1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: A heart eight loki. In the embers it lay and 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: half cooked, found he the woman's heart with child from 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: the woman Loki soon was, and thence among men came 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: the monsters. All the sea, storm driven, seeks heaven itself 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: o'er the earth it flows, The air grows sterile. Then 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: follow the snows and the furious winds. For the gods 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: are doomed, and the end is death. Then comes another, 8 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: a greater than all. Though never I dare his name 9 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: to speak. Few are they now that farther can see 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: than the moment when Othan shall meet the wolf. Welcome 11 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: to stuff to blow your mind production of My Heart radio. 12 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome do stuff to blow your mind. If 13 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: my name is Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick. Oh, 14 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: where did that poem come from? Rob Is that one 15 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: of those Icelandic texts? Yeah? This is um from the 16 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: Lay of Hindleam, a Norse poem from the twelfth century 17 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: or perhaps a little later. But in this I know 18 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: that the wording in this translation can maybe be a 19 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: little confusing. Heart is not eating Loki Loki, the you know, 20 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: the Norse trickster god is consuming a heart, and after 21 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: consuming that heart, he becomes with child, and those children 22 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: are the monsters that plague humanity. I think this poem 23 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 1: is easier to follow if you read it in Yoda voice, 24 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:42,119 Speaker 1: because it follows Yoda syntax heart loki yeah, you know so. 25 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: In this poem we see just one example of heart 26 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: consumption in Norse mythology. Uh, there are other tales. There 27 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: are tales of men eating the bloody hearts of slain 28 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: dragons to gain their strength and courage. And this is 29 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: a motif we see continued in other European myths as well, 30 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: such as that of the Germanic orrow a Cigarette who 31 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: consumes the heart of the dragon Fafnir after slaying the monster. 32 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: In one telling of that I um this this kind 33 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: of goes back to episodes from last year that will 34 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: be rerunning shortly. In one telling of this victory, he 35 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: has the dragon's heart. Um. He cooks it over the 36 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: fire too, and so he can eat it, And in 37 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 1: doing so, he burns his hand on those delicious blood 38 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: juices of the heart. And he instinctively licks his hand 39 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: because he's been burned, and the taste of the dragon's 40 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: blood is said to give him the ability to understand 41 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: all languages. Oh, this reminds me of the Salmon of Knowledge? 42 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: Is that that the comparison there? Yeah, that's that's I 43 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: think the exactly the comparison. I don't remember this coming up. 44 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of a lot of those tales 45 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: are interconnected and some of their themes and sometimes the details. Well, 46 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,239 Speaker 1: obviously we are back with part two of our series 47 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: on the removal of hearts, a topic that Rob you 48 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: have brilliantly chosen for the week of valent Hinds Day, 49 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: Because as much as we associate with love, with the 50 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: the giving around and the trading of symbolic heart imagery, 51 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: we we also do you know, love is a is 52 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: a lot about like getting your heart ripped out? Yeah. Yeah, 53 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: And and of course we love this metaphor is especially 54 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: the week of Valentine's Day. Also in the previous episode 55 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: we ended up focusing on some various traditions of heart 56 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: removal in Uh, in ancient Egyptian religion and in um 57 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: as we American context. And today we're going to be 58 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: starting off in accordance with the poem you read, looking 59 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: at some Norse traditions. That's right, uh, And I found 60 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: a really great book that I used in putting this 61 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: section together. It's called A History of the Heart by O. M. 62 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: Hoistad of Telemark University College in Norway. The author here 63 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: is of Norse descent and frequently mentions that in the book. Uh. 64 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: In the book itself doesn't just deal with Norse traditions 65 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: of the heart. He also touches on some of the 66 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: examples we disc us in the last episode. But uh, 67 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: he spends a lot of time discussing the Norse idea 68 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: all of the heart and what what they thought the 69 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: heart did, and kind of like the way that these 70 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: ideas affected expectations of physiology. So it as Hoisted discusses 71 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,799 Speaker 1: the Norse saw the heart as the seat of courage, 72 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: which you know that that squares with a lot of 73 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: other traditions as well, and a lot of the way 74 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: we way as we talk about the heart metaphorically today, 75 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: but it was also seen as the seat of the mind. Now, 76 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: obviously we get into into Norse culture and there's there's 77 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: a lot in Norse culture beyond the warrior ethos and 78 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: warrior culture. But Hoisted is pretty quick in this book 79 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: to say like there was there was a certain ruthless 80 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: edge to Norse culture as well, and we see that 81 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: in the way they treated the heart and what Once more, 82 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: in reading this, I was reminded again if that C. S. 83 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: Lewis quote that we discussed in the previous episode about 84 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: the unloving heart, how it becomes this dark, sing and 85 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:06,679 Speaker 1: an encased thing that is that is cold and in unflappable, 86 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: but also you know, it's it cuts you off from 87 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: from any like legitimate feeling and connection. Uh. Yeah, his 88 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: point in that quote being that love is by nature 89 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: becoming vulnerable, and you can defend yourself against becoming vulnerable, 90 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: but that has its own consequences, right the nor I 91 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: don't know how the Norse of old would have have 92 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: taken that that quote. They would have been like, yeah, 93 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: perhaps steel it, steal that hard off, let it grow 94 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: nice and cold because some because that basically is one 95 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: of the attributes of the ideal Norse warrior heart. His 96 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: voice stud discusses in the book. In some accounts, it 97 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: even seems to have to go beyond the merely metaphorical, 98 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: and it seems to be seen as a biological reality, 99 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: either the physiological result of bravery or its cause. So 100 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,239 Speaker 1: we're talking about a heart that is shriveled, that is cold, 101 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: that is uh, that that doesn't have a lot of 102 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: blood in it, and it doesn't quiver. So in the 103 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: fullest broader saga, this is the saga of the foster Brothers, 104 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: or the saga of the Sworn Brothers. This is a 105 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: tale of the eleventh century uh, surviving in a trio 106 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: of I think each one is incomplete thirteenth century manuscripts 107 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 1: um and it's in this particular tale it said that 108 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: following the death of a brave warrior named Torre gear Uh, 109 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: they take the war, they lay him out. He's like 110 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: laid out on a stone or a table or something, 111 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: and they open up his chest so that it could 112 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: be seen what a brave man's heart truly looks like, 113 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: because they were curious. Is it is it like they say, 114 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: is a brave, courageous man's heart? Is its small? Is 115 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,799 Speaker 1: it cold? Is it shriveled? Is it like the heart 116 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 1: of the grinch before it grows three sizes? Is it 117 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: in fact free of the blood that would cause it 118 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: to to quiver and uh and then make one a coward? Um? 119 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: Or is it indeed you have the small, firm, cold 120 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: heart of a warrior. And in this account, supposedly this 121 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: is exactly what they find. They kind of open then 122 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: they say, yes, it's all true, like look at this heart. 123 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: Behold this shriveled cold heart of a warrior. And uh 124 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: so Hoist discusses this a betty. He references some other 125 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: um accounts. There's the U one of the Norse warrior 126 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: heart from the hell Gay saga. Uh this a quick 127 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: quote from that quote. Fearless was he bold for battle? 128 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: Bone hard, his heart within his breast. Now he stresses, 129 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: in this case this is more of a metaphor than 130 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: anatomical commentary. But he cites the work of a Norse 131 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: historian named Claus Fonsi on the idea that courage and 132 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: cowardice can still be thought of in Norse thought to 133 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: stem from quote purely anatomical relations. So to quote of 134 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: a SI on this quote. The important thing for the 135 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: present argument is that the metaphors mentioned refer to the 136 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: anatomical composition of the heart, and that they see in 137 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: its smallness, hardness, and absence of blood a cause of 138 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: courage and not only a symptom of it. Okay, so 139 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: it is because your interior organs have certain properties that uh, 140 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: that certain behaviors emerging you. And so for a warrior 141 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: who's very courageous and uh and very strong in battle, 142 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: it just happens to be because their heart is this 143 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: I see little nugget. Yeah. Oh and speaking of of 144 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: via I c nuggets. Uh. He also points to the 145 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: giant Rugney in Norse mythology, who is said to be 146 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: the strongest of all the giants because he has a 147 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: heart of literal stone. That, yeah, that'll do it. And 148 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: he also gets into this account of Rugney going up 149 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: against Thor and and and so Rugney is really strong, 150 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: but he knows that Thor also has a really tough 151 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: heart and has these you know, a magical um you know, 152 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: God given um hammer and so forth and some other 153 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: magical items. They didn't want to go up into a 154 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: direct battle against them, so they're like, build a giant 155 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: and that then they have to give it a heart, 156 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: but no, no hearts are available, So they put a 157 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: mayor's heart in there, and it doesn't work, like it 158 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: just throws off the whole construct, but they're there and 159 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: then sorry, it's like you get the wrong voltage battery. Yeah. Basically, um, 160 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 1: you know, and I think that's in that we get back. 161 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: You know, we're talking about some of the the interpretations 162 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: of the heart and its role in the body and 163 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: the person that are more magical and and maybe to 164 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: modern eyes and scientific understanding, a little backwards. But at 165 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: the same time, they do realize that there is something 166 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: about the heart that that powers everything. It is the 167 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: center of the being, even if contrary to uh, this 168 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: one leg of Norse's thought, it has nothing to do 169 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: with with one's mind exactly. And as we talked about 170 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,559 Speaker 1: in the last episode, it is scientifically true that feedback 171 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: from organs other than the brain contributes to the way 172 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: the brain works. So uh, I think the way we 173 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: put it last time is that you know, the brain 174 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: is the necessary organ for cognition. You couldn't think without it. 175 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: But also it doesn't think in a vacuum. It's influenced 176 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: by organs throughout the body. So the digestive sys them 177 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: has influence on how the brain works, how you feel, 178 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: how you think, and the cardiovascular system does as well, 179 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: your heart and your lungs and all that. So I 180 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: think there is for example, I mean, I think courage 181 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: and cowardice would be a great example because that would 182 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: involve the the fight or flight response, which of course 183 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: is based in the nervous system, but then involves feedback 184 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: loops from organs throughout the body. And it does indeed 185 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: include UH regulation of the circulatory and UH and respiration systems. 186 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 1: So in a way, you are sort of getting feedback 187 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: from the heart when you're feeling fear. Yeah, yeah, and 188 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: and uh and and I think we've discussed this before, 189 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: but I think it would be a mistake too to 190 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: think that the Norse had like a simplistic understanding of, say, um, 191 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: that the human inner experience, because you also look at 192 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: things like the idea that of of Odin's crows. Um, 193 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: what were their names, Hoogan and moon In. I think, um, 194 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: I'm probably mispronouncing them. But um, we discussed this in 195 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: the past, how each one has a different connotation dealing 196 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: with like the mind and memory as about it. Thank 197 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: thank So We're gonna move on from most of the 198 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 1: North examples here, but we are going to get into 199 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: another European example of heart removal, one that I wasn't 200 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: familiar with until basically researching these episodes. Right, So, uh, 201 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about heart burial or the Treatment of 202 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: the Heart in Medieval and post Medieval Christian Europe. Now 203 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 1: a major source I was consulting on this was a 204 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: chapter in a collection of archaeology essays. The book that 205 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: it's from is called Body Parts and Bodies Whole. That 206 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: was from Oxbo Books, that's an Oxford Press UH in 207 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 1: two thousand and ten and the editors were Katerina Rebe Salisbury, 208 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: Marie Louise Stig Sorensen and Jessica Hughes and UH. The 209 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: specific chapter in quest and is called Heart Burial and 210 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: Medieval and early post Medieval Central Europe by A Stella 211 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: Weiss Crecy, and I looked at up. She's a scholar 212 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: affiliated with the Austrian Academy of Sciences and the Austrian 213 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: Archaeological Institute. So between the introduction of Christianity in Europe 214 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: and roughly the nineteenth century, the usually near universal ideal 215 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: for burial practices in Europe in Christian Europe was straightforward 216 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: burial of the body whole with flesh intact. And their 217 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: exceptions to this we're going to talk about, but that 218 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: was basically the norm. And this could be connected in 219 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: part to Christian beliefs about the afterlife, because strangely today, 220 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: I think if you ask most Christians what they believe 221 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: happens after death, they will say that their immaterial soul 222 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: separates from the body and goes off to live in 223 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: Heaven with God for eternity. And under this way of thinking, 224 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: the body is not important. It's just it's just sort 225 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: of the matter that the soul uses to live through, 226 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: and the afterlife will not have a material basis. But 227 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: this is not what the earliest Christians by and large believed, 228 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: and this is not what's described in the earliest Christian texts. 229 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 1: They instead speak of what theologians uh often call a 230 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: general resurrection, that at the the end of the age, 231 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: all of the dead, the righteous and the unrighteous will 232 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: be resurrected in bodily form to face judgment. Though confusingly, 233 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: the apostle Paul writes that it will be a kind 234 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: of changed bodily form, because the present earthly flesh and 235 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: bones that we have now are perishable, and so they 236 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: can't inherit the kingdom. And yet we will be raised 237 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: in bodily forms. So when our bodies are raised from 238 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: the dead, we will be given new spiritual flesh, which 239 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: is imperishable, synthetic flesh. You could look at it that way, 240 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: but anyway, so, it was commonly understood by the dama 241 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: at schools of early Christian theologians that the afterlife for 242 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: believers would consist of some form of bodily resurrection, even 243 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: if the body is changed somehow, thus giving rise to 244 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: a desire for funeral practices that would keep the body 245 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: relatively intact. And I think, knowing that I would never 246 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: have conceived that that heart removal would be in the 247 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: cards at all. Well, I think various procedures that in 248 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: some way violate the wholeness or integrity of the body 249 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: were controversial with certain people at certain times. Uh. And 250 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: by the way, I want to say this whole thing 251 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: about like the body. This leads to a great digression 252 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: on the implications for cannibalism in early Christian thought, because like, okay, 253 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: what if you are saved, but then you are killed 254 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: and eaten by a cannibal and your body becomes part 255 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: of the body of the cannibal. What will happen at 256 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: the resurrection? Or what if two cannibals eat a Christian 257 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: and then together the who cannibals have a baby? The 258 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: baby will be made of parts of the Christian that 259 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: the parents ate, So how will God retrieve the bits 260 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: of the Christian from the baby's body and so forth? 261 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: Like Thomas Aquinas participated in discussions about topics of this 262 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: sort and it's a hoot. But anyway, one interesting area 263 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: we see the theological implications of Europe shifting from mostly 264 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: pagan to mostly Christian is in attitudes toward funeral practices, 265 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: specifically towards cremation. Um because apart from the literal implications 266 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: for the possibility of future resurrection, and there were different 267 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: ideas about this. You know, some Christian theologians did not 268 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: place as much importance on the integrity of the body. Uh, 269 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: you know, some just didn't think it was a big deal. 270 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: I think Augustine didn't think it was a big deal. 271 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: But anyway, uh, cremation was not only a way of 272 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: destroying the body, including in a way destroying the bones, 273 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: but also just sort of it was it was culturally 274 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: a soociated with paganism. It was something that the pagans did, 275 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: and thus it was viewed as alien and unholy by 276 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: Christian rulers. So for example, in the seven eighties, and 277 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: I've seen two different years given for the seven five 278 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: and seven eighty nine. I'm not sure why the difference 279 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: or which one is correct, but sometimes in the seven eighties, 280 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: the Christian king Charlemagne, who eventually style himself as the 281 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, band of the practice 282 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: of cremation of the dead as as practiced by the Saxons. 283 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: And I was looking for a quote of this edict. 284 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: I found it quoted in something called European Paganism The 285 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: Realities of Cult from Antiquity to the Middle Ages by 286 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: Ken Dowden Poli and this quotes it in translation as follows. 287 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: If anyone causes the body of a dead man to 288 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: be consumed by flame according to the right of the Pagans, 289 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: and shall reduce its bones to ashes, he shall suffer 290 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: capital punishment. So that's harsh. Cre cremating a friend or 291 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: family member's body is punishable by death. So you get 292 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: the idea of how strongly intact burial was was linked 293 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: to cultural and religious orthodoxy in much of Christian Europe. Yeah, 294 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 1: at the point that it needs to be enforced, apparently 295 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: with the death penalty. Um, yeah, you know, I guess 296 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: drawing just this this firm line that needs to be 297 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: enforced uh in the view of the time between us 298 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: and them. But to come back to White preaches article, 299 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: despite intact burial being the norm, there were countercurrents of 300 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: thinking and practice, both for cultural and theological reasons. Like again, 301 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: there were some people who didn't think the intactedness of 302 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: the body was as important as others did, and for 303 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: purely practical reasons. For example, practical reasons would include space 304 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: real estate. There was the common practice of removal of 305 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: bones from a aerial place to be to be taken 306 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: away to a charnel house because you know, there's just 307 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: not enough space for all the bodies in the cemetery. Yeah. Absolutely, 308 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: And this is I mean, this is something you see 309 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: in cultures around the world where there might be some 310 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: sort of uh predominant idea about how the dead should 311 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,400 Speaker 1: be buried. But you're gonna then come up against basic 312 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: environmental constraints on that practice as well as size constraints 313 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: based on various factors. Exactly. And I've got another practical 314 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 1: time and place, time, place and manner uh constraint on 315 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: what can be done with a body, and that would 316 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: be processing the body in some way to delay putrefaction. Uh. 317 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: This was to to preserve the corpse for some reason, 318 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: often either for public display or for transport across a 319 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 1: long distance. And some of these forms of processing, Okay, 320 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: you can imagine some types of just like embalming to 321 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: make the corpse last as long as possible. But sometimes 322 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: this was a little more involved than that and could 323 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: be thought to violate the the integrity of the body 324 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: as a whole. Sometimes it involved removing things or even 325 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: more extreme forms of processing, and these practices get weirder 326 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: than you might imagine. So some of what we're talking 327 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 1: about here is just disembowelment, removal of the internal organs 328 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 1: from the abdominal cavity. Wise, Creachy says that this this 329 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: became common in the Frankish Empire in the eighth and 330 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: ninth centuries. So you take the guts out, or take 331 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: all the internal organs out, that might have some kind 332 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: of implication for preserving the rest of the body, uh 333 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: for for a certain period of time to do something with. 334 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: But in the twelfth century we see the rise of 335 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: a practice called most teutonicus, which translates to the German custom. 336 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: What is this custom of the Germans? It was boiling 337 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: the honored dead. Sometimes a here's an example of how 338 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: it would be used. Sometimes a high ranking warrior or 339 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: commander would die on a campaign in southern Europe or 340 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: in the Holy Land, far away from home. How are 341 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: his retainers going to get the cadaver back to the 342 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 1: crypt at the family estate. The German speaking crusaders often 343 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: did not want to be buried away from home, you know, 344 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: in the place where they were crusading. They wanted to 345 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: be buried back at home. The body would obviously rot 346 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: if it were transported intact or you know, by card 347 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: or even by ship, trying to take it all the 348 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: way back to Germany or Austria, wherever the warrior came from. 349 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: So people came up with the solution of making that 350 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: warrior into a bone broth. Uh, you would have crusader stock. 351 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 1: So imagine Conrad here dies in battle trying to sack 352 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: a Muslim city in Syria, and his servants or his 353 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: kinsman get his body and they boil it until the 354 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: You can be boiled in water or in like vinegar 355 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: or wine, or I think sometimes in milk, but in 356 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: some kind of liquid. You boil it until the flesh 357 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 1: starts to separate from the bones, and then somehow you 358 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: get the bones clean. I guess you if you boil 359 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: it long enough, just basically everything will float off. Or 360 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: you could boil it for a period and then it 361 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 1: might require some additional scraping with sharp instruments, but you 362 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: would boil first to get the meat off, and then 363 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: you'd have clean, hygienic bones that could be taken back 364 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: to the estate in in Europe for deposition. Yeah. To 365 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: your point about the stock, we're really close to just 366 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: to butchering here this. Yeah, And sometimes I've read that 367 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: this was not in this book chapter I'm talking about. 368 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: I read somewhere that sometimes the organs from this were 369 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: discarded and other times the organs in the flesh were 370 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 1: preserved like you might preserve a meat, like by salting them, uh, 371 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: so that they could be transported somewhere, maybe to be 372 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: buried separately. Wow, you know, this seems like a whole 373 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: area of that is that is overdue for exploration and 374 00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:00,160 Speaker 1: some sort of undead um you know, templar fick shit 375 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: or something. You know. Um, you could have the skeletal 376 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: reanimated remains of this crusader. And what does he want, 377 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: while he wants his salted organs back, give me my 378 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: body back in sausage forms his sausage now, uh, and 379 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: how fitting for a German speaking medieval noble to become 380 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: a sausage in death. But anyway, so most teutonic Us, 381 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: by I guess its advocates, was thought to avoid violating 382 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: the prohibition against cremation, as specifically Charlemagne's prohibition. Uh, because 383 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: of course it did not involve destruction of the bones. 384 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: You would not be reducing the bones to ashes. The 385 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: bones would be intact. So I think that's good enough. 386 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: You know, the body is intact enough to to be 387 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: considered okay and not pagan. But some church officials still 388 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: didn't like it, and it was ultimately forbidden as uh 389 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: disgusting and unfitting of of proper disposal of the dead 390 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: by the pope in twelve and their teen hundreds. So 391 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: this would have been Pope I was wondering how to 392 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: say this, Boniface, Boniface, I guess Boniface eight. I was 393 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: looking for a translation of the original text of this 394 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: edict as well, and so what I came across was 395 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: part of a papal bull from hundred called bulld de 396 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: Semple Tourists, which was quoted in a paper called The 397 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: Popes and the History of Anatomy by James J. Walsh, 398 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 1: published in nineteen o four in the Medical Library and 399 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: Historical Journal, and the translation of the paper Bull says, 400 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: persons cutting up the bodies of the dead barbarously cooking 401 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 1: them in order that the bones, being separated from the 402 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: flesh may be carried for burial into their own countries, 403 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: are by the very fact excommunicated. So I think that 404 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: means no no further discussion necessary if you do it 405 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: automatic excommunication. And you know this does this sounds like 406 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: a very top down edict right here, and obviously it 407 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: is coming from the pope. But you can imagine this 408 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: scenario where out in the field, out in the where 409 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: you're actually having to deal with the challenge of bringing 410 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: bodies back across vast distances. You you might this might 411 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: be a lot clearer a situation like this body is 412 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: going to rot, is going to be foul by the 413 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: time you get it back. It is going to be 414 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: a mess. Why don't we just do the messy part here, uh, 415 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 1: and and speed it up a bit and then bring 416 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: the bones back clean. Yes, So you can see the 417 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: obvious practical advantages to this method, even though I mean, 418 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: we are highlighting how it does seem extremely weird, and 419 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie it does, but like they're there, 420 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: are there. The advantages are clear in terms of like 421 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: hygiene and so forth. The boiling and milk especially gives 422 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: me pause. That's the one that really sticks with me 423 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: for some reason, because I'm like, boiling and wine, well, yeah, 424 00:24:48,000 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 1: that just makes sense, But milk, I don't know. Walsh 425 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: writes of more examples of famous rulers who underwent most Teutonicus. 426 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: He says, quote the body of Frederick Barbarossa. I think 427 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: that's Frederick the First, the Holy Roman emperor, who was 428 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: drowned in the river cell Left near Jerusalem, was one 429 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: of the first to be treated thus. Afterwards, the remains 430 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 1: of Louis the ninth of France and a number of 431 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: his relatives who perished on the ill fated crusade in 432 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: Egypt were brought back to France in this fashion. And 433 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: though this is a side issue, I did just want 434 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: to quickly make note of it, because the main point 435 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: of this paper by Walsh is to refute and apparently 436 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 1: long propagated claim that this papal bull from hundred from 437 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: Boniface eight uh forbade uh dissection for the purpose of 438 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: anatomical research, so a lot of like early histories of 439 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: science at oh, we could have learned so much through 440 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: anatomical dissection if not for this papal bull. Walsh argues 441 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: that it was actually neither intended to have this purpose 442 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: nor understood as such, and it was a splicitly about 443 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: boiling crusaders to bring their bones home from foreign lands. 444 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: M and you know what. Coming back to that uh 445 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: that chapter by wis Crechi, she says that despite the 446 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: prohibition in the bull, evisceration and excarnation by boiling continued 447 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: some people, I guess, I don't know. I don't know 448 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: if they didn't know about it, or maybe they just 449 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 1: ignored the pope. I'm not sure, um though, she says 450 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 1: de fleshing by boiling eventually faded away mostly by the 451 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: by the middle of the fifteenth century. However, a related 452 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: but different practice is the focus of this chapter, and 453 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 1: that is heart burial, or the separation of the heart 454 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: from the body after death for burial usually in a 455 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: different place. Now in some cases, various types of evisceration, 456 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,120 Speaker 1: including removal and separate treatment of the heart as well 457 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: as other internal organs, may have been practical in the 458 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: same sense as the boiling of a crusader's bone. It was, 459 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 1: in some cases a practical solution to deal with the 460 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: tricky situation of a death far away from home and 461 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: the inevitable onset of decay in an era without freezers 462 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: or modern embalming techniques. So I was looking for one 463 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: big example of this, and I came across what I 464 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: thought was a great one, the story of King Henry 465 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: the First of England, which is interesting in a number 466 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: of ways. My main source on this is some materials 467 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: from the Reading Museum in the uk UH and the 468 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: reason for the location at the Reading Museum will become apparent. 469 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: Minute but tiny bit of background. Henry the First also 470 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 1: known as Henry bow Clerk, which means good scholar. He 471 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: was a very ambitious guy. He was kind of a 472 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: Game of Thrones character. He was the fourth son of 473 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: William the Conqueror, originally without a domain rulership of his 474 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: own because he's the fourth son. But Henry became king 475 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: of England after his eldest brother, William the second died 476 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: in eleven hundred, and then Henry made some moves. He 477 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: leap frogged over his older his other older brother Robert, 478 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: to claim the English throne. And then he went out 479 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 1: and seized control of the Duchy of Normandy in northern 480 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: France from that same brother Robert in eleven oh six. Wow, 481 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: he's making moves, making moves. I think he kept Robert 482 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: in prison for the rest of his life or something. 483 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: It was not not that nice on on that issue. 484 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: But but but one thing you may have read about Henry, 485 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: the first notable for it's like brutal pithiness, is the 486 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: note about the cause of his death. And the note 487 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: is that he died in eleven thirty five at a 488 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: hunting lodge in Leone la Fora in Normandy as a 489 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: result of eating quote, a surfeit of Lamprey's. It's just 490 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: like that. It's like four perfect words. I could be wrong, 491 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: but I think there's an episode of Horrible Histories that 492 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: touches on this. Uh Okay, I should look that up. Well, 493 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: this that that may cover some of the same stuff 494 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: I'm about to mention. By the way, Lampreys if you're 495 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: not familiar, there to a type of I don't know, 496 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: kind of wormy looking jawless fish, superficially resembling eels. I 497 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: think biologically they're not eels, but they're sometimes called eels. 498 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: I think this death has been interpreted as maybe food poisoning, 499 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: but it's not known for sure, as somehow it is 500 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: insistently a hilarious idea to me, This conqueror king dies 501 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: from just like eating eating Lamprey's until he died, but 502 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: from the from the Anglo Saxon Chronicles. This is quoted 503 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: on the website of the Museum of Reading. Quote that 504 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: very year the king died in Normandy the next day 505 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: after the Feast of St. Andrew. Then this land immediately 506 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: grew dark because every man who could immediately robbed another. 507 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: Then his son and his friends took and brought his 508 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: body to England and buried it at Reading. I like 509 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: that note to everybody immediately committing cry times. I don't 510 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: buy it, but who knows. Okay, so, but they want 511 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: to bring his body back to Reading. That makes sense, 512 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: but it's not quite as simple as that. Henry had 513 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: given instructions uh to take his body to Reading. He 514 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: did want his body to be laid to rest within 515 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: the abbey at Reading, where he had personally founded a 516 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: sizeable monastery, but that was all the way over across 517 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: the English Channel. Reading is a town a bit to 518 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: the west of London, so it's inland as well. It's 519 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: not like right on the coast, And apparently at the 520 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: time of his death weather was bad. There was a 521 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: winter winter gale blowing, making travel across the channel a 522 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: treacherous proposition, and according to our chronicles, Henry started rotting 523 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: and smelling bad very quickly. So instead of trying to 524 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: take him to Reading as is, a different plan was followed. 525 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: Henry's body was taken to the cathedral at Ruan, which 526 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: was nearby Normandy, where it was embalmed in the following manner. 527 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: He was vivisected and his heart and intestines were removed 528 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: and buried separately at a priory in France. So here's 529 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: a case of heart removal and burial, but along with 530 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: the intestines at a different place than the rest of 531 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: the body. His brain and his eyes were also removed. 532 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: Not sure what happened to them, Uh, just somebody might 533 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: be I'm not sure. The rest of his flesh was 534 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: I think slashed open and rubbed with salt inside out 535 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: as a preservative, and he was smeared with a kind 536 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: of perfume. Finally, the body was wrapped in an ox 537 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,479 Speaker 1: hide that was sown shut uh and that part the 538 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: rest of that body, the salted body inside the ox side, 539 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: was taken back to the abbey at Reading for burial. 540 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: But despite these precautions, Henry's retainers noticed during the journey 541 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,719 Speaker 1: back to England that the ox hides were leaking quote 542 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: black fluid all over the place. It is gross. Oh. Also, 543 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: despite the obvious caveats to be skeptical of accounts like this, 544 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: the chroniclers at least tell us that the embalmer whose 545 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: job it was to remove Henry's brain, was so overpowered 546 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: by the stench that he died. Well that that that 547 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: makes sense, because that that lines up with stuff we 548 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: discuss in the past regarding Egyptian mummification, where one of 549 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: the factors we have to take into account regarding the 550 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: removal and disposal of the brain is that that would 551 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,719 Speaker 1: have gone rancid really quickly and would would not have 552 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,719 Speaker 1: been a pleasant material to have to deal with. Well, 553 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: it makes me wonder, like, what can you actually die 554 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: from a stinch? Obviously you can die from inhaling things 555 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: that are harmful to your body, but like, could something 556 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,959 Speaker 1: actually smell so bad that in some way the smell 557 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: is what kills you. That didn't really seem to make sense. 558 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: But I don't know. Mm hmm, well, I don't know. 559 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: There would be an interesting topic to discuss in the future. 560 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: I mean, there are certain things you can smell that 561 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: will kill you, but it's not the merely the stinch 562 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: of the thing that makes it lethal. Um, so it's 563 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: it's an open question. Okay, yeah, maybe we'll come back 564 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: to that one day anyway. So here we have a 565 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: case in Henry the First where there may have also 566 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: been symbolic considerations involved, but there were clearly practical reasons 567 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: for burying the heart and other organs separately from the 568 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: rest of the body. And to come back to uh 569 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: this uh, this article or this book chapter I was 570 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: talking about, whatever the reasons involved the The author here 571 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: writes that this type of practice was fairly common for 572 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: the upper classes in Western Europe starting at around the 573 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: time of Henry's reign. Quote the extraction of the inner Organs, 574 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: and the separate burial of the heart and intestines was 575 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: a hallmark of English and French aristocratic mortuary behavior from 576 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: the twelfth century onwards. It is worth noting that the 577 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: English often quickly discarded the viscera close to the side 578 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: of corpse treatment, whereas the French treated them with great respect. 579 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: The English aristocracy generally favored a double interment, one for 580 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: the body, the other for the heart, while French aristocracy 581 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: often requested that the corpses be buried in three separate 582 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: places body, heart, and entrails. Now to end that quote, 583 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: but summarize some other commons. A big focus of this 584 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 1: chapter is about the practice of heart burial in Central 585 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: Europe is like in mostly German speaking areas of Europe, 586 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: where it was much less common than it was in 587 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: France and England, though there were some examples there. There's 588 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: one specific exception, which is that it was a standing 589 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: tradition of the prince bishops of Wurtzburg. Wurtzburg is a 590 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: city in the German state of Bavaria uh and these 591 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: prince bishops established a tradition with a three part burial. 592 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: The corpse would go off to Wurtzburg Cathedral, the intestines 593 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: go to the castle church at of Marienburg, and the 594 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: heart goes off to the monastery of Abroc And in 595 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: these cases it would have been probably for or not 596 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: probably almost certainly for mainly symbolic reasons rather than practical ones. 597 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 1: And what were these symbolic reasons? While she writes in 598 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: her conclusion that the primary symbolic purpose of the division 599 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: of the corps in both Central and Western Europe in 600 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages was a desire to quote duplicate the 601 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:23,399 Speaker 1: body quote by physically fragmenting corpses, high ranking individuals could 602 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: express loyalty to more than one site and comply with 603 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: a range of political, religious, and social demands. Yeah, this 604 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: makes sense. This is kind of like spreading it around. 605 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: It's like it's almost like a royal, say, a royal 606 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: official that has three parties on the same night, They're 607 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: gonna try to attend each of them for a little bit, right, 608 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 1: make an appearance at all three Yeah, yeah, And so 609 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,399 Speaker 1: this is a similar thing, except when ones remains right. 610 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: So at this time, the choice of where to be 611 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 1: buried was often interpreted as an important sign of what 612 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: was important to you. So if you're a duke and 613 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: you want to show your loyalty to your duchy, but 614 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,240 Speaker 1: maybe you're also a member of a consecrated religious order 615 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: and you want to show your loyalty to that orders 616 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: founding abbey, what can you do? Or maybe you're a 617 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: duke and you want to be in part at your duchy, 618 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: but also you are on some brutal military campaign and 619 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 1: you want to be buried in part uh, you know, 620 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: in the Holy Land where you're conquering cities. Is so 621 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 1: what do you do? You duplicate your body, allowing it 622 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,839 Speaker 1: to be buried in both places. And one common way 623 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: of doing that, especially in Western Europe, mainly England and France, 624 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: was burying the body in one and the heart in 625 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 1: the other. Uh. And a very common example here is 626 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 1: English nobles having their hearts transported separately to or from 627 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: the Holy Land. But the author also writes that in 628 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: the post medieval period, such as seventeenth century Catholic Europe, 629 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:51,760 Speaker 1: the symbolic significance of separate heart burial becomes more complicated. Quote. 630 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: The heart turns into something more than just a representative 631 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: of a person. It becomes a political artifact which was 632 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: used to renew spirituality and promote new types of religious beliefs. 633 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 1: So a heart in this case, Uh, the way I'm 634 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,359 Speaker 1: understanding this is that it could be used more kind 635 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 1: of like the relics of saints, or like a religious 636 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,760 Speaker 1: icon that was dedicated to maybe some kind of Catholic 637 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: counter reformation movement. That would you know, people could look 638 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: on it and meditate on it and it would or 639 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: not the heart itself maybe, but you know, like a 640 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: marker of its deposition somewhere and that would inspire them 641 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 1: to feel certain religious feelings. Fascinating. Another interesting trend observed 642 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 1: in this paper that she mentioned in the conclusion, especially 643 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: in England, it seems like heart burial takes on a 644 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,879 Speaker 1: kind of fashionable nous, like it's kind of cool, and 645 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 1: like so many things that are perceived as cool over 646 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: the years, this had to do in part with being 647 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: a practice of the rich. And it goes like this, 648 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,840 Speaker 1: transportation of a corpse is a marker of what she 649 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: calls social distinction, So you know, whose corpse gets transported 650 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: around after death, usually a powerful and wealthy person. Quote 651 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,800 Speaker 1: procedures associated with transportation and delayed burial, such as a 652 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 1: visceration and separate burial of the inner organs eventually developed 653 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: into symbols of high status even when transport was not necessary. 654 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: So maybe if earlier transportation of different parts of the 655 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: body around was a sign of like, wow, you're rich 656 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: enough to go like lead people to to fight in 657 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 1: the crusades, uh, and it was just a practical necessity there. 658 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: Maybe later on it doesn't have any of those practical implications, 659 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: but it's just like, well, that's what rich, important, powerful 660 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,720 Speaker 1: people used to do, so maybe we should do that. Also, 661 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: division of the corps was more expensive than a regular burial, 662 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,759 Speaker 1: So if you are say rising up through the classes, 663 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: like if you were somebody who was formerly more of 664 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: a commoner but you've got appointed to a to like 665 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: an administrative position somewhere within the government, you could try 666 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: to signal your yours in class status with some kind 667 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: of different funeral practice, maybe division of your body and 668 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: deposition at different places. So it becomes a form of 669 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: conspicuous consumption, a way to show off the fact that 670 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,240 Speaker 1: you have money to create the appearance of higher social 671 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: class or prestige. M Yeah, like I can afford to 672 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 1: not only have one funeral but three funeral. Yeah, Now, 673 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:27,320 Speaker 1: here's an interesting question, why did division of the corps, 674 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 1: including heart burial spread more quickly in medieval England but 675 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: remain comparatively rare in Central Europe. She suggests here that 676 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 1: it's because in England it was practiced by men, women 677 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 1: and children, whereas in medieval Central Europe basically meaning like 678 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: the Holy Roman Empire area, it was mainly done to 679 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: unmarried men without legitimate offspring. So obviously that would make 680 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: a big difference. Another big difference here comes back to 681 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 1: what we were talking about in the past episode about 682 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,839 Speaker 1: the symbolism of the heart. There appeared to be differences 683 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: in the understanding of the unique symbolism in the heart 684 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,959 Speaker 1: in Western versus Central Europe. So example, here, uh, there 685 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 1: was a twelfth century Austrian figure named had Mar of 686 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: kun Ring, who, according to the author, is the only 687 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: known German speaker ever to ask for his heart to 688 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,879 Speaker 1: be transported back home from a crusade. Because remember, among 689 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 1: German speakers, what what's the solution there? The German speakers 690 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: like the most Teutonic as the German custom making the 691 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: bone broth out of the crusader. Yeah, bring back the bones. 692 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,720 Speaker 1: But this guy is saying the heart, right, that's what's hot. 693 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: But had mar here he wanted his heart brought back. However, 694 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,760 Speaker 1: he did not ask for the heart alone. He wanted 695 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 1: his heart and his right hand returned for burial. Why 696 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: the hand well? Another example cited earlier in the paper, 697 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: she mentioned Prince Bishop Gottfried of Spitzenberg, who died in 698 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,480 Speaker 1: the Third Crusade in the year eleven ninety. He asked 699 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: not for his heart to be returned, but for his hand. Uh, 700 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 1: and it got lost along the way. Whoops, But she 701 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: ends up writing quote. It seems that for the English 702 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 1: the heart was important because it represented humanities in her being. 703 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: Among medieval German speaking people, especially the prince bishops, who 704 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 1: represented both secular and religious powers, other body parts such 705 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 1: as bones or arms could also fulfill that function. And 706 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: I thought that was so interesting. It makes me wonder 707 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: about the origin of this, this difference in in metaphor 708 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,800 Speaker 1: and and uh in an idiom. So if in medieval 709 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 1: England it's commonly understood that your heart, the organ that 710 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,719 Speaker 1: pumps blood, is the symbol of your soul. You know, 711 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: it's the most important seat of your character and your integrity. 712 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: But in German speaking lands it might just as well 713 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 1: be your bones or your right hand that symbolized that 714 00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: core part of you. What linguistic or cultural or literary 715 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: differences in those different language traditions might have caused this, 716 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, I mean, on one level, all this 717 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:09,440 Speaker 1: is making me think of all the potential for various 718 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 1: horror movies and so forth, But it also makes me 719 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: think of some of those crawling hand movies like The 720 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: Beast with Five Fingers. You know, like, there is something 721 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: about the hand that in the treatment given by these 722 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:23,759 Speaker 1: various horror films, and all of them are kind of 723 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 1: interconnected and ultimately stemming from some of the same source material, 724 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: but there is this idea in them that the hand 725 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,239 Speaker 1: retains something of of the original individual, and therefore you 726 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,759 Speaker 1: can it's really not that much of a stretch for 727 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,719 Speaker 1: even a very heart centric um or cardiocentric or I'm 728 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:43,759 Speaker 1: not sure what you would would call this, a very 729 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,600 Speaker 1: heart centric um um culture to realize that, Yeah, you 730 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 1: can easily imagine how the hand could end up getting 731 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,560 Speaker 1: all of the attention instead, because we can see examples 732 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: of that just in our various fictions and and folk tellings. 733 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,239 Speaker 1: So anyway, if it comes down to it, most teutonicus 734 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: versus heart burial? Which team are you on? Uh? But 735 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 1: it's the bones or or heart in hand? Boiling to 736 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: take the bones home or taking the heart in the 737 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,320 Speaker 1: body different places? Well, I mean, I don't want to 738 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: be an inconvenient so I don't know the heart. It 739 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 1: seems like it might be a nice tidy way to 740 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,400 Speaker 1: go about things. Therefore, I don't know if if you know, 741 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,440 Speaker 1: it's ultimately about what what they feel comfortable with, if 742 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,479 Speaker 1: they would rather do the boiling, Okay, I would maybe 743 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,279 Speaker 1: it'd rather not be milk. Uh, but that's just me. 744 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,919 Speaker 1: And obviously I'm not gonna really care all that much. 745 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 1: After after we've reached that point, I'm seeing visions of 746 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,839 Speaker 1: a gigantic instant pot that is not product integration. They 747 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,640 Speaker 1: did not they did not ask us to to put 748 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 1: that image in everywhere. That would be the best bit 749 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:51,279 Speaker 1: of spawn ever. Alright, Well, obviously we'd love to hear 750 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: from everyone else out there, which would you prefer bones 751 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:59,080 Speaker 1: or or heart? Hand or hand? And if you choose bones, 752 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,440 Speaker 1: what's the sub stance you want to hear your your 753 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,319 Speaker 1: bones stripped of their flesh? And I guess you can 754 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,399 Speaker 1: choose anything you can choose wine, you can choose milk, 755 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,640 Speaker 1: you can choose Yahoo. I don't know. You know what's 756 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 1: your favorite beverage? Pour it up? Yeah? You know the 757 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 1: chocolate who? You? Who? You Who? Not? Yeah? You who? 758 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: Yahoo is the website? You who is the chocolate beverage? 759 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,359 Speaker 1: Though um they're there are other brands of the of 760 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 1: of of the chocolate beverage as well, but yeah, you 761 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:29,320 Speaker 1: who boiled? And you Who? I think you're onto something. Yeah, 762 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,319 Speaker 1: so hey, we'd love to hear from everyone out there 763 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: if you have thoughts on what we've discussed in these 764 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,880 Speaker 1: two episodes, or if there are some other interesting ideas 765 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,840 Speaker 1: of how the heart is seen or treated either physically, 766 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,840 Speaker 1: is a part of a funeral custom or sacrificial custom 767 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 1: in different cultures in different times in history, or if 768 00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,800 Speaker 1: there's something from a mythological level or even a purely 769 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,359 Speaker 1: fictional level you'd like to bring up share it with us. 770 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. I know, just be 771 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,319 Speaker 1: putting this episode together right across a few other monsters 772 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:02,919 Speaker 1: and creatures from various full glorees and folk traditions. Uh so, 773 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,040 Speaker 1: I may have to come back to some of those 774 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,400 Speaker 1: maybe on future episodes of The Monster Fact reminder for 775 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 1: everyone out there that this is stuff to blow your 776 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,960 Speaker 1: mind were primarily a science podcast with our core episodes 777 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 1: like this one on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and on Monday's 778 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: we do listener mail, on Wednesdays we do Monster Factor Artifact, 779 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,399 Speaker 1: and on Fridays we do Weird How Cinema. That's our 780 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,399 Speaker 1: time to set aside most serious concerns and just talk 781 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 1: about a weird film, such as The Beast with Five 782 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 1: Fingers that's about a crawling hand, or Return of the 783 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:36,560 Speaker 1: Evil Dead, which well it's also Return of the Blind Dead, 784 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 1: depending on which time do you want to go in. 785 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,359 Speaker 1: That has to do with undead uh templars coming back 786 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,399 Speaker 1: to life, so uh some of those have touched on 787 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,800 Speaker 1: some of the ideas that we discussed in this episode. 788 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: Mad Love also about possessed hands the soul in their 789 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,600 Speaker 1: hands in that movie, and that's right, How good iver 790 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,760 Speaker 1: you get? Mad Love? All right? Well, uh big thanks 791 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 1: to our audio producer J J. Pauseway. If you would 792 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on 793 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,799 Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for 794 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 1: the future, or just to say hello, you can email 795 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 1: us at contact at Stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com. 796 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,080 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. 797 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,560 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio with the i 798 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,400 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to 799 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.