WEBVTT - Because It Is My Heart, Part 2 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.200 A heart eight loki. In the embers it lay and 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:08.840 half cooked, found he the woman's heart with child from 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:13.440 the woman Loki soon was, and thence among men came 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:19.000 the monsters. All the sea, storm driven, seeks heaven itself 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:23.280 o'er the earth it flows, The air grows sterile. Then 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:27.240 follow the snows and the furious winds. For the gods 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:31.360 are doomed, and the end is death. Then comes another, 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:35.280 a greater than all. Though never I dare his name 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:39.680 to speak. Few are they now that farther can see 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:46.640 than the moment when Othan shall meet the wolf. Welcome 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:49.320 to stuff to blow your mind production of My Heart radio. 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:58.920 Hey you welcome do stuff to blow your mind. If 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:01.920 my name is Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick. Oh, 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:04.080 where did that poem come from? Rob Is that one 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:08.039 of those Icelandic texts? Yeah? This is um from the 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:12.360 Lay of Hindleam, a Norse poem from the twelfth century 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:15.200 or perhaps a little later. But in this I know 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:17.640 that the wording in this translation can maybe be a 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:22.120 little confusing. Heart is not eating Loki Loki, the you know, 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:26.120 the Norse trickster god is consuming a heart, and after 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:30.560 consuming that heart, he becomes with child, and those children 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.560 are the monsters that plague humanity. I think this poem 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:37.400 is easier to follow if you read it in Yoda voice, 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:42.119 because it follows Yoda syntax heart loki yeah, you know so. 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:44.759 In this poem we see just one example of heart 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:48.760 consumption in Norse mythology. Uh, there are other tales. There 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:51.520 are tales of men eating the bloody hearts of slain 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:54.880 dragons to gain their strength and courage. And this is 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:58.120 a motif we see continued in other European myths as well, 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:01.760 such as that of the Germanic orrow a Cigarette who 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:05.760 consumes the heart of the dragon Fafnir after slaying the monster. 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.720 In one telling of that I um this this kind 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:11.320 of goes back to episodes from last year that will 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:15.560 be rerunning shortly. In one telling of this victory, he 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.360 has the dragon's heart. Um. He cooks it over the 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:20.640 fire too, and so he can eat it, And in 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.919 doing so, he burns his hand on those delicious blood 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:27.200 juices of the heart. And he instinctively licks his hand 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:31.160 because he's been burned, and the taste of the dragon's 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.760 blood is said to give him the ability to understand 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.880 all languages. Oh, this reminds me of the Salmon of Knowledge? 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.840 Is that that the comparison there? Yeah, that's that's I 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:42.920 think the exactly the comparison. I don't remember this coming up. 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:45.080 And there's a lot of a lot of those tales 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:50.360 are interconnected and some of their themes and sometimes the details. Well, 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:53.239 obviously we are back with part two of our series 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:57.560 on the removal of hearts, a topic that Rob you 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:00.840 have brilliantly chosen for the week of valent Hinds Day, 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:04.280 Because as much as we associate with love, with the 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.320 the giving around and the trading of symbolic heart imagery, 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:09.880 we we also do you know, love is a is 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.680 a lot about like getting your heart ripped out? Yeah. Yeah, 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.200 And and of course we love this metaphor is especially 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:19.359 the week of Valentine's Day. Also in the previous episode 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:24.040 we ended up focusing on some various traditions of heart 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:28.760 removal in Uh, in ancient Egyptian religion and in um 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:32.040 as we American context. And today we're going to be 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:34.640 starting off in accordance with the poem you read, looking 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:38.520 at some Norse traditions. That's right, uh, And I found 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.480 a really great book that I used in putting this 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:45.400 section together. It's called A History of the Heart by O. M. 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:49.720 Hoistad of Telemark University College in Norway. The author here 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:54.160 is of Norse descent and frequently mentions that in the book. Uh. 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:56.920 In the book itself doesn't just deal with Norse traditions 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:58.800 of the heart. He also touches on some of the 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:02.600 examples we disc us in the last episode. But uh, 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.600 he spends a lot of time discussing the Norse idea 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:09.320 all of the heart and what what they thought the 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:11.080 heart did, and kind of like the way that these 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:18.800 ideas affected expectations of physiology. So it as Hoisted discusses 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.799 the Norse saw the heart as the seat of courage, 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:24.240 which you know that that squares with a lot of 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:26.159 other traditions as well, and a lot of the way 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:28.840 we way as we talk about the heart metaphorically today, 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:33.320 but it was also seen as the seat of the mind. Now, 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:36.640 obviously we get into into Norse culture and there's there's 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:39.599 a lot in Norse culture beyond the warrior ethos and 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.000 warrior culture. But Hoisted is pretty quick in this book 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:46.000 to say like there was there was a certain ruthless 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:49.240 edge to Norse culture as well, and we see that 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.240 in the way they treated the heart and what Once more, 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:54.480 in reading this, I was reminded again if that C. S. 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.400 Lewis quote that we discussed in the previous episode about 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.400 the unloving heart, how it becomes this dark, sing and 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:06.679 an encased thing that is that is cold and in unflappable, 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:10.080 but also you know, it's it cuts you off from 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:13.760 from any like legitimate feeling and connection. Uh. Yeah, his 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:16.480 point in that quote being that love is by nature 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:21.360 becoming vulnerable, and you can defend yourself against becoming vulnerable, 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:25.080 but that has its own consequences, right the nor I 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:28.080 don't know how the Norse of old would have have 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:30.440 taken that that quote. They would have been like, yeah, 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.479 perhaps steel it, steal that hard off, let it grow 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:37.000 nice and cold because some because that basically is one 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:40.400 of the attributes of the ideal Norse warrior heart. His 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.359 voice stud discusses in the book. In some accounts, it 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:46.360 even seems to have to go beyond the merely metaphorical, 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:49.240 and it seems to be seen as a biological reality, 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:53.680 either the physiological result of bravery or its cause. So 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:57.239 we're talking about a heart that is shriveled, that is cold, 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.279 that is uh, that that doesn't have a lot of 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:05.520 blood in it, and it doesn't quiver. So in the 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:09.440 fullest broader saga, this is the saga of the foster Brothers, 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:11.960 or the saga of the Sworn Brothers. This is a 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:15.279 tale of the eleventh century uh, surviving in a trio 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:19.520 of I think each one is incomplete thirteenth century manuscripts 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.359 um and it's in this particular tale it said that 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:27.040 following the death of a brave warrior named Torre gear Uh, 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:28.840 they take the war, they lay him out. He's like 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:31.200 laid out on a stone or a table or something, 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.640 and they open up his chest so that it could 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.960 be seen what a brave man's heart truly looks like, 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:41.160 because they were curious. Is it is it like they say, 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:44.160 is a brave, courageous man's heart? Is its small? Is 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:46.799 it cold? Is it shriveled? Is it like the heart 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:50.919 of the grinch before it grows three sizes? Is it 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:52.719 in fact free of the blood that would cause it 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:56.520 to to quiver and uh and then make one a coward? Um? 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:58.839 Or is it indeed you have the small, firm, cold 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:01.520 heart of a warrior. And in this account, supposedly this 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:03.240 is exactly what they find. They kind of open then 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:05.440 they say, yes, it's all true, like look at this heart. 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:09.040 Behold this shriveled cold heart of a warrior. And uh 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:11.640 so Hoist discusses this a betty. He references some other 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:15.800 um accounts. There's the U one of the Norse warrior 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:19.000 heart from the hell Gay saga. Uh this a quick 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:22.240 quote from that quote. Fearless was he bold for battle? 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:26.480 Bone hard, his heart within his breast. Now he stresses, 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:28.200 in this case this is more of a metaphor than 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:32.280 anatomical commentary. But he cites the work of a Norse 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:36.760 historian named Claus Fonsi on the idea that courage and 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:40.600 cowardice can still be thought of in Norse thought to 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:44.960 stem from quote purely anatomical relations. So to quote of 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:47.520 a SI on this quote. The important thing for the 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:51.200 present argument is that the metaphors mentioned refer to the 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:54.800 anatomical composition of the heart, and that they see in 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:59.160 its smallness, hardness, and absence of blood a cause of 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:03.640 courage and not only a symptom of it. Okay, so 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:09.760 it is because your interior organs have certain properties that uh, 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.080 that certain behaviors emerging you. And so for a warrior 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.640 who's very courageous and uh and very strong in battle, 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:19.280 it just happens to be because their heart is this 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:24.040 I see little nugget. Yeah. Oh and speaking of of 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:26.520 via I c nuggets. Uh. He also points to the 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:29.840 giant Rugney in Norse mythology, who is said to be 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:32.560 the strongest of all the giants because he has a 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:36.360 heart of literal stone. That, yeah, that'll do it. And 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:39.000 he also gets into this account of Rugney going up 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:42.280 against Thor and and and so Rugney is really strong, 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:44.440 but he knows that Thor also has a really tough 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:47.600 heart and has these you know, a magical um you know, 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:50.800 God given um hammer and so forth and some other 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:52.920 magical items. They didn't want to go up into a 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:55.120 direct battle against them, so they're like, build a giant 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:57.320 and that then they have to give it a heart, 0:08:57.520 --> 0:08:59.360 but no, no hearts are available, So they put a 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:01.440 mayor's heart in there, and it doesn't work, like it 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.800 just throws off the whole construct, but they're there and 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:10.880 then sorry, it's like you get the wrong voltage battery. Yeah. Basically, um, 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.959 you know, and I think that's in that we get back. 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:16.840 You know, we're talking about some of the the interpretations 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:18.160 of the heart and its role in the body and 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:21.480 the person that are more magical and and maybe to 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.640 modern eyes and scientific understanding, a little backwards. But at 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:26.800 the same time, they do realize that there is something 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.840 about the heart that that powers everything. It is the 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.400 center of the being, even if contrary to uh, this 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:35.280 one leg of Norse's thought, it has nothing to do 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:39.000 with with one's mind exactly. And as we talked about 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.559 in the last episode, it is scientifically true that feedback 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:46.240 from organs other than the brain contributes to the way 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:49.160 the brain works. So uh, I think the way we 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:50.920 put it last time is that you know, the brain 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:54.920 is the necessary organ for cognition. You couldn't think without it. 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:57.600 But also it doesn't think in a vacuum. It's influenced 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:00.400 by organs throughout the body. So the digestive sys them 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:03.240 has influence on how the brain works, how you feel, 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:06.280 how you think, and the cardiovascular system does as well, 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:08.080 your heart and your lungs and all that. So I 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.760 think there is for example, I mean, I think courage 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:12.880 and cowardice would be a great example because that would 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.160 involve the the fight or flight response, which of course 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:19.800 is based in the nervous system, but then involves feedback 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:23.000 loops from organs throughout the body. And it does indeed 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:28.840 include UH regulation of the circulatory and UH and respiration systems. 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.559 So in a way, you are sort of getting feedback 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.840 from the heart when you're feeling fear. Yeah, yeah, and 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:37.280 and uh and and I think we've discussed this before, 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.360 but I think it would be a mistake too to 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:43.640 think that the Norse had like a simplistic understanding of, say, um, 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:45.920 that the human inner experience, because you also look at 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:49.720 things like the idea that of of Odin's crows. Um, 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.800 what were their names, Hoogan and moon In. I think, um, 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:57.080 I'm probably mispronouncing them. But um, we discussed this in 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:01.040 the past, how each one has a different connotation dealing 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:10.360 with like the mind and memory as about it. Thank 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:14.600 thank So We're gonna move on from most of the 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.319 North examples here, but we are going to get into 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:20.520 another European example of heart removal, one that I wasn't 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:25.080 familiar with until basically researching these episodes. Right, So, uh, 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:29.000 we're gonna talk about heart burial or the Treatment of 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:33.520 the Heart in Medieval and post Medieval Christian Europe. Now 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:36.319 a major source I was consulting on this was a 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:40.520 chapter in a collection of archaeology essays. The book that 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.240 it's from is called Body Parts and Bodies Whole. That 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:48.760 was from Oxbo Books, that's an Oxford Press UH in 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:53.559 two thousand and ten and the editors were Katerina Rebe Salisbury, 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.840 Marie Louise Stig Sorensen and Jessica Hughes and UH. The 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.520 specific chapter in quest and is called Heart Burial and 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:05.640 Medieval and early post Medieval Central Europe by A Stella 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.560 Weiss Crecy, and I looked at up. She's a scholar 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:12.360 affiliated with the Austrian Academy of Sciences and the Austrian 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:18.240 Archaeological Institute. So between the introduction of Christianity in Europe 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:25.120 and roughly the nineteenth century, the usually near universal ideal 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:30.080 for burial practices in Europe in Christian Europe was straightforward 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:35.040 burial of the body whole with flesh intact. And their 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:37.360 exceptions to this we're going to talk about, but that 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:41.400 was basically the norm. And this could be connected in 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:47.720 part to Christian beliefs about the afterlife, because strangely today, 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:50.640 I think if you ask most Christians what they believe 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:54.480 happens after death, they will say that their immaterial soul 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:57.800 separates from the body and goes off to live in 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.160 Heaven with God for eternity. And under this way of thinking, 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:04.200 the body is not important. It's just it's just sort 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.000 of the matter that the soul uses to live through, 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:11.120 and the afterlife will not have a material basis. But 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:14.600 this is not what the earliest Christians by and large believed, 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:17.840 and this is not what's described in the earliest Christian texts. 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:22.079 They instead speak of what theologians uh often call a 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:25.600 general resurrection, that at the the end of the age, 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.600 all of the dead, the righteous and the unrighteous will 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:33.240 be resurrected in bodily form to face judgment. Though confusingly, 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:35.800 the apostle Paul writes that it will be a kind 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:40.000 of changed bodily form, because the present earthly flesh and 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.120 bones that we have now are perishable, and so they 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.760 can't inherit the kingdom. And yet we will be raised 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:48.600 in bodily forms. So when our bodies are raised from 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.640 the dead, we will be given new spiritual flesh, which 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:56.600 is imperishable, synthetic flesh. You could look at it that way, 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.960 but anyway, so, it was commonly understood by the dama 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.920 at schools of early Christian theologians that the afterlife for 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:07.360 believers would consist of some form of bodily resurrection, even 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.840 if the body is changed somehow, thus giving rise to 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:14.320 a desire for funeral practices that would keep the body 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:19.440 relatively intact. And I think, knowing that I would never 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.040 have conceived that that heart removal would be in the 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:26.040 cards at all. Well, I think various procedures that in 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:29.640 some way violate the wholeness or integrity of the body 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:34.440 were controversial with certain people at certain times. Uh. And 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:36.240 by the way, I want to say this whole thing 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.600 about like the body. This leads to a great digression 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:44.840 on the implications for cannibalism in early Christian thought, because like, okay, 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.400 what if you are saved, but then you are killed 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:51.400 and eaten by a cannibal and your body becomes part 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:55.000 of the body of the cannibal. What will happen at 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:58.280 the resurrection? Or what if two cannibals eat a Christian 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:01.960 and then together the who cannibals have a baby? The 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:04.800 baby will be made of parts of the Christian that 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.200 the parents ate, So how will God retrieve the bits 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:10.680 of the Christian from the baby's body and so forth? 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:14.640 Like Thomas Aquinas participated in discussions about topics of this 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:19.720 sort and it's a hoot. But anyway, one interesting area 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:26.160 we see the theological implications of Europe shifting from mostly 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:30.880 pagan to mostly Christian is in attitudes toward funeral practices, 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:35.840 specifically towards cremation. Um because apart from the literal implications 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.480 for the possibility of future resurrection, and there were different 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:40.920 ideas about this. You know, some Christian theologians did not 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:44.760 place as much importance on the integrity of the body. Uh, 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:47.240 you know, some just didn't think it was a big deal. 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:49.120 I think Augustine didn't think it was a big deal. 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:53.880 But anyway, uh, cremation was not only a way of 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:56.760 destroying the body, including in a way destroying the bones, 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.640 but also just sort of it was it was culturally 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:03.640 a soociated with paganism. It was something that the pagans did, 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:07.120 and thus it was viewed as alien and unholy by 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:11.400 Christian rulers. So for example, in the seven eighties, and 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:13.920 I've seen two different years given for the seven five 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.720 and seven eighty nine. I'm not sure why the difference 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.680 or which one is correct, but sometimes in the seven eighties, 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.240 the Christian king Charlemagne, who eventually style himself as the 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:27.280 Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, band of the practice 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:32.080 of cremation of the dead as as practiced by the Saxons. 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.960 And I was looking for a quote of this edict. 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:39.200 I found it quoted in something called European Paganism The 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:42.000 Realities of Cult from Antiquity to the Middle Ages by 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:47.640 Ken Dowden Poli and this quotes it in translation as follows. 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:50.720 If anyone causes the body of a dead man to 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:54.160 be consumed by flame according to the right of the Pagans, 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.960 and shall reduce its bones to ashes, he shall suffer 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:03.560 capital punishment. So that's harsh. Cre cremating a friend or 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:07.600 family member's body is punishable by death. So you get 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:12.960 the idea of how strongly intact burial was was linked 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:17.560 to cultural and religious orthodoxy in much of Christian Europe. Yeah, 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.679 at the point that it needs to be enforced, apparently 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:24.160 with the death penalty. Um, yeah, you know, I guess 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:26.800 drawing just this this firm line that needs to be 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:30.480 enforced uh in the view of the time between us 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:33.560 and them. But to come back to White preaches article, 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:38.760 despite intact burial being the norm, there were countercurrents of 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:43.640 thinking and practice, both for cultural and theological reasons. Like again, 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:46.240 there were some people who didn't think the intactedness of 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:49.560 the body was as important as others did, and for 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:54.760 purely practical reasons. For example, practical reasons would include space 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:59.000 real estate. There was the common practice of removal of 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.160 bones from a aerial place to be to be taken 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:05.199 away to a charnel house because you know, there's just 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.200 not enough space for all the bodies in the cemetery. Yeah. Absolutely, 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:09.440 And this is I mean, this is something you see 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:11.399 in cultures around the world where there might be some 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.600 sort of uh predominant idea about how the dead should 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.400 be buried. But you're gonna then come up against basic 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:23.000 environmental constraints on that practice as well as size constraints 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:27.639 based on various factors. Exactly. And I've got another practical 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:33.880 time and place, time, place and manner uh constraint on 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.280 what can be done with a body, and that would 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:42.200 be processing the body in some way to delay putrefaction. Uh. 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:45.760 This was to to preserve the corpse for some reason, 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:50.080 often either for public display or for transport across a 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.640 long distance. And some of these forms of processing, Okay, 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:56.080 you can imagine some types of just like embalming to 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.240 make the corpse last as long as possible. But sometimes 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.359 this was a little more involved than that and could 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:05.720 be thought to violate the the integrity of the body 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:09.800 as a whole. Sometimes it involved removing things or even 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:13.800 more extreme forms of processing, and these practices get weirder 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:16.320 than you might imagine. So some of what we're talking 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:20.159 about here is just disembowelment, removal of the internal organs 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:23.959 from the abdominal cavity. Wise, Creachy says that this this 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:26.560 became common in the Frankish Empire in the eighth and 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.600 ninth centuries. So you take the guts out, or take 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:32.320 all the internal organs out, that might have some kind 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:36.080 of implication for preserving the rest of the body, uh 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:38.600 for for a certain period of time to do something with. 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.040 But in the twelfth century we see the rise of 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:47.960 a practice called most teutonicus, which translates to the German custom. 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:52.000 What is this custom of the Germans? It was boiling 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:57.879 the honored dead. Sometimes a here's an example of how 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:00.639 it would be used. Sometimes a high ranking warrior or 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:05.240 commander would die on a campaign in southern Europe or 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:08.639 in the Holy Land, far away from home. How are 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:11.840 his retainers going to get the cadaver back to the 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:16.439 crypt at the family estate. The German speaking crusaders often 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:19.639 did not want to be buried away from home, you know, 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:21.800 in the place where they were crusading. They wanted to 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:25.280 be buried back at home. The body would obviously rot 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:28.359 if it were transported intact or you know, by card 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:30.800 or even by ship, trying to take it all the 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:34.080 way back to Germany or Austria, wherever the warrior came from. 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:36.639 So people came up with the solution of making that 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:41.160 warrior into a bone broth. Uh, you would have crusader stock. 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:45.159 So imagine Conrad here dies in battle trying to sack 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.639 a Muslim city in Syria, and his servants or his 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:53.159 kinsman get his body and they boil it until the 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:55.840 You can be boiled in water or in like vinegar 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:58.280 or wine, or I think sometimes in milk, but in 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.520 some kind of liquid. You boil it until the flesh 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:05.199 starts to separate from the bones, and then somehow you 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:06.960 get the bones clean. I guess you if you boil 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.600 it long enough, just basically everything will float off. Or 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:11.720 you could boil it for a period and then it 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:15.159 might require some additional scraping with sharp instruments, but you 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:17.600 would boil first to get the meat off, and then 0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:21.280 you'd have clean, hygienic bones that could be taken back 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:25.639 to the estate in in Europe for deposition. Yeah. To 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:28.439 your point about the stock, we're really close to just 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:32.760 to butchering here this. Yeah, And sometimes I've read that 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:35.280 this was not in this book chapter I'm talking about. 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:39.200 I read somewhere that sometimes the organs from this were 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:41.840 discarded and other times the organs in the flesh were 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:45.880 preserved like you might preserve a meat, like by salting them, uh, 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:48.119 so that they could be transported somewhere, maybe to be 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:51.840 buried separately. Wow, you know, this seems like a whole 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:55.720 area of that is that is overdue for exploration and 0:21:55.760 --> 0:22:00.160 some sort of undead um you know, templar fick shit 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:04.359 or something. You know. Um, you could have the skeletal 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:08.520 reanimated remains of this crusader. And what does he want, 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:11.760 while he wants his salted organs back, give me my 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:17.840 body back in sausage forms his sausage now, uh, and 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:21.040 how fitting for a German speaking medieval noble to become 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:25.560 a sausage in death. But anyway, so most teutonic Us, 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:28.800 by I guess its advocates, was thought to avoid violating 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:34.480 the prohibition against cremation, as specifically Charlemagne's prohibition. Uh, because 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:36.879 of course it did not involve destruction of the bones. 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:38.840 You would not be reducing the bones to ashes. The 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:41.359 bones would be intact. So I think that's good enough. 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:43.720 You know, the body is intact enough to to be 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:48.240 considered okay and not pagan. But some church officials still 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:52.080 didn't like it, and it was ultimately forbidden as uh 0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:57.399 disgusting and unfitting of of proper disposal of the dead 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:00.760 by the pope in twelve and their teen hundreds. So 0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:04.080 this would have been Pope I was wondering how to 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:08.600 say this, Boniface, Boniface, I guess Boniface eight. I was 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:11.760 looking for a translation of the original text of this 0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:14.919 edict as well, and so what I came across was 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:18.280 part of a papal bull from hundred called bulld de 0:23:18.359 --> 0:23:21.439 Semple Tourists, which was quoted in a paper called The 0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:24.520 Popes and the History of Anatomy by James J. Walsh, 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:27.159 published in nineteen o four in the Medical Library and 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:31.399 Historical Journal, and the translation of the paper Bull says, 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:35.600 persons cutting up the bodies of the dead barbarously cooking 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:38.199