WEBVTT - Presenting Prodigy: The Polgar Sisters 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:10.320 Hijack. It's a productive of I heart radio. Prodigies are 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:14.600 children that display rapid skill acquisition in a domain. A 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:19.080 domain is any specific area of activity or knowledge, like tennis, 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:26.960 or writing, or psychology or chess. Chess is a domain 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:32.600 where mastery is associated with a superior intellect. It's incredibly strategic. 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:35.839 Yet it's simple enough that a child can play. But 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:45.080 some children do more than just play. My name is 0:00:45.120 --> 0:01:02.200 Lowell Balante, and this is prodigy. If you're like me, 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:05.280 you believe that a prodigy is a rare combination of 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:09.759 genetic talent, environment and effort. But some people have made 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:12.640 a lot of money selling the idea that talent doesn't 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:16.520 exist and that the driving force behind expert performance is 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:20.280 just effort. They also call it hard work or practice. 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:24.160 A common way they introduced this idea is by using 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:28.240 the example of the Polgar sisters. Here is their story. 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:37.600 Before his children were even conceived, Laslow Polgar believed they 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:43.000 would be prodigies. Laslow is a Hungarian educational psychologist born 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:46.960 in nineteen forty six. As a university student, he studied 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:50.160 intelligence and came to the conclusion that people who were 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:55.400 recognized as geniuses had early introduction to their domain. Laslow 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.800 is quoted as saying, it's very interesting because when I 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:01.400 looked at the life stories of geniuses, I found the 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.200 same thing. They all started at a very young age 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:09.640 and studied intensively. Mozart is a classic example because his 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:12.720 father was a music teacher. Mozart began learning to play 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:16.520 the piano at three years old. He developed perfect pitch 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.880 and became so famous that his name is interchangeable. A genius. 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:25.720 So Laslow theorized that early specialized education is far more 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:29.120 important than talent. He concluded that introduction should begin at 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:32.400 three years old and intensive education should begin at six. 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.360 Laslow was so confident that he became determined to prove 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.200 that he could turn any healthy newborn into a genius, 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:42.040 and he decided he would do it with his own children. 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:54.000 Laslo began courting the daughter of a family friend. She 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.760 was a Ukrainian foreign language teacher named Clara. They wrote 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:00.840 to each other often, and in the letters Blow disclosed 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:05.000 his plan. Claire thought he was a little strange, but 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.680 became convinced, and after a year and a half he proposed. 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:11.880 Laslow and Claire married and had a daughter they named Susan. 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.840 They considered various topics for Susan to specialize in, originally 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:19.360 considering mathematics and language, But one day the toddler found 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:25.480 a chessboard in a cabinet and became intensely curious. Years later, 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:28.200 Susan would say he could have put us in any field, 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:31.400 but it was I who chose chess. I liked the chessmen. 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:36.720 They were toys for me. Here's a quick introduction to 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:43.320 the game of chess. The board is a square made 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:46.600 up of sixty four smaller squares. Each player has sixteen 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:49.800 pieces which control one fourth of the board. Those pieces 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:53.320 include six different types, made up of eight pawns, two rooks, 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:58.160 two nights, to bishops, one queen, and one king. Players 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.120 alternate turns with the goal of apping their opponents king. 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.680 Once the game begins and each player makes their opening move, 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:07.920 there are now four hundred different possibilities for their next move. 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:12.240 After their second move, they're over seventy two. After three 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:16.000 moves there are nine million, and after four moves they're 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:24.000 over three eighteen billion. To put this in perspective, the 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.839 observable universe is estimated to have approximately ten to the 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:30.760 eighty atoms. That's a ten with eight zeros after it. 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:34.200 The number of possible permutations of chess is estimated to 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:37.280 be ten to the one twenty three, so the quantity 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:40.520 of possible games is nearly unlimited. This is why chess, 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:48.200 while easy to learn the basics, has infinite layers. Chess, 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:58.039 Clara said, is objective and easy to measure. Chess is 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:00.719 what's known as a zero sum game, which means the 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:04.680 winner takes rating points from the loser. Those points out 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:06.839 up to your rating in what's known as an Elo 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:11.039 rating system. In an Elo rating system, two equally rated 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:13.960 players facing off should win an equal number of times, 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.800 thus winning and losing an equal amount of points. But 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:20.960 if a lower rated player defeats a higher rated player, 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:23.960 then they're awarded more points than if a higher rated 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:27.200 player defeats a lower rated player over the course of 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:29.719 many games. This system is designed to give players a 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:34.600 rating consistent with their skill level. Laslow only had an 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:37.200 amateur understanding of the game, so how would he turn 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:44.800 his children into grand master level players. He published a 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:48.200 book in nine titled Raise a Genius, where he discusses 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:50.960 his method. The first thing he states is that there 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:53.360 is no secret to his system. It's based on the 0:05:53.400 --> 0:06:01.159 following standard educational concepts. You can't achieve results through coercion. 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:05.840 Too much severity will diminish the child's interest. Allow the 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.200 child to win sometimes so they are given the feeling 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:12.000 of success. Play with a handicap, then gradually reduce it 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:16.120 as the student becomes better. The training must be age appropriate. 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:20.560 Use games to awaken interest, because students master subjects much 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:27.240 more quickly when they are interested. So he gradually taught 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:30.360 Susan the basics of chess one concept at a time, 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:33.680 and kept her interested by making smaller games out of it. 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:39.160 The first thing he did was teacher the names of 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.560 the squares using pieces of graph paper. Since chess consists 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:44.680 of an eight by eight square grid, the row of 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:48.400 squares facing the player are labeled alphabetically A through H, 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:51.599 and the perpendicular squares are numbered one through eight. Laslow 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.560 gives Susan a location B three, for example, and she 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:56.960 would have to mark it with an X. Next, he 0:06:57.040 --> 0:06:59.599 taught her the colors of the squares, which alternate between 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.520 black and white. After Susan learned the layout of the board, 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.960 he introduced the simplest piece, the pawn. They would play 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.400 pawn wars with the goal of reaching their opponents baseline. 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:12.200 Then he introduced the next piece, and so on and 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:16.320 so forth. Mastering the basics is a critical concept where 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:20.840 Laslow believes standard education fail students. Without it, you cannot 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:28.200 master more complicated subjects. My father believes that innate talent 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:34.680 is nothing, that success is hard work. I agree with him. 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:42.160 Susan Polgar. Susan is the firstborn child of Laslow and 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.600 Clara Polgar. She played her first major tournament in an 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:49.120 eleven and under Championship at only four years old and 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.440 dominated with a perfect ten and no score. The media 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.239 labeled her a prodigy, but there were many who were critical. 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:58.800 They believed little girls should play with dolls, not chessboards 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:03.640 and wooden pieces. At six years old, it was time 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:06.040 for her to go to school. Her parents decided that 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:09.600 formal education would be more harmful than helpful and decided 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:12.400 to apply for a permit to homeschool Susan. It was 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:15.960 a very difficult process, but they did eventually receive permission. 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.680 The following five years were spent studying chess to improve 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:25.360 tactical and calculation skills. She read books, studied famous grandmaster games, 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:35.640 learned to play blindfolded and practiced her endgame. When Susan 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:39.320 was twelve, she won the sixteen and Underworld Championship. By 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:42.120 age fifteen, she was the number one ranked female chess 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:44.440 player in the world and remained in the top three 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:48.800 for the next twenty three years. She became the first 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:51.760 woman in history to qualify for the men's World Championship. 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:54.800 In nights one, she became the first woman in history 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:58.120 to achieve the men's Grand Master title. In two thousand three, 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:00.080 she became the first woman to win the USO and 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:03.000 Blitz Championship. She went on to win it again in 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:06.199 two thousand five and two thousand six. She became the 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:08.600 first World champion in history to win the Triple Crown, 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:13.320 which consists of rapid, blitz, A and classical chess all total. 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:20.000 She is a five time Olympic champion. Susan was not 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.680 an only child, and when Sophia was born in nineteen 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:29.319 seventy four, chess was already taken seriously at home. When 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.160 Sophia was five years old, she won the Hungarian Girls 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:34.960 eleven and Under Championship. She won the gold medal in 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.600 the Under fourteen Girls World Chess Championship at age eleven, 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.160 when Sophia was fourteen, while playing in an open tournament 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:45.120 in Rome, she delivered one of the strongest chess performances 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:49.280 ever recorded, defeating four grand master level opponents and scoring 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:52.080 an ELO rating of two thousand, eight hundred and seventy nine. 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.160 It has since become known as the Sack of Rome. 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.400 She finished second at the Rapid Women's World Chess Championship 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:02.880 and s get in the World Junior Chess Championship. Although 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:05.320 she never reached the level of grand master and hasn't 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.280 played competitive ranked chess since two thousand ten, she was 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.800 at one point ranked six amongst all female chess players 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:15.680 in the world by chess standards. Sophia is the least 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.920 accomplished of the three sisters, but Susan considered Sophia the 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:22.720 most naturally gifted of them. Susan wrote in her book 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:26.040 Breaking Through that Sophia would give up fights easier, and 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:30.280 rather than focusing on one thing entirely, she diversified her interests. 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:37.480 Two years after Sophia, Judah was born. By the time 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.559 Juda turned three, both Susan and Sophia were playing competitive chess. 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:44.480 They lived in a small apartment and her older sisters 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.840 were training in the living room behind closed doors. Judah 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:49.800 was forbidden to go into the room, and as you 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:53.360 can imagine, she very much wanted to. Her parents told 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.160 her she could enter. Once she learned to play chess. 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:00.199 From an early age, Judah loved challenges. She would take 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:02.880 the stairs when everyone else took the elevator, So the 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:12.360 challenge of chess suited her. Judah would become the strongest 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.560 female chess player of all time. She was the youngest 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:18.640 player to break into the top on international chess ranking 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:21.520 at only twelve years old. She achieved the title of 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:25.200 grand Master at age fifteen, several months younger than even 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:29.360 Bobby Fisher. Gary Kasparov, considered by many to be the 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.720 greatest chess player of all time, once said she has 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:36.560 fantastic chess talent, but she is, after all, a woman. 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.319 It all comes down to the imperfections of the feminine psyche. 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:46.120 No woman can sustain a prolonged battle. Judah defeated him 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:52.400 in two thousand two. After the loss, he has quoted 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:54.920 as saying the pulgar showed that there are no inherent 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:58.120 limitations to their aptitude, an idea that many male players 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:02.480 refused to accept. Until they had unceremoniously been crushed by 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.719 a twelve year old with a ponytail. Jude was the 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.440 number one ranked female player in the world for twenty 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:11.360 one years. She's the only woman to have ever won 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:14.559 a game against a world number one ranked player. All total, 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:26.160 she has defeated eleven current or former world champions. Although 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:29.000 none of the sisters accomplished Laslow's goal of becoming the 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.360 world champion for both women and men, Judah did reach 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.720 the overall rank of eight, which was an unimaginable achievement. 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:39.160 Chess had been completely dominated by men until the Polgar 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:42.920 sisters broke the gender barrier and proved that women can 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.200 compete with men at the highest levels of chess. Laslow's 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:51.040 educational experiment was incredibly successful, but as with any experiment, 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:53.920 it has to be repeatable. We'll get into that after 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:58.400 a quick break. Still living in and manually taking notes, 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.200 start the new year with otter dot ai to generate 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:05.360 automatic notes for meetings, interviews, or lectures. 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So I'm interested in the pollgars 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:35.880 actually were suited for chess or if this method could 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:39.440 be repeated with any child. I contacted a child psychologist 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:43.600 who has worked with gifted children for decades, Dr Spamanka Newman. 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.960 I began by asking her to define what a prodigy is. 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:53.400 We have extraordinarily advanced and very early domain specific skill, 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:57.400 and then we have a child who exhibits ability to 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:01.840 perform in the domain as he is a talented adult. 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.440 In popular media, sometimes people refer to very smart children 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:09.600 as geniuses, But genius is an adult. That adult doesn't 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:13.000 just have a skill in a domain, but transforms a 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:16.520 domain in a way that is irreversible. As a result 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:19.320 of a genius, we start thinking differently about something that 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.200 is very important and it has a lasting value. Children 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:26.760 prodigies have early promise and they have early performance, but 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.240 they might not transform the field. They just perform in 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:33.680 the field as though they are talented adults. I know 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:36.120 this may be a different definition of genius than you're 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.520 used to. The word has evolved over time, and psychologists 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:41.680 seem to prefer not to base the word on an 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:45.480 IQ test result. Last lous ability to initiate and retain 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:48.480 interest in his children. It seems rather critical. What was 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:52.280 the significance of his method. We are having extraordinary talent here, 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:54.640 but we are also having a child. You may have 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:59.320 potential to achieve in learning chess as an adult, but 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:03.240 you are three year old. Three year olds play. Unless 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:06.879 learning is a play, it might not be sustained for 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:12.919 a long time. Plays rewarding place, exhilarating, place, energizing. Like 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:17.000 in every development of mastery in any field, there is 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:19.800 a point later where there is going to be transitioned 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:24.359 from play to discipline. Mastery cannot be achieved without disciplined practice, 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:26.960 but that comes later. If that is introduced to early, 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.640 it may kill the joy and so the child might 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:33.480 lose interest. Regardless of what I think, Laslow did state 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.000 what his plan was, and it worked, could it not 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.840 be reproduced with other children? There is that intersection of 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:45.440 a parent who is already having a child with exceptional potential, 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:51.520 drive and interest. That can lead that potential into realization. 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.160 But I don't think it can create a prodigy. Most 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.840 parents would try that if they don't have the child 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.720 with a potential and interest, create very angry, resentful children 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.479 who actually at the end don't love what they are 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:08.359 exposed to. So Dr Newman believes that loudslow success was 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:11.159 a coincidence and would not be as effective with the 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:16.120 average child. And she's not alone. Here's Dr Scott Barry Kaufman. 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:21.199 Feldman noted, there's usually a lucky coinciding of lots of 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.159 different factors. You know, they usually do find a parent 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:28.080 who accelerates the process in some way. And here's Dr 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:31.000 Feldman himself. I asked him about the belief that any 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:35.040 healthy child is a potential prodigy. That's the behavior of belief, 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:37.520 and a lot of people bought it and still do 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:41.680 that you can make any child into anything, and it's 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:46.240 not true. So that they got to just is maybe 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:49.639 fortunate in their case. If they had tried something else, 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:53.960 the probabilities are not in their favor. They probably would 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:56.560 not be known to us as the Polgar family, they 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:59.959 probably wouldn't be known to us at all. Laslow believed 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:03.520 that genetic predisposition was irrelevant. However, if that were true, 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.600 wouldn't his daughters either have the exact same skill or 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.480 increasing skill As he refined his method. While the youngest sister, 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:14.240 jude It, was the most successful, the middle sister, Sophia, 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.440 was the least. To me, this shows the influence of genetics. 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:24.640 Genetics can indirectly influence our attention and influence our drives 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:28.080 to want to create experiences for ourselves. I mean, they're 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:29.439 all throughout the course of the day. We have a 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:33.200 million little micro decisions we have to make. These things 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:36.040 add up starting at a very very young age. I 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.520 think genes can help direct our attention to features of 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:43.360 the environment that we find interesting and help us ignore 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.720 features of our environment that we don't find interesting. Based 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:49.840 on my research of Susan Paulgar, I think she might disagree, 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:52.520 so I reached out to her. I was very curious 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.240 whether she applied the same strategy to her own children. 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:59.080 I began by asking her if inherent talent was important. Well, 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:03.200 it definitely, how although I think it's very much overrated 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:07.560 in many people's minds. I think hard work definitely is 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:11.720 a much more important ingredient in someone's success. So I 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:15.720 I certainly agree with my father's theory that success is 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:21.359 mostly hard work and sweat rather than the innate talent. 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:26.080 I wasn't necessarily an extraordinarily talented chess player when I 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:30.200 was born, but rather that it took years of persistant 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:34.600 practice and devotion that resulted in my success. Do you 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:36.960 believe that you might have been born with genetic traits 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.720 that were suited for chess. Well, it's obviously hard to tell, 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:42.439 but I don't think I had a very special talent 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:45.840 for chess. There are other types of talents that are 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:51.239 more generic, like having the patients to focus on a 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:55.720 particular subject for a lengthy amount of times and having 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:59.920 the perseverance or this type of more generic human Well, 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:03.280 it is I think I'm more important than than the 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:07.640 specific talent for a certain activity. Why do you think 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:12.760 early specialization is so important. I think that children rest 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:18.080 certain concept and dynamic of the various activities. It becomes 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:20.879 second nature as you grow up. You don't think of 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:24.560 it as a study or work or anything like that. 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:28.560 It just kind of becomes normal and natural for you. 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.040 And that's something I think it is hard to teach, 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:34.280 and I think that's a very important component of my 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:38.480 father's theories. The brain is like a sponge. You grasps 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:43.879 the knowledge the dynamics of of the certain field just 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:47.520 so much clicker and naturally then than it would later. 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:50.520 Often you find prodigies and families where a parent was 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:53.919 talented in the domain and accelerated the process. Was your 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:56.520 father a skuillt chess player, as well. He was not 0:21:56.720 --> 0:22:00.760 a professional chess player ever, or even a competitive as players. 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:04.959 He had very limited skills as a chess player. However, 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:09.320 he was a teacher and a psychologist by education and profession, 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:14.840 so he had amazing skills patients and asking the right questions. 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:18.480 And initially we were learning together. I mean he was 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:20.840 ahead of me a bit, but we were learning together 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:24.080 from books. The mark of a good teacher is to 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:28.119 a having the patience keeping the interest of the students, 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:33.399 and then not less importantly, keep asking stimulating questions and 0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:36.400 the right type of questions. And he was really really 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:40.720 good at that, in creating my interests and then keeping 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:43.040 my interests, which is not easy. I can tell you 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:45.240 as a as a mother and as well as a 0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:48.600 coach that, especially of young children who are four or 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:51.480 five six years old, it's not easy to keep the 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:55.639 interest for an extended period of time. But he was 0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:59.200 really good at it's making it's fun. I remember I 0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:03.639 couldn't eight for for the next lesson, for the next discoveries. 0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:06.479 How exactly was he able to first get you interested 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:09.639 in chess? Well, he he made it sound like a 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.800 fairy tale story, you know, like the King and the 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:18.280 queen in the castle and the fortress, and it's not competitive. 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:21.600 And I think the fact that he did not emphasize 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:26.080 the competitive aspect of chess in the beginning was important. 0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:30.800 Susan was monumental in breaking the gender barrier that existed 0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:33.119 in chess. She was the first woman to become a 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:36.120 men's grand master. But I was curious if she resented 0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:39.840 missing out on a typical childhood. Well, at some point, obviously, 0:23:39.880 --> 0:23:43.280 I realized that my life is somewhat different than of 0:23:43.640 --> 0:23:47.960 my peers. I certainly missed out on something. But I 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:50.520 understood also at the same time, even back then in 0:23:50.560 --> 0:23:53.680 my teenage years, that while I am giving up on 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:56.680 some things, I'm getting a lot of other things that 0:23:56.760 --> 0:23:59.959 they miss out on and may never get those opportunities. 0:24:00.640 --> 0:24:03.120 Your parents dedication to your training must have been an 0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:06.680 incredible amount of work. Did you use the same educational 0:24:06.720 --> 0:24:10.639 method on your own children. I definitely did, consider it 0:24:10.680 --> 0:24:14.119 did not exactly happen right like that for a number 0:24:14.160 --> 0:24:17.600 of reasons, partly because I got divorced pretty early on 0:24:17.640 --> 0:24:21.160 from their father. Also, it takes a lot of sacrifice 0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:24.119 from the parents perspective. I had to focus on my 0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:27.879 career at the time, and wasn't in the position to 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:31.439 fully focus on them. You were obviously born from some 0:24:31.520 --> 0:24:34.320 really intelligent parents. Do you think your father could have 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:38.360 reproduced the success with adopted children. I think it could have, 0:24:38.760 --> 0:24:41.919 and I know that he was approached by some people 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:46.159 in trying to see if he can, and he was 0:24:46.280 --> 0:24:48.840 ready and willing to do it, but he did not 0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:52.560 want to do it with two children unless he was 0:24:52.640 --> 0:24:56.240 able to actually legally adopt them. That was a little 0:24:56.240 --> 0:24:59.920 bit complicated, and eventually it never happened. But he does 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:03.119 And if I believed that he could have done it, 0:25:03.119 --> 0:25:07.320 it's obviously a very long term experiment or project. It's 0:25:07.359 --> 0:25:10.200 like a fifteen twenty year project, and it's a matter 0:25:10.200 --> 0:25:13.800 of having the energy to to do it all over again. 0:25:13.880 --> 0:25:16.040 In fact, he believed that he would have been even 0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:19.480 more successful because he had the experience, and he he 0:25:19.560 --> 0:25:23.920 would have not had made some of the mistakes that 0:25:24.000 --> 0:25:27.160 he made back with us, but he could have improved 0:25:27.200 --> 0:25:31.040 on them. Also, we were growing up very poor, you know, 0:25:31.200 --> 0:25:34.119 years later, and this was in question. He would have 0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:38.399 had much more resources to make it easier. Since your 0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:41.880 sister Sophia displayed such a strong aptitude. I was really 0:25:41.920 --> 0:25:43.879 curious as to why she never reached the rank of 0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:48.000 grand Master. Sophia has a different personality and she always 0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:51.320