1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: Hijack. It's a productive of I heart radio. Prodigies are 2 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: children that display rapid skill acquisition in a domain. A 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 1: domain is any specific area of activity or knowledge, like tennis, 4 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: or writing, or psychology or chess. Chess is a domain 5 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: where mastery is associated with a superior intellect. It's incredibly strategic. 6 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: Yet it's simple enough that a child can play. But 7 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: some children do more than just play. My name is 8 00:00:45,120 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: Lowell Balante, and this is prodigy. If you're like me, 9 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: you believe that a prodigy is a rare combination of 10 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 1: genetic talent, environment and effort. But some people have made 11 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: a lot of money selling the idea that talent doesn't 12 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: exist and that the driving force behind expert performance is 13 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: just effort. They also call it hard work or practice. 14 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: A common way they introduced this idea is by using 15 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: the example of the Polgar sisters. Here is their story. 16 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: Before his children were even conceived, Laslow Polgar believed they 17 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: would be prodigies. Laslow is a Hungarian educational psychologist born 18 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty six. As a university student, he studied 19 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: intelligence and came to the conclusion that people who were 20 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: recognized as geniuses had early introduction to their domain. Laslow 21 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: is quoted as saying, it's very interesting because when I 22 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: looked at the life stories of geniuses, I found the 23 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: same thing. They all started at a very young age 24 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: and studied intensively. Mozart is a classic example because his 25 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: father was a music teacher. Mozart began learning to play 26 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: the piano at three years old. He developed perfect pitch 27 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: and became so famous that his name is interchangeable. A genius. 28 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: So Laslow theorized that early specialized education is far more 29 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: important than talent. He concluded that introduction should begin at 30 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: three years old and intensive education should begin at six. 31 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: Laslow was so confident that he became determined to prove 32 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: that he could turn any healthy newborn into a genius, 33 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: and he decided he would do it with his own children. 34 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: Laslo began courting the daughter of a family friend. She 35 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: was a Ukrainian foreign language teacher named Clara. They wrote 36 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: to each other often, and in the letters Blow disclosed 37 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: his plan. Claire thought he was a little strange, but 38 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: became convinced, and after a year and a half he proposed. 39 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: Laslow and Claire married and had a daughter they named Susan. 40 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: They considered various topics for Susan to specialize in, originally 41 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: considering mathematics and language, But one day the toddler found 42 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: a chessboard in a cabinet and became intensely curious. Years later, 43 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: Susan would say he could have put us in any field, 44 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: but it was I who chose chess. I liked the chessmen. 45 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: They were toys for me. Here's a quick introduction to 46 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: the game of chess. The board is a square made 47 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: up of sixty four smaller squares. Each player has sixteen 48 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: pieces which control one fourth of the board. Those pieces 49 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: include six different types, made up of eight pawns, two rooks, 50 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: two nights, to bishops, one queen, and one king. Players 51 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: alternate turns with the goal of apping their opponents king. 52 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: Once the game begins and each player makes their opening move, 53 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: there are now four hundred different possibilities for their next move. 54 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: After their second move, they're over seventy two. After three 55 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: moves there are nine million, and after four moves they're 56 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: over three eighteen billion. To put this in perspective, the 57 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: observable universe is estimated to have approximately ten to the 58 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: eighty atoms. That's a ten with eight zeros after it. 59 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: The number of possible permutations of chess is estimated to 60 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: be ten to the one twenty three, so the quantity 61 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: of possible games is nearly unlimited. This is why chess, 62 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: while easy to learn the basics, has infinite layers. Chess, 63 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: Clara said, is objective and easy to measure. Chess is 64 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: what's known as a zero sum game, which means the 65 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: winner takes rating points from the loser. Those points out 66 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: up to your rating in what's known as an Elo 67 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 1: rating system. In an Elo rating system, two equally rated 68 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: players facing off should win an equal number of times, 69 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: thus winning and losing an equal amount of points. But 70 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: if a lower rated player defeats a higher rated player, 71 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: then they're awarded more points than if a higher rated 72 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: player defeats a lower rated player over the course of 73 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: many games. This system is designed to give players a 74 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: rating consistent with their skill level. Laslow only had an 75 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: amateur understanding of the game, so how would he turn 76 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: his children into grand master level players. He published a 77 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: book in nine titled Raise a Genius, where he discusses 78 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: his method. The first thing he states is that there 79 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: is no secret to his system. It's based on the 80 00:05:53,400 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: following standard educational concepts. You can't achieve results through coercion. 81 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 1: Too much severity will diminish the child's interest. Allow the 82 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: child to win sometimes so they are given the feeling 83 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: of success. Play with a handicap, then gradually reduce it 84 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: as the student becomes better. The training must be age appropriate. 85 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: Use games to awaken interest, because students master subjects much 86 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: more quickly when they are interested. So he gradually taught 87 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: Susan the basics of chess one concept at a time, 88 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: and kept her interested by making smaller games out of it. 89 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: The first thing he did was teacher the names of 90 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: the squares using pieces of graph paper. Since chess consists 91 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: of an eight by eight square grid, the row of 92 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: squares facing the player are labeled alphabetically A through H, 93 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: and the perpendicular squares are numbered one through eight. Laslow 94 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: gives Susan a location B three, for example, and she 95 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: would have to mark it with an X. Next, he 96 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: taught her the colors of the squares, which alternate between 97 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: black and white. After Susan learned the layout of the board, 98 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: he introduced the simplest piece, the pawn. They would play 99 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: pawn wars with the goal of reaching their opponents baseline. 100 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: Then he introduced the next piece, and so on and 101 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: so forth. Mastering the basics is a critical concept where 102 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: Laslow believes standard education fail students. Without it, you cannot 103 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: master more complicated subjects. My father believes that innate talent 104 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: is nothing, that success is hard work. I agree with him. 105 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: Susan Polgar. Susan is the firstborn child of Laslow and 106 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: Clara Polgar. She played her first major tournament in an 107 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: eleven and under Championship at only four years old and 108 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: dominated with a perfect ten and no score. The media 109 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,239 Speaker 1: labeled her a prodigy, but there were many who were critical. 110 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: They believed little girls should play with dolls, not chessboards 111 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: and wooden pieces. At six years old, it was time 112 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: for her to go to school. Her parents decided that 113 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: formal education would be more harmful than helpful and decided 114 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: to apply for a permit to homeschool Susan. It was 115 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: a very difficult process, but they did eventually receive permission. 116 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: The following five years were spent studying chess to improve 117 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: tactical and calculation skills. She read books, studied famous grandmaster games, 118 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: learned to play blindfolded and practiced her endgame. When Susan 119 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: was twelve, she won the sixteen and Underworld Championship. By 120 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: age fifteen, she was the number one ranked female chess 121 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: player in the world and remained in the top three 122 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: for the next twenty three years. She became the first 123 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: woman in history to qualify for the men's World Championship. 124 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: In nights one, she became the first woman in history 125 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: to achieve the men's Grand Master title. In two thousand three, 126 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 1: she became the first woman to win the USO and 127 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: Blitz Championship. She went on to win it again in 128 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,199 Speaker 1: two thousand five and two thousand six. She became the 129 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: first World champion in history to win the Triple Crown, 130 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: which consists of rapid, blitz, A and classical chess all total. 131 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: She is a five time Olympic champion. Susan was not 132 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: an only child, and when Sophia was born in nineteen 133 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 1: seventy four, chess was already taken seriously at home. When 134 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: Sophia was five years old, she won the Hungarian Girls 135 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: eleven and Under Championship. She won the gold medal in 136 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: the Under fourteen Girls World Chess Championship at age eleven, 137 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: when Sophia was fourteen, while playing in an open tournament 138 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: in Rome, she delivered one of the strongest chess performances 139 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: ever recorded, defeating four grand master level opponents and scoring 140 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: an ELO rating of two thousand, eight hundred and seventy nine. 141 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: It has since become known as the Sack of Rome. 142 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: She finished second at the Rapid Women's World Chess Championship 143 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: and s get in the World Junior Chess Championship. Although 144 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 1: she never reached the level of grand master and hasn't 145 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: played competitive ranked chess since two thousand ten, she was 146 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: at one point ranked six amongst all female chess players 147 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: in the world by chess standards. Sophia is the least 148 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: accomplished of the three sisters, but Susan considered Sophia the 149 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: most naturally gifted of them. Susan wrote in her book 150 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: Breaking Through that Sophia would give up fights easier, and 151 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: rather than focusing on one thing entirely, she diversified her interests. 152 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: Two years after Sophia, Judah was born. By the time 153 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 1: Juda turned three, both Susan and Sophia were playing competitive chess. 154 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: They lived in a small apartment and her older sisters 155 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: were training in the living room behind closed doors. Judah 156 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: was forbidden to go into the room, and as you 157 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: can imagine, she very much wanted to. Her parents told 158 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: her she could enter. Once she learned to play chess. 159 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,199 Speaker 1: From an early age, Judah loved challenges. She would take 160 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: the stairs when everyone else took the elevator, So the 161 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: challenge of chess suited her. Judah would become the strongest 162 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: female chess player of all time. She was the youngest 163 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: player to break into the top on international chess ranking 164 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: at only twelve years old. She achieved the title of 165 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: grand Master at age fifteen, several months younger than even 166 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: Bobby Fisher. Gary Kasparov, considered by many to be the 167 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: greatest chess player of all time, once said she has 168 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: fantastic chess talent, but she is, after all, a woman. 169 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 1: It all comes down to the imperfections of the feminine psyche. 170 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: No woman can sustain a prolonged battle. Judah defeated him 171 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: in two thousand two. After the loss, he has quoted 172 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: as saying the pulgar showed that there are no inherent 173 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: limitations to their aptitude, an idea that many male players 174 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: refused to accept. Until they had unceremoniously been crushed by 175 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,719 Speaker 1: a twelve year old with a ponytail. Jude was the 176 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: number one ranked female player in the world for twenty 177 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: one years. She's the only woman to have ever won 178 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 1: a game against a world number one ranked player. All total, 179 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: she has defeated eleven current or former world champions. Although 180 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: none of the sisters accomplished Laslow's goal of becoming the 181 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: world champion for both women and men, Judah did reach 182 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: the overall rank of eight, which was an unimaginable achievement. 183 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: Chess had been completely dominated by men until the Polgar 184 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: sisters broke the gender barrier and proved that women can 185 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: compete with men at the highest levels of chess. Laslow's 186 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: educational experiment was incredibly successful, but as with any experiment, 187 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: it has to be repeatable. We'll get into that after 188 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: a quick break. Still living in and manually taking notes, 189 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: start the new year with otter dot ai to generate 190 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: automatic notes for meetings, interviews, or lectures. With auto dot ai, 191 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: you can search the meeting notes, insert images, playback the audio, 192 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: and share them with your friends or coworkers. You can 193 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: capture action items, remember meeting details, and keep everyone informed. 194 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 1: Auto dot ai works for in person or virtual meetings 195 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: like Zoom, Microsoft Teams, and Google meet. Sign up for 196 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: free at auto dot ai or download the app for 197 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: free auto dot ai. That's O T T E R 198 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: dot ai. Imagine fighting climate change. Every time you buy 199 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: groceries or pizza. Now you can. With the Aspiration zero 200 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: credit card. You can reduce your carbon footprint by making 201 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: the same purchases you always make. Aspiration zero plants one 202 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: tree every time you make a purchase, or plant two 203 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: trees when you choose to round all your purchases up 204 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: to the nearest dollar. Track your progress in the app 205 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: and earn one percent cash back each month you reach 206 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: carbon zero for a limited time, Earn a three dollar 207 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: bonus when you open an account at asp ration dot 208 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 1: com and spend three thousand dollars in the first ninety days. 209 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: Join the community that helps you fight climate change with 210 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: every purchase. Aspiration zero one card, zero carbon footprint. The 211 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: Aspiration zero MasterCard is issued by Beneficial State Bank, pursu 212 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: into license by MasterCard International Incorporated. Beneficial State Bank Member 213 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: f d I C. Terms and conditions apply. Visit Aspiration 214 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: dot com slash zero for more information. How do you 215 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: prepare your kids today to succeed in tomorrow's world? Meet Juni. 216 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: Juni is an online learning experience equipping the next generation 217 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: of students to solve the world's largest problems. Best known 218 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: for their Steam courses like coding, investing, and novel writing, 219 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: Junie is starting off the new year right by adding 220 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: even more great courses all new robotics, crypto app development, 221 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: three D design and more. So many options for kids 222 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: seven to eighteen and with varying types of learning formats 223 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: and project at based curriculum, your student will be ready 224 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: to take on the real world. See for yourself why 225 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: Junie is trusted by thousands of parents and loved by kids. 226 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: Go to j U and I Learning dot com and 227 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: take advantage of a special invite to kick off the 228 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: new year. Enter promo code I Heart thirty at checkout 229 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: for thirty percent off. That's j U and I Learning 230 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: dot com and promo code I Heart thirty for thirty 231 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: percent off all the great courses Junie has to offer. 232 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Prodigy. So I'm interested in the pollgars 233 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: actually were suited for chess or if this method could 234 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: be repeated with any child. I contacted a child psychologist 235 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: who has worked with gifted children for decades, Dr Spamanka Newman. 236 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: I began by asking her to define what a prodigy is. 237 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: We have extraordinarily advanced and very early domain specific skill, 238 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: and then we have a child who exhibits ability to 239 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: perform in the domain as he is a talented adult. 240 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: In popular media, sometimes people refer to very smart children 241 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: as geniuses, But genius is an adult. That adult doesn't 242 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: just have a skill in a domain, but transforms a 243 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: domain in a way that is irreversible. As a result 244 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: of a genius, we start thinking differently about something that 245 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: is very important and it has a lasting value. Children 246 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: prodigies have early promise and they have early performance, but 247 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: they might not transform the field. They just perform in 248 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: the field as though they are talented adults. I know 249 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: this may be a different definition of genius than you're 250 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: used to. The word has evolved over time, and psychologists 251 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: seem to prefer not to base the word on an 252 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: IQ test result. Last lous ability to initiate and retain 253 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: interest in his children. It seems rather critical. What was 254 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: the significance of his method. We are having extraordinary talent here, 255 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: but we are also having a child. You may have 256 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: potential to achieve in learning chess as an adult, but 257 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: you are three year old. Three year olds play. Unless 258 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: learning is a play, it might not be sustained for 259 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: a long time. Plays rewarding place, exhilarating, place, energizing. Like 260 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: in every development of mastery in any field, there is 261 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: a point later where there is going to be transitioned 262 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: from play to discipline. Mastery cannot be achieved without disciplined practice, 263 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: but that comes later. If that is introduced to early, 264 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 1: it may kill the joy and so the child might 265 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: lose interest. Regardless of what I think, Laslow did state 266 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: what his plan was, and it worked, could it not 267 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: be reproduced with other children? There is that intersection of 268 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: a parent who is already having a child with exceptional potential, 269 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: drive and interest. That can lead that potential into realization. 270 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: But I don't think it can create a prodigy. Most 271 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: parents would try that if they don't have the child 272 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: with a potential and interest, create very angry, resentful children 273 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,479 Speaker 1: who actually at the end don't love what they are 274 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: exposed to. So Dr Newman believes that loudslow success was 275 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: a coincidence and would not be as effective with the 276 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: average child. And she's not alone. Here's Dr Scott Barry Kaufman. 277 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 1: Feldman noted, there's usually a lucky coinciding of lots of 278 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: different factors. You know, they usually do find a parent 279 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: who accelerates the process in some way. And here's Dr 280 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: Feldman himself. I asked him about the belief that any 281 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: healthy child is a potential prodigy. That's the behavior of belief, 282 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: and a lot of people bought it and still do 283 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: that you can make any child into anything, and it's 284 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: not true. So that they got to just is maybe 285 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: fortunate in their case. If they had tried something else, 286 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: the probabilities are not in their favor. They probably would 287 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: not be known to us as the Polgar family, they 288 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,959 Speaker 1: probably wouldn't be known to us at all. Laslow believed 289 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: that genetic predisposition was irrelevant. However, if that were true, 290 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: wouldn't his daughters either have the exact same skill or 291 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: increasing skill As he refined his method. While the youngest sister, 292 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: jude It, was the most successful, the middle sister, Sophia, 293 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: was the least. To me, this shows the influence of genetics. 294 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: Genetics can indirectly influence our attention and influence our drives 295 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: to want to create experiences for ourselves. I mean, they're 296 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: all throughout the course of the day. We have a 297 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: million little micro decisions we have to make. These things 298 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: add up starting at a very very young age. I 299 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: think genes can help direct our attention to features of 300 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 1: the environment that we find interesting and help us ignore 301 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: features of our environment that we don't find interesting. Based 302 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: on my research of Susan Paulgar, I think she might disagree, 303 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: so I reached out to her. I was very curious 304 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: whether she applied the same strategy to her own children. 305 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: I began by asking her if inherent talent was important. Well, 306 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: it definitely, how although I think it's very much overrated 307 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: in many people's minds. I think hard work definitely is 308 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: a much more important ingredient in someone's success. So I 309 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: I certainly agree with my father's theory that success is 310 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: mostly hard work and sweat rather than the innate talent. 311 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: I wasn't necessarily an extraordinarily talented chess player when I 312 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: was born, but rather that it took years of persistant 313 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: practice and devotion that resulted in my success. Do you 314 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: believe that you might have been born with genetic traits 315 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: that were suited for chess. Well, it's obviously hard to tell, 316 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: but I don't think I had a very special talent 317 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: for chess. There are other types of talents that are 318 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:51,239 Speaker 1: more generic, like having the patients to focus on a 319 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: particular subject for a lengthy amount of times and having 320 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: the perseverance or this type of more generic human Well, 321 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: it is I think I'm more important than than the 322 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: specific talent for a certain activity. Why do you think 323 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: early specialization is so important. I think that children rest 324 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: certain concept and dynamic of the various activities. It becomes 325 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 1: second nature as you grow up. You don't think of 326 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: it as a study or work or anything like that. 327 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: It just kind of becomes normal and natural for you. 328 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: And that's something I think it is hard to teach, 329 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: and I think that's a very important component of my 330 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: father's theories. The brain is like a sponge. You grasps 331 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 1: the knowledge the dynamics of of the certain field just 332 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: so much clicker and naturally then than it would later. 333 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: Often you find prodigies and families where a parent was 334 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 1: talented in the domain and accelerated the process. Was your 335 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: father a skuillt chess player, as well. He was not 336 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: a professional chess player ever, or even a competitive as players. 337 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,959 Speaker 1: He had very limited skills as a chess player. However, 338 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: he was a teacher and a psychologist by education and profession, 339 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: so he had amazing skills patients and asking the right questions. 340 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: And initially we were learning together. I mean he was 341 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: ahead of me a bit, but we were learning together 342 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: from books. The mark of a good teacher is to 343 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: a having the patience keeping the interest of the students, 344 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 1: and then not less importantly, keep asking stimulating questions and 345 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 1: the right type of questions. And he was really really 346 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: good at that, in creating my interests and then keeping 347 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: my interests, which is not easy. I can tell you 348 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: as a as a mother and as well as a 349 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: coach that, especially of young children who are four or 350 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: five six years old, it's not easy to keep the 351 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: interest for an extended period of time. But he was 352 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: really good at it's making it's fun. I remember I 353 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: couldn't eight for for the next lesson, for the next discoveries. 354 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,479 Speaker 1: How exactly was he able to first get you interested 355 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: in chess? Well, he he made it sound like a 356 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: fairy tale story, you know, like the King and the 357 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: queen in the castle and the fortress, and it's not competitive. 358 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: And I think the fact that he did not emphasize 359 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: the competitive aspect of chess in the beginning was important. 360 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: Susan was monumental in breaking the gender barrier that existed 361 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 1: in chess. She was the first woman to become a 362 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: men's grand master. But I was curious if she resented 363 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: missing out on a typical childhood. Well, at some point, obviously, 364 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: I realized that my life is somewhat different than of 365 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: my peers. I certainly missed out on something. But I 366 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: understood also at the same time, even back then in 367 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: my teenage years, that while I am giving up on 368 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 1: some things, I'm getting a lot of other things that 369 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,959 Speaker 1: they miss out on and may never get those opportunities. 370 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: Your parents dedication to your training must have been an 371 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: incredible amount of work. Did you use the same educational 372 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: method on your own children. I definitely did, consider it 373 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: did not exactly happen right like that for a number 374 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: of reasons, partly because I got divorced pretty early on 375 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 1: from their father. Also, it takes a lot of sacrifice 376 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: from the parents perspective. I had to focus on my 377 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: career at the time, and wasn't in the position to 378 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 1: fully focus on them. You were obviously born from some 379 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: really intelligent parents. Do you think your father could have 380 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 1: reproduced the success with adopted children. I think it could have, 381 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 1: and I know that he was approached by some people 382 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 1: in trying to see if he can, and he was 383 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: ready and willing to do it, but he did not 384 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: want to do it with two children unless he was 385 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: able to actually legally adopt them. That was a little 386 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: bit complicated, and eventually it never happened. But he does 387 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: And if I believed that he could have done it, 388 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: it's obviously a very long term experiment or project. It's 389 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: like a fifteen twenty year project, and it's a matter 390 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: of having the energy to to do it all over again. 391 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: In fact, he believed that he would have been even 392 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: more successful because he had the experience, and he he 393 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: would have not had made some of the mistakes that 394 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: he made back with us, but he could have improved 395 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: on them. Also, we were growing up very poor, you know, 396 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: years later, and this was in question. He would have 397 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: had much more resources to make it easier. Since your 398 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 1: sister Sophia displayed such a strong aptitude. I was really 399 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: curious as to why she never reached the rank of 400 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: grand Master. Sophia has a different personality and she always 401 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: had a lot of interest in art. She's quite a 402 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 1: good artist. She basically gave up relatively early and chose 403 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: a very different lifestyle, mostly to support her husband and 404 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 1: the raised the family and and all that. But it's 405 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: also that she has skipped at one point a month 406 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: or month and a half from just away from home. 407 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: By the time she came back from that trip, her 408 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: younger sister Judd kind of made a Humongo's jump and 409 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: it was kind of difficult for her, I think, to 410 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: handle that she is older, and before she left on 411 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: the trip she was clearly ahead of Judy as she 412 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: was expected to beg than that she is older, and 413 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: basically the month month and a half or so that 414 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: she was away and didn't practice at all, it just 415 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 1: made a world of a difference. All of a sudden, 416 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: Judy it was fitting her and the whole dynamics changed 417 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: and her motivation level dropped. And on one hand, of course, 418 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: she was very happy for Judy's but at the same 419 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,479 Speaker 1: time for her own motivation it was white life changing, 420 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: I think. And then after that she never really why 421 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: it got back, even though she showed some brilliants and 422 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: she had some amazing results even years later. But nevertheless, 423 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,199 Speaker 1: I think she lost the belief that she will be 424 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: as good as student, even if the goal is not 425 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: to create a grand master. Do you think it's beneficial 426 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: to teach your child to play chess? Chess with your 427 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: children is definitely a verse, while endeavor, if for nothing else, 428 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: to develop the mind, to develop good habits that can 429 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: are transferable for any other field. Susan has retired from 430 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: competitive chess. She's currently the head coach of the number 431 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: one rated collegiate chess team in the United States. She's 432 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: led them to five Final Four championships along with dozens 433 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: of national, World, and Pan American titles. Remember those people 434 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: I mentioned in the beginning that sell the idea that 435 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: talent is unimportant. Well, the reason why they used the 436 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: Pulgar Sisters as an example is because when you first 437 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: look at their success, they seem like genetically talented prodigies. 438 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: Once you dig into their story, you realize the massive 439 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: amount of training and practice they accrued by starting so young. 440 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 1: This reinforces their argument that the most important predictor of 441 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: performance is practice. The first issue I see here is 442 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: that the example uses the demand of chess, but as 443 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: chess an accurate representation for other domains. We'll get into that. 444 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: After a quick break at Target, we come in for 445 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: black owned coffee and leave with change in our hands. 446 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,360 Speaker 1: We come in for healthier snacks and leave feeling more 447 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: fulfilled at Target, better days are within our reach. What 448 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: we value most shouldn't cost more. This episode is brought 449 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: to you by Royal Caribbean, an award winning global cruise line. 450 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: A vacation is what you make it, so are you 451 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: ready to make the most of it. A Royal Caribbean 452 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: Adventure is the perfect opportunity to not just take a vacation, 453 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: but to take it for all it's worth. We know 454 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: you're eager to get back out there, and with Royal 455 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: Caribbean you can make the most of the moment and 456 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: rise to the vacation. This is not just a cruise. 457 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: This is the biggest, boldest vacation on land or at sea. 458 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: This is pushing the limits of what could be done 459 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: at sea and on land, breaking records and earning honors 460 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: along the way. With over two hundred and seventy plus 461 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: destinations from the Caribbean, Alaska to Europe, and the biggest 462 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: ships in the world to take you there. Each one 463 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: of our cruises is packed full of onboard features you 464 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: won't find anywhere else, like the tallest slide at sea 465 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: and the tallest water slide in all North America. Plus 466 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: dining that takes your taste buds on a world tour, 467 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: jaw dropping entertainment, and award winning service delivered by a 468 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: crew that comes to us from over one hundred and 469 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: forty countries. So just don't take a vacation, Rise to 470 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: the vacation, Come seek the Royal Caribbean. Visit Royal Caribbean 471 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: dot com to learn more. This episode is brought to 472 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: you by direct TV Stream, introducing direct TV Stream the 473 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: best of live TV and on demand, which means you 474 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: can get all your favorite sports, movies and shows together 475 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: so you can watch new episodes of your favorite reality 476 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: shows live or binge old episodes on demand. Either way, 477 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: get ready for some drama and the best part, Direct 478 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: TV Stream has no annual contract. Direct TV stream Get 479 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: your TV together at direct tv dot com requires high 480 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: speed Internet and compatible device. Content varies by package and 481 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: location restrictions supply, welcome back. If you want to learn 482 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: more about my guests, the research, my dog, or get 483 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: in touch with me, visit Prodigy podcast dot com. All 484 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: right back to the show. To me, competitive games like 485 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: chess are fun, But what I'm really interested in is 486 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: do these lessons actually apply to other areas like your career. 487 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: Professor Robin Hogarth came up with the reason we should 488 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: differentiate domains like chess compared to others. He refers to 489 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: skill games and sports as kind learning environments. Yeah, you're 490 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: here is the following. When is an intuition going to 491 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: be successful? Where will an intuition be accurate? An intuition 492 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: will be accurate if, in fact, it's based on the 493 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: right information. So if you've learned learned about the situation 494 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: you're involved with in the past, in an environment is 495 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: what I call kind where you've got good feedback, You'll 496 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: be able to see all the data. Everything's been clear 497 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: to you and it's well laid out. The environments are 498 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: going to change. That's what's what we call kind running environment. 499 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: So in a kind learning environment, the rules don't change, 500 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: feedback is immediate and all the data is clear to you. 501 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: Chess is a kind learning environment, so time accrued memorizing 502 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: patterns is valuable, and early specialization is an advantage. The 503 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: opposite learning environment he refers to as wicked. But on 504 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: the other hand, you can also be in a wicked 505 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: learning environment where are you getting the wrong information, where 506 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: there's a lot of noise in the system, and perhaps 507 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: even where data is missing. So that's the difference in 508 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: your kind in a wicked learning environment, And we think 509 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: it's very important to understand where you're forming your opinions, 510 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: whether you're in a kind environment or wicked environment. In 511 00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: wicked environments, feedback is delayed, inadequate, or simply doesn't exist. 512 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: Data can be ambiguous and even misleading. Hogarth used the 513 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: following example. An early twentieth century physician working in a 514 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: New York hospital developed a reputation for being able to 515 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: accurately diagnose typhoid before symptoms manifested simply by feeling a 516 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: patient's tongue. It turned out that the doctor was actually 517 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: infected and giving the patients typhoid. It's an extreme example, 518 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: but it shows how in a wicked environment, feedback can 519 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: teach the wrong lessons. So if you want to improve 520 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: your performance in a wicked environment, should you try and 521 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: turn it into a kind one. Absolutely. One of the 522 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: interesting things about experience and learning is that we learned automatically. 523 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: We can't help it. We were just tuned to picking 524 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: up information so that we're exposed to and because of that, 525 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: if the environment is kind to learn the right thing, 526 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: environment is wicked. Rule in their own things, quick, accurate, 527 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: and abundant feedback is critically important. Chess is a very 528 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: kind environment. The rules don't change, the games are easily recorded, 529 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: and you can try cur rating as a measure of performance. 530 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: The pollgars had the benefit of grand master level coaches 531 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: throughout their training, so early specialization can definitely be an advantage, 532 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: but the major value in it might just exist in 533 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: kind learning environments. Also, early specialization might not actually be 534 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: much of an advantage at all. Professor Gulick, director of 535 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: the Institute of Applied Sports Science in Germany, published a 536 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: study in the Journal of Sports Sciences that compared the 537 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: training history of eighty three Olympic medalists to eight three 538 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: Olympic non metalists. The results showed that the medalists actually 539 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: started training in their main sport later than the non metalists. Additionally, 540 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: the medalists accrued more time training in other sports. This 541 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: is really interesting and I asked Professor Gulik what the 542 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: reason was, and the answer was, we don't know because 543 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: it's really difficult to study. But he does have a 544 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: couple of hypotheses. The first one is that early specializers 545 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: become mentally fatigued a k A. Burnout, were succumbed to 546 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: the increased risk of injury. The other is something known 547 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: as the gene environment correlation. We'll get into this in 548 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: a later episode, but briefly, the idea is that our 549 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: genetic traits have an influence on what environments we seek out. 550 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: A basic example is, if you are a very tall 551 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: and lean you may be drawn to the high jump. However, 552 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: a person who specializes early in basketball due to these 553 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: same physical characteristics may not realize they are actually better 554 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: suited for the high jump. So late bloomers have more 555 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 1: time and opportunity to find the domain best suited for them. 556 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: I think it's worth noting that Laslow didn't actually choose 557 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,359 Speaker 1: the domain, Susan did, so the claim that they could 558 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: have chosen any domain doesn't really hold much weight. Here's 559 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: Dr Feldman, one of the few people who was actually 560 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: directly studied prodigies, And there is a whole movement making 561 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: this claim that talent is irrelevant, and I and others 562 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,760 Speaker 1: school have actually done the work have tried to show 563 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: that the evidence does not support that claim, and it does. 564 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: It's a reasonable claim if you're arguing that effort and 565 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: sustained effort and teaching are essential to high level performance, 566 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: and that is absolutely true that it's part of what 567 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: I learned from my prodigies research. It's not something that 568 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: happens easily even with the most gifted, the most extraordinarily 569 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: talented kids. But to ignore the fact that they are 570 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: extraordinarily naturally talented kids, it's just ignoring the evidence. The 571 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: evidence is very clear, and anybody within any of the 572 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: fields that we've studied, people who actually do it, knows 573 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: that that's true and will assert it. Everybody knows that 574 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: that's true. Dr Kaufman has some really good advice about 575 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,760 Speaker 1: finding your calling, finding a service from outside of yourself, 576 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: not just that you can do, but that also makes 577 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 1: you feel intrinsic sense of joy and satisfaction when you 578 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 1: are engaging in it. That's enough. You don't have to 579 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,280 Speaker 1: be go go on the TV circuit for your amazing 580 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: ability to do one narrow thing in order to feel 581 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: like you've lived a meaningful life. The behaviorists who champion 582 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: the power of practice don't just use sensationalized examples like 583 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: the pollgars to make their argument. Another thing they do 584 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 1: is cite a particular study that is at the very 585 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: core of their argument. It was published by a researcher 586 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 1: that would come to be known as the father of 587 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: expert performance, Dr Carl anders Ericsson. We're going to dig 588 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: into the details of that as well as how we 589 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,359 Speaker 1: learn and what is physically happening in the brain when 590 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: we do. I have so many questions to answer and 591 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: a ton of really interesting topics to cover. Thank you 592 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 1: so much for listening, and please subscribe to the show 593 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: because I'll be back next week with another episode of Prodigy. 594 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 1: Prodigy was created and produced by me Lowell Berlante. Tyler 595 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: Klang is the executive producer. Without him, this show would 596 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: not have been made. If you want to learn more 597 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: about my guests, the show, my dog, or get in 598 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: touch with me, visit Prodigy podcast dot com. Dr Spomanka 599 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: Newman performs psychological assessments and therapy in Tucker, Georgia. You 600 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: can find more information at Psychologist for Kids dot com. 601 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: Robin Hogarth released a book titled The Myth of Experience, 602 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 1: Why we learn the wrong lessons and Ways to correct them. 603 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: Susan Polgar Foundation TACs chess and gives opportunities to young people. 604 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: You could find more information at Susan Polgar dot com. 605 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 1: Dr Scott Berry Kaufman is host of the Psychology podcast 606 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,240 Speaker 1: and has a new book out. Visit Scott Berry Kaufman 607 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,280 Speaker 1: dot com for details. Dr Feldman is a brilliant psychologist. 608 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: He's currently retiring but hopes that more people will take 609 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: the initiative to study the prodigy phenomenon. If you like 610 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: the show's artwork, checkout Pam Peacock on Instagram at The 611 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: Voyager Peacock Spell Show. Thanks to ban Kybrick, Tristan McNeil, 612 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: Michael Meyer, Dave Kuston, Alison Canter, and Alex Cardinelli. For 613 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 614 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 615 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: How do you prepare your kids today to succeed in 616 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: tomorrow's world? With Juny the online Learning Experience Equipping the 617 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: next generation of students to solve the world's largest problems. 618 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: Choose from popular Steam courses like coding, investing, novel writing 619 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: and all new robotics, crypto app development, three D design 620 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 1: and more. With all types of learning formats and project 621 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: based curriculum, your student will be ready to take on 622 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: the real world. Visit j U and I learning dot 623 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 1: com and enter promo code I Heart thirty at checkout 624 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: for thirty percent off. Still living in manually taking notes, 625 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: there is a better way to start the new year 626 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: with auto dot ai. Automatically get meeting notes. Auto dot 627 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: ai works for virtual meetings like Zoom, Microsoft Teams and 628 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 1: Google Meet. Sign up on the web for free or 629 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,800 Speaker 1: download in the app stores. Auto dot ai. That's O 630 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 1: T T e R dot ai. Still living in manually 631 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 1: taking notes? There is a better way to start the 632 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: new year with auto dot ai. Automatically get meeting notes. 633 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: Auto dot ai works for virtual meetings like Zoom, Microsoft 634 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 1: Teams and Google Meet. Sign up on the web for 635 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 1: free or download in the app stores. Auto dot ai. 636 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 1: That's O T T E R dot Ai. Gorgeous gaming, 637 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: stunning streams, unbelievable bandwidth. It's another lifestyles of gillionaires. Meet 638 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: the a T and T Fiber customers winning it life 639 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: with hyper gig speeds. Meet gillionaire Terry Well. His love 640 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: of streaming horror movies hasn't constantly on the edge of 641 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 1: his seat. His internet bill won't give him a scare. 642 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 1: Oh don't go in there, I'm telling you, because since 643 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: Terry upgraded to a T and T Fiber with hyper 644 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: gig speeds, he doesn't worry about data cap, store equipment 645 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 1: fees come. Oh man, it doors open for a reason 646 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: and best yet, he also doesn't stress about a ice 647 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: increase at twelve months because with the amazing agillionaire lifestyle 648 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,800 Speaker 1: comes an exquisite sense of tranquility most of the time. 649 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: Live like a billionaire gets straightforward pricing with a T 650 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: and T fiber internet that upgrades everything, no data caps, 651 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: no equipment fees, and no price increase in twelve months, 652 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,520 Speaker 1: limited availability in select areas. Visit add dot com slash 653 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: hypergig for details.