1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I am Aksha Drati This week, where 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: are all the people? Last year I spoke to Keith Anderson, 3 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: CEO of Scottish Barer for an episode of Zero, and 4 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: there was a throwaway line in that long conversation that 5 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: has stuck with me. It was about people. 6 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 2: Right now, I'm looking to employ another thousand engineers. My 7 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: counterparts at SASE are looking to employ another thousand engineers, 8 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 2: and my counterparts on National Grid are looking to employ 9 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 2: another thousand engineers. We're all looking for about two and 10 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 2: a half thousand engineers that are not two and a 11 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 2: half thousand unemployed engineers in central Scotland. So if we 12 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: don't do anything differently, we'll just run around stealing staff 13 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 2: from each other. 14 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: The people challenge for any growing industry is a known problem, 15 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: but the Heat's answer made me look deeper for why 16 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: that shortage of skilled workers for electrification industries is a 17 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: more severe challenge than most people think, and it was 18 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: not hard to find examples in almost every large economy 19 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: in the world except you guessed it, China. This week's 20 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: episode is going to explore the second story in the 21 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: Bottleneck series for Bloomberg Green, where we look at unusual 22 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: things that are holding back electrification and to help me 23 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: bring out the best of the reporting. I'm joined by 24 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: my London colleague, Olivia Rudgar. This will be the second 25 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: episode in the Bottleneck series. If you haven't listened to 26 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: the first one, please check out last week's episode on 27 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: the shortage of transformers and why we are running the 28 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: Bottleneck series in the first place. Welcome back to the show, Olivia, 29 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. So you write about many things 30 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: for green By. One of your focus areas is greener 31 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: living and that means writing about things like heat pumps. 32 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: How did all of that bring you to the subject 33 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: of our chat today, which is a shortage of skilled workers. 34 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. 35 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 4: So I spent quite a lot of time thinking about 36 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 4: the heat pump market and how installations are going. 37 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 3: And the short answer to that. 38 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 4: Is not very quickly, especially in the UK, and the 39 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 4: reasons for that, and some of them with structural their 40 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 4: cost based, but a lot of it is because there's 41 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 4: just not a very mature industry for heat pump installers 42 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 4: in the UK. There are not enough people who know 43 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 4: how to do a really good heat pump install and 44 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 4: I thought it would be quite interesting to try and look 45 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 4: at that, and especially in the context of what's happening now, 46 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 4: which is you get big companies coming in to try 47 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 4: and be heat pump installers and where are they finding 48 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 4: the people to do that. 49 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: We heard in the intro the CEO of Scottish Power 50 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: talk about a shortage of people working in the utilities. 51 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: So typically in a newsroom, when two reporters who are 52 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: working on two different things come across a trend that 53 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: seems to be affecting a big industry, it's time to 54 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: look more deeply. And that's what we've done with this 55 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: story with our colleague Jost Soul in New York. We 56 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: interview dozens of people for this and one of those 57 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: interviews really stuck out. Bathsudmeyer, who's the managing director at 58 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: Boston Consulting Group and head of its climate and sustainability practice, 59 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 1: said this thing. He said, the north Volt fiasco is 60 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: a classic example of a great idea in concept, but 61 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,239 Speaker 1: it fails over the availability of labor. And for context, 62 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: Northwold is a Swedish company aiming to be Europe's first 63 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: battery giant. And I say aiming to be it's because well, 64 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: it filed for bankruptcy in March twenty twenty five. So Olivia, 65 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: what happened and why is a shortage of workers involved here? 66 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 3: Yeah? 67 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 4: So, I mean this is one of those stories where 68 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 4: I had to really rethink what I understood about what 69 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 4: happened with Northvale. They were for a while a big 70 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 4: European success story. This was sort of Europe's effort to 71 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 4: be a global power on the battery stage. 72 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 3: They were on the verge of doing an IPO. 73 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 4: They announced that they were going to do one of 74 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, and then it all fell apart. 75 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 3: And I think what we found was, you know, they 76 00:03:58,640 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 3: just didn't have the. 77 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 4: Pace people that knew how to run the really sophisticated 78 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 4: machinery that they were using for the manufacturing, and those 79 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 4: people tended to come from China and South Korea and 80 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 4: they just couldn't get them. And the domestic population in 81 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 4: Europe where they were operating just wasn't sufficient. They just 82 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 4: couldn't get the expertise and production sload to the extent 83 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 4: that they weren't making any money. 84 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 3: And that was the issue. 85 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, the company raised thirteen billion dollars in total, 86 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: and if it had iPod when they were hoping to IPO, 87 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: which is in twenty twenty three, the valuation could have 88 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: been twenty billion dollars and so suddenly that company has 89 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: gone to well, not zero, because there will be something 90 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,679 Speaker 1: that people can recover from it, but it doesn't exist 91 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: as a company that had all this ambition. It is 92 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: quite an extreme example of what a shortage of workers 93 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: can do. It can lead to a company failing. But 94 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: shortages of skilled workers in itself is not a new thing. 95 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: Often in booming industries there is just a difficulty of 96 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: finding people because sometimes the skills are just new and 97 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: you need to find the people with those skills or 98 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: train them. These days, automation can help sometimes do smooth 99 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: things over, but eventually you just need people for those jobs. 100 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: What we found in the electrification industries is that people 101 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: are particularly alarmed with this problem. Why is that. 102 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 4: I think the alarm comes from, you know, some deadlines 103 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 4: that you have on that industry that you possibly don't 104 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 4: in other industries. Part of that is meeting climate goals. 105 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 4: You know, these are in some cases sort of technologies 106 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 4: that are scaling up really rapidly and in the last 107 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 4: few years in the West, so you know in Europe 108 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 4: and the US, there's been a sudden sort of influx 109 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 4: of investment or a sudden influx of interest, and that's 110 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 4: really rising quite recently, and you see that in the 111 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 4: heat pup market, and obviously that was the case with Norfall, 112 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 4: and that's kind of coupled with some more sort of 113 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 4: underlying demographic and historic trends that have made that increase 114 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 4: sort of difficult service. So, you know, there's very well 115 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 4: known to be an aging population worker age population is 116 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,799 Speaker 4: not where I think most companies in any sector would. 117 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 3: Like it to be for the availability of labor. 118 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 4: And then coupled with that, you know, especially in the 119 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 4: UK where we sit now, there's a long history of 120 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 4: the industrialization. You know, the UK is an industrial power 121 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 4: and it certainly isn't anymore. So we've shared a lot 122 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 4: of the resource that we once had in that space. 123 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: And in our reporting we found that shortage of skilled 124 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: workers is not quite a global problem. Places like India 125 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: and China, where there is a large population and where 126 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: they have seen electricity demand rise five or ten percent 127 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 1: per year, those are places that typically don't face a 128 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,559 Speaker 1: shortage of workers. In the case of China, in fact, 129 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: we found that they just have many more than they 130 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: need to do their jobs. It's really a shortage of 131 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: workers in Western economies. Now, before we get to solutions, 132 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: let's try and understand what is the impact this can 133 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: have on companies. So, in the case of heat pumps, 134 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: business can slow down. In the case of Northworld, a 135 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,239 Speaker 1: company can fail. What other impacts are there? 136 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it obviously increases the cost. If there's 137 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 4: not enough labor, the cost of hiring goes up. You 138 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 4: have to pay your workers more. 139 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 3: So. One example that Josh our colleague in the US, 140 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 3: came up with. 141 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 4: He found and that Dominion Energy, which is a utility 142 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 4: in Virginia, asked regulators to increase bills for residential customers 143 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 4: by about ten dollars fifty per month over the next 144 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 4: two years, which is partly because of that high cost 145 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:27,679 Speaker 4: of labor. 146 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 3: So it's being passed on to the consumer as well. 147 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 4: And you know, in the sector that I'm most familiar 148 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 4: with that out of all of these, which is the 149 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 4: heat pump sector, what we found was that for Octopus certainly, 150 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 4: which is one of the biggest players in this market, 151 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 4: the strangle on their ambitions to sort of dominate and 152 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 4: grow it's not, you know, a lack of consumer demand. 153 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 4: It's not a lack of components or sort of physical items, 154 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 4: it's that lack of labor. So, you know, we had 155 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 4: one executive tell us, it's not that we don't have 156 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 4: the technology or the hardware or solutions. It's just how 157 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 4: quickly we can physically get people brought into the business 158 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 4: and trained up. And the ultimate impact of that is 159 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 4: that they are limited in terms of the number of 160 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 4: heat pumps they can instore for people. 161 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: So one idea to try and deal with the shortage 162 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: of people is of course to import them. Now, the 163 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: politics of immigration is complicated, but companies who want more 164 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: people want them quickly. Are they calling on governments to 165 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: make it easier to bring people from places like Indian 166 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: China where these skills are in abundance. 167 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, So it wasn't really something that came up in 168 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 4: our conversations when we talk to people that we didn't 169 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 4: have lots of companies saying, oh, yes, please, we would 170 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 4: like more liberal immigration laws, even when we were asking 171 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 4: them what would help you. I think it's interesting if 172 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 4: you look at the sort of current political climate, it's 173 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 4: quite difficult maybe for companies to explicitly ask for that, 174 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 4: and it's very sort of politically contentious. So, you know, 175 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 4: I talked to Julia Jlatt, who's the associate director at 176 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 4: the Migration Policy Institute, and she just said companies are 177 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 4: not talking about immigration policy. They are running away from 178 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 4: the topic. And I think that holds true across both 179 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 4: the US and Europe at the moment. 180 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: And immigrants have met to this industry. One of those 181 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: reports from Julia's institute found that eight percent of renewable 182 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: energy workers in Spain are immigrants, twenty six percent in Australia, 183 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: So the numbers can be quite large depending on when 184 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 1: the world these industries are growing. Coming to the politics 185 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: of immigration, you and I sit in a country that 186 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: chose to Brexit, which means leave the EU as a 187 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: result of wanting to have fewer immigrants. Now we are 188 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 1: a few years on from when Brexit happened. How did 189 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: that play out for the UK? 190 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, so the picture with immigration and brexit's quite interesting 191 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,719 Speaker 4: because you know, one of the things you did here 192 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 4: around the time that it was being campaigned for by 193 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 4: supporters of Brexit were actually, you know, this would open 194 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 4: the UK up to bring in more skilled immigrants. From 195 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 4: places outside the EU, so you know, India would have 196 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 4: been one of those places. And the fact of the 197 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 4: matter now is that not only has immigration gone up 198 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 4: quite significantly since then, so it hasn't come down in 199 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 4: the way that you know, some supporters would have wanted. 200 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 4: You don't here really hear many people making that argument 201 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 4: now that we should have lots more immigrants from India, 202 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 4: so that I think that's an interesting indication of where 203 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 4: that picture has gone. The kind of underlying context of 204 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 4: this is, like we said before, you know, the UK 205 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 4: is not an industrial power anymore. Less than ten percent 206 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 4: of the UK's economic output comes from manufacturing. 207 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 3: There's been a big increase in immigration. 208 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,439 Speaker 4: In the last few years, which has been really politically controversial. 209 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 4: Paul after poll suggests it's something that people are really 210 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 4: concerned about, and that sort of political context is now 211 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 4: forcing the left leaning Labor Party to look at some 212 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 4: quite restrictive immigration policies and just recently actually, so I 213 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 4: think that we're in a situation now where it's I 214 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 4: can see why it's difficult for companies to say things 215 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 4: that would be pro more migration. 216 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the nuance of Brexit perhaps is lost 217 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: on people outside because from Brexit there was actually a 218 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: shortage of workers in the UK, and that caused the 219 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: Conservative Party, which was eating exit, to actually loosen the 220 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: criteria for legal migration, and which is what led to 221 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: a huge number of people coming in trying to solve 222 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: the problems that the country had. And now there's a 223 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: backlash where even the left leaning party, which is typically 224 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: thought of as being more pro immigration, has had to 225 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: take stances that are seemingly like of f our right party. 226 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: And so if immigration may not be a viable solution 227 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: in the short term, there is one thing that companies 228 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: could be doing, which is approaching people from other sectors. 229 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 1: Is that happening, Yeah. 230 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 4: I mean that was one of the things that I 231 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 4: think was most interesting in this reporting, the similarities actually 232 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 4: between some of the processes in these really technical sectors 233 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 4: and some of the more established traditional areas of manufacturing. 234 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 4: So you know, for example, we talked to uk Bic, 235 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 4: which is a facility that helps battery companies develop and 236 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 4: industrialize their processes, and they've hired people quite a few 237 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 4: people from say industries like baking, so people who are 238 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 4: making pastry are now making batteries, and there's a lot 239 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 4: of crossover there, so you know, that's something that they've 240 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 4: they've had to think outside the box and be a 241 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 4: little bit innovative. 242 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 1: When I heard that, I was actually not surprised. As 243 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: a chemical engineer, I kind of know this. In batteries, 244 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: you actually have stuff that is quite dough like, quite 245 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: flower like, and so you know, machines handle dough and 246 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: flower and so machines can handle battery chemicals. But yes, 247 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: it is something that people find surprising, which is that 248 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: these transferable skills from other industries that could be applied 249 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: to what you know, would have been seen as a 250 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: high tech manufacturing versus croissot making. 251 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,079 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I you know, I think even with the 252 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 4: UK PIC people that we spoke to, there is still 253 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 4: a learning process. So it takes, you know, many months 254 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 4: to get people up to the level where they can 255 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 4: be let loose, I suppose on the factory floor. And 256 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 4: if you think about that's where people already have a 257 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 4: level of comfort and understanding of what it's like to 258 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 4: be an industrial facility. Training somebody from scratch is a 259 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 4: whole different ballgame. So you know, we also talk to 260 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 4: a professor at Newcastle University who's really involved in the 261 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 4: process of staffing some of these battery facilities that are 262 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 4: coming to the UK that you know, within the next 263 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 4: few years, really really tight deadlines, you know. And he 264 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 4: was making the point that in southwest of England, which 265 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 4: is one area where these one of these facilities are 266 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 4: supposed to be, it's a very agricultural area, you know, 267 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 4: that's what the history is, that's what the people's background 268 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 4: and their understanding and their maybe their job experiences, and 269 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 4: going from that to working in a battery facility is 270 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 4: a much bigger jump. 271 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: And so training came up as one of those things 272 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: which companies deploy to try and deal with these solutions. 273 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: What does this training look like on the ground. 274 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, so when we talk about training, it can mean 275 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 4: a whole range of different things. You can be starting 276 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 4: with people who have a little bit of experience in 277 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 4: an industry or none at all, and obviously that then 278 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 4: changes the level of teaching you have to do. But 279 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 4: you know, you can take this right back to the 280 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 4: school level. So you know, it's arguable that there's potentially 281 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 4: not enough focus on those technical skills that are being 282 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 4: taught in schools. So, for example, the French power company 283 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 4: enodis is doing technology classes in high schools and also 284 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 4: in universities, and then they kind of offer internships off 285 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 4: the back of that, so they know that those people 286 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 4: who've done those training programs have a really good basis 287 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,959 Speaker 4: in the skills that they need. And then you know, 288 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 4: one of the other things that we found was there's 289 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 4: quite a lot of career changing in this industry, so 290 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 4: people coming into it a lot later on, maybe with 291 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 4: soft skills or other skills that are then helpful and 292 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 4: relevant to them in that more technical career, but not 293 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 4: potentially with the technical background, which is what they then need. 294 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 3: To be taught. 295 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: And to try and just get a sense of what 296 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: this training looks like, Octopus Energy opened their doors to us. 297 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: We got to go to Sheffield and North of England 298 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: and actually look at what a training center looks like. 299 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: What does training on a day look like for people 300 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: who are coming into this industry. From the day we 301 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: spent in Sheffield, what did you find surprising? 302 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 4: Well, it was really interesting to be sort of allowed 303 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 4: into one of these facilities and you know it's this 304 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 4: massive warehouse and the outskirts of Sheffield sort of on 305 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 4: a business park, and half of it is basically a 306 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 4: fulfillment center for Octopus, So it's full of the sort 307 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 4: of the components, the heat pumps and various things that 308 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 4: they're shipping out to people's homes. And half of it 309 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 4: is a training facility and one of the things it 310 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 4: includes is the sort of house within a warehouse which 311 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 4: is kind of set up with plumbing and everything so 312 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 4: that the apprentices can practice things like installing radiators. And 313 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 4: they also do training at heights to help with water 314 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 4: tanks in lofts and solar panels and things like that. 315 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 4: So yeah, we went in and I sat in on 316 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 4: a session for a while which was all about learning 317 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 4: how to install radiators. I really wish I had retained 318 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 4: more of that information might be useful to me in 319 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 4: my life. And yeah, and then we got to meet 320 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 4: the apprentices, which was really interesting. You know, I think 321 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 4: there's a big age range, definitely more men than women, 322 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 4: which I think is really standard in this industry, although 323 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 4: you know, we did meet one of the female apprentices 324 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 4: who was really really interesting. 325 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 3: She's called Gracie Reid. 326 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 4: She's twenty and she kind of comes from a family 327 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 4: of people who are really well versed in the heating industry. 328 00:15:58,160 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 4: So She's got a grandfather who was a gas engine 329 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 4: for example, and you know, always knew that she wanted 330 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 4: a trade, and I think it's really interesting that she's 331 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 4: kind of taking that forward. You know, this is this 332 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 4: is the modern version of what her grandfather did. So 333 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 4: that was a really lovely appealing narrative that I really liked. 334 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 4: And she was also great, you know, she has ambitions 335 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 4: to become a trainer in the future, and she's got 336 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 4: a really kind of good plan for her life. And 337 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 4: then some of the other people that we met, I mean, 338 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 4: she was just starting off in her working life, but 339 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 4: some of the other people we met were career changes, 340 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 4: so people who had had a whole other careers, you know, 341 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 4: sometimes for twenty years or more and other sectors before 342 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 4: they sort of came to this, you know, and their 343 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 4: motivations for coming to the sector were also really interesting. So, 344 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 4: you know, we talked to one guy, Paul Phillips, who 345 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 4: he used to work in a prison. He was kind 346 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 4: of doing physical education in a prison, and he was 347 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 4: an environmentalist. You know, he said, I'm just really interested 348 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 4: in climate change and doing my bit. And he had 349 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 4: tattoo of a tree, and you know, it was really 350 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 4: into green stuff, and I thought that was fascinating because 351 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 4: you know, the narrative you often hear is that people 352 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 4: don't care about these things, and clearly some people do. 353 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 4: Was another gentleman we met called Ed who used to 354 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 4: be in the army and he had had, you know, 355 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 4: a long, long career, lots of tours of some of 356 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 4: the most dangerous war zones in the last twenty five years, 357 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 4: and had come away sort of looking for something else, 358 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 4: potentially a new sense of identity. 359 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 2: You know. 360 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 4: He said to me, some people really struggle with their 361 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 4: identity after they leave the army, and Octopus, as we 362 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 4: saw in the warehouse, has very strong branding, very strong identity. 363 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: Lots of pink octopuses who are. 364 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, and he was wearing a little sweatshirt with a 365 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 4: pink octopus on. There you go, that's your new identity, 366 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 4: and you also get to be part of this green 367 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 4: energy workforce. I think that's actually very empowering and exciting 368 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 4: for people to be part of this new vanguard of 369 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 4: something different. 370 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of my conversation with Olivia 371 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: Rudguard after the shortbreak, and Hey, if you're enjoying this episode, 372 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. 373 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 1: Your feedback really matters and helps other listeners find the show. 374 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:12,239 Speaker 1: Thank you. Octopus told us that by twenty thirty they 375 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: want four thousand installers will be trained up to put 376 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 1: solar panels and heat pumps and electric vehicle chargers. But 377 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: the cohort that we saw was about a dozen people 378 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: and it was the third cohort they were training, which 379 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: means they've only had about thirty six people who are 380 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: currently in the process. How are they going to reach 381 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: four thousand people in the next five years. 382 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think it's going to be a challenge. 383 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 4: I mean, I will say, given that Octopus has sort 384 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 4: of come from nowhere to become Britain's largest utility in 385 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 4: the last few years, if anyone can do it, they've 386 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 4: definitely can found that expectations and other areas of their business. 387 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: I got to go to Era heat Pumps, which is 388 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: another brand of heat pumps that do everything vertically integrated, 389 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,719 Speaker 1: so they have their own line of heat pumps. They 390 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: also to train their own staff in Europe, and they've 391 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: trained over the past year or some three hundred people. 392 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: So you are getting into some of the hundreds when 393 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,959 Speaker 1: it comes to training. But given how far behind the 394 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: UK is on heat pump installation, what is the UK 395 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 1: government doing? 396 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 4: I think the first thing to say is probably that 397 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 4: there's not enough going on. I think there's been a 398 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 4: lot of policy to encourage people to install heat pumps 399 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 4: on the consumer side, but possibly less on the installer side, 400 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 4: to make sure that the industry is sort of healthy 401 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,719 Speaker 4: and large enough and well developed enough to meet this demand. 402 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 4: And I think that's feeding into sometimes a lack of 403 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 4: consumer confidence as well, because people don't have easy and 404 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 4: understandable access to a good heat pump installer always they 405 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 4: don't know where to go. You know, there are some 406 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 4: really big targets out there for how many heat pumps 407 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 4: that you can actually needs to decarbonize home heating, which 408 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 4: is a really big part of meeting that zero. So 409 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 4: it's you know, six hundred thousand installations a year. We're 410 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 4: at a tiny fraction of that right now, so the 411 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 4: scale that the industry. 412 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 3: Is at is way way way off. 413 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 4: There are a couple of programs that have been announced 414 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 4: recently from the government side to encourage more people into 415 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 4: this industry, but they've got a pretty tough. 416 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 3: Challenge on their hands, I think. 417 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 4: I think partly because this is also an aging industry. 418 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 4: A lot of plumbers raging out of it, and a 419 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 4: lot of people are at the age where maybe they 420 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 4: don't want to learn, you know, in your whole new 421 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 4: setup or installation process, and they'll just retire still installing 422 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 4: gas boilers. So there are a lot of structural issues 423 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 4: that make this really difficult. 424 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is something I found in the Transformer story 425 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: as well. When I've went to visit the g Vernova 426 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: factory in Stafford, which is expanding. There are workforce by 427 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: fifty percent. They said, look, hiring people on the factory 428 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: floor was fine, but really engineers is a hard problem 429 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: because many of the engineers have been over the past 430 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 1: twenty years going into the tech industry because it's the 431 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: cool place, but outside by as well, and now with 432 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: the energy transition, they're trying to make the industry sexy 433 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: again to try and bring in all these engineers, and 434 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,719 Speaker 1: perhaps you unmasch their salaries because they have no option 435 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 1: available to them. So in the hierarchy of solutions, there's 436 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,479 Speaker 1: fixed immigration. If you can. If you can't, well then 437 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: start poaching people from other industries. If you can afford to. 438 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: And if you can't do that, then you start training 439 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: people of all ages, from young people to perhaps people 440 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: who are older and want to come into this industry. 441 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: What other solutions that will we find? 442 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think that a similar issue of perception 443 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 4: or understanding is a problem here. And actually some of 444 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 4: the people we talk to did talk about the fact 445 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 4: that people have been encouraged into maybe more white collar jobs, 446 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 4: and there's been a lot of people going to university. 447 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 4: The sort of prestige associated with a manual job or 448 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 4: a sort of physical job manufacturing job is not as high, 449 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 4: I think, and it's sort of culturally and in society, 450 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 4: and you know, some of the companies we talk to 451 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 4: they are trying to sort of make little tweaks to 452 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 4: try and change that. For example, UK Bick they kind 453 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 4: of identified that there's a perception that engineering is dirty 454 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 4: and you know, involves a lot of oil and. 455 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 3: Mess and dirty hands. 456 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,239 Speaker 4: But actually, you know, in battery world, a lot of 457 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 4: this work goes on in you know, what they call 458 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 4: clean rooms, which are often cleaner than operating theaters, so 459 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 4: you know, about as clean as it gets. So that's 460 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 4: something that they're sort of trying to emphasize. 461 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: And then the Stafford case, they said when they had 462 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: job titles which had the word heavy in it, because transformers, 463 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: at least the ones that they make in Stafford are 464 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: really heavy, but it's not like the engineer has to 465 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: lift it. Their machines to lift it. But the word 466 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: heavy itself was enough to discourage women from applying to 467 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: those jobs. And so one tweak they found that works 468 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: for them is to actually remove the word heavy, and 469 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: more women ended up applying for those roles. 470 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think, you know, that's another potentially relatively 471 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 4: untapped group of people. 472 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 3: We talked earlier about. 473 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 4: The Octopus visit and how you know that was there 474 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 4: was majority men on that course, and that's really not 475 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 4: atypical for the industry. I think the fact that they 476 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 4: have as many women as they have, they actually said, 477 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 4: was a point of pride, even though. 478 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 3: It's still a minority. 479 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 4: And so yeah, I mean, one person whose stories stuck 480 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 4: with me as Samanth bet We talked to her through 481 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 4: one of the utility companies, one of the UK utility 482 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 4: companies that she works for, and you know, she was 483 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 4: a hairdresser. That was her first career out of university, 484 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 4: but she did have that technical background. She'd done computer 485 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 4: science at university but found she didn't really get on 486 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 4: with it. But she was really keen to do something 487 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 4: that was a bit more meaningful, and she felt was 488 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 4: her opportunity to kind of contribute and put something back 489 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 4: for society, and so she kind of grafted her way 490 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 4: back into the tech industry basically and learned on the job, 491 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 4: and now she's a software engineer at Ovo, which is 492 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 4: an energy company in the UK. And I think one 493 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 4: of the things that she said was that actually her 494 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 4: skills as a hairdresser, those soft skills that I think 495 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 4: are sometimes undervalued in society, being able to talk to people, 496 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 4: being able to understand people, are really valuable in that 497 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 4: world as well, because a lot of it is talking 498 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 4: to value engineers, where it's talking to customers, and if 499 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 4: you're really good at that, that makes you really valuable 500 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 4: as an employee and potentially, you know, in the future, 501 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 4: as a manager as well. So there's much more that's 502 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 4: transferable than maybe people realize. 503 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: So typically in our job, we do all this reporting. 504 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 1: We'll sit down, we'll collect all our thoughts, collect all 505 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 1: the reporting, find a way to write the draft so 506 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 1: that it reads like a good story, send it off 507 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: to editors and hope and pray that it is worthy 508 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: of publishing. Well, this one was deemed to be worthy 509 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: of publishing, but before it got published, we did get 510 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 1: a question asked by Aaron Rutkoff, our editor, who said, 511 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: this is a really good set of examples, really nice, 512 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: interesting characters. But don't you think it's a little bit 513 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: milk toast? He said, which is, all the solutions that 514 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: companies are deploying are small solutions. They are not really 515 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: solving the core of the problem, which seems to be 516 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 1: pretty severe. We have people who said, shortage of people 517 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: for this industry is an existing problem. Do you think 518 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: these solutions are actually adding up. 519 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 4: I don't think they're adding up to something that solves 520 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 4: the problem. And I think you hear that level of 521 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 4: urgency when you talk to the people in this industry. 522 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 4: And to sort of go back to the battery example, 523 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 4: there are some really ambitious plans to bring battery manufacturing 524 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 4: to the UK and it's really central. There's a whole 525 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 4: industry of car manufacturing that is, you know, one of 526 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 4: the UK's most significant industrial outputs. Thousands and thousands of 527 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 4: jobs that sits on top of that. So you know, 528 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 4: there's a lot riding on the success of these plants, 529 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 4: and they have quite short that We're only talking about 530 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 4: five years or so in terms of the deadlines for 531 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 4: these things. So they're really trying to do something quite significant, 532 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,719 Speaker 4: really rapidly, with not very much at all. And you know, 533 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 4: talking to Colin Heron, who is the professor at Newcastle University, 534 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 4: he's really involved in these efforts to make sure these 535 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 4: really ambitious big battery manufacturing projects that are sort of 536 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 4: supposed to bring battery manufacturing to the UK have enough 537 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 4: staff and have the right kind of staff and enough 538 00:25:58,440 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 4: skilled staff. 539 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 3: He kind of said, well, we have to do it. 540 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 3: We don't have a choice. 541 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 2: You know. 542 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 4: I said, what happens if it doesn't work? And he said, no, 543 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 4: that's not a possibility. It has to work. I really 544 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 4: admired that determination, but the time deadlines are super short, 545 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 4: and I'm not sure that there has been enough emphasis 546 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 4: on this side of the equation, the people side of 547 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 4: the equation. 548 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: So we talked about how this is a problem for 549 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: Western economies, but it's not quite the same problem for 550 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 1: countries like India and China. 551 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,959 Speaker 4: Why I think one thing that was quite interesting in 552 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 4: China that we found they've actually, to some extent got 553 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 4: the opposite situation where they're getting a lot more applicants 554 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,239 Speaker 4: for the jobs that they have than they have vacancies. So, 555 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 4: you know, there's been a lot of layoffs in the 556 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 4: tech industry recently, so there's a lot of young engineers 557 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 4: who are looking for work, and those jobs are often 558 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 4: sort of transferable across both sectors. For example, State Grid Corp, 559 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 4: which distributes power across most of the country, had over 560 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 4: four hundred thousand applicants or its jobs during twenty twenty 561 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 4: four and it ended up with about twenty six thousand highs. 562 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 4: So you know, that's huge amount of demand for jobs 563 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 4: and applicants coming forward, which is really not something that 564 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 4: you would see for the same jobs in the UK. 565 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, in India where I grew up, students are encouraged 566 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: to get engineering or doctorate degrees as early as possible, 567 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: and so the number of engineers isn't a problem. But 568 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 1: we did talk to an Indian utility in the state 569 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: of Gujarat who said that while there isn't a shortage 570 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: of engineers, there is a shortage of skills that they 571 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: have because the training isn't good enough or the education 572 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: isn't good enough for them to take on the roles, 573 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: and so often they are spending forty five days training 574 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: after their degree to start to do the work on 575 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: the ground. 576 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think you kind of see the cultural 577 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,360 Speaker 4: difference there when you compare it to the US or Europe. 578 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 4: You know, I think that there's not been the same 579 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 4: emphasis on people gaining technical skills or going into technical careers. 580 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 4: University education has become something that funnels people potentially into 581 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 4: other industries, maybe white collaring industries, banking, law, journalism, And 582 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 4: now those countries are sort of waking up a bit, 583 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 4: I think and realizing that the consequence of that is 584 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 4: that they are now reliant on technical processes that are 585 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 4: happening in other countries on the other side of the world, 586 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 4: and they don't control that. You know, I think countries 587 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 4: are sort of waking up and realizing that actually, if 588 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 4: they don't have the skills among their own population to 589 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 4: create these products and carry out these processes that are 590 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 4: really critical to the energy transition, they are then reliant 591 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 4: on trade. They're reliant on trading partners, they're reliant largely 592 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 4: now on China. And you know that looks I think 593 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 4: like a fairly precarious place to be with the world 594 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 4: looking as it is, so it's there's a real urgency 595 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 4: to solving that problem. 596 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 3: I think. 597 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: Well, I didn't expect to end this conversation by you 598 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: making me feel like a trader is somebody who trained 599 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: as an engineer now working as a journalist and wasting 600 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: away my skills, not helping the UK become a trading 601 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: giant that it could be. But this was certainly a 602 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: really fun story to report it. It was months of work, 603 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: but I feel like a really good addition to the 604 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: unusual bottlenecks stopping electrification from happening as fast as it can. 605 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: Thank you, Olivia, thank you very much, and thank you 606 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: for listening to zero. This is the second episode in 607 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: the Bottleneck series. For the third, we'll be looking at 608 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: the shortage of undersea cables. And now for the sound 609 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: of the week. Sitting next to a heatpum that's running 610 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: to say you can hear loud? 611 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 4: They are can you hear it? 612 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: Well? That is the sound of a heat pump, something 613 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: some people say can be pretty loud, but turns out 614 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be. If you like this episode, please 615 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: take a moment to rate and review the show on 616 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Share this episode with a friend 617 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: or with an engineer you know. This episode was produced 618 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: by Oscar Boyd. Bloomberg's head of podcast is Said Bauman 619 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: and head of Talk is Brendan newnham Art. The music 620 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: is composed by Wonderly Special. Thanks to Jessica bec Soamersadi 621 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: Moses Andim and Shawan Wegner. Thanks also to all the 622 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: reporters and editors from Bloomberg News who contributed to this 623 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: featured story. Julia Janiki Eva, Brendel Lou del Bello, Francuas 624 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: de Popoi, Dan Murta, Somnad Bad, Jody Mexin, Emily Busso, 625 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: and Aaron dutkoff I am Akshad Rati bak Soon