1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: False news is an ever growing virus that threatens to 2 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: corrode the very spirit of democracy. Facebook is front and center. 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: There's more than one problem going on here, right, I 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: mean the election problem, the media problem. That's one class, 5 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: thinks the data privacy is another class. If we are 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: not serious about facts and what's true and what's not, 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:34,959 Speaker 1: if we can't discriminate between serious arguments and propaganda, then 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: we have problems. It is our mission to try to 9 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: help connect everyone around the world and to bring the 10 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: world closer together. Facebook says that they're bringing us together. 11 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Calling Bullshit, the podcast about purpose washing, the 12 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: gap between what companies say they stand for and what 13 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: they actually do, and what they would need to change 14 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: to practice what they preach. I'm your host, Time Ontogue, 15 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: and I've spent over a decade helping companies define what 16 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: they stand for, their purpose and then help them to 17 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: use that purpose to drive transformation throughout their business. Unfortunately, 18 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: at a lot of organizations today, there's still a pretty 19 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 1: wide gap between word. Indeed, that gap has a name. 20 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: We call it bullshit. But, and this is important, we 21 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: know that bullshit is a treatable disease. Because we felt 22 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: countless companies close that gap. So when the bullshit detector 23 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: lights up, we're going to explore things that a company 24 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: should do to fix it. We're devoting two episodes to 25 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: take a hard look at Facebook. Like you, I've been 26 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: thinking a lot about the company since January six one, 27 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,559 Speaker 1: when we will never give up, We will never concede. 28 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: An angry, armed mob stormed the United States Capitol. President 29 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: Trump and others had fed them the big lie that 30 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: the election had been stolen. All of us here today 31 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,119 Speaker 1: do not want to see our election victory stolen by 32 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: a bald and radical left Democrats, and it spread like 33 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: wildfire on social media, including Facebook, ultimately leading to a 34 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: frenzied mob out for blood. Glued to the news, watching 35 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 1: this chaos unfold, I couldn't stop thinking, how in the 36 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: hell did we get here? Watching the Capitol riots that day, 37 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: I could clearly see how much damage the gap between 38 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,679 Speaker 1: ard indeed can actually do. So I decided I had 39 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: to take a harder look at as many of these 40 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: so called purpose led organizations as I could to try 41 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: to understand how many of them are just purpose washing. 42 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: What I discovered led to the creation of this show. 43 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: Each week we feature an organization and invite experts to 44 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: help investigate the potential gaps between what they say they 45 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: stand for and the actions they're actually taking. Will explore 46 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: why these gaps exist and more importantly, what the organization 47 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,279 Speaker 1: needs to do to close them. So let's dig into Facebook, 48 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: starting with a quick rewind back to when Facebook was 49 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: just an online network for college kids. Born in Mark 50 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg's dorm room at Harvard, Facebook took off fast. In 51 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: those early days. The company motto was move fast and 52 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: break things. People are just like too careful. I think 53 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: it's more useful to make things happen and then like 54 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: apologize later than it is to make sure that you 55 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: dot all your eyes now and then like just not 56 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: get stuffed on soon. Facebook was for everyone. It was 57 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: where we all reconnected with old friends and shared pictures 58 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: of our dogs and by if you use Facebook this 59 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: past Monday, you were in good company. You went about 60 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: a billion other people. That means one in seven people 61 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: on Earth. As it grew, some thing's definitely got broken 62 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: and the company came under increased scrutiny, which really reached 63 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: a boil around the presidential election. We're learning more about 64 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: how groups believed to be linked to Russia, used Facebook 65 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: to meddle in the election. Facebook's newest scandal revolves around 66 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: a data analysis firm called Cambridge Analytica. It raises some 67 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: troubling questions, including Facebook's role and targeting voters during so 68 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: in ten, with Americans more polarized than ever before, Mark 69 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg announced a new, kinder, gentler mission. The thing that 70 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: I think we all need to do right now is 71 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: work to bring people closer together. And I think that 72 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: this is actually so important that we're going to change 73 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: Facebook's whole mission as a company in order to focus 74 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: on this. Give people the power to build community and 75 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: bring the world closer together, Which brings us to the 76 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 1: key question of this episode is that all just a 77 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: bunch of bullshit? So get out your BS detector and 78 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: join me on a quest to find out. To get 79 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: to the bottom of this, I talked to two experts 80 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: who spent a lot of time thinking and writing about Facebook. 81 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: First up, sent On a Roll, director of the m 82 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: I T Initiative on the Digital Economy, founding partner of 83 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: Manifest Capital, and author of The Hype Machine. How social 84 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: media disrupts our election, our economy, and our health and 85 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: how we must adapt sit on. Thank you so much 86 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: for joining us, Thanks for having me. I got a 87 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: strong sense from the book that you believe that there 88 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: is both great good that has flowed from the creation 89 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: of social platforms like Facebook, as well as great harm. 90 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: Can you first talk about some of the positive aspects 91 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: that you see. We've got to transcend this debate about 92 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: whether social media is good or evil, because the answer 93 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: is yes. I mean, I call this the promise and 94 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: the peril. So we went through a decade of techno utopianism, 95 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: which was related to this mantra Facebook was going to 96 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: connect the world and provide life saving health information and 97 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: so on, and access to jobs and meaningful human connection. 98 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: Then we went through a decade of no dystopianism, where 99 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: Facebook was destroying democracy and polarizing society and spreading this 100 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: information and so on. The question that we need to 101 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: be asking is how do we achieve the promise and 102 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: avoid the peril? What is the promise? Well, when Nepaul 103 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: had its greatest earthquake in a hundred years, Facebook spun 104 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: up a donate now button and raised more money than 105 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: Europe and the United States combined for relief efforts. Sinnon 106 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: also reminded me that Facebook is crucial to the success 107 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: of important community efforts like the ice Bucket Challenge, which 108 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: raised a quarter of a billion dollars for ALS research, 109 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: and the Black Lives Matter movement, which relies on social 110 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: media to spread awareness and information. Imagine that globally and 111 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: in some countries, Facebook is the entire Internet, like in 112 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: the Philippines and parts of Africa. Imagine the value that's 113 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: being created worldwide. But I'm also realistic about all of 114 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: the peril false news, election integrity, eurose and a privacy. 115 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: Our real challenge now is how do we achieve the 116 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: promise and avoid the peril? Right, you do a great 117 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: job of unpacking the promise. Could you spend another minute 118 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: just unpacking the peril a little bit? Think back to 119 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: the two thousand sixteen US presidential election. Russia sent manipulative 120 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: messages to a hundred and twenty six million people on Facebook, 121 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: twenty million people on Instagram, ten million tweets from accounts 122 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: with six million followers on Twitter. Erosions of privacy, our 123 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: lack of control over our own social networks, live streaming 124 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: of mass murders like the christ Church New Zealand, mass murder, 125 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: lots of bullying and hate speech, potential effects on depression 126 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,479 Speaker 1: and loneliness and isolation, which we're still sorting out scientifically. 127 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: Certainly all of these effects are very important and the 128 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: polarization of society. Does the algorithm polarize us into political 129 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: factions that hate each other? Yeah, in the book you 130 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: use a term filter bubbles. Could you go into what 131 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: you mean by that term. There's two main algorithms that 132 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: run social media. One is the people you May know 133 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: or friend recommendation algorithm that really guides the structure of 134 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: the human social network online and the other the feed 135 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: algorithms that control the flow of information over this network. 136 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: And as these algorithms a connect us to people who 137 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: are like ourselves, who believe what we believe, and be 138 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: feed us information that is more likely to be what 139 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: we already believe in what we want to see. The 140 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: more we get trapped into our own way of thinking 141 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: and the less we have access to diversity. And this 142 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: has been shown in large scale experimental research to polarize 143 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: society and to create affective polarization, which is hatred of 144 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: the other side, that is a cent What I mean 145 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: by filter bubbles being trapped in an information environment where 146 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: you're only seeing things that comport with what you already believe, 147 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: and the algorithms are designed to do this, while the 148 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: algorithms are actually designed to maximize engagement primarily, which means 149 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: to keep you engaged with the platform, because that's what 150 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: the business model runs on. This is how Facebook works. 151 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: It's an attention economy. It needs attention to sell it 152 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: to advertisers and to persuade their users, whether it's to 153 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: support a political campaign, a good cause, or to convince 154 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: you to buy new shoes. Attention is essential to their 155 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: business model. So how do you keep the attention by 156 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: giving people things that either rile them up, that are 157 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: emotionally charged, or that uh comport with what they already believe. 158 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: And so though the algorithms are not necessarily designed to 159 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,199 Speaker 1: separate us by by being designed to maximize our our 160 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: interaction with them, essentially they pull us apart kind of 161 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: as a result of that. Exactly, so, when it comes 162 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: to polarization, we know through experimental evidence that the large 163 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: scale experiments show that the algorithms pull us apart. Now 164 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: is that the soul cause of polarization in America holding 165 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: constant news media like CNN versus Fox holding constant politicians, 166 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: which are themselves polarizing. It's very difficult to know what 167 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: is primarily or solely responsible for polarization, but we do 168 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: know that the algorithms have an important role in that. 169 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: Sinnan says that even though most of us say we 170 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: want truth, what really makes us click is a strong 171 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: emotional reaction. And it's here that my bullshit detector is 172 00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: going off because Facebook knowingly manipulates the user's emotional reaction 173 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: by optimizing the algorithm to reward the inflammatory and the ridiculous. 174 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: You point out that one of the you know, primary 175 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: drivers of of attention is novelty. I think you said 176 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: novelty is the short game and authenticity is the long game, 177 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: And I just wonder if you would talk more about 178 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: that those two ideas. Yeah, absolutely so. We conducted a 179 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: study which was at the time it was published, the 180 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: largest longitudinal study of the spread of true and false 181 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: news online on the cover of Science magazine in eighteen 182 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: and it was a ten year study of the spread 183 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: of verify true and false news stories spreading on Twitter. 184 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: And what we found in that study was false news 185 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: traveled farther, faster, deeper, and more broadly than the truth 186 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: in every category of information. And when we looked into 187 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: why novelty was the primary explanation, people were shocked and 188 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: awed by things that were surprising to them, and false 189 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: news was much more novel, shocking and surprising to them 190 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: than true news. And so in a sense, novelty and 191 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: surprise and shock and awe are engaging in the short term, 192 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: and they are also what we found in that study 193 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:28,719 Speaker 1: was they're also emotionally charged, their blood boiling, their anger inducing. 194 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 1: They are um, you know, emotional, and that gets your attention. 195 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,839 Speaker 1: The only problem with that is that I don't want 196 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: to see that all the time. When I think about 197 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: what I want out of the information that I consume online, 198 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: the types of people that I'm drawn to in terms 199 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: of influencers and so on are people who are authentic, 200 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: are people who are real, and people who are relatable. 201 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: And so what I mean by that is that the 202 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: short term shock and awe, anger inducing, blood boiling, surprising, 203 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: shocking information might be short term engagement spiking, but it's 204 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: not sustainable. And so the true leaders of the new 205 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: social Age are going to be the ones that realize 206 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: that long term shareholder value of their companies really should 207 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: align with society's values, not just the shock and awe 208 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: of the short term spikes and attention. Preach love that. 209 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: So do you think that there's a world in which 210 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: the algorithms could actually be redesigned to do a better 211 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: job of bringing us together? Absolutely? I think that that's 212 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: really part of the promise. Now, two things that are 213 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: essential to achieving that are algorithmic transparency and choice. We 214 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: need to know how these algorithms work. We need to 215 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: give consume humors choices between different algorithms and be upfront 216 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: about which algorithm is going to deliver what type of result. 217 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: So sit on on the Bullshit podcast. We are always 218 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: trying to discover how wide the delta is between word 219 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: and deed in a company. Fundamentally, Facebook says that they 220 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: are bringing us together. So bottom line, how why do 221 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: you think Facebook's delta is? Uh? Currently, their delta is 222 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: very wide. They have espoused a tremendous amount of the 223 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: promise and they haven't paid enough attention to the peril. 224 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: So I do believe that they would prefer to be 225 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: achieving the promise and avoiding the peril but it takes 226 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: effort and it sometimes costs to do that, and I 227 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: think that they haven't invested enough in addressing the problems 228 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: that are being created in society. They're realizing that their 229 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: current path is not sustainable. The question is what is 230 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: the path to closing the delta? Right now, we're at 231 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: a crossroads. We're at a crossroads between truth and falsity. 232 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: We're at a crossroads between meaningful human connection and polarization, 233 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: where at a crossroads between democracy and authoritarianism. And the 234 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: next eighteen to twenty four months are absolutely critical because 235 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: right now the world's attention is on these platforms. We 236 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: have to lean in, we have to make the right decisions, 237 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: and we have to have science under the hood of 238 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: all of these conversations. We need those transparent discussions to 239 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: take place, and we need them to take place now. 240 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: Sitan believes in the promise of Facebook, but because they 241 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: haven't to efficiently addressed the peril, we as a society 242 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: are at a crossroads. How Facebook responds in the next 243 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: eighteen to twenty four months will be crucial for closing 244 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: that gap. And because of this prognosis, I wanted to 245 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: get a second opinion. My next guest, Lucy Green is 246 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: a futurist, strategist and author of the book Silicon States, 247 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: The Power and Politics of Big Tech and What it 248 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: Means for our Future. I first asked her why she 249 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: thought Facebook changed its mission to focus on bringing people 250 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: together in the first place. I think it's partly to 251 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: do with the scale of these companies and how quickly 252 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: they grew. They epitomized, let's say, in the post bubble era, 253 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: this very glamorous idea of startups and hacking and all 254 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,719 Speaker 1: of that stuff. And like a certain point, with the 255 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: scale that Facebook had reached, it becomes disingenuous. You see 256 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: the rise of this idea of purpose branding generally becoming 257 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: a bigger thing. So Facebook is not in a vacuum. 258 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: Here you have Google removing the whole like Adobe evil, 259 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: but sort of also making big claims to solve disease 260 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: and solve aging, and air BMB being about belonging. And 261 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 1: this was led by big tech in a major way. 262 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: The lexicon of brand messaging really shifted during this moment 263 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: to something that there was bigger. In the bigger context, 264 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: you have Facebook that can no longer claim to be 265 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: a plucky startup moving into international markets like India, like Africa, 266 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 1: like South America, and having a sort of reckless image 267 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: is not the way that you do that, right, That 268 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: makes sense. What I did notice in the timeline is 269 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: that right after he made this announcement, or very soon 270 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: after he made this announcement, the Cambridge Analytica scandal broke. 271 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: Do you think that's a coincidence or do you think 272 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: those might be connected. I think it's interesting in Facebook's trajectory, 273 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: they are quite responsive to these major well, depending on 274 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: how they perceived major scandals to be. Like. So for example, 275 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: the previous major big change that you saw in Facebook's 276 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: messaging maybe after move Fast and Break Ship, is after 277 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: that Aaron Sorkin movie comes out, which is hugely unflattering. 278 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: That's right, the social network, Right, so the social network 279 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: comes out and suddenly Mark Zuckerberg presents himself as a 280 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: major philanthropist, Right, so he was sort of using major 281 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: philanthropy as a bomb to negative imagery about him being 282 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: sort of an immature brat who created a sort of 283 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: women face comparison website. So you do see that as 284 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: a sort of pattern, And I wonder also the degree 285 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: to which Lenin might have been to some degree strategic 286 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: about lack of diversity at Facebook. After the Cambridge Analystic scandal, 287 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: I listened to the shareholder call with Facebook, and the 288 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: shareholders were saying, even if this was incompetence or lack 289 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: of foresight, you should be investing more in looking at 290 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:24,239 Speaker 1: potential fallout from policies like this because they could have 291 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: a real knock on effect on the share value of 292 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: this company. Well, they were extremely dismissive of that, but 293 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: it became very clear that Facebook's notion of foresight, be 294 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: its strategic or ethical or whatever. To me, it should 295 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: be all of those things. It's sort of woefully under 296 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: invested in. And I also think structurally is not empowered. 297 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: I speak to people from Facebook often, I have friends 298 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: that work for Facebook, and it's very much the sort 299 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: of yes culture. People don't like it. If you disagree 300 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: or question or debate anything, what would you say their 301 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: real mission is? What are they really trying to do? 302 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: I think they're trying to own more and more aspects 303 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 1: or like the total communication experience in terms of dialogue 304 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:16,199 Speaker 1: and expression, but also the way not just individuals but 305 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: business communications. So they're ramping up their B two B 306 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: communication hugely integrating without much I haven't seen much about 307 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: the privacy of B two B messaging and so on. 308 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: Just trying to own more share of human and business 309 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 1: communication to monetize that through targeted advertising. So just following 310 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: the threat of the Cambridge Analytica scandal, for just a 311 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: second after it broke, there was a consumer backlash hashtag 312 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: delete Facebook. I had a bunch of friends who deleted 313 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: their Facebook accounts at the time, but it didn't seem 314 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: to have much effect. I think there's a real cognitive 315 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:01,479 Speaker 1: dissonance between what is becoming more discussed in the public 316 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: sphere and what is totally embedded in people's consumer behaviors. 317 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: I think people are becoming more and more aware of 318 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 1: the way Amazon treats its employees, but they're still using Amazon. 319 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: We've seen that from clear data points, more and more 320 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: aware of the gig economy and how predatory it is, 321 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: and yet we're all still catching ubers and ordering from 322 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 1: caviare and so on. And I think it's been very 323 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: easy for people to leave Facebook itself. That's where your 324 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: mom hangs out right. It's become more extreme, it's become 325 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: more light wing, but they're requiring much more in every 326 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: acquisition they're acquiring, or for now, you know, they might 327 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: be broken up we saw this week. But like you know, 328 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: it's very easy to leave Facebook, it's very difficult to 329 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: leave WhatsApp. I think by diversifying in the way that 330 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: they have, they've managed to make sure, at least to 331 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: some degree, that they're capturing some part of your life 332 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: in a way that is sort of been escapable. Right, Yeah, 333 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 1: so you can leave Facebook, but you can't ever really 334 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: leave Facebook is sort of the idea, right, They've got 335 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: you surrounded. Yes, losing a few eyeballs during delete Facebook 336 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: didn't seem to slow them down. But I actually thought 337 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: more recently in the wake of the George Floyd murder 338 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:22,239 Speaker 1: in Minnesota, when a new outcry arose from organizations like 339 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: Stop Hate for Profit asking advertisers to boycott Facebook because 340 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: the platform has continued to essentially condone and spread hate speech. 341 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: And a lot of advertisers responded and signed up Big Ones, 342 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: Coca Cola, north Face, ri I, Unilever, like giant Global corporations. 343 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 1: But even that seems to have petered out. At that point. 344 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: I thought maybe they would listen because ad dollars ultimately 345 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, or the thing that 346 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: they care about, but that didn't even seem to have 347 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: an effect. I think it speaks to how much they 348 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: own the consumer experience, right, right, So even advertisers can't 349 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: avoid it. I think advertisers have literally no power in 350 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 1: this scenario. So if you are an advertiser, there isn't 351 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: really much alternative And if you're a CMO an accountable 352 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: for that stuff, I think you just ultimately have to 353 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: vote with your KPI s right, Okay, Lucy, we are 354 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: always trying to discover how wide the delta is between 355 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: word and deed in a company. Facebook says that they're 356 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 1: bringing us together. How wide do you think Facebook's delta is? 357 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it could not be more polar, right, There's 358 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: just this huge, huge gap. Just to put a fine 359 00:24:47,200 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: point on it, Lucy, is Facebook a bullshitter? Yes? Thank you, folks. 360 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: It is time to make the call. Is Facebook really 361 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: giving people the power to build community and bringing the 362 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: world closer together? Based on what I've heard so far, 363 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: I'm calling bullshit? But remember bullshit is a treatable disease. 364 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: So after the diagnosis, we always discussed the cure. So 365 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: I've invited three authorities on the topic to join us 366 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: for a roundtable discussion of the positive actions Facebook should 367 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: take to sort themselves out. This conversation and Facebook's official 368 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 1: BS score right after a quick break, welcome back. Since 369 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: we've concluded that there is a pretty big gap between 370 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: what Facebook says it stands for and what it's actually doing, 371 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 1: what should Mark Zuckerberg and his leadership team do to 372 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: solve it? In this podcast, we don't just curse the darkness. 373 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: We also like to light a few candles, So I've 374 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: assembled a panel of experts and asked them to propose 375 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: some concrete things that Facebook should do to get back 376 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: on track. Joining us, we have sit on it Roll, 377 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: who you have already met and who graciously agreed to 378 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: join us for the group discussion here as well. Thank 379 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: you for that sit On and welcome Thanks for having me, 380 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 1: and we are joined by two new guests. Cameron Nascar, 381 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: Founder and CEO of Cross Media. Founded in two thousand, 382 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: Cross Media is a forward thinking, transparent, highly analytical, totally 383 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: integrated creative media agency with over a hundred and sixty employees. 384 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being here today, Cameron, You're very welcome. Last, 385 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: but certainly not at least, we have Rosemary Ryan, founder 386 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: and co CEO of co Collective and also my business partner. 387 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: Rosemary is a renowned leader, brand builder, and rabble rouser 388 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: in the marketing industry. Thank you for being here, Rose here. 389 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: All right, so let's get right into it. So on, 390 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you to go first. What are some 391 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: things that Facebook could do differently to truly live its 392 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: mission to empower people, to build community and bring us 393 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 1: all closer together. Well, I think it's a good mission 394 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: if we can live up to it, and I think 395 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: there are three things that Facebook could do. Two more 396 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: closely aligned with their mission, and that is moved from 397 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: UH perspective of short term thinking, two more long term thinking. Second, 398 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 1: to listen to their employees, and third to truly embrace transparency. 399 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: And let me tell you what I mean. So right now, 400 00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 1: Facebook's business model UH is based on attention and engagement, 401 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: and what they've focused on so far is very short 402 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: term understandings of attention by trying to maximize engagement. But 403 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: I think the true leaders of the new Social Age 404 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: will be the ones that realize that long term shareholder 405 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: value is maximized by aligning the company's profit incentive with 406 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 1: society's values. Because when you have the short term engagement 407 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: model that creates fake news, that creates bullying, that creates 408 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: hate speech, and that creates crowd action like we saw 409 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: in the Capital riot, as well as stock market actions 410 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: like we saw with game Stop, that that might be 411 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: short term advertising profit maximizing, but that it risks a 412 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: regulatory and public opinion backlash that is uh, not good 413 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: for Facebook's bottom line in the long term. They should 414 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: give consumers choice between algorithms one through ten while describing 415 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: how all of them work, and have a drop down 416 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: menu on my feed that says, I want the more 417 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: diversity algorithm, or I want the more such and such algorithm, 418 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: which with much more background on how all of them work. 419 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,959 Speaker 1: And they need to have much more comprehensive, transparent and precise, 420 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: detailed content moderation policies they currently don't have that. The 421 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,719 Speaker 1: one last thing I'll say is they're going to have 422 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: to thread what I call the transparency paradox, which is 423 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: that we have been asking them to be simultaneously more transparent, 424 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: oh and by the way, more secure at the same time, 425 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: and the way they do that is with technical and 426 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: policy oriented approaches like differential privacy, which allows you to 427 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: reveal data without revealing individuals private information, so that you 428 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: can be more transparent and more secure at the same time. 429 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: Thank you, Sonan Rosemary. What are your thoughts on ways 430 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: that Facebook might better do their story? So, I guess 431 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: the first thing I always say is that I think 432 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: they have an excellent story and excellent purpose, one that 433 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: is not just critical for them to fulfill, but I 434 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: think one that we as a world a community needs 435 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: to kind of get behind. I think they now need 436 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: to step back, slow down, and fix things because it 437 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: can no longer be about growth for growth sake, but 438 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: really growth in service of community, and so that I 439 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: think involves not just doing the odd thing in service 440 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: of this, but really taking stop, focusing and investing their 441 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: time their considerable talent. They have some of the best 442 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: talent in the world. For me, there are two key 443 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: issues that I think that they need to tackle. The 444 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: first is the issue of polarization, and the second is 445 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: the issue of misinformation. They talk a lot about empowering people, 446 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: giving people the power. They use people's data as a 447 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: way to kind of sell advertising, but they don't actually 448 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: share it with the people that they're taking it from. 449 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: So we are able to give people the tools to 450 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: see what they're engaging with. It might actually help them 451 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: be more mindful and behave slightly differently. So you know, 452 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:18,959 Speaker 1: one thought is that they could share a used report 453 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: at the end of each week that shows your exposure 454 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: to different types of content. So think about the kind 455 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: of Apple model raising your awareness of what you're seeing, 456 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: how much time you're spending with it, with conspiracy theories, 457 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: with poppy content, with fake news, with family news, you 458 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: name it. Maybe show how much of that content is 459 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,959 Speaker 1: labeled fake or untrue when we can talk about how 460 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: we actually get to that, how much is negative in 461 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: tone versus positive. There are lots of different ways to 462 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: kind of break down your data they have all of it. 463 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: Once they have that, they can then maybe tie that 464 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: to some kind of accountability to help you maybe watch 465 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: less hate content, lower your usage on things that are 466 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: more conspiracy driven, give people actual tips on how to 467 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: kind of navigate the content they're using. I mean, there's 468 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: a lot of different apps right now that use nudges 469 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: as a way to encourage more healthy behavior, So how 470 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: can they use more kind of nudges on the platform, 471 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: and then maybe taking it one step further and rather 472 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: than just as you should report that you get every week, 473 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: actually building it into the platform and your usage in 474 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: real time, and I think last, but not least, all 475 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: of that data, then they should be sharing it with 476 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: the world. Make it global, show everybody what's actually really happening. Yeah, 477 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,719 Speaker 1: I love it. Okay, Cameron, bring us on. Let's hear 478 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: a few thoughts from you and then we can get 479 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: into the discussion. Well, I'm in the camp probably that 480 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: it maybe it's too late for Facebook to change, and 481 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: if they were to change, then really I think a 482 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: rewrite of the mission entirely is in order. And I 483 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: think trying to bring the world together as bold and 484 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: its ambitious, but to bit nay even what's led to 485 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: some of the issues that they have today, and I 486 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: would bring it down to a much simpler version. I 487 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: felt compelled to sort of rewrite it, and it goes 488 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: something like this. It's more of a purpose statement. Our 489 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: purpose is to make it easy for people to connect. 490 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: Our duty is to protect your privacy. You have a 491 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: choice to join our community. The platform is free for 492 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: you to use. If you join, you are allowing Facebook 493 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: and your friends to see whatever you share about yourself. 494 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: You can control who sees your information, and you should 495 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: manage your settings the way you might manage anything extremely 496 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: important to you, like your finances, your car, or your house. 497 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: We strive to do the right thing. As a technology company, 498 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: we are always in beta, and as a result, we 499 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: sometimes get things wrong when we make a mistake. We 500 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: vowed to be open, transparent, and communicative to you about 501 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: exactly what is happening and the potential impact to you. 502 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: And I think if you turn the mission statement a 503 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: little bit on its head and create more purpose behind 504 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: what you're actually aiming to do, connect and at the 505 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: same time protect the privacy of its users. But I 506 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: think a rewrite of the mission is in complete order. Alright, 507 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: some great ideas, So, non, I loved several of the 508 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: things that you talked about their you know, in particular 509 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: the move from short term thinking to long term thinking. 510 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: It sounds like I believe it's sort of a fantasy 511 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 1: that they are currently maximizing shareholder value, because what they're 512 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: doing today is threatening shareholder value by thinking short term 513 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: and not taking into consideration stakeholders. How do we convince 514 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 1: them of that, you know, because in a way you 515 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: have to convince a publicly traded company to forego some 516 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: short term income in in service of thinking longer term. 517 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: That's a hard thing. Yeah, I have some thoughts on that. 518 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: So in my book, I describe four levers that we 519 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: have to sort of fix the social media crisis that 520 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,720 Speaker 1: we find ourselves in. And those lovers are money, code, norms, 521 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: and laws. Money is the business models of the platforms 522 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 1: that govern the incentives for how the advertisers and the 523 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: consumers behave on the platforms. Code is the way that 524 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: the platforms and the algorithms are designed. Norms is how 525 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: we adopt and use and espouse a zeitgeist about what 526 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: we think about social media in society. And laws of 527 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: course a regulation. So money and code is under the 528 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: purview of the platforms in a sense. And so in 529 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: terms of norms, things like the Delete Facebook movement and 530 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: the stop Hate for Profit movement express a public sentiment 531 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: about the unhappiness that people have about the direction that 532 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 1: Facebook has taken. The employees whistleblowing and leaving in droves 533 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: express an opinion from the inside about how happy employees 534 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: are with the direction that Facebook has taken, that pressure 535 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: needs to continue and be stepped up. Secondly, I think 536 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: we can make some meaningful inroads from the perspective of regulation. 537 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 1: So the reason that Facebook doesn't have any sentive to 538 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: change is because it doesn't have competition, and so it 539 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: can continue doing what it's doing, and it's short term 540 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: view of profits is profit maximizing. People can't leave Facebook 541 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: easily because they're technically locked in because their network effects 542 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: and so on. We need to look at regulation. When 543 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: I say that, people immediately think, oh, you mean breakup Facebook, 544 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: But that's not what I mean. The social media economy 545 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: runs on network effects, which means that the value of 546 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: a platform is a function of how big it is. 547 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: And in markets that run on network effects, they tend 548 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: toward market concentration, they tend towards monopoly. So if you 549 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,760 Speaker 1: break up Facebook, it's just going to tip the next 550 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: Facebook like company into market dominance. What we need is 551 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 1: structural reforms of the social media economy itself. We need 552 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: to be able to connect across platforms that will preserve 553 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: the value created in the network effects and allow me 554 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: to switch from one platform to another and will keep 555 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: my social network. That will enable us to vote with 556 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: our feet when we don't like the policies or privacy 557 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: policies of a given platform, and that kind of switching 558 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: is what's going to really enable competition. I was just 559 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,760 Speaker 1: going to jump in and say that I think people 560 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: already are voting with their feet. Facebook is becoming an 561 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: increasingly toxic environment, and the audience that they have there 562 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: is not actually the most desirable audience for short term 563 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: growth in terms of attracting advertisers. Younger generations have already 564 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: decided that that is not a place that they want 565 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 1: to spend their time, and new platforms like TikTok, etcetera 566 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: starting to kind of fill that space. So I think 567 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: long term growth, I think there's some meat short term 568 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: growth issues that they're probably starting to feel that will 569 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: only increase if they don't start to address some of 570 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: the issues. And Cameron, I see you nodding there. I'd 571 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 1: love to hear your perspective, because I mean, you're at 572 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: that cold face with clients, like having them decide whether 573 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: or not to invest in Facebook or not. What kind 574 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 1: of conversations are you having with them? Yeah, it runs 575 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: the gamut. Most clients understand the value Facebook can bring, 576 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,320 Speaker 1: but they're very, very wary, like all of us are. 577 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,280 Speaker 1: And I think the idea competition is starting to emerge, 578 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: and I think some of the things you're seeing with 579 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,759 Speaker 1: Apple iOS fourteen and the limiting of data access are 580 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,720 Speaker 1: really going to start to chip away at Facebook's power 581 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: and make it probably less of a tool for advertisers 582 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: to extract certain kinds of data and more of a 583 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 1: general advertising platform to do what advertising is intended to do, 584 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 1: which is helped move minds and behaviors and not manipulate. 585 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: On the idea of regulation that I'd like to go 586 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: back to that for one second, because I completely agree 587 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: there needs to be some sort of regulatory body, and frankly, 588 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: i'd like to see the founders and the owners of 589 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: these platforms step up and create a council of self 590 00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,839 Speaker 1: regulation amongst themselves and decide that they're going to put 591 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: some standards and practices in place. You know, not unlike 592 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: the alcohol industry, where you have market messaging around drinking responsibly, 593 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: bringing full transparency and how they operate. But right now, 594 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: because of Facebook and other social platforms are technologies or platforms, 595 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: and they're not media companies and they're not consumer brands. 596 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: They've completely skirted all regulation that is typically applied to 597 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: other industry. You know, you would never send you know, 598 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: food into a market that was spoiled. The FDA would 599 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: never allow that, the same way you would never put 600 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: a toy in a kid's hand that could explode in 601 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: their face. And essentially, Facebook and social platforms have been 602 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 1: allowed to take data and use that in an unintended 603 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,400 Speaker 1: harmful way. I would like to see some self regulation 604 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: occur first before the government would step in. And if 605 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: they can't, then I really do feel the government needs 606 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: to decide once and for all that for social platforms, right, 607 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: there is a way to operate and behave that is 608 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 1: mandated by law. Yeah, they are media platforms. They are. 609 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: They've been arguing that that they're not for yet, but 610 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,320 Speaker 1: that's exactly what they are. Yeah. I wish that Facebook 611 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,760 Speaker 1: would come out and just say they are a media platform. 612 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,240 Speaker 1: But unfortunately they don't have writers, they don't have editors, 613 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: and so they don't have that kind of code of 614 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,240 Speaker 1: ethics that most media abide by, at least good trusted 615 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: media bye bye. Right, so users can say and do 616 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: whatever they want, and Facebook has completely washed their hands 617 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,800 Speaker 1: of any any kind of obligation around editing what is 618 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,320 Speaker 1: on the platform, or what kind of code of ethics 619 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 1: should be used on the platform. And it would be 620 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 1: great if they consider themselves a media brand, but a 621 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,760 Speaker 1: media company. Sorry, but they simply don't. Rosemary, you talked 622 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,800 Speaker 1: about this idea of a daily report that just reflects 623 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: back to you your usage, what you've been exposed to, 624 00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:01,319 Speaker 1: and why why would Facebook not do that today? Why 625 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 1: does that not exist? I think it would cost the 626 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: money and they would have to expose people to just 627 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: how much of the data they probably have on them. 628 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: To your point about not being a media company, Cameron, 629 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 1: I don't think they want to kind of feel like 630 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: they're stepping in between people and how they're communicating on 631 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,279 Speaker 1: the platform. Although I think it's it's a moral obligation 632 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: for them to help people understand this is a new tool. 633 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 1: People would argue that people's brains are being rewired. I 634 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: think it is on them to help as they are 635 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,279 Speaker 1: now understand what kind of consequences that they are that 636 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,439 Speaker 1: people themselves get to see it. And I think also 637 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: if you make it more personal so that I personally 638 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 1: understand what I'm engaging with, I become much more intentful 639 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: about what I do moving forward, So I don't know, 640 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 1: perhaps they think you will slow down that engagement, yeah, 641 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 1: or expose things that they don't want exposed to know. 642 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 1: And you had a similar idea, The idea of a 643 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 1: drop down that allows me to choose the algorithms that 644 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: I want to maximize for diversity of thought or whatever 645 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 1: else that I actually want to be exposed to. I 646 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,759 Speaker 1: think is awesome, Like why would they not do that? 647 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 1: If you combine Rosemary's idea with this idea of choice 648 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:19,359 Speaker 1: and algorithmic transparency, if you gave users feedback about the 649 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,239 Speaker 1: choices that they've been making, and then gave them those 650 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,839 Speaker 1: choices as well as transparency around those choices, you might 651 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 1: see them making healthy choices rather than unhealthy choices. Basically, 652 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,759 Speaker 1: you'd have a drop down menu of algorithm one, two, 653 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: and three, and then there would be sort of published 654 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:42,719 Speaker 1: papers written by non Facebook employees, scientists, researchers, academics, experts 655 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,799 Speaker 1: who were given access and reported back about what they 656 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,439 Speaker 1: found from an objective standpoint about how each of these 657 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 1: algorithms behave. And this is part of the also the 658 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,359 Speaker 1: movement around healthy eating, where you sort of you put 659 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: up a digital mirror in front of people that reflects 660 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: back their choices and behaviors to them, and then they 661 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 1: actually that is a quote unquote nudge as as Rosemary 662 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,719 Speaker 1: was talking about to behave in more healthy ways to 663 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 1: create a more healthy communications ecosystem, I could envision a 664 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,200 Speaker 1: hundred percent opt in model where maybe you don't even 665 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,759 Speaker 1: need to see the algorithm, but just inform you know, 666 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,799 Speaker 1: Facebook and advertisers what you're interested in and when you're 667 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:33,400 Speaker 1: interested in it, and then have brands actually pay customers 668 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:37,880 Speaker 1: for their data. Now that will cause Facebook money, but 669 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,319 Speaker 1: the idea of control and incentive aligned with transparency I 670 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:46,239 Speaker 1: think could be a game changer for Facebook, any platform, 671 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 1: and digital advertising as a whole. So I want to 672 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 1: um shift gears for a second and talk about what 673 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,080 Speaker 1: happens if Facebook decides not to do any of this 674 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,759 Speaker 1: and to continue need to proceed whistling past the graveyard 675 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: and pretending everything is fine. So if they refuse to 676 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,919 Speaker 1: change the way they're operating today, what would we say 677 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 1: would be a better way of describing what Facebook is 678 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,239 Speaker 1: truly up to today? So, Rosemary, if you were going 679 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,759 Speaker 1: to rewrite Facebook's mission to align with the way that 680 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:25,839 Speaker 1: they actually behave. Right now, what would you say? I mean? 681 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: I think I would just abbreviate it, so I said, 682 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,280 Speaker 1: it's give people the power to build community and support 683 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:36,799 Speaker 1: their own world view and damn everybody else. Right, that's 684 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,200 Speaker 1: the mission that currently on. To capture and hold the 685 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,040 Speaker 1: attention of the world in service of advertisers everywhere. Would 686 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: be another way to explain what they're doing, and maybe 687 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,360 Speaker 1: a meaner way to put it would be to capture 688 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 1: and hold your attention to extract the maximum amount of 689 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 1: your personal data in service of any company, organization, or 690 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 1: individual who is able to pay us for it. It's 691 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,480 Speaker 1: pretty accurate. Part of the reason why they came up 692 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,719 Speaker 1: with this mission statement, I imagine it's because they realized 693 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,840 Speaker 1: the unintended consequences of some of what they had they've built, 694 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,960 Speaker 1: and decided they had to take a step back and 695 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: really think through what their responsibility was and what their 696 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,040 Speaker 1: real intention was. So I think they did the work 697 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,120 Speaker 1: of getting to this, they don't seem to have done 698 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,279 Speaker 1: the work of actually making it real. Going back to 699 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 1: story doing excellent story one that we all want to 700 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,839 Speaker 1: get behind. I think one of their employees, to Sin's point, 701 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,200 Speaker 1: not to get behind. I think most of the users 702 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,080 Speaker 1: on their platform want to get behind. Certainly, I think 703 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: the advertisers would like to get behind, but they have 704 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 1: not put in the energy and the effort to really 705 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: make it a reality. I think Mark Zupperberg, when he 706 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,400 Speaker 1: sets his mind to something, can do pretty much anything. 707 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,320 Speaker 1: He's got brilliant people surrounded by actually some lovely people 708 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: that work for him. So what is stopping them actually 709 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,719 Speaker 1: taking this very powerful and compelling mission and putting it 710 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,480 Speaker 1: to work. That's the question. I don't I'm kind of confused, 711 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:00,839 Speaker 1: and I don't think it's just economy. They've got a 712 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,719 Speaker 1: ton of money. I think this notion of connecting the 713 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,960 Speaker 1: world is aspirational, and I agree they are just not 714 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:11,680 Speaker 1: aspiring hard enough to get there. I also don't really 715 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,120 Speaker 1: understand what prevents them, because I think that they could 716 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:22,160 Speaker 1: be enormously financially successful and still truly aspire to achieve 717 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,759 Speaker 1: that mission. I've heard you talk about this, and non 718 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,680 Speaker 1: they're so focused on the likes and the shares that 719 00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,440 Speaker 1: then obviously are what they monetize, both in the social 720 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,320 Speaker 1: sense and in the advertising sense, that everything in the 721 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,080 Speaker 1: organization points not to the mission but to those metrics. 722 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,440 Speaker 1: And so the mission doesn't stand higher than the metrics. 723 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,440 Speaker 1: But if they really took a hard look at the 724 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:50,040 Speaker 1: business and said we could diversify and offer pretty unique 725 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,920 Speaker 1: features and products to certain segments, then I think they 726 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,919 Speaker 1: could start to think about themselves a bit differently than 727 00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:02,640 Speaker 1: just focusing on those two metric extent drive advertising. I 728 00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 1: think that's a really really good point. It brings up 729 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 1: a pet peeve of mine. I gotta say, which is 730 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,799 Speaker 1: just the metaphorical concept of the like button? Okay, the 731 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,959 Speaker 1: like button? What is the like button? It says what 732 00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 1: we prioritize most is popularity. The more people like something, 733 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,759 Speaker 1: the more valuable it is on our platform. And I've 734 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:31,200 Speaker 1: always thought about that like button because it's so arbitrary, arbitrary. 735 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:35,360 Speaker 1: So let me give you a different hypothetical reality. What 736 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,120 Speaker 1: if there was a a knowledge button, or a truth button, 737 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:43,400 Speaker 1: or a this taught me something button, or a wellness button. 738 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,719 Speaker 1: So right now, we're all incentivized to be as popular 739 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,279 Speaker 1: as we possibly can to get the most likes. What 740 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,319 Speaker 1: if we got the most truths or the most he 741 00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:59,319 Speaker 1: taught me some things? Would we then be incentivized to 742 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,799 Speaker 1: teach people things and to bring truth to the discussion 743 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:06,080 Speaker 1: and to encourage wellness. And if that was the case, 744 00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:10,400 Speaker 1: then could we make the mission and the metrics match 745 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 1: by designing the platforms to have metrics that match the mission. 746 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:18,839 Speaker 1: I love that and I think that would really help 747 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:23,040 Speaker 1: with true community buildings, really bringing people together. That's awesome. 748 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,719 Speaker 1: The number one thing that I wrote down in terms 749 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:31,400 Speaker 1: of what Facebook could do to change their behavior entirely 750 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,360 Speaker 1: and people's behavior has removed the like button, but I 751 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,400 Speaker 1: didn't have an answer for what would replace the like button. 752 00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,760 Speaker 1: And I think a series of diagnostics based on truth 753 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:47,040 Speaker 1: and real opinion would open it up into a whole 754 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 1: new stratosphere in terms of understanding what people really feel 755 00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: and think. That's actually a useful tool. Okay, folks solved it. 756 00:48:57,719 --> 00:48:59,239 Speaker 1: Does that mean you're not going to find any time 757 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,960 Speaker 1: you get to keep your job to rose, which you 758 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:08,919 Speaker 1: know was unexpected outcome, but I'll go with it. Thank you, everybody. 759 00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,400 Speaker 1: I'd like to end the show today by giving Facebook 760 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:22,960 Speaker 1: an official BS score. On this show, BS exists on 761 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,400 Speaker 1: a scale from zero to one hundred, zero being the 762 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,960 Speaker 1: best zero bullshit and a hundred being the worst total BS. 763 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,560 Speaker 1: It's pretty obvious that Facebook isn't living up to their 764 00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,399 Speaker 1: mission of giving people the power to build community and 765 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,960 Speaker 1: bringing the world closer together. So I'm giving them a 766 00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:46,879 Speaker 1: BS score of seventy two. That's pretty high. If you disagree, 767 00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:51,560 Speaker 1: visit our website Calling Bullshit Podcast dot com to weigh 768 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,840 Speaker 1: in with your own score. We'll also track their behavior 769 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,520 Speaker 1: over time to see if they can bring that score down. 770 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,080 Speaker 1: You'll also be able to see where Facebook ranks on 771 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,680 Speaker 1: BS compared to other companies we feature on this show. 772 00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,200 Speaker 1: And if you're running a purpose led business or you're 773 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,920 Speaker 1: thinking of beginning the journey of transformation to become one, 774 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:17,239 Speaker 1: here are three things you should take away from this episode. One, 775 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,200 Speaker 1: Because young consumers are demanding it, there's a lot of 776 00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:24,720 Speaker 1: pressure today on business leaders to declare the positive purpose 777 00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:28,759 Speaker 1: that they're pursuing. But your purpose isn't something you use 778 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,560 Speaker 1: for a press release and then stick it in a drawer. 779 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:36,279 Speaker 1: In Facebook's case, bringing the world closer together is a 780 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,440 Speaker 1: great purpose. March just needs to prove that he really 781 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,960 Speaker 1: means it, which brings us to take away number two. 782 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:47,000 Speaker 1: Once you've aligned on your purpose, it's all about action. 783 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,600 Speaker 1: You've talked today about a number of actions Facebook could take, 784 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,160 Speaker 1: actions like giving people a daily report on what content 785 00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:58,040 Speaker 1: they've been exposed to by the algorithm and why, or 786 00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,759 Speaker 1: giving people choice drop down menu that allows you to 787 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,319 Speaker 1: choose the kind of content you want to see so 788 00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,920 Speaker 1: you can tune the platform to your interests. The actions 789 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,960 Speaker 1: for your company will undoubtedly be different. The point is 790 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,640 Speaker 1: action is a vital part of being purpose led, and three, 791 00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:23,680 Speaker 1: transparency is key. No company is perfect, that's okay. A 792 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,640 Speaker 1: good purpose should articulate a vision that the company has 793 00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:30,879 Speaker 1: to work toward over time. As a leader, you need 794 00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:34,440 Speaker 1: to be honest about where you're succeeding and where you're failing. 795 00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:40,040 Speaker 1: That builds trust. In Facebook's case, their leadership needs to 796 00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:43,000 Speaker 1: do a much better job of letting us know what 797 00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:48,080 Speaker 1: they're really committed to doing to change the platform. Speaking 798 00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:51,680 Speaker 1: of which, Mark Zuckerberg, if you ever want to come 799 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,279 Speaker 1: on our show to discuss any of these ideas or 800 00:51:54,320 --> 00:52:07,040 Speaker 1: any other aspects of today's episode, you have an open invitation. Okay, 801 00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:13,160 Speaker 1: So that was our original ending back in August, but Facebook, 802 00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:16,720 Speaker 1: true to form, kept right on moving fast and breaking things, 803 00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:21,560 Speaker 1: which put them right back in the news. Facebook whistle blow. 804 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 1: I don't know the thing. I saw Facebook over and 805 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:26,680 Speaker 1: over again was there were conflicts of interest between what 806 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:28,640 Speaker 1: was good for the public and what was good for 807 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,919 Speaker 1: face Ablations from a former Facebook executive about Facebook has 808 00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,960 Speaker 1: known for years that Instagram is toxling. Way we can 809 00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,080 Speaker 1: move forward and healed, Facebook, as we first sept in 810 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,959 Speaker 1: the social media giant, knew it's absolutely the way we'll 811 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,960 Speaker 1: have reconciliation and we can move forward is by first 812 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:51,800 Speaker 1: being honest and declaring world bankruptcy, whistleblower allegations, lawsuits, Wall 813 00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,000 Speaker 1: Street Journal revelations, and right in the middle of all 814 00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:59,520 Speaker 1: of that the name changed to Meta. The bs definitely 815 00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,800 Speaker 1: got deeper, and we decided we had to keep digging. 816 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,120 Speaker 1: So please join me for episode two, where I speak 817 00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,920 Speaker 1: with Ramas Screeny Vasan, an engineer working in the place 818 00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:14,759 Speaker 1: where technology and humanity intersect. We'll give Facebook a new 819 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:18,800 Speaker 1: score and as ever, try to find a few more 820 00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:23,120 Speaker 1: candles to light. I'm sure there's a candle in here somewhere. 821 00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:35,160 Speaker 1: Thanks to our guest today, Sinana Roll, Lucy Green, Cameron Nascar, 822 00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:39,279 Speaker 1: and Rosemary Ryan. You can find all of them ironically 823 00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:43,000 Speaker 1: on social media. We've got all their handles on our website, 824 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:47,480 Speaker 1: Calling Bullshit podcast dot com. If you have ideas for 825 00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:51,440 Speaker 1: companies or organizations we should consider for future episodes. You 826 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,200 Speaker 1: can submit them on the site too, and check out 827 00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:58,040 Speaker 1: San's book The Hype Machine, How social media disrupts our elections, 828 00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,200 Speaker 1: our economy, and our health and how we must adapt, 829 00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:05,440 Speaker 1: and Lucy's book Silicon States, the power and politics of 830 00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,800 Speaker 1: big Tech and what it means for our future. If 831 00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:12,319 Speaker 1: this discussion hit the made Me Think button for you, 832 00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:16,000 Speaker 1: subscribe to the Calling Bullshit podcast on the I Heart 833 00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:20,359 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 834 00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:27,560 Speaker 1: Thanks to our production team Susie Armitage, Hannah Beal, Amanda Ginsburg, 835 00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:33,200 Speaker 1: Andy Kim, d s Moss, Mikaela Reid, Lena Beck, Cilisen, 836 00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:39,879 Speaker 1: Jess Benton, and Basil Soaper. Calling Bullshit was created by 837 00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,920 Speaker 1: co Collective and is hosted by Me Time Onto You. 838 00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:45,720 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening,