WEBVTT - The Plan to Rein in Tech Monopolies

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and

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<v Speaker 1>Tim Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio. Well, Carol, I'm reading a

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<v Speaker 1>book right now. Actually, Jason Kelly, your former co anchor

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<v Speaker 1>here on Bloomberg Business So he recommended it to me.

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<v Speaker 1>He recommended it to me a couple of years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a little behind. I bought it that I'm getting

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<v Speaker 1>around for reading it. It's called The Avery. It's by

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<v Speaker 1>Dave Aggers. It takes place in a not so distant

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<v Speaker 1>dystopian future where one single, huge tech company pretty much

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<v Speaker 1>controls everything from social media to e commerce to search.

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<v Speaker 2>Wait aren't we there? Oh no, sorry, Well.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a good question. Here's the thing. Almost everyone lives

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<v Speaker 1>under constant surveillance, their cameras everywhere, people broadcast their entire lives.

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<v Speaker 1>Everybody's on their best behavior lest they be caught on

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<v Speaker 1>camera saying the wrong thing or not recycling. Oh my

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<v Speaker 1>what Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>All right, So, given we're technologies today, it's actually not

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<v Speaker 2>that hard of a future to imagine, and perhaps our

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<v Speaker 2>next guest is trying to prevent the world from emerging

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<v Speaker 2>that specific world. So we've got with us Tim Tom Keppy.

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<v Speaker 1>He's the author a new book containing Big Tech How

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<v Speaker 1>to Protect our civil rights, economy, and democracy. He's also

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<v Speaker 1>co founder of the cybersecurity firm Centrify. It's now called Delinea.

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<v Speaker 1>It was bought by Toma Bravo back in twenty nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>and later by TPG. He's volunteered on the Biden Harris

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<v Speaker 1>Tech Policy Team. He did that in twenty twenty. He

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<v Speaker 1>worked with advocacy groups for years on legislation around consumer

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<v Speaker 1>privacy and data protection. He joins us on Zoom from

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<v Speaker 1>Menlo Park, California. Tom, good to have you with us.

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<v Speaker 1>How are you.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm doing great, Thanks for having me on.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, thanks so much for joining us. So we have

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<v Speaker 1>some a bit of time this afternoon, and we have

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<v Speaker 1>a lot to get to. But I want to know

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<v Speaker 1>at the specific moment that you realized that you thought

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<v Speaker 1>that big tech needed to be contained.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, my last company was Centrify, and it's cybersecurity, and

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<v Speaker 3>we saw all these hacks coming in and it really

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<v Speaker 3>became clear that when a couple of these companies got breached,

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<v Speaker 3>just the incredible amounts of data that was being accessed

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<v Speaker 3>by the bad guys. It really got me to appreciate

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<v Speaker 3>that We're now in a situation where especially little, larger

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<v Speaker 3>tech companies are really just over collecting so much information

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<v Speaker 3>about us. And you know, in the past, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>companies like Standard Oil were powerful, but they didn't know

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<v Speaker 3>everything about us, and that's that was the Really when

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<v Speaker 3>seeing the hacks and seeing all this data slashing around

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<v Speaker 3>really made me say, uh uh, something's going on here.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, Tom, I'm going to put it out there.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going for a headline here. But is it like

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<v Speaker 2>climate change or maybe like climate change, that we might

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<v Speaker 2>just be too late, that this train has definitely left

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<v Speaker 2>the station.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, I think we actually, because it's bits and

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<v Speaker 3>bytes versus the sky and clouds and the earth rotating

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<v Speaker 3>and trees and all that stuff, I think we can

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<v Speaker 3>actually control it. I mean, the fundamental issue is in

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<v Speaker 3>the US, we don't have a federal privacy law. Right.

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<v Speaker 3>We don't have rights over our data, the right to

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<v Speaker 3>know what's being collected about us, the right to say

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<v Speaker 3>no and say please don't sell or share my data,

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<v Speaker 3>or the right to correct or right to delete. So

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<v Speaker 3>I do think that we could really make some significant

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<v Speaker 3>strides and be able to govern our information. And if

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<v Speaker 3>we don't Frankly, it is going to get worse with

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<v Speaker 3>AI because then all of a sudden, our data, and

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of it's our personal data, kind of becomes

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<v Speaker 3>part of this big blender of AI utilizing our data

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<v Speaker 3>to create other things as well. And we worry about copyrights, right,

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<v Speaker 3>what about our data? Well?

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<v Speaker 2>What about do we follow the lead of what's going

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<v Speaker 2>on in Europe? And I think about the GDPR, right,

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<v Speaker 2>the General Data Protection Regulation that's out there that really

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<v Speaker 2>does push for privacy protections and security of personal data.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that what we need here in the United States specifically?

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<v Speaker 2>Is that what you're kind of pushing for.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, actually we've done it here in California. So I

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<v Speaker 3>mean you're referring to Europe's privacy law and people call

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<v Speaker 3>it the Brussels effect, but California, we've historically had the

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<v Speaker 3>California effect. It first started with auto emissions and consumer

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<v Speaker 3>protection around car safety, et cetera. And then California in

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<v Speaker 3>nineteen seventy two actually put privacy as an inalienable right

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<v Speaker 3>into our constitution, and from a privacy and cybersecurity perspective,

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<v Speaker 3>we were the first state to actually pass a data

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<v Speaker 3>breach notification law, right and we are and have been

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<v Speaker 3>the first state with the most comprehensive privacy law. So

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<v Speaker 3>I think California actually has a better model where it's

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<v Speaker 3>able to balance innovation with the tech players, but also

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<v Speaker 3>give consumers some basic rights over their data and how

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<v Speaker 3>it's used.

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<v Speaker 1>Tom, you're also a seed investor in many startups right now.

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<v Speaker 1>They include companies with names like Sakouvi, Privacy Code, Trusted,

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<v Speaker 1>twin Ivy Technology, share Id, Sunday Security, Surf Security, Holistic AI.

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<v Speaker 1>The list goes on the cynic and perhaps somebody would say, well,

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<v Speaker 1>wait a second, this guy's has this agenda because he's

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<v Speaker 1>invested in a lot of companies that want to take

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<v Speaker 1>on the big guys. He's invested in a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>companies that would benefit from company from having stricter data

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<v Speaker 1>protection laws here in the US. What would you say

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<v Speaker 1>to that.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I'm back, Maybe this is a bad analogy, but

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<v Speaker 3>al Gore, you mentioned climate change. You know, he was

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<v Speaker 3>talking about climate change for years and then you know,

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<v Speaker 3>he was having difficulties trying to get things passed from

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<v Speaker 3>a policy perspective, but so he wanted to have change done.

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<v Speaker 3>So he started joining boards and he's on the board

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<v Speaker 3>of Apple, but he's also involved in climate funds. So

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<v Speaker 3>everything that I've been talking about as it relates to

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<v Speaker 3>privacy in the book is things that are written years ago,

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<v Speaker 3>well before or I actually started doing any investing, and

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<v Speaker 3>so I'm trying to put my time and effort into

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<v Speaker 3>making changes. And what I'm doing with my investments is

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<v Speaker 3>actually trying to empower consumers to better secure them and

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<v Speaker 3>protect themselves. So my investments tend to be more consumer

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<v Speaker 3>centric and trying to help stop identity theft or help

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<v Speaker 3>people get better control over their privacy as well. But

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<v Speaker 3>I've been completely consistent. I have a blog that's been

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<v Speaker 3>out there for years. I've talked about these things. I

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<v Speaker 3>was a full time volunteer on Proposition twenty four in California,

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<v Speaker 3>and it wasn't only to just relatively recently that I've

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<v Speaker 3>been complimenting and supplementing this, but I've been completely consistent

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<v Speaker 3>in my advocacy of better cybersecurity, better privacy for you,

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<v Speaker 3>me and other people as well. And so yeah, that's

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, people can say that, you know, but the

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<v Speaker 3>record shows that I've consistently been talking about this and

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<v Speaker 3>proposing this for years.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, and on what you said, if we go along

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<v Speaker 2>with what you kind of said in akin to what

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<v Speaker 2>we saw with al Gore, he was right in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of the concerns about climate change, and so if we

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<v Speaker 2>had all paid a lot more attention, maybe we wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>be kind of in the world we are today. If

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<v Speaker 2>you are right about your concerns and we ignore them.

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<v Speaker 2>In terms of cybersecurity, where could that what's the dark scenario,

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<v Speaker 2>the dystopian scenario of all of this data accumulate, accumulation

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<v Speaker 2>on all of us in the hands of a few

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<v Speaker 2>big tech companies.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, you know, look, historically the large tech companies their

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<v Speaker 3>business models was advertising. And for us, we made that

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<v Speaker 3>trade off to say, Okay, I'm gonna give you all

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<v Speaker 3>this data and you're gonna give me these free services.

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<v Speaker 3>And then what happened was that, you know, we started

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<v Speaker 3>shopping for a red dress or red basketball shoes, and

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<v Speaker 3>then all of a sudden, for the next seven weeks,

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<v Speaker 3>every web page had that red dress or those red

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<v Speaker 3>basket all shoes.

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<v Speaker 2>It was creepy tory being a journalist and like researching

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<v Speaker 2>a company that we're gonna have on a guest that

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<v Speaker 2>does something like men's underwear, and then we're getting it.

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<v Speaker 2>Sorry anyway, go ahead.

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<v Speaker 3>That is it's creepy. I'm doing work.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm doing work seriously, seriously anyway.

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<v Speaker 3>But the problem is is that we are now in

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<v Speaker 3>a post abortion rights America where stuff that we did

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<v Speaker 3>before is actually illegal in some states. Or there's data

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<v Speaker 3>like you know, there's all these issues about trans and

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<v Speaker 3>so the information and that type of data is now

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<v Speaker 3>actually can be used against people because before it was

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<v Speaker 3>offered to advertisers, but it could be offered to people

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<v Speaker 3>to harass or discriminate against people as well. And so

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<v Speaker 3>but even if you just step even further back, I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>the reality is is that this data is being collected

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<v Speaker 3>about us as adults. And yeah, maybe we can navigate

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<v Speaker 3>around some of the rabbit holes or not, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>disregard these ads, But what about our kids. There's no

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<v Speaker 3>differentiation if our kids are on the keyboard versus us

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<v Speaker 3>on the keyboard, and I think that's fundamentally unhealthy. So yes,

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<v Speaker 3>I think that the actors have figured out how to

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<v Speaker 3>start weaponizing this data that historically has been used for advertising.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to get back to our guest, Tom Camp.

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<v Speaker 2>He has a new book out already available containing big

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<v Speaker 2>tech how to protect our civil rights, economy, and democracy.

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<v Speaker 2>He's co founder of the cybersecurity company Centrify, former CEO

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<v Speaker 2>of that company. He was also, i should point out,

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<v Speaker 2>a volunteer on the Biden Harris Tech Policy Team back

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<v Speaker 2>in twenty twenty and has worked with advocacy groups on

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<v Speaker 2>legislation around consumer privacy and data protection. He's still with

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<v Speaker 2>us on Zoom from Menlo Park, California.

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<v Speaker 1>You've got to scroll a lot when LinkedIn, I'll tell

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<v Speaker 1>you that story.

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<v Speaker 2>We've run out of time. We can't.

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<v Speaker 1>Sorry, Tom, we're TK haven't met any of your investments yet,

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<v Speaker 1>and he's a man qualified to write a.

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<v Speaker 3>Book like this.

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<v Speaker 2>So Tom, AI Artificial intelligence generative AI. We're talking about

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<v Speaker 2>next level generation AI, something we've all been obsessed at about.

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<v Speaker 2>Has that sped up the need to do something soon

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<v Speaker 2>or so? In other words, is that a catalyst for

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<v Speaker 2>concern when it comes to cybersecurity and data information and

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<v Speaker 2>our privacy issues?

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely? Yes. It's funny because there are so many people

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<v Speaker 3>running around Silicon Valley with business plans to do more

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<v Speaker 3>for cybersecurity as it relates to AI and so, and

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<v Speaker 3>also as it relates to privacy. I mean there's a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of concerns that companies will you know, employees within

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<v Speaker 3>companies will take their sales data and say, well, what

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<v Speaker 3>does chat GPT have to say with it? And all

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<v Speaker 3>of a sudden they upload the data to get some

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<v Speaker 3>nice graphs, reports, some analysis, and low and behold. Now

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<v Speaker 3>open AI has your entire sales pipeline. Right, same thing

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<v Speaker 3>with customer information, right companies right. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Companies have warned their employees like, don't do that, because

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<v Speaker 2>you're sharing.

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<v Speaker 3>Information exactly, And so I think that, and then of

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<v Speaker 3>course there's not only the input, but there's also the

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<v Speaker 3>output of information. And are you going to be liable

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<v Speaker 3>if you generate if there's content generated, and then it's

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<v Speaker 3>based on copyright, but you're putting that as a business,

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<v Speaker 3>you're putting that out on your own. I do have

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<v Speaker 3>a funny story. So a family friend of ours has

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<v Speaker 3>a daughter. She was told to write an essay in

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<v Speaker 3>high school. This's just passed in the spring, and she

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<v Speaker 3>wrote a great essay about what's the best way to

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<v Speaker 3>get into college? And she said, Hey, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 3>move to Montana. I'm going to take the bassoon up.

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<v Speaker 3>It was a funny essay. The teacher said, you used

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<v Speaker 3>chat GBT to write it and so and how could

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<v Speaker 3>she actually like and she didn't. But it was like

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<v Speaker 3>that big debate, like is was this machine generated or

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<v Speaker 3>human generated? I think that issue is going to come

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<v Speaker 3>up a lot with business.

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<v Speaker 1>That's really interesting. And look, we're just at the beginning

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<v Speaker 1>of this, Carol, as we've talked about a lot. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>so when we think about Tom, how this is, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>really in our lives each and every day. The book

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<v Speaker 1>focuses on Meta, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, and Google, what they're

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<v Speaker 1>doing individually, but also what they're doing as a group.

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<v Speaker 1>If you were to pick one company in there that

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<v Speaker 1>you are most concerned about, which one is it.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a close tie between Meta and Google. It's just

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<v Speaker 3>because of the vast amounts of information that they collect

0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:38.040
<v Speaker 3>on each and every one of us. And so Google,

0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:42.920
<v Speaker 3>I did various experiments, and Google was collecting information about

0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.959
<v Speaker 3>me on average every five minutes, and so it had

0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:48.680
<v Speaker 3>a complete dossier in terms of where I was going,

0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.400
<v Speaker 3>what I was searching. I have an Android phone. It

0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.959
<v Speaker 3>knew exactly what apps I was accessing, It knew the notifications,

0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.520
<v Speaker 3>et cetera. And you know, Google had actually made some

0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:04.720
<v Speaker 3>promises after Roe v. Wade was repealed, and they said,

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<v Speaker 3>you know what, We're going to discard any reproductive rights

0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:13.320
<v Speaker 3>related information about searches for abortion or visits, mapping information

0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:17.000
<v Speaker 3>about visits to abortion clinics, planned parenthoods et cetera. And

0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.400
<v Speaker 3>so I put that to the test last fall as

0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.120
<v Speaker 3>I was researching this book. Turns out it wasn't the

0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:25.920
<v Speaker 3>case that they were still collecting this information, and that

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<v Speaker 3>led to an article that appeared in the Guardian and

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<v Speaker 3>then a couple of months ago, Jeffrey Fowler the Washington

0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:35.200
<v Speaker 3>Post also saw the same thing as well. So you know,

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<v Speaker 3>when when healthcare related things become you know, illegal, and

0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.720
<v Speaker 3>the data is being collected, it just raises serious concerns

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<v Speaker 3>and issues about how this data could be used potentially

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<v Speaker 3>against people. And of course we know the expression digital redlining,

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<v Speaker 3>and with algorithms and now becoming AI, you know, how

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<v Speaker 3>much control do we do? We have to say, wait

0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:01.000
<v Speaker 3>a minute, that that out put was incorrect.

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<v Speaker 2>So you note and how we started technology a gift

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<v Speaker 2>and a curse. Can we get to a point where

0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.960
<v Speaker 2>it's no longer a curse? Can it be managed in

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<v Speaker 2>a way where we still benefit by the amount of

0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.280
<v Speaker 2>data that so many companies have that kind of makes

0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:22.760
<v Speaker 2>some processes much easier for all of us. Like what's

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<v Speaker 2>the balance here?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean it's funny because like if you have

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<v Speaker 3>kids and you have a car, you probably would put

0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:33.760
<v Speaker 3>them in a car seat, right and you would put

0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:35.640
<v Speaker 3>them in the back of the car. But that wasn't

0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:38.560
<v Speaker 3>there before. So we put we put some guardrails. And

0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:44.680
<v Speaker 3>so I'm not proposing that our technology environment ecosystem becomes

0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:48.800
<v Speaker 3>like airline safety, but it should be like car safety

0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:53.440
<v Speaker 3>that we have air bags, that we have speed limits,

0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.040
<v Speaker 3>you know, things of that nature as well. And there's

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<v Speaker 3>two core fundamental facts. Fact number one is that there

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<v Speaker 3>is no oversight or regulation in terms of the data

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<v Speaker 3>being collected and how it's going to be used, with

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<v Speaker 3>the exception in specific sectors based on laws such as

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<v Speaker 3>Hip and Graham Leach Blily that were passed in the

0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:17.680
<v Speaker 3>nineties pre iPhone, pre Meta, pre Google. The second issue

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<v Speaker 3>is is that a lot of the problems that we

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<v Speaker 3>have are exasperated because we have now this consolidation into

0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:30.240
<v Speaker 3>large monopolies, and we haven't had a significant anti trust

0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:38.320
<v Speaker 3>lawsuit since Microsoft was told not to bundle Internet Explorer,

0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:40.760
<v Speaker 3>and that opened up the door for Google and everyone

0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:44.160
<v Speaker 3>else as well. So these companies over the last twenty

0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:48.440
<v Speaker 3>years have done thousands of acquisitions and it's been green lighted,

0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.000
<v Speaker 3>green lighted, et cetera. And so I think we need

0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:55.720
<v Speaker 3>a proper balance of some antitrust sprinkled in with some

0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:59.040
<v Speaker 3>privacy laws as well. And I think that will provide

0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:02.880
<v Speaker 3>the proper cars safety as opposed to airline safety, that

0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:06.520
<v Speaker 3>there can be incredible innovation that can continue because look,

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<v Speaker 3>when AT and T was broken up, the telecommunications revolution happened.

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<v Speaker 2>No, it's a really good point, very thoughtful. Hey, Tom

0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:17.000
<v Speaker 2>really enjoyed this. Comeback soon. Tom Camp author of a book,

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<v Speaker 2>new book it's out though, containing big tech how to

0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.600
<v Speaker 2>protect our civil rights, economy and democracy. As we mentioned earlier,

0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:26.240
<v Speaker 2>co founder and former CEO of the cybersecurity company Centrified,

0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:29.080
<v Speaker 2>joining us there from Menlo Park, California.

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<v Speaker 1>The cover of this book hearkens back to those old

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<v Speaker 1>Monopoly posters with big octopuses tentacles.

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<v Speaker 2>The artwork means something. Yeah, in a big way, this

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<v Speaker 2>is Bloomberg