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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes, and.

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Speaker 3: I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new

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Speaker 3: insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 4: Hey, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing well. How about you?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 4: I'm doing good?

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm I had a very rare opportunity to

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Speaker 3: be home alone for a stretch of a few days.

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Speaker 3: It was just me and Cora, and I was like,

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Speaker 3: what am I going to do? And you know what

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Speaker 3: I did something I never do is I binge watched

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Speaker 3: a show.

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Speaker 2: What I thought you didn't even own a television, pall holes,

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Speaker 2: Just you and music and hard rock and that's it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, you know, it was just kind of nice

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Speaker 3: to kind of sit there and in the dark.

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Speaker 4: I mean, this is going to sound really bad here,

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Speaker 4: I am home alone.

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Speaker 3: So in the dark, in my basement, I literally just

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Speaker 3: ran across. There was a novel series by Lee Childs

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Speaker 3: in which the main character is Jack Reacher, who's a

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Speaker 3: former military police army investigator who's just decided he's kind

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Speaker 3: of roaming around the country sort of like in this

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Speaker 3: transient state and finds trouble, you know, along the way.

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Speaker 3: And that's how these various stories are. And in fact,

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Speaker 3: several movies starring Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher were made,

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Speaker 3: and the fans of the novels were a little bit disappointed.

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Speaker 3: Not that Tom Cruise did a bad job with the character,

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Speaker 3: it's just that the man that plays Jack Reacher the

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Speaker 3: way the characters written as a huge guy. He's just

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Speaker 3: a big, powerful guy, and that's not Tom Cruise, you know,

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Speaker 3: And so a lot of the fans of the book

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Speaker 3: were a little disappointed in the casting. But turns out

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Speaker 3: there's this Amazon original called Reacher and this actor who

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Speaker 3: I didn't know, but he fits the Jack Reacher part.

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Speaker 3: It was fun, you know, it was just fun watching

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Speaker 3: this guy just tear up this town while investigating you know,

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Speaker 3: corruption and these these homicides that are occurring, and you know,

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Speaker 3: it was just it was good escapism for me.

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Speaker 2: I have thought about what your TV show choice, if

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Speaker 2: you were to ever watch TV, would be, and I

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Speaker 2: guess not Little Women. I thought it would be something

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Speaker 2: along those lines. Not that I don't dismiss little and

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Speaker 2: so this makes a lot of sense. I think sometimes

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Speaker 2: it's so nice to unplug. And I've said this before

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Speaker 2: for somebody who has two kids and three podcasts and

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Speaker 2: a book in an audiobook and of course a full

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Speaker 2: time faculty position. I watch a lot of television, do

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Speaker 2: you really I do? I do so. I every once

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Speaker 2: in a while I'll get on a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a bender with a Real Housewives franchise. I don't need

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Speaker 2: any judgment.

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Speaker 3: Paul Oh, the judgment has already occurred swiftly.

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Speaker 2: I like the drama. I like the accents. I lived

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Speaker 2: in New York for a long time.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 2: I mean you can look at it from like a

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Speaker 2: very interesting socioeconomic level of analysis, and so anyway, I

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Speaker 2: just think it's hilarious and sad and hilarious again. So,

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Speaker 2: and I also like a lot of fraud shows, like

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Speaker 2: The Firefest on Netflix. There's something really good on Hulu

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Speaker 2: about We Were, which I had never seen. Those are

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Speaker 2: my like dirty little pleasures. Is The Housewives. It's not

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Speaker 2: as much murder as you would think, but I do

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Speaker 2: feel like I have to, you know, keep on top

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Speaker 2: of all of it.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know why I get that because I don't

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Speaker 3: really I don't watch the true crime shows for me,

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Speaker 3: because everybody's asking me. You know, there's this series out

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Speaker 3: there about this particular case or this other case, you know,

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Speaker 3: like the staircase.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's one that people have brought up.

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Speaker 3: And for me, it's like, you know, I've got so

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Speaker 3: involved in my own cases. It's just I don't want

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Speaker 3: to consume some other cases, especially when I can't have

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Speaker 3: access to the official information. It's just frustrating, you know.

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Speaker 3: So for me, if I'm watching a show now, it's

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Speaker 3: it's probably going to be more like this Reacher series.

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Speaker 3: It's something that allows me to escape. Yeah, this is

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Speaker 3: where I'm at. But yeah, I wouldn't I pegged you

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Speaker 3: for the Housewives, The Real Housewives.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that surprises me a bit.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about this story coming up, because we

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Speaker 2: are switching from you something that is lighthearted to pretty serious.

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Speaker 2: We talk about how people of color are underrepresented in

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Speaker 2: true crime, both as victims and in the stories of

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Speaker 2: history as the killer, and we have both here. And

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Speaker 2: it is a very, very big mystery, and I think

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Speaker 2: you're going to enjoy it because there's a big, big

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Speaker 2: question mark, and it is a lot about dissolving the

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Speaker 2: ideas that we have about women of color in the

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Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds. We'll just see what you think about all

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Speaker 2: of this. There's domestic violence, there's just a lot of

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Speaker 2: stuff happening.

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Speaker 4: Sounds good.

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Speaker 2: Let's set the scene. We are in eighteen eighty seven Eddington, Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 2: There's a white carpenter who's heading into work and he

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Speaker 2: sees something laying on the bank of a nearby pond

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Speaker 2: in Eddington. He takes a closer look. It is a headless,

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Speaker 2: armless human torso. And now that I'm thinking about this,

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Speaker 2: if I say human torso, doesn't that mean it is

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Speaker 2: headless and armless? Is that?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 2: The details are necessary. If I just say torso, are

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Speaker 2: you gonna assume it's headless and armless and legless? If

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Speaker 2: it's just a torso, that's the case. Just a torso, Okay,

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Speaker 2: so here are some of the details. Already it has

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Speaker 2: been cut off above the pelvis, roughly four inches above

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Speaker 2: the hip bone, leaving distended bowels. Already this story man

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Speaker 2: distended bowels protruding from the abdomen. No other body parts

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Speaker 2: are found ever. This is it. This is all you get.

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Speaker 2: This this torso. It has been really roughly cut like

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Speaker 2: jiggy jaggedy everywhere. Nobody seems to have done this with

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Speaker 2: any sort of skill, and that comes up as pertinent

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Speaker 2: in just a minute. My question is I've never understood

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Speaker 2: the person who dismembers as a killer. If you want

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Speaker 2: to hide identity, removing the fingerprints in the head, if

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Speaker 2: we're in the eighteen hundreds in the DNA analysis, isn't

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Speaker 2: there if we remove the sadistic part of this, I've

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Speaker 2: never understood what the real purpose of this is.

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Speaker 3: Well, people dismember for a multitude of reasons. As you mentioned,

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Speaker 3: part of it is to delay or prevent identification of

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Speaker 3: the remains. You also kind of hinted at there are

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Speaker 3: some people that the dismemberment process is part of their fantasy.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: This is where you get into some fairly horrific psychologies

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Speaker 3: with some of these offenders. But there's just a practical

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Speaker 3: aspect to dismemberment, and that is to take a human

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Speaker 3: body and make it into smaller packages that can be

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Speaker 3: more easily secreted in various hiding locations, as well as

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Speaker 3: make them easier to transport. Where now instead of having

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Speaker 3: to carry let's say an average one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 3: to two hundred pound male body, you know, you've now

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Speaker 3: got this body that is broken down into twenty thirty

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Speaker 3: pound packages. And so it multiple trips to bring those

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Speaker 3: packages out to the carriage back in the eighteen eighties,

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Speaker 3: or you're hiding these packages and taking one or two

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Speaker 3: out at a time and really distributing the remains. So

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Speaker 3: it sounds like in this particular case, we don't know

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Speaker 3: anything about the offender, don't know anything about the victim,

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Speaker 3: but you know, the fact that they didn't find the

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Speaker 3: rest of the remains sounds like the offender really distributed

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Speaker 3: the remains, probably and fairly remote locations away from where

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Speaker 3: this torsil.

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Speaker 2: Was right now off the cuff. Is this someone who

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Speaker 2: is likely to have done this before or to have

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Speaker 2: some sort of a criminal element about them, or could

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Speaker 2: this be a first time person who just thought, oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: this is the best, most efficient way. It just seems

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Speaker 2: so gruesome for somebody who if this is an act

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Speaker 2: of passion or a robbery gone wrong or something like that.

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Speaker 3: I would even suggest that oftentimes when you have a

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Speaker 3: let's say, a serial offender, it's the earlier bodies that

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Speaker 3: may be dismembered. But then has they gained comfort in

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Speaker 3: committing these crimes and recognize the effort to dismember as

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Speaker 3: well as the cleanup process. They now realize I don't

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Speaker 3: have to dismember, and they have the confidence to maybe

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Speaker 3: transport the body whole. I don't think just looking at

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Speaker 3: the body as being dismembered is a predictor as to

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Speaker 3: whether or not this is an offender who has committed

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Speaker 3: a violent crime before this, or is going to continue

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Speaker 3: to commit a violent crime afterwards. We just don't know

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Speaker 3: enough information based on finding a dismembered torso.

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Speaker 2: I can tell you that once the coroner gets a

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Speaker 2: hold of the torso, there's no way to tell how

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Speaker 2: this person died. It hasn't been shot or stabbed or

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Speaker 2: anything that's revealed in the torso. Once the torso has

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Speaker 2: been examined, a couple of key things, but we'll get

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Speaker 2: to that in a second. The investigators arrive because the

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Speaker 2: carpenter sounds the alarm and they find some clues. So

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Speaker 2: they find bloodstained clothing accessories. And this is going to

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Speaker 2: be a new one for you, because I know it

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Speaker 2: is a new one for me. They found what appears

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Speaker 2: to be a shawl strap. Have you ever heard of that?

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Speaker 2: No shawl strap? You know what a shawl is?

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Speaker 3: Right? A shawl in my is is like a I

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Speaker 3: don't know, maybe a fancy scarf.

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Speaker 4: Is that the right way to put it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, usually thicker and bigger wool. I like a wool shawl.

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Speaker 2: So a shawl strap is a holder that you would use,

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Speaker 2: and they used it in the eighteen hundreds frequently. It's

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Speaker 2: got two straps, and I'm going to show you, just

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Speaker 2: for fun what it looks like. And it helps obviously

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Speaker 2: with carrying a shawl or a small rug or you know,

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Speaker 2: a little bit of some baggage. So this is what

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Speaker 2: it looks like. And it doesn't seem like it's important,

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Speaker 2: But when you've got a torso on a bank and

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Speaker 2: you've got a carrying device, one would think that maybe

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Speaker 2: this will play into the story a little bit.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, you know.

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Speaker 3: Basically, this shoal strap, it appears that it has a

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Speaker 3: handle in the middle with two belts at each end

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Speaker 3: of this handle. So I could see where if you

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Speaker 3: roll up a blanket or a shawl or carpeting, you

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Speaker 3: could put these belts around the rolled up item, strap

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Speaker 3: those two belts and then have a handle to readily

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Speaker 3: carry those items. And this I've never seen something like

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Speaker 3: this before, but this almost looks perfect to use to

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Speaker 3: carry this torso.

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Speaker 2: Yep, we have a smartie on our hands, I think

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Speaker 2: with this killer. Yeah, so this is bloody and the

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Speaker 2: police say, well, absolutely this is connected. What else they find?

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Speaker 2: They have this showl strap, They find some calico fabric

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Speaker 2: that they think could have been torn from a dress.

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Speaker 2: They have pieces of thick brown paper and some wrapping cord.

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Speaker 2: So police, as you and I have talked about, theorized

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Speaker 2: that these were items that were used to wrap and

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Speaker 2: carry the torso before it was tossed near the pond

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Speaker 2: or in the pond and then it washed up. Nothing else,

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Speaker 2: no other physical evidence, and that's it. One of the

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Speaker 2: things that is interesting is, you know, we talk about

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Speaker 2: profiling and we go back to Jack the Ripper all

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Speaker 2: the time, where they say, you know the way that

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Speaker 2: the bodies and Jack the Ripper were cut, it's clearly

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Speaker 2: somebody who was precise to a certain extent, and it

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Speaker 2: came from a doctor. And we know that that's sort

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Speaker 2: of been debunked, and you and I have talked about

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Speaker 2: how this is debunked. So this is a year before

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Speaker 2: Jack the Ripper, but of course this is in America.

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Speaker 2: And what the police are saying is they at first

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Speaker 2: wondered if this was a product of medical waste that

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Speaker 2: had been improperly disposed of. So if anybody's heard my

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Speaker 2: other show, and Burke and Hare was season two of

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Speaker 2: tenfold More Wicked. There were anatomy professors in the eighteen

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Speaker 2: hundreds who used bodies, sometimes of people who had been executed.

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Speaker 2: But you know, grave robbers would provide them with these cadavers,

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Speaker 2: and oftentimes the lab people would then take the bodies

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Speaker 2: once the professors were done with the bodies and you know,

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Speaker 2: dump them wherever they were supposed to put them in

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Speaker 2: a potter's grave, but they could have been dumped easily

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Speaker 2: in the pond. And so the police said they were

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Speaker 2: wondering if this was medical waste. But then they just

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Speaker 2: weren't sure because if this were medical waste. Number one,

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Speaker 2: they would have seen, in my point of view, some dissection,

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Speaker 2: because that's the point of having a body, some dissection

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Speaker 2: done on the chest, on the torso, which they hadn't.

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Speaker 2: And number two, they just said it was so crude

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Speaker 2: that it wasn't someone like an anatomy professor who would

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Speaker 2: have known what they were doing. I think this is

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Speaker 2: conjecture at this point, don't you think?

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Speaker 4: What is to a point?

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Speaker 3: You know, but part of evaluating the torso and how

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Speaker 3: it's been dismembered is also taking a look and seeing

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Speaker 3: if there's any indications that the wound margins was this

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Speaker 3: torso still filled with blood? We don't even know at

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Speaker 3: this point if this torso was something that was floating

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Speaker 3: in the water. You know, part of what I would

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Speaker 3: be looking at is, Okay, is there blood still remaining

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Speaker 3: in this torso? Is there anything within the wound margins

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Speaker 3: or within the bone itself that the pathologists could could

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Speaker 3: opine to say, yes, this appears to have been somebody

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Speaker 3: who had been alive relatively close to the time of

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Speaker 3: being dismembered, and it's going from there versus you think

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Speaker 3: about a pro section from let's say, anatomy class. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's very obvious on those that you know there's been

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Speaker 3: no blood inside these tissues for a long, long period

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Speaker 3: of time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and certainly you know we know the difference. In

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Speaker 2: season two of Tenfold, the anatomy professors knew the difference

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Speaker 2: between a body that had been freshly delivered, somebody who

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Speaker 2: had just died versus someone who had been in the

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Speaker 2: grave even two days.

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Speaker 3: That's actually a very interesting thought because sometimes I think

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Speaker 3: you've even talked about it in some of these other

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Speaker 3: cases where somebody has died and then the family has

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Speaker 3: the bos for days, if not a week or more

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Speaker 3: before the body ultimately goes to burial.

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Speaker 2: The living room aspect of it, the living room versus

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Speaker 2: the funeral parlor's part of it. Yep, you're right. So anyway,

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Speaker 2: we don't have to go down the medical Luckily, we

282
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Speaker 2: don't have to go down the medical waste road because

283
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Speaker 2: it doesn't play into it. But it's interesting the way

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Speaker 2: that they're trying to build a profile and saying an

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Speaker 2: anatomy professor would have been much better than this hack

286
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Speaker 2: job with these bowels you know, spilling out. So this

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Speaker 2: is what the investigator, the coroner says. The only thing

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Speaker 2: they can tell are three things. One is that it's

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Speaker 2: a man. Two that it's a man somewhere between twenty

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Speaker 2: five and thirty. And he has an unusual shape of

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Speaker 2: his shoulders, uniquely rounded shoulders. So is that osteoporosis? What

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Speaker 2: is that?

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Speaker 3: Without actually seeing it, it's hard to say. Maybe there's

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Speaker 3: a congenital aspect to his build. You know, that's very

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Speaker 3: exaggerated because different people, you know, I'm thinking of like

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Speaker 3: the you can have the sunken chest, you know, that's

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Speaker 3: congenital aspect. That would be a feature that stands out

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Speaker 3: that I don't know in terms of what exactly the

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Speaker 3: pathologist is looking at.

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Speaker 2: They're calling it stooping shoulders.

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Speaker 3: Well, this may be you know, like today we see

302
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Speaker 3: you know, the kids that are spending all the time

303
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Speaker 3: in front of computers, you know, or even adults. You know,

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Speaker 3: you end up getting this forward stoop as a result

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Speaker 3: of just constantly being in that position versus being more

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Speaker 3: upright doing other types of activities. So, you know, with

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Speaker 3: that type of description, I'm wondering if this is an

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Speaker 3: indicator as to maybe the type of occupation that this

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Speaker 3: the victim did and was hunched over a lot doing

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Speaker 3: that that occupation and just developed that way. But it's

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Speaker 3: hard to say. One of the things that the corner

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Speaker 3: is matchya, you've got the stooped shoulders. But he's also

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Speaker 3: saying it's a male between the ages of twenty five

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Speaker 3: to thirty, and that really seems way too narrow of

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Speaker 3: an age range yep to be able to predict that.

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Speaker 3: Just I don't see a pathologist or even a current

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Speaker 3: day anthropologist being able to define such a narrow age

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Speaker 3: window just based off the torso.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well we'll see if we're right about that. So

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Speaker 2: they say twenty five to thirty. But the stoop shoulders

321
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Speaker 2: I think is really interesting and it actually is helpful

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Speaker 2: later on. So now we have people who become suspicious.

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Speaker 2: And the main character of this story is a woman

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Speaker 2: who is spotted on a train acting very oddly. And

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Speaker 2: as word spreads about this torso that's been discovered in Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 2: the newspapers pick it up. Of course it's a really

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Speaker 2: big deal and people start coming forward with tips. So

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Speaker 2: the day before a train conductor said there was a

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Speaker 2: woman on his train who had purchased a round trip

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Speaker 2: ticket from Philadelphia to Cornwell Heights. He described her like

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Speaker 2: this tall black woman with a Southern accent. So we're

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Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania, she would have stood out. She got off

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Speaker 2: the train at Eddington and the reason that he paid

334
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:23,359
Speaker 2: attention to her was because she was acting strangely. She

335
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Speaker 2: did not want anyone near this package that she was toting,

336
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Speaker 2: and it was a package wrapped in calico. So I

337
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,399
Speaker 2: remember calico fabric was found at the scene, and she

338
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Speaker 2: was holding it with a shawl strap. It was the

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Speaker 2: dead of winter. This is February in Philadelphia. Everybody's freezing

340
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Speaker 2: on this train with all the windows closed. She sat

341
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Speaker 2: next to the window and she kept her window open

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Speaker 2: the entire time. So her name is Hannah Mary Tabs.

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Speaker 2: I'm not an investigator, but even I can say this

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Speaker 2: sounds very suspicious. But it's more complicated than that.

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Speaker 3: What do you think, Well, you know, I think first

346
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,119
Speaker 3: is you know what information about what was found with

347
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Speaker 3: the torso was put out into the public domain. You know,

348
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Speaker 3: most certainly if that information had never been released to

349
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Speaker 3: the public. And now you have this train conductor coming

350
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Speaker 3: up with this type of specific information that is so

351
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Speaker 3: unusual that yes, this now you know, the bells are

352
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,040
Speaker 3: going off. As an investigator, going I need to figure

353
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Speaker 3: out who this woman is.

354
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Speaker 2: So Hannah and Mary Tabs is a very complicated person.

355
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Speaker 2: And the reason she's complicated is where she comes from

356
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Speaker 2: and her behavior, not just the day that the train

357
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Speaker 2: conductor saw her, but just her behavior in life and

358
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Speaker 2: her background. This is not as simple as she's carrying

359
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,679
Speaker 2: a torso and she did it. There's a lot more

360
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:57,040
Speaker 2: to it. She was born in Maryland. Maryland was a

361
00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,400
Speaker 2: slave state when she was born, but when she was younger,

362
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 2: the Civil War broke out, and it's really just hard

363
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,960
Speaker 2: for us to find any information because she was a

364
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,639
Speaker 2: black woman and she was born in this time period,

365
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:13,720
Speaker 2: so we don't know a lot about her early life,

366
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,560
Speaker 2: like her parents, how she grew up. But we can

367
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,919
Speaker 2: assume because of the time period. I certainly can assume

368
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:21,959
Speaker 2: that she was exposed to a lot of racism and

369
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,800
Speaker 2: discrimination and very likely physical or sexual violence. And that

370
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,679
Speaker 2: is not, of course, to absolve anything going forward that

371
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,959
Speaker 2: we find out, but it is to say that, you know,

372
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,119
Speaker 2: it's important to know when we are in a time

373
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Speaker 2: period where all of this is just sort of baked

374
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Speaker 2: in because of what time we're in in the eighteen

375
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,400
Speaker 2: hundreds and how people of color were treated and where

376
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,399
Speaker 2: they came from. This is just a little bit of

377
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,040
Speaker 2: a background, and I know that you know that that's important.

378
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:51,680
Speaker 2: It's not the end all, be all, but we want

379
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,600
Speaker 2: to know when we have a suspect where they came

380
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 2: from and what happens. It's not as easy to just

381
00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:58,320
Speaker 2: dismiss them as a monster.

382
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Speaker 3: Well, this is where in in terms of when we

383
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 3: start taking a look at the individuals that are involved

384
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,480
Speaker 3: in the crime. We have the victim and that, like

385
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 3: I say, victimology is huge, but then as suspects are developed,

386
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 3: you know, an evaluation of those suspects, their background, their personalities,

387
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,480
Speaker 3: their psychology is part of what an investigator does in

388
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:26,640
Speaker 3: addition to trying to gather the facts about location and

389
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 3: you know the means, mode of opportunity. You know that

390
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,639
Speaker 3: this suspect may have had in relation to the crime.

391
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 3: So it is very important to understand the suspects background.

392
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 3: It's really on the courts, you know, in terms of

393
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:45,880
Speaker 3: evaluating the suspects background are now the defendant's background and

394
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:50,480
Speaker 3: how that may play into sentencing as an example, is

395
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 3: there some mitigating factor that the jury or the court

396
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 3: may decide we're not going to punish this person to

397
00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,880
Speaker 3: the fullest extent of what we are permitted too from

398
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,200
Speaker 3: a sentencing standpoint.

399
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:04,920
Speaker 2: Well, we'll see if that comes into play with this story.

400
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 2: You know, we like to give credit for people who

401
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,119
Speaker 2: do incredible amounts of research. Of course, I always say

402
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 2: hi to Maren, who is an amazing researcher. But there

403
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 2: was a woman named Callie Nicole Gross, and she wrote

404
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 2: a book called Hannah and Mary Tabs and the Disembodied

405
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,919
Speaker 2: Torso a tale of race, sex and violence. It's a

406
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,400
Speaker 2: great book, and Maren used it to get a lot

407
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 2: of information. So we want to give her a lot

408
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 2: of credit because Gross really did an incredible amount of research.

409
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 2: Here's what she knows for sure about Hannah Mary, which

410
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 2: is important, is that she was the guardian of a

411
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 2: little girl named Annie. I don't know the age, but

412
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 2: it just set a girl, so I'm going to assume,

413
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 2: you know, under fifteen or sixteen, could be eighteen, who knows.

414
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,679
Speaker 2: She was described as having very light skin, so we

415
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 2: are not sure if this is her biological daughter or

416
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 2: if it's you know, a niece, or if she will

417
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 2: the product of a consensual relationship or a sexual assault.

418
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 2: We just don't We don't know. But at some point

419
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 2: Annie is with Hanna and Mary in Hannah Mary's life,

420
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 2: and then Annie vanishes and we don't know why. And

421
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 2: that comes a little bit into play later on. So

422
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 2: there is a girl who is in this woman's life

423
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 2: who has now gone, And now people are saying that

424
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 2: Hanna and Mary Tabs has a torso that she's been

425
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 2: toting around with this shawl strap, and we're going to

426
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 2: start having to get some information from her. So let

427
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 2: me tell you a little tiny bit more about her

428
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 2: before we talk about, you know, what might have happened

429
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 2: to Annie, which happens a little bit later. Hannah Mary

430
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 2: is twenty one in eighteen seventy three when she marries

431
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 2: a thirty seven year old man named John H. Tabs

432
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 2: in Baltimore and they and Annie. Annie is still in

433
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 2: the picture. They eventually moved to Philadelphia, and here's where

434
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 2: things start looking not so great with Hannah. She has

435
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 2: a really bad reputation for cruelty, for violence, for having

436
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 2: outbursts that are specifically aimed at her husband and at Annie,

437
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 2: which is the niece of the daughter. We're not sure.

438
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 2: And in eighteen eighty six, which is a year before

439
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 2: this mysterious torso is discovered, that's when Annie vanishes. So

440
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 2: when this media comes out and it sounds like this

441
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 2: train conductor is fingering Hannah and Mary, people start realizing

442
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:35,959
Speaker 2: that there's a girl in this woman's life who has

443
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: gone missing the year before. So of course they're saying, well,

444
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 2: I mean, she's responsible for this torso. Even though there's

445
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 2: little evidence except what I've explained so far, and now

446
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 2: this girl has gone missing, Hannah is painted really as

447
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 2: a monster from the very beginning, before they have enough evidence,

448
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 2: you know, to release to the media to convince people otherwise.

449
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if you can talk, just for a moment

450
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 2: about the power of the media. We've talked about this

451
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 2: a lot. When information gets out, when there's information from

452
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 2: a person's past, someone who hasn't been on trial or

453
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 2: convicted yet, how can that really influence the public And

454
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 2: does that then influence investigators or das and make them

455
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 2: feel pressure to really move forward with a case. When

456
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 2: you find out your main suspect has had a sexual

457
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 2: assault in his past or has killed someone else in

458
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: his past.

459
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:32,360
Speaker 3: Well, the media has tremendous influence on public perception when

460
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 3: it comes to the circumstances of the crime as well

461
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 3: as who the public thinks committed the crime. And this

462
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 3: especially when we start talking about back in this time

463
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 3: frame eighteen eighty seven. You know, the only way the

464
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 3: public is really learning about anything related to this crime, I imagine,

465
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 3: is through the newspapers, the written word.

466
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: In word of mouth, and rumors in town hall. Yep.

467
00:25:58,880 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

468
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 3: So now the public generally doesn't have the capacity from

469
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 3: having access to all the details in order to form

470
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 3: independent opinions, right, and so they're going to rely upon

471
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 3: the journalist that's writing the article, and that journalist, depending

472
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 3: on how that article is written, can truly sway public opinion.

473
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 3: And so now you know, there may be somebody who's arrested,

474
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 3: and that person's name gets out there, and then that

475
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 3: arrestee is released lack of information, Well, the public now

476
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 3: truly believes that that arrested person is the killer. Whereas

477
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 3: there may have been sufficient probable cause to affect an arrest,

478
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 3: but under further investigation, there wasn't sufficient evidence. In fact,

479
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 3: there may have been even exculpatory information where you go,

480
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 3: this person is not responsible. Yet now the media is

481
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 3: already run with that name associated with that crime, and

482
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 3: so the public thinks that that is the person, and

483
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 3: why did law enforcement release them? Why did the DA

484
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 3: not file charges? So it can be very negative in

485
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 3: terms of the truth of what's going on in the investigation.

486
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 3: And then now if you get the public outcry, then

487
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 3: there's the pressure on law enforcement. We got to solve

488
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 3: this case. You release this person, and I imagine if

489
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 3: you have an unscrupulous investigator or agency or DA, they're

490
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 3: going to go, well, you know what, we're going to

491
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 3: go after this guy, even though we know we likely

492
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 3: didn't do it. We're going to go after him, just

493
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 3: so we get this pressure off of our back.

494
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 2: And then they can't get a fair trial if they

495
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 2: do go to trial, you know. And then there's the

496
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 2: defense attorney demanding a change of venue because everybody knows

497
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 2: about this case and they're protesters, and you know, I'm

498
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 2: a member of the media. I get it. But the

499
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 2: media in the eighteen hundreds was, particularly with a black woman,

500
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 2: just vengeful. It's pretty amazing what happens in this case.

501
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 2: So let's get back into it. You know I mentioned

502
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 2: what we know about him Mary. She was married to

503
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 2: a thirty seven year old man. She had a niece

504
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 2: or a daughter who disappeared the year before the torso

505
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 2: was discovered. A torso that was on the bank of

506
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 2: this haund in Pennsylvania is wrapped in a piece of

507
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 2: calico fabric that seems to match what people are saying

508
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: Hannah Mary had, and now she is being hauled into

509
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 2: a police investigation into who this person is, who is

510
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: this torso that was washed up. We also know that

511
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 2: Hannah Mary just anecdonally sounds like a really terrible person.

512
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 2: She is abusive to everybody, verbally, physically, very violent, even

513
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: though of course she says I'm not and she reportedly

514
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,959
Speaker 2: even harasses and assaults her neighbor. So Calie Nicole Gross,

515
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 2: the woman who wrote the book, points out that Hannah's

516
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 2: violence has always been aimed at other black people, and

517
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 2: it's an important point because Gross says, that's why there's

518
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 2: no arrest record, because you could say about her as

519
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: a suspect, Well, I mean, look at a record, or

520
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 2: record's clean, but you have people who are not going

521
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: to report it and police who could care less. So

522
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 2: now you've got somebody on the street, Hannah, who sounds

523
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: like has a terrible reputation, has been probably broken the

524
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: law many times, but has no arrest record simply because

525
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: of the time period she's living in the color of

526
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 2: her skin.

527
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 3: Okay, So kind of getting back to the train with

528
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 3: Hannah on the train, the route that this train took

529
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 3: is Eddington.

530
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 4: Along that route, she.

531
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 2: Got off on that stop Eddington, so she's in the town.

532
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 3: Yep, we have the location and the size of the package.

533
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 3: Obviously the shoal strap, the calico fabric, but the size

534
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 3: of the package. Is that consistent with the size of

535
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 3: a adult male torso or is this possibly? What I'm

536
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,959
Speaker 3: thinking about is you know, first, it's just almost ludicrous

537
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 3: from a standpoint of thinking, I've got a dismembered body part,

538
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 3: I'm going to take public transportation right to get rid

539
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 3: of it. This is not well thought out from my perspective.

540
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 3: But at the same time, is is that when we

541
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 3: have other body parts?

542
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 2: Yeah?

543
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 3: Was this a method that Hannah was using to dispose

544
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 3: of other body parts? And could there be a clue

545
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 3: as to where some of these other remains are based

546
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 3: on where she was getting off the train.

547
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: She got on the train in Philadelphia. She was supposed

548
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 2: to go to Cornwall Heights, but she got off the

549
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: train at Eddington and that's where the torso was found.

550
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 2: Let's talk about who the victim is. So they have

551
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: Hannah Mary and she is being questioned. The newspapers are

552
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 2: talking about it. It's going all over Pennsylvania, and pretty

553
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: soon a woman comes forward to Philadelphia police. Her name

554
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 2: is Jane Cannon, and Jane says that her twenty two

555
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 2: year old brother has been missing since the day that

556
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 2: the torso was found. And his name is Wakefield Gaines.

557
00:30:55,560 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 2: Wakefield Gains' sister says that he has particular rounded or

558
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 2: stooping shoulders, which I know does not mean much, but

559
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: that is the one thing they really could tell other

560
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: than the twenty two. And they said twenty five to thirty.

561
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 2: He's twenty two, so you're right, not completely accurate for sure.

562
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 2: So Wakefield is the victim, and we start getting some

563
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 2: background on Wakefield. Jane says, Wakefield has been missing. I

564
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: don't know what's happening. I do know that he's been

565
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: romantically involved with this crazed woman named Hannah Mary Tabs.

566
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: And so now the police are putting this all together,

567
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 2: and now we learn about their relationship. They had been

568
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 2: romantically involved and it had always been a nightmare of

569
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 2: a relationship. She's married, first of all, to John. So

570
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 2: let's keep John in mind, because now you have a

571
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 2: husband who may or may not know that his wife

572
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: is having an affair with a twenty two year old

573
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 2: and he's thirty seven. You've got Hannah Mary who's romantically

574
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: involved with this guy, and they had just broken up

575
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 2: after a particularly volatile episode, and two weeks earlier. Part

576
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 2: of this breakup came because Hannah had slashed him with

577
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 2: a knife and he had said, listen, I'm dating another woman,

578
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 2: you're married. I don't want this anymore, and so she

579
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 2: took out a knife and slashed him and reportedly screamed

580
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: that she would kill him or she would get even

581
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 2: with him, and then she stalked him for several days.

582
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: Just before he vanished, Wakefield had accused Hannah of trying

583
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 2: to poison him. So all of this seems on point

584
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: for Hannah. She is very volatile. It doesn't mean she's guilty,

585
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 2: but we're adding more information. She knows the victim, all

586
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: of that.

587
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, this is where what I call churn.

588
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 3: I dig into a case. You know, there's many potential

589
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 3: suspects that I would run across, and I start looking

590
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 3: at these suspects, and it's a lot of times there

591
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 3: just doesn't seem to be any overlap with that individual

592
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 3: and the crime itself. But then if you run across

593
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 3: somebody and then you start getting these types of details,

594
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 3: These details themselves, they don't really stand alone, but as

595
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 3: you start stacking those details, this is that churn. Okay,

596
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 3: there's something here. I need to keep going down this

597
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 3: particular lead. It may peter out, you know, but there's

598
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 3: something there I'm grasping upon that is pulling me deeper

599
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 3: into that person to see were they the ones responsible

600
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 3: for the crime? Were they the ones responsible for the homicide?

601
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 3: And right now, as these investigators are digging into this relationship,

602
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 3: there's churn there.

603
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 4: So they're going to keep going.

604
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:50,719
Speaker 2: And this is where things get confusing with stories. So

605
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 2: just bear with me and we'll kind of go back

606
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 2: and forth on this because there are some confusing stories here,

607
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: and now our job is to untangle what the likelihood

608
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 2: is of what everybody's story is working out and trying

609
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 2: to find the truth. So Jane says, my brother was

610
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 2: dating this woman. She just snapped on him, and I

611
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 2: think she's the one who killed him. And they say, well,

612
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 2: why are you suspicious besides the fact that Hannah is

613
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 2: very violent, She says, well, something weird happened. The morning

614
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 2: that Wakefield disappeared. Hannah came over to Jane's house, his

615
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 2: sister's house, which she said was very strange because she

616
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 2: and Hannah were not friends. Jane did not approve of

617
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: her relationship with Wakefield, you know, that was their only

618
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 2: connection was this man. So Jane told the police that

619
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 2: Hannah had been crying and she said that she thought

620
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 2: that the torso found in Eddington belonged to her brother,

621
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 2: and Jane was very, very suspicious. So this is the

622
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 2: time period between when the torso had been discovered not identified,

623
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 2: and the train conductor had not come forward yet, so

624
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 2: it's sort of right in the middle. I am so

625
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 2: confused about why Hannah would do that. Is she trying

626
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 2: to sabotage herself?

627
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, this sounds more like she's

628
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 3: trying to play Jane. She's she's showing up in this

629
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 3: emotional state, so she's crying She's trying to show concern

630
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 3: for Wakefield. To me, it sounds like this is more

631
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 3: manipulation of Jane. She knows that Jane is aware of

632
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 3: her and Wakefield's relationship, the acrimonious aspect of the relationship,

633
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 3: and is trying to get out in front behaviorally with Jane.

634
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,399
Speaker 3: So when Jane does find out Wakefield is missing or

635
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 3: they identify these remains as Wakefields, She's going to not

636
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 3: suspect Hannah because Hannah just was so devastated by the

637
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 3: thought that Wakefield could be, you know, dead, and these

638
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 3: remains are his. So this real to me, sounds like

639
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 3: Hannah is premeditating how she's going to manipulate Jane to

640
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 3: where the investigators land on Jane and talk to Jane.

641
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 3: Jane's not going to be fingering Hannah as being, oh,

642
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 3: you need to look at her.

643
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 2: And I guess I was thinking that there are so

644
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 2: many people who I often report on victims who nobody

645
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 2: cares about, no one gives a shit about. Some of

646
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 2: these people, you know, they don't have family members who

647
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 2: are going to police. Hannah must have assumed that Jane

648
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 2: was going to go to the police at some point,

649
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 2: which she did Ultimately, the police find Hannah in Philadelphia

650
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 2: where she lives, and they kind of do a cursory

651
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 2: observation and she has a black eye. She says it

652
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 2: was the result of an accidental slip and fall, but

653
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 2: you know, it looks like something happened to her. Now,

654
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 2: it could have been domestic violence because she's married and

655
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 2: somebody found out something. It could have been the result

656
00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 2: of Wakefield fighting back while he's being killed. Both to

657
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: be on the table for me.

658
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 3: Black eye, well, for sure, the falling and receiving of

659
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 3: a black eye, I mean it can happen, but most

660
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 3: certainly the eyes, the face, the head. When somebody falls,

661
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,320
Speaker 3: they really try to protect that part of their body

662
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 3: during the fall. Unless they're just so inebriated. You have

663
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 3: this what we call the fall down drunks, where they

664
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 3: look like they've been beat up. But the reason why

665
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 3: they have all these the bruises and lacerations to their

666
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 3: face and the head is that they're not so cognizant

667
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 3: because they're so under the influence of alcohol or drugs

668
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 3: that they don't protect those parts of the body. But

669
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 3: for most people you know, who are not under the influence,

670
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 3: when they do fall, you don't see as much of

671
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 3: these these injuries to the head unless it's like during

672
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 3: a very you know, that sudden athletic movement or something

673
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 3: that it was so unexpected that you don't have time

674
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 3: in order to brace the fall.

675
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 2: Hannah, Mary has a hard time a lot of things,

676
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 2: most certainly her timeline. So first let's talk about John. Police.

677
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: Of course, go to her husband and say did you

678
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,240
Speaker 2: know about this affair? And he said yes, and yes,

679
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 2: this is Wakefield and my wife is very violent, and

680
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 2: he said things with her have been even weirder than normal.

681
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 2: He was leaving for work Wednesday night and then came

682
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 2: home about eight o'clock that night. Hannah was not at home.

683
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,479
Speaker 2: She didn't come home until three hours later. So he says,

684
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 2: I have no idea where she was. And at first,

685
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 2: when I was thinking about this, I thought, well, why

686
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 2: aren't they homed in on him? But he's at work.

687
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 2: He probably has a really good alibi, and they are

688
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 2: really focused on Hannah. There's three hours that don't seem

689
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 2: like can be accounted for in her timeline.

690
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 4: That dawns on me. You know, John is aware of

691
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 4: the affair, of course, you.

692
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 3: Know, this is one of the prime motives that people

693
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 3: end up committing violence is when there is this lover's triangle,

694
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 3: this jealous see aspect. You know, I kind of wonder,

695
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,879
Speaker 3: based on John's demeanor and talking about, yeah, she's having

696
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 3: this affair, maybe in some ways he was like, oh good.

697
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 3: You know, now her attention and her wrath is being

698
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 3: focused on Wakefield.

699
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 4: And not on him.

700
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 2: Yep.

701
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 3: But as time goes on, I think John potentially is

702
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,839
Speaker 3: in danger of becoming a victim. The way that I'm

703
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 3: reading Hannah at this point.

704
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 2: Here's where we switch a lot of things around. I'm

705
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: not going to try to convince you that Hannah was

706
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 2: a good person, because it sounds like she really was

707
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: a hell raiser in the worst sense of the phrase.

708
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 2: But I don't know yet if she's a killer. And

709
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 2: here's why Hannah confesses. She says to police, you're right

710
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 2: that Torso belongs to Wakefield Gains. I never hurt him,

711
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 2: but I did help the person who killed him. So

712
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 2: I did transport body part, but I was not the

713
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 2: one who killed him. I was an accessory. And then

714
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 2: she has information about the person who actually killed him,

715
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 2: and now we have to figure out if we believe

716
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 2: her or the other suspect we're about to meet, Well,

717
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 2: we keep going younger here. So we've got Hannah who

718
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 2: has now met an eighteen year old named George Wilson

719
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 2: straight away. No research says that they were lovers, that

720
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 2: they were even close friends. This is an acquaintance. So

721
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 2: this is what makes the whole story really weird, because

722
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 2: this is something that might not have been premeditated because

723
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 2: we don't know the circumstances yet, but it was certainly

724
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: covered up. And because of how ambiguous this case becomes,

725
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 2: it's very difficult for law enforcement to untangle all of this.

726
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: So this is what happens. Hannah says that there's this

727
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 2: guy named George Wilson. George came to her and they

728
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: just had sort of known each other from around Philadelphia

729
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 2: in the black community. George came to her one day

730
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: and said, I know what happened to Annie. And remember

731
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 2: Annie is the young girl who was in her care

732
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 2: who had disappeared. Hannah had said, I never had anything

733
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 2: to do with her disappearance, and so when George came

734
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: to her and said I know what happened, she is

735
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 2: confused and interested and also very wary of him as

736
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 2: our police, because he confirms I did go to her

737
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 2: and say, you know, I know what happened to Annie.

738
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 2: What the police believe is that he approached Hannah at

739
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: the beginning to scam her. Give me some money, I'll

740
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 2: tell you what happened to your daughter, slash niece. And

741
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 2: I know that that's confusing, but I have to explain

742
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 2: how these two became in each other's orbit to begin with.

743
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 2: So we have somebody who's a potential con artist who

744
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 2: she's now gotten involved with for some reason.

745
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this con artist, you know, this is where

746
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 3: with Annie. You know, we know Hannah had access to Annie.

747
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 3: When Annie goes missing, it doesn't sound like Hannah reports

748
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 3: or missing, does she do? So it's almost like this

749
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 3: this mother is just like, oh, well, my daughter's gone.

750
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 4: Which is suspicious. You know.

751
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 3: My first instinct is is Hannah had something to do

752
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,280
Speaker 3: with Annie's disappearance, whether that's you know, Annie was killed

753
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 3: and disposed of or was given away, you know, who knows.

754
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 3: So for a con artist to come forward and in

755
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 3: Essen say I know what happened to Annie, he's he's

756
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,800
Speaker 3: making a play as to he's got to have confidence

757
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 3: that Hannah didn't have anything to do with with Annie's disappearance.

758
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 3: That's where I'm confused about the stance he's taken relative

759
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 3: to what I think maybe is just an assumption on

760
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,839
Speaker 3: my part that Hannah was involved in Annie's disappearance.

761
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 2: Here's one of the problems that we face that you

762
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: and I have talked about a lot, and I mentioned

763
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 2: at the top of this episode, is we don't even

764
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 2: know how old Annie was. So Annie could have been

765
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 2: fifteen or sixteen, which in this time period meant she

766
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 2: could have just said fu to Hannah and left, because

767
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 2: Hannah sounds like a nightmare to live with, So it

768
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 2: could have been I don't know if this is a

769
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: nine year old girl. This could have been a sixteen,

770
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 2: seventeen year old person. We don't know. And that's not

771
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,280
Speaker 2: to say that this is someone who should have been forgotten,

772
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 2: but it could have been someone who walked away. What

773
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 2: I thought was interesting is that George owned up to

774
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: trying to it. Sounds like scam Hannah, I'm assuming out

775
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 2: of money, so she is with Wakefield when this happens.

776
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 2: George says, hey, let me talk to you, and he

777
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 2: gives her this information. Hannah does not seem to take it.

778
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 2: Very well, And there's an argument. Everybody's vague about this

779
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 2: argument between George the eighteen year old and Wakefield the

780
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 2: twenty two year old. Hannah says, I'm going to tell

781
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 2: you what happened. She said, there's a fight and George

782
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 2: picks up a chair and hits Wakefield and it kills him,

783
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 2: and you know, Hannah just stands there. She never gives

784
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 2: a really good excuse for why she didn't stop any

785
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 2: of this, except that there's two grown men who are

786
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 2: fighting in front of her and she probably doesn't want

787
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 2: to get involved. She says, it killed him. I did

788
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: not do the dismemberment, but I did take his torso

789
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 2: and put it in that shawl strap and carry it

790
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 2: like a package onto the train, got out at Eddington

791
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 2: and dumped it by the pond. So she is coping

792
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 2: to an accessory. She is not coping to murder. And

793
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 2: the reason this is important is because she is now

794
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:55,280
Speaker 2: dragging George Wilson, rightfully or not rightfully so into this case.

795
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 2: And that's why it becomes so convoluted. Who killed us?

796
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,399
Speaker 2: This man is dead? Somebody he did it, but which

797
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 2: one of them did it?

798
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 4: Yeah? See, I'm I'm calling bullshit.

799
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:06,839
Speaker 2: Oh wait, on which part I said a lot there?

800
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 3: Know that Hannah is saying George is the one that

801
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 3: killed Wakefield. Think about this. George is just now confronting Hannah,

802
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 3: trying to conner, probably for money, about Annie. And then

803
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 3: she's saying he kills Wakefield. And now she's an accessory

804
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 3: to try to protect this man who is just trying

805
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 3: to con her. That does not pass the sniff test

806
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 3: in my opinion.

807
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 2: Well, I wonder if this was a conversation that Wakefield

808
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 2: was there for. I'm not sure why Hannah would cover

809
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 2: up on George's behalf this murder of somebody she supposedly loved.

810
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 2: George does admit to some things. This is where it

811
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,399
Speaker 2: gets really interesting. The police, who were assuming we're all men,

812
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 2: I'm sure at this point in Philadelphia, say, you know what,

813
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 2: that makes sense because they do not believe this is

814
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 2: so classic eighteen hundreds. They don't think a woman could

815
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 2: carry out such a heinous murder. They believe women can kill.

816
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: I don't think they believe that a woman on her

817
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 2: own could kill a grown man, dismember him, and then

818
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 2: scatter his parts everywhere.

819
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 3: Now, taking a look at Hannah, you described her as

820
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 3: this very tall yep. I am envisioning her being so aggressive,

821
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 3: especially in her relationships with Wakefield. I don't know about

822
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 3: what was going on between her and John, her husband,

823
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 3: but you know, I'm imagining a woman that's fairly robust,

824
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 3: you know, so she's probably physically stronger than the average

825
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,959
Speaker 3: woman of that timeframe. I can think a recent case.

826
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 3: In fact, it was a case that we profiled when

827
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 3: I was part of the America the reboot of America's

828
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 3: Most Wanted with Elizabeth Argas, and we had a case

829
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 3: where a woman killed her boyfriend, shot him, and dismembered him,

830
00:46:54,920 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 3: and then scattered his remains in plastic bags along a freeway.

831
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 3: Women commit these types of crimes today, so they could

832
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 3: have committed these types of crimes back in the eighteen eighties,

833
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 3: for sure.

834
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,240
Speaker 2: They are actually more likely in the eighteen eighties, between

835
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 2: domestic violence, poison, and women probably being pretty physically fit.

836
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 2: I mean, a woman in her position probably worked at

837
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 2: a lot of physical labor. So the police say, oh,

838
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 2: this woman could have never done it. They start looking

839
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 2: at George. Now here's some interesting little factoids about George.

840
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 2: He used to work in a slaughterhouse, so this guy

841
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 2: knows how to cut meat, and he is now very

842
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 2: interesting as a suspect. He's arrested because of what Hannah says,

843
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 2: and it makes sense to them, and of course he

844
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 2: works at a slaughterhouse, has worked at a slaughterhouse. He's arrested.

845
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,760
Speaker 2: He says, I have nothing to do with Wakefield Gains's

846
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 2: disappearance or his murder, but he thinks that she escapedgoating

847
00:47:54,960 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 2: him because he has refused to give her information about

848
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 2: the niece. Now he's not saying I have real information

849
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 2: about Annie and her disappearance. He's just saying she's pissed

850
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 2: and she killed her boyfriend and now she's taking it

851
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 2: out on me, and I'm a good scapegoat here Again,

852
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 2: it comes back to boy, this doesn't sound like she

853
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 2: did anything to Annie, because you know, he's admitting that

854
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 2: he teased her with information. She is saying, I can't

855
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 2: believe this guy approached me with this information. It just

856
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 2: doesn't to me seem like she actually did anything. But

857
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 2: she's also a terrible person, so it wouldn't surprise me

858
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 2: if she did.

859
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 4: Well.

860
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 3: Annie is a mystery, big one, but fundamentally, in the

861
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 3: homicide of Wakefield, it is now evaluating the veracity of

862
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 3: George versus Hannah. And it's not just their statements. It's

863
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 3: also Okay, we have a crime scene somewhere. Where was

864
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,479
Speaker 3: Wakefield killed, Where was his body dismembered? Where were these

865
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 3: two individuals during the time that this is occurring, you know.

866
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of footwork that needs to be

867
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 3: done by the investigators to tease out, well, who's telling

868
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:05,919
Speaker 3: the truth here?

869
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 2: Yep? So let's talk about that footwork. They have Georgian custody,

870
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 2: they have Hannah and custody. They go to his house

871
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 2: and they find some suspicious items that would have cleared

872
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 2: this up right away if this happened in twenty twenty three,

873
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,399
Speaker 2: but it didn't happened in eighteen eighty seven, sorry, Paul,

874
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 2: And now we are a little stymied. He had bloody

875
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 2: clothing that was his clothing with blood all over it.

876
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,280
Speaker 2: He had wrapping cord that matched the kind of cord

877
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 2: that was found near the torso that probably everybody and

878
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 2: their mother had. And he had a bloody meat saw.

879
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 2: This guy worked once in a meat processing plant. He

880
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 2: was in a slaughterhouse, so he had a meat saw.

881
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 2: None of this could be connected definitively to Wakefield, but

882
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 2: it is all weird. It's circumstantial, right, We don't know

883
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 2: if this is even human blood.

884
00:49:57,840 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

885
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 3: Part of the issue at you're of course, is this

886
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 3: occupation in the slaughterhouse, and you know individuals like that,

887
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 3: of course, are you know, they're more likely to have

888
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 3: the bloody clothing and the bloody knife inside their residence.

889
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 3: You know, this is where even though they don't have

890
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 3: modern DNA testing or even modern zorology to do human

891
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 3: versus non human type of evaluations, there may be clues

892
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 3: as to well, I mean, does this knife or his

893
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 3: clothing is does it have animal hair on it versus

894
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 3: human hair? You know, what kind of patterns are we seeing?

895
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 3: You know, you go and talk to the people who

896
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 3: are also working in the slaughterhouse, Hey, what what does

897
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 3: George do here? And evaluate how would he get the

898
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 3: blood on his clothing within that environment and start determining

899
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 3: certain things. What they're seeing off of the clothing, what

900
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 3: they're seeing off of this this meat knife. Is that

901
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,919
Speaker 3: some thing that is consistent with his activities, his known

902
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 3: activities at the slaughterhouse or is it more consistent with

903
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 3: the homicide? And then the subsequent dismemberment of Wakefield. So

904
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,280
Speaker 3: there's probably things they could have done if they knew

905
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 3: what they were looking at.

906
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard. A lot of people would have had

907
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 2: a meat saw in the late eighteen hundreds. It's funny.

908
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 2: I've written about a couple of different AX murder cases,

909
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:26,879
Speaker 2: and you would think, now, if you have an AX

910
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 2: murderer in Austin, and then one in Bastrop nearby, and

911
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,839
Speaker 2: then one in San Marcus, and then you know one

912
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,720
Speaker 2: in Lockhart, and these are all towns that are twenty

913
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 2: thirty miles away, you would think, oh my gosh, there's

914
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 2: a consistency there, because we don't see a ton of

915
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 2: AX murders now. But that's in the eighteen hundreds and

916
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 2: everybody had an AX and it was right there. I mean,

917
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 2: we've had a couple of AX murders on this show.

918
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 2: So cultural context is really important. But let me just

919
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 2: kind of smooth things out for George a little bit.

920
00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 2: If you believe this.

921
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 3: Well before you do that, though, you know, we have

922
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 3: you know, clothing and a knife that appears to have

923
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 3: blood on it, but you also have an adult male

924
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:10,760
Speaker 3: that has been dismembered, and this is a bloody process.

925
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,359
Speaker 3: So now what else is going on inside George's house?

926
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 3: Is there evidence of large blood pools or some cast

927
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:22,720
Speaker 3: off spatter, some dripped stains, et cetera within his house,

928
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 3: which obviously he's not bringing animals home and slaughtering him,

929
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 3: you know, So now is there something more to go

930
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 3: on that? Oh, there is a body that's being dismembered

931
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,280
Speaker 3: inside George's residence.

932
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 2: They do not report any of that. No large pools

933
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 2: of blood. This is not a crime scene. This is

934
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 2: a guy who probably got a partial animal, brought him

935
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 2: home and cut him up, you know, just for pieces

936
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 2: for a stew or something. That's just conjecture on my part,

937
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:52,760
Speaker 2: because I still don't know how I feel about George,

938
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 2: and I know this whole story.

939
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,240
Speaker 3: The obvious question to Hannah as part of her fingering

940
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 3: George's is okay, so where was Wakefield cut up at?

941
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 2: Right?

942
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 3: And evaluating that location to corroborate or refute her statement?

943
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 2: Right, So it sounds like this is supposed to have

944
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 2: happened at Wakefield's house, But they're examining the scene and

945
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:16,799
Speaker 2: they have not found anything that this is definitively the

946
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 2: crime scene. So I don't know if it was a

947
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 2: good cleanup. Of course, there's no a luminol or anything

948
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 2: happening back then. Also, I go back to the stories

949
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 2: that I have reported on where I picture in my

950
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 2: head this beautiful, pristine crime scene where there's blood pooled

951
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 2: exactly in the right place, and boy, this house could

952
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 2: have been trashed. We don't know the condition of it,

953
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 2: so I don't think they have a clear idea of

954
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 2: where this happened. They're assuming that this happened at Wakefield's

955
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 2: house because both of them are saying George and Hannah

956
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 2: are saying there was a big fight between these two guys.

957
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 2: But let me go through this. George's friends and his acquaintances,

958
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 2: everybody's coming to this guy's defense. His co workers say

959
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 2: that he was there the night that the murder supposedly happened,

960
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 2: and he was on shift that night. You know. Callie

961
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 2: Nicole Gross, who wrote this book, said it felt like

962
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 2: the whole black community was behind George. Nobody wanted to

963
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 2: think that George would have done this, but that the

964
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 2: community was also against Hannah. Sounds like because Hannah was

965
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 2: not a great person doesn't mean she was guilty though.

966
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:22,319
Speaker 2: It just means she was not a great person, but

967
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 2: he's been alibied. How much do we trust alibis? I mean,

968
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 2: this seems like a plus for George when you have

969
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 2: all of these people coming to his defense.

970
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 3: There's substance to the alibi. However, like you brought up before,

971
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 3: it's also that cultural context, right there's a segment of

972
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 3: the community that is rallying behind George. I would imagine

973
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 3: if you have you know, coworkers saying he was on shift.

974
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 3: You know, is there any documentation that is available, did

975
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 3: he have a time card that was being filled out?

976
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 3: Is there an independent person a manager as an example,

977
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 3: or somebody who has some jeopardy that if they were

978
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 3: to lie to law enforcement that they could lose their

979
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:06,840
Speaker 3: job and possibly be charged with a crime.

980
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 4: I would want to dig into.

981
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 3: Okay, I may have a coworker whose friends with George

982
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 3: saying that he was on shift during the timeframe that

983
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,760
Speaker 3: Wakefield was likely killed. But is there somebody more independent

984
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 3: that I can rely upon to establish that alibi? And

985
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 3: that's right now?

986
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 4: We don't know that.

987
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 3: Right now, it's just people that seem to be in

988
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 3: George's corner, which kind of weakens the alibi a little bit.

989
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have anybody solid and no CCTV of course,

990
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,720
Speaker 2: so there is no one solid who can vouch for George.

991
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 2: And now George changes his story, so the criminal trial

992
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 2: against both of them is looming, and his story shifts.

993
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 2: He tells investigators, I'm going to cop to something. I

994
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:54,439
Speaker 2: did hit Wakefield with a chair, just like Hannah said,

995
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 2: but it was only in self defense because Wakefield attacked

996
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 2: me first. He says, I don't know if I killed

997
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 2: the guy, but I left as soon as I hit

998
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:06,320
Speaker 2: him with the chair, and by the time I got back.

999
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 2: It sounds like he was saying that Hannah had already

1000
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 2: dismembered Wakefield's body and had divvied up the corpse and

1001
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 2: then instructed George to dispose of several body parts. So

1002
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 2: he took Wakefield's head and his limbs and put him

1003
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 2: in a nearby river in Philadelphia. So he's confessing to this. Now,

1004
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 2: he's saying this is what happened, and sort of corroborating

1005
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 2: her story. She said it was an argument. He says

1006
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 2: it was self defense. Both say it was with a chair.

1007
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 2: What do you think about that?

1008
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:39,760
Speaker 3: You know, part of in assessing the type of injury

1009
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 3: that Wakefield had the impact of the chair, sort of

1010
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 3: a bludgeoning with a chair, considering that there isn't going

1011
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 3: to be any damage to the torso, is consistent with

1012
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:53,879
Speaker 3: what the pathologist found. So there's a little check mark

1013
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 3: in my head, going, Okay, that at least is something

1014
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 3: that lines up with the evidence. Necessarily definitive. But if

1015
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 3: the wound to the head is the only aspect of

1016
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 3: how Wakefield was killed, then that's consistent with pathologists not

1017
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 3: finding anything to the torso. The fact that George is

1018
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 3: changing his story, you know, this is where I you know,

1019
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 3: I get into you know, on one hand, just just

1020
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 3: up front. On one hand, is at any time you

1021
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 3: get somebody who starts changing their story voluntarily, now that

1022
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 3: becomes a problem because sometimes they change their story as

1023
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 3: they learn more about the details of the crime, and

1024
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 3: then they're going, oh, I've got to account for that.

1025
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 3: And because they've got this elaborate lie that they've you know, constructed,

1026
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 3: the lie is not accounting for some of the new

1027
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 3: details that they have found out. But I also have

1028
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 3: concern about law enforcement at this time and their their tactics.

1029
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 4: The fact that.

1030
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 3: You know, you are dealing with now two black suspects.

1031
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:00,040
Speaker 3: Are they trying to get both of them to be

1032
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 3: convicted of this crime and possibly very heavy handed in

1033
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:07,000
Speaker 3: terms of how they are approaching their interview process.

1034
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 2: Ding Ding, Oh, here we go. Yeah, he recanton. He

1035
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 2: said coerced quote unquote by police. I believe it. I

1036
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 2: think the police thought a black woman could not do this.

1037
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 2: I think the black community thought this guy didn't do it,

1038
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 2: and they had been sort of terrorized, some of them

1039
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 2: by this woman. So I think you have people who

1040
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 2: are split. The media and the public believe one thing,

1041
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 2: the police believes something else. So now we're in a

1042
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 2: pickle here with George because he's going on trial and

1043
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 2: they are both charged. George is charged with first degree murder.

1044
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 2: Paul Hannah was charged as an accessory to the murder.

1045
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 3: I go back to my initial instincts about, you know,

1046
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 3: how Hannah is saying this went down, and that you've

1047
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 3: got this George character who she hardly knows, is trying

1048
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:59,400
Speaker 3: to con her about Annie, and you know, get the fight,

1049
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 3: Wakefield is killed. But now Hannah is trying to cover

1050
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,479
Speaker 3: up a crime that this guy that she hardly knows

1051
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 3: and has is probably very angry at George It doesn't

1052
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 3: make sense to me. Why would she take that risk

1053
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 3: to herself. We know, based on the history that Hannah

1054
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 3: and Wakefield had a violence filled relationship in which it

1055
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 3: appears at Hannah is the instigator of the violence. And

1056
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 3: we have a witness that is seeing Hannah on the

1057
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 3: train with what appears to be Wakefield, likely Wakefield's torso

1058
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 3: in the shawl strap and the calico fabric, you know,

1059
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 3: so everything seems to be more swirling around Hannah as

1060
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 3: being responsible versus George. I'm not doubting George try to

1061
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 3: con Hannah. I'm not necessarily doubting that maybe there was

1062
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 3: a fight between George and Wakefield. And I can't tell

1063
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,400
Speaker 3: you whether or not George is the one that swung

1064
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 3: the chair. It just seems like to finger George as

1065
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 3: being sort of the lead in this homicide doesn't sound

1066
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 3: right to me.

1067
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 2: Both George and Hannah are tried separately. They both plead

1068
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 2: not guilty, but George's trial goes first and guests who

1069
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 2: the star witnesses in this case?

1070
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 4: Hannah very good.

1071
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 2: Yes it was Hannah. Yes, all male jury, of course,

1072
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 2: all white jury, of course. Hannah gets on the stand

1073
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 2: and she is very very smart and very composed. She

1074
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 2: sticks with her story with the same details. She says,

1075
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:42,360
Speaker 2: George is the one who did it, George is the

1076
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 2: one who dismembered Wakefield, and all she did was dutifully

1077
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 2: collect some of the body parts, including the torso, and

1078
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:52,880
Speaker 2: throw them in different places to cover it up. What

1079
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 2: Callie Nicole Gross, who is the author, says is that

1080
01:00:55,840 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 2: she came across very sympathetic and solember. She never really

1081
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 2: talks about the affair, which is really good because that

1082
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:05,000
Speaker 2: would not have gone over well with an all male,

1083
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 2: all white jury. She meekly claims that she just sort

1084
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 2: of stood by while the men were fighting, and that

1085
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 2: George was the one who took a hatchet into her

1086
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:16,479
Speaker 2: cellar and hacked up the body, and that she never

1087
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 2: participated or witnessed this firsthand. So what's interesting, Paul, is,

1088
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:25,440
Speaker 2: now that I'm reading this aloud, we have a meat

1089
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:29,680
Speaker 2: saw at George's house, but we don't have a hatchet,

1090
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 2: and the meets all had blood all over it, so

1091
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 2: there just seemed to be a lot of I'm not

1092
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:37,440
Speaker 2: sure that she lines up with what the scene was,

1093
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 2: at least at George's house, but I don't know it's

1094
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:42,240
Speaker 2: all very confusing. No.

1095
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 3: Well, as you know, as I was thinking about the evidence,

1096
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 3: which is Wakefield's torso, you think about the George's skill sets.

1097
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:55,040
Speaker 3: He works in a slaughterhouse. The slaughterhouse, you know, there

1098
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:58,640
Speaker 3: is a process on how they dressed down an animal

1099
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,440
Speaker 3: in terms of skinning the animal, disemboweling an animal, and

1100
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 3: then taking the various cuts of meat, you know, at

1101
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 3: least to the level to where it could go to

1102
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:11,480
Speaker 3: a butcher to be you know, completely partitioned out for

1103
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 3: the customer. And here we have a torso that has

1104
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 3: been roughly cut basically through the mid section through imagine

1105
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 3: the upper lumbar to lower thoracic spine area, but where

1106
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 3: it's going to be below the ribcage. The head and

1107
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:31,080
Speaker 3: the arms and legs are cut off, but the bowels

1108
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 3: were just hanging out. And I would imagine if George

1109
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 3: is the one that is dismembering Wakefield, he's probably going

1110
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 3: to do it in a way that he knows how to,

1111
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 3: which is going to be more of I'm going to

1112
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:52,000
Speaker 3: disembowel the innerds of Wakefield. His internal organs are going

1113
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:53,080
Speaker 3: to go into their own.

1114
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:54,000
Speaker 4: Bake you know.

1115
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:56,560
Speaker 3: Now he's got a cleaner carcass in order to be

1116
01:02:56,600 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 3: able to do what he can do.

1117
01:02:58,520 --> 01:02:59,920
Speaker 4: He's not going to use a hatchet.

1118
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, when you're describing what they saw in this torso,

1119
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 3: was how rough the actual cutting of this torso was.

1120
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:12,160
Speaker 3: It was not done with a knife with somebody who

1121
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 3: has skill, you know. And so this is where this

1122
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 3: hatchet has started to come into play. That almost sounds

1123
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 3: like a slip up right in terms of Hannah knows

1124
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:24,880
Speaker 3: exactly how Wakefield was cut up because she's the one

1125
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:27,280
Speaker 3: that's using a hatchet, which is not a real good

1126
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 3: tool to dismember a body with. It's not an easy tool.

1127
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 2: All of that makes sense to me. I think it

1128
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 2: doesn't make sense to an all male, all white jury

1129
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:40,400
Speaker 2: who still does not believe that a woman would be

1130
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:43,280
Speaker 2: able to do this. And they are looking at George

1131
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 2: Wilson and listening to Hannah and how composed she is

1132
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:49,600
Speaker 2: on the stand and not being able to put this together,

1133
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 2: just like the Lizzie Warden jury couldn't put it together.

1134
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:54,919
Speaker 3: I think one point that I want to make though,

1135
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:58,800
Speaker 3: is that this jury is hearing the prosecution put on

1136
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:03,360
Speaker 3: a case against George, Right, so does the defense come

1137
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 3: up and basically say it wasn't George, it was Hannah.

1138
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:07,960
Speaker 4: You know, I'm.

1139
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 3: Wondering, does this jury do they even get into this

1140
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 3: debate was it George or was it Hannah? Or is

1141
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:18,280
Speaker 3: it just here's the evidence against George. The defense is

1142
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:20,680
Speaker 3: trying to, you know, say, well, now Hannah's is the

1143
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:23,640
Speaker 3: actual real killer, you know, because of this, this and this,

1144
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:28,040
Speaker 3: But they don't hear the full case that is actually

1145
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:31,479
Speaker 3: against Hannah, you know, so they really don't have all

1146
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 3: the details like what we're talking about in order to

1147
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 3: weigh George versus Hannah. They're just going, do we have

1148
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:40,800
Speaker 3: a case against George. The evidence the prosecution is pointing

1149
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 3: at George.

1150
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 2: He's the defendant, and that's why they put George on

1151
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 2: trill first. Yeah, and so this is what ends up happening.

1152
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 2: He is on trial again for first degree murder. His defense,

1153
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 2: of course, is that I had nothing to do with this.

1154
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:56,280
Speaker 2: You know, I had police pressure, I didn't kill anybody,

1155
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:59,480
Speaker 2: I didn't dismember anybody. I didn't do anything except tell

1156
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 2: this woman I had information about this child who was

1157
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:05,320
Speaker 2: in her custody, and that was it. And he has

1158
01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 2: found guilty. His defense team appeals and they win a

1159
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:12,800
Speaker 2: new trial. George is very upset. Of course, he doesn't

1160
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 2: want to go through this again, so he opts to

1161
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 2: take a plea deal to second degree murder and is

1162
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 2: sentenced to twelve years in prison, which quite frankly, seems

1163
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:25,040
Speaker 2: like a very light sentence for second degree murder in

1164
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 2: the late eighteen hundreds. I was a little surprised, but

1165
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:29,440
Speaker 2: he just says, I think I'm going to get with

1166
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,480
Speaker 2: her testimony. I think I'm going to be convicted again.

1167
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 2: This is how quick appeals worked back then. Hannah's trial

1168
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:40,439
Speaker 2: had not even started yet when George appealed and won

1169
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 2: the new trial and then decided to take a plea deal.

1170
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:47,000
Speaker 2: So Hannah, rather than going on trial, also decides to

1171
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:49,920
Speaker 2: take a plea deal to being an accessory to murder,

1172
01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 2: so she never has to go on trial. Nothing ever

1173
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:55,400
Speaker 2: comes out about her. We don't have people taking the

1174
01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:58,400
Speaker 2: stand talking about how terrible this woman is. We don't

1175
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 2: hear Jane saying she slashed my brother with a knife,

1176
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 2: she threatened his life. None of that happens. She gets

1177
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 2: two years, and she only serves one year and then

1178
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 2: she's gone, and that's it. Somebody who I think, and

1179
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:16,520
Speaker 2: you probably think single handedly did all of this herself

1180
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:19,440
Speaker 2: and drag this guy into it who was probably just

1181
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 2: sort of slightly sleazy, and that was it. All of

1182
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 2: this and she gets one year and gets married twice

1183
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 2: and has a kid and vanishes from history.

1184
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 3: Well, part of you when you think about Hannah going

1185
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:32,360
Speaker 3: on trial and you're talking about some of her past crimes,

1186
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:35,440
Speaker 3: in all likelihood, none of those details would have been

1187
01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 3: put in front of the jury just because of the

1188
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 3: prejudicial nature of that. You know, that may have been

1189
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 3: at the sentencing aspect, at least in kind of modern times.

1190
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:50,160
Speaker 3: That's how that likely would have occurred. So the prosecution

1191
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:53,200
Speaker 3: would have to put on you know, the facts of

1192
01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:56,600
Speaker 3: the case in terms of the homicide of Wakefield, did

1193
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 3: not necessarily be able to put in front of the

1194
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 3: jury all the various acts of violence and criminal activities

1195
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:07,600
Speaker 3: that Hannah has committed her in her past.

1196
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:11,440
Speaker 2: But against him, I mean she attacked him before and

1197
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 2: threatened him, So that would have made it in. I

1198
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:15,560
Speaker 2: mean a lot of stuff would have made it in

1199
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:18,040
Speaker 2: the nineteenth century. But I mean, don't you think today

1200
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 2: we would have heard as a jury that two weeks

1201
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:24,240
Speaker 2: before she slashed him and threatened to kill him.

1202
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:26,240
Speaker 3: I think that would have been something that would have

1203
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,680
Speaker 3: been litigated in terms of, you know, outside of the

1204
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:32,440
Speaker 3: jurors presence, and see if the judge felt that it

1205
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:36,439
Speaker 3: was relevant or too prejudicial. I think it could swing

1206
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:40,520
Speaker 3: both ways, Okay, And listening to this case, I am

1207
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:47,040
Speaker 3: in the position of Hannah was responsible for whatever reason,

1208
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:51,000
Speaker 3: which it doesn't seem like we know for sure what

1209
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 3: her motive would have been to eliminate Wakefield, but she

1210
01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:58,480
Speaker 3: took it upon herself to kill him and dispose of

1211
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:02,400
Speaker 3: his body. And you know, we didn't talk about the

1212
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 3: black eye in terms of contemporaneous to this crime.

1213
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 4: Does have a black eye? Would she have resorted to

1214
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:14,000
Speaker 4: poisoning Wakefield? Would she have hit him in the head

1215
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 4: from behind? You know?

1216
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:19,920
Speaker 3: And he's just completely stunned. Does he have the ability

1217
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:20,880
Speaker 3: to fight back?

1218
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:21,600
Speaker 4: Don't know?

1219
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,960
Speaker 3: You know, as I'm kind of thinking out loud everything

1220
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:29,120
Speaker 3: that I'm hearing about this, whether George was an accessory

1221
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:32,160
Speaker 3: or not, I kind of leaned towards he wasn't. I

1222
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 3: think he was an eighteen year old kid that got

1223
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:37,840
Speaker 3: sucked into something and he really didn't know how to

1224
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:38,920
Speaker 3: get himself out of it.

1225
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:41,040
Speaker 4: But Hannah appears.

1226
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:43,880
Speaker 3: To be the one that killed Wakefield and dismembered his bodies,

1227
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:45,800
Speaker 3: and we have witnesses showing that she's the one that's

1228
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 3: at least with one body part getting rid of it.

1229
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:53,080
Speaker 2: So ultimately George survives his sentence of twelve years and

1230
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:58,040
Speaker 2: he vanishes. We know nothing about Annie, but that is

1231
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:00,639
Speaker 2: a product of the times and of her race. Because

1232
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:04,160
Speaker 2: there were very few records, we have no idea. I

1233
01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:06,639
Speaker 2: have a feeling that Annie was not murdered. I think

1234
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 2: that Hannah killed Wakefield because he was leaving her. She

1235
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:12,880
Speaker 2: was being left for another woman. I think this was

1236
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:15,360
Speaker 2: probably an act of passion and then she covered it up.

1237
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:18,800
Speaker 2: But I think Annie was not murdered. I think she

1238
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:21,320
Speaker 2: was floating around out there, and because she was black

1239
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:24,479
Speaker 2: and this was the nineteenth century, she just disappeared from

1240
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:25,080
Speaker 2: the records.

1241
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:28,800
Speaker 3: I'm quite surprised at the amount of detail that there

1242
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:31,920
Speaker 3: is on this case. You mentioned it was fairly high

1243
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 3: profile at the time it was, but.

1244
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:36,320
Speaker 2: It's not something you've heard of, right, I mean, it

1245
01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:39,439
Speaker 2: is not a Sam Shepherd, it's not a Lindbergh baby,

1246
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:41,120
Speaker 2: and it is quite a case.

1247
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:44,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, for sure, you know, but you know, it

1248
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:47,760
Speaker 3: really does underscore obviously we have the race issue in

1249
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 3: terms of the cultural aspects and societal aspects related to it,

1250
01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:55,559
Speaker 3: and how that's going to influence how law enforcement handles

1251
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:57,599
Speaker 3: the case and how the you know, the courts are

1252
01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:00,519
Speaker 3: possibly handling the case at that point in time. But

1253
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:05,360
Speaker 3: also that bias against a woman being capable of doing this,

1254
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:09,920
Speaker 3: and that's where for those that have worked within law

1255
01:10:10,040 --> 01:10:14,240
Speaker 3: enforcement and have seen the violence that women are capable of,

1256
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 3: you know, that is something that in this day and age,

1257
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:22,000
Speaker 3: at least, it is not unexpected. You know, we do

1258
01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:25,120
Speaker 3: not eliminate the idea that, oh, there a woman is

1259
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 3: not capable of committing this crime. There are certain crimes

1260
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:31,400
Speaker 3: that we know are almost exclusively male, and that's when

1261
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:34,719
Speaker 3: you get into the fantasy motivated type homicides that I

1262
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:37,880
Speaker 3: specialize in. But when you start talking about, oh there's

1263
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:39,840
Speaker 3: too much violence here, a woman can't do that, I

1264
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:43,040
Speaker 3: don't know. Women can be very violent.

1265
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:50,639
Speaker 2: And with that, I will see you bat time, same

1266
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:53,639
Speaker 2: bat station next week. Thank you, Paul.

1267
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 4: All right, sounds good? All right, take care.

1268
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:03,519
Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

1269
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 2: and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried

1270
01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:08,120
Speaker 2: Bones Sources.

1271
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:10,640
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1272
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:13,799
Speaker 3: Research by Marey mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1273
01:11:13,960 --> 01:11:16,680
Speaker 2: Our mixing engineer is Leona Scolacci.

1274
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:19,320
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1275
01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:21,599
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1276
01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:26,000
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

1277
01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:29,639
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1278
01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:30,920
Speaker 2: Buried Bones pod.

1279
01:11:31,360 --> 01:11:33,920
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1280
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:35,920
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1281
01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:38,200
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now, and

1282
01:11:38,280 --> 01:11:43,080
Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold Cases,

1283
01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:44,439
Speaker 2: is also available now