WEBVTT - Begin at the Ending 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.000 From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset I. 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:06.680 Am a loser if also we know wouldn't pay me either. 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:11.400 A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:12.840 a deadly tipping point. 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:16.240 In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide Pelissea. 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:20.520 A driver intentionally drove into a crowd, killing ten people. 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:25.279 Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:27.040 I will have my revenge. 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:30.840 Is very angry, expressing a lot of hatred towards women 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:33.680 and towards men who get all the women. 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.000 I just told my husband I know she's dead. 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:44.120 This is in Cells, a production of Kat's Studios and iHeartRadio, 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:52.280 Season one, Episode one. Begin at the ending. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:56.520 a producer at KATI Studios, with Stephanie Leideker, Gabriel Castillo, 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:01.240 Connor Powell, and Carolyn Miller. We've had the topic of 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:05.839 in cells, which stands for involuntary celibates, on our radar 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:10.400 for many years. There was an international media explosion after 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:14.560 Elliott Rogers's mass shooting on May twenty third, twenty fourteen, 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:16.440 in Ilavista, California. 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:19.880 Twenty two year old Elliott Rogers stabbed his three roommates 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:23.280 to death before embarking on a violent rampage which left 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:27.360 three more people dead and fourteen injured. Roger eventually crashed 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:29.880 his car and committed suicide. 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:33.399 In the ensuing decade, the largely online in cell community 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:38.520 has become wider spread and more insidious. A global pandemic 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:42.959 and increased isolation fueled this vitriaulic fire, and we've been 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:46.759 seeing an uptick in violence, including in the most recent case. 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:51.480 Katie's Studios has covered the Idaho student massacre, where in 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:53.680 cell ideology potentially played a. 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:58.520 Part, sources saying that Coburger made chauvinistic and condescending remarks 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.400 towards women at Washington State. Apparently, Coburger said that men 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:05.360 would take women's jobs because they weren't as smart at 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:05.880 one point. 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.720 We've gotten to this point with Brian Coburger because we're 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.800 still looking for a motive, and because these were attractive 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:16.160 young women, one with their boyfriend. So I think it's 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:18.200 not a foreign leap for a lot of people to 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:20.760 question if Brian Coburger is an inseel. 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:26.519 Here's Stephanie and crime analyst Body Moven. 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:32.320 In cell stands for involuntarily celibate and the involuntarily is 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:36.320 you know important here. They basically blame women for being celibate, 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:39.720 that they're still virgins, that they haven't been given the 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.919 right amount of attention from women for whatever reason they're 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:45.960 social standing, maybe the way they look, the way they talk, 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.919 the way they walk, any any number of reasons women 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:52.320 are blamed for them being celibate. You know, some are 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:55.680 just very lonely and you know, have a community online 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:58.560 and where they can commiserate with other in cells and 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:01.080 you know, maybe feel better about themselves that they're not 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:01.919 alone in this world. 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:05.080 We've been following in cells for many, many years, but 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.680 it really exploded on the scene when Netflix had their 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:13.200 documentary series Adolescence at its core that was about in 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:16.120 cell ideology. We heard a tinge of it. When Brian 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:19.760 Coberger was first arrested for the Idaho student murders, he 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:25.280 too shared in similar ideology. He was never officially called 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:28.279 an in cell but it really opened up the conversation. 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:31.880 But suddenly it's here and we're seeing it in real time. 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:35.400 It's a very sad situation, right. You don't want your 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:38.680 kid to be sad to be you know this mentally 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:42.320 entrenched in this subculture that basically says, you know that 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:44.800 they're they're not good enough, So you do want to 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.280 recognize it. Not only so they don't come, you know, 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:49.760 violent against women, but you don't want, you don't your 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:52.080 kid to end up this way. So it's important that 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.240 we get into the stuff so that even mothers can 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.440 start recognizing these things. Even as we're making this podcast now, 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:02.320 Charlie Kirk was just assassinated. He's a conservative analyst and 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:05.760 his murderer allegedly was radicalized online. 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:09.120 But why behind this? Again, we're all drawing lots of 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:13.440 conclusions and how someone like this could be radicalized, And 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:16.600 I think that those those are important questions for us 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:18.880 to ask and important questions for us to answer. 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:23.599 That is why we're covering it now, because it's happening here. 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.400 It's the kid in the basement at the house next 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:30.040 door who comes from a really nice family, went to college, 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:33.080 has been alone for way too long, and is suddenly 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:36.720 sucked down the wrong path. Boddy, this is something very 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.600 close to your heart, all of ours. Frankly, it's such 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:43.520 a complicated subculture now. These modern in cell groups often 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:47.240 gather on like forums, like reddits, four chan and like 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:49.680 they're having these discussions on the open Internet. Yeah, so 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:51.919 a lot of the conversations in these forums are filled 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:55.360 with like rage and anger, especially towards women that they 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:57.760 see attractive, socially successful. 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.000 You know that even men. The men are referred to 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:04.400 as chads and the women are referred to as staceys. 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.640 And these are the men and women that are successful 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:11.440 in life. They're dating, they're having sexual intercourse with people 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:14.600 they consider themselves like the nice guy. When you think 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:16.640 of an inseel, think of somebody that thinks of themselves 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.880 as nice and like but almost entitled to women. 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:23.919 The chads are the men who are whatever percentage the 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:27.040 in cels perceive of men who get all of the women. 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:31.640 And it's kind of this interesting dynamic. It's both hate 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:33.200 and an envy. 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:36.480 Right, that's the scary part that the jealous her age. Yeah, 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:37.839 the perfect intersection. 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:41.200 Not all in cells are violent. Some are just lonely 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:43.640 people and it is sad for them. You know, they 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:46.400 feel ostracized from, you know, the rest of the world. 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:50.120 They're lonely, they're celibate, they have no companionship, and the 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:53.560 only friends they have are those online that they've formed 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:56.880 in these communities. The problem is that those communities are 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.919 fostering that feeling and it's pumping them up and make 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:03.200 them even more, you know, the rahticas, making them more violent. 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:05.760 It's a pretty violent ideology though to some of it 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:08.720 his sense and guess what, on that little like forum, 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:12.760 potentially there are some scary people who are kind of 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:16.400 feeding off that as well, and air quotes grooming these 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:21.360 young men to radicalize as well. It's undeniably a pretty 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:22.240 radical group. 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.240 But it's important to know that not every inseel is 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:26.640 going to turn out to be violent. 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:27.280 All right. 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:30.479 There are some interesting studies coming out about who in 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.200 cels are, and the average age is the mid twenties, 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:36.000 around twenty six years old. They usually live with their 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:39.440 parents or their grandparents. Twenty five percent do live alone. 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:42.240 Only four percent of them are are employed full time. 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:45.920 Seventy five percent living with mom and dad or grandparents. 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.799 And by the way, post COVID, everybody was like locked 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:52.320 in their basements. If you were already experiencing some level 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:56.279 of loneliness or you were feeling disenfranchised, Now add you 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:58.200 know a year and a half, two years of isolation 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:01.719 to the equation, there's an uptick and I think it's obvious. 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.200 Why Yeah, when when COVID happened, it was like kind 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:06.720 of like the pressure cooker. It really kind of like 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.720 expanded this movement. Fifty eight percent of them are white, 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:13.560 forty two percent of people of color. Seventy three percent 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:17.560 report moderate to severe depression, and they blame it on 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.840 women for women not wanting them, you know, they're not 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:24.200 socially attractive, or they're awkward in some way, or you know, 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:28.400 or there's excuse after excuse after excuse, and so they 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:33.120 feel that women are responsible for their depression and their loneliness, 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:36.800 and that turns that can turn into rage, which can 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:40.960 turn violence. One more thing too, Forty eight percent scored 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:45.840 at the highest level on loneliness scales at arica alert 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:47.680 dot org, which is interesting. 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.360 I think the Brian Coburger case, I think it's a 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.800 real look at loneliness and it's really case scenario. You know, 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:56.640 you know that he was an odd guy with very 0:07:56.720 --> 0:08:00.760 little social interaction in friends. Not that that just it, obviously, 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.040 but if we're trying to unpack how to prevent these 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:09.040 types of isolated killers on the loose or in the making, 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:10.440 it's important stuff that we talk. 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:16.800 About in the course of our reporting and even anecdotally 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.480 in our lives, we found a shocking amount of people 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:23.000 who've never even heard the word in cell. That's why 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:26.440 we took on this project. We want parents, friends and 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.960 families to understand what could be happening and what danger 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:34.760 signs to look out for. The intent is not fear mongering. 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:38.000 We're going to look into crimes committed in the name 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:41.560 of in cells, share perspectives from different experts about in 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:45.920 cell ideology, the seriousness of algorithms in social media, and 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:49.920 just who is at risk for being radicalized. To understand 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.680 all perspectives, we've infiltrated the in cell community to gather 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:58.439 personal experiences with self identifying in cells. It's a complex 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:01.439 issue and all aspects need to be understood to get 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:03.840 to the root of the problem before we even begin 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:09.079 looking for solutions. I spoke with investigative journalist Connor Powell 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:12.960 about his experiences and online insell forums. 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:17.720 To get a better sense of the in sell community. 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:20.560 I started to all go onto different forums on different 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:24.319 social media sites, and I sort of discovered that there 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:29.000 were a couple different continuous themes. One is the one 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.160 that I think most people associate with the inseell community, 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:33.920 which is sort of very angry, expressing a lot of 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:38.840 hatred towards women, towards people in power, towards men who 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:42.040 they describe as chads who have money and just get 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.000 all the women. And then there's another group that I 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:48.479 think is a little bit less angry and more depressed, 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:53.040 people who are genuinely looking for connection and answers to 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:55.920 the feelings that they're having, to the issues that they 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:59.679 are facing. There obviously is some in between, and there 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.320 are people people who express anger and frustration that you 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:05.000 see and also looking for help. But there really does 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.240 seem to be this divide in the in cell community 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:09.880 between these two groups, and you really see a playout 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:13.360 on some of these forums where there is just vitriolic 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:18.240 anger at women, at society, at people with what these 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.560 groups and these people believe sort of all of the 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.560 advantages of in the world that they they hate them, 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.840 they want them gone, They joke about death, they joke 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:29.400 about rape. 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:35.040 Obviously, I had violent thoughts. I always held back, you know, 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:38.720 in real life thoughts of like women that I did 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:42.600 want to you know, Ripe, as a teenager, there was 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:45.280 quite a few women that I did want to break 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.240 their eyes, so they would be ugly and couldn't get 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:49.000 a hot boyfriend. 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:52.640 And then there's other Like I said, there's these other 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:55.760 in cels who they don't want that conversation. They want 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:59.679 a conversation about why is their life lacking the meaning 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:01.280 they think it should have, And a lot of that 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:05.800 revolves around inauthentic or a lack of relationships. They're looking 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.120 for a way to have some connection, but they're also 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:12.680 stuck behind the keyboard, behind computers. It feels like that's 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.840 where they lack that sort of connection and they're looking 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:16.480 for connection. 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:20.280 I asked Connor if it seemed like the men simply 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:23.280 felt more comfortable with the anonymity of being behind a 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:26.640 computer screen, or if they didn't like how they were 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:28.240 being received in public. 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:33.320 I think it's the way that they feel that they 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:35.559 aren't received the way that they think they should be. 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.240 There is this perception that I keep seeing in this 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:41.200 continual theme, which is that everyone else sort of gets 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:43.600 the looks in the room in terms of like the 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:47.199 positive looks, whereas I only get the negative looks, or 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:49.520 if they even bother to look at me. There's this 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:53.400 perceived notion that there is a group of people sort 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:55.800 of what they call the chads, the men who are 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:59.280 they get all the advantages, they have all the advantages. 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:04.040 They're muscular, they're full head of hair, and the in 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.320 cell community has like you can see that there's just 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.520 a lack of self confidence with a lot of these people, 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.640 and the confidence I think is missing for a lot 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:14.439 of different reasons. 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.800 I mentioned learning about some self identifying in cells describing 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.720 being out in the world as feeling like being inside 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:26.280 of a video game versus feeling more alive when they're 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:27.640 alone in their homes. 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:32.720 There is this sort of feeling that their real life 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.760 for them is behind the keyboard on a social media forum, 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:40.520 whether it's discord or the in cell community forms, or 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:43.640 even read it to some extent. And then you also 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:46.400 do see these themes where there are people who think 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:48.640 the real world is sort of the fake world for 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:50.760 them because they just they don't feel comfortable in it, 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:53.200 they don't know how to interact with people. You see 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.480 this regularly on in cell forms, which is that the 0:12:56.520 --> 0:13:01.520 real world is the inauthentic relationships and the online form 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:06.120 world are the more true the authentic relationships, and that 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:09.559 these online community forms are where in cells can sort 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:13.120 of be themselves without any of the social pressure that 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:14.960 they would face out in the real world. 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:19.640 I asked if there seemed to be a clash between 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:22.080 the men going onto forums looking for a glimmer of 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:27.280 hope for their situations versus others spewing vitriolic hate speech. 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:32.760 You sort of see these comments pieced together, which is 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:36.160 like the world is efed up, society's fed up, everything 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:39.320 is screwed up. And then just screw the women rape them. 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:41.679 And then there's these other men. A lot of them 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:45.679 are just teenage boys or young adolescent men, and they're struggling, 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.560 they're asking for help. They often don't have direction. There 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:52.280 are some of these in cells who want relationships, and 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:54.400 then these other ones who are just like, screw it, 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:56.120 it's never going to happen for me. I don't care. 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.680 It's everyone else's fault. I can't change it. But ultimately 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:01.360 they are all so people who jump in there and 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:03.720 on these forms that are just like, it's never going 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:05.640 to change for you. You are what you are. Don't 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:07.640 try to change the world should change for us. 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:13.400 I asked Connor if anything specific stood out or surprised 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:15.800 him during his time on the in cell forums. 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:20.480 I think what shocks me is the it's not the 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:26.320 level of just sort of awful discussions racist behavior, sexist behavior, 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.200 you know, just that you can sort of see anywhere 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:33.160 on social media. It's the balancing back and forth between the, Ah, 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:35.080 we're just joking, you know, this is just we're just 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:37.600 saying this for effect, and then there's other people who 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:39.960 are like, no, no, we're really saying this. And you can 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:43.520 see where a young, impressionable male can really get caught 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.320 up in what is this real? Should I be embracing 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.960 this as real? Or is this just people having fun? 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:51.120 And you can see this playing out in real time 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.280 where there is this continual debate between you know, we're 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:57.200 just being stupid, and the other flip side of that is, 0:14:57.520 --> 0:14:59.840 oh no, no, we're deadly serious. And these guys who 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:02.280 can a violence, there are heroes. 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.600 Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:33.720 a moment. On May twenty fourteen, self described in cel 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:37.000 Elliott Roger went on a killing spree at the University 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:42.160 of Santa Barbara in Ila Vista, California. He injured fourteen 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:50.360 innocent people and killed six more. Chang Hong, George Chen 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:57.760 Weihan Wang, Catherine Cooper, Veronica Weiss, and Chris Michaels Martinez. 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:01.760 The ripple effects of this violin is far reaching and 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:06.480 for some lifelong. For this first episode, we decided to 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:09.720 begin at the ending and to look into the inevitable 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:15.880 fallout after online radicalization leads to senseless violence. Here's producer 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:19.600 Carolyn Miller speaking with Colleen Weiss, the mother of nineteen 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:24.240 year old Veronica Weiss. This is the first time she's 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:25.440 speaking out publicly. 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:34.040 I'm Colleen Weiss, and my daughter is Veronica Weiss. She 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:40.480 was killed by Ella Roger in Ila Vesta, May twenty third, 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:53.000 twenty fourteen. Veronica loved to be involved in everything. She 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:59.680 liked to try new things. Her freshman year, she played 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:04.399 four sports and figured out she really wanted to play 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:10.160 water polo, so she then proceeded to play water polo 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.719 every year throughout high school. She always made anything that 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:21.240 we did fun. I also have two sons that were 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:25.240 very close in age to her. They were just two 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:29.480 and three years younger than her, and we would have 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:33.239 people tell us that who has the best arm in 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:40.320 the Wise family, and they'd say Veronica. So she was 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:41.480 tough too. 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:42.040 She was. 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:47.440 You know, she was a competitor and very fierce about 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:51.600 protecting her friends and being a great friend. 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:54.200 And her favorite color was purple. 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:58.680 Oh one hundred percent. She made that known to us 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:04.080 when she was two or three, and she carried that forward. 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:08.679 Everyone knew that that was her favorite color. She was 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:14.080 just independent from a very early age. I remember when 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.560 she was five years old, we were living in California, 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:21.280 and she absolutely wanted to go visit her grandmother and 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:25.840 her aunts in Seattle. So we put her on a 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:30.399 plane by herself and she got up there and I 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:33.800 just I remember talking to her on the phone and 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.720 I asked her, do you miss me? And she said, oh, 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.480 well no, because I know I'm going to see you again. 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:45.080 And she was always just in the moment and that 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:49.800 was just her And it's just always kind of warmed 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:54.560 my heart because I know that she was just enjoying 0:18:54.680 --> 0:19:01.400 everything that she was doing. Really loved life, life, friends 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:08.560 and family, and very inclusive of any type of person. 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:14.000 There was no boundary or limits to you know, who 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.359 she would be friend or be kind to. 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:21.199 You've never interviewed about her before, have you? 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:22.760 I have not? 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:25.719 No, Why did you decide to do it? 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:33.720 Now after ten plus long years, I'm finally in kind 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:43.240 of that acceptance and able to just really appreciate her life. 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:45.679 So I'm in a much better place. 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:50.560 How about her brothers and her dad? Are they doing? Okay? 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.879 I think we're we're kind of all coming to that. 0:19:55.280 --> 0:20:00.320 It has been i'd say a long I want to 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:04.160 really use tortures as the word, but that's that's how 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:06.119 it felt at many points. 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:09.359 Okay, So let's go back to that day in May 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:15.000 twenty fourteen. Yes, how did that day play out for you? 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:19.399 How did you find out what happened? And Veronica was 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:20.200 involved in this? 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:29.679 Well, it was Memorial Day weekend and we had a 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:34.280 lot of plans that weekend. What actually happened is the 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:41.280 weekend before that, my husband had some ski passes for 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:45.399 Mammoth and I had told her about it, and she 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.119 just jumped at it and said, yes, I'll go with 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.280 you guys, just with me and my husband, her dad, 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:55.960 but going to Memorial Day, and this is what will 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.760 kind of you know, you don't you can't regret or 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:03.320 question this, But most likely she might have come home 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:06.480 Memorial Day weekend if she had if we hadn't gone 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:11.440 to Mammoth two weekends before. So it was Friday, Friday night. 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:16.120 We're having a great time holiday weekend, and we had 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:20.280 actually gone to bed somewhat early, about ten o'clock and 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:24.200 about eleven thirty, I got a call on my cell 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:28.560 phone and it was one of Veronica's sorority sisters and 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:31.760 she just said, I'm not sure if you know what's 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:36.240 going on up here. There's been some shootings and they 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:39.600 just wanted to know have you heard from Veronica? And 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:46.159 I just said no, and I got a little bit 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:50.280 more information. Of course, we turned on the TV started 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:55.160 calling some hospitals after I tried to call her multiple times. 0:21:55.400 --> 0:22:00.120 And I mean, right at that point, I knew something 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:03.520 was wrong. I just I knew right away that if 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:06.879 she could contact us, she would have, and I knew 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:10.359 she was right around the campus that night doing the 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:16.600 sorority functions. So at that point, my sons had come home, 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:19.720 and I just remember one of my sons saying to me, 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:24.280 who would want to kill Veronica? Like this is don't 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:27.080 be like this, just can't. She's going to be fine. 0:22:27.840 --> 0:22:30.919 And so we my husband and I got into the 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:35.240 car and drove up to UCSB or we drove to 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:42.119 the hospital around UCSB and there we found some of 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:45.720 the sorority sisters who were there with one of the 0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:51.159 girls who had been shot, who was with Veronica, but 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:57.600 there was no Veronica there, and at that point we 0:22:57.600 --> 0:23:02.120 were able to track her. I found and we could 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:06.480 see that her phone was sitting at one of the 0:23:06.560 --> 0:23:12.200 locations that they had indicated on the news that there had, 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:16.919 you know, been a shooting. So we drove over to 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:20.679 where as close as we could to where the phone 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:25.439 was and found a police officer over there said what 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:30.960 my daughter's name was? And I could just tell he 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:34.680 just looked at the name and just said, okay, well, 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:37.199 you know there's we need. You can sit in your 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:40.800 car and we'll come get you, you know when we can. 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:44.119 So it's just I I just told my husband, I 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:45.840 know she's she's dead. 0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:52.480 Let's stop here for another break. 0:23:53.400 --> 0:23:54.440 We'll be back in a moment. 0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:18.640 We're continuing the conversation between producer Carolyn Miller and Colleen Weiss. 0:24:19.280 --> 0:24:22.560 Colleen Weiss is the mother of nineteen year old Veronica Weiss. 0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:27.720 I remember we sat in the car close to the 0:24:27.800 --> 0:24:34.159 location almost all night. We knew what was going to happen. 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:41.439 And they didn't tell us much other than Veronica was killed. 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:47.679 There weren't really any details. It is so hard to remember. 0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:52.720 The only thing that stuck in my mind was one 0:24:52.760 --> 0:24:55.879 of the police officers said to me, this is the 0:24:56.040 --> 0:24:59.840 hardest part of my job, and I just thought, okay, 0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:05.360 thank you, I'm sorry for you. You know. I don't 0:25:05.400 --> 0:25:09.679 know why that just stuck with me. And I wouldn't 0:25:09.720 --> 0:25:14.560 say I was emotionless, but I just I couldn't do anything. 0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:16.800 I just kind of sat there. 0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:22.840 Did you get the chance to see her after that? 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:27.199 Well, they told us right away, something like this is 0:25:27.280 --> 0:25:31.000 not like you see on TV. We have a way 0:25:31.280 --> 0:25:36.640 of identifying bodies without you, don't you know, you don't 0:25:36.640 --> 0:25:39.879