: have been pretty rocked last year with a lot of deaths,

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Speaker 1: so that's kind of possibly why these numbers have decreased

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Speaker 1: so vastly. Yeah, And I know for me and a

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Speaker 1: lot of friends, and I believe, including you Smitha, like I,

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Speaker 1: there are things met clear I wanted to get done

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Speaker 1: that I just don't want to get done during a pandemic.

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Speaker 1: So I just put off all of these things that

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Speaker 1: I keep thinking, like, hopefully it'll be done soon and

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Speaker 1: I can go fix this, so I can go check

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Speaker 1: this out, and it keeps going going take care of yourselves, everybody.

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Speaker 1: So we also wanted to get into some of the

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Speaker 1: legalities of surrogacy and surrogates, because when it comes to

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Speaker 1: laws and regulations, there's a lot going on. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot to consider. In the US, the American Society for

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Speaker 1: Reproductive Medicine requires surguates to be between the ages of

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Speaker 1: twenty one and forties three, to have had at least

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Speaker 1: one full term healthy pregnancy and delivery, but no more

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Speaker 1: than five. But it does go beyond just simple regulations.

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Speaker 1: It's something that is defined and watched closely state by state.

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Speaker 1: There's apparently no federal mandates to it. So I believe

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Speaker 1: even though we do have that regulation by the A

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Speaker 1: s r M. There's no actual at ural mandates, and

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about a specific Supreme Court case that

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Speaker 1: really didn't change much though it seems the biggest role

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Speaker 1: for federal level is to just not address it, and

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Speaker 1: that's what a lot of the articles said. There's like

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Speaker 1: we're just going to pretend like it's not here. However,

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Speaker 1: internationally it has been addressed into, including the fact we've

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Speaker 1: been talking about India a little bit, who banned the

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Speaker 1: practice in But back to the States, a few states

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Speaker 1: have very strict laws, especially when it comes to commercial surgacies. Louisiana, Michigan,

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Speaker 1: and Nebraska have very limited, if not completely outlawed, any

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Speaker 1: practice of compensated surregacy, and even goes as far as

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Speaker 1: banning named parents on birth certificates, so literally saying these

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Speaker 1: intended parents can't be on there. So I think we've

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Speaker 1: talked about this before, but when it comes to child

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Speaker 1: support birth certificates, there's a lot of like loose ends

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Speaker 1: and a lot of question marks when it comes to

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Speaker 1: legitimacy and parents and parentification. So this is one of

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Speaker 1: those big things that you really have to look into.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, and it affects you if you're not biological.

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Speaker 1: So if the father is using his own sperm to

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Speaker 1: impregnate the egg, then maybe he can actually sign off

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Speaker 1: because it is biologically genetically his, but the mother may

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Speaker 1: not be able to um. And there are some exceptions

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Speaker 1: for this, but most of those exceptions are for those

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Speaker 1: who are in heterosexual marriages, which is not surprising, and

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Speaker 1: that specifically Louisy, And it seems to be the most

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Speaker 1: strict that I've seen in the States, but I could

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Speaker 1: be wrong, because you know, I didn't click on every state.

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Speaker 1: There is a website we can direct you too, because

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Speaker 1: they're very good at showing what's allowed and what's not.

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Speaker 1: But I was like, wow, that is really specific. And

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Speaker 1: then those few states that have very strict statutes or

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Speaker 1: laws and have a lot of limitation when it comes

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Speaker 1: to segacy, And if you're considering UH segacy as an option,

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Speaker 1: you may want to take a deeper look, especially if

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Speaker 1: you live in Arizona, Indiana, Idaho. New York, although they

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Speaker 1: have changed, they did, I believe allow for practice and

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Speaker 1: they definitely allow for ultra whist I UH surrogacy, But

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Speaker 1: I think New York lifted their band that could be wrong. Uh, Tennessee, Virginia,

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Speaker 1: and Wyoming are some of the more stricter practices, So

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Speaker 1: you might want to go and click and see what's

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Speaker 1: specifically happening in your area for sure. And one of

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Speaker 1: the big caveats and some of these laws and regulations

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Speaker 1: is the right of the surrogate themselves. Several states who

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Speaker 1: not enforce the contracts and so these agreements can be void,

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Speaker 1: which can cause a lot of drama for people, as

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Speaker 1: in fact, a famous case referred to as Baby m

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Speaker 1: Case when all the way up to the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 1: and yes, had a big effect in the world of surrogacy.

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Speaker 1: But we will get to that in a bit. And

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Speaker 1: because of these guidelines and different regulations, parental rights are

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Speaker 1: not necessarily guaranteed for surrogacy. Some states require one to

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Speaker 1: pass the adoption proceedings for legal custody are a quote

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Speaker 1: declaration of parentage before birth. Either way, many recommend hiring

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Speaker 1: reproductive right lawyers. There's planning out there apparently again. Wow,

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Speaker 1: and from what I understood, there at least over a

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Speaker 1: hundred surgacy agencies, which is still a lot less than

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Speaker 1: I expected, uh, to be honest, because they also work

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Speaker 1: internationally from what I understand, and seemingly a lot of

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Speaker 1: people who are looking for segacy will come to the

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Speaker 1: US to actually get the procedure done. So I found

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Speaker 1: that fascinating as it's still very limited here as well.

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Speaker 1: Um So let's talk about why people look at segacy

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Speaker 1: as an option. And it's not so unheard of for

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Speaker 1: families and individuals to start talking about all of their

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Speaker 1: options when it comes to children. And we've talked about

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Speaker 1: it previously, whether it's something we thought we would do

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Speaker 1: myself have children, you know, or still contemplating whether it's

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Speaker 1: something we want to do. Of course, as I get older,

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Speaker 1: the decision feels like it's no longer a choice. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's starting to get a little harder, and I'm starting

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Speaker 1: to contemplate maybe I want to do something like this,

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Speaker 1: even though again, adoption is something that is an option

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Speaker 1: that I would consider, but a lot of people don't.

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Speaker 1: And again we've talked about the many implications and adoptions

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Speaker 1: and a little complications as well, so that might not

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Speaker 1: be something that they want. But let's talk about the why. Yes,

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Speaker 1: let us talk about the why. So some of the

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Speaker 1: reasons include infertility and that's probably one of the biggest

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Speaker 1: for people who are looking at surrogacy as an option UM.

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Speaker 1: And when we say infertility, we were talking about the

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Speaker 1: CDC definition, which is not being able to get pregnant

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Speaker 1: conceive after one year or longer of unprotected sex. And

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Speaker 1: if the person is aged thirty five or older, they

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Speaker 1: may consider treatment for infertility if they are unable to

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Speaker 1: get pregnant after six months of unprotected sex. And so

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Speaker 1: for my friend who we were discussing this with, this

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Speaker 1: is what she was struggling with and she was thinking

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Speaker 1: about options. And according to the CDC and very heteronormative language,

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Speaker 1: this is fairly common. About ex percent of married women

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Speaker 1: ages fifteen to forty four are considered infertile, and about

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Speaker 1: twelve percent of women that same age have difficulty getting pregnant,

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Speaker 1: are being able to carry full term or that's also

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Speaker 1: known as impaired fecundity, and then there are same sex couples.

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Speaker 1: And of course one of the controversy comes from the

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Speaker 1: fact that the LGBTQ plus community continues to have to

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Speaker 1: fight for any rights whatsoever, and that includes being able

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Speaker 1: to have the family they dripped of UM and in

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Speaker 1: course includes being able to use a surrogacy as an option,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna talk a little bit more about it

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Speaker 1: in the controversial states, especially when it comes to gay men.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, this is what we're mainly talking about when

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Speaker 1: we talk about gay men hiring a surrogate. Just that

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Speaker 1: option and using surrogates has gained some popularity, Yeah, a

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Speaker 1: lot of popularity with the gay community, but there continues

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Speaker 1: to be a lot of red tape that gay caubles

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Speaker 1: have to go through to be able to do so

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Speaker 1: in many of the states. Of course, this is just

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Speaker 1: as complicated as adoption, as many of the states have

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Speaker 1: decided to outlaw that as well. And uh, gay couples

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Speaker 1: from adopting and being able to have rights to children

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Speaker 1: to be able to be parents in general, which is

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Speaker 1: horrific to me and heartbreaking. Um, However, the statistics show

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Speaker 1: that number of you been using sergacy has gone ups

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Speaker 1: for those who are able to, and has gone upout

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Speaker 1: fifty pc from and yeah, there are nonprofits that help

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Speaker 1: gay men go through the process of surrogacy to be

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Speaker 1: able to have the family that they want. And because

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Speaker 1: infertility effects men as well, many organizations are looking to

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Speaker 1: ensure that men are able to be covered by insurance

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Speaker 1: for fertility treatment and testing, as some will often deny

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Speaker 1: those who are not in a heterosexual marriage. But that's

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Speaker 1: not all. They are also looking for a way of

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Speaker 1: getting affordable coverage for those who are seeking to start

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Speaker 1: their family, as the process can cost anywhere from one

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars to two hundred thousand dollars, with the

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Speaker 1: commercial circuits being compensated anywhere from twenty two thousand to

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Speaker 1: twenty five tho dollars right, and those numbers the compensation

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Speaker 1: part for the surrogates are the U S numbers because

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Speaker 1: it's significant lower outside of the US, not surprisingly, but

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Speaker 1: the the actual process for the agencies are about that price.

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Speaker 1: I did see one place is that maybe it's twenty

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Speaker 1: two thousand that it starts there. I don't know where

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Speaker 1: that is because in the US it's showing a hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand as the beginning price. So another reason for this

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Speaker 1: maybe aging or just singleness. So I put these into

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Speaker 1: one category because I think that a lot of women

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Speaker 1: could be both and or uh. And I will be

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Speaker 1: honest again, this is why I've been thinking about it

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Speaker 1: so much lately, not necessarily because I want children, but

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Speaker 1: because I'm like, oh my god, I'm getting to the

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Speaker 1: point that I can't, I won't be able to, or

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be a lot of complications, and do I

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Speaker 1: even want to go through there? And to be honest,

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Speaker 1: my own past history that I know very little of

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Speaker 1: makes me worry that I'm not even able to anyway.

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Speaker 1: But there has been that as well as the fact that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I also don't want to be married. So but I would,

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Speaker 1: you know, in my mind, like I think i'd be

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Speaker 1: a good mom. Sometimes I think that sometimes I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but I will hold you like, huh. But I would

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Speaker 1: like to be able to have that option. And so

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Speaker 1: maybe saving my eggs or freezing my eggs for now

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Speaker 1: and then having a seaga later on wouldn't be a

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Speaker 1: bad thing. So there definitely comes through my head. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And that is also part of the reason some do

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Speaker 1: want to do this. They are talking about it. It's

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Speaker 1: just sex in the City episode by the way, Miranda

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Speaker 1: saves her eggs, freezes her eggs. Uh, they don't really

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Speaker 1: get saraga. But I still know what's interesting. But another

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Speaker 1: reason that they may choose segacy is past trauma alone

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Speaker 1: and whether we're talking about trauma as in like abusive

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Speaker 1: trauma from past or whether we're talking about PTSD from

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Speaker 1: previous pregnancies, like things like that. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: conversations about this is not healthy for me, and it

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Speaker 1: triggers a lot of things, but I do want children,

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Speaker 1: this may be the best route. And then there are

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Speaker 1: also physical problems. People who might not be able to

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Speaker 1: have children do too some type of physical issue. You

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Speaker 1: are overall complications with their health. That's another reason people

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Speaker 1: might want to seagate, right, And then sometimes it's because

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Speaker 1: they want to point blank and I know that one point,

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Speaker 1: I believe Kim Kardashian was heavily criticized because she did

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Speaker 1: use saragas and they're like, that's because she wants to

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Speaker 1: keep her figure blah blah blah blah blah, and wanted

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Speaker 1: through a lot of judgment, turns out that there was

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Speaker 1: a whole different issue with like her placenta. I think

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00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 1: I had detached at one point and that caused a

402
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Speaker 1: lot of complications. But it doesn't matter. Again, this is

403
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Speaker 1: one of those conversations like why why why and if

404
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 1: this is what they choose and it's legal and they're consenting.

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Speaker 1: I don't and it's above board, right, I don't understand,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, people may just choose to go that route

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Speaker 1: point blank. And then so talking about Kim Kardashian and

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Speaker 1: we've talked about it a bit, it's just the overall

409
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Speaker 1: controversies that happened under the guise of surregacy and Sarah

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Speaker 1: get pregnancies so much so that many families, especially women,

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Speaker 1: and there are several articles, are shamed for their decisions.

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Speaker 1: So we'll try to keep it a secret, not acknowledge it,

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Speaker 1: or try to move on. UM. And we talked about

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Speaker 1: it before, just a stigma of women not being able

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Speaker 1: to have or want children. UM, there's a judgment there,

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Speaker 1: and we did a whole episode of like, oh, we're

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Speaker 1: failing as women because we don't want them or we

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Speaker 1: don't want them now or we don't have them now,

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Speaker 1: either of those things. And again there's so seems to

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Speaker 1: be many who freely give their opinions and judgments without

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Speaker 1: knowing what the individual is going through on their own UM.

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Speaker 1: And just beyond having judge Mcjudgeson's that exists, there are

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Speaker 1: many who feel that this goes beyond that, as in like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this goes against all of humanity. It's really bad. Well,

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Speaker 1: one big controversy is that people believe this is a

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Speaker 1: tight rope of using women as just mirror birthing machines,

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Speaker 1: and that this can lead to taking advantage of those

428
00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: who are economically disadvantaged. According to one study about the

429
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 1: law created in India in eighteen which banned commercial surrogacy

430
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: in the country and also placed heavily restricted rules on

431
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 1: altruistic surrogacies quote. Some feminists also criticized the commodification of

432
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: women's reproductive body, turning women into disposable beings, living tools,

433
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 1: or baby machines, and draw parallels of prostitution and slavery.

434
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: So they believe that using surrogates, especially those who are

435
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 1: in dire need to do their circumstances, is something that's

436
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 1: leaning towards a level of slavery and disenfranchisement. And there

437
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: has been misconduct in the practice, so this is not

438
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 1: too far off when it comes to some organizations, as

439
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: there were no real regulations for the agencies or clinics,

440
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 1: just overall guidelines um and in twenty twelve, of course,

441
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: came out of women being confined to hostiles not properly

442
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: compensated and not being told of all the risks of

443
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 1: the procedure going through the pregnancy or having these babies,

444
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: having babies, and in some cases that the surrogates had

445
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: no rights whatsoever. So, yeah, that is definitely leaning towards

446
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: the trafficking the alarmist. What are they doing They're not

447
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 1: being made aware and oftentimes they are. Yeah, they're taking

448
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 1: advantage of and the pay was so inconsistent that it

449
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: brought up a lot of red flags for the actual practice.

450
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 1: Of course, some would say, you know, no, but this

451
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: was helping the families. We actually you know, they're They

452
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,239
Speaker 1: found a couple of women who were surrogates and they

453
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: were concerned when the band took place because it really

454
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 1: helped them during a dire time. So they had jobs

455
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: gotten fired, whether it's because of pandemic reasons or whatever.

456
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: They were able to provide. One talked about how they

457
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 1: were able to build a house from that money. But

458
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: the level of compensation was so vastly different for those

459
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 1: in India than those in the US. That obviously shows

460
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: a real disconnect and whether or not it is helping

461
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: or harming, right. And then there was a specific case

462
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 1: in when a couple abandoned one of the twins that

463
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 1: were born in India, which brought a spotlight on the

464
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 1: transnational surrogacy and some of the downfalls of that practice. Right.

465
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: Apparently one of the twins was born with a disability

466
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: and when they found that out, literally disobeyed in them

467
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: on the street and left. So it was really ugly. Yeah,

468
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: and the growth of surrogates in Southeast Asia grew in

469
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,919
Speaker 1: preven endemic years. But the controversy of transnational surrogacy and

470
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: this lack of regulations has been a focal point of

471
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 1: why many countries are banning the procedure. Right, I believe

472
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 1: there was a case in Cambodia in which they hadn't

473
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: It was like thirty two women where they found they

474
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: were being surrogates and that's against the law. Was completely banned,

475
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: so they were threatened fifteen years like a lot of

476
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: years in jail, but instead took the plate to keep

477
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: the children and raised the children, and anybody who were

478
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: assisting got much less sentence, which I thought was funny

479
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: because they were the ones that facilitated all of this,

480
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: So you would think if this was a nactual human

481
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: trafficking case, they were gotten the bigger sentence as the traffickers,

482
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: you would hope. Yeah, and this was definitely one of

483
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: those traditional surrogacies where they was their egg and that's

484
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: believed they had to pay a pretty big fine, but

485
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: it was the national headlines where they were trafficking. So

486
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: again it kind of goes into like, oh, but okay,

487
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: I know what you're trying to say. But at the

488
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 1: same time, and is it shady yes, Like again when

489
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: it comes to when uh countries like the U s

490
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: and and the couple was from the Australia, that dropped,

491
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: Like when you have those types of divide one using

492
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: the other, you're like, yeah, there's a big disparaging level

493
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,719
Speaker 1: here that it's like, uh yeah, this is not pretty,

494
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 1: this is not cool. But yeah, that was an interesting

495
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 1: case that I did read. So Also, a big controversy

496
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: has been whether this practice is an affront to womanhood altogether.

497
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 1: As a proposal to legalize surgacy in New York came around,

498
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,719
Speaker 1: many feminists, including Glorious Steinum, opposed legislation, arguing that quote

499
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: paid sexy turns women's bodies into commodities and it's cool

500
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: warsive to poor women. Given the sizeable payment it can bring. Yes,

501
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: As the New York Times states in their article concerning

502
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: fertility and surrogacy quote, some critics contend that the quest

503
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: for fertility equality erases women and denies their essential biological role.

504
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: And though many surrogate babies are born to straight couples,

505
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: some opponents of surrogacy are uncomfortable with connecting the purchasing

506
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: power of men, especially gay men, to the bodies of women. Right,

507
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: So this was specific to why they were saying that

508
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: it was biased against gay men these bands, and but yeah,

509
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: that was pretty specific. They were trying to say that

510
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: this felt like they're taking away womanhood and we're gonna

511
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: talk about a bit. But it just seems homophobic as

512
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: well as the transphobic when you look at the bigger

513
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: charms of what womanhood. Yes, definitely and yeah, yeah, though

514
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: it is very reminiscent of those who make the transphobic

515
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: argument of biology. Some say that this is in reference

516
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: of pregnancy to womanhood. Professor Phillis Schessler, who wrote about

517
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: the surrogacy case of baby M, states, some people want

518
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: to do away with reality, but biology is real. Biology exists,

519
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: and biology is what will get you pregnant. Yeah. Well

520
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: then speaking of baby UM. So the case of Baby

521
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: M which again we talked about just previously, was a

522
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: huge case that went to the Supreme Court in nineteen eight.

523
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: So this was all before gestational, This is all traditional theracasy.

524
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: So what happened in New Jersey in nineteen eighty five

525
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: a woman agreed through a contract to be traditional surrogate

526
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: to a couple named the Sterns. The wife of the

527
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: intended parents had multiple school roses and felt she would

528
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: not be able to endure the pregnancy like a lot

529
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: of physical limitations, and went through the surrogacy route. The

530
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: woman was compensated ten thousand dollars which would equate to

531
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: about twenty two dollars today to carry the pregnancy to

532
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: term and would relinquish parental rights to the Sterns. But

533
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: after giving birth, the woman changed her mind and gave

534
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: up the money to keep the child and then was

535
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: sued by the Sterns. Yes um, and in the lower

536
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: courts the Sterns won. However, in the Supreme Court the

537
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: decision was reversed. They invalidated the contract stating that it

538
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: was in quote affront to public policy and the intended

539
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: payment was quote illegal, perhaps criminal, and potentially degrading two women. However,

540
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: custody was given to the Sterns under the premise that

541
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: it was in the child's best interests. But cases often

542
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: used as a reason commercial surgacy should not be legalized

543
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: the case for traditional surgacy and gestational surrogacy. Um, these

544
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: cases are often seen as completely different, right, which is

545
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: how it stated in much of the laws throughout the country.

546
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: But yeah, I found that interesting because it's still reminiscent.

547
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: Like I found an article that was written in twenty

548
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: eighteen talking about it. And obviously, as we were talking

549
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: about the one reporter who had actually she was the

550
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: one that chronicled the whole event, miss Chessler, from this

551
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: case and kind of became known for it. So therefore

552
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: she her commentary later on was very important because she

553
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: was that you know, eye witness of that, and it

554
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: reverberated to the they're gonna it's almost like a lifetime movie.

555
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: And I think it was a lifetime movie where the

556
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: woman was taking trying to take back the child, and

557
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: how it affected the young lady she was it was

558
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: a baby girl. So and some of the controversy comes

559
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: from the conservative standpoint of the heteronormative ideas of family,

560
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: which could also again lean to the continued bait of

561
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: women's bodies and who has authority of it and you know,

562
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: the lack of autonomy of it. And while researching the subject,

563
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: there are many sites dedicated to the fact that segacy

564
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: again was just a slap in the face two families,

565
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: traditional families, and to children's rights, and that surgacy quote

566
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: deliberately separated the child from the only mother that they

567
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: have ever known the moment they were born. So it's

568
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: kind of weird, Like what again, this makes me question

569
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: why many of the conservatives would suggest adoption as an

570
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: alternative for anything for abortion. You know, we hear this

571
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: a lot. If that's the case, if they arguing for that,

572
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: I'm like, this doesn't This doesn't a lie. This doesn't

573
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: a lie. I don't understand. I mean again, it definitely

574
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: feels very much like, Okay, we've made it so difficult

575
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: for women to have agency over their reproductive rates. They're

576
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: making money off of it. No, never, right, that's wrong.

577
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: On top of this, there is also, yes, this constant

578
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: fear of human trafficking that's been a threat throughout what

579
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: we're talking about, and please know that it is considered

580
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: by these sites human trafficking even though it's legal. Seriously,

581
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: agencies they're talking about, As you said, Samantha, that doesn't

582
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: mean there aren't issues, but they are legal circusy agencies.

583
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: I mean when we talk about human trafficking, we talked

584
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: about it so much with Bridget just how they're using

585
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: this almost as a caveat to so many things to

586
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: trigger a response and this is kind of on that

587
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: same lines again, so many shady practices, and this is

588
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,239
Speaker 1: we're talking about human lives. I feel the same way

589
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: when it comes to adoption, that we need to regulate

590
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: and have this conversation and hold people accountable for sure,

591
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: and just the limits that it can be abused. Absolutely

592
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: again I go for both of those things. But like

593
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: I said, when we have just constantly using these words

594
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: where it's like it doesn't mean when you think it

595
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: means anymore, Yeah, are you're just using it essentially. Another

596
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: reason these sites state for being against surrogacy is that

597
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: it has a negative impact on the children, even giving

598
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: specific accounts from children who were surrogates stating that they

599
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: felt like um their lives were negatively impacted. However, in

600
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: a study led by Susan Golembach, director of the Center

601
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 1: of Family Research at the University of Cambridge, there were

602
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: questions of adjustment problems at a younger age about age

603
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: seven four children born through surrogacy, but it also depended

604
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: on the openness of the birth with their children, and

605
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: that by age ten there were no differences in behavioral

606
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: adjustments with their children they were studying, is what they found.

607
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: So I have not found many studies. I did find

608
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: a couple of studies about those who were surrogates and

609
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: that if that impacted the children, and apparently it really didn't. Again,

610
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 1: I feel like this could be set along the lines

611
00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: of adoption as well, like if you're openly communicating what

612
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: this is and who why this is, that there were

613
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: less likely any real disruptions and adjustments and behaviors even

614
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: though people like but but it's the lying part that

615
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 1: often will affect young children, especially if they feel like

616
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: something that's been hidden and or that it is a stigma.

617
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: So if you're ready at the in the butt, oftentimes

618
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: they can And even in the baby m case, the

619
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: young woman who was the baby there was in question

620
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 1: said that she was fine. It's quoted from two thousand

621
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: seven because apparently she does not care to be in

622
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: the limelight, so we don't read much about her, which

623
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 1: I don't blame her, but she stays, I love my

624
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: family when it comes to the Sterns, very much and

625
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: very happy to be with them. I'm very happy I

626
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: ended up with them, and I love them. They're my

627
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: best friends in the whole world. That's all I have

628
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: to say about it. So again there's different cases and

629
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: conversations about who is affected by what. Of course, we

630
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: know that these similar sites will also have a conversation

631
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: about how gpt Q parents affect children as well and

632
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: the upbringing up children. So I would take that all

633
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: with a little grain of salt, and again not a

634
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: lot of numbers out there. It's kind of funny to

635
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: me how sperm that it is really given seems to

636
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: have less stigma than the actual mothers going through this,

637
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 1: and it is the mothers who are often judge more

638
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: so than the fathers in that family. Yeah, in both cases,

639
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: like the surrogate and the mother. Yes, such, Yes, this

640
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: is all very very interesting and as we said at

641
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: the top, listeners, if you have any experience or knowledge

642
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Speaker 1: about any of this, please write to us. You can

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Speaker 1: email us at Stephanie and mom Stuff at ihart meia

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Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom

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Speaker 1: Stuff podcast or on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You.

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Speaker 1: Thanks as always too, are super producer Christina. Thank you Christina,

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Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told

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Speaker 1: You the protection of iHeart Radio. For more podcast for

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Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,