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Speaker 1: Maud jogged alone on the day he was killed. No

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Speaker 1: one can know for sure the route he took before

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Speaker 1: reaching Satilla Shores, but he'd set off from his home,

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Speaker 1: which means there's a strong chance that on his run

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Speaker 1: he encountered homes flying a Confederate flag, homes tacked with

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Speaker 1: no trespassing signs. To reach Setilla Shores from Bunker Ridge,

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Speaker 1: he would have also had to cross US Route seventeen,

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Speaker 1: a highway that for years served as a de facto

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Speaker 1: county border between the areas blacks and whites live. That

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Speaker 1: is an excerpt from Mitchell Jackson's Pulitzer Prize winning story

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Speaker 1: about Ahmud Aubrey. He is our guest today, Welcome to Naked.

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Speaker 2: If the greatest disperson in the same making Nick you

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Speaker 2: putting Larry Chapion and Carrie Chappy is to be a

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Speaker 2: champion of Champion and Carrie Chappie and the Champion and

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Speaker 2: carry Chapion and carried Shepiar.

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Speaker 1: Today on Naked we have Mitchell S. Jackson, a Pulitcher

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Speaker 1: Prize winning writer who has just written a book called Fly.

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Speaker 1: It is about the history of NBA players and their fashion.

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Speaker 1: But it's more than just a beautiful coffee table book.

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Speaker 1: It gives us some history. It tells us more about

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Speaker 1: who we are as a culture and why fashion means

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Speaker 1: so much. But Mitchell is more than just a writer

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Speaker 1: of fashion. He has written so many beautiful stories and

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Speaker 1: essays about the culture as a black man that gives

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Speaker 1: him a special window into who we are when writing

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Speaker 1: about the culture. And the essay that I read to you,

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Speaker 1: the one that won the Flitcher Prize, is about a

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Speaker 1: Mode Aubrey. You remember, the teenage who was shot dead

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Speaker 1: while jogging in his neighborhood. It's really sad, and every

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Speaker 1: time I think about that story, I find it hard

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Speaker 1: to talk about because it just reminds us of the

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Speaker 1: world that we live in today. A black life can

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Speaker 1: mean nothing. A black man's life can mean nothing, A

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Speaker 1: little black boy's life can mean nothing. I begin today's

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Speaker 1: podcast with Mitch talking about how he grew up. I

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Speaker 1: want to know more about his life story. I hope

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Speaker 1: that you all enjoy this edition of.

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Speaker 2: Naked Champion and care with Chapion and care with Chatty.

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Speaker 1: So I want to start with first thaying congratulations on

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Speaker 1: your book, Fly and we will get into that and

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Speaker 1: just came out in August. I believe the twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: But I'd like to know more about the Bulitzer Prize

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Speaker 1: winning journalist writer we have here. Would you consider yourself

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Speaker 1: a journ was just a writer? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I haven't called myself a journalist because I wasn't trained

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Speaker 3: as one, and I feel like kind of fraudulent in

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Speaker 3: that way, though I have been doing this a very

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Speaker 3: long time. Like the first thing that I ever published

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Speaker 3: was journalism, and I'm from Portland, Oregon, so it was

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Speaker 3: a newspaper that just got started in two two thousand,

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Speaker 3: I think it was when I published that, and it

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Speaker 3: was actually on basketball, which is maybe kind of strange

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Speaker 3: or serendipitous, I guess. So, yeah, I've done a lot

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Speaker 3: of journalism, but I went I'm trained as a fiction writer.

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Speaker 3: I actually went to two MFA programs to study fiction.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So with that being said, I want to know

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Speaker 1: how you grew up because we'll get to the Pulitzer

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Speaker 1: Prize winning essay, but I want to know about how

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Speaker 1: you grew up. From my understanding, it was in Portland

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Speaker 1: during a very transitional time period and it was a

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Speaker 1: struggle for you. So tell me a little bit about

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Speaker 1: where you grew up in what life was like for you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I was born in seventy five, so I'm

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Speaker 3: a child of the late seventies early eighties, and like

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Speaker 3: you know, a lot of black communities or depressed communities,

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Speaker 3: we had our problems with drugs and poverty and eventually gangs,

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Speaker 3: and so that kind of I would say, defined not

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Speaker 3: my super early childhood, but by the time I was

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Speaker 3: in double digits through my teens, you know, I.

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Speaker 1: Thought a lot about that.

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Speaker 3: And my mother struggled with addiction from the time I

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Speaker 3: was ten years old and all through my probably until

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Speaker 3: I was into my thirties, so that really had an

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Speaker 3: effect on me. I ended up selling dope like a

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Speaker 3: lot of people. I also played basketball, but that's kind

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Speaker 3: of maybe even beside the point, and ended up going

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Speaker 3: to prison for a little while what is the little

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Speaker 3: one sixteen months? So you know, when I talked to

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Speaker 3: my friends that really did some time. I can't really

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Speaker 3: even I got to mention my time up under my breath, yes,

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Speaker 3: because it ain't enough, but it was enough for me

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Speaker 3: to like, I'm not going enough back theah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so here we are. The path the story not unfamiliar,

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Speaker 1: especially for the culture, but the unfamiliar turn comes when

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Speaker 1: you and please explain to me how you go from

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Speaker 1: Have you always have always had an interest in writing

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Speaker 1: and fiction even when you got out of jail. What

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Speaker 1: turned life around for you? Yeah? I did. I haven't.

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Speaker 1: I did not have an interest in fiction writing.

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Speaker 3: I didn't even realize that I had an interest in writing,

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Speaker 3: like I go back now. I was just looking for

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Speaker 3: a story with some archival stuff and saw journals that

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Speaker 3: I had from when I was ten and eleven years old.

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Speaker 1: Just every day, this is what was happening. Today was

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Speaker 1: a good day, Today was a bad day.

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Speaker 3: So I think I had that kind of nonfiction element

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Speaker 3: in me, but in terms of fiction, I didn't really.

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Speaker 3: I didn't read a lot of fiction, and I didn't

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Speaker 3: really decide to write fiction until I decided to kind

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Speaker 3: of write my life story and thought, oh, I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: get some people in trouble if I tell this straight ahead,

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Speaker 3: so I better learn how to fiction realize it.

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Speaker 1: So really it was.

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Speaker 3: The kind of mandate from myself of not getting people

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Speaker 3: in trouble that actually drew me to fiction.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Really, that's interesting, the mandate from yourself to not

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Speaker 1: get in trouble. Stitch no stitching brought me to fiction.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, that's the name of the next book, brought

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Speaker 1: me to finsh shit, yo, that's the name of the

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Speaker 1: nether book. So you spend I think the folk of

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Speaker 1: your time in Portland. When do you leave there? Because

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Speaker 1: from my understanding, you live in the city.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I left Portland in my

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Speaker 3: early twenties. I moved to New York, or maybe my

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Speaker 3: mid twenties. I moved to New York and I was

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Speaker 3: there almost twenty years. Started at New York Coniversity, where

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Speaker 3: I was an MFA student, and then I ended up

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Speaker 3: teaching there for a very long time. Uh yeah, So

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Speaker 3: became a professor again. Didn't decide to become one just

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Speaker 3: oh man, I got this master's degree.

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Speaker 1: What am I gonna do with it?

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Speaker 3: I got a felony and a master's degree.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to tell out job apps. So so

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Speaker 1: so you you you fall in love with this writing

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Speaker 1: thing that you really didn't think anything about. Do you

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Speaker 1: think you're you're trained generally by your eye or by

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Speaker 1: what you learned or the world around you? Because they

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Speaker 1: you would think when you're someone saying I'm a professor,

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Speaker 1: I teach there has to be some sort of pedigree

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Speaker 1: that comes with that prior to or as you So

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Speaker 1: how do we get there? You know, I'm I was

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Speaker 1: in jail, I was a street guy, lived in new

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Speaker 1: Portland now and now I'm a professor. Like the two

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Speaker 1: are so diametrically opposed to one another. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: like the dichotomy of the kid is really a lot.

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Speaker 3: Well, they seem like they diametrically opposed. But if you

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Speaker 3: got to survive in the streets, you have to understand

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Speaker 3: the rules of it. You have to understand the craft

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Speaker 3: of what you're doing. And I was always I grew up.

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Speaker 3: I guess I should have mentioned this that my father

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Speaker 3: and my uncles were all hustlers, and I, on the

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Speaker 3: one hand, I idolized them, but on the other hand,

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Speaker 3: I was critical of them. So I would watch what

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Speaker 3: they were doing, and I would always listen to them talking,

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Speaker 3: and so that the cadence that they speak in, and

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Speaker 3: the addiction that they speak in, and the way that

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Speaker 3: they move their mannerisms, I would always make note of that.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't write it down, but I would certainly pay

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Speaker 3: attention to that. And then when I got older and

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Speaker 3: I started writing. I started realizing, oh, I could translate

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Speaker 3: that same metric. I could translate that. And I had

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Speaker 3: been paying attention and asking myself, well, why is uncle

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Speaker 3: Paul doing this? Well, why is Uncle Paul out in

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Speaker 3: Hawaii for six months and comes back stuffing money in

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Speaker 3: my pockets? And so I think those experiences and then

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Speaker 3: recognizing what was valuable inside of them, that they weren't

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Speaker 3: just throwaways that I couldn't do anything with. So that

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Speaker 3: was really really important to me. And then I was

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Speaker 3: a good student, so it was never I was never

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Speaker 3: one of those dudes like forget school and it ain't

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Speaker 3: for me, and like.

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Speaker 1: I was honor oh student, scholarship kids.

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Speaker 3: So I think I always had those two kind of

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Speaker 3: parallel things running alongside each other.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you lived in both worlds. And now that you

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Speaker 1: say that makes sense, we all do in some capacity,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, We've all we all have

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Speaker 1: in so many ways. I know, I know I have.

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Speaker 1: I think you get to Columbia, I'm gonna go to

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Speaker 1: excuse me, I'm gonna go to your graduating from from

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Speaker 1: getting a master's degree and living in the city, and

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Speaker 1: what do you focus your writing on? What do you

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Speaker 1: what do you what do you? By the way, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you had a dream or maybe it wasn't

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Speaker 1: fully realized, but writing was your passion, and I want

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Speaker 1: to know what really allowed you to dig into your

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Speaker 1: passion of writing? What was your speciscifity? If I can

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Speaker 1: get that word.

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Speaker 3: Out, I think feeling like my options were narrowed was

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Speaker 3: the beginning of like, Okay, I had a young daughter.

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Speaker 3: My daughter's now twenty two, and I went out to

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Speaker 3: New York right when she was born, and so I

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Speaker 3: was like, damn if I don't make good on this.

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Speaker 3: Not only did I leave, but I failed too, So

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Speaker 3: there was an imperative for me to make good on that.

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Speaker 3: And then I think, you know, I had told everyone

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Speaker 3: else like I'm going out here to be a writer,

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Speaker 3: so you can't. I mean, if you come home after

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Speaker 3: you've done all of this, you got a lot explaining

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Speaker 3: to do. And I was lucky enough that I met

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Speaker 3: people early on who actually told me I had talent,

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Speaker 3: and not only you know, it's one thing to be encouraged,

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Speaker 3: it's another thing to be encouraged and then given the

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Speaker 3: critical faculty of actually figuring out why you're good, Like

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Speaker 3: if you read a journalist's story. You're watching someone build

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Speaker 3: out a deck or something. You can tell what's good

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Speaker 3: and what isn't about that. And if you can tell

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Speaker 3: them that, that's different than saying like, oh, you're a

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Speaker 3: really good journalist. And so I had people tell me, oh,

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Speaker 3: you can do this, and then here's how you do this,

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Speaker 3: and here's what I think you should be working on.

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Speaker 3: And really a lot of those people were old white men.

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Speaker 1: Really yeah, and what did they tell you?

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Speaker 3: Interesting about the way that white men feel empowered in

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Speaker 3: basically anything that they do in the audacity I call

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Speaker 3: it the white man's audacity, Like they feel like they

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Speaker 3: can do anything.

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Speaker 1: For sure.

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Speaker 3: If people who are marginalized can kind of take on

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Speaker 3: some of that audacity, I think it's helpful to them

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Speaker 3: because it gives them license to do things that they

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Speaker 3: wouldn't otherwise try.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I definitely have that audacity. But what were

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Speaker 1: they telling you to write? What were they telling you

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Speaker 1: to write about? Like, I'm interested to hear what a

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Speaker 1: white man is telling a black man who should write

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Speaker 1: about in their field?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, they weren't necessarily telling me what to write about.

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Speaker 3: They were saying, if you're going to write it. How

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Speaker 3: about you think about this or did you I remember

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Speaker 3: one I had a mentor this really old white guy,

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Speaker 3: and I had a sentence. It was she told me

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Speaker 3: to hold it for safe key. She told me to

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Speaker 3: hold it, and then she took it back. And he's like,

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Speaker 3: oh yeah, that's great, Mitch. And then I said rent

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Speaker 3: money from under the mattress and he says, stop, Mitchell.

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Speaker 3: He said, I never want to hear you asking for

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Speaker 3: someone's sympathy on the page. Don't you ever do that?

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Speaker 3: And just that bit was like, oh yeah, because it's

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Speaker 3: so easy when you got a hard knight life story

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Speaker 3: to like make that your currency. And essentially he was saying,

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Speaker 3: you can't make this your currency because if you do,

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Speaker 3: you're going to run out. So that was really really

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Speaker 3: key for me. So rewrite that sentence without asking for sympathy.

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Speaker 1: What is it? Yeah, and asked, just take off this.

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Speaker 3: She told me hold it for I mean it was

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Speaker 3: rent money under the mattress. She she told me to

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Speaker 3: hold it for safe key. She told me to hold it.

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Speaker 1: And then she took it back and that was the

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Speaker 1: end of it. And not you know, my mom.

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Speaker 3: Took the rent money from me and from under my

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Speaker 3: mattress was like, Oh, feel sorry for this guy's mother's

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Speaker 3: taking the rent money from them.

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Speaker 1: Well, what does that sentence I'm now I'm getting into

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Speaker 1: the weeds. What does that sentence now mean when you

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Speaker 1: take the last part up that's sympothy off of it?

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Speaker 1: Does it mean so much for whoever is reading it?

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Speaker 1: It can be interpreted anyway.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's mystery in it. That's another craft element, right, Like,

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Speaker 3: what's what's the mystery? I think as a journal and

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Speaker 3: this is I think one thing difference between the journalist

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Speaker 3: and a fiction writer is the fiction writer is trying

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Speaker 3: to withhold information as long as they can, and the

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Speaker 3: journalist is trying to give it to you as quick

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Speaker 3: as they can, right Like you get to the pyramid,

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Speaker 3: that's the journalist has to give you all the info

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Speaker 3: right up top. Fiction writers like, now, I don't want

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Speaker 3: you to know her name right now or what year

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Speaker 3: this is if I don't have to tell you. Okay,

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Speaker 3: there's the difference, Okay, the beautiful difference. And I understand

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Speaker 3: it's so crystal clear in my mind.

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Speaker 1: I have three minutes to tell the entire story, and

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Speaker 1: that's on a generous day. That's on a generous day.

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Speaker 1: But you're so you're sick when it as opposed to

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Speaker 1: a two minutes, two minutes, you know, or one thirty,

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Speaker 1: you're I'm going to wait. She told me to hold

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Speaker 1: her for safe key. She told me to hold her

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Speaker 1: for safe key, but then she took it away. I

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Speaker 1: think love, I think kids, I think money, I think

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Speaker 1: I think, I think so many different things. That's so beautiful.

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Speaker 1: What a beautiful moment that registered with you, which is

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Speaker 1: why you have the talent, and that's what they recognized

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Speaker 1: in your beautiful So I'm curious you you have these

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Speaker 1: mentors along the way that aren't black, you know, but

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Speaker 1: you're writing Our stories are in fiction, and ways are

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Speaker 1: you're writing all stories.

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Speaker 3: I'm really just concentrated on writing a novel about my

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Speaker 3: life that takes me through to two graduate writing programs.

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Speaker 3: But along the way, when I get to New York,

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Speaker 3: because I have a young daughter back in Portland and

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Speaker 3: I'm adjunct in all around the city, I start freelancing

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Speaker 3: and so probably have a mutual friend. I don't know

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Speaker 3: if you know, day Twine, I saw it. Just got

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Speaker 3: a really good job working for Dick Clark.

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Speaker 1: Oh I saw that. Yeah, yeah, you know what those

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Speaker 1: are leads. I don't know if I know, can I

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Speaker 1: say no? We probably have a lot of mutual friends,

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Speaker 1: but it's just like some of our friends are social

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Speaker 1: media friends too.

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Speaker 3: But yes, okay, yeah, yeah, I was pressing everybody back then.

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Speaker 3: You know, I would go to all the little parties

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Speaker 3: and I saw Daytwine and a party.

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Speaker 1: He was the editor.

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Speaker 3: In chief of King magazine at the time, and I

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Speaker 3: was like, man, I just moved down here and I'm

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Speaker 3: trying to, you know, break through man like. And he

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Speaker 3: gave me a fabulous review. That's one hundred and fifty words.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's great. That was it. That's all I needed.

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Speaker 1: That's all I needed. Good for you, Good for you.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate you supporting Naked. We're gonna take a break

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Speaker 1: and pay some bills back in the moment.

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Speaker 2: Every champion and Cary champions to be a champion of

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Speaker 2: champion and carry champion and carry chap be out a

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Speaker 2: champion and carry champion and carry champion great sports and

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Speaker 2: entertainment and Naked weird. Every cham be in and carry

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Speaker 2: champion is to be a champion, a champion and carry champion,

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Speaker 2: Champion and carry Champion.

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Speaker 1: And carry Chap Entertainment. Hey, everybody, I appreciate you pushing

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Speaker 1: through those commercials. Welcome back to Naked and Today's guest. So,

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Speaker 1: so you right, your first published work is is it

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Speaker 1: an essay or it is your book? You know? It's

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Speaker 1: actually a feature in the in the Portland Tribune and

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Speaker 1: about three guys who should have gone to the NBA

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Speaker 1: from my hood and didn't. Okay, how did you feel

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Speaker 1: about that your first life?

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Speaker 3: That pretty good because it was you know, like the

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Speaker 3: cover of our sports section and it was my first

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Speaker 3: piece like it. I did it for a class and

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Speaker 3: then also to be able to highlight my friends made

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Speaker 3: me feel really satisfied that I could, you know, share

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Speaker 3: their stories.

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Speaker 1: And I've done that since and share your friends stories. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: those are to me the best stories that you can

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Speaker 1: tell from not necessarily first person, but I'm close where

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Speaker 1: you have an insight perspective. So now, so now I

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Speaker 1: want to fast forward to you. You you're working, you're established.

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Speaker 1: The question is really simply before you write the Pulitzer

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Speaker 1: Prize winning I say, do you feel successful before you

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Speaker 1: write this essay that that that gives you the pedigree

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Speaker 1: or the cloud if you will in your world.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I feel I don't feel like I'm not at

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Speaker 3: the pinnacle of anything, and still not.

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Speaker 1: But I I had won.

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Speaker 3: Several awards by the time I had done that, and

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Speaker 3: they're mostly just I mean, basically, if they're outside of writing,

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Speaker 3: I probably only know about the National Book Award and

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Speaker 3: the Clitz Surprises. But inside of writing, I had won

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Speaker 3: all the little stuff that kind of leads up to that.

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Speaker 3: So I felt good about that. I had two books

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Speaker 3: that were well reviewed, and I was doing other stuff,

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Speaker 3: you know, writing for Time and Esquire and all that.

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Speaker 3: So I did but the but the the orbreat piece

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Speaker 3: did feel different.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So by let me set this up for everybody.

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Speaker 1: So for those who are listening, let me set this

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Speaker 1: up for you guys. A mot Aubrey. You remember that

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Speaker 1: the black kid from Georgia who was jogged was murdered

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Speaker 1: and we all saw it. It was murdered really at

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Speaker 1: the height of everything in the pandemic or racial renaissance.

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Speaker 1: The video is awful, awful, traumatizing, and you wrote an essay.

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Speaker 1: He wrote an essay that went on to win a

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Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize. I want you to tell everybody. Obviously we

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Speaker 1: know that well, not all of us, but the facts

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Speaker 1: of this story. But tell us what you how you

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Speaker 1: wrote it, from what perspective, and what you felt as

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Speaker 1: you were writing this Politzer Prize winning essay.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it's it's very important to mention it

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Speaker 3: was the pandemic. So I remember I got the call

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Speaker 3: from my editor. I had only I think I had

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Speaker 3: worked with him once and it was on I wrote

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Speaker 3: a story for Esquire by Michael B.

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Speaker 1: Jordan Uh and he kept calling me, calling me you

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Speaker 1: want to write on it? And I was like nah, nah.

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Speaker 3: And then he called me and he was like, it

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Speaker 3: was pandemic. I was at sheltering in my New York apartment.

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Speaker 3: Caused me, says, man, I think I got something for you.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, what is it? He was like a

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Speaker 3: mod Aubrey. And I had just watched a clip of

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Speaker 3: the video. I didn't watch the whole thing, but it

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Speaker 3: was fresh on my mind. And I normally try to

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Speaker 3: stay away from being the person who talks immediately about

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Speaker 3: something because I don't feel like I'm informed enough and

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Speaker 3: I don't want to say something that's that's not smart

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Speaker 3: or not empathetic or whatever it is. And then I thought, well, man,

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Speaker 3: I'm home though, and this really struck me, and I

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Speaker 3: was like okay. And then I remember asking him do

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Speaker 3: I have to leave my apartment because I was I

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Speaker 3: was most people that was really sheltering, Like I didn't leave.

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Speaker 3: I was getting insted cart and I walked outside of

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Speaker 3: my buildings for like three weeks.

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Speaker 1: You're like, I'm not fooling with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: So he said no, you don't have to do it.

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Speaker 3: And I said, well, I want you all to know

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Speaker 3: I'm also not a like I get on the treadmill,

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Speaker 3: but I don't go out jogging.

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Speaker 1: He's like, no, it's okay.

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Speaker 3: So once I had those two things, I remember they

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Speaker 3: had one person and his name was Jason. He was

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Speaker 3: a modd's soft or JV football coach. And they're like,

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Speaker 3: he's willing to talk to you. So I said, okay,

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Speaker 3: so well who's after that. I didn't have a list

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Speaker 3: of subjects and they're like, well, we got that. And

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Speaker 3: so I'm on the phone with Jason and I'm asking

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Speaker 3: him questions. He's telling me great stories, and there's a

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Speaker 3: guy in the background that keeps answering questions for Jason.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, man, who is that? And he's like, oh, man,

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Speaker 3: that's Mad's best friend. I'm like, oh shit, well can

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Speaker 3: I talk to him?

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Speaker 1: And he's like yeah.

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Speaker 3: Then I set up an interview with him and then

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Speaker 3: I'm talking to him and then he mentioned someone that

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Speaker 3: I don't know and I said, hey, man, who is that.

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Speaker 3: He's like, oh, that's myd's sister. I said, Man, can

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Speaker 3: I talk to her? He said, man, yeah, let me

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Speaker 3: look out. And that's how it went. Like I would

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Speaker 3: talk to one per I didn't have a plan. I

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Speaker 3: would talk to one person and they would give me

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Speaker 3: a story. And ever ever one was so generous. Everyone

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Speaker 3: around mid was so so generous. And I remember the

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Speaker 3: last person that I talked to was Mad's older brother

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Speaker 3: and we were talking late at night and I was

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Speaker 3: laughing really loud at the.

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Speaker 1: End of our end of our conference or interview, and

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Speaker 1: then my partner comes in. He's like, man, who are

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Speaker 1: you talking to? Like, is that your brother?

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Speaker 3: I was like, no, that was Mod's brother. He was like, wow,

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Speaker 3: it sounded like y'all was family. And that's like the

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Speaker 3: feeling that I had while I was talking to them.

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Speaker 3: Then I started writing the piece and I got to

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Speaker 3: the end of it, and I had all of this,

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Speaker 3: all these anecdotes about Mod, and.

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Speaker 1: I was like, damn, I'm gonna lose all this, And

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Speaker 1: I was like, how can I keep it?

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Speaker 3: And I have a list. If you've ever read this story,

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Speaker 3: there's a list at the end. It's like what I

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Speaker 3: want you to know about Mid, what you should know

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Speaker 3: about Mid, and what you must know about Mod. And

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Speaker 3: that's really the list of things that might have gotten

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Speaker 3: left out of the story unless I figured out a

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Speaker 3: way to keep them in.

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Speaker 1: And I really really wanted to give.

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Speaker 3: A sense of who that young man was, because he

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Speaker 3: was remarkable, and I think his not only was he remarkable,

434
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:09,120
Speaker 3: but his people were.

435
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,439
Speaker 1: And now I really want to stress that. So you

436
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,639
Speaker 1: read it. When it's all said and done, what do

437
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 1: you think? How long did you take me to write?

438
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 1: And when you when you went over it and made

439
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 1: me back and forth with your editors, what did you feel?

440
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 3: I felt pretty good about it, but I finished. I

441
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 3: didn't have that many edits on it, which is strange,

442
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,679
Speaker 3: Like I'm actually closing a story today for The New

443
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 3: York Times. I've been working on it for almost two years,

444
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,719
Speaker 3: and I'll easily into forty edits I mean, I'm probably

445
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 3: done twenty edits in the last two days.

446
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, I know.

447
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 3: Well for me to do that story on mid and

448
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 3: I have I don't know, five edits maybe so that

449
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 3: that felt good. And I remember when I posted it though,

450
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:04,959
Speaker 3: I had a woman who hadn't wont a fellowship with

451
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 3: me maybe ten years prior, and I posted it. This

452
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,160
Speaker 3: is on Facebook. I guess I don't even go there anymore.

453
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 3: And she wrote her first It was like the first

454
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 3: comment when I posted it, she said, and the winner

455
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 3: is for the pulling surprise, a moving story on a

456
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 3: mad Aubury Mitchell Jackson. Why when she wrote that, I

457
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,880
Speaker 3: was like, oh wow, what if that actually happened?

458
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 1: Wow?

459
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 3: Wow, wow, wow chills wow wow. Yeah, she already knew

460
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 3: it's crazy. She's never wrote that before. No one had

461
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 3: ever wrote anything like that on my un story. And

462
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 3: she that was the first thing she said.

463
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 1: Why do you think it touched everyone? Yes, it was

464
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: the pandemic. Guess we're paying attention. Yes, our black stories

465
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 1: were pushed to the forefront. But why that story because

466
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 1: so many were being told?

467
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I was that moment the story came out.

468
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 3: I think June of twenty twenty, there was a two

469
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 3: week period where to me, some of the best writing

470
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 3: about Black Lives Matter and the subjects tangential to that,

471
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 3: not tangential related to that, came out. It was like

472
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 3: if Mighty Perry had something and Hot No No Jasmine

473
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 3: had something, TSA Layman has something, and I was a

474
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 3: part of that, like push And I also think Floyd

475
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 3: was right in that area too, And it happened to

476
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 3: be that Iowa I may have had what was the

477
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 3: best piece about a Black Lives Matter victim in that moment.

478
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 3: So somebody it was gonna come, Like I feel like journalism,

479
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 3: the subject matters just as much, if not more than

480
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 3: the sometimes the writing, and so something out of that

481
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 3: subject was going to do it. It was just which

482
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,439
Speaker 3: piece is it that is on this subject? Right? They

483
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 3: had to be timely, So I think a lot of

484
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 3: it was timing. I hope a lot of it was

485
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 3: the writing as well. And I think the ending of

486
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 3: it it's like, uh almost, I won't say it's biblical,

487
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 3: but but the anapha of the ending of that story

488
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 3: like does something different than like a regular journalism landing.

489
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very personal, it's very I don't want to

490
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,479
Speaker 1: say an obituary, but it is a because it is yeah,

491
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: but yeah, more though more though more though yeah I

492
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: I you didn't give it all away, but right away

493
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: you know, just as you have been taught to do

494
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: or shared shared with you know what I mean. So

495
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 1: then you have this moment and I congratulations. I mean,

496
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: that's just beautiful legacy, part of your legacy. And you

497
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 1: pass it down to your your daughter. It's something to say,

498
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 1: my dad is and it was whatever it may be.

499
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 1: And then you and you go on and you write

500
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 1: and continue to live your life. We get out of

501
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 1: the pandemic, and which brings us to present, if you will,

502
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 1: and if there's anything that I'm missing that you want

503
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: to talk about, but there's a book that you put

504
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 1: together that which I think is I love a good

505
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 1: coffee table book, by the way, like to me. It's interesting.

506
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: Some people live in the two worlds the memoir, you know,

507
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: the story themselves, and I don't get to see too

508
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 1: many coffee table books that I think are more that

509
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 1: that are more common to the world in which I

510
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: live in. So tell everybody about fly and how this

511
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: this idea which I'm sure has been simmering in your

512
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: in your brain and your mind for a very long

513
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: time came about.

514
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 3: Uh well again. My very first piece was, man, this

515
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 3: son is really messing with me. The very first piece

516
00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 3: was almost famous on my friends who didn't make it

517
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 3: who I thought should. And so I've been writing about

518
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 3: basketball for twenty years. I played all the way through

519
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 3: junior college. And I actually remember when I I had

520
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 3: a friend, Damon Stetomar was now the head coach of

521
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 3: Georgia Tech, but he was in the league at the time,

522
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 3: and once he my whole crew. No, I'm the dude

523
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 3: that tried to put that shit on all the time.

524
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 3: And so he called me one summer. He was like, man,

525
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 3: I need you to I need you to buy my

526
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 3: summer wardrobe. I was like, okay. He was like, man,

527
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 3: I'm gonna send you some money, and you know you

528
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 3: just look out for it that I paid for. I'm like,

529
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 3: all right, cool. So I went and did my thing

530
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 3: and took pictures of the outfits and sent him back

531
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 3: and I don't know how much of it he wore,

532
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 3: but I would say I might have been the first

533
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 3: NBA stylist.

534
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: Shit was like, yeah, pretty broad, and I.

535
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 3: Mean this is what stuff was like, still a Blazer, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

536
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 3: So I've always cared about that, and I think if

537
00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 3: you're remotely paying attention, that you understand the league is

538
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 3: putting a lot of no professional sports is putting a

539
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 3: lot of emphasis on fashion, and that the NBA is

540
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 3: the forerunner in that area.

541
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: And I think, you.

542
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 3: Know, I remember Bron said something about, you know, records

543
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 3: are made to be broken or something, but the record

544
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 3: that will never be broken is being first as something. Right,

545
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 3: So someone had to write the book on NBA fashion.

546
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 3: Better to be the first one than the second, even

547
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 3: if you miss out on some stuff or you get

548
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 3: some stuff wrong. So I was really interested in that,

549
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 3: and then it came through me through It came to

550
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 3: me through my editor at Hearst, who I trust about,

551
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 3: you know, ideas and where to where to spend my time.

552
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: So your editors suggested this for you.

553
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 3: The same editor that gave me the signed the amount

554
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 3: of Arvor story is the editor that brought fly to me.

555
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 3: It wasn't my idea. They brought this idea to me

556
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 3: and I said, oh, I know, a good idea.

557
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: What I said, yeah, yeah, okay, great, I love this.

558
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: It's so good at it, and they're like, this will

559
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: be perfect. Your give everyone a background on your fashion

560
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: because you you you fly fly. So when did this fashion?

561
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: This love of fashion, like fashion for real fashion, not

562
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: like I look good my shoes mashed with my shirt,

563
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: but like you know what I mean, but like I

564
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: want to I want to put all the things together.

565
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: And then you don't what you know about this type

566
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: of look? When did all of that there for you? Yeah?

567
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 3: Uh well, I've always liked it. My uncle was a FASHIONISTO.

568
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 3: I guess before I would have even termed that, he

569
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 3: would have like a stack of GQ in his closet

570
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 3: and a stack of Esquire in his closet, and I

571
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 3: would live in his closet to slip it through the page,

572
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 3: like wait till I get like that.

573
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, way do I give my money? You right? Yeah?

574
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,959
Speaker 1: We love to shock black folks. We get we are

575
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars. It's one thousand, nine hundred and ninet

576
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: nine dollars a bill club. Yeah, exactly, exactly unexpected. Yeah.

577
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 3: So then I you know, when I got to be

578
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 3: like eighteen to twenty, when I was selling a little

579
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 3: bit of drugs, I was we got sacks around that

580
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 3: same Oh no, yeah, so I was in there.

581
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: You ain't up on this, You ain't up on this one.

582
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: Who I love us.

583
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: Every champion and Kerry Champions to be a champion, a

584
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: Champion and Kerry Champion and Kerry chap Beta Champion and

585
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 2: Kerry Champion and Kerry Chappifraid is the sports and entertainment

586
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 2: can naked work, Every champion and Kerry Champions to be

587
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 2: a champion, a Champion and Carry Champion, the girl a

588
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: Champion and Kerry Champion and Kerry chappi Rafraid is the sports.

589
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: And so for the people who are listening, you should

590
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: follow Mitchell on social media because you'll see what I'm

591
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: talking about. He was at the the nd season tournament

592
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: and he walked the red carpet if you will, like

593
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: the athletes to do in the tunnel, and he he

594
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:18,959
Speaker 1: was like, let me just take a look at this

595
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: because you missed this, and then what about this and

596
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: let me get this angle and what you know about this?

597
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: You ain't up on this and so I love that

598
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: for you, So you have to you have to follow him.

599
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: If you're into fashion, you'll hear it's beautiful. Now the

600
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: love that you have for fashion and basketball are make sense,

601
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: and it makes sense for you to have this book.

602
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: So what what will people experience when they go out

603
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: to purchase live? What are you trying to share and sell?

604
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 3: One of my favorite quotes is a Miles Davis quote,

605
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 3: and it's you got to have style and everything you do,

606
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 3: and uh, I really take that to heart in terms

607
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 3: of writing, so crafting that sentence, crafting that paragraph, figuring

608
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 3: out a structure that feel new. And so there are

609
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 3: pictures in here, lovely pictures, but also I feel like

610
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 3: this book is actually stylis like the touch. The cover

611
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 3: has a texture to it and a textile I thought

612
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 3: a lot about like what the picture is going to

613
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 3: be that opens it. You know, there's a picture of brawn,

614
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 3: there's a picture of you know, Shaye closing it. I

615
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 3: thought about there's the opening section just really talks about

616
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 3: what is style. And they were like, why don't you

617
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 3: get right to it? And I'm like, nah, Again, the reader,

618
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 3: I think, if you pick up a book, you're willing

619
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 3: to give the writer.

620
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: You should be willing to give the writer of more

621
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: than a paragraph of your attention.

622
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 3: And so for me, it's like, can you just sing

623
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 3: on the page for two pages, you know, and talk

624
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 3: about memorable elements of uh, you know, step hitting threes

625
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 3: or Doctor J going up under the basket or AI

626
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 3: classing somebody. So for me, it's it's the images which

627
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 3: are there. But then there's the language, and there's the

628
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 3: way that this book book was put together, and then

629
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 3: there's the packaging of it. So I think of it

630
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 3: as a representation of my sense of aesthetics.

631
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: Okay, you think the book is a representation of your

632
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: sense of aesthetics. And you put the magic in a fur,

633
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: you put some of these classic photos. You put classic

634
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: photos on a diehard Laker fan. And I have always

635
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: felt like fashion was a part of the NBA, and

636
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: I don't know if we've ever highlighted it, but to me,

637
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: it has always been the time for the athlete to

638
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: show their personality, to show their style, to show who

639
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: they are. Right sometimes you can think they just got

640
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: on the sweat scene, but that's who they are. They're clothing,

641
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: one hundred percent of my opinion, indicates how they how

642
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: they phil about themselves, and how they move in this world.

643
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: Are you conveying that for everyone? And fly? I hope?

644
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 3: So I think the other thing I should have maybe

645
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 3: maybe this is as or might be more important than

646
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 3: my kind of personal sense of aesthetics, is that it

647
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 3: is a history of the league. And it's also if

648
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 3: the history of a league to me is a history

649
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 3: of America. So there's contexts historical context, social context, cultural

650
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 3: context for what was driving these fashion slash aesthetics slash

651
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 3: style choices. Right, so pre civil rights movement and what

652
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 3: the white dudes look like in the NBA and post

653
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 3: civil rights and what walk cly Fraser and Will and

654
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 3: doctor J was looking. Like you know what influence did

655
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 3: hip hop have with with Iversen and Jermaine O'Neill and

656
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 3: Vince Carter And you know what influence did Instagram have

657
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 3: with you? Or maybe we called it the dress code,

658
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 3: but certainly later on Instagram, like we don't get to

659
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 3: any of that, right, So it is also and as

660
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 3: someone who played basketball through junior college, I didn't know

661
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 3: this history, Like I didn't really know about Mike and

662
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 3: I didn't really know about the first three black players

663
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 3: that came into the league. I didn't really know about

664
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 3: the ABA and NBA merger, right, So there's a lot

665
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 3: of things that I didn't know as a lifelong basketball fan.

666
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 3: So it's a basketball history kind of it's also a

667
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 3: cultural kind of rumination on what black culture did inside

668
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 3: of sports.

669
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: I love it and that's what I was getting at, Like,

670
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 1: I love that idea and if you can do that,

671
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: especially in today's age, and I don't want to simplify

672
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 1: idiots that people aren't paying attention, But in today's age,

673
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: it's really hard to get messaging across because there's so

674
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: much there. And you present with this beautiful, colorful historical book,

675
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: not necessarily history in the sense of I'm going to

676
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: learn everything I need to know, but you put it

677
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,760
Speaker 1: in perspective where it's digestible, and you've also added fashion

678
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 1: with it, and I think that is so beautiful if

679
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 1: you had your choice, And of course I have to

680
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: get personal out here, because you played basketball, as you

681
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: have mentioned, If you could tell me who your favorite

682
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: dressed player currently is right now in the league.

683
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 3: And why, man it really it's really hard to argue

684
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 3: against SGA right now.

685
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: Shae Jullius Alexander, So he's always put together. He is

686
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 1: a fashion, he's a fashion, he's a moment, and.

687
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,919
Speaker 3: He he's I think he's so I think a lot

688
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 3: of guys, like I would say Anthony Davis is fashionable.

689
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 3: But for me, I think that's different because if you're fashionable,

690
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 3: for me, it means that you like recognize what the

691
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 3: trends are, what brands you should be wearing, and to

692
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 3: a certain degree of how you should wear them. Like

693
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 3: you look at uh at Anthony Davis. He got the

694
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 3: Gucci chirt on and he got the new lv SN right,

695
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 3: So like nobody's going to be like, nah, he ain't.

696
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 3: You know, he by drug dealer standards everywhere in there.

697
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,280
Speaker 3: But but SGA is like fash he put the red

698
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 3: hell with the you know, he's he's dealing with proportions.

699
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 3: You're really really small t shirt and you'll have bell

700
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 3: and the pants will be really shag or you know,

701
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 3: like mixing textures.

702
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: So that's style.

703
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 3: It's like taking what is available via fashion and then

704
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 3: making it into something that's a representation of your identity.

705
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 3: And that is a very few players in the league.

706
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 3: I think the league is mostly fashionable but stylish. That

707
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 3: ain't that many. I would say like D'Angelo Russell, probably

708
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 3: Jordan Clarkson. Yeah, D'Angelo Russell is like like a put

709
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 3: like a dope dealing professor.

710
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: I agree, I am, because he gives me auntie vibes

711
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 1: all the time. And I'm all like, he's cochba.

712
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 3: You look like he wear a cardion. But you'll have no.

713
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,240
Speaker 1: Okay, I see, I see what you're saying. And because

714
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: you know so, he made me mad. He made me mad.

715
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: He's committee, he made me mad, made me mad. Yes,

716
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: on the court, what I was saying, you got an audience,

717
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:12,720
Speaker 1: all this out together. Work on your shot. Yeah? Why you?

718
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: Why you the flyest of them all? Get your ass

719
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,879
Speaker 1: in the gym? Okay, So what about? What about? I'm

720
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: gonna tell you my favorite. I think Lebron and Chris

721
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 1: Paul are cleaner than clean, and it's a grown man

722
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: clean that I like. It's like, and Chris goes with

723
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: the edge of it all. But Chris, I might even

724
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: give it. Give to Chris just an inch over Lebron,

725
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: and I know they both are style there just an

726
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 1: inch more. But Lebron will come through sometimes and you'll

727
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: be like clean. But Chris forever always is just well

728
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: put together. Chris Paul and.

729
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,919
Speaker 3: The thing I think about them, I think Lebron has

730
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 3: more presence of course, of course, because he's all learn

731
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 3: Like did you see him at the plane? Yeah, I

732
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 3: saw him outfit like a white T shirt on white

733
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 3: pants and sneers. But then when I looked, he had

734
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 3: on the sparkly Louis Baton sneakers and he had like

735
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 3: the Tiffany lock bracelet in the all diamond you know,

736
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 3: so like it was very thopful. It wasn't just like

737
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 3: everybody else be like he got on the white tea

738
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 3: and black.

739
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: He's very so for me, Bron is only one that

740
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: dresses like a star. Wow.

741
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 3: Okay, you know, like Chris Paul wears some ship and

742
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 3: you could be like I could wear that, like you know,

743
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 3: but Bron, Nah, he's a star all the He always

744
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 3: shows up as a star versus some of the other players,

745
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 3: by the way, and I like Fritz Praul's like yeah.

746
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:45,919
Speaker 1: But by the way, that's a great tweet. Who looks

747
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: like the superstar today? Like that's a whole that's a

748
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: whole Instagram social media account. Yeah. I think I think

749
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: just power for pound, NBA players dressed better than football

750
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: players because football players, yeah right, because the football players.

751
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 3: Man next is hard to get out of.

752
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 1: You got an eighteen and a half. But it's just it,

753
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 1: it's so like it is not it's not it, you

754
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: know what I mean? It just isn't it. But I

755
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: don't know how to just shout out to Tyrod Taylor

756
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 1: though Tyrod Taylor, Odell O'Dell has his own thing going

757
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: Odell and what's the other? I think the Giants receiver?

758
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 1: Oh my god? What is his name?

759
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 3: You got a brother that's a that's a dB.

760
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 1: We'll get maybe if you guys know at us Adas

761
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: so we can remember. You're like, should google? I can't

762
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 1: google my phone and this is all I can do.

763
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 1: See you can't google what. I can't think about it.

764
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: I just feel like wear one. NBA players make more money,

765
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: even though this is They're all make a gross amount

766
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: of money, but I feel like there is much more

767
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 1: gladiator to what they do. So style is gonna be

768
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 1: hard for it. It's gonna be hard for a football

769
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 1: player to be the version of a shake Gillius out

770
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: of youender, Like it's just not gonna happen, you know

771
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: what I mean? Yeah, I like that you said that, Yeah,

772
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: because it's still it's still it's still guts, right, it's

773
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 1: still tear it up, you know what I mean.

774
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 3: I think for basketball players there's something like if you

775
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 3: think about black culture going all a diasporic, going back

776
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 3: to Africans, how many stories there are black people flying.

777
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 3: Like one of my favorite books is Morrison's The Song

778
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 3: of Solomon, and it's it's so much Africans flying in

779
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 3: that book, and all the stories that they tell us

780
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 3: about when we were coming over all slave ships and

781
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 3: people would jump off, but they wouldn't drown, right, they

782
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 3: would fly away. And basketball is the sport that is

783
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,720
Speaker 3: most representative of flying. Like you actually see people flying

784
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 3: in basketball, so it looks more graceful, but then it's

785
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 3: also more aspirational than any other sport. Like the rest

786
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 3: of the sports, they're on the ground mostly right, And

787
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 3: so for me, when you see a basketball player, you're

788
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 3: seeing someone who you saw fly.

789
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: Yesterday, dude literally.

790
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 3: Jumped from the free throw line, caught that ship back,

791
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 3: double clutch it.

792
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Doug give me done with it. You know,

793
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 1: old boy jumped out the gym on suspension. Uh jahan

794
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: jah jah Yeah, yeah.

795
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 3: Job you about to get that talking to in a

796
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 3: couple of days.

797
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, jaw is something special to watch and Lebron is

798
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: also something special to watch, you right, it is graceful.

799
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: But there's also other sports where I think fashion is

800
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: intrinsically implied. Like I used to cover tennis Roger Roger

801
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 1: Federer for me almost say Goodell. Roger Federer for me

802
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 1: was elegance personified on and off the court, and his

803
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: sponsors were like Rolex and Moody and all these other

804
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: elegant people. The men, the women not so lunch. The

805
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: women are not put together and so so agacy, agacy,

806
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 1: like all of these people are like can you watch it?

807
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 1: You're like, look at this fashion like it is really

808
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: a moment and it's also your PM because they truly Europeans,

809
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: so that is their style. Like the players from Barcelona

810
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: in Spain, they were always dress yes, and they were

811
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 1: always they were on the two tight gene before we

812
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: can get on the two tight gens and I was like,

813
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: these is too tight. But I but in so much

814
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: there's so much beauty and so much storytelling and fashion,

815
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 1: and I'm so glad that you put this book out

816
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 1: and I and I and I'm glad that you understood

817
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 1: the assignment when given and accordingly for the for the folks,

818
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 1: for the culture, for everyone who is things. An't even

819
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 1: just for the culture, because you already know the story.

820
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: But go back and take a moment and google his

821
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 1: a modern breakas because it's special. It's really special, and

822
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: it's just a reminder. It's just a reminders because sometimes

823
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: we forget life. Life passes. The spy and the pandemic,

824
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 1: especially twenty twenty feels twenty years ago. If you will so, Mitchell,

825
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: thank you for joining me on naked. You are a sweetheart.

826
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: Anything else you want to promote before I let you go? Nah? Nah,

827
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 1: this has been great, really great. A step On? Oh

828
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 1: that's it?

829
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 3: Okay, we got to it.

830
00:43:55,320 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 1: Oh you like what he dresses? Okay, okay, okay, Oh

831
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 1: my god, that's crazy. I forgot like step On dings.

832
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 1: You forgot all right? I adore you. Thank you so much.

833
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: Text me. We now have each other's information. We do,

834
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: we do.

835
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 3: I'm Mitchell for Portland. Put me in there, negro Oh well, I.

836
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: Think of Dave, but he's not from Portland. Dame can

837
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: dress too, that's another route. Does attempt to dress Dave

838
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: is fashionable? We need to break bread when I get back.

839
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: When I get back to the city, we'll catch it.

840
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: I'm not just saying that. My again, my well intentioned

841
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 1: self wants to do that, and do that, and do that,

842
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 1: do that. I encourage you all to find a moment

843
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: to read this essay. It's really beautiful. I'll leave you

844
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: with just towards the end, at least the excerpt from

845
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: Ammad Aubrey's story that Mitchell wrote. Some of those loved

846
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 1: ones got to see Mond play the last game of

847
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 1: his senior season, a play in which is a playoff

848
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 1: away game at Lakeside Evans High School. In the locker room,

849
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 1: the coach delivers a passionate pep talk, and Mod, accessorized

850
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 1: in toool color blue high socks and a sparkling white wristband,

851
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: leads the team in the pregame chant Yeah you're ready,

852
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 1: he shouts, She they say, and a ramble out of

853
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 1: the locker room, cleats clattering against the concrete, and onto

854
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: the field. Mod's a team captain, so he swinks onto

855
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: the fifty yard line to help call the coin tosss.

856
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: If you guys didn't know, a mod Aubrey was a

857
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 1: true athlete from top to bottom. He was running that

858
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 1: day just to get some exercise. Because that's what he did,

859
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: and the fact that he lost his life so heartbreaking

860
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: to this very day. A salute Mitchell for capturing the

861
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 1: story so beautifully, and I also salute his commitment to

862
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: telling the story of black men, whether it be fashion

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Speaker 1: or there be a mod Aubrey, whether it be just

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Speaker 1: existing in the world that we live in today. I

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Speaker 1: appreciate him for joining Naked, and I appreciate you also listen.

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Speaker 1: See you next week.