WEBVTT - Proceed with Caution - Pascal's Guide to Podcasts 0:00:15.410 --> 0:00:15.890 Pushkin. 0:00:18.370 --> 0:00:21.530 Hello everyone. The Cautionary crew were on our summer vacation 0:00:21.610 --> 0:00:24.290 at the moment, but rest assured. We're still busy cooking 0:00:24.370 --> 0:00:27.170 up plenty more Cautionary tales for the rest of the year. 0:00:27.930 --> 0:00:31.410 Usually we'd play some of our favorite classics from the archives, 0:00:31.450 --> 0:00:33.810 but this year I've got a treat from behind the 0:00:33.850 --> 0:00:37.730 curtain of the Cautionary Club. Once a month, we release 0:00:37.770 --> 0:00:40.890 a bonus conversation to Cautionary Club members in which I 0:00:40.890 --> 0:00:44.570 discussed the podcast with another member of the team, exploring 0:00:44.610 --> 0:00:48.130 tangents and behind the scenes details from a recent episode. 0:00:48.570 --> 0:00:50.650 I thought it might be nice for everyone else to 0:00:50.690 --> 0:00:54.130 hear one of these chats too. The conversation I'm about 0:00:54.130 --> 0:00:57.730 to play is with Pascal Wise, our beloved composer and 0:00:57.850 --> 0:01:01.090 sound designer. It was released just after the episode about 0:01:01.130 --> 0:01:06.610 Incompetent Nazis, Dumb and Dummer. Pascal showed me his workspace 0:01:06.650 --> 0:01:10.370 for that episode, explained how he builds up a sonic atmosphere, 0:01:10.530 --> 0:01:13.170 how he decides what type of instruments to use, and 0:01:13.370 --> 0:01:17.330 also talks about his most hated sounds with which to work. 0:01:17.610 --> 0:01:20.970 These interviews are all released in video and audio on 0:01:21.010 --> 0:01:23.850 our Patreon, and there are plenty to listen to. If 0:01:23.850 --> 0:01:26.770 you'd like to hear more, head to patreon dot com 0:01:26.810 --> 0:01:38.090 slash Cautionary Club enjoy. In the new year, we have 0:01:38.130 --> 0:01:42.530 a special treat view. I am joined by Cautionary Tales Maestro, 0:01:43.250 --> 0:01:49.370 audio Wizard, sonic scholar, our multi award winning sound designer 0:01:49.450 --> 0:01:54.130 and composer, the one and only Pascal Wise. Pascal has 0:01:54.170 --> 0:01:57.170 been on Cautionary Tale since the beginning and we are never, 0:01:57.610 --> 0:02:01.810 ever ever going to let him go because what he 0:02:01.850 --> 0:02:05.050 does in his studio is what brings our stories to life. 0:02:05.370 --> 0:02:08.010 And Pascal has kindly agreed to take me through how 0:02:08.010 --> 0:02:10.010 he does what he does to show me what an 0:02:10.010 --> 0:02:13.450 episode looks like when he's building it. Hello Pascal, Welcome 0:02:13.490 --> 0:02:14.330 to proceed. 0:02:14.010 --> 0:02:18.410 With caution Hello Tim, I mean, what a glorious introduction. 0:02:18.730 --> 0:02:20.570 I mean we could just stop now, can't we? 0:02:21.050 --> 0:02:21.090 You? 0:02:21.450 --> 0:02:22.250 You deserve more. 0:02:22.290 --> 0:02:24.770 You deserve more, But I'm not going to let you 0:02:24.810 --> 0:02:30.770 go until you'll answer some questions. So broadly speaking, what 0:02:31.290 --> 0:02:33.290 is the job of a sound designer? What is it 0:02:33.330 --> 0:02:34.050 that you do. 0:02:36.130 --> 0:02:41.010 In the podcast world? Sound designer really can mean, you know, 0:02:41.210 --> 0:02:44.890 practically anything from sort of making tea to cleaning up 0:02:44.970 --> 0:02:48.370 arms and ours to writing bits of orchestral music. It's 0:02:48.410 --> 0:02:52.410 a really big umbrella, I think in the origins of 0:02:52.450 --> 0:02:55.650 it in film, and the most one of the most 0:02:55.690 --> 0:02:58.490 plausible stories I've heard of where the term comes from 0:02:58.650 --> 0:03:02.770 is Walter Merch having a high speed to fill in 0:03:02.810 --> 0:03:06.890 a visa application when filming Apocalypse Now, for which he 0:03:07.010 --> 0:03:11.290 was editor and sound design, and he literally just needed 0:03:11.290 --> 0:03:12.890 to put something on phone. Why you here? What are 0:03:12.930 --> 0:03:17.090 you doing? Oh? Sound designer? So I think the term stuck. 0:03:17.330 --> 0:03:17.530 You know. 0:03:17.810 --> 0:03:19.970 A sound designer, I think is someone who is often 0:03:20.010 --> 0:03:23.490 involved with creating worlds of sound, and maybe even creating 0:03:23.530 --> 0:03:26.290 sound for things that you know don't really exist yet, 0:03:26.490 --> 0:03:28.890 or perhaps particularly in things like science fiction. 0:03:29.170 --> 0:03:31.930 The Star Wars, lasers but which or whatever they are, 0:03:31.970 --> 0:03:33.690 phases or blasters or whatever. 0:03:34.090 --> 0:03:38.410 Hammers on telegraph wires. You know, it's a great sound effect. 0:03:38.610 --> 0:03:41.130 But in terms of you know what happens on cautionary tales, 0:03:41.570 --> 0:03:46.570 I'm taking the words that you've beautifully recorded and have 0:03:46.690 --> 0:03:52.130 them been beautifully edited down by Marilyn, and I'm putting 0:03:52.170 --> 0:03:54.250 everything else in everything else you hear. 0:03:54.450 --> 0:04:00.050 So Marilyn Marilyn Ross, one of our producers. She's there 0:04:00.090 --> 0:04:02.490 in the studio with me while I am sitting in 0:04:02.490 --> 0:04:05.410 front of a microphone and I'm reading my script and 0:04:05.450 --> 0:04:08.330 she's saying, you know, do it properly this time to 0:04:08.410 --> 0:04:11.210 him that kind of thing. You will have delivered to 0:04:11.250 --> 0:04:14.930 you an audio file which has a fairly clean take 0:04:14.970 --> 0:04:19.090 of me reading the script without arms and without errors. 0:04:19.090 --> 0:04:22.210 But so then what good question? 0:04:24.370 --> 0:04:27.010 What I would do next is what I think traditionally 0:04:27.050 --> 0:04:33.330 would be called spotting. What that involves is just sitting 0:04:33.490 --> 0:04:36.570 listening to the story. And at this point I don't 0:04:36.610 --> 0:04:38.370 tend to read a script at the same time. I 0:04:38.570 --> 0:04:42.410 just listened to it and I will start putting. I 0:04:42.410 --> 0:04:44.810 don't know if my screen is already shared, is it? 0:04:45.690 --> 0:04:48.410 I see these green bars kind of like, yeah, expanding 0:04:48.410 --> 0:04:50.890 and contracting like a concertina what. 0:04:50.890 --> 0:04:55.570 I'm showing you there? And this is interesting because you know, 0:04:55.690 --> 0:04:59.210 the idea of spotting a show is it's very simple. 0:04:59.410 --> 0:05:02.010 It's sitting down and this will often take place, say 0:05:02.010 --> 0:05:06.090 with a director or something, and deciding when it needs 0:05:06.210 --> 0:05:11.770 music and where that music should be. And in this case, 0:05:11.890 --> 0:05:15.330 I'm also deciding when does it need sound, sound effects, 0:05:15.370 --> 0:05:19.730 sound design, and where that should begin and end it. 0:05:19.970 --> 0:05:22.530 I mean, it's an interesting question. Then when when does 0:05:22.530 --> 0:05:24.650 the music come in? When does the sound effects come in? 0:05:24.690 --> 0:05:29.490 Because I was I was listening to a recent episode 0:05:29.770 --> 0:05:33.290 when Hitler invaded Florida The dormund. 0:05:34.370 --> 0:05:35.850 Oh, yeah, I really enjoyed that. 0:05:36.210 --> 0:05:40.610 Yeah, I enjoyed it too. But I was struggle. There 0:05:40.650 --> 0:05:46.010 was a moment where I've described a U boat stuck 0:05:46.050 --> 0:05:49.730 on a sand bank and it's revving its engines, and 0:05:49.770 --> 0:05:51.450 I don't think there was a sound of effect for 0:05:51.490 --> 0:05:54.530 revving engines at that particular thing. I think you decided, 0:05:55.010 --> 0:05:56.410 or if there was, it was a very subtle. 0:05:57.130 --> 0:05:58.970 Oh there is, yeah, but it's subtle. 0:05:59.890 --> 0:06:02.050 It's an interesting question as to when you really want 0:06:02.050 --> 0:06:05.170 to go hard and make the sound of put the 0:06:05.170 --> 0:06:07.370 sound effect right in the foreground, and when you want 0:06:07.650 --> 0:06:10.810 it to be very subtle or maybe nothing at all. 0:06:10.970 --> 0:06:15.290 While I'm completely in favor of the idea that all 0:06:15.370 --> 0:06:18.810 rules are there to be broken, there are one or 0:06:18.810 --> 0:06:22.610 two little things that we have tended to do in 0:06:22.650 --> 0:06:28.090 this show. One is that you will hear something before 0:06:28.170 --> 0:06:32.090 it is mentioned, rather than after it's mentioned. Now, that 0:06:32.210 --> 0:06:35.530 process I think of hearing something that has been said 0:06:36.770 --> 0:06:40.330 is sometimes referred to as mickey mousing, in reference to 0:06:41.050 --> 0:06:46.890 the extraordinary musicians who used to play against the cartoons 0:06:46.930 --> 0:06:48.850 such as Mickey Mouse, Tom and Jerry and all that, 0:06:49.610 --> 0:06:52.090 where literally what you see is what you hear and 0:06:52.130 --> 0:06:56.850 you get this kind of synesthesia, you know, and that's 0:06:56.890 --> 0:07:01.250 something that does happen very occasionally in cautionary tales. But 0:07:01.290 --> 0:07:03.170 I feel like it's something that should be reserved, should 0:07:03.170 --> 0:07:06.330 be in exception rather than a rule. And I think 0:07:06.370 --> 0:07:11.170 that you know, you are, in a sense the singer 0:07:11.210 --> 0:07:13.290 in the band. You know, it's I think it's a 0:07:13.290 --> 0:07:17.130 mistake when you're dealing with the spoken word to not 0:07:17.210 --> 0:07:19.970 appreciate that in terms of the overall band, all of 0:07:20.010 --> 0:07:22.250 the sound and the music, you're sort of like the 0:07:22.290 --> 0:07:26.170 central character. You're delivering the story. So what we've got 0:07:26.170 --> 0:07:28.370 to try and do is is kind of help you 0:07:28.450 --> 0:07:32.450 out and make the world for you, illustrate that world, 0:07:32.650 --> 0:07:37.090 but not not just dumbly replicate what you're already doing 0:07:37.210 --> 0:07:38.090 very well for us. 0:07:38.690 --> 0:07:43.130 Something one of one of Frank Sinatra's arrangers said, and 0:07:43.130 --> 0:07:45.890 I'm now I'm now comparing myself to Frank Sinatra and 0:07:45.930 --> 0:07:50.130 comparing you to Frank Sinatra's ranger. So it's enormously vain 0:07:50.210 --> 0:07:55.490 of me, but I need a different hat. Yeah, but 0:07:56.170 --> 0:07:58.450 what he said, is or when Frank's moving, get out 0:07:58.490 --> 0:08:00.490 of the way. And when he's not moving, you've got 0:08:00.530 --> 0:08:02.610 to get in there quick. And I wonder whether that 0:08:03.130 --> 0:08:03.970 resonated or not. 0:08:04.650 --> 0:08:07.730 I love that. I love that. Yeah, that's really interesting. 0:08:07.930 --> 0:08:13.170 Yeah, can we talk about DOM Yeah, I mean spoiler 0:08:13.210 --> 0:08:17.490 for those because it's fairly recent. Those who haven't heard it, 0:08:18.170 --> 0:08:19.850 you might want to pause and listen to it before 0:08:19.850 --> 0:08:22.410 we before we go through it, because there might be spoilers. 0:08:22.450 --> 0:08:27.010 But this is a story about eight idiot Nazis who 0:08:28.690 --> 0:08:33.570 try to sabotage the US and do not succeed. But 0:08:33.610 --> 0:08:36.610 there's a lot of potential sound effects the doors slamming 0:08:36.650 --> 0:08:42.130 and phones ringing and U boats and yeah, so talk 0:08:42.210 --> 0:08:43.690 us through that process. 0:08:44.650 --> 0:08:48.490 Yeah. Interesting, And I have that particular session in front 0:08:48.570 --> 0:08:51.650 of me. What a great start to twenty twenty six. 0:08:51.730 --> 0:08:55.330 You know, I opened up the computer rather rustily on 0:08:56.010 --> 0:08:59.850 January five or whatever it was, and was immediately presented 0:08:59.930 --> 0:09:03.410 with a scene involving a man injecting his penis with 0:09:04.610 --> 0:09:10.450 diluted by carmen of soda. H Yes, interesting, I thought, 0:09:10.530 --> 0:09:16.850 here we go, hits cautionary tales again, start helping how 0:09:16.890 --> 0:09:20.650 to deal with that, you know, what what to demonstrate 0:09:21.210 --> 0:09:25.530 or illustrate, and what not to So I decided on 0:09:25.610 --> 0:09:29.010 this that I liked the idea of starting the episode 0:09:29.090 --> 0:09:34.650 with this, you know, slightly ordinary fumbling around in the 0:09:34.770 --> 0:09:38.170 kitchen or whatever. Let's just hear that first bit. 0:09:40.810 --> 0:09:44.770 Joseph Schmidt drops a spoonful of baking soda into a 0:09:44.770 --> 0:09:50.770 glass of water and stirs until the powder dissolves. He 0:09:50.890 --> 0:09:55.090 takes a swinge and draws up some of the solution. 0:09:56.450 --> 0:10:01.170 Then he pulls down his pants and carefully injects the 0:10:01.210 --> 0:10:07.610 baking soda into the tip of his penis. Desperate times 0:10:07.890 --> 0:10:08.930 call for desperate? 0:10:09.970 --> 0:10:12.770 Was this literally you in the kitchen? Kind of Yes, 0:10:12.810 --> 0:10:16.010 it was some kind of effervescent thing in a glass. Yeah, 0:10:16.530 --> 0:10:19.490 hopefully your penis was not involved, but you know, if 0:10:19.490 --> 0:10:20.490 it is, there's no judgment. 0:10:20.610 --> 0:10:24.490 No, no, no penises were harmed in the making of 0:10:24.530 --> 0:10:26.650 this episode. 0:10:27.770 --> 0:10:27.850 No. 0:10:27.930 --> 0:10:29.770 Yeah, it's sort of like method sound, isn't it. Yeah. 0:10:29.930 --> 0:10:33.370 I literally brought some baking sod and water into the 0:10:34.490 --> 0:10:39.810 into the studio and did that. Now, the practicalities of 0:10:39.850 --> 0:10:42.490 making a show that's thirty five forty minutes long and 0:10:42.530 --> 0:10:46.690 needs scoring and sound designing in a certain timeframe means 0:10:47.890 --> 0:10:49.890 there's often a lot of you know, there's there's certain 0:10:49.970 --> 0:10:52.410 kinds of corner cutting, and there's a lot I have 0:10:52.490 --> 0:10:54.610 lots of sound libraries, but there are certain things that 0:10:54.650 --> 0:10:56.650 are just they're not going to be in there, and 0:10:57.290 --> 0:10:59.690 so in the quality that you want or the style 0:10:59.730 --> 0:11:01.370 that you want, and it's that sort of quicker to 0:11:01.410 --> 0:11:03.730 do it yourself, and I really want I wanted to 0:11:03.730 --> 0:11:04.450 illustrate that. 0:11:05.010 --> 0:11:07.210 So a sound library would be, oh, I'd like a 0:11:07.250 --> 0:11:09.050 sound of someone messing around in the kitchen. 0:11:08.890 --> 0:11:11.290 Or some sound libraries are full of all the all 0:11:11.290 --> 0:11:14.850 the classic stuff, whether it's cars crashing or buildings falling 0:11:14.890 --> 0:11:20.890 down or you know, arrows, bullets, screams, all kinds of stuff. 0:11:20.570 --> 0:11:24.490 And presumably of a car crash or a building falling 0:11:24.530 --> 0:11:27.090 down is not I'm sure you could have a go, 0:11:27.490 --> 0:11:29.090 but that's not the kind of thing it's easy to 0:11:29.130 --> 0:11:29.970 generate at home. 0:11:30.810 --> 0:11:34.290 Yeah quite. I mean I love to record my own material. 0:11:34.330 --> 0:11:36.610 I do lots of field recording, and it gets used 0:11:36.610 --> 0:11:38.810 a loss in cause to me tales. But yeah, when 0:11:38.850 --> 0:11:43.530 we're in the business of crashing airliners or having tankers 0:11:43.770 --> 0:11:47.250 run aground, I just like, oh, yeah, darling, I'm just. 0:11:47.210 --> 0:11:49.690 Going to go and run an oil tanker into the 0:11:49.730 --> 0:11:50.490 seven systems. 0:11:50.810 --> 0:11:53.170 Yeah, I'm going to go down as seven four seven. 0:11:53.570 --> 0:11:58.330 There was one particular plane crash episode, a very harrowing 0:11:59.090 --> 0:12:01.770 story of air France four four seven, where an airline 0:12:01.810 --> 0:12:05.410 pilot wrote to me and said, you even got the 0:12:06.090 --> 0:12:09.250 correct cockpit alarms from the right kind of plane. So 0:12:09.530 --> 0:12:11.810 there is attention to detail there. I do admire. 0:12:12.450 --> 0:12:23.730 Yes, I think or I think it's this one. 0:12:26.930 --> 0:12:30.410 Yes, that's the episode. And he was like, no, you've 0:12:30.410 --> 0:12:33.410 got you didn't just make that one up. That's the 0:12:33.410 --> 0:12:36.730 real alarm anyway, Sorry, I interrupted. 0:12:36.330 --> 0:12:39.850 No, not at all. So in that I decided with 0:12:39.970 --> 0:12:42.370 that that once you once you sort of start to 0:12:42.410 --> 0:12:46.810 hear the fizzing of the bicarminate of soda, I felt 0:12:46.850 --> 0:12:50.250 like the imagination kind of takes over. And I liked 0:12:50.290 --> 0:12:54.570 the way that sound was, yes, illustrative of what was happening, 0:12:54.690 --> 0:12:57.090 but it was also it created almost just like a 0:12:57.170 --> 0:12:59.610 nice field of sound, you know, like a sort of 0:12:59.690 --> 0:13:04.810 a fizz that was just illustrative of the whole situation, 0:13:05.050 --> 0:13:08.650 not just you know, what is actually doing and knowing 0:13:08.690 --> 0:13:11.650 that I really didn't want to mickey mouse a sense 0:13:11.690 --> 0:13:14.050 of like, oh, you know or whatever. 0:13:15.330 --> 0:13:18.490 And the sound of a swinge anyway. So yeah, so 0:13:18.530 --> 0:13:20.610 that's where the music comes in. Yeah. 0:13:20.650 --> 0:13:23.170 I think what's really interesting is this really good example 0:13:23.170 --> 0:13:26.610 of where the music takes over from what you might 0:13:26.650 --> 0:13:30.930 call sound design. It almost it hands over, and I 0:13:31.010 --> 0:13:35.210 felt that the point of sort of him puncturing, if 0:13:35.210 --> 0:13:38.490 you like, was was much better handled musically. 0:13:39.250 --> 0:13:43.210 Injects the baking soda into the tip of his penis 0:13:45.370 --> 0:13:47.810 desperate times called Yes. 0:13:47.770 --> 0:13:51.290 It's something that's sort of like yeah, but it's it's 0:13:51.330 --> 0:13:54.930 slightly removed from the practical, you know, and that I 0:13:54.930 --> 0:13:59.850 wouldn't know we do it workshop on that later. That 0:13:59.970 --> 0:14:02.490 also gives me something that can be recalled later in 0:14:02.530 --> 0:14:05.290 the episode that hopefully what you've done then is you 0:14:05.370 --> 0:14:08.810 planted the idea of that note being a moment of strange, 0:14:09.170 --> 0:14:13.130 you know, desperate discomfort. And then later if I just 0:14:13.170 --> 0:14:15.850 plock that note in, hopefully there's a sense of, you know, 0:14:16.010 --> 0:14:20.050 recalling that I've got a note up here of engines. Now, 0:14:20.770 --> 0:14:23.250 let's see it's interesting what your memory is of this. 0:14:23.650 --> 0:14:24.570 Let's see what I did do. 0:14:25.170 --> 0:14:27.970 They followed the young coastguard through the fog to where 0:14:28.010 --> 0:14:33.730 he'd encountered the men. The men weren't there, but they 0:14:33.810 --> 0:14:37.530 could hear the roar of engines and smell diesel fumes. 0:14:38.010 --> 0:14:43.370 The fog briefly eased, revealing a long, dark shape a 0:14:43.610 --> 0:14:43.970 U boke. 0:14:46.090 --> 0:14:48.850 Yeah, so I've sort of hedged it. It's not a 0:14:48.890 --> 0:14:52.050 big raw. I've gone for a sort of a bit 0:14:52.090 --> 0:14:58.810 more of a putter. Were obviously in cause detales, we 0:14:58.970 --> 0:15:02.170 sometimes have aspects of it acted, and I think that's 0:15:02.370 --> 0:15:04.810 a really interesting conversation of its own. You know when 0:15:04.850 --> 0:15:06.250 to do that and when not. 0:15:07.410 --> 0:15:10.290 Yeah, because often I will just the lines that could 0:15:10.290 --> 0:15:13.010 potentially be given to an actor, and it's partly a 0:15:13.050 --> 0:15:16.530 matter of budget, and it's partly a matter of taste. 0:15:16.610 --> 0:15:19.250 Sometimes it's great to hear an actor and sometimes you've 0:15:19.250 --> 0:15:20.290 got like three words. 0:15:20.330 --> 0:15:23.730 And so this was really interesting. You know, the coastguard 0:15:24.170 --> 0:15:28.690 is shouting at them, and it felt important. You know, 0:15:28.810 --> 0:15:33.130 the perspective of this felt important to me. You know 0:15:33.170 --> 0:15:37.730 that this person should sound distant to them. This is Jamal, 0:15:37.930 --> 0:15:40.250 who I think is going to be in the next 0:15:40.290 --> 0:15:44.210 Star Wars film. That's what I've heard. Very exciting, and 0:15:44.250 --> 0:15:46.850 I know that in this, for instance, Marilyn with a 0:15:47.170 --> 0:15:49.570 keen ear for what's probably going to happen further down 0:15:49.570 --> 0:15:54.250 the line, ask Jamal to stand off the mic, stand 0:15:54.290 --> 0:15:57.090 away from it, which is really important actually, and it's 0:15:57.130 --> 0:15:59.970 so easy not to forget that kind of stuff, you know, people, 0:16:01.610 --> 0:16:04.090 there's such a different sound when someone is shouting from 0:16:04.090 --> 0:16:06.970 a distance, and the way the perspective with you and 0:16:07.010 --> 0:16:10.450 the mic is really important. So there's a little bit 0:16:10.490 --> 0:16:12.330 of reverb still on this, but we go. 0:16:12.810 --> 0:16:13.370 Who are you? 0:16:14.930 --> 0:16:18.250 Which is close that's close to but not quite but 0:16:18.330 --> 0:16:20.650 close to what was captured in the studio. So Jamal's 0:16:20.650 --> 0:16:22.850 in the studio yelling at a mic from across the room. 0:16:23.410 --> 0:16:26.930 Yeah. Then we put on something in this case which 0:16:27.490 --> 0:16:31.250 it's almost like a quick and easy artificial thing to 0:16:31.290 --> 0:16:35.930 give it a sense of distance. Who are you? Now? 0:16:36.250 --> 0:16:38.330 It hasn't given it a sense of distance yet in 0:16:38.410 --> 0:16:40.330 terms of it sounding further away. What it's done is 0:16:40.370 --> 0:16:42.930 it's taken off some of the high frequencies which would 0:16:42.970 --> 0:16:46.850 tend to be lost. And then I'll put it into 0:16:46.890 --> 0:16:53.170 this thing, which is a kind of binaural encoder, which 0:16:53.450 --> 0:16:56.090 has a very good sense of placing something off to 0:16:56.170 --> 0:16:59.570 the distance. And I've there's a head here which and 0:16:59.890 --> 0:17:04.330 where I've placed him is demonstrated by the two dots here, 0:17:04.770 --> 0:17:08.450 So if you put it all together, it sounds who 0:17:08.530 --> 0:17:14.290 are you? Like that? And then more distance and then 0:17:14.970 --> 0:17:19.050 are you? And again once it's mixed with the background 0:17:19.090 --> 0:17:22.130 it it helps it sound even more distant. 0:17:23.610 --> 0:17:25.650 And there's so much going on, and that's that's just 0:17:27.010 --> 0:17:30.050 that's one and a half seconds or two seconds of audio, 0:17:30.810 --> 0:17:35.210 and you've got you've got Marilyn in the studio with Jamal. 0:17:35.370 --> 0:17:39.810 They're working together to create a certain performance recorded in 0:17:39.850 --> 0:17:43.930 a certain way. And then you're then thinking, Okay, how's 0:17:44.010 --> 0:17:46.010 how does this sound? How's this How does this fit 0:17:46.050 --> 0:17:48.170 with the sound effects? Do we want to sound like 0:17:48.210 --> 0:17:49.810 we're next to Jamal? Do we want to sound like 0:17:49.810 --> 0:17:51.610 we're a long way away from Jamal? There's so much 0:17:51.890 --> 0:17:53.570 and this is just a couple of seconds. 0:17:53.170 --> 0:17:57.450 Of and then we've got it's incredible exactly. Yeah, We've 0:17:57.450 --> 0:18:07.250 got three layers of water one plus a more of 0:18:07.290 --> 0:18:11.970 a distant seed one, so we know that that's the 0:18:12.010 --> 0:18:15.690 close stuff. There's the more distant seawashed, and then we 0:18:15.730 --> 0:18:18.850 know that there's also going to be some way. I've 0:18:18.850 --> 0:18:24.290 got a few of those. Quite a lot going on, 0:18:24.410 --> 0:18:26.970 even in a bit of the show actually, which is 0:18:27.090 --> 0:18:29.210 fairly calm. 0:18:28.770 --> 0:18:30.770 Calm, but there's a real sense of place there. 0:18:31.490 --> 0:18:36.290 Yeah, and there's there's a actually got a foghorn and 0:18:38.010 --> 0:18:41.170 played around with it, changed its pitch quite a lot. 0:18:41.650 --> 0:18:43.650 Interesting because because there's no I don't think there's a 0:18:43.650 --> 0:18:46.170 foghorn actually in the episode, so this is subliminal. 0:18:46.290 --> 0:18:53.490 There's a gong in there as well. Forgot about that. 0:18:55.050 --> 0:18:58.610 That's giving us a sense of something quite ominous, hopefully. 0:18:59.770 --> 0:18:59.970 You know. 0:19:00.170 --> 0:19:02.530 One of the biggest problems you face when you sit down, 0:19:02.850 --> 0:19:07.850 particularly with the extraordinary technology technologies that are available, not 0:19:08.010 --> 0:19:11.450 to mention you know the huge resources in terms of instruments, 0:19:11.530 --> 0:19:14.450 is you just face with the infinite. And it's almost 0:19:14.490 --> 0:19:16.890 a cautionary tale in itself. You know, how how on 0:19:16.930 --> 0:19:19.450 earth do you start making decisions in a in an 0:19:19.490 --> 0:19:22.210 infinite space? It's like, because you could do anything. So 0:19:23.250 --> 0:19:26.610 I'm always hunting for ways to narrow my options down 0:19:26.690 --> 0:19:29.450 and and I just find it very satisfying to try 0:19:29.490 --> 0:19:34.570 and build the music from instruments that just have some 0:19:34.570 --> 0:19:38.250 some relationship to the story. And that could be something 0:19:38.290 --> 0:19:42.610 really simple, like if we're at sea and constantly talking 0:19:42.650 --> 0:19:45.890 about vessels that are larger metallic than I might aim 0:19:46.090 --> 0:19:49.890 for you know, big metallic drums or in this or 0:19:50.090 --> 0:19:53.290 like in this, you know the foghorn, And even if 0:19:53.330 --> 0:19:55.090 it's not sounding like a foghorn, there's a kind of 0:19:55.210 --> 0:19:59.370 DNA in there that I think hopefully travels through, you know, 0:19:59.410 --> 0:20:00.450 to the final thing. 0:20:01.090 --> 0:20:05.250 Tell me more about about how you use music and 0:20:05.290 --> 0:20:08.370 how much you use music, because I mean, potentially you 0:20:08.410 --> 0:20:12.050 could compose music for every second of audio, but actually 0:20:12.010 --> 0:20:13.810 you want to be much more sparing than that. 0:20:14.530 --> 0:20:17.650 I remember Mike Figures being interviewed the film director and 0:20:17.730 --> 0:20:22.050 saying that applying music to film, and I think it 0:20:22.090 --> 0:20:25.530 could be said also of you know, podcasting or any storytelling. 0:20:26.370 --> 0:20:29.610 So he said, it's it's sort of addictive. Once you start, 0:20:30.250 --> 0:20:32.170 it's very hard to kind of rein it in, and 0:20:32.250 --> 0:20:34.330 before you know it, the whole thing is covered in music. 0:20:34.370 --> 0:20:37.650 And I think you then lose, you lose the power 0:20:37.690 --> 0:20:42.730 of it. You you end up with something that never 0:20:42.850 --> 0:20:48.130 really never really sort of surprises, never really makes the 0:20:48.170 --> 0:20:51.410 best of itself, because it's just become a constant presence, 0:20:51.970 --> 0:20:55.570 and it's constantly illustrating or even trying to instruct the 0:20:55.650 --> 0:21:00.690 viewer as to what to hear. So I tend to 0:21:00.730 --> 0:21:04.090 look It's almost like I'm hunting more for places where 0:21:04.810 --> 0:21:07.250 I don't need to use music, and that's part of 0:21:07.290 --> 0:21:09.690 that's just practical, you know, we've got certain amount of 0:21:09.730 --> 0:21:13.890 time and budget to make the stuff. 0:21:13.570 --> 0:21:13.770 You know. 0:21:15.410 --> 0:21:17.730 Rather than thinking, oh, we can have music here, I 0:21:17.810 --> 0:21:20.970 try and be really disciplined and go, this doesn't need anything, 0:21:21.250 --> 0:21:23.610 you know, because you've got to really force yourself to go. 0:21:24.450 --> 0:21:26.170 You know, what do I add here? What do I 0:21:26.570 --> 0:21:33.130 flesh out for the listener? I suppose my feeling is 0:21:34.770 --> 0:21:38.890 use it as sparingly as you can and try and 0:21:39.130 --> 0:21:44.330 find spaces around the emotion that the words are already conveying. 0:21:45.010 --> 0:21:46.850 So, Pascal, are you ready for a couple of quick 0:21:46.890 --> 0:21:48.370 fire questions to wrap up? 0:21:48.570 --> 0:21:49.970 Yeah? Go on, then I should have a sort of 0:21:50.010 --> 0:21:52.810 bell or something, shouldn't I okay? So what is the 0:21:53.610 --> 0:21:57.290 hardest scene that you've ever had to work on? 0:21:57.330 --> 0:21:57.450 For? 0:21:57.490 --> 0:22:02.530 Caution me tales battles, things with lots of footsteps do 0:22:02.690 --> 0:22:06.610 my head in Although for the marathon episode, I just 0:22:06.730 --> 0:22:09.890 literally went out running and epping for it and hung 0:22:09.890 --> 0:22:12.330 a mic, you know, in front of me. So that 0:22:12.410 --> 0:22:15.730 was quite a nice solution to that problem. But yeah, 0:22:15.770 --> 0:22:20.210 the really tricky bits are where you have a lot 0:22:20.210 --> 0:22:24.690 of human activity that needs choreographing, and I've decided we 0:22:24.730 --> 0:22:27.290 should hear it. You know, the sort of shuffling from 0:22:27.490 --> 0:22:31.370 one place to another, doing something like opening a bag, whatever, 0:22:31.770 --> 0:22:34.690 closing a door. Footsteps and that kind of stuff are 0:22:34.730 --> 0:22:38.970 really tricky. There are time sink and they're hard to 0:22:39.010 --> 0:22:42.250 get right, hard to get believable. Footsteps, particularly if I 0:22:42.250 --> 0:22:44.770 can nominate anything, it would be footsteps. They are a 0:22:44.770 --> 0:22:49.930 real pain. And do you have a favorite episode. I'm 0:22:49.970 --> 0:22:52.650 really fond of Jaws. I have to say I really 0:22:52.730 --> 0:22:55.690 enjoyed working that through. 0:22:56.170 --> 0:23:01.050 You had to pastiche the famous Jaws soundtrack, which we 0:23:01.050 --> 0:23:04.250 weren't allowed to use. You needed to kind of call 0:23:04.290 --> 0:23:06.490 it to people's mind how to be. 0:23:06.570 --> 0:23:19.730 John Williams in One Afternoon. Quite often face with that challenge, 0:23:19.730 --> 0:23:22.250 which is, you know, we are referring to a composer, 0:23:22.490 --> 0:23:24.970 so it would be ridiculous for you not to somehow 0:23:25.010 --> 0:23:26.970 nod to it. But you can't do it. You can't. 0:23:27.090 --> 0:23:29.130 You know, you have to try and satisfy your own 0:23:29.170 --> 0:23:32.810 creativity by doing something that resonates, but you also need 0:23:32.850 --> 0:23:34.890 to make that person think of that composer. So you know, 0:23:34.850 --> 0:23:39.250 the same with Keith Jarrett and the Coln episode trying 0:23:39.290 --> 0:23:45.250 to do my own John Williams impression. I mean, yeah, 0:23:43.930 --> 0:23:48.490 fools errand that, but really good fun to work on. 0:23:49.770 --> 0:23:52.450 Lots of lovely sort of terms in that episode. 0:23:52.970 --> 0:23:55.810 We feel very lucky to have you Passala. I'm sure 0:23:55.970 --> 0:23:58.290 I'm sure many of our listeners feel the same way. 0:23:58.730 --> 0:24:01.130 It's great because the show resets every week. 0:24:01.690 --> 0:24:04.810