WEBVTT - The Real Killer Season 2: Ep. 10, The Clock Is Ticking 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:06.280 A warning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:10.640 that may be disturbing to some listeners. In the United States, 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:15.880 only people get the depth. John poor white, poor blacks, 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:18.880 and poor his fans. You know, I don't know, rich person, 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:24.920 don't get that type of guilty. Derek Jamison death Row 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:29.320 Exonerie number one nineteen came within hours of being executed 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:32.559 by the State of Ohio. We got one of the 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:35.919 best court systems in the world, but we make mistake 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:39.360 and we should never had a death Johney, because a 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:43.360 lot of poor people go die, like Keith Lamar, who 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:45.879 is scheduled to be executed by the State of Ohio 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:49.920 on November sixteenth, twenty twenty three. No, my time, the 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:54.840 clappers went out, putting Keith's innocence or guilt aside. Is 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:58.400 the death penalty fair? And will the changes some are 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:02.440 trying to make even in this case, and now we're 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:07.720 down two months. My time is steadily you know, running out. 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:20.800 I'm Leah Rothman. This is the real Killer Episode ten. 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:34.520 The clock is ticking. Let's be real. The death penalty 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:38.560 has been a controversial subject for some time now. It 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:41.800 seems the first recorded execution in the United States was 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:44.759 in sixteen oh eight, when the states were still just 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:48.600 a bunch of colonies. According to a database of executions 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:52.960 called the sp File, from sixteen oh eight to nineteen 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:58.880 seventy six, more than fourteen thousand people were executed. According 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:03.080 to the Death Penalty Information Center, since nineteen seventy six, 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:06.800 there have been fifteen hundred and sixty three people executed 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:10.680 in the United States, and in Ohio. Since the state 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:14.639 first started executing people, three hundred and ninety three people 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:18.680 have been put to death. In the eighteen hundreds, people 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:23.600 were publicly hanged, then came the electric chair. In nineteen 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:26.679 seventy two, the US Supreme Court ruled that the death 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:31.520 penalty was unconstitutional. In seventy four, the state revised the 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:34.840 death penalty law, but the US Supreme Court rejected it. 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.920 So in nineteen eighty one, Ohio drafted a new law 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:43.079 to reflect the strict criteria for imposing the death sentence, 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:49.520 and lawmakers enacted that Eighteen years later, the state resumed 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:55.680 executions there. First was Wilfred Barry, nicknamed the Volunteer because 0:02:55.880 --> 0:03:01.040 Barry actually volunteered to be executed. In two thousand and one, 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:04.480 the states stopped using the electric chair and Old Sparky, 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:10.079 the electric chair at Lucasville was officially decommissioned. All executions 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:13.680 from that point on have been carried out by lethal injection. 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:19.520 Some years later, Dayton's WDTN reports a Preble County killer 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:23.560 is dead tonight after the state's first execution of twenty fourteen, 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.600 Dennis McGuire was also the first in the nation to 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:29.919 receive a new two drug combination because of a shortage 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:35.320 of penabarbital. Reportedly because of that new drug cocktail, Dennis 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:39.080 McGuire chokes and gasps for air for almost twenty five 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:43.680 minutes before dying. In the years that follow, several executions 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:48.440 are stayed because of questions regarding Ohio's execution protocol, but 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:52.400 in twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen, three more people are 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:56.480 put to death. Then there's another break in the carrying 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:01.080 out of executions, but not in the eduling of them. 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:06.280 In December of twenty eighteen, Cincinnati's w KRC Local twelve 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:10.240 reports the Ohio Supreme Court set an execution day for 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:13.960 Keith Lamar. He's scheduled to die November sixteenth of twenty 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:18.920 twenty three, just months after Keith's date is set. A 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:23.240 federal judge comes out and compares Ohio's execution protocol to 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:28.839 a combination of waterboarding, suffocation, and exposure to chemical fire. 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:34.320 So Governor Mike DeWine postpones executions in twenty nineteen and 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:38.160 twenty twenty. Here he is in a twenty twenty interview 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:44.480 with the Associated Press. We do have really an unofficial moratorium. 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:46.800 You know, there's not going to be an execution in 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:50.320 their state unless the state legislature changes the law. They 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:52.080 would have to come up with a different way of 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:57.240 execution other than lethal injection. Lethal injection is the only 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:03.640 way prescribed under the current law, and lethal injection appears 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:07.000 to us to be impossible from a practical point of 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.920 view today. But looking for a different method in which 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:14.880 to kill people is very different than opposing it altogether. 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:20.479 Justification for capital punishment is that it saves lives, It 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:24.440 serves as a deterrent, and that would be the moral justification. 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:30.360 So although Ohio today still has an unofficial moratorium on executions, 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:34.040 Keith and his supporters are preparing themselves for the worst, 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.200 believing the state might jump start them in time to 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.000 put to death. Keith, one of the first of the 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:45.840 notorious Lucasville five. When it comes to Ohio legislators, many 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:48.479 aren't spending their time looking for a new protocol in 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:51.919 which to execute people. They're hard at work trying to 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:55.640 put an end to capital punishment for once and for all. 0:05:57.320 --> 0:05:59.960 There's a lot of reasons for people to be against 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:04.640 the death penalty. That's State Senator Nicki Antonio, whom I 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.680 speak with over zoom. She says finding a better way 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:11.520 in which to kill people isn't good enough. A Democrat 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:15.279 who is currently the minority leader, Antonio has been working 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.800 to abolish the death penalty since she first took office 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:22.720 as a state representative back in twenty eleven. Back then, 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:27.520 there were three issues closest to her heart. One of 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:31.640 them was, as a former teacher and a special ed teacher, 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:36.720 I really wanted to affect public policy, and at the time, 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:40.080 it was the way we fund public schools. Our funding 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:44.559 had been found to be unconstitutional, and so I really 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.160 wanted to go to Columbus and make a difference in 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:52.240 that arena. One was fairness for the LGBTQ community. I'm 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:54.720 the first person to ever get elected in the state 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:59.120 of Ohio to the legislature from the LGBTQ community, So 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.640 it goes without saying that. I thought myself, my family, 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:07.080 and my people should also be considered equal in the 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.800 state of Ohio. The third thing was ending the death 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:14.480 penalty in the state of Ohio, and over time her 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:19.280 fight to abolish the death penalty has gained some unlikely support. 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:23.040 I am not a liberal by any shot of the imagination. 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:25.600 If you look at my bio, I'm as red as 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:30.280 red can be. I'm a very conservative person. That's Republican 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:34.680 State Representative Jean Schmidt. I speak with her over zoom too. 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:39.040 Representative Schmidt began her political career as a state representative 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:42.800 in two thousand and one, then spent seven plus years 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:46.480 in the US House of Representatives, and is now back 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:50.880 serving her second term in the Ohio House of Representatives. 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:55.560 Her position on capital punishment has gone from one end 0:07:55.600 --> 0:08:01.320 of the spectrum to the absolute other. I went to 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:05.239 the state legislature, fought to keep the death penalty, went 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:11.080 to Congress, and still starting to evolve into questioning the 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:15.240 death penalty. It's when I left Congress met sister Helen Prejean. 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:17.400 I read that book Dead Man Walking. I'm going to 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:22.080 go hear her, and she talked about it from God's position. 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:24.960 These are people just like you and I are people, 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:29.560 and God creates everyone to love Him, to know love 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.920 and serve him. And whilst some of us continue to 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.120 try to do that every day, others get off the 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:39.040 beaten path. But that doesn't mean there are any less 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:42.120 of a child of God. And we are pro life 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:46.439 at the beginning through fertilization, and we say natural death. 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:51.160 Killing somebody by artificial means no matter what the reason 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:56.720 is wrong, and that's what really unsettled me. And meeting 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:01.080 Joe Dambroggio was another one, and his story is so powerful. 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:04.280 It's like a John Brisham novel. He's in prison for 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:07.319 twenty five years, he's on death row and he was 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:09.960 exonerated and I happened to be there when he got 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:12.800 out and he was talking about it, and it had 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:16.080 a profound impact. And when some of my friends and 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:19.239 my cousin thought I should go back into the state legislature, 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:22.800 I prayed about it and said, Okay, God, if you 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.080 want me to do this, I said, but I promise 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:27.720 you I will work hard to end the death penalty, 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.320 and I will work hard to end abortion and I 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:34.600 have been true to that promise. While it's an understatement 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:38.880 to say that Representative Schmidt and Senator Antonio are on 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:43.199 opposite sides of the abortion debate, they are aligned when 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:45.440 it comes to doing a way with the death penalty. 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.880 Here's Senator Antonio again, there are certain things that we 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:53.920 should not be legislating. Certainly around the issue of choice, 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.920 that's one of them. But around the issue of whether 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:02.880 or not to execute someone, I believe the legislature should 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:07.079 intervene and say none of us should make that decision. 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.920 And she says there are many reasons why, because it's 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.840 the right thing to do in terms of human beings, 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:19.280 not taking a life that states sanction. There's religious practice, 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:24.119 there's the inequities of the death penalty, and in Ohio, 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:29.680 the margins couldn't be clearer about the inequities with how 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:34.200 the death penalty is dispensed. There's a former Chief Justice 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:38.240 in Ohio who was responsible for bringing the death penalty 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:43.560 back and then years later actually came and testified for 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.320 my bill to end the use of the death penalty 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:53.680 because he said, this bill, this law has become a lottery, 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:58.600 a death lottery for people of color. He called it out. 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:03.680 He knew that it was the way it was put 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:09.520 into practice was unfair, and the only way he saw 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:13.959 to make anything fair was to take it away. I mean, 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:18.240 that's pretty sobering. So there's many reasons. Then there's the 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:22.079 reason of recidivism. Does it prevent anyone from committing murder 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:24.959 because they think they're going to get the death penalty? 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:28.520 And nobody's been able to prove that that it's a deterrent. 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:33.199 It's not a deterrent. And finally, one of the biggest reasons, 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:37.200 some of the most compelling information we have is that 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:41.160 we don't always get it right. Even with DNA information, 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:45.439 even with all of the science behind everything, we have 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:49.720 gotten it wrong. And over the years we have a 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:52.400 number of people that have been exonerated in the state 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:55.760 of Ohio. Y'aller takes this one person. If there's one 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:59.320 exonery that comes in front of us because we got 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:02.480 it wrong, that should tell us that we can never 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:07.920 be sure that we get it right. Here's Representative Jean Schmidt. Again, 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:12.840 look at the Tony Uponovich story. This guy didn't even 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:17.040 do the crime. Anthony Aponovich was convicted and sentenced to 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:20.200 death for the nineteen eighty four rape and murder of 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:25.520 Marianne Flynn in Cleveland. After spending about twenty years on 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:32.079 death row, they discover that the prosecution withheld DNA. They 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:34.559 get it tested, it proves he didn't do it. If 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.040 he didn't raper, then you didn't kill her. When he 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:42.360 was let go, it was with prejudice. The prosecutor realized 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:45.280 that they didn't do a proper format on the DNA. 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.120 So he's back on death row and they can never 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.559 use that DNA again because it's no longer new evidence. 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:55.719 That Anthony Aponovitch story is crazy, right, I mean, if 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.920 I understand correctly, it came down to a technicality that 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:01.920 he didn't ask the DNA to be tested. He was 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.920 out for almost three years, right, and then they picked 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:07.400 him up and took him back to prison based on 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.280 that technicality because he didn't know to ask to have 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:15.240 that DNA tested, Which is just it's mind blowing. That's 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:17.600 something like that could happen and he could be executed. 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.360 When I met sister Helen Preischon, she talked about a 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.320 case in Louisiana who they had the evidence to prove 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.719 the guiddn't do it. They were two minutes late at 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:31.679 the federal court to deliver it he was executing. This 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:35.720 is crazy to kill on a technicality when they're innocent, 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:39.640 and yet we have the opportunity to do it in Ohio. 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:44.120 I do have a bill to correct the DNA issue, 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:48.800 but while I'm asking for it to be retroactive, the 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:53.040 prosecutors will most likely object, and so it will be 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:57.280 a moving forward bill, so it won't answer his problem, 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:03.280 it'll address future problems. And that's just crazy. And the 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:08.800 man didn't do it. He didn't rape her, so he 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:12.280 didn't kill her. I have visited him and he said, 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:15.280 you know, the saddest he said, the most tortuous thing 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:19.760 for him is having freedom for almost three years, being 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:23.520 able to smell the air that you and I smell. 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:27.760 He married a woman that was his age. She had 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.200 grandchildren she was raising. He finally got to have kids 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:34.480 that he could help raise. He had the life he's 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:39.760 wanted and deserved, and we took it away on a technicality. 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:44.960 But now, almost four decades later, Anthony Apanovich still sits 0:14:45.080 --> 0:15:02.320 on death row. To bec clear, you want to abolish 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.600 the death penalty, not just for the innocence, but for 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.040 the guilty as well. It doesn't matter if you're guilty 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.160 or innocence. There should not be a death penalty in 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.240 Ohio anymore. No. Now, it doesn't end the torture for 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:18.520 the victims. It costs more money, cost more money to house, 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:21.480 It costs more money to prosecute, cost more money to 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:25.640 kill him. I continue my conversation with Ohio State Representative 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:29.440 Jean Schmidt. My county, Claremont County, we don't do the 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.600 death penalty because of the cost involved of bringing it 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:35.640 to trial. It can bankrupt to county. If you're a 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.560 wealthy county like Hamilton County or Cuyahoga County, how you 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.320 can afford that expense, But when you're a Claremont County 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:47.080 you can't. According to the Dayton Daily News, death penalty 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:51.400 cases in Ohio cost on average three million dollars, compared 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:55.400 to one million for people's sentenced to life without parole. 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.400 And by the way, according to a twenty eighteen Cincinnati 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:04.800 Inquirer article, Hamilton County, where Keith Lamar's prosecutors are from, 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:08.720 has had more death penalty cases and has executed more 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:13.040 people than in all of Ohio's eighty eight counties since 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:17.040 nineteen eighty one. In fact, according to that same article, 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.680 in twenty eighteen, Hamilton County had more people on death 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:24.600 row per capita than other major cities like Los Angeles, 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:30.120 San Diego, and Miami. The reason why is not clear cut, 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.280 but one reason might be that Hamilton County has been 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:38.160 a conservative county that elects conservative prosecutors who have a 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:44.520 tough on crime mentality. I wonder who does Senator nicki 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:49.160 Antonio say she gets the most resistance from and why. 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.920 You know, it's interesting because many prosecutors have come out 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:58.040 and actually told me they are now recently supportive of 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:02.000 ending the death penalty because they see the traps that 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:05.919 are created, and that many of them have told me 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:08.800 they believe things would be a lot more clear cut 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.480 if we didn't have it anymore. Not all the prosecutors 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:16.280 are there, So that's one that's one issue that they 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:19.560 lose some kind of leverage or some kind of negotiation 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.520 tool if you're going to negotiate with the death penalty, 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:26.760 just as easily negotiate with life without parole, which is 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:33.160 a horrible, horrible sentence. Frankly, I've visited many of the prisons. 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.560 I've visited the high security ones. That is not a 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:38.919 place I would want to live my life out my 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:43.000 years out for sure. Some folks in law enforcement believe 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:47.600 that there should always be an exemption for someone who 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:53.399 commits murder against a law A person in law enforcement 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:57.040 and believes that that should be the exception, So there's 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:02.359 some pushback there. The final place I think where there's pushback, 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:07.040 whether real or perceived, is that folks make this and 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:11.200 I think it's a false notion to equate being tough 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:15.800 on crime with being pro death penalty. I believe you 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:21.199 can be very tough on crime and still want to 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.680 abolish the use of the death penalty. I think those 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:28.280 things are not mutually exclusive at all. One of the 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:33.760 biggest misnomers I think that sometimes people think that this 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.640 is about protecting the families of victims, or that victims 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:44.119 families want us to execute perpetrators. And what I've heard 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:48.560 from families that's really stunned me was to the contrary 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:53.080 that they actually would like the death penalty ended, because 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:57.920 every time there's an appeal, every time there's a new 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:04.119 court case, the family has to relive this terrible tragic 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:07.040 thing that happened to their family and their loved one, 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:11.280 and frankly, they've said they would like an end to this. 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:15.359 They want closure. Put that person behind bars, keep them there, 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:19.320 let them wake up every day and think about what 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:23.600 they did to put themselves there. And there are some 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:29.280 people who have talked to me, victims families, who have said, 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:34.119 but I also want that person to have an opportunity 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:38.640 for redemption, which when you think about, I don't know 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:42.800 that I could be that person that's really powerful. So 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:47.000 on some days when this is really really hard, that 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:53.879 motivates me to keep going. According to Gallup's twenty twenty 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:57.920 two annual poll on Values and Beliefs, fifty five percent 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:01.560 of Americans who participated in this survey said they believe 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:07.919 the death penalty is morally acceptable. Before interviewing Senator Antonio 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:10.960 and Representative Schmidt, I told them that our focus this 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:15.080 season is on the Lucasville uprising Keith Lamar and how 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:17.160 he is the first of the five men on death 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:22.080 row to be given an execution date. Here's Representative Jeane Schmidt. 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:27.600 Lucasville at the time was an awful place, and prisoners 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:33.640 do have some rights and they were being neglected. So 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:37.920 this riot occurred and it was a very touchy situation. 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.080 I remember reading it in the Enquirer and my family 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:44.080 discussing it at the kitchen table. I don't know whether 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:49.239 he's innocent or guilty, but I have enough suspicions that 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:51.919 if I was on the jury, I would never allow 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:54.560 for the death penalty to occur. I think this state 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:57.239 had too much motive to get it. I think that 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:01.160 the state wanted to find a person. He had already 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:03.960 killed somebody in his life, so what did it matter? 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:08.159 People said he did it, so let's pinot on him. 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:10.040 I think that was too easy of a mote of 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:12.800 it for it. And yeah, it does bother me if 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:16.480 Grady material was withheld from him. Look, I'm not anti prosecutors, 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:18.720 believe me, but I have a problem with the way 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:23.240 evidence is presented that the prosecutor can determine what evidence 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:26.320 the other side gets. I have a real problem with that. 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:30.080 If there's evidence, for God's sake, show it period. Let's 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:33.919 get a clear picture of what happened. Don't mess around 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:36.000 with it. I don't care whether it's a death penalty 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:40.600 case or an armed robbery. Show all the evidence, and 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:45.360 you know you can't just have the snitch. You got 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:48.440 to have something else besides the snitch and we're not 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:54.159 doing that. Yeah, And all of the rulings since have 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:59.679 said basically, whatever new evidence has been presented would not 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:03.440 have changed the original verdict. It would not have changed 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:05.600 the minds of the jurors. But how do we know. 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:08.840 By the way, there's no physical evidence tying any of 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:11.440 the five men who are on death row to any 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:17.600 of the crimes. But everything came down to snitch testimony, 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:21.480 and like every single person who testified against Keith got 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:25.280 some sort of deal, shortened players and sentenced better sell 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:34.639 depending upon how you perform, you get a better work detail, etc. So, yeah, 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:41.840 that's why I'm concerned with snitch testimony. In twenty eleven, 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:46.280 the Ohio Supreme Court, in conjunction with the Ohio Bar Association, 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:50.639 asked for a joint task force to review the administration 0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:54.760 of Ohio's death penalty. In twenty fourteen, the task force, 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:58.880 made up of twenty three members, which included prosecutors, judges, 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:04.439 defense attorneys, law enforcement legislators, and law professors, submitted their 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:09.960 report and recommendations. Of the fifty six recommendations, numbers seventeen 0:23:10.200 --> 0:23:16.080 and eighteen are of particular interest. Number seventeen recommends making 0:23:16.080 --> 0:23:18.919 a law that a death sentence cannot be considered or 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:23.359 imposed unless the state has either biological evidence or DNA 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:26.439 evidence that links the defendant to the act of murder, 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:31.800 a videotaped voluntary interrogation and confession of the defendant to 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:36.199 the murder, or a video recording that conclusively links the 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:40.760 defendant to the murder. Number eighteen recommends they not permit 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:44.520 a death sentence where the state relies on jailhouse informant 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:49.400 testimony that is not independently corroborated at the guilt innocence 0:23:49.400 --> 0:23:54.120 phase of the death penalty trial. These two recommendations were 0:23:54.440 --> 0:23:59.920 never adopted by the Ohio legislature. Here's Senator Nicki Antonio. 0:24:00.680 --> 0:24:04.000 I was asked to serve on that commission at some point, 0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:10.080 and I respectfully declined because I was told from the 0:24:10.119 --> 0:24:13.600 beginning that what was not on the table was an 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:15.679 end to the death penalty. And I said, well, if 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:19.240 that's not on the table, I appreciate all of the 0:24:19.280 --> 0:24:23.000 other work that's being done, but as long as that's there, 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:27.640 that's the key element to me of where there are 0:24:27.680 --> 0:24:32.640 inequities and where there are problems with this system. By 0:24:32.680 --> 0:24:35.280 the way back in two thousand and five, the American 0:24:35.280 --> 0:24:40.160 Bar Association recommended that in death penalty cases, no prosecution 0:24:40.240 --> 0:24:46.239 should occur based solely an uncorroborated jailhouse informant testimony, and 0:24:46.320 --> 0:24:50.480 that quote, no person should lose liberty or life based 0:24:50.600 --> 0:25:07.120 solely on the testimony of such a witness. I continue 0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:10.960 my conversation with state Representative Jean Schmidt about why there 0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:16.000 is an unofficial temporary hold on executions in Ohio. You know, 0:25:16.160 --> 0:25:18.359 we can't get the drug that was out there for 0:25:18.440 --> 0:25:22.119 many years because the pharmaceutical company will not give it 0:25:22.160 --> 0:25:25.200 to us to kill people. So a few years ago, 0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:29.080 a law was passed to allow compounding pharmacies and doctors 0:25:29.240 --> 0:25:33.240 to be anonymous and get immunity so that they can't 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:36.719 get prosecuted. The doctor to write the script, and the 0:25:36.720 --> 0:25:40.359 compounding pharmacy to create the product. Well, they did that 0:25:40.560 --> 0:25:43.440 and it didn't work out so well. It violated the 0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:47.560 Eighth Amendment. So we don't have a drug out there. Now. 0:25:47.920 --> 0:25:51.679 Technically you could shoot them or hang them, but I 0:25:51.760 --> 0:25:55.359 have a strange feeling the people of Ohio aren't gonna 0:25:55.400 --> 0:25:58.560 like either, even those advocates of death row. That's a 0:25:58.720 --> 0:26:04.400 very ruesome way to end somebody's life, and I all 0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:07.879 think so think it as racial overtones because when you 0:26:07.920 --> 0:26:11.720 think of what the slaves had to go through, it 0:26:11.800 --> 0:26:14.840 was either hanging or shooting. So when you have a 0:26:14.920 --> 0:26:19.200 larger population of people of color, people of color whose 0:26:19.240 --> 0:26:22.360 ancestors may or may not have been of slaves, that 0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:27.359 brings up a whole racial undertone that I don't think 0:26:27.480 --> 0:26:31.080 is acceptable to the public. So the governor said fix it, Well, 0:26:31.080 --> 0:26:33.919 there is no fix except to end it. Would you 0:26:33.960 --> 0:26:37.400 agree that it's hypocritical for a state to take someone's 0:26:37.440 --> 0:26:40.680 life when they say you're not allowed to take someone's life, Yeah, 0:26:40.680 --> 0:26:43.840 it is. It is hypocritical, but it's more more immoral 0:26:44.400 --> 0:26:47.800 to do that. Do we have the right to take 0:26:47.840 --> 0:26:50.359 a life? Do we have a right to take a 0:26:50.400 --> 0:26:53.720 life at conception? Do we have a right to take 0:26:53.760 --> 0:26:57.560 a life at natural death? Over the years, there have 0:26:57.720 --> 0:27:01.480 been some small legislative victories in the fight towards ending 0:27:01.480 --> 0:27:04.920 the death penalty in Ohio, like banning it for defendants 0:27:04.920 --> 0:27:08.000 who are severely mentally ill at the time of the offense. 0:27:08.560 --> 0:27:12.320 But where does things stand today? Here's Senator Nicky Antonio. 0:27:13.359 --> 0:27:17.120 We had a lot of momentum earlier last year where 0:27:17.119 --> 0:27:22.960 we really thought we were moving towards really ending in 0:27:23.000 --> 0:27:26.679 the death penalty. That there are two bills. There's a 0:27:26.680 --> 0:27:28.719 bill in the House and a bill in the Senate. 0:27:29.400 --> 0:27:33.639 This time, for the very first time, we have joint 0:27:33.680 --> 0:27:37.159 sponsors on both bills. That's significant because when you have 0:27:37.320 --> 0:27:41.879 the lead sponsors as a Republican and a Democrat working 0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:45.840 in tandem in the state of Ohio, that means a lot. 0:27:46.359 --> 0:27:49.199 And so we have that in both the House and 0:27:49.320 --> 0:27:55.359 the Senate. But here's the kicker. If the bill is 0:27:55.440 --> 0:27:59.400 one day past, it would not be retroactive. It would 0:27:59.520 --> 0:28:04.399 only effect future cases, so Keith and all the others 0:28:04.440 --> 0:28:08.200