1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset I. 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 2: Am a loser if also we know wouldn't pay me either. 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 3: A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 3: a deadly tipping point. 5 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 4: In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide Pelissea. 6 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 5: A driver intentionally drove into a crowd, killing ten people. 7 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 6: Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 6: I will have my revenge. 9 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 7: Is very angry, expressing a lot of hatred towards women 10 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 7: and towards men who get all the women. 11 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 8: I just told my husband I know she's dead. 12 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: This is in Cells, a production of Kat's Studios and iHeartRadio, 13 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: Season one, Episode one. Begin at the ending. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: a producer at KATI Studios, with Stephanie Leideker, Gabriel Castillo, 15 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: Connor Powell, and Carolyn Miller. We've had the topic of 16 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,839 Speaker 1: in cells, which stands for involuntary celibates, on our radar 17 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 1: for many years. There was an international media explosion after 18 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: Elliott Rogers's mass shooting on May twenty third, twenty fourteen, 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: in Ilavista, California. 20 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 9: Twenty two year old Elliott Rogers stabbed his three roommates 21 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 9: to death before embarking on a violent rampage which left 22 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 9: three more people dead and fourteen injured. Roger eventually crashed 23 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 9: his car and committed suicide. 24 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: In the ensuing decade, the largely online in cell community 25 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: has become wider spread and more insidious. A global pandemic 26 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: and increased isolation fueled this vitriaulic fire, and we've been 27 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: seeing an uptick in violence, including in the most recent case. 28 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: Katie's Studios has covered the Idaho student massacre, where in 29 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: cell ideology potentially played a. 30 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 10: Part, sources saying that Coburger made chauvinistic and condescending remarks 31 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 10: towards women at Washington State. Apparently, Coburger said that men 32 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 10: would take women's jobs because they weren't as smart at 33 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 10: one point. 34 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 11: We've gotten to this point with Brian Coburger because we're 35 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 11: still looking for a motive, and because these were attractive 36 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 11: young women, one with their boyfriend. So I think it's 37 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 11: not a foreign leap for a lot of people to 38 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 11: question if Brian Coburger is an inseel. 39 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:26,519 Speaker 1: Here's Stephanie and crime analyst Body Moven. 40 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 4: In cell stands for involuntarily celibate and the involuntarily is 41 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 4: you know important here. They basically blame women for being celibate, 42 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 4: that they're still virgins, that they haven't been given the 43 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 4: right amount of attention from women for whatever reason they're 44 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 4: social standing, maybe the way they look, the way they talk, 45 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 4: the way they walk, any any number of reasons women 46 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 4: are blamed for them being celibate. You know, some are 47 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 4: just very lonely and you know, have a community online 48 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 4: and where they can commiserate with other in cells and 49 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 4: you know, maybe feel better about themselves that they're not 50 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 4: alone in this world. 51 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 2: We've been following in cells for many, many years, but 52 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 2: it really exploded on the scene when Netflix had their 53 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 2: documentary series Adolescence at its core that was about in 54 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 2: cell ideology. We heard a tinge of it. When Brian 55 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 2: Coberger was first arrested for the Idaho student murders, he 56 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: too shared in similar ideology. He was never officially called 57 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,279 Speaker 2: an in cell but it really opened up the conversation. 58 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: But suddenly it's here and we're seeing it in real time. 59 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 2: It's a very sad situation, right. You don't want your 60 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 2: kid to be sad to be you know this mentally 61 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: entrenched in this subculture that basically says, you know that 62 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 2: they're they're not good enough, So you do want to 63 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 2: recognize it. Not only so they don't come, you know, 64 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: violent against women, but you don't want, you don't your 65 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 2: kid to end up this way. So it's important that 66 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 2: we get into the stuff so that even mothers can 67 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: start recognizing these things. Even as we're making this podcast now, 68 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk was just assassinated. He's a conservative analyst and 69 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 2: his murderer allegedly was radicalized online. 70 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 12: But why behind this? Again, we're all drawing lots of 71 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 12: conclusions and how someone like this could be radicalized, And 72 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 12: I think that those those are important questions for us 73 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 12: to ask and important questions for us to answer. 74 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 2: That is why we're covering it now, because it's happening here. 75 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 2: It's the kid in the basement at the house next 76 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 2: door who comes from a really nice family, went to college, 77 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 2: has been alone for way too long, and is suddenly 78 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 2: sucked down the wrong path. Boddy, this is something very 79 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 2: close to your heart, all of ours. Frankly, it's such 80 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: a complicated subculture now. These modern in cell groups often 81 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 2: gather on like forums, like reddits, four chan and like 82 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: they're having these discussions on the open Internet. Yeah, so 83 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 2: a lot of the conversations in these forums are filled 84 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 2: with like rage and anger, especially towards women that they 85 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: see attractive, socially successful. 86 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 4: You know that even men. The men are referred to 87 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 4: as chads and the women are referred to as staceys. 88 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 4: And these are the men and women that are successful 89 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 4: in life. They're dating, they're having sexual intercourse with people 90 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 4: they consider themselves like the nice guy. When you think 91 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 4: of an inseel, think of somebody that thinks of themselves 92 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 4: as nice and like but almost entitled to women. 93 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 1: The chads are the men who are whatever percentage the 94 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: in cels perceive of men who get all of the women. 95 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: And it's kind of this interesting dynamic. It's both hate 96 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: and an envy. 97 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 2: Right, that's the scary part that the jealous her age. Yeah, 98 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 2: the perfect intersection. 99 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 4: Not all in cells are violent. Some are just lonely 100 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 4: people and it is sad for them. You know, they 101 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 4: feel ostracized from, you know, the rest of the world. 102 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 4: They're lonely, they're celibate, they have no companionship, and the 103 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 4: only friends they have are those online that they've formed 104 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 4: in these communities. The problem is that those communities are 105 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 4: fostering that feeling and it's pumping them up and make 106 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 4: them even more, you know, the rahticas, making them more violent. 107 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 2: It's a pretty violent ideology though to some of it 108 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 2: his sense and guess what, on that little like forum, 109 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: potentially there are some scary people who are kind of 110 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 2: feeding off that as well, and air quotes grooming these 111 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 2: young men to radicalize as well. It's undeniably a pretty 112 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 2: radical group. 113 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 4: But it's important to know that not every inseel is 114 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 4: going to turn out to be violent. 115 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 8: All right. 116 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 4: There are some interesting studies coming out about who in 117 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 4: cels are, and the average age is the mid twenties, 118 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 4: around twenty six years old. They usually live with their 119 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 4: parents or their grandparents. Twenty five percent do live alone. 120 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 4: Only four percent of them are are employed full time. 121 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 2: Seventy five percent living with mom and dad or grandparents. 122 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,799 Speaker 2: And by the way, post COVID, everybody was like locked 123 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 2: in their basements. If you were already experiencing some level 124 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 2: of loneliness or you were feeling disenfranchised, Now add you 125 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 2: know a year and a half, two years of isolation 126 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 2: to the equation, there's an uptick and I think it's obvious. 127 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 4: Why Yeah, when when COVID happened, it was like kind 128 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 4: of like the pressure cooker. It really kind of like 129 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 4: expanded this movement. Fifty eight percent of them are white, 130 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 4: forty two percent of people of color. Seventy three percent 131 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 4: report moderate to severe depression, and they blame it on 132 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 4: women for women not wanting them, you know, they're not 133 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 4: socially attractive, or they're awkward in some way, or you know, 134 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 4: or there's excuse after excuse after excuse, and so they 135 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 4: feel that women are responsible for their depression and their loneliness, 136 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 4: and that turns that can turn into rage, which can 137 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 4: turn violence. One more thing too, Forty eight percent scored 138 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 4: at the highest level on loneliness scales at arica alert 139 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 4: dot org, which is interesting. 140 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: I think the Brian Coburger case, I think it's a 141 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: real look at loneliness and it's really case scenario. You know, 142 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: you know that he was an odd guy with very 143 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 2: little social interaction in friends. Not that that just it, obviously, 144 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 2: but if we're trying to unpack how to prevent these 145 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: types of isolated killers on the loose or in the making, 146 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 2: it's important stuff that we talk. 147 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: About in the course of our reporting and even anecdotally 148 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: in our lives, we found a shocking amount of people 149 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: who've never even heard the word in cell. That's why 150 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: we took on this project. We want parents, friends and 151 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: families to understand what could be happening and what danger 152 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: signs to look out for. The intent is not fear mongering. 153 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: We're going to look into crimes committed in the name 154 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 1: of in cells, share perspectives from different experts about in 155 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: cell ideology, the seriousness of algorithms in social media, and 156 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: just who is at risk for being radicalized. To understand 157 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: all perspectives, we've infiltrated the in cell community to gather 158 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 1: personal experiences with self identifying in cells. It's a complex 159 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 1: issue and all aspects need to be understood to get 160 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: to the root of the problem before we even begin 161 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: looking for solutions. I spoke with investigative journalist Connor Powell 162 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: about his experiences and online insell forums. 163 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 7: To get a better sense of the in sell community. 164 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 7: I started to all go onto different forums on different 165 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 7: social media sites, and I sort of discovered that there 166 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 7: were a couple different continuous themes. One is the one 167 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 7: that I think most people associate with the inseell community, 168 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 7: which is sort of very angry, expressing a lot of 169 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 7: hatred towards women, towards people in power, towards men who 170 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 7: they describe as chads who have money and just get 171 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 7: all the women. And then there's another group that I 172 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,479 Speaker 7: think is a little bit less angry and more depressed, 173 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 7: people who are genuinely looking for connection and answers to 174 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 7: the feelings that they're having, to the issues that they 175 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 7: are facing. There obviously is some in between, and there 176 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 7: are people people who express anger and frustration that you 177 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 7: see and also looking for help. But there really does 178 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 7: seem to be this divide in the in cell community 179 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 7: between these two groups, and you really see a playout 180 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 7: on some of these forums where there is just vitriolic 181 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 7: anger at women, at society, at people with what these 182 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 7: groups and these people believe sort of all of the 183 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 7: advantages of in the world that they they hate them, 184 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 7: they want them gone, They joke about death, they joke 185 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 7: about rape. 186 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 6: Obviously, I had violent thoughts. I always held back, you know, 187 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 6: in real life thoughts of like women that I did 188 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 6: want to you know, Ripe, as a teenager, there was 189 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 6: quite a few women that I did want to break 190 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 6: their eyes, so they would be ugly and couldn't get 191 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 6: a hot boyfriend. 192 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 7: And then there's other Like I said, there's these other 193 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 7: in cels who they don't want that conversation. They want 194 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 7: a conversation about why is their life lacking the meaning 195 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 7: they think it should have, And a lot of that 196 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 7: revolves around inauthentic or a lack of relationships. They're looking 197 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 7: for a way to have some connection, but they're also 198 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 7: stuck behind the keyboard, behind computers. It feels like that's 199 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 7: where they lack that sort of connection and they're looking 200 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 7: for connection. 201 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: I asked Connor if it seemed like the men simply 202 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: felt more comfortable with the anonymity of being behind a 203 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: computer screen, or if they didn't like how they were 204 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: being received in public. 205 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 7: I think it's the way that they feel that they 206 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,559 Speaker 7: aren't received the way that they think they should be. 207 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 7: There is this perception that I keep seeing in this 208 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 7: continual theme, which is that everyone else sort of gets 209 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 7: the looks in the room in terms of like the 210 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,199 Speaker 7: positive looks, whereas I only get the negative looks, or 211 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 7: if they even bother to look at me. There's this 212 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 7: perceived notion that there is a group of people sort 213 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 7: of what they call the chads, the men who are 214 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 7: they get all the advantages, they have all the advantages. 215 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 7: They're muscular, they're full head of hair, and the in 216 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 7: cell community has like you can see that there's just 217 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 7: a lack of self confidence with a lot of these people, 218 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 7: and the confidence I think is missing for a lot 219 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 7: of different reasons. 220 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: I mentioned learning about some self identifying in cells describing 221 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: being out in the world as feeling like being inside 222 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: of a video game versus feeling more alive when they're 223 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: alone in their homes. 224 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 7: There is this sort of feeling that their real life 225 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 7: for them is behind the keyboard on a social media forum, 226 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 7: whether it's discord or the in cell community forms, or 227 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 7: even read it to some extent. And then you also 228 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 7: do see these themes where there are people who think 229 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 7: the real world is sort of the fake world for 230 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 7: them because they just they don't feel comfortable in it, 231 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 7: they don't know how to interact with people. You see 232 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 7: this regularly on in cell forms, which is that the 233 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 7: real world is the inauthentic relationships and the online form 234 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 7: world are the more true the authentic relationships, and that 235 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 7: these online community forms are where in cells can sort 236 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 7: of be themselves without any of the social pressure that 237 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 7: they would face out in the real world. 238 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: I asked if there seemed to be a clash between 239 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: the men going onto forums looking for a glimmer of 240 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: hope for their situations versus others spewing vitriolic hate speech. 241 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 7: You sort of see these comments pieced together, which is 242 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 7: like the world is efed up, society's fed up, everything 243 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 7: is screwed up. And then just screw the women rape them. 244 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 7: And then there's these other men. A lot of them 245 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 7: are just teenage boys or young adolescent men, and they're struggling, 246 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 7: they're asking for help. They often don't have direction. There 247 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 7: are some of these in cells who want relationships, and 248 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 7: then these other ones who are just like, screw it, 249 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 7: it's never going to happen for me. I don't care. 250 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 7: It's everyone else's fault. I can't change it. But ultimately 251 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 7: they are all so people who jump in there and 252 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 7: on these forms that are just like, it's never going 253 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 7: to change for you. You are what you are. Don't 254 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 7: try to change the world should change for us. 255 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: I asked Connor if anything specific stood out or surprised 256 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: him during his time on the in cell forums. 257 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 7: I think what shocks me is the it's not the 258 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 7: level of just sort of awful discussions racist behavior, sexist behavior, 259 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 7: you know, just that you can sort of see anywhere 260 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 7: on social media. It's the balancing back and forth between the, Ah, 261 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 7: we're just joking, you know, this is just we're just 262 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 7: saying this for effect, and then there's other people who 263 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 7: are like, no, no, we're really saying this. And you can 264 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 7: see where a young, impressionable male can really get caught 265 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 7: up in what is this real? Should I be embracing 266 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 7: this as real? Or is this just people having fun? 267 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 7: And you can see this playing out in real time 268 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 7: where there is this continual debate between you know, we're 269 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 7: just being stupid, and the other flip side of that is, 270 00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 7: oh no, no, we're deadly serious. And these guys who 271 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 7: can a violence, there are heroes. 272 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 273 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: a moment. On May twenty fourteen, self described in cel 274 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: Elliott Roger went on a killing spree at the University 275 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: of Santa Barbara in Ila Vista, California. He injured fourteen 276 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: innocent people and killed six more. Chang Hong, George Chen 277 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: Weihan Wang, Catherine Cooper, Veronica Weiss, and Chris Michaels Martinez. 278 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: The ripple effects of this violin is far reaching and 279 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: for some lifelong. For this first episode, we decided to 280 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: begin at the ending and to look into the inevitable 281 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: fallout after online radicalization leads to senseless violence. Here's producer 282 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: Carolyn Miller speaking with Colleen Weiss, the mother of nineteen 283 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: year old Veronica Weiss. This is the first time she's 284 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: speaking out publicly. 285 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 8: I'm Colleen Weiss, and my daughter is Veronica Weiss. She 286 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 8: was killed by Ella Roger in Ila Vesta, May twenty third, 287 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 8: twenty fourteen. Veronica loved to be involved in everything. She 288 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 8: liked to try new things. Her freshman year, she played 289 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 8: four sports and figured out she really wanted to play 290 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 8: water polo, so she then proceeded to play water polo 291 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,719 Speaker 8: every year throughout high school. She always made anything that 292 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 8: we did fun. I also have two sons that were 293 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 8: very close in age to her. They were just two 294 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 8: and three years younger than her, and we would have 295 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,239 Speaker 8: people tell us that who has the best arm in 296 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 8: the Wise family, and they'd say Veronica. So she was 297 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 8: tough too. 298 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 6: She was. 299 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 8: You know, she was a competitor and very fierce about 300 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 8: protecting her friends and being a great friend. 301 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 3: And her favorite color was purple. 302 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 8: Oh one hundred percent. She made that known to us 303 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 8: when she was two or three, and she carried that forward. 304 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 8: Everyone knew that that was her favorite color. She was 305 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 8: just independent from a very early age. I remember when 306 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 8: she was five years old, we were living in California, 307 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 8: and she absolutely wanted to go visit her grandmother and 308 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 8: her aunts in Seattle. So we put her on a 309 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 8: plane by herself and she got up there and I 310 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 8: just I remember talking to her on the phone and 311 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 8: I asked her, do you miss me? And she said, oh, 312 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 8: well no, because I know I'm going to see you again. 313 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 8: And she was always just in the moment and that 314 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 8: was just her And it's just always kind of warmed 315 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 8: my heart because I know that she was just enjoying 316 00:18:54,680 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 8: everything that she was doing. Really loved life, life, friends 317 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 8: and family, and very inclusive of any type of person. 318 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 8: There was no boundary or limits to you know, who 319 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 8: she would be friend or be kind to. 320 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 3: You've never interviewed about her before, have you? 321 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 8: I have not? 322 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:25,719 Speaker 3: No, Why did you decide to do it? 323 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 8: Now after ten plus long years, I'm finally in kind 324 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 8: of that acceptance and able to just really appreciate her life. 325 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 8: So I'm in a much better place. 326 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 3: How about her brothers and her dad? Are they doing? Okay? 327 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 8: I think we're we're kind of all coming to that. 328 00:19:55,280 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 8: It has been i'd say a long I want to 329 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 8: really use tortures as the word, but that's that's how 330 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 8: it felt at many points. 331 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 3: Okay, So let's go back to that day in May 332 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 3: twenty fourteen. Yes, how did that day play out for you? 333 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 3: How did you find out what happened? And Veronica was 334 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 3: involved in this? 335 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 8: Well, it was Memorial Day weekend and we had a 336 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 8: lot of plans that weekend. What actually happened is the 337 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 8: weekend before that, my husband had some ski passes for 338 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 8: Mammoth and I had told her about it, and she 339 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 8: just jumped at it and said, yes, I'll go with 340 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 8: you guys, just with me and my husband, her dad, 341 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 8: but going to Memorial Day, and this is what will 342 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 8: kind of you know, you don't you can't regret or 343 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 8: question this, But most likely she might have come home 344 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 8: Memorial Day weekend if she had if we hadn't gone 345 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 8: to Mammoth two weekends before. So it was Friday, Friday night. 346 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 8: We're having a great time holiday weekend, and we had 347 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 8: actually gone to bed somewhat early, about ten o'clock and 348 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 8: about eleven thirty, I got a call on my cell 349 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 8: phone and it was one of Veronica's sorority sisters and 350 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 8: she just said, I'm not sure if you know what's 351 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 8: going on up here. There's been some shootings and they 352 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 8: just wanted to know have you heard from Veronica? And 353 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 8: I just said no, and I got a little bit 354 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 8: more information. Of course, we turned on the TV started 355 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 8: calling some hospitals after I tried to call her multiple times. 356 00:21:55,400 --> 00:22:00,120 Speaker 8: And I mean, right at that point, I knew something 357 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 8: was wrong. I just I knew right away that if 358 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 8: she could contact us, she would have, and I knew 359 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 8: she was right around the campus that night doing the 360 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 8: sorority functions. So at that point, my sons had come home, 361 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 8: and I just remember one of my sons saying to me, 362 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 8: who would want to kill Veronica? Like this is don't 363 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 8: be like this, just can't. She's going to be fine. 364 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 8: And so we my husband and I got into the 365 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 8: car and drove up to UCSB or we drove to 366 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 8: the hospital around UCSB and there we found some of 367 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 8: the sorority sisters who were there with one of the 368 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 8: girls who had been shot, who was with Veronica, but 369 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 8: there was no Veronica there, and at that point we 370 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 8: were able to track her. I found and we could 371 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 8: see that her phone was sitting at one of the 372 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 8: locations that they had indicated on the news that there had, 373 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 8: you know, been a shooting. So we drove over to 374 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 8: where as close as we could to where the phone 375 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 8: was and found a police officer over there said what 376 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 8: my daughter's name was? And I could just tell he 377 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 8: just looked at the name and just said, okay, well, 378 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 8: you know there's we need. You can sit in your 379 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 8: car and we'll come get you, you know when we can. 380 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 8: So it's just I I just told my husband, I 381 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 8: know she's she's dead. 382 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another break. 383 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 8: We'll be back in a moment. 384 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 1: We're continuing the conversation between producer Carolyn Miller and Colleen Weiss. 385 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: Colleen Weiss is the mother of nineteen year old Veronica Weiss. 386 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 8: I remember we sat in the car close to the 387 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 8: location almost all night. We knew what was going to happen. 388 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 8: And they didn't tell us much other than Veronica was killed. 389 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 8: There weren't really any details. It is so hard to remember. 390 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 8: The only thing that stuck in my mind was one 391 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 8: of the police officers said to me, this is the 392 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 8: hardest part of my job, and I just thought, okay, 393 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 8: thank you, I'm sorry for you. You know. I don't 394 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 8: know why that just stuck with me. And I wouldn't 395 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 8: say I was emotionless, but I just I couldn't do anything. 396 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 8: I just kind of sat there. 397 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 3: Did you get the chance to see her after that? 398 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 8: Well, they told us right away, something like this is 399 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 8: not like you see on TV. We have a way 400 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 8: of identifying bodies without you, don't you know, you don't 401 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 8: have to come in. And I did not want to 402 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:47,360 Speaker 8: see her. I didn't. I didn't want any memory like that. 403 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 8: And it maybe seems odd, but I am so glad 404 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 8: that I never have to go back and have that 405 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 8: picture mind, because I only have beautiful memories and I 406 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 8: know it was a terrible thing that happened to her. 407 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 3: How was your husband and your sons that night? How 408 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 3: did they react? 409 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 8: I mean, my husband just immediately broke down. We went 410 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 8: kind of straight home after this happened. We wanted to 411 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:30,880 Speaker 8: get home to the boys and we just I remember 412 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 8: we just all got into our bed and we were 413 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 8: just kind of holding each other or just laying there. 414 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 8: It just was terrible. 415 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 3: The next couple of days after Veronica was killed, how 416 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 3: do you all together get each other through it? 417 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,959 Speaker 8: Not very well? Not very well at all. I do 418 00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 8: remember I was in shock for i'd say at least 419 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 8: a couple of days. And then we started having all 420 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 8: these this family coming in and people contacting us, and 421 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 8: it was it was chaos. 422 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 3: Knowing that the perpetrator that we still don't know anything about, 423 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 3: did you know at that point that he had taken 424 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 3: his own life, that he had shot himself. 425 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 5: After yes, okay, yes, okay, so we we knew pretty quick. 426 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 5: And I that is one thing that I also, you 427 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 5: find everything to be grateful for. 428 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 8: I'm grateful that it wasn't unknown or that we had 429 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 8: to go through a trial. 430 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 3: Were you angry at all? 431 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 8: I never had those feelings. I never, I never did. 432 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 8: I know, everyone has circumstances, and I just I thought 433 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 8: this kid, I'm going to call him a kid, but 434 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 8: he wasn't a kid. Well, he was very young. He 435 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,479 Speaker 8: was in so much pain, and I look and say, 436 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 8: my daughter was so happy, so focused on what she 437 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 8: was doing and what she wanted to do. That it 438 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 8: just no, I did not I didn't feel angry. I 439 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 8: never had that. 440 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 3: So would that all media coverage? How did that affect 441 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 3: your grieving process? 442 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 8: During that whole period, I felt like I was still 443 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 8: in some kind of shock and I just was going 444 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 8: through the motions. They put together a memorial at Weslake 445 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 8: High School immediately, I think it was the Monday after 446 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 8: it happened, so we needed to go up to the 447 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 8: high school and and it was just packed and it 448 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 8: was it was beautiful what they did. And then I 449 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 8: know when we were leaving, I saw all the water 450 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:16,719 Speaker 8: polo girls all got in the pool afterwards, which was 451 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 8: pretty cool. 452 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 3: I read an article about that and how everybody showed. 453 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 8: Up wearing purple yes yes in honor of her. 454 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 3: How proud does that make you of Veronica? 455 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 8: Oh? Immensely, immensely. It just it was. I mean, it 456 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 8: gave me a lot of warmth. And I know she 457 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 8: would have loved it too. 458 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 3: So what was the hardest part of navigating that immediate aftermath? 459 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 8: Many days of just not wanting to be around, not 460 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 8: wanting to feel that pain, just seeing how it affected 461 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 8: the boys and my husband and I just didn't know 462 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 8: how we would ever go back to normal. I didn't know. 463 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 8: I couldn't see a path forward, and it just felt 464 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 8: very desperate. It's very hard. 465 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 3: Let's get into what we know about Elliott Roger? Yes, 466 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 3: how did you learn about him? 467 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 8: Just by reading things on the internet? And I remember 468 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 8: reading a couple pages of the Manifesto at one point 469 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 8: and again just kind of turned away from that. I 470 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 8: just I spent many years where I didn't want to 471 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 8: hear anything about him. I really didn't. So it has 472 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 8: only been recently, in the last year that I've learned 473 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 8: just how much he's revered or whatever it is. And again, 474 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 8: that's just very sad, very sad. 475 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 3: He was considered what they call an in cell. Yes, 476 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 3: had you ever heard that term before? No, no idea 477 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 3: what that even is? 478 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 8: No? Not at the time. 479 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 3: How much of that did you get into when you're 480 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 3: learning about Elliott Roger? 481 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 8: Very very high level. I just wanted to focus on 482 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 8: her memory, but you couldn't. Throughout the years, it became 483 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 8: where you couldn't watch a movie or a TV show 484 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 8: without it became like, oh, well, yeah, this is just 485 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 8: part of our culture now. 486 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, so he committed to the side. Afterwards, you didn't 487 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 3: get to get a guilty verdict, he didn't get a 488 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 3: prison sentence. Did you ever feel robbed of that? 489 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 8: Absolutely not. I thought that was probably the best ending 490 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 8: for him. I knew enough to know how how long 491 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 8: he had suffered from different problems and never been accepted 492 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 8: or just different things like that. And no, I do 493 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 8: think about the people that have to face their sons 494 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 8: or their daughters killer in court, and that would be 495 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 8: the last thing I would want to do when there. 496 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 3: Is a trial. You know, there's graphic photos that they 497 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 3: show from crime scenes, and that was one thing you 498 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 3: said you never wanted to see. 499 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 8: I didn't if I could just add as a mother, 500 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 8: you know, sometimes you question yourself, like I thought, what 501 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 8: mother would not want to see every part of their 502 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 8: child or what had happened to them or so I 503 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 8: questioned that for a little bit, but then had to 504 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 8: go back to, well, no, this is me personally, this 505 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 8: is I have to deal with this, and I shouldn't 506 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 8: feel bad about not wanting to do that and not 507 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 8: doing it. 508 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 3: You know, you said you have nothing but great, beautiful 509 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 3: memories of her, and that's what that's what's important, that's 510 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 3: what matters. 511 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 8: Yes, yes, so knowing this. 512 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 3: This world that he was in and now he's become 513 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 3: like this martyr for this community because there have been 514 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 3: other incidents where people have gotten very violent, there's been 515 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 3: other murders and would use his name as like a 516 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 3: hero and they looked up to him. How does that 517 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 3: make you feel when you know that people are putting 518 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 3: him on a pedestal for something so evil even. 519 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 8: I mean again, I feel sadness for those people. I 520 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 8: just feel sadness for them, sadness for their parents. I mean, 521 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 8: I could have a child that ended up being like that. 522 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 8: You know, you don't. You would hope not, but you 523 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 8: never know. And again, I just it's it's very sad, 524 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:16,760 Speaker 8: very sad. 525 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 3: A lot of people would be just mad and angry 526 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 3: and cursing in every which way. But you said you 527 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:26,439 Speaker 3: said that you felt sorry for him. 528 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 8: I mean, I think about it seemed twenty four to 529 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 8: seven for this person. I mean, you don't know that, 530 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 8: but he was feeling desperate, sad. Just I don't want 531 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 8: anyone to feel like that. I don't naturally have that emotion. 532 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 8: I do get mad, but at things, but when it 533 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 8: comes to people and what they do. I mean, this 534 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 8: life can be very difficult and people look experience very 535 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 8: bizarre things, and this world is more and more challenging 536 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:12,240 Speaker 8: each day, and the Internet and it's it's very complicated. 537 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 3: Do you keep any trinkets of hers around? 538 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 8: I do? I do? Can I grab it? 539 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 3: Yes? Please? 540 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 5: Do? 541 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:29,839 Speaker 8: Okay? So, I mean her freshman year, she wasn't good 542 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 8: enough to play water polo at UCSB, which didn't bother 543 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 8: her at all. Just a week before she died, she said, Mom, 544 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 8: I really I'm going to start swimming again, but I 545 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 8: don't have a cap or goggles. So I said, we'll 546 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 8: just order them on our Amazon get you know, get them. 547 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 8: And I remember it was a week before. When we 548 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 8: went to pack up her room, it was so organized 549 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 8: and neat, like everything was in its place. But I 550 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 8: found her little sport bag with goggles and her and 551 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 8: a cap that she already had, and it just like 552 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 8: when she said she was going to do something, it 553 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 8: just it was done. And so these are actually right 554 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 8: on my bed. So it's like little things like that 555 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 8: that really warm your heart. 556 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 1: Next time on in cells it is. 557 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 7: Absolutely a recipe to stay home, not go out, only 558 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 7: have online community. 559 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 3: He had planned this. 560 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 2: There's clear evidence at least a week prior, including a 561 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 2: note in his notes heap on his phone entitled murder suicide. 562 00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 11: Most of their anger, most of their hatred is actually 563 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 11: reserved for the women. 564 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 4: So this idea of six six six six feet tall 565 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 4: six figure incomes six inches plus. 566 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 7: That's the ideal man. 567 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow 568 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at KT Underscore Studios. In Cells is 569 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: produced by Stephanie Leideger, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. 570 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: Additional producing by Connor Powell and Carolyn Miller, editing by 571 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: Jeff Tooi music by Vanikore Studios. In Cells is a 572 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: production of KAT Studios and iHeart Radio. For more podcasts 573 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 574 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.