Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: Riccardo Housman is definitive on his Venezuela. Riccardo, I want
Speaker 2: to go back before your acclaim at Harvard, before your
Speaker 2: public service decades ago, to your Venezuela. How did the
Speaker 2: Houseman family get from a World War two Europe over
Speaker 2: to Venezuela. How did your family emigrate to Venezuela a
Speaker 2: lifetime ago.
Speaker 1: Well, a Jewish family, my father, they both went through
Speaker 1: the Holocaust. My father lost both his parents. He arrived
Speaker 1: at Venezuela at age seventeen with some He managed to
Speaker 1: get himself to Spain, and then everybody in Spain thought
Speaker 1: that Hitler was going to take over Spain, so he
Speaker 1: ended up with another relative in Venezuela. And my mother
Speaker 1: lived through the the German occupation in Belgium and she
Speaker 1: was freed by the USGIS in September nineteen forty four.
Speaker 1: She was living with a Catholic family in a village
Speaker 1: in the south of Belgium until they were liberated. She
Speaker 1: lived for over a year thereafter after, as you know,
Speaker 1: they got the papers to go to the train station
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty two, So that's That's how they ended
Speaker 1: up in Venezuela. And in Venezuela they had a you know,
Speaker 1: they created a really really nice life for themselves. And
Speaker 1: so when I grew up, Venezuela was this heaven and
Speaker 1: well I had this image of Europe as this horrible
Speaker 1: place where my parents had covered from right, I.
Speaker 2: Look Professor Housman and against this is part of the story,
Speaker 2: folks from Venezuela's at the tip of oargin China. Your
Speaker 2: economist essay written yesterday for Zeniment is absolutely scathing. You
Speaker 2: say the President of the United States is quote delusional.
Speaker 2: What does President Trump get wrong?
Speaker 1: Well, he thinks that extracting oil from the ground is
Speaker 1: a technical issue. But extracting oil from the ground, if
Speaker 1: it was a technical issue and as well, would be
Speaker 1: a powerhouse. But the reason why oil production in Venezuela collapsed,
Speaker 1: that so many other things collapsed, is because oil is
Speaker 1: a long term investment proposition. You have to part with
Speaker 1: a lot of money and wait until you know you
Speaker 1: get a cash flow to recover that money over a
Speaker 1: very long period of time. And in that long period
Speaker 1: of time, you have to be assured that you have
Speaker 1: some property rights that are going to be respected. And
Speaker 1: if he thinks that right now, he's going to recover
Speaker 1: oil production because he's going to tell us major companies
Speaker 1: to go out and part with billions of dollars in
Speaker 1: Venezuela in the context of an illegitimate government because Madula
Speaker 1: stole an election. But this woman who's now president of Venezuela,
Speaker 1: she didn't even win a pretend to win an election.
Speaker 1: She was appointed by a guy who stole an election.
Speaker 1: And he's going to get concessions that have no approval
Speaker 1: in law by any any national assembly that was elected
Speaker 1: by anybody. And you would expect at the moment they
Speaker 1: will go back to democracy, that any of those conditions
Speaker 1: are going to be respected by a new by a
Speaker 1: new political majority. So I think that there is the
Speaker 1: Democracy is not a goal to be put after economic recovery.
Speaker 1: Democracy is an instrument of economic recovery. It's the way
Speaker 1: of telling Venezuelans your rights will be protected. Go back
Speaker 1: and and and and you know, dream go.
Speaker 2: Back to You knew as a kid RICARDA Houston with
Speaker 2: us of Carver University. Folks were thrilled that he could
Speaker 2: be with the Shannon O'Neil coming up We welcome all
Speaker 2: of you around the world. Please subscribe YouTube Paul and
Speaker 2: I humbled by the digital success this year. Paul Sweeney
Speaker 2: with Ricardo Housman, Professor.
Speaker 3: Do we know or what can you tell us about
Speaker 3: what the average Venezuelan really on the ground once from
Speaker 3: this government going forward or from any government?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean Venezuelans voted massively in favor of a
Speaker 1: change of direction. Right they when they were allowed to
Speaker 1: have a primary that the government tried to prevent. Well,
Speaker 1: Maria Corina Machalo won with ninety plus percent of the
Speaker 1: vote when she was not allowed to run and she
Speaker 1: anointed somebody to run instead. They voted. This guy won
Speaker 1: with a margin of forty points, and he didn't want
Speaker 1: buy more because they didn't not let us Venizuant's abroad
Speaker 1: vote and they did not let three million young Venezuelans
Speaker 1: to register. Had that happened, we would have won with
Speaker 1: an even larger margin. So Venezuelans are unified politically in
Speaker 1: a new direction. If you allowed Venezuelants to choose, they
Speaker 1: would choose a very competitive legal framework for oil, and
Speaker 1: they would engineer on oil boom. We don't need a
Speaker 1: you know, American help to engineer an oil boom, because
Speaker 1: the world is full of oil companies that would want
Speaker 1: to create back into Venezuela under the right conditions, and
Speaker 1: we have a political majority to create the right conditions.
Speaker 1: But this system that they have described right now, it's
Speaker 1: not workable. It's something that works on one on a
Speaker 1: day to day basis. That they're saying, well, we leave
Speaker 1: the same bad guys that were in power before, the
Speaker 1: guys who are indicted. I mean the guys who are
Speaker 1: in the same indictment as Nicolas Maluru is the Minister
Speaker 1: of Defense and the other one is the Minister of
Speaker 1: the Internal Police. So it's the same guys. We're there
Speaker 1: and they pretend to say, well, we are going to
Speaker 1: tell them what to do and they're going to do
Speaker 1: our bidding. But when they say our bidding, they think
Speaker 1: that they can get a recovery of Venezuela without empowering
Speaker 1: Venezuelan citizens with rights. That's not going to work.
Speaker 3: Professor Issert, do you think if there's a scenario where
Speaker 3: the Trump administration can in fact exert control over this
Speaker 3: government like I think they think they can.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean what they think they can is to
Speaker 1: say either you do what I tell you, or I
Speaker 1: kill you because I have drones. I don't want to
Speaker 1: put boots on the ground. I have drones, I have missiles.
Speaker 1: I can kill you. So you better do what we want.
Speaker 2: But when they interrupt Ricardo, but Paul nailed it with
Speaker 2: that question. What this is about is in is direct
Speaker 2: community violence, whether it's Cuba or Venezuela. I mean President
Speaker 2: Trump in his advocates have to decide if they want
Speaker 2: to participate with people who are violent. How do you
Speaker 2: want in your Venezuela? How do we move forward to
Speaker 2: a constructive end? What's the Houseman process? In January, February,
Speaker 2: in March of this year.
Speaker 1: Well, you want to empower the people who have strategic
Speaker 1: interests that are aligned with you, and that is all
Speaker 1: the Venezuela Democrats. So this idea that you can do
Speaker 1: your thing without having to deal with the organized Venezuelan
Speaker 1: opposition that, under enormously difficult situations, was able to win
Speaker 1: an election. You want, you want to you want to
Speaker 1: empower them to help you. Do you want the strategic
Speaker 1: aligance with them? But you don't want to hear this
Speaker 1: dismissive description of my Akorina Machau as somebody who's not
Speaker 1: respected in Venezuela. I challenge you to mention somebody in
Speaker 1: the world who's more respected than Manrie Akorina Machau. Obviously,
Speaker 1: she's super respected in Venezuela. That's why she can win
Speaker 1: elections in Venezuela. Now that's different from saying she has
Speaker 1: the command over troops.
Speaker 2: We're gonna have share O'Neill with this, Professor Hausman. But
Speaker 2: let me ask you this Viscal. This came up, Paul
Speaker 2: outside of the dining room table. Where does the military
Speaker 2: of Venezuela fit in? I mean, if I look at
Speaker 2: the Philippines and the shift from du Terte to the
Speaker 2: younger Marcos, the military played a part there. Instability is
Speaker 2: the military of your Venezuela stable or unstable?
Speaker 1: The military of Venezuela is led by a narco terrorist
Speaker 1: organization and they're still in power. But below that, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of people who would be willing, who would
Speaker 1: want to go back to a more democratic regime under
Speaker 1: civilian rule, but they cannot. They are not allowed to organize,
Speaker 1: they're being spied by the military secret police, and they're
Speaker 1: being put in prison. They're being tortured. So what we need,
Speaker 1: if if Trump is going to demand something from from
Speaker 1: Delci Rodriguez, is that she she delivered Geosdalo Cabago, the
Speaker 1: head of the police, Vladimir Padrino, the Minister of Defense.
Speaker 1: Those are the heads of the Cartel of the Sons,
Speaker 1: the Cartel de los Soles. They are the narco traffickers.
Speaker 1: They are now in charge of the country and they
Speaker 1: are the ones who yesterday put in prison twelve journalists,
Speaker 1: so that the number of political prisoners in Venezuela is
Speaker 1: going up, not down. Okay, So you want you want
Speaker 1: to fix the country, you need to get rid of
Speaker 1: these leaders, this corrupt, criminal leadership that is in control
Speaker 1: of army and to empower the public of the army
Speaker 1: to go back to civilian rules.
Speaker 2: Paul get one more question from professor.
Speaker 3: Professor, is a scenario where the people of Venezuela rise
Speaker 3: up and force change.
Speaker 1: I think that you know, everybody now is willing to
Speaker 1: give a line of credit because you know, we've tried
Speaker 1: so hard to get rid of Maluro and we weren't
Speaker 1: able to do it on our own. So everybody is
Speaker 1: very happy that that the US was able to get
Speaker 1: rid of Maluro. But and and they're hoping that this
Speaker 1: is the beginning of a good process. But you know,
Speaker 1: the statements of Trump after you know, at Madlago and
Speaker 1: afterwards were extremely disempowering and concerning. They described a vision
Speaker 1: for the future that I do not think it's going
Speaker 1: to work, and I don't think that Venezuelans are going
Speaker 1: to feel that that is there is the right prime.
Speaker 2: Professor Hausman, thank you so much for leading our coverage
Speaker 2: this morning. Ricarda houseman with the Kennedy School, Harvard, and
Speaker 2: of course looked to his piercing essay and the economist