1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper, he was perfect, but in reality, 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. I'm will daily. For years, I've been 20 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,839 Speaker 1: on the road playing shows and seeing America through live music. 21 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: This summer, I'll hit the stage who Season two of 22 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: Sound of Our Town ten cities twelve episodes every other Thursday, 23 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: we explore the live music venues and culture of a 24 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: new American city. With each new episode, our tour continues 25 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: into the kind of venues you want to get to 26 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: when you landed in Detroit, Providence, Denver, or Seattle. Listen 27 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: to Sound of Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 28 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the story 29 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: of a man who's fascinated me. His name was Sweet 30 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: Daddy Grace, and that's a name you don't forget. He 31 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: was a visionary who built a fortune as a black 32 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: man during Jim Crow during the Depression, but today not 33 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: many people know about him. He raised sort of wiped out, 34 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: and I want if this was done intentionally. Listen to 35 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: Sweet Daddy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or 36 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. The first trial involving the 37 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: Wagner family for the Rodan Family massacre has begun. George Wagner, 38 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: the fourth is the first to go on trial. That 39 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: thirty year old will face a jury for the first 40 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: time when opening statements begin around nine o'clock. Jake Wagner 41 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: said that he rearranged Hannah May's body so that her 42 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: newborn baby could breastfeed off of her now a dying 43 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: or dead mother. They were thinking that if they wiped 44 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: out the entire Rodan family, there would be no one 45 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 1: left to battle them for custody of this child. Billy 46 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: came running out of the residence saying, I just shot 47 00:02:54,000 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: my best friend. I just shot my best friend. This 48 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: is the Pike did massacre Trials begin Season four, Episode two, 49 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: opening statements. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie 50 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:18,679 Speaker 1: Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane. It's a gray 51 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: morning in Waverley, Ohio, and you can feel the first 52 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 1: hint of fall weather starting to seep into the air. 53 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: Everyone has filed inside the courtroom by nine am. Good morning. 54 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: This is the case of State of Ohio plaintiff versus 55 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: George Washington Wagoner, the fourth defended. Today is September twelve, 56 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, and we continue proceedings in the trial 57 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: of this matter with multiple attorneys, sheriff's deputies, and a 58 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: scattering of television monitors throughout the courtroom. It feels small. 59 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,839 Speaker 1: Darkwood walls and a thick red carpet make it seem 60 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: even more so. There is a large hand pinked murreau 61 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: on the wall behind Judge Deering that says Justicia. It's 62 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: Latin and means justice for all. Present today is the 63 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: defendant with his attorneys John Parker and Richard Nash. The 64 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: statable HIO was represented by Rob Junk, prosecuting attorney and 65 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: special prosecutors Angela Kanepa and Andrew Wilson. It's important to 66 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: note that George Wagner the Fourth, currently on trial, and 67 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,239 Speaker 1: his father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, have pleaded 68 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: not guilty to all charges. George Wagner the Fourth sits 69 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: between his lawyers, motionless, staring straight ahead as the judge 70 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: instructs the jury. He looks thin earth than he did 71 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: over the summer and has lost some hair as well. 72 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: There's no one in court to support George Wagner, and 73 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: the media is allocated to his side of the courtroom. 74 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: Angeanette Levy is one of the reporters kind of goes 75 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: to this whole thing of how they were kind of 76 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: insular and operating as one unit. There's nobody there to 77 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: support George Wagner the fourth and it's kind of sad 78 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,679 Speaker 1: when you think about it. Courtney and I were actually 79 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: sitting behind him. Then kind of occurred to us after 80 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: that if you had access to the feed, that it 81 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: might appear that we were in support of the Wagners 82 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: just by being there, which gave us some pause. It's 83 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: really hard if you're in that courtroom if you're not 84 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: sitting up front to hear at times, so getting a 85 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: front row seat is actually better, and nobody should read 86 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: anything into people sitting behind George Wagner. It's not a 87 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 1: show of support. It's just a matter of logistics and 88 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: where we were told to sit. Today, the court will 89 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: give some preliminary instructions to the jury, after which there 90 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: will be opening statements by counsel. These opening statements of 91 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: counsel are not evidence, but they are a preview of 92 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: the claims of each party, and they are designed to 93 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: help you follow the evidence as it is presented. Because 94 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 1: there will be no witness his call to the stand today, 95 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: the video feed to media outside the courtroom is up 96 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: and running for people at home. Basically, the prosecutor's office 97 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: will be giving the jury members kind of the roadmap 98 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: of where they're taking this investigation to prove their case. 99 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: That's exactly what opening statement is. It's a roadmap letting 100 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: the jury know what they think they can prove, where 101 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: they think their case is going to go. The important 102 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: thing about opening statement is do not overpromise. Lead prosecuting 103 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: Attorney Angie Kneppa gets up to address the jury. She 104 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: has blonde, shoulder lenked hair with bangs, and is wearing 105 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: a smart, conservative navy blue suit. Let's talk about why 106 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: we are here. We are here, ladies and gentlemen, jury 107 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: because this defended George Wagner the fourth a George Wagner 108 00:06:54,720 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: and his brother Edward J. Wagner, Jacob Wagner and father 109 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: George by Her the third, also known as Billy Webber, 110 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: murdered eight people who did not deserve to die and 111 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: went back to sinking. Kneppa speaks with an air of 112 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: confidence and directness. The question that has been asked the 113 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: most over the past six and a half years is 114 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: why why did four individuals plot to kill eight members 115 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: of another family? And I think you will be disappointed 116 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: to learn that there is no good reason. These murders 117 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: happened after a period of three months of planning and 118 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: plotting and purchasing and preparing and executing eight individuals of 119 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: a family. And in part you will learn his mother, 120 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: who helped in the planning and plotting of this. You 121 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: will learn that the defendants knew that before they walk 122 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: out of the door that night to kill these individuals, 123 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: that there might be other people there, and they all 124 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: agree those people would have to be killed too, regardless 125 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: of the fact that they literally have no issue with 126 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: any of those other individuals. As Andrew Kneppa talks about 127 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: the collateral damage of the Knight of the murders, George 128 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: bows his head ever so slightly and looks down. They 129 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: were willing to kill indiscriminately with no reason. At this 130 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: point she locks in with the jury. Kneppa spends almost 131 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: twenty minutes detailing the last known moments of the Roden family. 132 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 1: Chris Roden, Sr. Was forty years old at the time 133 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: of his death. You see here that on April twenty 134 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: first of twenty sixteen, his last out wayne text was 135 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: to Dana Roden. Dana Roden was thirty seven years old 136 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 1: at the time she was killed, and she was last 137 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: seen on video surveillance at the People's One Stop having 138 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 1: a conversation with her friend and co worker, Frankie. Roden 139 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: was twenty years old. The last activity we see on 140 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: his phone, just before eleven PM, he takes a picture 141 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: of both of his children sleeping. Hannah May Roden had 142 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: just turned nineteen a few weeks prior to her death. 143 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: Her last outgoing contact was a text to Corey Holdron. 144 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: You may recall Corey Holdron was Hannah May's boyfriend at 145 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: the time of the murders. There were two things that 146 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: were kind of chilling about that. One was that the 147 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: boyfriend was supposed to go over there and hang out, 148 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: and his sister had some kind of plumbing problem or something, 149 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: so he couldn't come over, and that probably saved his life. 150 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: The other thing was that Chris Junior had friends over 151 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: all the time, but he was grounded, and he would 152 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: have had a friend over sleeping, over, hanging out playing 153 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: video games or whatever, but he was grounded, so his 154 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: friend couldn't come over, and that's saved his friend's life. 155 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: They were going to kill anybody as collateral damage that 156 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: were in those trailers, here's Stephanie. I have to say, 157 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: hearing the details about each victim's final moments was a 158 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: piece of the puzzle we'd never heard before. Just knowing 159 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: that Corey Holdron was the last person that Hannahme wrote 160 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: and texted before the murders is kind of a chilling detail. 161 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: The idea that little Chris Junior, who was again just 162 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: a little teenager having a buddy over for a sleepover 163 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: where they were going to play video games all night, 164 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: who can't relate to that? It was very chilling. When 165 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: Angie Kneppa goes on to say what could have been 166 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: that night, there could have been even more victims indiscriminately 167 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: taken with his track. Actually, now we're hearing these details 168 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: from the prosecution that we just hadn't known before. Angie Kneppa, 169 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: I think, particularly in this section of her opening statement, 170 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: it was really incredibly effective. She is painting a picture 171 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: of the moments in these victims lives, and you can 172 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: see them and you can place yourselves in their shoes, 173 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: whether it's the last known thing they did, was taking 174 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: a picture of their kids, or was having a conversation 175 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: with a coworker while stopping by on an errand after work. 176 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: The fact that people's lives were taken purely as collateral damage. 177 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: The Wagners, according to everything that's been said, we're willing 178 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: to take those quote extra lives. So just by happenstance. 179 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: Gary Rodin was there that night, and we have interviewed 180 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: several people over the years who have said, you know, 181 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: Gary would frequently do that. He would just pop up 182 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: Christiniors and crash for a night or two, sometimes even 183 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: up to a week, and then months would go by 184 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: where he wouldn't and again, wrong plays, wrong time. Kanepa 185 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: alines the entire trajectory of Jake and Hannah's relationship. Hannah 186 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: may Roden her crime was not returning the love of 187 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner, not submitting to the control of the Wagners. 188 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: And you will learn that that is the character of 189 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: this family, was very controlling of any women who came 190 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: into their circle. It kind of starts with a love story, 191 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: if you want to call that. A very young teenage girl, 192 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: Hannah may Roden, age thirteen at the time, was at 193 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: the Pike County Fairgrounds and somebody introduced her to Jacob. 194 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: Two years later, Hannah Rodin is pregnant with the daughter 195 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 1: she shares with Jake Wagner. There are text messages from 196 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: Jake to Hannahme, which state quote I'll take and if 197 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: I have to buy force? This is when was still 198 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 1: inside of Hannahme's womb. Hannahme gives birth to the daughter 199 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: she shares with Jake Wagner in twenty thirteen and eventually 200 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 1: goes to live with the Wagner's, but things go south quickly. 201 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: Angela wants the little girl to call her mom even 202 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: when Hannahme is there. It's all too much for Hannah. 203 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: Hearing these text messages really puts to light the fact 204 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: that Hanname rode In was clearly in an abusive relationship 205 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 1: with Jake Wagner. And sometimes when you're in interviewsive relationship, 206 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: you get desensitized to bad behavior. And in her case, 207 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: she was wise enough and brave enough to get out 208 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: of that relationship despite her young age. And also she 209 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: was very fortunate to have a loving family in a 210 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: safe place to land with her family. Not everybody has that, 211 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: And I think that's the double whammy here is that 212 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 1: she did everything correctly. She got out of an abusive situation. 213 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: She tried to make things better. She tried to keep 214 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: things cool with the father of her daughter. Her family 215 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: justifiably looked out for her and protected her, and yet 216 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: even that didn't offer enough safety for any of them. Eventually, 217 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: Hannahme leaves Jake in early twenty fifteen. She calls her 218 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: father asks for him to come get her. Jacob choked 219 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: her and she could not handle the controlling nature of 220 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: not just Jake, but also the family. April twenty second, 221 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, after the news breaks about the murders, James 222 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: Manley goes to check in on his sister Dana Roden, 223 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: his nephew Little Chris, and niece Hannah Me. When he 224 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: gets there, he also notices that the door is a jar. 225 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: He went back to her bedroom. She was covered up, 226 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: so he didn't know if she was in the bed. 227 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: He felt around in the bed until he could feel 228 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: that her body was there, and he lifted the pillow 229 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: that was covering her face. She was deceased, shot in 230 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: the head. He goes to check on Hannah May. He 231 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: will tell you that he heard the five day old 232 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: baby crying, but he could not bring himself to go 233 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: back and see anything more. Canepa brings up Jake's confession 234 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: of what happened that night. Stephanie and I speak with 235 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: Angeanette Levy. I think one of the most stunning things 236 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: out of opening statements that I heard was the fact 237 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: that Jake Wagner told the prosecutors that he was in 238 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: Dana Rodin's house, where Hannah May and Chris Junior were 239 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: also in the home, and that he could see Dana 240 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: Rodin was still awake and had the light from herself 241 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: phone up to her face. And then he said that 242 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: he was standing kind of by Dana Roden's bedroom, and 243 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: Hannah Roden's bedroom was nearby, and the newborn baby started crying, 244 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: and so he didn't want Dana Rodin getting up or 245 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: waking up or what have you to help with the baby. 246 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: So he stepped into the room and shot her in 247 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: the head, and then went over to Hannah May's room, 248 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: and Hannah May turned and according to Angie Kaneppa, Jake 249 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: believes she saw him but didn't necessarily recognize him. He 250 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: wasn't sure of that, and then he then shot her. 251 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: And it's so flabbergasting to me the fact that Angie 252 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: Kneppa said Jake Wagner said that he rearranged Hannah May's 253 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: body so that her newborn baby could breastfeed, if that's 254 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: even possible off of her now a dying or dead mother. 255 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: I feel like you couldn't make that up. And keep 256 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: in mind, this was after he'd already killed, allegedly or 257 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 1: helped kill, I should say. According to Jake Christinior and Gary, 258 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: it is the detail that I think was the most 259 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: haunting takeaway from opening statements. It's such a disturbing detail 260 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: on top of so many disturbing details. We're going to 261 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh. 262 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. 263 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 264 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 265 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 266 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 267 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted into the point she went unconscious. 268 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: Bob could lie about any thing, but only takes the 269 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, 270 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him 271 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 1: to pay for his crime. He needed to be put 272 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw 273 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call 274 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 275 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: I will always hound you and haunt you. You can 276 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: listen to the girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 277 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney. 278 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: Hell is going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd 279 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: never confronted a situation like this. I just thought it 280 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: was just a really terrible immoral thing, a line they 281 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: won't cross. I was stunned, and I just said, no, 282 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: we're killing people. You may never have to face that 283 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: decision when you find yourself at that line. Bounce Ricin, 284 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: arn't ricin, And somebody needs to just for once give 285 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 1: everybody the whole truth, like this is evil and the 286 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: only person who can sound the alarm is you. I 287 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: wasn't just going to sit silently. Buy from iHeart podcasts. 288 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: These are the whistleblowers. If you are disloyal, thinks are 289 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: going to happen to speak out disgrace to our cut. 290 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: Evil play should be prosecute. When power corrupts conscience is 291 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: the last line of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to 292 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 293 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. My name's Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, 294 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: and host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember 295 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: my award winning first season. I've been pretty busy. There's 296 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: always time to touch incredible guests about important things. People 297 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: like me have been screaming for years. We've got to 298 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: watch the Supreme Court. Where they're doing is wrong. What 299 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: they're doing as evil. They will take things away. And 300 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: I can only hope that Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor, 301 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: Mo girl, you and I both know what it took 302 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: to just get through the day in New York City 303 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 1: and get home in one piece. And so the fact 304 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: that we're here and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, 305 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 1: you know, that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining 306 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: about some bills. The only reason that you might think, 307 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: as Chase said, that we're always miserable is because people 308 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen 309 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: to The Laverne Cox Show. On the iHeartRadio app, Apple 310 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you get your podcast be sure to 311 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: subscribe and share. She's a Hollywood Western She's Jack Harrowak, 312 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: but in a nap dress with braids. She is one 313 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: of the most important American children's authors of the twentieth century. 314 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: She's the basis for a television show still watched around 315 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: the world. Somebody somewhere is watching Little Us in the Proof. 316 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 1: She's been called a hero, a racist, a feminist, and 317 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: a proper gandhist. I think the harm is too great 318 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: because it's just one more thing that Native children have 319 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: to endure. She is Laura Ingles Wilder, author of the 320 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: book series Little House on the Prairie. As a kid, 321 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: I idolized Laura, and last summer I went on the 322 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: road in search of the real Laura. We're literally on 323 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: the prairie. What I found was a complicated person alongside 324 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: the complicated country she represents. I'm Glennis McNichol, and this 325 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: is Wilder. Listen to Wilder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 326 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. The tragic arc of 327 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: Jake and Hannah's romance highlights how intertwined the families were 328 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: both in love and in business. It turns out it 329 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: was also the undoing of the Wagner's When Jake Wagner 330 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: was initially interviewed pretty eartham the investigation, he indicated that 331 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: everything was just dandy between he and Hannah May. A 332 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: large part of the prosecution's case revolves around texts and 333 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,959 Speaker 1: Facebook messages that paint anything but a rosy picture of 334 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: Jake and Hannah's battle over their daughter. The media letches 335 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: onto it immediately. Prosecutors said the Wagners were aware of 336 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: a chilling statement that Hannah me Roden made on social 337 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: media about that little girl's custody just weeks before the killings. 338 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: In Facebook messages their girls mom, Hannah said the only 339 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: way he would get custody is if quote, they kill me. 340 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: Prosecutors said that Wagners knew about that private social media 341 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: post because they had stolen the passwords of the person 342 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: that Hannah Roden sent that message too. Additionally, Billy Wagner 343 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: was interviewed and he indicated that he did not have 344 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 1: the phone that he had at the time of the 345 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: homicides because he kept trying to call Chris Senior. Because 346 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: Chris Senior was his best friend, and after the homicides, 347 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: he kept trying to call Colin and he finally got 348 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 1: frustrated and upset one day and broke his phone. Well, 349 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 1: that was a good story, but it wasn't true, because 350 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: we have phone records that Indicatie never once tried to 351 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: call Chris Senior. According to Kneppa, Jacol testified to the 352 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: complicated and deep relationship Billy had with Chris Senior. Here again, Stephanie, 353 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: We've always heard that Billy Wagner and Chris Senior. You know, 354 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 1: they knew each other for a long time. They might 355 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 1: have done some ancillary work stuff together, but best friends. 356 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 1: Never have I heard that Billy Wagner was his best bud. 357 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: I too, have never heard the term best friends as 358 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: it relates to Billy Wagner and Chris Roden Senior. However, 359 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: we do know there is a past, there are some 360 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: business dealings, There are grandpas to the same baby. That's 361 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: fair in this moment. During the opening statement, Angrew Kneppa 362 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 1: then goes on to give a preview of what Jake 363 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 1: will say in his testimony, including some details like the 364 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 1: night of the murder when Billy was at Chris Senior's house. 365 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: Before Chris was aware of what was going on, Billy 366 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: asked Chris Senior to call him because quote, he couldn't 367 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: find his phone. When an actuality, all of the Wagner's 368 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: phones were back with Angela, so that when Chris Senior 369 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: called Billy's phone or any of the other phones, they 370 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: would register at being at home. Even just having the 371 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: foresight to put that part of the plan in place, 372 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: they were smart enough to know that these phones will 373 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: be tracked and they will ping someplace, and that will 374 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: provide them with an alibi. Angie Kneppa continues, Jake will 375 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: tell you that Billy came running out of the residence 376 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 1: and was hysterical, saying, I just shot my best friend. 377 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 1: I just shot my best friend, he will say. At 378 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 1: that point, he and George tried to calm Billy down, 379 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: and George and Billy drug the bodies of Gary Rowden 380 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 1: and Chris Senior back to the bedroom of Chris Senior 381 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: Anjeanette Levy. In Chris Senior's home, there was a long 382 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: path of blood drag marks from where apparently he and 383 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: Gary Rowden had been dragged back into a back bedroom 384 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: and essentially thrown on top of each other, and then 385 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: a comforter thrown on top of them. You know, they 386 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: were just thrown away like trash. Chris Senior was shot 387 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: just in that general area nine times, so there was 388 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: just a long path of blood. There were so many 389 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: familial roots and conflicting feelings between the two families. But 390 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: why the totality of the crime the entire family. Early 391 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: in her statement, Anti Kneppa alludes to the lateral damage 392 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: and indiscriminate killing in this focused custody battle over Jake 393 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 1: Wagner and Hannah May's share daughter. Chris Roden Senior was 394 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: one of the intended targets of the Wagner's That's because 395 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: he was the patriarch of the family and they considered 396 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: basically that if they kind of got rid of him, 397 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: that the structure of the family would fall. And they 398 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: also knew that if they only killed Hannah May, that 399 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: he would know who did it, and he would that 400 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 1: would either get them arrested or he would retaliate. Gary 401 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: Roden was killed simply because he was there. As Kneppa 402 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: goes through the entire family at the Defenses Council table, 403 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: George Wagner, the fourth looks down for this entire part 404 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: of the statement. Kenneth Roden and Chris Roden Senior were 405 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: very close to each other. There had been prior occasions 406 00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: where Chris Roden had been hurt and Kenneth taliated on 407 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: his behalf. So the Wagners very much knew that about Kenneth, 408 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: and so they decided that he had to be killed 409 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: because again he would know who it was. We have 410 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 1: kind of been working under the narrative that whoever did 411 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: this wanted to wipe out the entire bloodline, frankly or 412 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: anybody who would potentially lay claim to custody of the 413 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 1: then three year old, But it also sounds like some 414 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 1: of the victims were targeted because they feared retribution. Kenneth 415 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: Rowden has always been a confusing crime scene to me 416 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: because we never understood why. And maybe now it makes 417 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 1: sense that the idea was he was very very close 418 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: with Chris Senior, and he was very close to the 419 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: entire family, and had he known that anybody had ill 420 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: will toward his family, that, you know, he would have 421 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: taken retribution. That makes sense to me, but I hadn't 422 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: thought of it before. I always thought they would have 423 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: been wiped out because they would have possibly known who 424 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: did it, not necessarily because of the retribution or revenge 425 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: aspect of it. It would have just been like, oh, 426 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: you have knowledge that you knew you were going to 427 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: put the point the cops at us. But they make 428 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: it sound like no, Kenneth would have maybe taken matters 429 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: into his own hands and taken care of this himself. 430 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: The fact that Hannah Hazel, I always thought she was 431 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: killed because of Charlie Gilly, because of a jealousy type 432 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: thing there. But apparently they say she was just collateral damage, 433 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: that she was killed because she was there. Gary Rowden 434 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: was killed because he was there. The logic doesn't grock 435 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: with me. She was Frankie's fiance. Of course she was 436 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: going to be there. Seemed like it was Dana's house, 437 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: of course she was going to be there. I really 438 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: I can't logically compute it. I think it's more like 439 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: Hannah Hazel wasn't a target, but it was almost like 440 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: they had to kill her because she was there. You 441 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: can't go in and kill Frankie and not kill her 442 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: and say that. To me, it's just not that it 443 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: ever makes sense to kill anybody. But that's just even 444 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: more senseless if they were fearing that the Rodin family 445 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: would want to take matters into their own hands. Not 446 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,959 Speaker 1: that they said that, but it was intimated that they 447 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: feared retribution. That also shows how much they were loved. 448 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: They were all steeped in so much loving history that yeah, 449 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: it speaks to the fact that they were all very close. 450 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: The motive to kill Dana Rodin always seemed murky. And 451 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: how about the fact that Dana Roden was considered not 452 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: a target, which I find really strange because how could 453 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: she not have been an intended target because she could 454 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: have possibly laid claim to She would have known about 455 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: the custody battle, and she was going to be home 456 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: that night. I mean maybe if she had worked an 457 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: overnight shift. We knew she worked a later shift to 458 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: double that day and got home later. But how could 459 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: she not have been an intended target if they had 460 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: already said, you know, even if Chris Junior had a 461 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: friend over or they would have killed that person. They 462 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: would have killed whoever was there. So how was Dana 463 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: Road not an intended target? According to Kneppa, Dana was 464 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: privy to the threatch Dick made towards Hannah Dana couldn't 465 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: be left alive to reveal what she knew. When Chris 466 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: Senior and Gary's bodies were found, another persistent theme in 467 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: our investigation was discovered. Bobby Joe will tell you that 468 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: on this particular morning, she and Billie and Emma Morgan 469 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: drove up to that location. Emma and Billy Morgan were 470 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: a married couple living with Bobby Joe Manley. They would 471 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: come to Chris Senior's house in the morning to help 472 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: feed his animals. Typically, Chris Senior is not there when 473 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: they arrive because he gets up early and he's already 474 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: on his way to Big Bear Lake where he works 475 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: every day. He operated, did heavy equipment, and did construction, 476 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: built decks and stuff like that. You will learn that 477 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: they immediately thought something was amiss because Christinior's truck was 478 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: still at the house and both of the inside dogs 479 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: were sitting outside of the house on the front porch. 480 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: Gary Roden was thirty eight when he was killed. He 481 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: was from Kentucky and would come up to piked In 482 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: and live with Chris Sior on and off. Gary also 483 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: worked at Big Bear Lake. Billy went to go start 484 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: feeding the animals Bobby Joe goes up to the house 485 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: to see what's going on with Chris. Why the dogs 486 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: are out all that stuff? The door is locked. That's 487 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: also unusual. They obviously were not prepared for what they 488 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: saw when they entered that residence. When they found Chris, 489 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: he was wearing a big Bear Lake sweatshirt. They quickly 490 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: exited and she went to the car where Emma Morgan 491 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: they call her. Emmy, was still seated, and she retrieved 492 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: her telephone and made a phone call to nine one one. 493 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: Another loose end in the case has brought up as well. 494 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: Angie Kneppa mentions what he calls a quote false exculpatory story. 495 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: It's a story about a big drug deal in California 496 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: that Billy Wagner and Chris Rodinorre supposed to be a 497 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: part of. Also a part of this alleged deal was 498 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: a man named Skid Montgomery. It's important to note that 499 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: we are not saying Skid Montgomery has any drug related convictions, 500 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: nor are we saying he's implicated in any way into 501 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: the murders. This is simply a reporting of what was 502 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: brought up in open court after the murders. A local 503 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: man named Jeff Tackett got a visit from his friend 504 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: Billy Wagner. He said after the homicides, Billy came to 505 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: his home and stood at the end of the driveway 506 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: and talked to him and said that he couldn't stand himself. 507 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: He also told a story about Skid Montgomery, one of 508 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: the wealthiest and most powerful people in Pike County, possibly 509 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: arranging the Rodent murders because Chris Senior cut Skid out 510 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: of a drug deal. And we've heard no evidence that 511 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: Chris Senior and Skid Montgomery were actually involved in drug 512 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: dealing together, but we've heard that Billy and Chris Senior 513 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: were business associates. We've also gotten a lot of tips 514 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: from listeners in and around the area who keep pointing 515 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: to Skid Montgomery as something relevant. The prosecution also seems 516 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: to be rolling out the cartel as part of their case. 517 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: Whoever killed these individuals were very intimate with both the 518 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: personal habits of the Rodents and the residences themselves. I 519 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: told you that Dana Roden and Hanname and Little Chris 520 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: had just moved into that residence less than thirty days prior, 521 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: so you had to know them well enough to know that, right. 522 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: This kind of gets rod of the drug cartel idea. Yeah, 523 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: you know in other individuals who just wouldn't know that. 524 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: So here's Billy putting out this new theory and it's 525 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: caught enough wind that even we've heard about it. I'm 526 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: curious what the connection to this Skid Montgomery is. What 527 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: do you think about the fact that Auntie Kneppa is 528 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: sort of eliminating any of the theories regarding the cartel. 529 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: I think that what she's doing is a good job 530 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: at her job as a prosecutor. She's laying forth a 531 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: narrative and she wants to make sure there is no 532 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:38,720 Speaker 1: other focus on anything but what she is saying is true, 533 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: and that it was the Wagners and the Wagners alone. 534 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: Is it the full story? We'll find out. Much has 535 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,439 Speaker 1: been made of the fact that the opening statements are 536 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: very long. Keep in mind, there's so much to cover 537 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: and it has to be very thorough. She has to 538 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: really take her time and lay it all out there, 539 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: because one misstep could jeopardize the whole case. All in all, 540 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: Angie Kneppa's opening statement runs nearly four hours long. The 541 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: reaction from the media swift and none too kind. Let's 542 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: talk about the prosecution and the storytelling, because we've had 543 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 1: legally an ass on and viewers has said the opening 544 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: statement of the prosecution was very lengthy, somewhat confusing, pretty 545 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 1: tedious about the details. It wasn't what I would have done, 546 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,399 Speaker 1: which is to come out say what the crime was, 547 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: tell them what the crime was, who the victims were, 548 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: who you think the perpetrators are. I thought it could 549 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: have been done a much more streamlined and more effectively. 550 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: I was thinking to myself, oh my god, or these 551 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: jurors going to be confused, but had to be overwhelming. 552 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: Much has been made about Angie Caneppa's maybe being too 553 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: long winded, or she's giving so much information that to 554 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: your earlier point, it would be really hard for a 555 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: juror to kind of track all of these details at 556 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: the end of the day. Mike Allen had a different take. 557 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: You know a lot of people lawyers too that I see, 558 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: had said, Man, how could she had given such a 559 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,280 Speaker 1: long opening statement? You know, she probably lost the jury 560 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: and opening statements are never usually that long from the prosecutor. However, 561 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: in this case, there is so much that she had 562 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: to unpack and tell that jury, and I was there 563 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,320 Speaker 1: that day. I watched it. She did not lose that jury. 564 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: She didn't. They were just transfixed by what she was 565 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:45,879 Speaker 1: telling them. Let's stop here for another break. Oh. I'm 566 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 1: Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The girl Friends. 567 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,839 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 568 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 569 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 570 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 571 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,879 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He chouked into the point she went unconscious. 572 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,399 Speaker 1: Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one 573 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 1: time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us 574 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to 575 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,919 Speaker 1: pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. 576 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 577 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 578 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 579 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 580 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: The Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 581 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts from iHeart Podcasts. Whatney hell is 582 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 1: going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd never confronted 583 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: a situation like this. I just thought it was just 584 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 1: a really terrible immoral thing, a line they won't cross. 585 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: I was stunned, and I just said, no, we're killing people. 586 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 1: You may never have to face that decision when you 587 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,760 Speaker 1: find yourself at that lineouts ricin, arn't ricin, And somebody 588 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,760 Speaker 1: needs to just for once give everybody the whole truth, 589 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 1: like this is evil and the only person who can 590 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: sound the alarm is you. I wasn't just going to 591 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:24,320 Speaker 1: sit silently. Buy from iHeart Podcasts. These are the whistleblowers. 592 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 1: If you are disloyal, thinks are going to happen to 593 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: speak out disgrace to our good. Evil should be prosecuted 594 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,240 Speaker 1: when power corrupts. Conscience is the last line of defense. 595 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, 596 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's 597 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of 598 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,479 Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my award winning 599 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 1: first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always time to 600 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: touch incredible guests about important things. People like me have 601 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,959 Speaker 1: been screaming for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court. 602 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,439 Speaker 1: What they're doing is wrong, what they're doing as evil. 603 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: They will take things away. And I can only hope 604 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: that Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor moment, Grol, you 605 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: and I both know what it took to just get 606 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,959 Speaker 1: through the day in New York City and get home 607 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: in one piece. And so the fact that we're here 608 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 1: and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, 609 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:31,280 Speaker 1: that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. 610 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,839 Speaker 1: The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, 611 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,280 Speaker 1: that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking 612 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to The Laverne 613 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 614 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share. 615 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: On the Best Podcast Ever with Raven and Miranda, you'll 616 00:39:54,760 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: hear well the best podcast Ever. Join Raven Simone and 617 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: her partner Miranda may Day as they let the Wheel 618 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: of Words determine the topic of that week's show. Every 619 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: episode will spend a wheel of random words from things 620 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,839 Speaker 1: like animosity, to something like Zodiac and whatever it lands on, 621 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,919 Speaker 1: that's what we're going to talk about for around an hour. 622 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: I think we can't do it. Well, then you've never 623 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: heard us talk. Each week, Raven and Miranda and celebrity 624 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: guests like Demi Levado, Kiki Palmer and Megan Trainer will 625 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 1: spend the Fateful Wheel and then the conversation will begin. Also, 626 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: we're gonna have a ton of amazing guests because you 627 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 1: don't want to just hear us to all the time. 628 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 1: Do yes, you do? And somehow We're going to start 629 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,440 Speaker 1: with something like Spider and end with well, when was 630 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 1: your last nervous breakdown? Listen to the Best podcast Ever 631 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: with Raven and Miranda on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts 632 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:56,759 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts, and you can up 633 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 1: and may already be planting seeds. One of the more 634 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: eviting aspects of the opening statement is about the evidence 635 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,359 Speaker 1: the jury will see in coming weeks. On the day 636 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,760 Speaker 1: after the Wagners left for Alaska, search warrants were already 637 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: in place and police were combing the property for evidence. 638 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: A neighbor approached them and offered up a tip. The 639 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: Wagner family had put all of their belongings and trailers 640 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: and parked them off Route forty one. When please search 641 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 1: these trailers, they found a gold mine. In a plastic 642 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:32,919 Speaker 1: tub labeled quote important Things. They found custody documents and more. 643 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:38,439 Speaker 1: And by custody documents, I mean documents that one would 644 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,759 Speaker 1: fill out so that if anything happened to you, your 645 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 1: children would go to somebody. So there were documents that 646 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: purported to be signed by Hannah May that said if 647 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,239 Speaker 1: I die, I want my child to go to Jake Right. 648 00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,799 Speaker 1: That piece of paper was dated as if Hannah May 649 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: had signed it on December twenty fourth of twenty fourteen 650 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,280 Speaker 1: Christmas Eve twenty fourteen, which was really the last holiday 651 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,239 Speaker 1: that she spent with the Wagner's. As she lays this 652 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 1: out to the jury, you can hear confidence in Kneppa's voice. 653 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:20,319 Speaker 1: She stares them directly in the eye. The problem with that, 654 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,879 Speaker 1: first of all, was that our handwriting people looked at 655 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 1: it and said that Hannah May likely did not sign 656 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 1: that thing. But more importantly, it was printed off the 657 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: computer on April third, two thousand and sixteen. That piece 658 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:40,240 Speaker 1: of paper didn't even exist until April third or two sixteen, 659 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,760 Speaker 1: so it could not have been filled out in December 660 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:50,239 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen April third of two thousand and sixteen, just 661 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: a little over two weeks before the homicides. They're printing 662 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 1: this out so that if Hannah May would unexpectedly meet 663 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 1: the end would go to Jake. But what they found 664 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 1: next speaks to the question of who might be the 665 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: instigator of the entire massacre. But there were two other 666 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,240 Speaker 1: documents that we found on that day which are extremely telling. 667 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: There were two documents, one that Jake filled out and 668 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: one that George filled out, and they were dated, I 669 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,439 Speaker 1: believe in twenty fifteen March of twenty fifteen. But they 670 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 1: said for Jakes, if he dies and goes to Angela Wagner, 671 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:38,319 Speaker 1: not Hannah May, almost like they knew Hannah May wasn't 672 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:43,680 Speaker 1: going to be alive. That's one George Wagner also fills 673 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 1: out a custody document that if something happens to him 674 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:55,040 Speaker 1: on the night of the murders, his child will go 675 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: to his mother. So they were anticipating whether they got arrested, 676 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,600 Speaker 1: caught in the middle the act, or something worse. They 677 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:04,880 Speaker 1: wanted to make sure that custody of their children was 678 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:09,399 Speaker 1: secure On April third, twenty sixteen. All three of those 679 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: documents were printed out and filled out and signed Angeanette Levy. 680 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 1: We know that there were custody documents drawn up that 681 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,960 Speaker 1: gave custody of Jake and Hannamey's daughter to Angela. Should 682 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 1: anything happen to Jake or George, Maybe, and I say maybe, 683 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: because I don't know. You make it look like Jake 684 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:31,839 Speaker 1: did this and it was a murder suicide. Or maybe 685 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:33,879 Speaker 1: you just take him out because you want custody your 686 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,240 Speaker 1: granddaughter all to yourself. You make him do the dirty work. 687 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 1: I don't know, but Billy is obviously somebody who's been 688 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,680 Speaker 1: described by Jeff Tackett and other people as somebody who's 689 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:50,799 Speaker 1: capable of violence. For sure, kill your own kid. We're 690 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,840 Speaker 1: going from more demented to more demented. Angela did not 691 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,480 Speaker 1: minimize her own involvement. In fact, she will tell you 692 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: that it was her idea to begin with, and that 693 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:05,719 Speaker 1: she nagged and nagged nagged Billy to figure out a 694 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:09,920 Speaker 1: solution to the problem, the problem being that we're losing 695 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 1: control of the prosecution has argued that you know this 696 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,680 Speaker 1: was a family affair, that it was all for one 697 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 1: one for all. George Wagner of the Force lawyers disputed 698 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,320 Speaker 1: almost all of that. They also pointed out that their client, 699 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,480 Speaker 1: despite phasing eight aggravated murder charges, is not believed to 700 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,319 Speaker 1: have killed anyone. George is an outsider. George does not 701 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 1: go along with what his family does, and he didn't 702 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,400 Speaker 1: do it on that night. George is not guilty of murder, 703 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,360 Speaker 1: and we believe when you've heard all of the evidence, 704 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 1: you will agree George had no part in this murder 705 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:48,719 Speaker 1: much you'll find him not guilty. More on that next time. 706 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,120 Speaker 1: For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow 707 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:57,759 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pipes and 708 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: Maskers produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves, Scott 709 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:06,960 Speaker 1: de Graw, Andrew Arnow and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and 710 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,600 Speaker 1: sound designed by Jeff Ta Music by Jared Aston. The 711 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,040 Speaker 1: Pike Damasker is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. 712 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,399 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the heart 713 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:22,719 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 714 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:30,960 Speaker 1: favorite shows. I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast 715 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 1: called The girl Friends. It's Las Vegas. It's the nineteen 716 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,359 Speaker 1: nineties and it is time to find a husband. There 717 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:43,319 Speaker 1: were four Jewish doctors who were felt to be eligible bachelors. 718 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,080 Speaker 1: One of them one of the spot Baron Bout. On paper, 719 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:51,440 Speaker 1: he was perfect, but in reality, this guy's a wacko. 720 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,520 Speaker 1: He choked into the point she went unconscious. I would 721 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:57,920 Speaker 1: call him and I would say, I know you killed 722 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 1: my sister. You can listen to the girl Friends on 723 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. 724 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,799 Speaker 1: This is the story of a man who's fascinated me. 725 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,520 Speaker 1: His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, and that's a name 726 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,920 Speaker 1: you don't forget. He was a visionary who built a 727 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:20,200 Speaker 1: fortune as a black man during Jim Crow during the Depression, 728 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 1: but today not many people know about him. The race 729 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,960 Speaker 1: sort of wiped out, and I wonder if this was 730 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 1: done intentionally. Listen to Sweet Daddy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, 731 00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:37,080 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm will daily. 732 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,120 Speaker 1: For years, I've been on the road playing shows and 733 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:42,479 Speaker 1: seeing America through live music. This summer I'll hit the stage. 734 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,360 Speaker 1: Who Season two of Sound of Our Town ten Cities 735 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,479 Speaker 1: twelve episodes, every other Thursday, we explore the live music, 736 00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:51,919 Speaker 1: venues and culture of a new American city. With each 737 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,840 Speaker 1: new episode, our tour continues into the kind of venues 738 00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:58,240 Speaker 1: you want to get to when you landed in Detroit, Providence, Denver, 739 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,200 Speaker 1: or Seattle. Into Sound of our Town on the iHeartRadio app, 740 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm 741 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 1: Free and I'm rthy. We have spent the last twenty 742 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,800 Speaker 1: years building and working at some of the largest companies 743 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,440 Speaker 1: in the world. We worked with some remarkable people. Rob Mcalenney. 744 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:19,480 Speaker 1: When I see the people of Wrexham, I grew up 745 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,319 Speaker 1: exactly like them. Check out the Art and tree Arm Show. 746 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:27,000 Speaker 1: That is a R D HI and s R I 747 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,919 Speaker 1: R A M show. Listen to the Art and stree 748 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,840 Speaker 1: Arm Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever 749 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:35,920 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.