WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 10 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.480 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:06.160 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.360 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.240 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.760 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.919 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:31.880 can make your own decisions. What they sing my books, 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:41.720 your grandmother, all of your grandmother's Wow Garrison, my grandmother's dad. 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:45.720 So that they're still facebooking in the grave, I mean, 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:49.720 thank god. No. I think my grandparents briefly got introduced 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:54.040 to my Space before being too sick to use the 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:55.720 internet anymore. They were on a o L for a 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:59.040 while though. Oh that's that's quaint. Yeah, they were on 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:01.720 a o L for a while. Um, you know it's uh, 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:05.600 it's what I don't often say, Thank goodness for Louis 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.920 body demanship. But at least it stopped them from from 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:12.360 knowing the horrors that were to come in the digital age. 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:15.000 They got they got right off the bus before things 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:24.720 got terrible. Yeah, that is so friends, Romans, countrymen, how 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:27.600 do you feel about meta, which is totally what we're 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:30.080 all gonna be calling Facebook for now on for forever. 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:33.400 My main thought, honestly is that like the word meta, 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.200 the past like two years, the word meta has been ruined, 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:41.440 both like pop culture thinking it's smart and then ship 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:44.640 like this, now that a once useful concept has now 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:47.280 been obliterated and we can't use it for anything anymore, 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:50.040 you can't be meta. And and the fact that Facebook 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:51.560 is attempting to use this as the name of their 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:54.960 company shows that Mark Zuckerberg hasn't had a conversation on 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:58.480 even footing in his entire adult life, Like everyone is 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:00.320 trying to get someone out of him every time he 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.000 talks to anybody, so nobody would say, like, you know, Mark, 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:06.440 met is a terrible name for a company. But anyway, 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:08.440 they did that, and they had a big event about 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:10.440 two weeks ago where they got up and talked for 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:12.280 an hour and twenty minutes about the future of the 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:15.359 Internet and what Facebook's vision of the metaverse was going 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:19.200 to be, all this all this very fun stuff. Okay, 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:21.400 so here's the thing. It's a bad idea, and normally, 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:23.760 like bad tech ideas are a dime a dozen, and 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:25.480 we don't cover them on our show because this is 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:29.120 a show. It could happen here about collapse, things falling apart, 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:31.400 and the future and what's going to come next. But 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:34.640 in this case, talking about meta is actually really worthwhile 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:38.760 because meta is one example of how the people who 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:41.600 are kind of in control, or at least in control 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:43.400 of the significant amount of the world that we live in, 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:46.240 particularly the digital spaces that we've all agreed to be 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:49.600 locked into, see the future. I think the thing that 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:51.840 like makes it clear why this is in our wheelhouse 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:55.160 is an article from Wired by Matthew Galt, who's a 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:57.760 buddy of mine. He's a great journalist. Um. And it's 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:00.840 titled Billionaires c VR is a Way to Avoid Radical 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:03.920 Social Change um. And that title does kind of get 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.000 to the get to the nut of it. But the 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:09.760 quotes in this thing are fucking wild. So before we 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:12.240 get into Mark Zuckerberg and his vision of the future 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:14.840 of the Internet and of humanity, UM, I want to 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.679 read some quotes from John Carmack. Um. So, John Carmack 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:21.120 is the guy. He made doom right, Like, you can't 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:24.400 overstate the the impact John Carmack had on gaming, Like 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:28.280 he invented the first, like first effectively the first popular 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:31.920 first person shooter. He was the CTO of Oculus for 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:35.040 a while. UM. And he's very familiar with like three 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:38.680 D digital spaces, Yes, and he's he's very bullish on VR. 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:41.160 UM and he gave a quote, well, not gave a code. 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:44.000 He talked to Joe Rogan during an interview in and 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.640 he said this. Some people read this the wrong way 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:48.600 and react in correctly to it. The promise of VR 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:50.360 is to make the world you wanted. It is not 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:52.920 possible on earth to give everyone all that they would want. 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.480 Not everyone can have Richard Branson's private island. People react 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:59.720 negatively to any talk of economics, but it is resource allocation. 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.800 You have to make decisions about where things go economically. 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:04.600 You can deliver a lot more value to a lot 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:08.880 of people in the digital in the virtual sense. UM. 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.800 And that's one of those things that you can see 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:15.520 how a guy like John Carmack, who was again a 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:17.280 smart guy who's been ahead of the curve on a 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:20.800 number of important things, could could convince himself this is true. 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:22.960 This is absurd, And I think what we see in 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.719 Facebook's video is going to make clear that it's absurd. 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.440 One of the reasons that it's absurd is that UM, 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.520 like everything else, the people who are building them metaverse 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:33.560 have done, like what they've done to the Internet. The 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:39.200 Internet before Facebook and and Twitter and these like these behemoths, 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:44.039 UM used to be weird in decentralized and primarily not 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:46.320 for profit. UM. There was there was a period of 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:48.040 time in which like the idea that you would actually 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.320 make money off the Internet, like really out of like 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:53.000 content or whatever was just silly because it was this 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:55.839 it was impossible to monetize. It was this weird, wild, 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.280 like creative nonsense pile UM. And you can only kind 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:01.120 of make money a around the edges of it, but 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:04.320 the core of it was just just far too strange 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:08.560 and uncontrollable UM, too wild and free. UM. And that's 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:10.960 not the Internet anymore because of the people. Because in 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:12.640 large part of the people who are trying to build 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:15.560 these metaverses and the idea that they would allow poor 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:18.440 people to have the same kind of resources as rich 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:22.520 people in the metaverse there, they can't let that happen. 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:24.320 They're not the kind of people who would let that happen. 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:26.920 They're going to monetize every aspect of this thing. If 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:30.120 it becomes real. We ever have like an all encompassing metaverse, 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:32.919 every every moment of it and everything you do in it, 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:35.320 everything you have in it is going to cost you money, 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:38.880 probably with some kind of bullshit subscription plus adding on, 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.160 you know, like randomized cashes and other like you know, 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:46.480 lootbox type mechanics. Selling gambling the children is the business 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:48.880 model of the future. By the future, I mean it's 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:52.080 been happening. Yeah, it's the business model they want for now. 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:55.520 I will state I think some sort of persistent virtual 0:05:55.600 --> 0:06:00.040 reality thing will probably happen in some way someday. I 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:01.960 don't think any of these people. Part of why my 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:04.240 thesis of this is none of these people are capable 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:06.760 of making it. It's because they look at this the 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:10.680 same way like shitty app developer, shitty like game developers 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.119 for Facebook look at gaming, where it's like everything should 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:14.480 cost money, you should be able to pay to win, 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:17.400 and it's like, well, nobody likes that, like nobody nobody 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.320 likes those games. Those are not the things that are successful. 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.480 Like and it is one of the games that comes 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:25.200 up a lot when people talk about the metaverse is 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.800 Minecraft and what made Minecraft hugely successful and why you 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.760 can kind of plausibly see like, oh, this has elements 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:35.720 of a metaverse where you're everybody's building these gigantic, persistent 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:37.680 things that you can interact with and that you can 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:39.680 make these incredible and people mad like works of art. 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.040 In Minecraft, they did it for free, and they did 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:45.839 it because like nothing costs money really in Minecraft, if 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:48.560 I'm not mistaken, like you can make anything with nothing 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:50.880 just by the game, and then you have the game 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:55.040 and you can build whatever you want. Your equity is effort, right, 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.320 like yeah, yeah, And it's like you know, like what 0:06:57.320 --> 0:06:59.720 what are my friends like learned computer science? So he 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.520 could like, okay, great circuits, right, he like he built 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:05.880 a like functioning computer in this game, just like you can. 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:10.720 You can like it's it's like it's pretty. It's pretty. Yeah, 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:13.120 if you're gonna tell me sometime in the future, virtual 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:15.400 reality in the Internet is going to get like so 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:19.640 good and so pervasive that eventually people will bootstrap together 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:22.840 some kind of metaverse. Yeah, maybe like that that could 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.040 happen if it comes from like a cyber like punk aspect, 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.800 where like emphasis on the punk, then so I can 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:30.760 see this being a thing. But the way tech companies 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:33.200 are talking about this. That's not how people use the 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:37.160 internet currently, specifically, like the mainstream people. There's no way, yeah, 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:39.160 and there's there's a few more. Like one of the 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.120 things that Matt brings up in this article is like 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:44.840 VR is a way to avoid radical social change. UM 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:48.640 is uh like kind of the one of the reasons 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.200 why he's number one, and I think where we should 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:53.800 all be kind of critical about how realistic it is 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:55.600 is is kind of the present state of virtual reality, 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.000 which is about one point seven percent of Steam users 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:00.960 have a VR headset. Steam being kind of the largest 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:04.240 app to try to monitor like how many people are 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:07.000 using VR right, Like, it's kind of your best that's 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:12.360 figuring out the big that's the biggest PC gaming UM headsets. 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.040 Sales of VR headsets did go up about during the 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:17.720 pandemic UM, but that was kind of alongside of surge 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:22.040 in video game sales. VR headsets were already We're already boosting, 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:25.920 and the pandemic definitely it empercies that because it's like, Hey, 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:27.880 I'm stuck at my house. What can I do? Well, 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:30.520 I'll buy like a two oculus so I can, you know, 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:33.680 walk around and fight Ninja's in my living room, and 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:37.160 VR is like real, like VRS cool, like it's I 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.839 have a VR headset for years. It can do. One 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.240 of the things that um I talked talking about, like 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.680 what it takes for technology, new technology to like go viral, 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:49.440 to become like endemic. It has some of that, which 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:50.920 is that as soon as you put one of these on, 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:52.760 most people, unless you're one of the people that it 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:54.720 makes sick. Most people, if you put them, put them 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.280 on and you show them the right thing, they're like, oh, 0:08:57.360 --> 0:08:59.160 this is actually way cooler than I thought it was 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:02.080 going to be. Yeah. UM, So that is like I'm 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.840 not I'm not like has I'm not poo pooing the 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.840 entire idea of VR. UM. And there's there's there's been 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:11.360 some successes on like Half Life. Alex sold about two 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.960 million copies, which is huge for VR, but like also 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:17.600 nothing for a video game, Like that's like for a 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:19.880 big for a fucking Half Life game. That ship, which 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.400 just it just shows that it's still like fractional, which 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:25.400 I don't think any of these people are kind of 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:29.040 missing UM, but it is kind of point to again 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:31.480 the degree to which this technology would have to leap 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.400 up for anything like what Facebook where we're about to 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:37.240 talk like it for that to actually be popular. There's 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:42.200 a difference between developing VR gaming and developing this metaverse 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:46.679 concept which goes way beyond VR gaming. Yeah yeah, um, 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:49.679 but I so what I find what I find so 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:53.200 like doomed about this isn't the technology, even though I 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.200 think it's important to acknowledge, there's a long way to 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:56.760 go just in terms of like how heavy it is, 0:09:56.800 --> 0:10:01.240 how much space you need, how not fully immersive it is. 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:06.240 You know, it's trying to remove lighthouses making it more mobile. Yeah, 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:07.760 there's a lot, there's a lot of stuff that control 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:11.000 schemes are still kind of jank, like, yeah, there's a 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:13.120 lot to be done, but all of that's I mean, 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:15.240 think about the first iPhone, right, it was like a 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:17.559 fucking brick compared to the ship today, all of that 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.560 gets better, and all the first VR headset compared to 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:24.120 the Oculus two, it's like a massive improvement and basically 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.000 every way. I don't think when people criticize this stuff 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.959 by pointing out like how primitive VR is today, I 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:32.880 don't think that means anything. Um, it is like worth noting, 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:34.960 you know, it's current level of adoption but it's not 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.439 people compare this to like three D TVs and stuff. 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:41.360 It's not that three D TVs were immediately obviously from 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:45.000 the beginning, nothing but a but a grift um because 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:48.240 there's nobody wanted what really wanted what three dtvs had. 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.600 Like VR, people do want what VR does, and eventually 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:54.040 the tech will get there. What's bullshit is the idea. 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:56.080 And this is why I think this article by Galt 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:58.280 is so good. The idea that VR is going to 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:02.480 allow the poor and downtrodden of the world to have 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:04.280 a slice of the good life. And this is something 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.760 Karmak is particularly bullish about. Quote not everyone can have 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:09.880 a mansion, Not everyone can have a home theater. These 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:12.840 are things we can simulate to some degree in virtual reality. 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:14.839 Now the simulation is not as good as the real thing. 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:16.319 If you are rich and you have your own home, 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:19.320 theater or mansion or in private island, good for you. 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:21.120 You're probably not the people who are going to benefit 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:23.240 the most. Most of the people in the world lived 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.319 in cramped quarters that are not what they would choose 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:29.360 if to be if they had unlimited resources. Incredibly deranged. Yeah, 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.080 it's out of its mind because that's not how VR 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:34.040 works like I have, Like I can put on my 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:37.360 headset and load up like a nice forest, and it's not. 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:39.560 It's not the feeling of being in a fort like, No, 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.280 that's not. That's not how our senses work. So until 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:44.480 we can hack our own brains the feeling things we 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:47.880 don't actually feel, then it's not a thing. And we're 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:50.720 nowhere close to that level of technology, even just to 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:52.800 the degree that he's talking about, Like yeah, you could 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:54.640 you if you don't have a big home theater, you 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:57.400 could just like put it on and have a huge TV. 0:11:57.480 --> 0:11:59.360 And which is a thing that VR can do now, 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:03.520 like I've it's not it's not good. It's like Garrison, 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:05.600 you come over to three times a week and we 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:08.400 watch movies with all of our friends in my living room. 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:10.960 Like the good thing about it, Like it's nice to 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:12.960 have a large screen. I have a big TV, but 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:18.280 like your friends, you're watching them react, like you're eating 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:20.400 food together. You're doing all this stuff that will never 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.920 really be possible in VR. I have a lot of 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:25.360 respect for John Karmen. He made Doom right, Like that's 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:27.880 a third of my childhood. Um, he's out of his 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:30.560 mind now if he thinks that that's like what people want, 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.320 what poor people want, Like you've been rich for too long, sir, 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:37.320 you don't understand human beings. A particular type of escape, 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.720 like using VR as that type of escapism is totally 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.480 wrong because like VR can be escapism, but it's not 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:45.400 going to trick you into thinking you're living in a mansion. 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.120 That's not that's not how VR works because you're walking 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:50.880 around a tiny room in your house and you can't 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.120 feel anything. You can like walk through cupboards, which is 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:54.920 a great way to play VR games is you can 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:58.640 just like hack it by walking into stuff. And they're 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.560 working on so the article notes that Elon Musk is 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:05.679 working on a brain machine interface called new Link. Yeah, 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:09.000 and who knows what I will say, that's a little 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:12.320 bit like the how how realistic all of those dreams 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:16.920 are um is questionable. That said, something like what they're 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.720 claiming it is will eventually be figured out. I will, 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.439 and it should it will probably probably should be destroyed. 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:25.200 It probably should be destroyed. Not put the chip in 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:31.760 your brain is really bullish on that technology. Gabe Newell 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:33.680 is the guy we have half life for, like he 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:35.960 and he and John Karnak if there's a mount rushmore 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.920 of like gamer dudes, it's they make they make one 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:42.880 of the what they make one of the better headsets. Yeah. Again, 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:45.440 like we're about to talk about Mark Zuckerberg, who I 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:47.760 do not think is a visionary. Both Karmak and Newell 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.439 are visionaries. Doesn't mean they're right, because visionaries are wrong 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:52.360 all of the fucking time. It's part of their job. 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:56.240 But they're both really, really fucking bullish on this. Newell 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:58.280 is a big believer in like the promise of kind 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:00.959 of what the neural link the brain, inner face technology 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:04.839 and vr uh. He told I g NY were way 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.800 closer to the matrix than people realize, which I don't 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.840 think is the case. Um. And Newell is the person 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:13.600 who I've just talked about like how smart he is. 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.320 He is even more out of his mind than John 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.240 Karmack on this ship um. In an interview with New 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:23.680 Zealand's One News Um, he talked about his vision of 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:25.720 the near future, which is a world in which brains 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.960 and computers interface, and computers can make changes to the 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:33.240 human brain he called he called the human body a 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:38.720 meat peripheral Jesus Christ. Okay, so this is lost his 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:40.600 mind this is the this is the thing about like 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.240 VR and like the metaverse in generals is over like 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:47.640 emphasizing that we basically just live in the meat space, 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.280 and the meat space exists just to make content for 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:52.960 the online which is so and the online space is 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:55.360 the actual real space and we just have to operate 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:57.360 inside our meat space to make content for that. This 0:14:57.440 --> 0:14:59.520 is like the way technology has been progressing, the way 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:01.280 tech companies want of things to go. And it's the 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:03.200 most dystopian thing that's going to give so many people 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:07.040 like disassociate of mental disorders because it's not horrible for 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:10.160 I'm going to be super interested to see people of 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.240 my generation, including myself, like how we developed mentally the 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.320 next you know, twenty years, based on how kind of 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:19.560 fake our lives have been because of how much we 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:23.920 exist and socialized within this like false network. It's gonna 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.960 be interesting to watch. I I used to be really 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:30.160 optimistic about aspects of VR. I actually when I was 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:33.800 in mosle I filmed not that like other people did 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:35.880 this before I did, but I was kind of one 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.480 of the early people filming like a a VR documentary 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.760 of some combat of like the Battle of mosle Um. 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:44.640 Aspects of which were aired as A three sixty and 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.680 a bunch of different like TV networks UM, and I 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:52.080 had this belief that, like, yeah, VR, because the visual 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.280 aspect of VR is so good, you know, you know, 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:57.960 even at that point Seen was already so good. I 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:01.360 disbelieve it, like well if you could, because the first 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:02.840 time I ever went into a war zone, it was 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:05.440 such an affecting experience, and I thought like, oh my god, 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.840 if you could somehow carve out this moment of experience 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.960 and like transmitted to other people, maybe that would mean something. 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:13.880 Maybe it would like have an impact on people. I 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.320 do think that is possible in the long Yeah, yeah, 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:20.520 I think maybe we'll like we'll see. The question is like, 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.280 can you give a sh if if you feel like 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:26.760 horror games, the level of like anxiety and some degrees 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.600 trauma of playing like a really well made horror VR 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.880 game is incredibly intense. UM, and that's something that be 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:34.480 done very well. So I feel like that type of 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:36.720 like surreal experience like a war zone could actually be 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.400 carried over to some degree in VR to like change 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.360 people's minds on like hey, maybe war is not good. Yeah, 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.440 I mean that's that's the dream I don't know how 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:47.800 much I still believe that, but reading people like Gabe 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.960 Newell and how they talk about this technology makes me 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.400 lose some hope and you want to throw all the 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:57.440 headsets in. Here's another thing, Game new Will said in 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:00.680 that view Garrison, after calling the human body and beat peripheral. 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.280 You're used to experiencing the world through eyes. But eyes 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:06.760 were created by this low cost bidder that didn't care 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:09.119 about failure rates in r m as, and if it 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:11.560 got broken, there was no way to repair anything effectively, 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:14.520 which totally makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, but it's 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:22.800 not at all reflective of consumer preferences of the human eye. 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:28.119 No like funck like like they There is some aspects 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.199 of trans humanism that I like. I like change like 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:35.240 body parts at will with like my mind. But this 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:37.800 type of stuff you ac you want to throw all technology. 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:40.920 I support the idea of Like it would be great 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.960 if when people lose their eyes completely from like shrapnel 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:48.280 or whatever, some sort of like degenerative disease, we just 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.960 pop new eyes in there. Absolutely we start cloning eyes. 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:54.760 I think that's a great thing. But eyes are amazing, 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:59.879 Like the most the most impressive camera ever were. No, 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.640 we're close to replicating the ability. It is not a 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.040 low cost bitter. It is like they're imperfect, like everything 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:08.919 that that is part of the human body. But like 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.720 the break down said that he can't monetize it. The 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.359 same day, that's problem he's also talking about, like, well 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.240 they break down. It's like, motherfucker, if you used a computer, 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.080 you're gave Newell. I've know you've used a computer, Like 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:24.159 you want to talk about breaking every computer I've ever owned. 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:30.199 I've used Steam before, Like, yeah, Steam, motherfucker. I'd like 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:33.400 I would rather have my eyes and I'm wearing glasses 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:36.360 right now. Go suck an egg and it goes on 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:40.760 because he he can't stop ship talking like reality. He 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.040 talks about like in the in the virtual world he 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:46.320 wants to build, the real world will seem flat, colorless, 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:48.760 blurry compared to the experiences you'll be able to create 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.440 in people's brains. Um And I want you to keep 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:54.920 that in mind, my, my, my dear friends and colleagues 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.960 as we leap now into the Facebook live stream. First 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:01.520 of all, I think would be worth like explaining to 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:04.800 and we've we've danced around what the metaverse is, but 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:07.159 for people who are totally unfamiliarly, do you think it 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:09.439 would be worth giving a general explanation Will that be 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:11.200 covered in the Facebook thing? That's kind of covered in 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:13.119 the because because this is Facebook building it. But I 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:15.520 think we should. You're probably right that we should give 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:17.320 a little bit of context about like where they got 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:20.159 this idea, because again, Mark Zuckerberg has never had an 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:24.200 original thought. It's not um and and gave Newell and 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:27.040 and um John Carmack have had original thoughts in their life, 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:29.120 but this is not an original thought from any of them, 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.040 all of them, everyone anywhere who talks about the metaverse 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:34.600 um is whether or not they know it. A fan 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:38.280 of Neil Stevenson who wrote who wrote a book called 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:41.000 Snow Crash, where the point was that in the future, 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:45.239 the world is a dystopian, corporatized nightmare. And because things are, 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.440 in part because things are so bad and incredibly highly 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:53.560 like advertised and monetized persistent internet called the metaverse that 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:56.560 exists all around us and it's totally immersive has come 0:19:56.600 --> 0:20:00.400 to dominate everyday life. Um and it's a bad thing. 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:03.359 Like snow Crash, He's a story of like, wouldn't this 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:05.960 future be horrible. Yeah, it's not like, hey, this is 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:07.879 a cool thing, but these tech guys read this and 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:10.040 they're like, oh yeah, that seems like fun. But you 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.040 could do that. Neil Stevenson, who was yet another person 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:15.640 I respect, made one crucial flaw, which is he gave 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:18.520 the hero in his book a katana. And because the 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:23.320 hero in his book katana, everyone was like, wouldn't this 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:25.520 be rad if this were the future, Let's make this 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:28.119 be the entire future. It's a real trash. You need 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:32.400 to abolish katanas, like, we would save so many lives. Honestly, 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:34.760 you could probably make a strong case that the Katana 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:37.000 has a huge chunk of the cultural weight that it 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:40.120 has because if Neil Stevenson, um, he's a big part 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:41.520 of that, right, you know, you've got a lot of 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:43.720 movies and stuff too. But yeah, but like the Katanas, 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:46.240 i mean punk kind of melding. Yeah, and it's it's 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:48.719 a it's a it's a very I mean, it's it's 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:50.600 a bit dated now, but it's still like a good 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:52.879 book to read. Like there's a bunch of silly stuff 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:55.520 like that. It's replicating a lot of others cyberpunk art, 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:59.119 some better, some worse. Yes, some worse cough cough, Ready 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:03.240 Player one. Yeah, and every like every not every cyberpunk sense, 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:05.280 because there's people like Corey doctor Oh who do some 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:09.040 really cool shit. Um, but most cyberpunk senses to some 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:13.720 extent um borrowed from from Neil Stevenson's work, and Facebook's 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:15.640 entire idea is based on this. And so the idea 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:19.320 is that it is a persistent, fully immersive digital world 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:22.560 that interacts with the real world. So you can be 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:24.840 in VR hanging out with friends from around the world 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:27.040 and like a fake living room and then like call 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:28.960 someone and see like a video of them in the 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:31.320 real world, is they're like walking to a concert or whatever, 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:33.359 and like talk to them and like make plans. Like 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:38.320 that's the idea, right. Um. So this video, this face, 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:40.160 it opens with you know, you've got your your little 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:42.600 introduction music and stuff, and then we see Mark Zuckerberg 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:47.239 looking like a fucking gollum um. Yeah. And and the 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:49.920 first thing that I really noticed about this is that 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:53.200 he talks about how we're all going to do this together, 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:55.760 meaning invent the technologies and use cases that are going 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:59.000 to make the metaverse worthwhile. Um. And when he says 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:00.960 all of us. This is not an internal Facebook video. 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:03.600 This is a video. The meta video is heavily angled 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:08.840 towards developers UM and investors UM and it's been viewed 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:10.640 by a lot of people, like twelve million to date. 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:13.080 But he's talking about like a big part of what 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:15.560 he's saying is that like the technology for all of 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:18.320 the stuff that we've rendered, because most of what's rendered 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:20.800 in this isn't game footage so to speak, like it's 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:23.280 not a game or whatever. It's here's how it might 0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:26.760 look if the technology has ever invented. Like nothing, nothing 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:29.240 is like in engine or anything close to it. It's 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:32.199 a it's all speculative. What's interesting about this to me 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:34.600 is that he's he is saying we're going to build 0:22:34.640 --> 0:22:37.840 this together and and sort of acknowledging that like Facebook 0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:39.880 does not have the capacity to make this thing they've 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:42.560 dreamed about, but Facebook is going to own it. So 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:45.160 he's a lot of like this is him tacitly admitting 0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:48.080 I want to take your surplus value to make a 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:51.240 metaverse that I then control and monetize entirely at my 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:55.200 own discretion, which is cool, it's great, and it's also 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:57.199 like I think, you know, I think if if, if 0:22:57.200 --> 0:22:59.280 you want a sign of where this is actually going 0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:01.680 and like the real creativity behind this, Like okay, again, 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:04.120 everything in that video is a mock up, right. It 0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:09.600 looks like dogshit. It's so ugly, it's hideous. It looks 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:13.000 like a fucking Connect game or like a fucking we game, 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:17.399 which is fine. I don't want to live there, like 0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:21.359 it's always weird in cartoony. Um. Yeah, So he talks 0:23:21.400 --> 0:23:23.280 about and kind of laying out why he thinks this 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:25.720 is the future. Zuckerberry talks about how text used to 0:23:25.760 --> 0:23:28.879 be the basis of everything online, but now like photos 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:33.800 and videos dominate and that's yeah, as that change happened 0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:36.760 from like text to video to photos to videos. The 0:23:36.880 --> 0:23:39.320 next change, he kind of frames it like the the 0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:42.880 the the obvious next evolution is to what he calls 0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:46.800 an embodied Internet where you're part of the experience, and 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:49.720 that's the metaverse, which again that if you don't I 0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:52.360 think that part has some true I agree. I don't 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:56.160 think he's entirely wrong there. Obviously that's not his idea. 0:23:56.560 --> 0:24:00.320 Um oh, running out of time, Okay, thank you for 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:03.000 telling about the host and now because it's unlimited minutes. Great, 0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:08.200 Thanks zoom um speaking of meta verses. Um like, Yeah, 0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:12.760 I'm gonna I'm gonna flop onto a share screen and 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:15.280 I'm gonna show you guys a section from this from 0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:20.480 this video, think about computers or phones today. Now, since 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:24.600 we're doing this remotely today, I figured let's make this special. 0:24:25.359 --> 0:24:28.680 So we've put together something that I think is really 0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:31.320 going to give you a feeling for what this future 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:35.800 could be like. We believe the metaverse will be the 0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:39.720 successor to the mobile Internet. We'll be able to feel present, 0:24:40.119 --> 0:24:42.360 like we're right there with people, no matter how far 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:45.679 apart we actually are. Okay, so I'm pausing it here 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:47.959 because I want you to watch this. The room that 0:24:48.000 --> 0:24:51.480 Mark Zuckerberge is in, he's not in the metaverse yet, 0:24:51.520 --> 0:24:53.359 he's in like a house. I think it's supposed to 0:24:53.400 --> 0:24:56.959 be his house. It is clearly not a place human beings. 0:24:57.040 --> 0:24:59.160 It has been set dressed. Um. One of the ways 0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:00.560 you can tell is that all of the books and 0:25:00.600 --> 0:25:03.359 picture frames on the bookcase are like the same flat tones, 0:25:04.000 --> 0:25:05.760 because they're not meant to stand out there, meant to 0:25:05.760 --> 0:25:09.520 blend in and very telling Lee this is what's interesting 0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:11.560 to me. As soon as he steps into the frame 0:25:11.600 --> 0:25:13.320 where he's going to announce this. The thing that is 0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:15.760 directly next to his head is the only thing that's 0:25:15.760 --> 0:25:18.240 not like the same kind of baige as everything. It's 0:25:18.240 --> 0:25:20.560 a bottle of barbecue sauce that's being used as the 0:25:20.600 --> 0:25:23.639 book ind to a bunch of books now Meta. Immediately 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:26.120 after this, like people joked about it online and Meta 0:25:26.160 --> 0:25:28.199 started tweeting about it and like trying to make like 0:25:28.520 --> 0:25:30.840 jokes about oh, Mark just loves his you know, his 0:25:30.840 --> 0:25:32.840 his barbecue so much. Like they tried to turn it 0:25:32.920 --> 0:25:37.000 into a meme because they think it's humanizing and and 0:25:37.160 --> 0:25:39.520 and kind of one aspect of the meme they were 0:25:39.520 --> 0:25:41.679 putting together is that like, oh, he just forgot to 0:25:41.960 --> 0:25:43.960 you know, he just he's he's so into barbecue that 0:25:44.000 --> 0:25:47.280 he leaves his saucer that was put there on someone's orders, 0:25:47.320 --> 0:25:49.560 Like that was it was to create me. We're seeing 0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:54.159 we're seeing marvels as well. They're releasing promotional images specifically 0:25:54.240 --> 0:25:56.840 designed to be turned into memes, and it doesn't work 0:25:56.840 --> 0:25:58.920 because it's so obvious, like because we'd be like, you know, yeah, 0:25:58.920 --> 0:26:00.440 we're not going to use this because it's it's a 0:26:00.560 --> 0:26:05.040 it's a dogshit horrible, it's like horrible cinematography, bad colors, 0:26:04.760 --> 0:26:07.480 and it's not a fun meme. But people did follow 0:26:07.480 --> 0:26:10.040 for the Mark Zuckerberg thing. Uh like, oh look at 0:26:10.040 --> 0:26:12.280 the barbecue thoughts. But yeah, that was intentional to create 0:26:12.320 --> 0:26:15.720 like a viral thing to trip. Yeah, anyway, I'm gonna 0:26:15.760 --> 0:26:18.600 let Mark continue here after I made my little point. 0:26:18.960 --> 0:26:21.080 When I send my parents a video of my kids, 0:26:21.359 --> 0:26:23.560 they're gonna feel like they're right in the moment with us, 0:26:23.640 --> 0:26:27.119 not peering through a little window. When you play a 0:26:27.119 --> 0:26:29.880 game with your friends, you'll feel like you're right there 0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:33.080 together in a different worlds, not just on your computer 0:26:33.200 --> 0:26:36.440 by yourself. And when you're in a meeting in the metaverse, 0:26:36.800 --> 0:26:39.560 it'll feel like you're right in the room together, making 0:26:39.640 --> 0:26:42.760 eye contact, having a shared sense of space, and not 0:26:42.840 --> 0:26:47.120 just looking at a grid of faces. So that's important 0:26:47.160 --> 0:26:49.520 because a big aspect of what he's trying to sell here, 0:26:49.560 --> 0:26:52.920 why he's he's trying to convince people that this is 0:26:52.960 --> 0:26:56.840 a real thing, is that it's a bomb for loneliness. Right. Um, 0:26:57.119 --> 0:26:59.400 he is, he is, and he's one of people who's 0:26:59.400 --> 0:27:02.639 responsible for pushing our society to such an atomized and 0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:06.120 isolated direction. Facebook propaganda has isolated huge numbers of people 0:27:06.119 --> 0:27:08.760 from their families. It's um. And of course then there's 0:27:08.760 --> 0:27:10.600 just the aspect of it that is the lockdown, which 0:27:10.600 --> 0:27:12.680 has isolated people a number of a lot of which 0:27:12.680 --> 0:27:16.719 ties back to disinformation spread on Facebook. But like, um, 0:27:16.760 --> 0:27:19.159 he's he's, he's selling this, you know, as a this 0:27:19.200 --> 0:27:21.239 will make you less lonely, will make you feel like 0:27:21.280 --> 0:27:25.920 you're all together. Um, and it's it's He's specifically says 0:27:25.960 --> 0:27:28.760 at one point, this isn't about spending more time on screens. 0:27:28.760 --> 0:27:32.520 It's about making the time we spend on screens already better. Um, 0:27:32.560 --> 0:27:35.240 which is horseshit because, as the Facebook papers make clear, 0:27:35.280 --> 0:27:37.879 Facebook has repeatedly refused to do things that would have 0:27:38.240 --> 0:27:40.359 reduced the harm of their platform because it would have 0:27:40.359 --> 0:27:42.520 reduced the traffic that they've got. And I think those 0:27:42.520 --> 0:27:45.040 are the kind of decisions you can Yeah, I mean 0:27:45.160 --> 0:27:48.000 and still like technologically we're still not there, Like when 0:27:48.040 --> 0:27:51.040 when when you're in VR you even if you're interacting 0:27:51.080 --> 0:27:54.240 with other like three D like personas of people specifically, 0:27:54.280 --> 0:27:56.680 like vr chat was very popular among like furries, and 0:27:56.720 --> 0:27:58.399 I think they are Honestly the best example of what 0:27:58.440 --> 0:28:01.480 the metaverse could actually be is how furries use vr 0:28:01.600 --> 0:28:05.520 chat um. But even still that is very different um 0:28:05.800 --> 0:28:08.840 than standing in a room with someone in a first suit, right, Like, 0:28:08.880 --> 0:28:13.199 it's it's totally it's it's totally different. And metaverses and 0:28:13.240 --> 0:28:16.040 this type of thing. I don't think we'll actually solve alienation. 0:28:16.280 --> 0:28:19.960 I don't think it's because you're not actually touching anyone, 0:28:20.080 --> 0:28:22.959 Like it's it's not if you're not. There's still that 0:28:22.960 --> 0:28:25.800 that that digital fog between you and everything else. Do 0:28:25.840 --> 0:28:27.760 I think there's some elements of it that could be developed, 0:28:27.760 --> 0:28:30.000 specifically using a R that would make things a little 0:28:30.000 --> 0:28:33.200 bit cool. Yeah, uh, but it's not going to solve 0:28:33.240 --> 0:28:36.159 alienation as a concept. In fact, it could actually make 0:28:36.160 --> 0:28:38.520 it worse. It could make it worse. Like again, there's 0:28:38.520 --> 0:28:40.160 some use cases for I don't know, people who have 0:28:40.200 --> 0:28:41.920 like a l S. Maybe you could develop some sort 0:28:41.920 --> 0:28:45.120 of rig that would allow them to interact like more 0:28:45.240 --> 0:28:47.840 with with people around them and like that could be 0:28:47.920 --> 0:28:50.280 useful for those people. But like, it is not a 0:28:50.320 --> 0:28:52.560 societal answer to loneliness. And I think one thing that 0:28:52.600 --> 0:28:54.200 makes that clear is you look at their vision of 0:28:54.240 --> 0:28:56.400 home spaces. So this is kind of the center of 0:28:56.440 --> 0:28:58.560 the of the metaverse. They want to build is everybody 0:28:58.560 --> 0:29:01.720 has their little digital home um that you can set 0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:04.000 up and you can design to your liking, and you 0:29:04.040 --> 0:29:07.080 can buy things like n f T s to decorate it. 0:29:07.120 --> 0:29:08.680 This becomes a big part of the pitch that like 0:29:08.760 --> 0:29:09.920 n f T s are going to be in it 0:29:09.960 --> 0:29:11.760 and like that way you know that they have at 0:29:11.760 --> 0:29:14.640 one point, like somebody buys like an autographed poster for 0:29:14.800 --> 0:29:17.640 a Metaverse concert that's an n f T and they 0:29:17.640 --> 0:29:19.160 get to put it in their room and know that 0:29:19.200 --> 0:29:22.240 it's the only one of those posters or something, which 0:29:22.280 --> 0:29:27.280 is the dumbest thing I can imagine. Um, maybe it'll work. 0:29:27.360 --> 0:29:29.680 I don't know. I I don't really see how that's 0:29:29.720 --> 0:29:33.000 any different from an n f T being revolutionary case 0:29:33.040 --> 0:29:35.600 than like, you know, being able to buy something in 0:29:35.720 --> 0:29:38.200 a fucking video game. No, it's it's just the way 0:29:38.200 --> 0:29:41.680 people already hate to do. Yeah, it's it's just skins 0:29:41.760 --> 0:29:45.200 or whatever bullshit cosmetic stuff I want. Number One of 0:29:45.240 --> 0:29:47.360 the things that's in entertaining about this is how bad 0:29:47.400 --> 0:29:48.920 a lot of the acting is for all of the 0:29:48.960 --> 0:29:51.320 money and time they have. Like Mark Zuckerberg is a 0:29:51.360 --> 0:29:54.640 ship presenter and and this bit where he tries to 0:29:54.800 --> 0:29:58.360 explain why the home space is so cool? Um and 0:29:58.480 --> 0:30:00.920 it shows you like their home space. It starts about 0:30:00.920 --> 0:30:02.760 four thirty on the video of people at home when 0:30:02.800 --> 0:30:06.000 a watch is just a perfect, perfect encapsulation of like 0:30:06.080 --> 0:30:08.800 how inhuman this this world they want to build really 0:30:08.840 --> 0:30:10.760 feels what even when they try to present it in 0:30:10.800 --> 0:30:16.640 its best face? Okay, Mark, Hey, what's going on? We're 0:30:16.680 --> 0:30:20.720 floating in space this place that's awesome, right, it's from 0:30:20.760 --> 0:30:23.800 the creator I met in l Ah. This place is 0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:28.120 amazing that you of course it's me. You know, I 0:30:28.160 --> 0:30:30.040 had to do the robot man. I thought I was 0:30:30.080 --> 0:30:36.000 supposed to be the robot. WHOA. I knew you were bluffing. 0:30:38.920 --> 0:30:45.520 Where is Nai? Let's call her Naomi? Hey? Should we 0:30:45.560 --> 0:30:48.040 deal you in? Sorry I'm running late, but you've got 0:30:48.040 --> 0:30:50.160 to see what we're checking out. There's an artist going 0:30:50.160 --> 0:30:53.360 around Soho hiding a r pieces for people to find. 0:30:55.360 --> 0:31:00.000 Really street art, that's cool. So I wanted to stop 0:31:00.080 --> 0:31:03.040 here because this is also part of like what's it's 0:31:03.080 --> 0:31:05.040 this perfect? It's like n f T culture and all 0:31:05.080 --> 0:31:07.360 this ship like the street art they show, this is 0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:09.040 clearly them trying to be like, here's one of these 0:31:09.040 --> 0:31:11.200 cool use cases for how the metaverse is going to 0:31:11.240 --> 0:31:13.760 interact with and influence the real world. Like this artist 0:31:14.280 --> 0:31:16.560 pastes this art on a wall that when you look 0:31:16.560 --> 0:31:18.640 at it in the metaverse or when you you film 0:31:18.720 --> 0:31:20.240 it and you send a video to people in the metaverse, 0:31:20.280 --> 0:31:22.800 it becomes this big three D thing and it it 0:31:22.880 --> 0:31:24.400 just looks like ship. It's just a bunch of like 0:31:24.400 --> 0:31:28.280 squiggly lines and stuff. Like. It's not like there's good graffiti, 0:31:28.560 --> 0:31:32.440 especially in San Francisco, there's incredible fucking graffiti. Um, this 0:31:32.560 --> 0:31:34.840 is just like nonsense. It looks like it looks like 0:31:34.840 --> 0:31:37.040 a fucking n f T. Like it's just this this 0:31:37.120 --> 0:31:39.560 kind of shitty. It was obviously designed by a computer, 0:31:39.680 --> 0:31:42.600 not an actual person. Yeah, and there's nothing like it 0:31:42.640 --> 0:31:45.760 doesn't say anything. There's nothing cool about it. Um and 0:31:45.800 --> 0:31:48.600 they haven't again because Mark Zuckerberg can't conceive of art. 0:31:48.960 --> 0:31:51.800 There's nothing about this that like makes me think, oh 0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:54.400 what a need futuristic thing. It was like, oh cool, 0:31:54.440 --> 0:31:58.520 I can see squiggly lines in person and on my phone. 0:31:58.640 --> 0:32:00.480 I mean, the big metaverse and like a R and 0:32:00.560 --> 0:32:04.080 VR is like you know, making depth within actually making 0:32:04.120 --> 0:32:05.960 two D space appear to be three D space. This 0:32:06.000 --> 0:32:08.880 still looks too D like it doesn't. It's not. It's 0:32:08.880 --> 0:32:11.520 not tricking my brain in any way whatsoever. Especially with 0:32:11.600 --> 0:32:13.560 the concept of like filming it on your phone. We 0:32:13.600 --> 0:32:16.120 have the technology now like that's not that's not the metaverse. 0:32:16.160 --> 0:32:20.160 That's just filming it already on your little box, as said, 0:32:20.240 --> 0:32:22.280 and we have the technology to do like that. A 0:32:22.520 --> 0:32:27.000 r thing with fucking um with your Pokemon Go did 0:32:27.040 --> 0:32:30.280 that like five years ago, and it's not what people want. 0:32:30.640 --> 0:32:35.600 Um well, Pokemon long time, but we ever got to 0:32:35.600 --> 0:32:38.200 world peace and it was a CIA. Pokemon Go is 0:32:38.480 --> 0:32:41.800 the closest we ever got to like the metaverse, like realistically, 0:32:42.240 --> 0:32:45.120 but people don't want People don't want to like take 0:32:45.200 --> 0:32:48.680 photos of crappy street art that then becomes three D 0:32:48.880 --> 0:32:52.880 but still isn't like it is. It is incredibly grim 0:32:52.960 --> 0:32:57.120 that most of like the case uses for metaverse stuff. 0:32:57.120 --> 0:32:59.160 The only thing they can imagine it being is like 0:32:59.320 --> 0:33:02.920 fucking met This is like the biggest thing that they show. 0:33:02.920 --> 0:33:06.280 He's like, oh, we can make virtual meetings. They've tried that. 0:33:06.400 --> 0:33:08.320 The video that we just played. They're all in like 0:33:08.400 --> 0:33:12.160 this spaceship and everybody's three D like one person. It 0:33:12.160 --> 0:33:14.040 looks like kind of a hologram of their real bodies. 0:33:14.080 --> 0:33:16.320 Some people are just like three D rendered cartoons of themselves. 0:33:16.400 --> 0:33:18.560 One person is a big robot, and they're all like 0:33:18.640 --> 0:33:20.920 floating in zero G and playing card sitting at a 0:33:20.960 --> 0:33:23.480 table and playing virtual cards, and there's like a bed 0:33:23.520 --> 0:33:25.160 in the background. But like, you can't go in the 0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:27.120 bed because it's not a fake. It's a fake and 0:33:27.160 --> 0:33:30.360 you're not floating in zero G because will never be 0:33:30.400 --> 0:33:33.160 able to trick you into thinking you're sitting in a 0:33:33.040 --> 0:33:35.000 in a in your chair in a room with some 0:33:35.040 --> 0:33:38.360 ship on your face. You're you're fucking Carl Havoc and 0:33:38.400 --> 0:33:40.640 trying to pretend that you're like having a good time 0:33:41.040 --> 0:33:43.040 playing cards with your friends. It's like, yeah, if I 0:33:43.040 --> 0:33:45.280 could have a space station house where my friends and 0:33:45.280 --> 0:33:47.440 I could float around and play cards, that would be sick. 0:33:47.520 --> 0:33:51.240 But you're not promising that. Are you doing that? Um? 0:33:51.600 --> 0:33:54.520 Like there is there is games that simulate zero G. 0:33:54.960 --> 0:33:57.960 They don't trick you. They make you nauseous. Sometimes it 0:33:58.040 --> 0:34:00.320 can be fun, but like it's I'm not going to 0:34:00.360 --> 0:34:03.320 be in the same way that eating Hawaiian baby woodrow 0:34:03.440 --> 0:34:08.360 seeds can be fun. Um. Yeah, So he goes on 0:34:08.400 --> 0:34:10.920 to talk about the avatars that you'll have, which are 0:34:10.960 --> 0:34:14.000 basically he describes them as pro profile pictures, but much 0:34:14.080 --> 0:34:17.640 richer because they're live, which I find unsettling and part 0:34:17.719 --> 0:34:19.640 by thinking about what will happen when people die to 0:34:19.680 --> 0:34:23.440 their digital avatars. But whatever. Um. At this point he 0:34:23.440 --> 0:34:25.239 goes on to talking about how people he thinks people 0:34:25.239 --> 0:34:28.400 are going to actually use these avatars, and it's, um, 0:34:28.440 --> 0:34:31.920 it's very unhinged one for hanging out and maybe the 0:34:32.000 --> 0:34:34.880 fantasy one for gaming. You're gonna have a wardrobe of 0:34:35.000 --> 0:34:39.120 virtual clothes for different occasions, designed by different creators and 0:34:39.360 --> 0:34:43.279 from different apps and experiences. So one of the things 0:34:43.320 --> 0:34:45.200 he's talking about that is exciting is that like you'll 0:34:45.200 --> 0:34:49.560 be able to have a different avatar for uh, like work, 0:34:49.640 --> 0:34:51.400 if you're in a work meeting, or like hanging out 0:34:51.440 --> 0:34:55.000 with your friends. Um. And to me, that says, like, oh, 0:34:55.080 --> 0:34:57.440 so now I'm gonna be expected to like maintain and 0:34:57.520 --> 0:35:00.160 keep up an avatar for like my job and like 0:35:00.280 --> 0:35:02.359 dress that fucking thing, and then I'll have to like 0:35:02.400 --> 0:35:05.759 switch to hang out with people, And like why why 0:35:05.800 --> 0:35:08.000 does that? What does that provide me? Being able to 0:35:08.040 --> 0:35:10.960 like sit in a room as an avatar that I 0:35:10.960 --> 0:35:15.200 don't currently have like through zoom, Like why why is 0:35:15.600 --> 0:35:18.240 in what world? Is that something people want? The only 0:35:18.440 --> 0:35:21.080 only good use case for this is Furries. This is 0:35:21.320 --> 0:35:24.320 the only way it worked because they that has almost 0:35:24.400 --> 0:35:26.879 like a true representation of their own body. What what's 0:35:26.920 --> 0:35:29.120 this is gonna do for regularly for like people who 0:35:29.120 --> 0:35:32.200 are not Furries is it'll probade people a lot of 0:35:32.239 --> 0:35:36.839 weird like dysmorphia. Yeah, or if you're or if your 0:35:36.880 --> 0:35:39.239 trends and you make a female avatar, assuming like you know, 0:35:39.600 --> 0:35:41.320 for me, if I was to make like an avatar 0:35:41.520 --> 0:35:44.400 that's more feminine, that can be fun for me. Um, 0:35:44.560 --> 0:35:47.280 But for a lot of people, these weird like digital 0:35:47.719 --> 0:35:50.960 versions of themselves will probably they're just like Uncanny Valley 0:35:50.960 --> 0:35:54.000 and it will probably make you feel weird. Yeah. Um. 0:35:54.040 --> 0:35:58.360 And he's he's so focused on like this as a 0:35:58.400 --> 0:36:01.839 way for people to work together while being remote, which 0:36:01.880 --> 0:36:04.759 says a lot like It's seventh, like like about a 0:36:04.800 --> 0:36:06.719 half minute after this point or a minute or so 0:36:06.800 --> 0:36:09.440 after this point, he brags that your home space can 0:36:09.520 --> 0:36:12.239 even have your own personal office where you work, which 0:36:12.320 --> 0:36:15.279 is within the metaverse, within the metaverse, which is really 0:36:15.320 --> 0:36:20.800 bleak to me, just like digitally ruin your eyes. You 0:36:20.840 --> 0:36:24.160 can goggles that long, your eyes get rude because it's 0:36:24.239 --> 0:36:27.279 blasting light into your re and it's it's also just 0:36:27.360 --> 0:36:31.400 like I like sitting with a laptop, and I have 0:36:31.440 --> 0:36:34.480 a laptop, and I have a second screen for my laptop, 0:36:34.520 --> 0:36:36.879 and I sit at my comfortable living room table and 0:36:36.920 --> 0:36:40.000 I write and browse the Internet and research and stuff. 0:36:40.440 --> 0:36:42.200 And yeah, every now and then, like I hunch over 0:36:42.239 --> 0:36:43.919 too much in my back gets a little bit sore, 0:36:43.960 --> 0:36:46.719 but like it's not. It's it's pretty comfortable, and I 0:36:46.760 --> 0:36:48.800 can get up and move and do stuff in the house. 0:36:49.440 --> 0:36:51.880 Putting a bunch of ship on me and sitting still 0:36:51.880 --> 0:36:55.040 and like being unable to perceive the world around me 0:36:55.080 --> 0:36:58.359 and locked into this uncomfortable digital desk because it's later 0:36:58.440 --> 0:37:00.839 on whenever they do there's this mix of you can 0:37:00.880 --> 0:37:04.200 see the videos of the technology as it actually exists, 0:37:04.239 --> 0:37:06.640 and they're aspirational and the aspirational version. It's like you're 0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:09.319 in this gorgeous three dimensional office that looks so you're 0:37:09.320 --> 0:37:12.840 playing basketball, both in real life and in the hologram, 0:37:12.880 --> 0:37:15.239 which it first of all just impossible, like you're never 0:37:15.320 --> 0:37:19.120 going to do, never ever going to happen, just physically impossible. 0:37:19.320 --> 0:37:21.239 But when you see the clips of like what because 0:37:21.280 --> 0:37:23.040 they do have aspects of this built. When you see 0:37:23.080 --> 0:37:25.799 the clips of like the workspaces they have built, it's like, oh, 0:37:26.680 --> 0:37:30.720 of my screen is the Microsoft word app or excel 0:37:30.960 --> 0:37:33.840 um as it or or Outlook as it currently exists, 0:37:33.880 --> 0:37:37.720 and it is like the edges of this little VR office. 0:37:38.200 --> 0:37:40.960 So all I'm looking at is I'm seeing a full 0:37:40.960 --> 0:37:43.920 eye version of like whatever apps I'm used. You can, yeah, 0:37:43.920 --> 0:37:45.520 you can. You can get a air headset, you can 0:37:45.560 --> 0:37:48.400 download virtual desktop, you can bring your desktop into your 0:37:48.480 --> 0:37:51.440 v into a VR space. It's not useful, like it's 0:37:51.440 --> 0:37:54.400 like it's it's it's novel for the first twenty minutes, 0:37:54.480 --> 0:37:56.040 and then you get bored of it because you realized 0:37:56.040 --> 0:37:57.719 that you can actually see your keyboard so you can't 0:37:57.719 --> 0:38:00.440 type fast. There's a great joke about this in the 0:38:00.520 --> 0:38:04.960 last season the Community, the best example of the metaverse, 0:38:05.000 --> 0:38:07.480 where he's like because like the big part of like 0:38:07.480 --> 0:38:09.759 Epic Games version of the metaverse is like interacting with 0:38:09.760 --> 0:38:12.759 like brands and all your apps within a three three 0:38:12.840 --> 0:38:16.359 D digital space, which is what the Dean does in Community. Yes, 0:38:16.480 --> 0:38:19.320 like run to his email, which yeah, like this is 0:38:19.360 --> 0:38:20.920 a great example of why this technology is never going 0:38:20.960 --> 0:38:23.040 to actually catch on for regular people because that's not 0:38:23.120 --> 0:38:25.440 how they use the Internet. That you don't want to 0:38:25.480 --> 0:38:28.880 traverse a three D digital space to get to your email. 0:38:29.160 --> 0:38:33.279 That's that's asinine. Yeah, and it's there's aspects of it 0:38:33.320 --> 0:38:36.080 that are asinine, and there's aspects of that just thus 0:38:36.120 --> 0:38:38.400 just impossible. So, like a big thing that he's hitting 0:38:38.400 --> 0:38:41.879 on with this is interoperability, which is like you want 0:38:41.920 --> 0:38:44.960 to be able to trans travel between different apps, between 0:38:44.960 --> 0:38:46.920 different programs that different people have made, and you want 0:38:46.920 --> 0:38:48.759 to be able to take like whatever items you buy, 0:38:48.760 --> 0:38:51.680 whatever n f t s you have with you. Um, 0:38:51.719 --> 0:38:53.640 And he's talking about like this will work in games. 0:38:53.680 --> 0:38:55.759 This is a thing that like you've seen people talk 0:38:55.800 --> 0:38:58.160 about with like the promise of n f t s 0:38:58.200 --> 0:38:59.920 for gaming, like you could get an item that like 0:39:00.160 --> 0:39:03.320 is yours so they can't nerve it or or whatever, 0:39:03.360 --> 0:39:05.320 and like it will travel for you from game to game. 0:39:05.719 --> 0:39:08.799 There's a developer I follow on on Twitter. He made 0:39:08.840 --> 0:39:11.480 the game Audios, which is about like a guy who 0:39:11.480 --> 0:39:13.600 disposes of bodies for the mob and tries to quit. 0:39:13.680 --> 0:39:15.600 It's a it's a cool games. He's a good developer. 0:39:15.680 --> 0:39:18.239 Doc something or other. He wrote a huge article about 0:39:18.239 --> 0:39:21.240 like why none of this n f t's can't work 0:39:21.320 --> 0:39:23.320 for gaming? Um that also hits on like why what 0:39:23.520 --> 0:39:26.359 Zuckerberg saying is impossible? Which is that Like, so you're 0:39:26.400 --> 0:39:30.040 saying that everyone who makes a game has to has 0:39:30.080 --> 0:39:33.120 to build in like a way to handle every single 0:39:33.200 --> 0:39:35.279 item that you could possibly get in the metaverse and 0:39:35.280 --> 0:39:39.640 everything that you're having, Like it's it's an unthinkable challenge. 0:39:39.840 --> 0:39:42.279 Um it's and and like why and what if a 0:39:42.320 --> 0:39:44.759 game shuts down? Right, Like are you saying they have 0:39:44.840 --> 0:39:48.000 to continue operating the game forever and updating it forever, 0:39:48.080 --> 0:39:49.920 even once it's no longer profitable so that you can 0:39:50.000 --> 0:39:52.680 keep using your eye Like no, it's just it's it's 0:39:52.680 --> 0:39:57.520 functionally impossible. Um, but it's It's what's interesting to me 0:39:57.560 --> 0:39:59.160 is he's talking about all this. He has to know 0:39:59.280 --> 0:40:01.400 this is impossible when he does. There's all these scenes, 0:40:01.400 --> 0:40:03.600 like you said, where people like playing basketball, and like 0:40:03.680 --> 0:40:05.239 one of them is in the real world and one 0:40:05.239 --> 0:40:07.360 of them is in VR, but they're both playing in 0:40:07.400 --> 0:40:10.600 a real world. And so the person with a with 0:40:10.640 --> 0:40:12.880 a virtual ball, and it's like number one, how is 0:40:12.880 --> 0:40:14.879 the person the real world? How do they feel that ball? 0:40:14.920 --> 0:40:17.840 He assistant vague shit about like haptic feedback, which doesn't 0:40:17.840 --> 0:40:20.319 work that way. Um, maybe there's a way if you're 0:40:20.320 --> 0:40:22.239 wearing like a glove that it could trick you into 0:40:22.320 --> 0:40:25.720 believing you were hitting a ball or something, um like 0:40:25.719 --> 0:40:29.640 like and not everyone's wearing headsets like we're just we'll 0:40:29.680 --> 0:40:33.000 get to that in part two, the headset question. Um, 0:40:33.040 --> 0:40:35.600 but what what what's interesting is that like a huge 0:40:35.600 --> 0:40:38.200 amount of the coolest stuff, the stuff that you can 0:40:38.280 --> 0:40:39.640 be like, well, that would be neat. Yeah, if I 0:40:39.640 --> 0:40:42.759 could fucking if I could fucking play pool with my 0:40:42.800 --> 0:40:44.839 friend in Germany and it would feel like we were 0:40:44.840 --> 0:40:47.359 both in the same room, um, even though only one 0:40:47.400 --> 0:40:49.480 of us is standing around a real pool table. Yeah, 0:40:49.480 --> 0:40:52.120 that would be an amazing feat of technology. It's never 0:40:52.120 --> 0:40:55.440 gonna happen. Um, certainly not in any kind of reasonable 0:40:55.440 --> 0:40:57.600 time for him. Mark knows that all that is going 0:40:57.680 --> 0:41:01.160 to happen. It most is like a digital prince sweet 0:41:01.280 --> 0:41:05.360 that like is damages people's eyes and brains. Um. And 0:41:05.440 --> 0:41:07.680 he knows that, but he's angry that Zoom beat him 0:41:07.719 --> 0:41:10.400 to the to the punch when the pandemic hit. Um. 0:41:10.400 --> 0:41:12.640 And this is his like that's kind of one of 0:41:12.640 --> 0:41:15.359 the sinister things about it. Um, there's other sinister ship, 0:41:15.400 --> 0:41:17.480 which we'll talk about in part two. But you know what, guys, 0:41:19.280 --> 0:41:21.120 it's time to end to part one. This is enough 0:41:21.160 --> 0:41:24.560 for part one. Well, we'll talk more about we'll talk 0:41:24.560 --> 0:41:27.080 about what's really frightening about a lot of what Mark's 0:41:27.080 --> 0:41:29.560 trying to build in part two, But for right now, 0:41:30.120 --> 0:41:33.880 I want to talk about ending the episode which I 0:41:33.920 --> 0:41:52.760 guess I just did Goodbye, Welcome Back. It could happen 0:41:52.840 --> 0:41:55.960 here the show where we're talking right now about the 0:41:56.000 --> 0:41:58.680 metaverse that a bunch of rich people think that you're 0:41:58.680 --> 0:42:01.600 going to want to live in once ruin the regular world. 0:42:01.880 --> 0:42:05.800 Um uh. And why it's dogshit and it is dogshit, 0:42:06.000 --> 0:42:10.960 so it's just it's just it's just total dogshit. Um. 0:42:11.000 --> 0:42:13.000 Everything about this, I don't know. It seems like a 0:42:13.000 --> 0:42:15.520 waking nightmare to be to me so far if we're 0:42:15.520 --> 0:42:17.319 actually talking about like what they are, what they are 0:42:17.360 --> 0:42:19.759 immediately trying to because a bunch of this is aspirational 0:42:19.800 --> 0:42:22.160 nonsense that as we've stayed at is like you are 0:42:22.160 --> 0:42:24.880 never going to play a perfect game of basketball in 0:42:24.880 --> 0:42:27.040 a mix of real and a R courts with your 0:42:27.080 --> 0:42:30.759 friend in Hong Kong. Like that's never going to happen. Never, 0:42:32.280 --> 0:42:35.000 That's not how physics works, that's not how electronics works. 0:42:35.360 --> 0:42:37.799 Maybe when we find out how to literally hack the 0:42:37.880 --> 0:42:41.200 human brain, we can like put you into a quasi 0:42:41.320 --> 0:42:44.759 seizure state that that that that mimics that. But like 0:42:44.800 --> 0:42:46.920 the closest, the closest thing we have to this right 0:42:46.920 --> 0:42:49.959 now is actually uh VR board games is the best 0:42:50.239 --> 0:42:52.000 is the best example of this. Or you can play 0:42:52.040 --> 0:42:54.640 with you can play Settlers of Catan with your friend, 0:42:54.640 --> 0:42:57.040 a classic across the Yeah, and there's some cool ship 0:42:57.120 --> 0:42:59.400 you can do with haptics and haptic feedback is like 0:42:59.480 --> 0:43:01.279 the base example of it is when you like touch 0:43:01.320 --> 0:43:03.399 your phone and your phone like vibrates under your hand 0:43:03.440 --> 0:43:05.440 to like let you know that you've you've touched like 0:43:05.640 --> 0:43:08.279 a command. And there's there's people who think like at 0:43:08.320 --> 0:43:10.160 some point we would be we may be able to 0:43:10.200 --> 0:43:13.680 make using haptic feedback, like a virtual keyboard that feels 0:43:13.680 --> 0:43:17.680 like a real keyboard. That might be possible. That's still 0:43:18.280 --> 0:43:21.239 that's still like kind of like the idea of a 0:43:21.320 --> 0:43:24.120 keyboard that isn't there but feels like a real keyboard 0:43:24.480 --> 0:43:28.759 might be that that's still on the fringes of possibility 0:43:28.840 --> 0:43:31.040 like this, The fucking ship they're showing in this video 0:43:31.200 --> 0:43:34.960 is like nonsense. We will have laser cannons before we 0:43:35.000 --> 0:43:37.760 have any of this bullshit, like we will be shooting 0:43:37.760 --> 0:43:40.960 each other in space before we have this nonsense. Um, 0:43:41.000 --> 0:43:43.520 And thank god for that because at least that sounds fun. 0:43:43.840 --> 0:43:46.160 So the actual center of what they've built in terms 0:43:46.160 --> 0:43:49.400 of the products that that Facebook is launching now for 0:43:49.400 --> 0:43:52.160 the metaverse, UM, the core of it is Horizon Home 0:43:52.239 --> 0:43:54.360 and Horizon World. And I think Horizon is kind of 0:43:54.360 --> 0:43:56.080 the brand they're going with for all of their different 0:43:56.080 --> 0:44:01.120 like meta programs. UM. Horizon Home is the home spaces 0:44:01.160 --> 0:44:03.799 thing that they discussed earlier, where people can like make 0:44:03.840 --> 0:44:05.839 their own like houses. And one of the things they 0:44:05.880 --> 0:44:07.560 don't talk about in this they keep saying like you 0:44:07.560 --> 0:44:09.279 can build whatever you want, you can make it look 0:44:09.320 --> 0:44:11.920 like anything. They don't say a word about how like 0:44:12.040 --> 0:44:15.799 decorating your digital home is going to be monetized versus 0:44:15.840 --> 0:44:17.880 how much of it will be sweat equity. And again, 0:44:18.160 --> 0:44:20.360 like the smart thing would be make it all sweat equity, 0:44:20.400 --> 0:44:23.240 make it like minecraft, make be able to build anything 0:44:23.280 --> 0:44:25.799 they can conceive of. If they're actually creative enough and 0:44:25.840 --> 0:44:28.680 spend the time. They won't do that, um as they 0:44:28.920 --> 0:44:31.160 talk about in that like in the video they played 0:44:31.200 --> 0:44:32.600 like we're like, oh, this is a cool world. It 0:44:32.680 --> 0:44:35.600 was made by a developer. Like yeah, you're gonna buy 0:44:35.600 --> 0:44:37.400 the cool ship. Um I don't. I don't know what 0:44:37.719 --> 0:44:39.680 you're gonna buy it. And it's gonna suck because all 0:44:39.719 --> 0:44:42.040 you can do is sit at a table. Yeah, and 0:44:42.040 --> 0:44:44.759 because like you can't go into bed, like you can't, 0:44:44.960 --> 0:44:47.560 Like all of this stuff is just cosmetic, like it's 0:44:47.880 --> 0:44:49.680 you're not gonna be tricked into thinking it's real. I've 0:44:49.719 --> 0:44:53.440 I've been in cool VR like three D rooms and 0:44:53.520 --> 0:44:57.400 like they're cool to look at for like ten minutes. Yeah, 0:44:58.120 --> 0:45:00.759 any boring Yeah, like it's easy, like oh yeah, it's 0:45:00.760 --> 0:45:02.719 like the real world, but I can't touch anything. And 0:45:02.960 --> 0:45:05.439 when they show you the stuff that's closer to real, 0:45:05.600 --> 0:45:08.400 like the different like people chatting in the metaverse and whatever, 0:45:08.520 --> 0:45:10.640 it doesn't look fun. There's a there's a scene where 0:45:10.680 --> 0:45:14.720 they like show people like watching a YouTube video together 0:45:14.760 --> 0:45:17.080 in the metaverse and they're all like these disembodied upper 0:45:17.160 --> 0:45:20.440 torsos because of course VR sets can't can't read your legs, 0:45:20.800 --> 0:45:23.279 so it's like a bunch of torsos floating around a 0:45:23.360 --> 0:45:27.120 maximized YouTube video window. And it's like I would rather 0:45:27.160 --> 0:45:29.839 just show a friend my phone. I would even rather 0:45:29.920 --> 0:45:33.920 text them a video and being in person with somebody 0:45:34.040 --> 0:45:36.440 watching on a on a phone or even but even 0:45:36.480 --> 0:45:38.680 even if without Like it's the kind I think that 0:45:38.719 --> 0:45:41.880 they're expecting that, Like everyone's kind of bummed when they 0:45:41.920 --> 0:45:44.719 send a friend video over signal or text and like 0:45:44.760 --> 0:45:46.799 wait for them. No, I would rather do that than 0:45:46.800 --> 0:45:48.279 this ship. I don't want to hang out as a 0:45:48.280 --> 0:45:50.600 bunch of torsos around a YouTube. We don't want have 0:45:50.640 --> 0:45:53.560 to schedule of VR session every time I want to 0:45:53.719 --> 0:45:56.840 share of YouTube video. No, that sounds horrible, and it 0:45:56.840 --> 0:45:59.400 sounds like I would constantly have to be in VR. 0:45:59.520 --> 0:46:01.440 Like you talk about how we're not trying to expand 0:46:02.239 --> 0:46:04.920 screen time, but like, am I just waiting around in 0:46:05.040 --> 0:46:08.200 VR to like show friends YouTube? They are really unclear 0:46:08.239 --> 0:46:10.480 about how often you need to be in a headset, 0:46:11.040 --> 0:46:14.000 and it's it's kind of suspicious. It's almost like they 0:46:14.040 --> 0:46:17.759 don't actually plan on doing anything. I want to play 0:46:17.800 --> 0:46:19.759 another video that they claim to be a use case. 0:46:19.760 --> 0:46:22.520 And the way this video starts is like this actual 0:46:22.719 --> 0:46:25.520 person is in an actual real world concert for some 0:46:25.560 --> 0:46:27.680 guy I've never heard of that Facebook. I think he's 0:46:27.719 --> 0:46:30.040 he's some clearly some sort of musician with a following 0:46:30.080 --> 0:46:32.320 the Facebook hired to do a concert for this video, 0:46:32.800 --> 0:46:34.759 and she like calls her friend on the metaverse, and 0:46:34.800 --> 0:46:37.920 her friend digitally hops into the concert and they're like, 0:46:38.200 --> 0:46:40.720 the digital girl and the real girl are like dancing 0:46:40.760 --> 0:46:43.520 together at the show, which I don't know whatever, Like 0:46:43.640 --> 0:46:46.920 that is more possible than the basketball shit. Um, I 0:46:46.960 --> 0:46:50.359 mean yeah, watching having a like a VR version of 0:46:50.400 --> 0:46:52.480 standing in a room where musician plays. Sure, I mean 0:46:52.520 --> 0:46:56.400 it's not. Yeah, yeah, I would debate like whether or 0:46:56.440 --> 0:46:59.000 not it's doable. But then after that they see, like 0:46:59.120 --> 0:47:01.719 during the concert, this like digital thing pops up. That's like, 0:47:01.760 --> 0:47:04.640 do you want to go to a free after party? Um? 0:47:04.680 --> 0:47:06.839 And first off, all of these after parties will cost 0:47:06.880 --> 0:47:09.719 money and they'll all be dogshit, But um, that's the 0:47:09.800 --> 0:47:12.040 same with most real after parties. So I guess that's 0:47:12.160 --> 0:47:16.600 that's at least Facebook accurately delivering on the promise of 0:47:16.640 --> 0:47:21.120 the real world. Um, but I want to play like 0:47:21.160 --> 0:47:24.239 what happens in this metaverse after party that these two 0:47:24.239 --> 0:47:27.680 both hop into digitally after one of them. So like, 0:47:27.840 --> 0:47:29.680 as this starts, the lady who was actually at the 0:47:29.680 --> 0:47:32.480 concert like sits down at home and gets into the metaverse. 0:47:36.320 --> 0:47:39.320 Imagine your best friend is at a concert somewhere across 0:47:39.360 --> 0:47:45.319 the world. Uh oh, what if you could be there 0:47:45.360 --> 0:47:56.440 with her? Yeah? Real? Yeah, real, real and clear? How 0:47:56.440 --> 0:48:00.360 that works? Yeah? Real quick? That the concert? See the 0:48:00.400 --> 0:48:03.680 holographic version? How the person see that? Yeah? Is she 0:48:03.800 --> 0:48:07.759 wearing all that while she's dancing? Everyone wearing VR and 0:48:07.760 --> 0:48:09.719 seeing the world through VR. Because I'll tell you about 0:48:09.800 --> 0:48:14.200 Like right now, I'm I in our put put on 0:48:14.440 --> 0:48:16.799 I put on Oculus as a joke, and right now 0:48:16.800 --> 0:48:18.560 I have it on the pass through mode, which means 0:48:18.600 --> 0:48:20.960 I can see the real world through my cameras in 0:48:20.960 --> 0:48:24.279 the oculus. And you know what it looks like? Shit, Yeah, 0:48:24.400 --> 0:48:26.960 it's black and white. It's super grainy. I can't there 0:48:27.000 --> 0:48:30.080 has it has no like exposure range. Everything is like 0:48:30.160 --> 0:48:33.360 it's it's like you look like you're wearing a sunglasses 0:48:33.520 --> 0:48:37.680 case in your look like the world. But like I 0:48:37.719 --> 0:48:40.280 can't do anything because it all is like a horrible 0:48:40.400 --> 0:48:43.920 digital like like I can't like it's not really like 0:48:43.960 --> 0:48:46.640 I can't do anything aspects of this one, like at 0:48:46.680 --> 0:48:48.520 some point passed through mode will be in color and 0:48:48.520 --> 0:48:53.040 the latency will be notice right, like and there won't 0:48:53.040 --> 0:48:55.239 be late and seeing like yeah, but it'll but it's 0:48:55.280 --> 0:48:58.319 not gonna be still be with your human eyeball. It'll 0:48:58.400 --> 0:49:00.400 it'll still be a thing. So that girl is going 0:49:00.440 --> 0:49:02.520 to have to be at a concert dancing getting super 0:49:02.520 --> 0:49:05.440 sweaty and like she's wearing something, even if it's as 0:49:05.520 --> 0:49:08.719 small as like regular glasses and she's not Like I 0:49:08.800 --> 0:49:11.759 guess better, but it's more to the end. But like, 0:49:12.000 --> 0:49:14.960 if people are actually gonna developed this technology, the real 0:49:15.000 --> 0:49:18.319 way to do it is with a R, not not VR, 0:49:18.360 --> 0:49:20.160 because with a R, yeah, you could have put on 0:49:20.200 --> 0:49:23.279 like actual glasses and have like a person show up 0:49:23.400 --> 0:49:24.879 on the thing and make it look like they're there, 0:49:25.040 --> 0:49:27.480 well actually still seeing the real world. That's gonna be 0:49:27.520 --> 0:49:29.160 the way to do it. Yeah, And I think that 0:49:29.280 --> 0:49:31.440 there's what to do it. Yeah, I think that's what 0:49:31.480 --> 0:49:33.960 they're like claiming here, but it's really unclear how it's 0:49:33.960 --> 0:49:35.759 all going to interface. How the a R is going 0:49:35.800 --> 0:49:38.680 to interface with like the full VR stuff, Like are 0:49:38.680 --> 0:49:40.759 we going to have two separate sets of gear, one 0:49:40.840 --> 0:49:42.600 for when we're in the real world and we can't 0:49:42.640 --> 0:49:44.759 be fully immersive and one for when we want to 0:49:44.800 --> 0:49:47.520 dive into the metaverse as turn it around? Do we 0:49:47.520 --> 0:49:50.160 always carry it around wherever we go? Yeah, but I 0:49:50.440 --> 0:49:52.200 want to play the section. I sorry, I played the 0:49:52.239 --> 0:49:54.200 video where they were at the concert just because it 0:49:54.200 --> 0:49:55.879 it looks very silly. I want to play the section 0:49:55.880 --> 0:49:58.839 where they're at the after party because it's it's dystopian 0:49:58.880 --> 0:50:01.720 as fun. So here's the all all metaverse after party 0:50:01.800 --> 0:50:05.000 that looks like a bunch of fucking connect avatars standing 0:50:05.040 --> 0:50:07.680 around and like a room made out of glowing neon 0:50:07.920 --> 0:50:10.879 digital room. Yeah, nobody's drinking, which is the only good 0:50:10.880 --> 0:50:13.160 thing to do with an afterparty that's not cocaine. So 0:50:13.239 --> 0:50:15.520 from from the jump, I'm like, well, what is the 0:50:15.560 --> 0:50:17.839 only good thing about an afterparty is if you want 0:50:17.840 --> 0:50:22.239 more drugs and all of the drugs places are closed. Party, 0:50:22.400 --> 0:50:24.000 maybe at the end you can hook up with a 0:50:24.000 --> 0:50:28.160 digital avatar. Yeah it's anyway, I'm I'm just gonna play 0:50:28.200 --> 0:50:33.680 this dog shit where they were. This is wild, is it? 0:50:34.960 --> 0:50:43.320 They're just slowly Dancy's a giraffeman. Check this out. Charity 0:50:43.400 --> 0:50:48.400 action for n f T party that looks like ships 0:50:48.719 --> 0:50:57.319 of your favorite song. Yeah, it looks dogs. Yeah. So 0:50:57.360 --> 0:50:59.600 it's like it's it's a it's a horrible three D chat. 0:50:59.800 --> 0:51:02.759 We are already have these, These already exist, and they're 0:51:02.800 --> 0:51:05.759 not tons of fun. They're fun is when you're in 0:51:05.840 --> 0:51:08.400 first suits and you're walking around a fake city destroying it. 0:51:08.400 --> 0:51:11.200 That's the only fun way to do this. And the 0:51:11.239 --> 0:51:14.239 thing they're showing in this is that like an autographed 0:51:14.239 --> 0:51:17.759 poster for the concert um is an n f T 0:51:17.920 --> 0:51:20.000 that you can buy for a charity auction, and like 0:51:20.040 --> 0:51:22.440 as they're looking at it, the actual musician walks by 0:51:22.480 --> 0:51:24.520 and tells them it looks cool, and so they buy 0:51:24.560 --> 0:51:27.359 it and they have the musician come in for that 0:51:27.440 --> 0:51:29.799 number one to like try to make this kind of like, yeah, 0:51:29.840 --> 0:51:31.600 you'll be able to do these digital events where you 0:51:31.600 --> 0:51:34.680 can meet actual celebrities, which like, no, I'm sure celebrities 0:51:34.719 --> 0:51:36.640 will agree to do Q Q and as in the 0:51:36.719 --> 0:51:38.839 multiverse like they do anywhere else. But they're not going 0:51:38.880 --> 0:51:42.200 to just walk around in some dogshit virtual party because 0:51:42.239 --> 0:51:44.399 they have money and they can do actual fun things 0:51:44.400 --> 0:51:47.520 in the actual real world. They're gonna be fucking supermodels 0:51:47.520 --> 0:51:51.400 while skiing down a mountain in Lake Tahoe. Because they're rich. Um, 0:51:51.440 --> 0:51:54.440 they're going to be like flying in their private jets 0:51:54.600 --> 0:51:58.600 or driving in a fucking yacht and eating lobster that's 0:51:58.640 --> 0:52:01.839 been tortured. So it tastes better because they're rich, Like 0:52:02.200 --> 0:52:04.560 they're they're not going to be hanging out in a 0:52:04.600 --> 0:52:08.040 digital lobby telling you that a fucking dogshit poster in 0:52:08.200 --> 0:52:11.360 f t is cool and that you should buy it. Um, 0:52:11.480 --> 0:52:13.960 unless you're a millionaire and they want your money because 0:52:14.560 --> 0:52:16.680 they're Nicolas Cage and they have an addiction to buying 0:52:16.880 --> 0:52:22.680 Tarrannosaurus parts. I don't know, it's it's silly, it's it's ridiculous. Um. Yeah. 0:52:22.920 --> 0:52:25.040 So one of the things that I thought about when 0:52:25.080 --> 0:52:29.000 I was watching this is like the concept of metaverse culture. Um, 0:52:29.040 --> 0:52:31.080 So like at some point, if this is a thing, 0:52:31.320 --> 0:52:33.759 there's going to be like like if there ever is 0:52:33.800 --> 0:52:36.600 a metaverse, people will develop a culture for it, just 0:52:36.640 --> 0:52:38.920 like they've developed a culture for Twitter, a culture for Reddit, 0:52:38.920 --> 0:52:41.280 a culture for Facebook, just as there were like internet 0:52:41.320 --> 0:52:45.960 culture or was fantasy. Yeah, it happens with every community 0:52:46.040 --> 0:52:49.680 you make online. Um. And and that's the thing, Like 0:52:49.840 --> 0:52:52.279 there's no I see no space in this thing that 0:52:52.320 --> 0:52:55.520 Mark Zuckerberg has envisioned as he is presenting it for 0:52:56.320 --> 0:52:59.799 organic evolution of a None of the things that here 0:52:59.840 --> 0:53:02.560 are gonna make people want to form a culture around it, 0:53:02.600 --> 0:53:05.520 because it's all it looks like, it looks like boring 0:53:05.600 --> 0:53:07.400 yuppie ship, all of it, but none of it is 0:53:07.400 --> 0:53:11.080 actually looks cool or fun, and none of it, none 0:53:11.120 --> 0:53:12.680 of it is he's not talking about any of it 0:53:12.719 --> 0:53:15.399 with like the there's no there's no openness in it, 0:53:15.560 --> 0:53:18.040 like there's no I don't see where a culture could evolve, 0:53:18.520 --> 0:53:21.040 and if one does, it's going to be directly like 0:53:21.080 --> 0:53:27.000 in opposition to Facebook moderation, um like yeah, um well yeah, 0:53:27.000 --> 0:53:28.480 and I mean and there's there's an extense to which 0:53:28.600 --> 0:53:31.719 like they can't write because like if you actually let 0:53:31.800 --> 0:53:35.480 people just like do things, like imagine the griefing that's 0:53:35.480 --> 0:53:38.000 going to happen in one of these spaces, right Like 0:53:38.239 --> 0:53:42.160 every person's avatar is going to be like sixteen thousand dogs, 0:53:42.680 --> 0:53:44.360 like this is That's literally this all it's going to be, like, 0:53:44.360 --> 0:53:45.880 this is this is this is what Twitch looks like, 0:53:46.000 --> 0:53:48.040 right Like every twitch chat is a guy posting a 0:53:48.080 --> 0:53:50.880 hydramatee of dogs. Like it's like none of none of 0:53:50.920 --> 0:53:53.160 this can actually work if you let people do literally anything. 0:53:53.200 --> 0:53:55.720 If you don't let people do anything, like why would 0:53:55.719 --> 0:53:57.480 you know I'm gonna want to do it? Yeah? Yeah, 0:53:57.520 --> 0:53:59.120 Like how how are you going to sell them this crap? 0:53:59.280 --> 0:54:02.200 Like once upon a time there was a game called 0:54:02.239 --> 0:54:04.840 Second Life. I guess it still exists, but we're talking 0:54:05.040 --> 0:54:06.960 people talked about it the way they're talking about the 0:54:06.960 --> 0:54:10.239 metaverse now, and that became just like it was never that. 0:54:10.600 --> 0:54:12.880 But there was like this beautiful moment where this I 0:54:12.880 --> 0:54:15.560 think and she Chung was her name, Um, this like 0:54:15.719 --> 0:54:19.759 culture writer, kind of expert lady was like doing a 0:54:19.840 --> 0:54:21.920 Q and A and Second Life that was like build 0:54:21.960 --> 0:54:25.480 as being this like big event for the platform that 0:54:25.560 --> 0:54:27.880 was going to like make people take it seriously. And 0:54:27.960 --> 0:54:30.640 a bunch of like users showed up and made a 0:54:30.640 --> 0:54:33.160 bunch of floating dicks like float through the room during 0:54:33.160 --> 0:54:35.160 the interview, so that like while this person was trying 0:54:35.160 --> 0:54:38.000 to talk seriously about Second Life, just like floating cocks 0:54:38.040 --> 0:54:40.920 we zooming past her head the entire time, and it 0:54:41.000 --> 0:54:43.400 was extremely funny and it's it's exactly the kind of 0:54:43.440 --> 0:54:45.400 thing like, yeah, Mark, that's what all of this is 0:54:45.400 --> 0:54:47.759 going to look like. Any mass event is going people 0:54:47.760 --> 0:54:50.120 will find a way to grief it. Um, and that 0:54:50.160 --> 0:54:52.279 will in fact be the thing they most want to do. 0:54:52.440 --> 0:54:54.880 Is that will be the actual culture. Part is fucking 0:54:54.960 --> 0:54:57.440 with Facebook. Yeah you know, but that's the part about 0:54:57.440 --> 0:54:59.480 that that sucks. It's like, yeah, you know. It was 0:54:59.520 --> 0:55:01.759 like you're universal reality thing, right, So like, okay, what 0:55:01.800 --> 0:55:04.719 are people going to do in a virtual reality? It's well, okay, 0:55:04.719 --> 0:55:06.359 you're gonna get You're gonna get a bunch of neo 0:55:06.440 --> 0:55:09.839 Nazis like figuring out a way to like show you 0:55:09.960 --> 0:55:12.000 just like the worst ship you've ever seen in your life. 0:55:12.000 --> 0:55:13.439 Like it's it's gonna it's gonna be all the stuff 0:55:13.440 --> 0:55:16.840 from the two thousands were like half of the Internet 0:55:16.960 --> 0:55:18.800 was just like a video. Why this is the thousand 0:55:18.840 --> 0:55:20.920 tends to like half of Twitter is just heading videos, 0:55:20.880 --> 0:55:25.200 And now it's in VR. It's like, yeahs in the metaverse, 0:55:25.239 --> 0:55:27.720 it's going to be amazing. Some of that's even already 0:55:27.719 --> 0:55:30.000 happening in like VR social media apps. I know of 0:55:30.040 --> 0:55:33.600 a few specific Nazis involved in January six who networked 0:55:33.680 --> 0:55:38.440 and met with people via of specifically VR chat. So like, 0:55:38.480 --> 0:55:42.439 this is this is already a thing, um And making 0:55:42.480 --> 0:55:45.160 it more broad than like this small, you know, because 0:55:45.160 --> 0:55:47.600 the VR right now is mostly just a small subsect 0:55:47.680 --> 0:55:49.840 of like gaming culture right and people are into it 0:55:50.080 --> 0:55:52.480 because there is VR games that are cool, like like 0:55:52.520 --> 0:55:59.000 Beat Saber is fun, right people game Um. In order 0:55:59.160 --> 0:56:01.160 for them to break this through into the mainstream, they 0:56:01.160 --> 0:56:02.640 need to make it appealing some way. And the only 0:56:02.640 --> 0:56:05.760 way they're making appealing right now is by doing meetings 0:56:05.800 --> 0:56:08.759 and like concerts. So the next part I Want to 0:56:08.760 --> 0:56:12.160 Play doesn't say a lot about the future marks trying 0:56:12.160 --> 0:56:14.040 to build, but it's very funny because it's him sitting 0:56:14.040 --> 0:56:16.160 down with a woman who works in his gaming department 0:56:16.520 --> 0:56:18.839 and she's walking him through like what games are going 0:56:18.880 --> 0:56:22.120 to be integrated into the metaverse? And it fucking reads 0:56:22.120 --> 0:56:24.040 like and I think you should leave sketch, Like it 0:56:24.080 --> 0:56:26.640 feels like a sketch where the joke is that everyone 0:56:26.760 --> 0:56:29.160 is awkward and not talking the way human beings talk. 0:56:29.719 --> 0:56:32.200 And in case you can't watch this chunk of the 0:56:32.280 --> 0:56:35.720 video and it starts at about like nineteen thirty four. UM. 0:56:35.760 --> 0:56:38.600 In the actual Facebook video, all of the video games 0:56:38.600 --> 0:56:40.560 they're talking about, like look Dogship, they look like the 0:56:40.640 --> 0:56:44.520 Kirkland brand of like popular like fighting games and fps 0:56:44.600 --> 0:56:47.719 s and stuff. None of them look very good. Um, 0:56:47.760 --> 0:56:50.040 so I'm gonna play a clip from this because it's 0:56:50.120 --> 0:56:54.879 very funny. Bailed out active communities be Saver has a 0:56:54.920 --> 0:57:02.800 passionate community and a million dollars and less pressed around 0:57:03.400 --> 0:57:07.799 a great example of the games releasing fresh content. They've 0:57:07.840 --> 0:57:10.239 actually been working on involving the way that you inter 0:57:10.280 --> 0:57:13.759 wrap with the tracks and feel the music, the way 0:57:13.800 --> 0:57:17.160 he's nodding in this, like his digital avatar looks more 0:57:17.160 --> 0:57:21.120 like a person. Here's some beat saber yeaheah, it looks 0:57:21.120 --> 0:57:25.720 like regular beat saber. Yeah, but it's it's VR. It's 0:57:25.720 --> 0:57:29.200 a it's already as VR. Yeah, it's already a VR game. 0:57:29.240 --> 0:57:32.000 You can't wait to play this, and you can already 0:57:32.000 --> 0:57:35.080 play with incredible artists to release new music puts all 0:57:35.080 --> 0:57:38.720 the time. You can do this a little more than 0:57:39.200 --> 0:57:43.560 question been working more of this metaverse prison take, Oh God, 0:57:43.680 --> 0:57:45.880 every scene where she's talking to him and he's just 0:57:45.920 --> 0:57:48.840 like Bobblehead nodding just a little bit, but not like 0:57:48.880 --> 0:57:53.400 it's he looks. Mark actually will benefit from the metaverse, 0:57:53.480 --> 0:57:56.640 like outside of a financial thing, because a a sculpted 0:57:56.760 --> 0:57:59.640 three D representation of him will be a thousand times better, 0:58:00.200 --> 0:58:03.200 more human than he looks like, more of a person. Yeah, 0:58:03.680 --> 0:58:05.880 it's I mean, it's just like he's scripted it badly 0:58:05.920 --> 0:58:07.520 and he's a narcissist, so he has to be the 0:58:07.520 --> 0:58:12.000 one to present it. Again a small number one, if 0:58:12.000 --> 0:58:14.439 Steve Jobs were doing this, Number one, he wouldn't because 0:58:14.440 --> 0:58:17.000 he understood what people wanted from technology. But if he 0:58:17.040 --> 0:58:20.000 were doing something like this, he would introduce like little 0:58:20.160 --> 0:58:22.080 chunks of it, and then he would have a famous 0:58:22.080 --> 0:58:25.080 person who's charismatic introduced the rest of it, like, yeah, 0:58:25.120 --> 0:58:28.040 that's the like it wouldn't be it wouldn't introduce how 0:58:28.080 --> 0:58:31.080 I'm sitting like a bobblehead listening, and he would introduce 0:58:31.200 --> 0:58:33.360 VR and a R into a way that actually integrets 0:58:33.360 --> 0:58:35.040 how people use the Internet, all right, because there is 0:58:35.080 --> 0:58:37.600 ways that there is ways of doing it. It's not 0:58:37.840 --> 0:58:42.840 this like super monetized n f T like bullshit holographic 0:58:43.440 --> 0:58:46.600 fake stuff. Yeah, and there's there's aspects of this, like 0:58:46.640 --> 0:58:48.320 he goes through after this, like there's a bunch of 0:58:48.320 --> 0:58:50.880 gaming stuff, which is impossible for the reasons we've talked about, 0:58:51.080 --> 0:58:52.840 and then there's aspects of it that seemed cool, like 0:58:52.840 --> 0:58:56.000 there's a scene where like an architect gets onto his 0:58:56.080 --> 0:58:59.920 digital office and like somebody sends him, uh, schematics too 0:59:00.000 --> 0:59:02.520 of a building they're making, and he's able to generate 0:59:02.520 --> 0:59:04.880 a three D and walk around the building like, Okay, 0:59:04.880 --> 0:59:08.520 that actually seems it seems like useful, Like you've developed 0:59:08.520 --> 0:59:11.360 a use case for the all of the architects out there. 0:59:11.720 --> 0:59:15.040 It's it's I'm still not convinced that CAD would actually 0:59:15.040 --> 0:59:18.320 be better in three D than it would be like, sure, 0:59:18.400 --> 0:59:22.880 it's I I think it may someday. I think it 0:59:23.160 --> 0:59:26.280 could be. Like if you are one of the concreasingly 0:59:26.280 --> 0:59:28.680 small number of people who can afford to like build 0:59:28.680 --> 0:59:30.120 a house of your own, I can see why it 0:59:30.120 --> 0:59:31.600 would be neat to be like, Okay, well let's do 0:59:31.640 --> 0:59:32.920 a three D render of the house and I can 0:59:32.960 --> 0:59:34.640 walk through it and I could maybe make changes at 0:59:34.640 --> 0:59:36.840 the last moment. As I'm kind of experiencing that is 0:59:37.280 --> 0:59:40.760 definitely useful where a window is like yeah, I can that. 0:59:40.760 --> 0:59:43.800 That seems like something number one Technologically you could do 0:59:43.920 --> 0:59:46.720 that more or less. Now, Um, I don't think it's 0:59:46.720 --> 0:59:48.520 it's not gonna be as instantaneous as this, but if 0:59:48.520 --> 0:59:50.360 you give it time to render it could be done, 0:59:50.480 --> 0:59:53.040 and it it's something that a number of people might 0:59:53.080 --> 0:59:56.640 find useful. But again that's a niche product because like 0:59:56.720 --> 0:59:59.600 eighteen people in our generation are rying homes. I mean 1:00:00.040 --> 1:00:02.880 also it's it's it's expensive to develop because you would 1:00:02.880 --> 1:00:06.360 have just modeling an actual real life location is a 1:00:06.400 --> 1:00:09.840 lot of work. Yum. Now there is there is a 1:00:09.880 --> 1:00:11.360 lot of a lot of technology that's getting way better 1:00:11.400 --> 1:00:14.400 at it by machine cameras um and like basically filming 1:00:14.400 --> 1:00:18.240 a space and and the community can reconstruct it pretty accurately. 1:00:18.640 --> 1:00:20.840 Um that that that is a growing field. But still 1:00:20.880 --> 1:00:23.680 it is is it's a very niche you know area 1:00:23.840 --> 1:00:26.800 at least at a yeah, so I the thing that 1:00:26.960 --> 1:00:30.160 is so anyway, there's aspects of this that are ridiculous, 1:00:30.200 --> 1:00:33.160 aspects of this that seemed neat, But the longer you 1:00:33.200 --> 1:00:35.200 watch it, the thing that comes becomes really clear is 1:00:35.200 --> 1:00:40.640 that all he's really advertising is mass surveillance. Yea. Yeah, 1:00:40.680 --> 1:00:43.040 there's a point in this video where they're showing you 1:00:43.080 --> 1:00:45.880 how they can like map a real world location so 1:00:45.920 --> 1:00:47.520 you can be in your actual house, put on your 1:00:47.600 --> 1:00:51.960 VR glasses, um and it can map the your actual 1:00:52.080 --> 1:00:54.760 home digitally in real time and as you and as 1:00:54.760 --> 1:00:57.560 you pick up real things in your house, you you 1:00:57.600 --> 1:01:00.120 see them being picked up in VR and presume the 1:01:00.120 --> 1:01:02.040 other people in the VR could see it, which we 1:01:02.080 --> 1:01:04.880 are not quite there yet. I stay pretty here in 1:01:04.960 --> 1:01:07.200 VR technology, we're getting close to this, but we're not. 1:01:07.400 --> 1:01:09.480 We're not quite there. I mean we're we're we're actually 1:01:09.480 --> 1:01:11.920 we actually are where what they show in the video. 1:01:11.960 --> 1:01:13.960 And I'm gonna play you a second from it because 1:01:13.960 --> 1:01:15.600 i want to show you something here at least, I mean, 1:01:15.640 --> 1:01:18.200 like like consumer products. We're not We're not at this 1:01:18.240 --> 1:01:23.080 point yet. Yeah, and I want to show you, uh 1:01:23.120 --> 1:01:26.120 where we are because this video they're showing like actual footage. 1:01:26.120 --> 1:01:28.280 So they have built this thing. But there's a catch, 1:01:28.360 --> 1:01:30.320 and so I'm just gonna play it right now, right 1:01:31.080 --> 1:01:34.440 out the researcher. So what's critical here is that this 1:01:34.520 --> 1:01:37.840 is all happening in real time. So if you I've 1:01:37.880 --> 1:01:39.640 just paused it, well you've got here. On one side, 1:01:39.640 --> 1:01:42.680 there's a woman in a real like house, sitting and 1:01:42.720 --> 1:01:46.040 picking up like a toy home on her couch. And 1:01:46.040 --> 1:01:48.080 then on the left you see the VR version of 1:01:48.080 --> 1:01:50.440 her house, which looks close to photo realistic and like 1:01:50.560 --> 1:01:52.280 the house that she's holding in the real world is 1:01:52.320 --> 1:01:54.360 floating in the same way that she's holding it, Like 1:01:54.400 --> 1:01:56.560 her body isn't there, like the stuff she's interacting with is. 1:01:57.160 --> 1:01:58.960 But if you look at the house she's holding. The 1:01:59.000 --> 1:02:00.560 reason that they're able to do this and it really 1:02:00.560 --> 1:02:03.320 does work is it's covered in sensors. And and actually 1:02:03.360 --> 1:02:05.560 every single thing in the real house is covered in 1:02:05.600 --> 1:02:08.200 sensors because that's the only way for this to worverything 1:02:08.200 --> 1:02:10.800 that's moving is covered in sensors. Yeah, yeah, and it 1:02:10.800 --> 1:02:13.120 it is impressive, like as a proof of concept, like this, 1:02:13.120 --> 1:02:15.680 this is here, we can do this, but like it's 1:02:15.680 --> 1:02:18.200 still light years away from practical and more to the point, 1:02:18.440 --> 1:02:20.560 when you look at this, you realize that, like, well, 1:02:20.920 --> 1:02:23.400 if this is ever going to work, the only way 1:02:23.400 --> 1:02:27.160 to make it work is for Facebook, through this service, 1:02:27.320 --> 1:02:32.280 to map your entire home in real time, every hour 1:02:32.400 --> 1:02:34.840 of all day. And they also go on to talk 1:02:34.880 --> 1:02:37.360 about like how you're gonna have just your commands and 1:02:37.400 --> 1:02:39.480 like you'll be able to like make an expression or 1:02:39.560 --> 1:02:41.880 like a hand gesture and that will do things, which 1:02:41.880 --> 1:02:44.880 means that like this service isn't just learning what's in 1:02:44.920 --> 1:02:46.800 your home and what you do with the things in 1:02:46.840 --> 1:02:49.520 your home. It's it's learning your facial expressions and your 1:02:49.600 --> 1:02:52.880 gestures and like what they mean and interpreting those at 1:02:52.920 --> 1:02:56.360 all times. I can kind of explain where oculus which 1:02:56.400 --> 1:02:59.880 is over Facebook. I think they're technically renaming oculus yea 1:03:00.520 --> 1:03:05.000 spring to just calling it the metic quest but what 1:03:05.200 --> 1:03:07.840 wait wait wait, the medical quest that that that's that's 1:03:07.880 --> 1:03:12.040 what they're calling it instead of instead of oculus UM. 1:03:12.080 --> 1:03:16.360 So where where that right now? Is basically, uh, the 1:03:16.480 --> 1:03:19.560 only kind of real world interactivity that they have for 1:03:19.840 --> 1:03:22.520 their VR headsets. Again for like the consumer models, I 1:03:22.520 --> 1:03:26.080 don't know, it's in link development. UM is hand tracking. 1:03:26.080 --> 1:03:27.320 This this is the thing they've been working on for 1:03:27.360 --> 1:03:28.920 a long time. Is that you put on the headset 1:03:29.280 --> 1:03:32.280 and the camera like the cameras and depth sensors built 1:03:32.280 --> 1:03:35.000 into the headset can see your hands and like you said, 1:03:35.040 --> 1:03:37.760 you have like gesture controls where you can do certain 1:03:37.760 --> 1:03:40.120 things in your hand and it will make certain things happen. 1:03:40.280 --> 1:03:44.280 This is the only interactivity that that we have. It's okay, 1:03:44.400 --> 1:03:46.560 it's not perfect, like it's it is. It is better 1:03:46.560 --> 1:03:48.520 than a lot of the other hand tracking systems from 1:03:48.520 --> 1:03:51.120 other companies, but like it's it's it is very much 1:03:51.120 --> 1:03:54.440 a work in progress, UM. And the way to make 1:03:54.480 --> 1:03:57.640 this work is by is very good depth sensing cameras, 1:03:57.640 --> 1:03:59.600 which I think Apple makes some of the best ones 1:03:59.720 --> 1:04:01.960 right now that they put into the iPhone. Uh. The 1:04:02.000 --> 1:04:04.760 other way of doing this is with lighthouses. So this 1:04:04.840 --> 1:04:09.880 is like separate um separate like uh, separate cameras that 1:04:09.920 --> 1:04:11.800 you set up around the corners of your house that 1:04:12.000 --> 1:04:15.600 project different like wavelengths of light and they get it 1:04:15.680 --> 1:04:18.440 received back, so they can map your house UM with 1:04:18.640 --> 1:04:21.960 not just cameras but also like like in like infrared 1:04:22.000 --> 1:04:23.880 sensors and that kind of thing. So these are these 1:04:23.880 --> 1:04:26.320 are like the two methods of doing it. Facebook is 1:04:26.360 --> 1:04:29.640 really trying to go full on, full on to the 1:04:30.080 --> 1:04:32.960 everything is built into the headset thing. So no, so no, 1:04:33.240 --> 1:04:37.040 like lighthouses. Everything is just depth depth sensing cameras. So 1:04:37.600 --> 1:04:39.360 that's why they're working on hand tracking so much because 1:04:39.360 --> 1:04:40.880 that's something you can actually do. But like, I can't 1:04:40.880 --> 1:04:44.080 pick up anything, um, Like the only thing I can 1:04:44.080 --> 1:04:46.360 pick up is my controllers, which because they they have 1:04:46.680 --> 1:04:49.040 sensors built in, they can be rendered in the actual 1:04:49.080 --> 1:04:52.000 game the same way like my hand can be, so 1:04:52.120 --> 1:04:54.120 that that that's where they're at for that for the 1:04:54.200 --> 1:04:57.600 consumer products get more than it's getting developed. Again where 1:04:57.600 --> 1:04:59.640 they're at you think about what Facebook has already done 1:04:59.680 --> 1:05:01.680 with the formation you provided, and how so much of 1:05:01.680 --> 1:05:05.400 their money comes from selling your data. Um. The only 1:05:05.440 --> 1:05:09.160 way for this to work that they've they've passed always 1:05:09.160 --> 1:05:12.960 watching everything, every moment of your existence, including like your 1:05:13.000 --> 1:05:16.920 micro expressions, which is why oulan in the tiny little 1:05:16.920 --> 1:05:21.400 box here. And here's the thing. If they were to 1:05:21.400 --> 1:05:24.560 actually develop the technology, which I don't think is impossible, 1:05:24.600 --> 1:05:28.200 although it's not particularly close. Um, it's not going to 1:05:28.280 --> 1:05:31.120 be cheap to store all that. So in order to 1:05:31.240 --> 1:05:33.600 make it a tile outside, well, it's going to be 1:05:33.640 --> 1:05:35.440 cloud based. But in order to make it like cloud 1:05:35.840 --> 1:05:41.280 isn't free um in a subscription probably I think you'll 1:05:41.280 --> 1:05:44.920 pay some, but I think in order to make it affordable, um, 1:05:45.120 --> 1:05:47.240 so that more people are on it, they're just going 1:05:47.320 --> 1:05:50.360 to sell your data in a way that has never 1:05:50.440 --> 1:05:53.000 been in a and and the government will have access 1:05:53.000 --> 1:05:56.680 to it. Like is it's actually like the thing that 1:05:56.720 --> 1:05:59.120 he is actually proposing here is I want to build 1:05:59.160 --> 1:06:01.600 a machine gun odd that knows your sins, like that 1:06:01.640 --> 1:06:06.280 knows when your hearts in your house, like before you smile. 1:06:06.400 --> 1:06:09.360 That can predict like when you're about to make a 1:06:09.440 --> 1:06:14.000 gesture or laugh because it is so accurately mapped your 1:06:14.080 --> 1:06:17.840 body and motions. Um, it's actually a nightmare. Like when 1:06:17.920 --> 1:06:20.320 you really think about what he is trying to build 1:06:20.360 --> 1:06:22.400 here and it's like, well, what, what's what what's the 1:06:22.440 --> 1:06:25.040 actual use case for this? And it's like, well, okay, 1:06:25.040 --> 1:06:26.960 so you have you have a bunch of spustal forces guys. 1:06:27.000 --> 1:06:28.960 You put them in a VR thing and then you 1:06:28.960 --> 1:06:30.520 know you can you can, you can you can have 1:06:30.560 --> 1:06:32.560 them drill on knowing exactly where all the rooms in 1:06:32.560 --> 1:06:35.120 the houses, where everyone is in, where everyone is in 1:06:35.120 --> 1:06:38.360 a house any given time. It's like, oh, hey this 1:06:38.480 --> 1:06:42.600 this is gonna be great. This is yeah, it's it's great. Yeah, 1:06:42.640 --> 1:06:45.720 it's it's really cool. Um, they have a So there 1:06:45.840 --> 1:06:48.720 is a little bit here briefly about where like Mark 1:06:48.840 --> 1:06:52.360 talks about how the last year or so has been 1:06:52.760 --> 1:06:56.439 um fucking uh. The term he uses is humbling for them. 1:06:57.080 --> 1:07:00.440 Oh god yeah, and you you kind of think that 1:07:00.560 --> 1:07:03.440 like he's about to say that, like, oh, because we 1:07:03.440 --> 1:07:08.200 we made life dramatically worse and our service was integral 1:07:08.320 --> 1:07:11.880 in several ethnic cleansings and a couple of civil wars 1:07:12.080 --> 1:07:15.640 and like hate crimes on a scale that was unimaginable 1:07:15.680 --> 1:07:18.360 before it really came into being, or that we thought 1:07:18.400 --> 1:07:20.360 had been at least we thought had been consigned to 1:07:20.400 --> 1:07:22.800 a century or so ago before Facebook came into being. 1:07:23.040 --> 1:07:25.760 But no, that's not why it's humbling. Why he says 1:07:25.760 --> 1:07:28.840 it's been humbling is that Facebook has been developing services 1:07:28.880 --> 1:07:31.120 for other platforms like the App Store, where they don't 1:07:31.160 --> 1:07:33.800 have total control, and that sucks. And that's like the 1:07:33.800 --> 1:07:36.120 thing that that's the that's him admitting a little bit 1:07:36.120 --> 1:07:37.720 that like a big part of this is they're trying 1:07:37.760 --> 1:07:40.560 to build a service the entire Internet gets filtered through 1:07:40.840 --> 1:07:43.240 that they completely control, so that they are never in 1:07:43.320 --> 1:07:47.360 anyone else's wheelhouse, Like everything is done through Facebook. And 1:07:47.400 --> 1:07:49.400 with Facebook's approval as opposed to them, they want to 1:07:49.400 --> 1:07:54.160 get face Facebook. Facebook is going to become the state. Yeah, 1:07:54.240 --> 1:07:56.919 And that's the thing that it says so much about 1:07:57.080 --> 1:07:59.640 Mark that he's like, what's humbling? Isn't all of them 1:07:59.640 --> 1:08:02.040 a stake? Because I've made It's that periodically I have 1:08:02.120 --> 1:08:06.320 not had total control. Um, it's great. Um. He then, 1:08:06.440 --> 1:08:08.760 from immediately from this says that if we all work 1:08:08.800 --> 1:08:11.160 at it, all of us. The metaverse can reach a 1:08:11.200 --> 1:08:16.560 billion people by the next decade um, which is very funny. 1:08:16.760 --> 1:08:20.599 Um that he thinks that that's like an enticing fucking thing. 1:08:21.240 --> 1:08:25.160 So one of the use cases they try to present 1:08:25.240 --> 1:08:27.360 is they have a beauty influencer who like made like 1:08:27.680 --> 1:08:31.000 a fucking candle line or something, uh, that she's sold 1:08:31.000 --> 1:08:33.439 on Instagram and she's she's very successful in Instagram. They 1:08:33.439 --> 1:08:35.519 bring this lady in and number one as soon as 1:08:35.520 --> 1:08:38.120 they started interviewing her, it's it's it's what I was 1:08:38.160 --> 1:08:40.599 saying about. You have a higher a celebrity to do this, Mark, 1:08:40.600 --> 1:08:43.600 You're not charismatic. She's immediately the most engaging person in 1:08:43.640 --> 1:08:46.599 the entire presentation because she's a successful Like she's someone 1:08:46.600 --> 1:08:49.439 who understands how she appears on camera, Um, how to 1:08:49.520 --> 1:08:52.599 make herself seem likable on camera, how to like interact 1:08:52.640 --> 1:08:54.840 with the world on a camera, and nobody else in 1:08:54.840 --> 1:08:58.160 this video understands that, Um, which is just funny. It's 1:08:58.160 --> 1:09:00.479 not particularly like say anything other and that, like, you 1:09:00.680 --> 1:09:04.559 have professionals do difficult things, Mark, don't don't hire your 1:09:04.600 --> 1:09:07.760 weird gawky engineering staff to like be the faces of 1:09:07.760 --> 1:09:10.439 this thing. They're not good at this, and neither are you. 1:09:11.280 --> 1:09:12.720 I just want to point out, so he said that 1:09:12.800 --> 1:09:15.559 like he can get one billion people the next decade. 1:09:15.920 --> 1:09:19.880 So far there's only been sixteen million vir headsets sold ever. Yeah, 1:09:20.439 --> 1:09:23.200 so getting that to the point of a billion, it 1:09:23.280 --> 1:09:26.920 seems like quite quite the challenge. I mean, it is 1:09:26.960 --> 1:09:29.559 a challenge, but you could look at like how quickly 1:09:29.600 --> 1:09:33.200 smartphones went from Yeah, except smartphones were useful in improving 1:09:33.200 --> 1:09:36.040 the world in very obvious ways, whereas the metaverse and 1:09:36.080 --> 1:09:38.240 even VR in general doesn't improve the world from us 1:09:38.280 --> 1:09:40.559 people in obvious ways. Yeah, but that that's kind of 1:09:40.560 --> 1:09:42.800 what I'm saying, is that, like, the thing that is 1:09:43.040 --> 1:09:45.479 stupid and doomed about this isn't like, oh, you would 1:09:45.479 --> 1:09:47.880 have to sell so many headsets. If it was legitimately 1:09:47.960 --> 1:09:51.120 something every single person wanted on their head, they would 1:09:51.160 --> 1:09:52.760 sell a billion. They would sell a billion in a 1:09:52.760 --> 1:09:55.880 couple of years, you know. Um, but they haven't made 1:09:55.920 --> 1:09:59.080 that look like like so this, this beauty influencer thing 1:09:59.200 --> 1:10:01.960 is an example of the trying to like explain here's 1:10:02.000 --> 1:10:05.120 something that people will find cool about the metaverse, um, 1:10:05.160 --> 1:10:06.639 and the way they do it is like talking about 1:10:06.640 --> 1:10:09.040 how you can have a digital storefront where like people 1:10:09.080 --> 1:10:12.040 can't just buy products, but they can interact with you. Um. 1:10:12.120 --> 1:10:13.719 She talks about how it will be good for letting 1:10:13.760 --> 1:10:15.800 her interact with their fans, but like bringing them into 1:10:15.840 --> 1:10:20.799 my home, which sounds like a fucking we love our fans, 1:10:20.840 --> 1:10:23.919 but like, no, I do not want anyone from anybody 1:10:24.240 --> 1:10:28.439 goddamn home. I barely want my friends in my home 1:10:28.520 --> 1:10:32.719 half the time. Like absolutely not. Um, they didn't present 1:10:32.800 --> 1:10:34.720 us with a use case of how a brand, in 1:10:34.720 --> 1:10:37.120 this case, this candle company this lady made that's big 1:10:37.160 --> 1:10:39.479 on Instagram could release like a new candle flavor and 1:10:39.560 --> 1:10:41.960 launch a digital experience with it so you can buy 1:10:41.960 --> 1:10:44.800 both real and digital products. It's kind of unclear in 1:10:44.800 --> 1:10:46.960 the video whether or not you're paying for the digital 1:10:47.000 --> 1:10:51.000 experience or is it like free when you buy the candle. Um. Yeah, 1:10:51.040 --> 1:10:53.439 it's like I don't games is like developing. It's like 1:10:53.520 --> 1:10:56.120 you know, dropping products at the same time in the 1:10:56.200 --> 1:10:58.400 real world in the digital world, but like the digital 1:10:58.479 --> 1:11:00.240 version is free because it's like because it's like an 1:11:00.280 --> 1:11:03.080 add right, you could try something out virtually before you 1:11:03.160 --> 1:11:05.920 buy it physically, and that's what like Epic Games is doing. 1:11:06.320 --> 1:11:08.840 And honestly, I think epics version of the Metavors is 1:11:08.880 --> 1:11:13.080 slightly more hinged. They understand more what people actually want. Yeah, 1:11:13.120 --> 1:11:15.120 because like all the stuff they're trying with Fortnite again, 1:11:15.280 --> 1:11:17.479 it doesn't seem fun for me. But at least it's 1:11:17.479 --> 1:11:20.080 like an extension of how people use the Internet already, 1:11:20.160 --> 1:11:24.800 whereas Facebook's is not that. Yeah. And and Mark never 1:11:24.880 --> 1:11:29.519 really understood what people wanted. He he accidentally did basically 1:11:29.760 --> 1:11:32.120 to make something else, Like he wanted a place to 1:11:32.160 --> 1:11:35.240 share pictures of ladies he thought was hot. Um, and 1:11:35.280 --> 1:11:37.599 he accidentally built a thing that like gave people something 1:11:37.640 --> 1:11:39.040 they did one, which was a way to stay in 1:11:39.080 --> 1:11:41.320 contact with their friends from high school in college as 1:11:41.360 --> 1:11:43.559 they grew older. Right, Like that was the thing about 1:11:43.560 --> 1:11:46.519 Facebook that made it get huge originally. Um. And he 1:11:46.560 --> 1:11:49.479 hasn't learned anything since. He's just been smart. He's he's 1:11:49.520 --> 1:11:51.240 hired people who are smart enough to be like, hey, 1:11:51.280 --> 1:11:53.160 Instagram is probably going to be a big deal by that, 1:11:54.000 --> 1:11:56.880 you know, um like that that, but I haven't seen 1:11:57.200 --> 1:12:01.040 anything that's made me think like Mark gets what people want. 1:12:01.160 --> 1:12:02.600 And this has just made it clear that like he 1:12:02.640 --> 1:12:04.840 absolutely doesn't. So I want to play this video of 1:12:04.880 --> 1:12:07.519 like this is the digital experience to go with this 1:12:07.600 --> 1:12:10.559 fucking candle that they're they're framing is like a piece 1:12:10.560 --> 1:12:13.639 of art that everybody's gonna want to interact with candles. 1:12:14.800 --> 1:12:17.799 It's it's incredible because it again feels like a nightmare. 1:12:17.920 --> 1:12:20.559 I am. I am a big candle fan, so same here. 1:12:21.560 --> 1:12:24.679 What if I effect to transports us something to magic 1:12:30.640 --> 1:12:33.840 It's like a shitty arboretum. I don't do what it 1:12:33.880 --> 1:12:36.760 has to do with candles. It's Jackie. As we walk 1:12:36.840 --> 1:12:41.360 in this amazing world, I just feel like this is 1:12:41.400 --> 1:12:45.320 like endless possibilities of my imaginations. I can't even begin 1:12:45.400 --> 1:12:48.280 to imagine. But I don't understand what has that to 1:12:48.280 --> 1:12:52.400 do with candles. Yeah, like they have again like there's 1:12:52.520 --> 1:12:55.719 I can walk around, like why can't begin to imagine 1:12:55.720 --> 1:12:57.439 all the things people are going to I can walk 1:12:57.479 --> 1:13:00.280 around digital spaces and like quest it's again it's fun 1:13:00.360 --> 1:13:02.640 for like thirty seconds, and then you see everything You're like, well, 1:13:02.680 --> 1:13:04.519 I can't touch it or smell it or actually feel 1:13:04.520 --> 1:13:06.479 it or do anything. So I'm gonna go back and 1:13:06.520 --> 1:13:09.640 have a soda and yeah play and like read a 1:13:09.640 --> 1:13:13.120 book or something like. And they've brought in this influencer 1:13:13.120 --> 1:13:15.559 who like used one of their other services in a 1:13:15.560 --> 1:13:18.200 way they hadn't initially intended and was successful in that, 1:13:18.240 --> 1:13:20.240 which is not a bad idea in its surface, Like yeah, 1:13:20.520 --> 1:13:23.960 bring in creative people and let them play around and 1:13:24.000 --> 1:13:27.000 make something new to show people how exciting this is, right, 1:13:27.320 --> 1:13:29.639 that's the smart thing to do. But all they've presented 1:13:29.720 --> 1:13:32.479 is like, look, it's a tiny little weird arboretum. You 1:13:32.520 --> 1:13:35.559 can walk around and after buying a candle, and it's like, well, 1:13:35.800 --> 1:13:38.559 I like candles, but that's not fun. That doesn't sound 1:13:38.640 --> 1:13:41.720 like a fun. Addition, part of the metaverse is like 1:13:41.800 --> 1:13:45.519 making like interactivity more like be able to interact with 1:13:45.960 --> 1:13:48.519 with digital things, and like that's not interacting, that's just 1:13:48.560 --> 1:13:51.639 walking around like unless I can like take of like 1:13:51.760 --> 1:13:55.360 a bazooka and blow up our like the candle, you know, 1:13:56.160 --> 1:13:59.559 like that's like you have to do something. Like all 1:13:59.600 --> 1:14:01.439 of the V are games that are fun, like like 1:14:01.439 --> 1:14:04.080 like like like a super hot or like something. It's about, 1:14:04.080 --> 1:14:06.519 you know, picking up objects in VR and throwing them 1:14:06.560 --> 1:14:10.280 at people. That's fun and you likes, unless I can 1:14:10.360 --> 1:14:12.000 pick up this candle and it's all people with it 1:14:12.040 --> 1:14:14.080 in the game, I don't see what really the dry 1:14:14.200 --> 1:14:18.599 like what's what's exciting about this? You were saying something, Chris, Oh, 1:14:18.840 --> 1:14:21.120 I guess you know. The thing I keep coming back 1:14:21.160 --> 1:14:22.840 to with this is it the only way this and this, 1:14:23.080 --> 1:14:24.960 literally any of this makes any sense if it's just 1:14:25.000 --> 1:14:28.360 like a chip in your brain, just because all of it, 1:14:28.400 --> 1:14:29.680 all of it is built around that. But it's but 1:14:29.680 --> 1:14:31.479 it's not like it can't be like we don't the 1:14:31.520 --> 1:14:33.439 technology for that won't exist for like ages and so 1:14:33.479 --> 1:14:36.080 there it's like it's it's like they're they're selling some 1:14:36.200 --> 1:14:39.040 of it definitely is headset based, like that arboretum thing. 1:14:39.120 --> 1:14:43.439 But even yeah, but like I mean I think even that, right, 1:14:43.479 --> 1:14:46.200 like okay, so why would you want Like yeah, you're 1:14:46.200 --> 1:14:48.000 if you're saying, like why would you It's like, Okay, 1:14:48.040 --> 1:14:51.360 it's interesting for like ten minutes, right, Yeah. The only 1:14:51.400 --> 1:14:53.160 way that would be like the only way that would 1:14:53.200 --> 1:14:55.160 be an actually interesting experience is if you could get 1:14:55.200 --> 1:14:57.920 all the full century experience you can smell and feel, yeah, right, 1:14:57.960 --> 1:14:59.479 and that that's that's that's like, that's that's the thing 1:14:59.479 --> 1:15:01.120 where like think only makes sense if it's like a 1:15:01.120 --> 1:15:02.800 brain ship. Well, I mean there's there's two versions. There's 1:15:02.800 --> 1:15:04.360 one it's a brain ship or two it's a video game, 1:15:04.840 --> 1:15:06.519 and Epic Games is doing the thing where it's a 1:15:06.600 --> 1:15:10.160 video game, and and that's slightly yes, yeah, yeah, but 1:15:10.200 --> 1:15:13.040 like they don't you know, but they're they're trying to 1:15:13.120 --> 1:15:15.720 sell like and I think part of what's going on 1:15:15.720 --> 1:15:18.360 here is also just like this is this is designed 1:15:18.520 --> 1:15:22.280 to like like, this is designed to like trick Silicon 1:15:22.400 --> 1:15:27.080 Valley investors. Yes, that is like yeah, and those people 1:15:27.240 --> 1:15:29.000 I think are just gonna be like, oh, well, we'll 1:15:29.000 --> 1:15:30.960 have brain ships eventually, and so we'll just we'll talk 1:15:30.960 --> 1:15:33.120 about probably talk about that part more at the end, 1:15:33.120 --> 1:15:35.519 because yeah, this is just a scam. This is just 1:15:35.560 --> 1:15:38.200 a scam, and it is like again to talk about 1:15:38.200 --> 1:15:40.479 like the dystopian aspects of this, Chris, as you brought up, 1:15:40.560 --> 1:15:43.519 one of the aspects is that like it's a complete 1:15:43.520 --> 1:15:46.240 panopticon of perfect surveillance. If they actually make this thing 1:15:46.280 --> 1:15:48.439 a number two is the only way to do most 1:15:48.479 --> 1:15:51.200 of what they're talking about that's cool is to give 1:15:51.280 --> 1:15:55.000 Mark Zuckerberg physical control over human beings brain chemistry on 1:15:55.000 --> 1:15:57.320 a global scale, which I think it is a bad 1:15:57.360 --> 1:16:01.840 idea for that. I don't I don't want to walk 1:16:01.880 --> 1:16:06.000 around in a weird candle room that badly, Like to 1:16:06.160 --> 1:16:08.280 your point, Chris about like how it's you know, there's 1:16:08.320 --> 1:16:11.719 no sensory stuff. Is like like the most popular VR games, 1:16:12.040 --> 1:16:13.800 the reason why they work so well, there's why that 1:16:13.800 --> 1:16:15.840 they don't, like Break the Uncanny Valley is because you're 1:16:15.880 --> 1:16:18.000 in like a barren land, like you know, like the Saber. 1:16:18.200 --> 1:16:20.120 You're not in a place you know you're in the 1:16:20.200 --> 1:16:23.120 in the game interface for like for Super Hot, you're 1:16:23.160 --> 1:16:27.800 in like whitewashed, abstract like concrete spaces, right, so like 1:16:27.960 --> 1:16:30.000 there's nothing, there is nothing to smell or feels like 1:16:30.040 --> 1:16:32.160 you don't feel like you're missing anything because you're in 1:16:32.160 --> 1:16:35.080 a very like stripped down version of reality. There is 1:16:35.320 --> 1:16:37.559 a really good of VR game, I forget what it's called, 1:16:37.560 --> 1:16:39.360 but it's it's based on like an office and you're 1:16:39.400 --> 1:16:41.679 like fighting robots to break out of like this capitalist 1:16:41.760 --> 1:16:44.719 office room. And it's cool because like, yeah, it's miserable 1:16:44.720 --> 1:16:46.439 because it's like it's like an office space. You feel 1:16:46.479 --> 1:16:49.240 like you're in an office because it's nothing about it's exciting. Right, 1:16:49.600 --> 1:16:52.760 video games that are in like lush worlds feel so 1:16:52.800 --> 1:16:55.479 much more like disconnected because you have like a weird 1:16:55.520 --> 1:16:56.479 like you have you have like you have like an 1:16:56.560 --> 1:16:58.880 uncanny valley thing, but instead of like a face or 1:16:58.920 --> 1:17:02.120 a person, it's like environment. We're running a long time. 1:17:02.160 --> 1:17:03.439 I want to move to something that I think is 1:17:03.479 --> 1:17:06.120 important here, which is there is one moment in this 1:17:06.200 --> 1:17:08.880 video where they try to address the fact that they've 1:17:08.920 --> 1:17:11.080 done a tremendous amount of damage to the world and 1:17:11.120 --> 1:17:15.960 they have repeatedly failed to like uh anticipate dangers that 1:17:15.960 --> 1:17:17.840 their services have, so they need to like deal with 1:17:17.840 --> 1:17:19.280 that at some point. And this is like, well, what 1:17:19.320 --> 1:17:21.439 about if like what about bad things that could happen? 1:17:21.479 --> 1:17:23.720 What if like what about like unintended things? What about 1:17:23.760 --> 1:17:25.559 like ways in which this could be harmful to society 1:17:25.600 --> 1:17:29.320 that you haven't foreseen. So, because they're not completely stupid, 1:17:29.320 --> 1:17:32.000 in order to address that, they bring on a well 1:17:32.120 --> 1:17:34.280 dressed uh or not well dressed, but they bring on 1:17:34.360 --> 1:17:37.400 like a friendly British man um who kind of kind 1:17:37.400 --> 1:17:40.320 of reads as like a like a scientific kind of 1:17:40.360 --> 1:17:43.080 expert guy. They bring on a charming British person to 1:17:43.120 --> 1:17:45.880 like talk about how they're going to not not destroy 1:17:45.960 --> 1:17:49.360 the world. And this is very telling so far. It's 1:17:49.400 --> 1:17:52.479 it's such visionary stuff. But as you mentioned early on 1:17:52.680 --> 1:17:56.320 with all big technological advances that are inevitably going to 1:17:56.400 --> 1:17:59.720 be in all sorts of challenges and uncertainties. And I 1:17:59.760 --> 1:18:02.400 know you talked about this a bit already, but people 1:18:02.439 --> 1:18:04.280 want to know how we're going to do all this 1:18:04.479 --> 1:18:07.360 in a responsible way, and especially that we play our 1:18:07.400 --> 1:18:10.160 part in helping to keep people safe and protect their 1:18:10.160 --> 1:18:14.240 privacy online. Yeah, that's right, This is incredibly important. The 1:18:14.280 --> 1:18:16.520 way I look at it is that in the past, 1:18:16.560 --> 1:18:20.839 the speed that new technologies emerged sometimes left policy makers 1:18:20.840 --> 1:18:24.040 and regulators playing catch up. So on the one hand, 1:18:24.320 --> 1:18:27.080 companies get accused of charging your head too quickly, and 1:18:27.160 --> 1:18:30.240 on the other, tech people feel that progress can't afford 1:18:30.280 --> 1:18:33.680 to wait for the slower pace of regulation. And I 1:18:33.760 --> 1:18:36.000 really think that it doesn't have to be the case 1:18:36.080 --> 1:18:39.240 this time around, because we have years until the metaverse 1:18:39.280 --> 1:18:42.559 we envision is fully realized. So this is the start 1:18:42.600 --> 1:18:47.439 of the journey, not the end. So that's telling UH 1:18:47.680 --> 1:18:50.559 that he's like, we don't need to worry about like 1:18:50.640 --> 1:18:55.719 we don't need it, Like it'll be regulated properly, it'll 1:18:55.760 --> 1:18:57.559 be safe enough, because it's going to take so long 1:18:57.600 --> 1:19:00.600 to figure all this out that surely we will anticipate 1:19:00.680 --> 1:19:03.160 and deal with all of the potentially toxic side effects 1:19:03.160 --> 1:19:06.000 of this technology ahead of time. Um. And if you 1:19:06.040 --> 1:19:08.200 believe that, I would say, take a look at Facebook's 1:19:08.200 --> 1:19:12.040 track record with that kind of thing. Um. But they 1:19:12.080 --> 1:19:14.200 are smart and having a charming British man do it, 1:19:14.240 --> 1:19:17.320 that's the right guy to have in the only aspect 1:19:17.360 --> 1:19:19.200 of good casting in this that is the right guy 1:19:19.240 --> 1:19:21.559 to have come on and try to allay people's fears 1:19:22.400 --> 1:19:24.960 that this will destroy society. You bring you bring a 1:19:25.000 --> 1:19:26.960 charming British man in, you know, that's how you do 1:19:27.040 --> 1:19:30.599 that kind of thing. Um, that's when I get canceled 1:19:30.640 --> 1:19:33.280 for the things I've been doing overseas. Um, I'm going 1:19:33.320 --> 1:19:35.920 to hire a British person to defend myself. Do they 1:19:35.920 --> 1:19:38.600 make any more comments about like a R glasses or 1:19:38.720 --> 1:19:42.200 VR quite a few. I wanted to move on to that. Um, 1:19:42.320 --> 1:19:46.040 even though yeah, we're so um they talk about they 1:19:46.040 --> 1:19:48.760 have a whole section where they're they're talking about the 1:19:48.840 --> 1:19:51.519 actual glasses they have. So they announced the number one 1:19:51.920 --> 1:19:54.960 they have a project. The goal, as he repeatedly says, 1:19:55.040 --> 1:19:57.680 is to make a quote normal, good looking pair of 1:19:57.760 --> 1:20:01.760 glasses that do all this stuff, which that is yeah. Um, 1:20:01.800 --> 1:20:03.479 and he he does in order as like a proof 1:20:03.479 --> 1:20:05.759 of concept, he shows us these a R ray bands 1:20:05.800 --> 1:20:08.640 that actually look legitimately rad They look like normal at 1:20:08.680 --> 1:20:11.599 least the privn't touched a pair of these in my hands, 1:20:11.600 --> 1:20:14.280 but the the the videos that are supposed to be 1:20:14.320 --> 1:20:16.200 these real products show a pair of what looked like 1:20:16.240 --> 1:20:18.640 normal ray bands that you can take pictures and videos with, 1:20:18.920 --> 1:20:20.600 you can answer phone calls on, you can do like 1:20:20.680 --> 1:20:23.080 video phone calls on them, and actually that they seem 1:20:23.160 --> 1:20:26.840 neat and like they look like normal glasses. Um, and 1:20:27.200 --> 1:20:30.840 that is pretty cool. Um. They go kind of pivot 1:20:30.920 --> 1:20:33.160 from that to announcing that like they have this new thing, 1:20:33.200 --> 1:20:37.000 Project nizar Um, which oh I looked up what nazarre 1:20:37.040 --> 1:20:40.400 means a little bit ago. It's probably dystopian. Uh No, 1:20:40.560 --> 1:20:44.320 I think it was just yeah, uh, it's a town 1:20:44.400 --> 1:20:45.960 or it's a surf spot, right, it's a place and 1:20:46.040 --> 1:20:48.679 I think Portugal where there's like great waves and Mark 1:20:48.720 --> 1:20:50.760 Zuckerberg is really into surfing. He plays a surfing game 1:20:50.760 --> 1:20:52.439 at one point in this That is one of the 1:20:52.479 --> 1:20:55.600 most um embarrassing things, embarrassing thing as I've seen in 1:20:55.640 --> 1:20:59.920 my entire fucking life. Um. But yeah, so project is 1:21:00.040 --> 1:21:01.639 are is that they're supposed to be like the first 1:21:01.680 --> 1:21:04.920 true like VR glasses. So they do the good thing, 1:21:04.920 --> 1:21:07.120 which is like here's the real technology these ray bands, 1:21:07.120 --> 1:21:09.920 and look, these are pretty neat. Obviously that doesn't come 1:21:09.960 --> 1:21:13.360 close to what they're promising. Um, and this whole thing 1:21:13.360 --> 1:21:16.280 where they talk about what the glasses, which they say 1:21:16.280 --> 1:21:18.519 they're making good progress on, are going to do, we 1:21:18.560 --> 1:21:23.559 don't ever see any fucking glasses. Yeah, yeah, And and 1:21:23.600 --> 1:21:27.960 that's because they're not really close uh to to working yet. 1:21:29.160 --> 1:21:32.639 That's the air glasses are gonna be the way to act. 1:21:32.760 --> 1:21:36.880 Like if the goal is to integrate digital spaces into 1:21:36.920 --> 1:21:38.680 the physical space, I think I think it's a good 1:21:38.680 --> 1:21:40.640 goal because what that's gonna do, that's gonna make the 1:21:40.640 --> 1:21:43.479 digital space less fake, right, it's injecting that into the 1:21:43.520 --> 1:21:45.800 actual real world. So I think that will actually really 1:21:45.840 --> 1:21:48.479 help with like disassociate of stuff is because it's actually 1:21:48.520 --> 1:21:50.240 in it's actually in the real world as well. I 1:21:50.240 --> 1:21:52.920 think that's gonna be wonderful when that gets developed. And 1:21:52.960 --> 1:21:55.479 I think the glasses are are definitely going to be 1:21:55.479 --> 1:21:57.639 a thing within the next ten to twenty years. There 1:21:57.640 --> 1:22:00.800 ways of like figure illuminating last on the side to 1:22:00.840 --> 1:22:03.280 make like like what it looks like an image. This 1:22:03.360 --> 1:22:05.360 is definitely gonna be a thing that's going to be possible. 1:22:07.520 --> 1:22:10.519 Like surveillance of privacy is like the big, big fears 1:22:10.560 --> 1:22:13.679 for that because we're nowhere close to hacking the brain 1:22:13.800 --> 1:22:16.720 enough to feel sensations. And like, the only thing I've 1:22:16.760 --> 1:22:18.880 played a lot of VR, the only thing that you 1:22:18.920 --> 1:22:22.160 can feel in VR is fear. That's the only thing 1:22:22.160 --> 1:22:25.280 that VR is capable of replicating as as a feeling. 1:22:25.360 --> 1:22:28.559 It's like, you can feel terrified in VR. That's that's 1:22:28.600 --> 1:22:30.880 that's it. You can't ever feel like there's one thing 1:22:30.880 --> 1:22:35.600 you can feel exhausted game. And I was doing like 1:22:35.680 --> 1:22:37.880 bow draws for like four hours, and I was like, 1:22:38.080 --> 1:22:40.920 we've we've developed the way to make you frightened and tired. 1:22:41.200 --> 1:22:43.760 That is what r's best will. By the way, what 1:22:43.800 --> 1:22:47.559 Twitter does normally all true, all of like all of 1:22:47.600 --> 1:22:50.040 like the resident Evil VR games. Yeah, they're gonna making 1:22:50.080 --> 1:22:53.240 you tired and terrified, and that's kind of it. So 1:22:53.280 --> 1:22:54.960 we we have to close out. But I want to 1:22:55.000 --> 1:22:58.519 do that by playing Mark Zuckerberg lamenting the Internet that 1:22:58.560 --> 1:23:00.880 he played a major role in building, as a way 1:23:00.880 --> 1:23:02.880 to talk about why we need a metaverse because it's 1:23:03.320 --> 1:23:05.760 kind of funny because we're allowed to build and use, 1:23:05.800 --> 1:23:09.519 are more tightly controlled than ever, and high taxes on 1:23:09.640 --> 1:23:14.280 creative new ideas are stifling. This is not the way 1:23:14.400 --> 1:23:18.400 that we were met to use technology. The metaverse gives 1:23:18.520 --> 1:23:23.200 us an opportunity to choose well, but it's going to 1:23:23.280 --> 1:23:28.559 take all of us creators, developers, companies of all sizes together. 1:23:28.960 --> 1:23:31.800 We can finally put people at the center of our 1:23:31.840 --> 1:23:35.280 technology and deliver an experience where we are present with 1:23:35.320 --> 1:23:41.280 each other. Yeah, what what a Google? Like? All of 1:23:41.320 --> 1:23:43.600 that nonsense every when you're not you're one of the 1:23:43.600 --> 1:23:46.320 people who has turned the Internet into an expensive walled garden. 1:23:46.360 --> 1:23:49.040 It didn't used to be this way. Then Facebook swooped 1:23:49.080 --> 1:23:53.559 in made themselves for free um like integral to all content, 1:23:53.640 --> 1:23:56.200 and then started charging those content creators and like sucking 1:23:56.240 --> 1:23:57.880 them around and lying to them, which led to the 1:23:57.880 --> 1:23:59.960 destruction of a huge number of websites and a triman. 1:24:00.000 --> 1:24:02.960 This amount of digital culture, like your Wyatt, feels like 1:24:03.040 --> 1:24:05.680 a dead waled garden, and everything you've presented in this 1:24:05.760 --> 1:24:08.360 video makes the metaverse feel like a dead waled garden. 1:24:08.640 --> 1:24:11.640 But I want to play his last lines in the 1:24:12.000 --> 1:24:14.439 in this video because this is him kind of summing 1:24:14.520 --> 1:24:17.880 up his vision for the future via the metaverse, and 1:24:17.920 --> 1:24:20.519 now it is time to take everything that we've learned 1:24:20.760 --> 1:24:24.599 and help build the next chapter. I am dedicating our 1:24:24.760 --> 1:24:27.200 energy to this more than any other company in the world, 1:24:27.520 --> 1:24:29.639 And if this is the future that you want to see, 1:24:29.920 --> 1:24:32.639 then I hope that you will join us, because the 1:24:32.640 --> 1:24:36.600 future is going to be beyond anything we can imagine. 1:24:36.880 --> 1:24:39.080 I agree with that part mark. The future is going 1:24:39.120 --> 1:24:41.599 to be beyond what you can imagine. What a gool, Yeah, 1:24:41.640 --> 1:24:44.719 because you have no imagination. It's just it's just using 1:24:45.080 --> 1:24:48.599 trendy tech terms to trick investors into giving them billions 1:24:48.640 --> 1:24:51.240 of dollars. That's like the right, That's that's all it is. 1:24:51.280 --> 1:24:55.440 Because all of this, like this like haptic feedback replicating 1:24:55.439 --> 1:24:58.200 like human feelings and stuff, that we're nowhere close to that, 1:24:58.240 --> 1:25:00.120 and when we do, it's going to be dystopian. But 1:25:00.120 --> 1:25:02.760 we're not close to it, and it's going to be dystopian, 1:25:02.880 --> 1:25:06.439 or it's going to be better in ways that like 1:25:06.640 --> 1:25:10.360 we can't yet conceive of um and then eventually it 1:25:10.400 --> 1:25:13.240 will be destroyed for profit if it actually gets cool 1:25:13.280 --> 1:25:17.160 like the old Internet was. Yeah, it's yeah, it's it's yeah, 1:25:17.200 --> 1:25:19.519 but I think but both this and even a lot 1:25:19.680 --> 1:25:22.840 like a lot of the epic stuff just seems ah, 1:25:23.280 --> 1:25:27.240 it's just the new way that tech companies, that's where 1:25:27.280 --> 1:25:30.240 they think the money vault is is by using these terms, 1:25:30.520 --> 1:25:32.160 and they think using these terms is going to get 1:25:32.160 --> 1:25:35.679 them lots of extra investor money because the actual technology 1:25:35.720 --> 1:25:37.280 is nowhere really close to this and it's not what 1:25:37.360 --> 1:25:40.320 people wanted out of the Internet anyway, it absolutely is not. 1:25:40.600 --> 1:25:43.920 But I don't know, I think this was important. I think, yeah, 1:25:44.160 --> 1:25:48.479 Facebook is important and has a major impact on the 1:25:48.520 --> 1:25:51.600 way the Internet is continuing to evolve um usually in 1:25:51.680 --> 1:25:54.240 negative ways. But this is how these people who are 1:25:54.600 --> 1:25:57.200 doing a lot of damage view the future. So you 1:25:57.240 --> 1:25:59.560 should know what they're looking at and what they anticipate. 1:25:59.760 --> 1:26:01.360 But I think I think that there's a kind of 1:26:01.360 --> 1:26:04.519 optimistic note to this though, right was just like Okay, 1:26:04.640 --> 1:26:07.439 so we've we've reached the point where like even like 1:26:07.960 --> 1:26:12.320 Boris Johnson is going like, oh god, climate change is coming, right, 1:26:13.040 --> 1:26:18.080 and this is the best they've got, right, they have 1:26:18.600 --> 1:26:22.240 they have nothing, They have nothing, And you know what, 1:26:22.400 --> 1:26:25.840 I think, like, what are the only ways we can win? 1:26:25.920 --> 1:26:29.320 Is if we're facing a uniquely incompetent ruling class. And 1:26:29.400 --> 1:26:31.120 if it if the rule, if the if the guy were, 1:26:31.160 --> 1:26:32.719 if a guy we have to deal with in order 1:26:32.760 --> 1:26:36.599 to like not drown every single whale and like have 1:26:36.760 --> 1:26:38.639 half of the world's city is consumed, but the ocean 1:26:38.920 --> 1:26:45.719 is Mark Zuckerberg, like, we got a shot some smarter 1:26:45.840 --> 1:26:51.800 people that aren't that obviously behind the scenes, right like yeah, yeah, um, 1:26:52.000 --> 1:26:54.280 but I I don't think I think that's a nice 1:26:54.280 --> 1:26:56.679 note to end on, because it is, it is worth 1:26:57.200 --> 1:26:59.639 The nice thing about this is how clearly they don't 1:26:59.720 --> 1:27:03.360 under stand what the future is going to look like online. Um, 1:27:03.400 --> 1:27:05.559 they have ways in which they're trying to direct the future, 1:27:05.640 --> 1:27:08.639 and aspects of that will come true, like their VR 1:27:09.200 --> 1:27:11.760 will succeed in some form at some point and it 1:27:11.800 --> 1:27:17.560 will be potentially an unprecedented surveillance breakthrough has some unsettling implications, 1:27:17.880 --> 1:27:20.600 and bet of our stuff is getting developed a lot 1:27:20.640 --> 1:27:22.840 of other stuff. I think the move by Twitter to 1:27:22.840 --> 1:27:25.839 create like this, like it's called like like Twitter spaces 1:27:26.240 --> 1:27:28.679 where it's like this, like you know, basically like voice 1:27:28.720 --> 1:27:30.400 chat room. Like a lot of people are moving towards 1:27:30.439 --> 1:27:33.040 this concept where we try to like inject more like 1:27:33.240 --> 1:27:36.720 in person interactivity into this virtual framework, right, which how 1:27:36.760 --> 1:27:39.400 this with like with like a clubhouse last year during 1:27:39.520 --> 1:27:42.000 during the pandemic, where people like watching like Netflix in 1:27:42.000 --> 1:27:44.639 the quote same room, right, Like, we're seeing people try 1:27:44.680 --> 1:27:47.519 to do this with varying mix mixed success. But this 1:27:47.600 --> 1:27:49.960 is the way tech is is inching. So it is 1:27:49.960 --> 1:27:51.559 a good idea to keep your eye on it because, yeah, 1:27:51.560 --> 1:27:54.400 it's a lot of implications for like clevacy and advertising 1:27:54.479 --> 1:27:56.479 and all that kind of stuff. Will continue to cover 1:27:56.640 --> 1:27:58.960 aspects of this. Talk about the technology, talk about the 1:27:58.960 --> 1:28:02.240 surveillance implications, talk about the visions these people have. But 1:28:02.640 --> 1:28:04.880 I think that this has been these episodes have been useful, 1:28:04.920 --> 1:28:06.680 and like here's what Mark thinks is coming. Here's what 1:28:06.760 --> 1:28:10.200 Facebook is pouring like ten billion dollars into it's dumbest shit, 1:28:10.560 --> 1:28:29.479 have a nice day podcast. All right, Well I've done 1:28:29.520 --> 1:28:35.000 my job for the day. Wow, you've even by our standards. 1:28:35.080 --> 1:28:41.040 That's a that's an intro, that's actually thank you. This 1:28:41.240 --> 1:28:43.400 is of course it could happen here a show about 1:28:43.439 --> 1:28:46.639 how things aren't going so great, kind of falling apart, 1:28:46.800 --> 1:28:50.040 crumbling a bit, but also maybe things could be better. 1:28:50.320 --> 1:28:52.799 That would be nice. Let's try and do that. Today 1:28:52.960 --> 1:28:55.280 is one of the maybe things could be better episodes. 1:28:55.360 --> 1:28:58.719 And we are talking about the ongoing wave of strikes. 1:28:59.240 --> 1:29:03.040 We had Strike Ober last month with John Dear strikes 1:29:03.160 --> 1:29:06.800 and and and strikes uh and like what it a 1:29:06.880 --> 1:29:09.559 couple of different food companies, a bunch of strikes um. 1:29:09.840 --> 1:29:11.920 And today we would like to get an update on 1:29:12.439 --> 1:29:14.800 all the motherfucker's who were out there striking for better 1:29:14.880 --> 1:29:20.439 conditions UM and and better treatment UM. And today, for 1:29:20.640 --> 1:29:23.479 that purpose, we've brought on the Great Kim Kelly. Kim. 1:29:24.000 --> 1:29:26.760 You are a journalist who focuses a hell of a 1:29:26.800 --> 1:29:29.880 lot on labor. You've been up and down to some 1:29:29.920 --> 1:29:31.640 of the coal strikes that have been going on. You 1:29:31.680 --> 1:29:34.479 were there for the Amazon attempt to form the union 1:29:35.040 --> 1:29:40.120 in um O GS was that Arizona, um Alabama, Alabama? 1:29:40.400 --> 1:29:42.479 UM And you're writing a book on the history of 1:29:42.600 --> 1:29:45.160 labor um in the United States. So I'd like to 1:29:45.360 --> 1:29:48.519 just kind of turn the floor over to you. There's 1:29:48.520 --> 1:29:53.320 a four. There's okay, there's a four. It is filthy, 1:29:53.800 --> 1:29:55.760 just as it AADs up. You know, we're doing our best, 1:29:55.800 --> 1:29:59.280 aren't we. Yeah? Weird, Yeah you are, we are not. 1:30:00.840 --> 1:30:02.400 I am I'm trying to keep up with all this 1:30:02.560 --> 1:30:07.720 labor action. It's exciting action, hot labor action, some hot 1:30:07.840 --> 1:30:11.680 labor action stories. So, as you mentioned, we're just kind 1:30:11.720 --> 1:30:15.320 of coasting off of the peak of Striketober, which was 1:30:15.400 --> 1:30:17.680 such a fun thing to kind of see explode in 1:30:17.720 --> 1:30:21.000 the mainstream consciousness. Like usually labor stories, they are a 1:30:21.040 --> 1:30:23.320 big deal with the people that are involved in them 1:30:23.600 --> 1:30:25.320 and people in the labor world who are watching and 1:30:25.439 --> 1:30:27.920 like rooting for them, but they don't necessarily end up 1:30:27.960 --> 1:30:31.000 on like you know, the mainstream like that. Theyn't end 1:30:31.040 --> 1:30:32.800 up on the TV. They don't end up with like 1:30:33.439 --> 1:30:35.880 fancy old guys talking about it on dateline or whatever. 1:30:36.520 --> 1:30:39.640 But that's something that happened, and I think there's been 1:30:39.680 --> 1:30:43.120 a real shifting consciousness that is the company that And 1:30:43.240 --> 1:30:45.360 of course you know, it's like Strictober is fun. There's 1:30:45.360 --> 1:30:47.439 all these these big strikes happening at the same time. 1:30:47.600 --> 1:30:49.840 But we of course need to remember that that didn't 1:30:49.880 --> 1:30:52.559 happen in a vacuum. There's people on strike now who 1:30:52.640 --> 1:30:55.400 have been on strikes since before, since before it was cool, right, 1:30:55.880 --> 1:30:59.160 since much earlier. Like shout out to the st Vincent 1:30:59.400 --> 1:31:03.280 nurses in Massachusetts and to the coal miners in Brooke 1:31:03.320 --> 1:31:05.719 with Alabama Warrior Men who have both don on strike 1:31:05.760 --> 1:31:09.200 for over eight months and then kind of right so 1:31:09.520 --> 1:31:11.720 literally like they're like they're in the middle of their 1:31:11.720 --> 1:31:14.080 tour drives for their children because they've been on strike 1:31:14.120 --> 1:31:16.439 for so long, and they kind of got a little 1:31:16.439 --> 1:31:19.320 bit left out of the conversation around strike Tober and 1:31:19.760 --> 1:31:21.240 I think that just kind of shows that we need 1:31:21.280 --> 1:31:23.679 to be paying attention even when it's not as flashy 1:31:23.800 --> 1:31:25.880 or new or exciting. I mean, strikes were was exciting, 1:31:25.960 --> 1:31:29.599 but you know, there's a lot going on and one 1:31:29.600 --> 1:31:33.000 of the things I think is interesting and important, especially 1:31:33.040 --> 1:31:36.880 as we head into strikes giving, which I guess we're doing. Yeah, 1:31:37.200 --> 1:31:42.160 strikes giving strike Smiths, strike in time, thank you, Ary. 1:31:42.360 --> 1:31:50.920 I guess to day forth strike you Lily, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:31:51.000 --> 1:31:54.719 it's it gets worse really until we get to Labor 1:31:54.840 --> 1:31:58.360 Day and by then Striker's Day. That one works pretty well. 1:31:58.479 --> 1:32:00.920 I'm also a fan of strike and Town's Day, um 1:32:01.400 --> 1:32:06.439 strike and tized Day. That's cute. Rage baby, keep this going, Yeah, 1:32:07.920 --> 1:32:13.960 strike strike, there's a missed opportunity there. Although that that 1:32:14.160 --> 1:32:16.600 frightens me Garrison that the band ween might go on 1:32:16.760 --> 1:32:20.360 strike and I don't know society we do, we wouldn't 1:32:20.400 --> 1:32:23.320 have our we would we would be completely out of ween, 1:32:23.520 --> 1:32:25.680 our reserves if we aren't going to last long if 1:32:25.720 --> 1:32:30.880 they stop friends. Yeah, there's been a tragic shortage of 1:32:30.920 --> 1:32:32.559 ween for years now. I don't know that we can 1:32:32.600 --> 1:32:35.360 handle a stripe. You can. I mean, I didn't realize 1:32:35.400 --> 1:32:37.439 you were a nerd, Robert. This is kind of throw 1:32:37.560 --> 1:32:43.840 some things into question. Yeah, yeah, I mean, as a 1:32:43.880 --> 1:32:46.920 heavy metal dirtbag, I'm like contractually obligated to make say 1:32:46.960 --> 1:32:53.519 things like that. But as I was pontificating a minute ago, right, So, 1:32:53.880 --> 1:32:56.559 as we go into strikes giving, there are still more 1:32:56.640 --> 1:32:59.679 big strikes on the horizon and potentially strikes in the horizon. 1:33:00.160 --> 1:33:02.200 But part of the story that I think is also 1:33:02.320 --> 1:33:06.000 very energizing and important is the organizing that's happening in 1:33:06.080 --> 1:33:09.479 the new unions that are hopefully gonna end up being formed, 1:33:10.000 --> 1:33:12.479 not necessarily as a result of this wave of attention, 1:33:12.560 --> 1:33:14.720 but they're kind of caught up in the tide. I mean, 1:33:14.760 --> 1:33:17.640 we look at the Starbucks workers in Buffalo who have 1:33:17.920 --> 1:33:20.160 scared the ship out of their employers to the point 1:33:20.160 --> 1:33:23.240 where they're flying executives in to follow them. Around the 1:33:23.280 --> 1:33:25.600 store and be like, please don't vote for reunion. We 1:33:25.720 --> 1:33:28.000 need all of our billions of dollars we can't share. 1:33:28.760 --> 1:33:31.840 Or you know, even workers at wire Cutter who are 1:33:31.960 --> 1:33:35.040 threatening to strike on Black Friday and their whole thing 1:33:35.200 --> 1:33:38.960 is telling people what's stuff to buy, you know, and 1:33:39.240 --> 1:33:41.559 McDonald's workers, and I think ten different these are ten 1:33:41.600 --> 1:33:44.680 different cities or ten different states, ten different locations just 1:33:44.920 --> 1:33:47.280 went out on like a one day strike over sexual 1:33:47.360 --> 1:33:50.800 harassment in the workplace. Kroger workers are taking a strike 1:33:50.840 --> 1:33:55.479 authorization vote in Texas. We have multiple Amazon organizing attempts 1:33:55.520 --> 1:33:58.280 happening in Staten Island, and a rerun of the election 1:33:58.400 --> 1:34:01.040 coming up in Best for Alabama, and there's just so 1:34:01.200 --> 1:34:05.280 much happening that, you know, I hope that the novelty 1:34:05.400 --> 1:34:07.439 idea of the strikes wild word strikes giving. I hope 1:34:07.479 --> 1:34:09.080 like that was fun. But I hope now that people 1:34:09.120 --> 1:34:12.120 are paying attention, that they stay interested and realize that, 1:34:12.240 --> 1:34:15.280 you know, labor stories. Maybe it's not necessarily always like 1:34:15.720 --> 1:34:17.840 a big strike or like a cool picket line to 1:34:17.920 --> 1:34:21.439 look at, but there's a lot going on. Like every 1:34:21.520 --> 1:34:23.960 story is a work story, every story is a labor story, 1:34:24.479 --> 1:34:26.800 and people seem like they're finally catching on the fact 1:34:26.880 --> 1:34:29.519 that you know, we're all workers and wow, cool things 1:34:29.600 --> 1:34:33.840 happen when we come together. Yeah. I I hope that too, 1:34:34.040 --> 1:34:36.760 and I hope that, um, you know the word on 1:34:36.880 --> 1:34:39.720 everybody's lips, who's I don't know. Coming at this from 1:34:39.760 --> 1:34:42.400 kind of a little bit of a more uh, either 1:34:42.560 --> 1:34:45.080 radical or desperate point of view, depending on how you 1:34:45.120 --> 1:34:48.040 want to frame it. Is like general strike, general strike, 1:34:48.120 --> 1:34:51.240 and you know, there's there's been some there's been people 1:34:51.280 --> 1:34:53.360 online who keep saying like, Okay, well we're all just 1:34:53.400 --> 1:34:56.760 gonna go on on Black Friday, everybody general strike And 1:34:56.800 --> 1:34:58.439 it's like, yeah, well you don't. You don't set that 1:34:58.560 --> 1:35:01.080 up on Twitter. Like the unions that are striking now 1:35:01.280 --> 1:35:03.519 have strike funds and put a lot of thought into 1:35:03.600 --> 1:35:06.560 it and have like had to take there's things you 1:35:06.680 --> 1:35:09.320 have to do in order to not irresponsibly like just 1:35:09.479 --> 1:35:12.880 screw over a bunch of working people. Um. But it 1:35:13.080 --> 1:35:16.840 is like, I'm a believer in the potential of something 1:35:16.920 --> 1:35:22.479 like a general strike to to force significant concessions. I mean, 1:35:22.640 --> 1:35:26.920 if we did it right, Yeah, I think if. I 1:35:27.000 --> 1:35:30.240 mean it's a huge if because it's never really effectively 1:35:30.320 --> 1:35:32.720 been like there's been pieces of it done, like we saw. 1:35:32.840 --> 1:35:35.320 I think the closest we've gotten in like my lifetime 1:35:35.400 --> 1:35:38.400 has been when the the airline workers threatened to go 1:35:38.640 --> 1:35:41.120 on strike over the over the budget thing, and you 1:35:41.240 --> 1:35:43.479 just saw the federal government go, oh fuck, nope, you 1:35:43.520 --> 1:35:49.240 know what, we can actually pass this thing. I mean, 1:35:49.320 --> 1:35:51.560 that's the thing like that threat that I think that 1:35:51.720 --> 1:35:54.960 was Sara Nelson said that even like hinted towards that 1:35:55.000 --> 1:35:57.240 in twenty nineteen when the government shutdown. That's sort of 1:35:57.400 --> 1:35:59.120 that was a tipping point. I think that's the first 1:35:59.160 --> 1:36:02.560 time people, well really was probab the first time in 1:36:02.600 --> 1:36:05.120 many people's lifetimes that an actual labor leader with that 1:36:05.200 --> 1:36:08.800 platform had even mentioned those words. Because general like general 1:36:08.840 --> 1:36:11.760 strikes historically kind of are more situated in that late 1:36:11.880 --> 1:36:15.200 nineteenth century, early twentieth century like labor swinging its stick 1:36:15.240 --> 1:36:18.720 around era, and we've been kneecapped so much that that 1:36:19.080 --> 1:36:21.679 doesn't feel as as possible. But I mean the fact 1:36:21.760 --> 1:36:24.200 that she said, and she was part of the airline industry, 1:36:24.600 --> 1:36:27.839 if we're ever going to actually you know, bring capital 1:36:27.880 --> 1:36:31.080 to its knees, we're gonna need the transportation workers. We're 1:36:31.080 --> 1:36:33.120 gonna need the dock workers. We're gonna need to like 1:36:33.720 --> 1:36:36.920 actually analyze who is moving things around the country, who's 1:36:36.960 --> 1:36:39.920 making sure things work, and how can we get them 1:36:40.360 --> 1:36:42.679 to put down to down their tools and be like, Okay, 1:36:43.080 --> 1:36:44.960 we're gonna do something about this. You know, the whole 1:36:45.000 --> 1:36:48.439 general strike idea, I mean, I mean and arguably, like 1:36:48.520 --> 1:36:51.560 one of the first ones was you know, Black reconstruction. 1:36:52.000 --> 1:36:56.559 They the book, there's uh this argument that the first 1:36:56.600 --> 1:37:01.439 general strike was enslaved enslaved people leaving the plantations and 1:37:01.960 --> 1:37:05.560 withdrawing their labor from that situation, like that was a 1:37:05.680 --> 1:37:08.320 form of striking. And I think the general strike is 1:37:08.400 --> 1:37:11.320 kind of a morphous idea, especially online as more people 1:37:11.400 --> 1:37:13.240 learn about labor and learn about it. But there's also 1:37:13.280 --> 1:37:17.040 like kind of a specific thing like yeah, you can't 1:37:17.080 --> 1:37:18.840 just declare like Okay, we're all not going to go 1:37:18.960 --> 1:37:23.080 to work tomorrow, like cool, But there's so much planning 1:37:23.120 --> 1:37:24.920 that goes into it to make sure that people are 1:37:25.560 --> 1:37:27.679 able to do that and sustain that. And the people 1:37:27.720 --> 1:37:30.800 that are traditionally you know, already left out or the 1:37:30.840 --> 1:37:34.160 most vulnerable and marginalize like that their needs are prioritized 1:37:34.200 --> 1:37:38.240 because the people that can afford to declare general strike 1:37:38.320 --> 1:37:40.439 and not show up for a week, Like that's all 1:37:40.479 --> 1:37:42.840 well and good for them, but what about everyone else 1:37:42.880 --> 1:37:46.160 who can barely afford to go to work at all. Yeah, 1:37:46.439 --> 1:37:50.280 I've had these arguments with people online, and it's often like, well, 1:37:50.320 --> 1:37:52.160 you're saying we shouldn't be like, if we just do it, 1:37:52.280 --> 1:37:54.439 people will figure it out, like the infrastructure will be 1:37:54.479 --> 1:37:57.840 build after the fact. And I'm like, that's I'm glad 1:37:57.880 --> 1:37:59.880 that you're in a situation where you feel like you 1:38:00.000 --> 1:38:02.240 could you could handle that kind of uncertainty. But like 1:38:02.840 --> 1:38:06.080 a single mother of four who relies on her job 1:38:06.240 --> 1:38:08.560 to keep them fed and alive, isn't going to be 1:38:08.680 --> 1:38:11.120 like someone will figure out how to feed my kids, Like, well, 1:38:12.960 --> 1:38:15.560 that's not how people work, you know. Yeah, this is 1:38:15.600 --> 1:38:18.320 where having like a robust commitment to mutual aid and 1:38:18.640 --> 1:38:22.000 strike funds and like an actual fabric, like having the 1:38:22.040 --> 1:38:24.559 fabric of community where you can depend on your neighbors 1:38:24.600 --> 1:38:28.080 instead of never talking to them, Like a general strike 1:38:28.200 --> 1:38:32.000 would have a huge impact, but on who, Like who 1:38:32.040 --> 1:38:34.679 would it hurt more if you didn't plan it properly, 1:38:34.760 --> 1:38:38.040 if you didn't have if you didn't have an actual 1:38:38.439 --> 1:38:41.479 grassroots network of people ready to help if you didn't 1:38:41.520 --> 1:38:43.559 need to understanding that not everyone can just go run 1:38:43.600 --> 1:38:46.320 off in the streets. Some people like have mobility issues, 1:38:46.439 --> 1:38:49.080 some people have children, some people are older or sicker. Like, 1:38:49.200 --> 1:38:52.479 there's so much that goes into it. Yeah, it's like 1:38:52.600 --> 1:38:54.479 your car is fucked up and you know you need 1:38:54.520 --> 1:38:56.519 to take it in to get some stuff fixed, or 1:38:56.560 --> 1:38:59.080 it's eventually going to break down entirely. But that doesn't 1:38:59.080 --> 1:39:01.040 mean the right solution to just get in there and 1:39:01.320 --> 1:39:03.880 start hitting ship with a hammer like you need there 1:39:03.920 --> 1:39:07.120 needs to be like some systemic way you approach it right, 1:39:07.200 --> 1:39:10.439 Like there's a proper way to fix an engine, right, 1:39:10.600 --> 1:39:13.080 and we can do that, Like we can start building 1:39:13.120 --> 1:39:15.439 those networks. We can start you can organize your workplace 1:39:15.479 --> 1:39:18.599 and plug into the into like the organized labor framework, 1:39:18.600 --> 1:39:21.600 which obviously has many flaws, not as radical as I 1:39:21.640 --> 1:39:23.720 would and many other people like it to be, but 1:39:23.840 --> 1:39:27.760 they know how to do this ship. Like, there's a 1:39:27.840 --> 1:39:30.559 lot of different pieces that can be pulled together, different 1:39:30.640 --> 1:39:33.680 organizations and populations that need to work together if we're 1:39:33.720 --> 1:39:37.559 actually going to accomplish something like this, And I don't 1:39:37.560 --> 1:39:39.080 know if people are ready to put in all that 1:39:39.200 --> 1:39:44.120 work because it's more fun to tweet. Yeah, but I'm wondering, 1:39:44.880 --> 1:39:47.760 as they say in Alabama, bless their hearts. You're you're 1:39:47.800 --> 1:39:49.960 spending a tremendous m emman, as you just noted, You're 1:39:49.960 --> 1:39:51.920 spending a tremendous amount of time on the ground with 1:39:52.000 --> 1:39:54.439 a lot of these people talking with them. Are you 1:39:54.920 --> 1:39:59.240 are you seeing kind of how how are you hearing 1:39:59.320 --> 1:40:01.479 them talk about the other strike efforts you know, in 1:40:01.520 --> 1:40:03.439 other industries that are going on right now, because it 1:40:03.520 --> 1:40:05.400 has been more in the news than it's been at 1:40:05.400 --> 1:40:07.280 any point I can recall on the recent past, And 1:40:07.320 --> 1:40:09.960 I'm wondering how in places like Bessemer, you know, in 1:40:10.040 --> 1:40:12.680 places like um you know that coal miners strike you've 1:40:12.680 --> 1:40:15.240 been at, like, how are they being are to what 1:40:15.360 --> 1:40:17.800 extent are they talking about other strike efforts? Like is 1:40:17.840 --> 1:40:19.640 that does that seem to be something that there's a 1:40:19.680 --> 1:40:22.000 lot of kind of consciousness and discussion about or is 1:40:22.040 --> 1:40:24.200 it just kind of in the background. I mean, it 1:40:24.280 --> 1:40:26.439 really depends. I like you said, I've spent I spent 1:40:26.520 --> 1:40:28.320 most of my time with the coal miners over the 1:40:28.360 --> 1:40:30.080 past years. I've been writing a book and that's been 1:40:30.160 --> 1:40:32.479 my one, my one fun thing. But I've been I mean, 1:40:32.520 --> 1:40:34.280 I talked to them every single day. And I've been 1:40:34.320 --> 1:40:36.400 to Alabama lots of times, and I you know, I'm 1:40:36.400 --> 1:40:38.439 in a group chaut with the wives, Like I know, 1:40:38.840 --> 1:40:41.519 I have a decent grasp what's going on. And honestly, 1:40:42.000 --> 1:40:44.040 the thing about is that some there, there are some 1:40:44.160 --> 1:40:46.799 folks who are very engaged and who have made twitters 1:40:46.880 --> 1:40:48.439 and they have their Facebook groups and they do pay 1:40:48.439 --> 1:40:50.640 attention is happening, and I do think they feel that 1:40:50.800 --> 1:40:54.320 kind of excitement and that wide spread says its solidarity. 1:40:55.000 --> 1:40:58.040 But one thing there that's important to remember, especially for 1:40:58.120 --> 1:41:01.200 workers who are already disadvantaged or the dealing with low 1:41:01.280 --> 1:41:04.400 wage labor, is like it's really hard to go on strike, 1:41:05.120 --> 1:41:07.160 Like there's a lot of ship they have to figure out, 1:41:07.280 --> 1:41:09.880 Like there's kids, there's health issues, there's how am I 1:41:09.960 --> 1:41:12.320 going to pay my rent? Like like funds are great, 1:41:12.400 --> 1:41:15.160 but they don't cover everything. Like I think that's one 1:41:15.200 --> 1:41:17.879 of the realities that maybe it gets sort of glossed 1:41:17.960 --> 1:41:20.960 over because we're also online and we like to you 1:41:21.080 --> 1:41:23.240 and me, it feels like, oh, everyone's fucking stoked about 1:41:23.280 --> 1:41:26.720 these strikes. But for someone in rural Alabama who is 1:41:26.760 --> 1:41:29.040 just hoping this strike is over soon, so they can 1:41:29.120 --> 1:41:32.240 go back to work and have some financial stability. They're 1:41:32.280 --> 1:41:35.280 not necessarily reading your tweets or like signing up for 1:41:35.360 --> 1:41:39.759 webinars or even paying attention to like cool other strike efforts. 1:41:40.240 --> 1:41:42.400 I'm sure some some folks are aware and they find 1:41:42.520 --> 1:41:45.200 have that time to plug in, but most people are 1:41:45.200 --> 1:41:47.640 just trying to get by. And these are folks who 1:41:47.680 --> 1:41:49.439 are spend like eight hours a day on the picket 1:41:49.479 --> 1:41:51.760 lines and there's no cell phone service out where their 1:41:51.800 --> 1:41:54.920 picket lines are, Like, there's only so much that a 1:41:55.120 --> 1:41:58.000 normal regular worker on the picket line can do to 1:41:58.120 --> 1:42:02.840 keep up. Yeah, and um, you came into this, I 1:42:02.840 --> 1:42:04.840 think unlike a lot of the people who are who 1:42:04.880 --> 1:42:08.599 are actually striking, you came into this with a lifelong 1:42:08.680 --> 1:42:11.840 history of the like of interest in kind of uh 1:42:12.479 --> 1:42:15.599 labor justice movements and whatnot, which I don't think most 1:42:15.640 --> 1:42:17.880 people who are in unions necessarily spend a ton of 1:42:17.960 --> 1:42:21.599 time studying the last hundred years of labor relations. Um, 1:42:21.840 --> 1:42:24.160 what has surprised you? Like? What what have what? What 1:42:24.400 --> 1:42:27.400 is like been a new realization that you've gotten since 1:42:27.439 --> 1:42:29.519 you started covering the stuff on the ground in this 1:42:29.640 --> 1:42:33.600 most recent period. So the thing that's really sticks with me, 1:42:33.680 --> 1:42:35.840 and I'm going past my minors again because that's you know, 1:42:36.040 --> 1:42:39.160 my where where the most familiarity. But something that I 1:42:39.280 --> 1:42:41.760 think has so much potential, and I'm not going to 1:42:42.080 --> 1:42:44.640 entirely sure how to articulate what that potential is. But 1:42:45.120 --> 1:42:48.000 so something I have seen is when this strike began, 1:42:48.640 --> 1:42:51.479 most not all, but the majority of the folks involved 1:42:51.479 --> 1:42:55.680 in this particular strike, or conservative Christian people who were 1:42:55.920 --> 1:42:57.320 a lot of voted for Trump, but a lot of 1:42:57.360 --> 1:42:59.800 them were like just in that world, maybe not like 1:43:00.200 --> 1:43:03.000 you know, wild mega people, but that's just what was 1:43:03.120 --> 1:43:06.000 the norm where they are in their community, and they 1:43:06.080 --> 1:43:08.559 will think about that much. But there are some people 1:43:08.720 --> 1:43:11.160 that I've seen, especially those were involved in the mutual 1:43:11.200 --> 1:43:13.840 aid efforts or have been who have seen Birmingham DSA 1:43:14.000 --> 1:43:16.920 come out, who have kind of taken this kind of 1:43:17.120 --> 1:43:19.560 like wider review of what's happening, how they fit in. 1:43:20.080 --> 1:43:23.920 I've seen their politics and their perspective shift, Like there 1:43:23.960 --> 1:43:26.200 are some people who are like straight up socialists now 1:43:26.400 --> 1:43:29.880 that seven months ago would have probably spit in your 1:43:29.920 --> 1:43:32.120 face or at least given you a hell of a 1:43:32.240 --> 1:43:35.160 look if you wouldn't even suggested such a thing. And 1:43:35.240 --> 1:43:36.800 this is a small sample size, and this is a 1:43:36.880 --> 1:43:39.920 unique situation, but I think it really speaks to the 1:43:40.000 --> 1:43:45.360 potential there to like reach people who are very ideologically 1:43:45.479 --> 1:43:48.800 politically different from what we maybe think of as labor, 1:43:48.920 --> 1:43:52.559 people as progressive, radical whatever people on like our team, right, 1:43:53.240 --> 1:43:55.439 But the power of the strike and the power of 1:43:55.600 --> 1:43:58.439 labor is that there is so much there. There's kind 1:43:58.479 --> 1:44:02.040 of an inherent calm and ground because so many people, 1:44:02.080 --> 1:44:04.800 most people, a lot of people, most people have a job, 1:44:05.240 --> 1:44:07.559 a lot of people hate their boss. You can kind 1:44:07.600 --> 1:44:11.000 of build from that very very low baseline and find 1:44:11.120 --> 1:44:14.479 more common ground and kind of you can you can 1:44:14.520 --> 1:44:16.880 work towards a better understanding. Like maybe you're not going 1:44:16.920 --> 1:44:20.520 to be best friends, but you can potentially shift someone's 1:44:20.800 --> 1:44:24.240 harmful worldview by exposing them to new ideas once they 1:44:24.320 --> 1:44:26.160 trust that you're not just there to tell them they're 1:44:26.200 --> 1:44:30.080 wrong and stupid and bad. Were like, look, we were 1:44:30.160 --> 1:44:32.080 coming at this like I'm going to talk to you 1:44:32.200 --> 1:44:34.799 like a person. I understand we see the world differently, 1:44:34.920 --> 1:44:36.760 but like you know, I'm here to support you. I'm 1:44:36.800 --> 1:44:38.680 here listening to you. Maybe you could listen to what 1:44:38.760 --> 1:44:41.040 I have to say too, Maybe it might change how 1:44:41.120 --> 1:44:46.920 you see things. And sometimes it works. Yeah. Yeah, um 1:44:47.800 --> 1:44:53.599 you know what else works kim blowing shut up? Well 1:44:53.800 --> 1:45:00.880 okay allegedly um minecraft. Yeah. I was gonna say cap ads, 1:45:01.479 --> 1:45:07.640 cap adalisms, ads and services. Um, but I like your 1:45:07.680 --> 1:45:10.000 answer better. So let's just let's just let's just roll 1:45:10.080 --> 1:45:14.840 out with that material support, right. Like another concrete example there, 1:45:14.920 --> 1:45:18.680 the Birmingham DSA has been very active in fundraising and 1:45:18.760 --> 1:45:22.439 showing up and just providing support for the miners and 1:45:22.560 --> 1:45:25.519 and the people on strike. And this is not necessarily 1:45:25.560 --> 1:45:28.800 a population of people that like the idea of socialism, 1:45:28.880 --> 1:45:31.880 whatever idea of it is that they hold, because Fox 1:45:32.000 --> 1:45:35.760 News and russal In Barre are big cultural stand bias there, 1:45:35.960 --> 1:45:38.640 like whatever they think socialism is. And then have a 1:45:38.680 --> 1:45:41.640 bunch of socialists show up and just practice solidarity and 1:45:41.720 --> 1:45:45.000 mutual aiding practice socialism, and they're like, oh, these guys 1:45:45.040 --> 1:45:47.720 are great, thank you for coming out and things like that, 1:45:47.960 --> 1:45:51.080 where it's like, I feel like so much of radical 1:45:51.160 --> 1:45:55.040 politics in various, you know, various tendencies. There's just like 1:45:55.120 --> 1:45:58.560 a branding problem and there's a propaganda problem on the 1:45:58.680 --> 1:46:00.640 right wing, and the mainstre media is tell anybody what 1:46:00.720 --> 1:46:05.120 anything means, Like, yeah, it's a broader conversation, right, But 1:46:06.160 --> 1:46:08.519 I felt for a while like one of the things 1:46:08.640 --> 1:46:11.720 that leftist organizers need to get better at doing is 1:46:12.160 --> 1:46:17.320 being willing to like drop names when they're not productive. Like, Okay, 1:46:17.400 --> 1:46:20.120 maybe these people because of the media environment, they've grown 1:46:20.200 --> 1:46:22.520 up and are never gonna want to consider themselves socialists. 1:46:22.960 --> 1:46:26.519 But if they are willing to organize together and support 1:46:26.560 --> 1:46:29.639 the efforts of other working people to organize together against 1:46:30.720 --> 1:46:34.000 the capital holding class, like then okay, Like what is it? 1:46:34.160 --> 1:46:36.719 Why do you need them to like start quoting Karl 1:46:36.800 --> 1:46:39.360 Marx or is it just cool that you've you've got 1:46:39.439 --> 1:46:42.599 them doing what they like? Yeah? I I that makes 1:46:42.600 --> 1:46:44.920 a lot of sense to me that, like, yes, some 1:46:45.120 --> 1:46:46.560 that you can get a lot of these people on 1:46:46.680 --> 1:46:50.680 board with again, pretty radical things if you're if you're 1:46:50.720 --> 1:46:53.280 kind of approaching it from within their world, from within, 1:46:53.439 --> 1:46:56.200 like I'm not trying to talk to you about burning 1:46:56.240 --> 1:46:57.880 down the system. I'm trying to talk to you about 1:46:57.880 --> 1:46:59.360 how you get what you need. And it just so 1:46:59.479 --> 1:47:02.240 happens that how you get what you need um is 1:47:02.680 --> 1:47:05.840 taking the system on in a very direct way. I Mean, 1:47:05.960 --> 1:47:08.360 so many ideas that are painted as radical just like 1:47:08.760 --> 1:47:13.680 aren't like that's normal people caring for him, like it 1:47:13.880 --> 1:47:16.559 is like community care and common sense. It's just been 1:47:16.600 --> 1:47:22.240 politicized to this insane extent. And even it's like I'm 1:47:22.240 --> 1:47:23.280 just like even like a lot a lot of the 1:47:23.320 --> 1:47:25.160 tenants of mutual aid you can even see pop up 1:47:25.160 --> 1:47:28.360 in a lot of like church communities as well, at 1:47:28.439 --> 1:47:30.559 least like at least like smaller, you know, closer knit 1:47:30.640 --> 1:47:32.720 like communities that are actually based around helping each other. 1:47:32.760 --> 1:47:34.960 At least I was I've observed that and a lot 1:47:35.040 --> 1:47:38.160 of my time traveling across the States. Yeah, absolutely, that's 1:47:38.160 --> 1:47:40.320 a huge part of it. Like the church is the 1:47:40.400 --> 1:47:43.280 only mutual aid option in so many like smaller and 1:47:43.320 --> 1:47:45.880 more icely rural communities or just communities where the church 1:47:45.960 --> 1:47:49.880 is a big deal. Like there's always ways to chip 1:47:49.920 --> 1:47:53.960 away these institutions and eventually hopefully burned them down right 1:47:54.080 --> 1:47:56.679 without alienating people and making them feel like you're coming 1:47:56.680 --> 1:47:59.120 in and telling them everything you believe is wrong and 1:47:59.200 --> 1:48:01.280 actually and I'm making a mistakes. And of these folks, 1:48:01.400 --> 1:48:04.120 I'm sure they believe things that are absolute garbage. And 1:48:04.160 --> 1:48:08.000 I would never do everybody, you know, like there's you know, 1:48:08.840 --> 1:48:12.479 but there's there's just covering this strike in particular has 1:48:12.520 --> 1:48:15.320 really just taught me a lot about the gray areas 1:48:15.400 --> 1:48:18.160 in between, not in like I wish you watched a 1:48:18.200 --> 1:48:20.040 liberal way, but just in a way of like, how 1:48:20.080 --> 1:48:22.320 do you relate to normal fucking people who see the 1:48:22.360 --> 1:48:25.560 world differently but are in ultimately the same struggle as you? Like, 1:48:26.400 --> 1:48:30.439 maybe I could, I mean going down there on the 1:48:30.520 --> 1:48:32.840 only time I've been around that many Trump supporters was 1:48:32.920 --> 1:48:35.040 like at protests where I was yelling at them, or 1:48:35.120 --> 1:48:38.960 like at my family dinners. So I wasn't you know, 1:48:40.400 --> 1:48:42.880 I wasn't expecting to make friends, but then I did, 1:48:43.760 --> 1:48:46.640 and I think hopefully we've we've shifted each other's perspectives 1:48:46.640 --> 1:48:49.519 a little bit in a way that's beneficial. I don't know, 1:48:49.800 --> 1:48:54.000 it's been, It's been interesting. Yes, talking to people really 1:48:54.520 --> 1:48:57.680 is a lot different than tweeting at them. Yeah, as 1:48:57.760 --> 1:49:01.599 a rule, don't tweet would be my recommendation to people. 1:49:02.040 --> 1:49:06.880 Never never, Yeah, talk to your neighbors and be nice 1:49:06.920 --> 1:49:08.960 to people when you buy coffee or food from them, 1:49:09.000 --> 1:49:13.040 and amaze what happens. And yeah, tell your neighbors, Hey, 1:49:13.080 --> 1:49:14.960 I'm taking my phone down to the river to throw 1:49:15.000 --> 1:49:17.040 it in. Can I take your phone with me? Can 1:49:17.080 --> 1:49:19.720 we just all throw our phones in the river? Um, yeah, 1:49:21.960 --> 1:49:23.840 if you want to. If you're gonna start at being 1:49:23.920 --> 1:49:27.280 the weird neighbor, it's a strong start. We've already killed 1:49:27.320 --> 1:49:30.160 the water system, so it's fine, like just right in 1:49:30.200 --> 1:49:33.320 the river with the car batteries. You know, they're good 1:49:33.360 --> 1:49:35.280 for the eels. The thing I love about our show 1:49:35.400 --> 1:49:39.480 is just the hope, is the incredibly hope injected optimism 1:49:39.560 --> 1:49:43.280 that we start an end every episode with. But no, 1:49:43.360 --> 1:49:45.519 I mean like me, like, yeah, the more people you 1:49:45.640 --> 1:49:48.200 know in your community, especially people who are like working class, 1:49:48.640 --> 1:49:51.800 you know, when bad stuff starts happening, the more people 1:49:51.880 --> 1:49:54.439 you know the better, because that's a lot of guessing. 1:49:54.439 --> 1:49:55.920 A lot of a lot of these people who are 1:49:56.000 --> 1:49:58.479 like you know, like like like like old like old 1:49:59.120 --> 1:50:01.960 union workers. They have a lot of like physical skills, 1:50:02.040 --> 1:50:04.240 like like they know how to do a whole bunch 1:50:04.280 --> 1:50:07.120 of stuff. And it might be worth getting to know 1:50:07.320 --> 1:50:10.639 some of those people, even if you know, depending where 1:50:10.680 --> 1:50:12.920 you live, like yeah, they'll probably say something not great 1:50:13.400 --> 1:50:15.800 at least for you know, the first bit, but once 1:50:15.920 --> 1:50:17.519 you know, I have a lot of family and like 1:50:17.600 --> 1:50:21.600 a rural area of Alberta, and like yeah, my, my 1:50:21.680 --> 1:50:24.439 family is like pretty gay. Um. So you know, once 1:50:24.479 --> 1:50:26.639 you're in close to those people, yeah, they're they're gonna 1:50:26.680 --> 1:50:29.680 say something that's maybe not great. But once they get 1:50:29.760 --> 1:50:31.560 to like know, you would really be like, oh, like 1:50:31.600 --> 1:50:34.400 you're another person. They like people actually, you know, people 1:50:34.479 --> 1:50:37.160 want to be around other people, and they'll even change 1:50:37.200 --> 1:50:39.080 the way they talk to be like, oh, yeah, maybe 1:50:39.120 --> 1:50:41.160 this isn't the best way to hang out around people 1:50:41.439 --> 1:50:43.760 because it's going to drive people away. So yeah, I'll 1:50:43.920 --> 1:50:45.960 change the way I say some things because like it 1:50:46.240 --> 1:50:48.320 turns out people actually, like a lot of a lot 1:50:48.360 --> 1:50:50.840 of folks just kind of want to make their lives 1:50:50.880 --> 1:50:54.000 a bit better and that's really their main focus. Yeah, 1:50:55.600 --> 1:50:59.080 it's hard to know to do that. And it's it's 1:50:59.160 --> 1:51:02.240 it's just this man or of like so much of 1:51:02.439 --> 1:51:05.880 what um, so much of what kind of the way 1:51:05.960 --> 1:51:10.840 that discourse happens online has poisoned aspects of activism is 1:51:10.960 --> 1:51:15.960 in like making it difficult for people to relate in 1:51:16.120 --> 1:51:18.400 that way without feeling like, well, okay, but if I 1:51:18.439 --> 1:51:20.320 can't get them on board with all of these other things, 1:51:20.479 --> 1:51:22.719 like I can't talk with them or whatever, like because 1:51:22.800 --> 1:51:25.320 they're because they don't agree with this and this like 1:51:25.439 --> 1:51:30.640 we can't organize like the purity of ideology. Yeah, Like 1:51:30.720 --> 1:51:33.240 I feel like most people who aren't terminally online don't 1:51:33.280 --> 1:51:38.559 even necessarily have like a specific ideology not yeah yeah right, 1:51:38.720 --> 1:51:40.960 Like there's just stuff that they have learned or they 1:51:41.000 --> 1:51:43.320 have decided that is true about the world. They just 1:51:43.360 --> 1:51:46.120 kind of go with it and interrogated all the time, 1:51:46.240 --> 1:51:47.880 and you can like those are people you can talk 1:51:47.920 --> 1:51:50.479 to and maybe ship, like I've done it with my dad, 1:51:50.760 --> 1:51:53.440 Like I've seen it happen with some of these conservative 1:51:53.479 --> 1:51:55.720 coal minor folks. Like even something as small as being 1:51:55.760 --> 1:52:00.240 able to humanize, like like okay, if you're talking about 1:52:00.240 --> 1:52:02.200 something like, well the thing you said, like that really 1:52:02.280 --> 1:52:05.400 upset Joey and you like Joey, so like maybe think 1:52:05.439 --> 1:52:07.640 about that, and they'll probably be chiller because like, oh, 1:52:07.720 --> 1:52:09.960 well that's yeah, it's Joey. I can't I don't want 1:52:10.000 --> 1:52:11.600 to be a dick to them. If we can just 1:52:11.640 --> 1:52:13.879 find a way to enact that on a very broad scale, 1:52:15.080 --> 1:52:17.559 life would be a lot better for a lot of people. Yeah, 1:52:17.640 --> 1:52:22.479 it's this, It's this dichotomy between a lot people want 1:52:22.520 --> 1:52:25.679 to own the folks they see as like being against 1:52:25.760 --> 1:52:28.080 them or being on the other side. But also people 1:52:28.160 --> 1:52:31.120 don't want to be a dick to people that like 1:52:31.320 --> 1:52:33.559 they like, you don't want to feel like you're a dick. 1:52:34.200 --> 1:52:38.200 So if you if you lean more into the weird 1:52:38.760 --> 1:52:41.560 in opposition, then you're going to trigger the well I 1:52:41.640 --> 1:52:44.160 wanna I want to make the person who disagrees with 1:52:44.280 --> 1:52:47.000 me angry side of the brain. But if you can 1:52:47.080 --> 1:52:49.880 lean into the like, hey, like we can get along, 1:52:50.040 --> 1:52:52.479 like and I and and maybe you don't want to 1:52:52.520 --> 1:52:55.080 feel like an asshole if we get along, then I 1:52:55.120 --> 1:52:58.600 don't know, that's a productive place to to continue conversations 1:52:58.640 --> 1:53:00.880 from and a good way to shift people. And then 1:53:00.920 --> 1:53:03.240 when you're then when your area floods because of severe 1:53:03.520 --> 1:53:07.200 rain and storms, that we have people that can help. Yeah, 1:53:07.520 --> 1:53:11.640 it's the importance of interacting with people in person, like offline, 1:53:11.880 --> 1:53:13.760 which is like obviously more difficult to do because we're 1:53:13.800 --> 1:53:17.400 still tried to depend. Yeah, they're like their caveat, caveat caveat, 1:53:17.479 --> 1:53:20.920 but like it's so much easier to talk to someone 1:53:21.000 --> 1:53:23.439 and kind of like see the world you shift or 1:53:23.439 --> 1:53:26.600 even just humanize yourself to someone who is inclined to 1:53:26.680 --> 1:53:29.519 not thinking of you as someone worth talking to. Like, yeah, 1:53:29.720 --> 1:53:31.519 as long as it's not you're not putting yourself in danger, 1:53:31.640 --> 1:53:35.360 like there's yeah, obviously I'm a blond lady, you know. 1:53:35.520 --> 1:53:39.080 But yeah, still we're not talking about like, oh, you 1:53:39.200 --> 1:53:41.160 have to go be friendly to people who want to 1:53:41.240 --> 1:53:44.880 murder you because your trance. No, it's about No, we're 1:53:44.920 --> 1:53:47.439 not saying that. But most of these people don't think that. 1:53:47.520 --> 1:53:51.000 Maybe they have some regressive attitude or or they'll use 1:53:51.040 --> 1:53:53.400 the word gay to mean something, you know, not cool, 1:53:53.400 --> 1:53:55.240 and you'd be like, hey, you don't have to be like, hey, 1:53:55.640 --> 1:53:58.760 you know, I'm you know, I'm actually gay jan or 1:53:58.840 --> 1:54:00.840 maybe don't hope with that. Maybe you depending on the situation, 1:54:00.920 --> 1:54:03.040 to be like yeah, maybe maybe there's other words that 1:54:03.080 --> 1:54:05.880 we can use for this, because yeah whatever, Yeah, And 1:54:06.320 --> 1:54:11.640 and you can shift people into a closer alliance, um, 1:54:11.920 --> 1:54:14.920 just by becoming a human in their eyes and also 1:54:15.040 --> 1:54:18.479 letting them become a human in your eyes, um, which 1:54:18.560 --> 1:54:21.680 is necessary. The other option is not a pleasant one. 1:54:21.760 --> 1:54:25.040 So I would prefer the option where more people grow 1:54:25.120 --> 1:54:27.920 to see each other as human and worth supporting. Right, 1:54:27.960 --> 1:54:30.400 I know there is better tactic to me. Yeah, I 1:54:30.479 --> 1:54:32.520 know there's this argument where like no one is like 1:54:32.840 --> 1:54:35.240 I shouldn't have to educate you. I shouldn't have to 1:54:35.720 --> 1:54:38.240 put the time into to shift you, and like that 1:54:38.480 --> 1:54:40.600 is valid, that's fair, Like you shouldn't have to but 1:54:40.800 --> 1:54:45.080 ideally know, yeah, but if you want to that change 1:54:45.120 --> 1:54:47.080 to happen, it's probably not going to happen unless she 1:54:47.200 --> 1:54:49.120 puts an effort in because they're probably not gone acual. 1:54:49.120 --> 1:54:53.360 They think they're fine, And I don't know, there's a 1:54:53.360 --> 1:54:55.640 bunch of ship that you shouldn't have to do that 1:54:55.840 --> 1:54:58.360 we're also all gonna have to do Like I shouldn't 1:54:58.480 --> 1:55:00.600 we I shouldn't have to say, hey, guys, maybe we 1:55:00.640 --> 1:55:03.400 don't kill the ocean. Maybe killing the ocean is a 1:55:03.440 --> 1:55:05.560 bad idea, like I shouldn't have to No one should 1:55:05.560 --> 1:55:13.800 have to say that, but we do not please the 1:55:13.920 --> 1:55:17.000 fact that you shouldn't have to do something also doesn't 1:55:17.040 --> 1:55:19.000 mean that like the thing doesn't need to be done. 1:55:19.000 --> 1:55:21.840 And obviously I don't think that the primary onus on 1:55:22.600 --> 1:55:27.960 speaking to let's say, the kind of increasingly radicalized white, 1:55:28.120 --> 1:55:31.160 lower middle and middle class, I don't think that falls 1:55:31.240 --> 1:55:34.480 primarily on people of color, on on the LGBT community. 1:55:34.480 --> 1:55:37.880 It falls on people like you and make Kim. You know, yeah, 1:55:38.240 --> 1:55:40.320 but it's still has to be done. Like it's a 1:55:40.400 --> 1:55:43.400 thing that needs to be done. And I'm not saying, hey, 1:55:43.480 --> 1:55:46.360 you out there, who you know, left where you grew 1:55:46.440 --> 1:55:49.560 up in rural Alabama because someone was going to fucking 1:55:49.640 --> 1:55:51.600 murder you and you had to get to a place 1:55:51.680 --> 1:55:54.000 where you could not deal with that. I'm not saying 1:55:54.040 --> 1:55:57.640 you need to go rolling back to Alabama. Um, but 1:55:58.720 --> 1:56:01.640 it's good that people are talking and working with and 1:56:01.720 --> 1:56:04.440 trying to build connections with folks out there and change 1:56:04.680 --> 1:56:07.120 the nature of kind of aspects of the culture and 1:56:07.200 --> 1:56:09.920 make things better because that needs to be done. We 1:56:10.000 --> 1:56:14.840 can't just be like, well fuck some of those people. Yeah, 1:56:14.960 --> 1:56:17.160 and we get that that is definitely easier if you 1:56:17.200 --> 1:56:19.600 are like one of the bros. If you are you know, 1:56:19.840 --> 1:56:25.120 a bigger SIS adjacent dude, that is that is of 1:56:25.160 --> 1:56:28.960 course going to make things easier. Yeah, I mean what 1:56:29.080 --> 1:56:31.560 you think about like that's kind of the text, that's 1:56:31.880 --> 1:56:33.720 the right word. But the fact that you do feel 1:56:33.760 --> 1:56:36.440 comfortable and you're you're safe and you're not under a 1:56:36.480 --> 1:56:38.720 threat in those spaces because of who you are, like 1:56:38.840 --> 1:56:40.880 as like a white SIS or even a white says 1:56:41.000 --> 1:56:44.160 lady like you like the price you pay for that 1:56:44.320 --> 1:56:46.640 is making it easier for everyone else to feel that too, 1:56:47.120 --> 1:56:50.240 Like exactly, like that's your job, other people's jobs to survive, 1:56:50.360 --> 1:56:52.440 and you can be the one that pushes the boundaries 1:56:52.480 --> 1:56:54.280 on these things. So when someone says something not great, 1:56:54.320 --> 1:56:55.760 you can kind of call them out in like a 1:56:55.880 --> 1:56:58.400 browish way, and they can respond to that a lot 1:56:58.480 --> 1:57:01.680 better than, you know, than a lot of other people 1:57:01.800 --> 1:57:04.040 who they don't know, you know, screaming at them in 1:57:04.160 --> 1:57:07.200 a no context scenario. We're like, oh, like, oh, you don't. 1:57:07.200 --> 1:57:08.840 I'm like, I'm a pretty lady. You don't want to 1:57:08.880 --> 1:57:11.680 make me upset by being rude, that's exactly, yeah, Like 1:57:11.720 --> 1:57:14.600 you shouldn't. You should see this thing as rude and 1:57:14.680 --> 1:57:17.760 not okay, like the amount of men who have apologized 1:57:17.800 --> 1:57:21.840 me down there for swearing it's so funny. Yeah, man, 1:57:22.000 --> 1:57:24.640 my dude, I live in Philadelphia, But that's cute. But 1:57:24.720 --> 1:57:27.480 if I could dis harness any of that, like chivalrous 1:57:27.640 --> 1:57:32.840 whatever patriarchal viewpoint, like, hey, apply this to being cool 1:57:32.920 --> 1:57:35.160 to my trans friends, are like not being rude to 1:57:35.200 --> 1:57:40.680 anyone else, Like sure, I'm down. Yeah, we don't take 1:57:40.760 --> 1:57:46.400 kindly to miss gendering around these parts. Yeah, for a 1:57:46.440 --> 1:57:47.760 lot of people at least, like you know, when I 1:57:47.840 --> 1:57:49.880 worked at like smaller workplaces, you know, where it's like 1:57:49.880 --> 1:57:52.560 a small business where I know the owner. Even if 1:57:52.640 --> 1:57:54.760 I mean, if some other employees want to unilize, the 1:57:54.760 --> 1:57:57.320 prospect is always kind of more weird or challenging because 1:57:57.360 --> 1:57:59.200 you know, it's a smaller business. Maybe it's like connected 1:57:59.240 --> 1:58:02.080 to like a larger you know, larger overall industry. You know, 1:58:02.160 --> 1:58:03.480 like when I was like when I when I was 1:58:03.480 --> 1:58:07.040 like a park or instructor, right, I had discussions with 1:58:07.080 --> 1:58:08.960 other with other like employees about doing you know, like 1:58:09.200 --> 1:58:11.600 a park or instructors union type thing. But but it's 1:58:11.640 --> 1:58:13.400 it's it's hard when there's there's like not many of 1:58:13.480 --> 1:58:15.280 you or like you know the owner. What would you 1:58:15.320 --> 1:58:17.440 say is like good good ways to at least get 1:58:17.560 --> 1:58:20.440 get that conversation going among other employees and then you know, 1:58:21.960 --> 1:58:25.320 like similar similar examples from other stuff for people who 1:58:25.400 --> 1:58:27.080 deal with like smaller workplaces that aren't you know, like 1:58:27.160 --> 1:58:29.320 a coworker. They're not working for the Amazon or anything. 1:58:29.360 --> 1:58:32.600 You know, it's it's more like small local stuff, right. So, 1:58:32.760 --> 1:58:36.600 like the most important basic building block of of all 1:58:36.720 --> 1:58:40.240 this is one on one conversation that's organizing, right, and 1:58:40.280 --> 1:58:41.840 even if you just work with like three or four 1:58:41.880 --> 1:58:45.320 other people and maybe unionizing and a formal structure doesn't 1:58:45.320 --> 1:58:47.160 necessarily make sense or it seems like it might be 1:58:47.200 --> 1:58:49.720 too much of a headache, you're still you know, like 1:58:49.840 --> 1:58:51.920 a group of workers coming together. It's still a union. 1:58:51.920 --> 1:58:53.400 It doesn't matter what n l r B has to 1:58:53.440 --> 1:58:56.360 say about it. And you you have shared interests and 1:58:56.440 --> 1:58:58.600 share challenges, and there's things that work you probably want 1:58:58.640 --> 1:59:01.560 to change, so even coming together and discussing that with 1:59:01.680 --> 1:59:03.880 your coworkers, like, there's no law that says you have 1:59:04.080 --> 1:59:05.400 to be in a union. If you want to get 1:59:05.440 --> 1:59:07.800 some ship done, you can march on your boss at 1:59:07.960 --> 1:59:10.200 WW style and make them and demand a meeting. You 1:59:10.240 --> 1:59:13.200 can make a petition, you can do public pressure campaigns 1:59:13.280 --> 1:59:15.240 like all of the things, not all of them, but 1:59:15.360 --> 1:59:17.560 a lot of the tools that we see organized labor 1:59:17.960 --> 1:59:21.280 engaging in and unions engaging in those are those are 1:59:22.680 --> 1:59:25.360 available to everyone else too. It's easier if you're within 1:59:25.400 --> 1:59:27.680 that framework because you have that firepower behind you, and 1:59:27.760 --> 1:59:30.839 you have maybe some legal protections, but just as workers, 1:59:31.320 --> 1:59:34.000 you know, I guess it's more like the IWW solidarity 1:59:34.040 --> 1:59:36.760 uneuse a multiply where like we didn't like, we don't 1:59:36.760 --> 1:59:38.640 need to do no stink ad badges, like we're a 1:59:38.760 --> 1:59:40.920 union because we say we're a union, we're going to 1:59:41.040 --> 1:59:44.240 take control of things in our own way. Like you 1:59:44.320 --> 1:59:46.800 see this in UM. I'm trying to say, I think 1:59:47.320 --> 1:59:49.400 what's it called diversity threast there's a there's a thrift 1:59:49.440 --> 1:59:53.320 shopping I think Richmond, Virginia where workers just like they 1:59:53.360 --> 1:59:55.120 weren't being treated properly. I think it was like a 1:59:55.240 --> 1:59:57.480 like a queer community space that wasn't living up to 1:59:57.640 --> 2:00:00.440 its values due to actions by management, and so they 2:00:00.560 --> 2:00:02.520 just put a letter on the doors that we're not 2:00:02.640 --> 2:00:06.240 coming to work until you fix this. Here are clear demands, 2:00:06.440 --> 2:00:09.320 here's what we need here, you go figure it out. 2:00:09.640 --> 2:00:11.400 Like I don't think they're in a formal union, but 2:00:11.440 --> 2:00:14.760 they're acting collectively, and that's something that is totally available 2:00:15.040 --> 2:00:17.160 that to everyone as long as you're in a workplace. 2:00:17.680 --> 2:00:20.200 If you're independent contractor like me and probably some of you, 2:00:20.800 --> 2:00:23.640 that sucks and it's harder, but you can always find 2:00:23.680 --> 2:00:26.800 your people and you can always there's always options, right, 2:00:26.920 --> 2:00:28.520 Like you don't have to just join at union. You 2:00:28.520 --> 2:00:33.320 don't have to be a teamster to get shipped done. Yeah, 2:00:33.360 --> 2:00:34.880 I think you know, when you were saying that, I 2:00:34.960 --> 2:00:36.880 was going through my past experience as a place like that. 2:00:36.960 --> 2:00:38.800 I'm like, yeah, we we kind of did do some 2:00:38.920 --> 2:00:41.800 of that stuff to varying degrees of success. Sometimes it 2:00:41.880 --> 2:00:44.880 works out well, sometimes it doesn't work out so well. Um, 2:00:45.200 --> 2:00:46.920 but yeah, I mean there was definitely a while where 2:00:47.080 --> 2:00:49.240 we did that did definitely makes them make some decent 2:00:49.360 --> 2:00:53.080 changes kind of based on on that model. Yeah, it's 2:00:53.120 --> 2:00:55.400 kind of a shift of perception where like you were 2:00:55.440 --> 2:00:57.040 just doing this because this is because you're a worker, 2:00:57.080 --> 2:00:58.560 and like we need to do this. But if you 2:00:58.720 --> 2:01:00.440 just take a step back and think, but it's like 2:01:00.720 --> 2:01:03.120 this is a labor action, We're a union of workers. 2:01:03.240 --> 2:01:05.520 Like even just that little shift where it's like it's 2:01:06.080 --> 2:01:08.920 it's always us against them, but look as us as 2:01:08.920 --> 2:01:12.240 a little as a group, as a collective against this manager, 2:01:12.320 --> 2:01:15.520 against this exploitative practice. I think that has a little 2:01:15.520 --> 2:01:17.720 bit of power and a little bit of energy because 2:01:17.760 --> 2:01:20.440 your religion now and I'm still I think maybe it 2:01:20.480 --> 2:01:24.320 makes you feel a little less alone. And also and 2:01:24.440 --> 2:01:28.040 like you know, concerned activity is a legally protective regard too, 2:01:28.360 --> 2:01:30.280 so like there are some busin pieces of labor law 2:01:30.360 --> 2:01:32.480 that are useful in these situations too, if you have 2:01:33.000 --> 2:01:35.240 a nerdy friend who would like to read about them 2:01:35.280 --> 2:01:42.200 for you. All right, well I think that's going to 2:01:42.320 --> 2:01:44.280 do it for us here and it could happen here. 2:01:44.600 --> 2:01:51.360 Um until next time, remember, um, you fuck it organized? 2:01:51.920 --> 2:01:55.040 And where can people find Kim Kelly online? If we 2:01:55.080 --> 2:01:58.760 want to send angry tweets? Oh well just try me 2:01:58.880 --> 2:02:04.280 buddy at grim Kim because my college radio DJ name 2:02:04.320 --> 2:02:07.840 will never die. And uh you can if you are 2:02:07.960 --> 2:02:10.800 thus inclined, you can pre order my book. But like hell, 2:02:11.040 --> 2:02:14.960 the Untold History of American Labor on the internet hopefully 2:02:15.000 --> 2:02:18.640 not Amazon, hopefully not. Yeah. I mean if you do, like, 2:02:18.720 --> 2:02:21.880 thank you, But there's other places that are better. You 2:02:22.120 --> 2:02:23.440 Do you want people to send you a bunch of 2:02:23.560 --> 2:02:28.000 random knives Kim knives? I mean I wouldn't. We've had 2:02:28.000 --> 2:02:30.000 a lot of luck with that in the past. I 2:02:30.160 --> 2:02:33.280 like nice that, like skincare, I like loose leaf tea. 2:02:33.680 --> 2:02:37.320 I contain multitudes. Really, send Kim a loose leaf t 2:02:37.520 --> 2:02:42.120 skincare knife, one of those one of those exfoliating knives 2:02:42.240 --> 2:02:45.120 with a with a t infuser in the in the hilt. 2:02:46.200 --> 2:02:49.040 Somebody make that great. Sounds like that, sounds like the 2:02:49.080 --> 2:02:53.240 next behind the Bastards merch. Yeah, the t Knife. Yeah, well, 2:02:53.320 --> 2:02:55.400 we'll put that out after we get finished where We've 2:02:55.440 --> 2:02:58.160 got a very exciting Black Friday product this year, which 2:02:58.280 --> 2:03:04.200 is a male to mail uh an adapter. People say 2:03:04.240 --> 2:03:06.600 you shouldn't do it, They say it causes electrocution and 2:03:06.680 --> 2:03:08.640 fires and death, And I think those people are cuts 2:03:09.120 --> 2:03:12.360 um by our mail to mail adapter show the the 2:03:12.480 --> 2:03:30.200 woke establishment that you won't be you won't be changed. Hey, everybody, 2:03:30.360 --> 2:03:32.320 Robert Evans here, this is it could happen here to 2:03:32.400 --> 2:03:34.800 show about how things are falling apart and how maybe 2:03:34.920 --> 2:03:39.200 they could be made a bit better. Right now, today 2:03:39.440 --> 2:03:43.000 we're doing an episode that is based on a I 2:03:43.040 --> 2:03:46.280 don't know essay Garrison wrote and I edited that we 2:03:46.360 --> 2:03:50.680 think you'll find interesting. So here it goes. Green capitalism 2:03:50.720 --> 2:03:53.840 promises to deliver us all the same luxuries and commodities 2:03:53.880 --> 2:03:56.320 that we enjoy today, but without doing net harm to 2:03:56.400 --> 2:03:59.880 the biosphere. It's the message liberal elites try to hold 2:04:00.080 --> 2:04:02.520 on when they make their case for being better stewards 2:04:02.560 --> 2:04:06.440 of the environment than Republicans. This is not untrue, but 2:04:06.560 --> 2:04:09.040 it's also not true enough to stop your house from 2:04:09.080 --> 2:04:11.960 flooding or your town from being incinerated in a hell storm. 2:04:12.720 --> 2:04:16.200 When it comes to the methods green capitalism posits by 2:04:16.240 --> 2:04:19.160 which we might reverse course without changing the direction of 2:04:19.240 --> 2:04:23.040 the ship, one term you'll here often is energy efficiency. 2:04:23.560 --> 2:04:25.560 I want to read a statement I found on white 2:04:25.600 --> 2:04:28.440 House dot gov, a fact sheet on the new US 2:04:28.560 --> 2:04:31.760 government commitment to reduce carbon emissions by fifty to fifty 2:04:33.800 --> 2:04:36.880 I should note that's fifty of the two thousand five levels, 2:04:36.920 --> 2:04:39.920 which were like fiftcent high or something like that. Anyway, 2:04:40.200 --> 2:04:43.640 here's the quote. The United States can create good paying 2:04:43.720 --> 2:04:46.600 jobs and cut emissions and energy costs for families by 2:04:46.640 --> 2:04:50.400 supporting efficiency upgrades and electrification and buildings. Through support for 2:04:50.560 --> 2:04:55.000 job creating retrofit programs and sustainable affordable housing, wider use 2:04:55.040 --> 2:04:57.920 of heat pumps and induction stoves, adoption of modern energy 2:04:57.960 --> 2:05:00.720 codes for new buildings. The United it States will also 2:05:00.800 --> 2:05:04.160 invest in new technologies to reduce emissions associated with construction, 2:05:04.280 --> 2:05:09.720 including for high performance electrified buildings. Now, energy efficiency is 2:05:09.760 --> 2:05:12.400 in fact a fine goal, and trying to reduce emissions 2:05:12.480 --> 2:05:15.640 is broadly good. But the sad and kind of weird 2:05:15.760 --> 2:05:19.720 fact is that increasing efficiency can sometimes mean increasing pollution 2:05:20.000 --> 2:05:23.120 through what's known as the efficiency paradox, which is of 2:05:23.200 --> 2:05:26.040 course the title of the episode, because what you want 2:05:26.120 --> 2:05:28.200 you want us to think of a second title, of 2:05:28.240 --> 2:05:31.560 a separate title from that. Come on. So, first off, 2:05:32.120 --> 2:05:36.520 what does energy efficiency mean? In general terms? Energy efficiency 2:05:36.600 --> 2:05:38.919 refers to the amount of output that can be produced 2:05:39.000 --> 2:05:42.320 with a given input of energy. Output being stuff that 2:05:42.520 --> 2:05:44.760 energy is used to do, like like your house, or 2:05:44.840 --> 2:05:48.960 wash your clothing, or power your wall mounted twenty volt 2:05:49.120 --> 2:05:52.120 vibrator that requires as much electricity as an arc welder 2:05:52.160 --> 2:05:55.520 in order to use. Energy savings are the reduction of 2:05:55.640 --> 2:05:59.040 energy use without the loss of output produced. Improved energy 2:05:59.080 --> 2:06:02.080 efficiency is exped to bring a number of benefits. First 2:06:02.120 --> 2:06:06.440 of all, reducing energy usage should result in lower energy bills. Ideally, 2:06:06.560 --> 2:06:10.360 reduced energy demand also means that energy imports can be decreased. 2:06:10.760 --> 2:06:14.760 The International Energy Agency has estimated that strict efficiency policies 2:06:14.800 --> 2:06:17.600 could allow the world to achieve more than forty of 2:06:17.680 --> 2:06:20.880 the greenhouse gas emissions cuts needed to reach its climate 2:06:20.960 --> 2:06:24.920 goals even without new technology. So there is considerable wiggle 2:06:25.000 --> 2:06:28.400 room within the existing structures of global society to reduce 2:06:28.440 --> 2:06:33.800 emissions a lot without fancy space technology but despite substantial 2:06:33.920 --> 2:06:36.720 energy efficiency gains in the past few decades and decreases 2:06:36.720 --> 2:06:39.520 an output from places like the United States, we as 2:06:39.560 --> 2:06:42.520 a species are using more energy than we have pretty 2:06:42.600 --> 2:06:46.240 much forever, and emissions wildly surpass are or the Earth's 2:06:46.240 --> 2:06:50.200 ability to handle them. Quoting from the Global Carbon Project quote, 2:06:50.520 --> 2:06:54.760 global energy growth is outpacing decarbonization. Despite positive progress in 2:06:54.800 --> 2:06:57.440 twenty countries whose economies have grown over the last decade 2:06:57.480 --> 2:07:00.560 and their emissions have declined, growth and energy from fossil 2:07:00.600 --> 2:07:03.280 fuel sources is still outpacing the rise of low carbon 2:07:03.360 --> 2:07:07.440 sources and activities. A robust global economy in sufficient emission 2:07:07.560 --> 2:07:10.560 reductions and developed countries in a need for increased energy 2:07:10.680 --> 2:07:13.600 use in developing countries where per capita emissions remain far 2:07:13.680 --> 2:07:16.480 below those of wealthier nations, will continue to put upward 2:07:16.520 --> 2:07:19.959 pressure on CEO two emissions. They use the term developing 2:07:20.240 --> 2:07:24.760 UM and developed We don't prefer those. But obviously population 2:07:24.800 --> 2:07:27.560 growth contributes to all that, the growth and the use 2:07:27.640 --> 2:07:31.000 of energy and the emissions of carbon um. You know, 2:07:31.120 --> 2:07:33.080 more people, more cars in the road, whatever, But it's 2:07:33.120 --> 2:07:36.680 not really the primary factor that's adding onto the increase 2:07:36.720 --> 2:07:39.120 in energy use for the human race. We'll talk about 2:07:39.160 --> 2:07:41.520 that later, though for now, it's important to note that 2:07:41.920 --> 2:07:44.800 the full potential energy savings, like in these kind of 2:07:44.880 --> 2:07:47.720 hypotheticals about how much could be saved by improving efficiency, 2:07:47.840 --> 2:07:51.200 are usually estimated by assuming that demand for energy services 2:07:51.280 --> 2:07:55.000 will remain unchanged after energy efficiency gains. So when they 2:07:55.080 --> 2:07:59.080 say that we can get the greenhouse emissions, gases gas 2:07:59.160 --> 2:08:03.440 reductions we need by increasing efficiency, they're doing that assuming 2:08:03.480 --> 2:08:06.160 that nothing will change about our overall energy use when 2:08:06.200 --> 2:08:09.520 we make things more efficient. But time and time again 2:08:09.600 --> 2:08:11.960 we see that once products are made more energy efficient, 2:08:12.240 --> 2:08:15.560 people often end up consuming, producing, or even using more 2:08:15.640 --> 2:08:19.200 of the thing, which makes the potential savings less meaningful 2:08:19.280 --> 2:08:21.400 in a net result. Doesn't mean that it's not a 2:08:21.480 --> 2:08:23.480 net good, but it's not as much as is often 2:08:23.520 --> 2:08:27.360 calculated in these climate proposals. You can see this demonstrated 2:08:27.400 --> 2:08:30.240 on the job. If you're in say food services, if 2:08:30.280 --> 2:08:32.200 you happen to figure out how to do a task faster, 2:08:32.440 --> 2:08:34.800 your boss probably isn't gonna let you use that extra 2:08:34.880 --> 2:08:37.880 time to just chill out and do stuff on your phone. Um. 2:08:38.120 --> 2:08:40.960 What is the phrase, if you can lean, you can clean? Um? 2:08:41.120 --> 2:08:44.040 So if you do something faster, now, You're just expected 2:08:44.080 --> 2:08:46.640 to do it faster all the time and output more 2:08:46.720 --> 2:08:49.880 total work for your boss. This is the paradox of efficiency, 2:08:49.960 --> 2:08:52.520 and it applies to energy as well. On a societal level, 2:08:52.880 --> 2:08:56.200 Increased energy efficiency is a double edged sword, having the 2:08:56.240 --> 2:08:59.800 potential to help cut emissions by a significant factor um 2:09:00.040 --> 2:09:02.640 and having the potential to increase our total energy use 2:09:02.720 --> 2:09:05.360 depending on what is made more efficient and how people 2:09:05.440 --> 2:09:08.880 react to it. The idea that energy efficiency improvements can 2:09:08.920 --> 2:09:11.800 actually lead to more overall energy use goes all the 2:09:11.840 --> 2:09:14.680 way back to the start of the Industrial Revolution. In 2:09:14.800 --> 2:09:18.560 eighteen sixty five, economist William Stanley Jeevens published a book 2:09:18.680 --> 2:09:21.879 called The Coal Question, in which he argued that innovation 2:09:22.000 --> 2:09:24.640 and efficiency, particularly in the case of the coal powered 2:09:24.680 --> 2:09:28.200 steam engine, would actually increase the overall consumption of coal, 2:09:28.400 --> 2:09:30.840 rather than reducing it as it had been intended to do. 2:09:31.600 --> 2:09:34.640 His prediction that efficiency improvements on steam engines would lead 2:09:34.680 --> 2:09:39.200 to massive economic expansion accelerating coal consumption was very much correct. 2:09:39.680 --> 2:09:43.360 This idea, then dubbed the Jeevens paradox, is still very 2:09:43.440 --> 2:09:47.040 much worth considering when we discuss efficiency gains and policies 2:09:47.080 --> 2:09:50.160 that are meant to reduce energy consumption and thereby fight 2:09:50.240 --> 2:09:53.840 climate change. In modern terms, we described the process by 2:09:53.880 --> 2:09:57.360 which potential energy savings can be cut by greater use 2:09:57.520 --> 2:10:00.760 of the energy efficient product as the re bound effect. 2:10:01.280 --> 2:10:04.040 There are two different kinds of rebound effects observed, the 2:10:04.120 --> 2:10:06.920 most obvious of which is dubbed the direct rebound effect. 2:10:07.440 --> 2:10:10.880 Direct rebounds are observed when improvements and energy efficiency for 2:10:10.960 --> 2:10:14.800 a particular energy service reduces the effective price of that 2:10:14.960 --> 2:10:18.360 service and thus provides incentives to increase its demand. This 2:10:18.520 --> 2:10:21.800 leads to the overall increased efficiency, not equaling to a 2:10:21.880 --> 2:10:25.680 reduction energy use as as you might think. Direct rebounds 2:10:25.720 --> 2:10:28.720 are observed when improvements and energy efficiency for a particular 2:10:28.840 --> 2:10:31.720 energy service reduces the effective price of that enough that 2:10:31.800 --> 2:10:35.480 it provides incentives to increase its demand. You may upgrade 2:10:35.520 --> 2:10:38.000 to a more energy efficient appliance, but because of the 2:10:38.080 --> 2:10:40.680 lower energy costs, you'll use the appliance more often and 2:10:40.800 --> 2:10:44.160 thus use more total energy. Or in some cases, energy 2:10:44.240 --> 2:10:47.240 efficiency gains are cut by the fact that more efficient 2:10:47.280 --> 2:10:51.240 products allow people to use more of that product. For example, 2:10:51.360 --> 2:10:54.800 someone may get a more efficient fridge that's also much larger, 2:10:55.120 --> 2:10:57.720 and so even though it cools more efficiently, it's also 2:10:57.840 --> 2:11:02.560 consuming overall, more energy, transportation has a lot of direct rebounds. 2:11:02.640 --> 2:11:06.320 Despite massive fuel efficiency gains in recent years, transportation is 2:11:06.360 --> 2:11:11.600 still responsible for twent of global greenhouse gas emissions. Transportations 2:11:11.640 --> 2:11:15.000 contribution to global warming is quickly increasing, with travel producing 2:11:15.120 --> 2:11:19.200 greater and greater percentages of the planet's carbon footprint. Private 2:11:19.240 --> 2:11:22.560 automobile tailpipes will drive this phenomenon for the foreseeable future, 2:11:22.680 --> 2:11:24.720 as the number of active vehicles on the road is 2:11:24.760 --> 2:11:27.040 projected to grow from seven hundred million in the year 2:11:27.120 --> 2:11:31.040 two thousand to two billion byt So, even though cars 2:11:31.040 --> 2:11:34.000 are a lot more efficient, vastly more cars are being used. 2:11:34.040 --> 2:11:37.160 And of course that's not entirely. It doesn't mean that, like, 2:11:37.360 --> 2:11:39.720 more efficient cars cause people to buy more cars, but 2:11:39.800 --> 2:11:42.200 it does make it more affordable for more people to 2:11:42.280 --> 2:11:45.080 own cars and to drive them further, which drives up, 2:11:45.240 --> 2:11:48.600 you know, fuel use and drives up emissions. And you 2:11:48.680 --> 2:11:51.120 see how the whole problem works. And it's not just cars. 2:11:51.200 --> 2:11:54.080 When planes became more fuel efficient, ticket prices decrease and 2:11:54.160 --> 2:11:57.040 more people started to travel by plane. As cost per 2:11:57.120 --> 2:12:00.000 mile dropped, more miles were flown. The fact that airplane 2:12:00.040 --> 2:12:02.920 has got more fuel efficient didn't reduce general pollution by 2:12:03.000 --> 2:12:06.160 the air travel industry quite to the contrary. In fact, 2:12:06.320 --> 2:12:09.160 the decreased emissions led to an increase in air travel, 2:12:09.400 --> 2:12:11.440 which shot a hell of a lot more poison out 2:12:11.480 --> 2:12:13.800 into the sky and also gave us eat pray love. 2:12:13.920 --> 2:12:17.680 So the other kinds of rebounds are indirect rebound effects. 2:12:18.000 --> 2:12:21.360 This refers to when energy efficiency leads to monetary savings 2:12:21.440 --> 2:12:24.200 for a producer or consumer, who then can spend those 2:12:24.240 --> 2:12:27.160 extra savings on other carbon emitting goods and services that 2:12:27.240 --> 2:12:30.400 otherwise they couldn't afford. For example, you buy a more 2:12:30.440 --> 2:12:32.680 fuel efficient car, you save money on fuel, and you 2:12:32.720 --> 2:12:34.560 went up with extra funds in your bank account that 2:12:34.600 --> 2:12:36.400 you can use on a vacation, and maybe you take 2:12:36.440 --> 2:12:38.560 a flight on that vacation. So in the end, you 2:12:38.640 --> 2:12:40.760 emit more c O two despite the fact that you're 2:12:40.760 --> 2:12:43.280 emitting less c O two through your car. You've got 2:12:43.360 --> 2:12:45.320 five bucks extra in the bank and you fly to 2:12:45.360 --> 2:12:48.920 Mexico on it. Right, that's an indirect rebound effect. So 2:12:49.160 --> 2:12:51.480 even if a product is replaced by a more efficient 2:12:51.560 --> 2:12:54.480 one with similar spects, lower energy bills can mean that 2:12:54.560 --> 2:12:57.000 more consumers will have more money to spend on goods 2:12:57.040 --> 2:13:00.040 and services. This is generally seen as desirable from a 2:13:00.160 --> 2:13:03.800 social and economic standpoint, and probably from an individual standpoint. 2:13:03.840 --> 2:13:07.120 Having more money is always useful UM, but it involves 2:13:07.160 --> 2:13:10.760 additional energy consumption means that you're consuming more, you're emitting 2:13:10.840 --> 2:13:14.200 more UM, and so the savings and whatnot have it 2:13:14.280 --> 2:13:16.360 actually led to a savings in terms of you know, 2:13:16.480 --> 2:13:19.880 from an environmental perspective. An analysis of EU data shows 2:13:19.920 --> 2:13:22.840 that out of twenty nine EU countries, eleven experienced rebound 2:13:22.880 --> 2:13:25.920 effects of over fifty, which means more than half of 2:13:26.000 --> 2:13:30.040 the gains in energy efficiency were consumed by increases in 2:13:30.560 --> 2:13:34.160 energy use. Six of those countries, including Denmark in Finland, 2:13:34.320 --> 2:13:38.120 reached over rebound effects. This is called a backfire, and 2:13:38.200 --> 2:13:41.200 it means that in those six countries, extra energy spending 2:13:41.400 --> 2:13:45.320 overtook all of the efficiency gains achieved. Air Conditioning and 2:13:45.400 --> 2:13:48.680 heating are large contributors to both direct and indirect rebounds. 2:13:48.960 --> 2:13:51.480 A rebound effect as large as sixty has been shown 2:13:51.520 --> 2:13:54.960 in increased improvements and efficiency in the residential heating sector, 2:13:55.200 --> 2:13:58.040 which is something that the White House specifically quote about 2:13:58.080 --> 2:14:01.520 in their paper. In China, long term rebound effects ranging 2:14:01.560 --> 2:14:04.240 from forty six percent to fifty six percent for residential 2:14:04.280 --> 2:14:07.480 electricity consumption in Beijing have been estimated. All of this 2:14:07.640 --> 2:14:10.400 data casts doubt on the wisdom of relying on energy 2:14:10.480 --> 2:14:14.080 efficiency policies to reduce energy demand. I'm gonna quote here 2:14:14.120 --> 2:14:17.200 from a report by the Copenhagen School of Energy Infrastructure. 2:14:17.960 --> 2:14:21.240 In recent decades, large increases in demand for energy services 2:14:21.280 --> 2:14:25.280 have globally driven energy consumption. As a counterbalance, energy efficiency 2:14:25.360 --> 2:14:28.240 has become a key energy policy mechanism to tackle higher 2:14:28.360 --> 2:14:31.680 energy consumption and emissions, and countries and regions have adopted 2:14:31.720 --> 2:14:35.120 different targets and policies to achieve energy and environmental objectives. 2:14:35.520 --> 2:14:37.760 The main goals of these policies are to minimize the 2:14:37.800 --> 2:14:40.880 dependence on fossil fuels and mitigate local air pollution and 2:14:41.000 --> 2:14:44.040 g h G emissions. This has been particularly relevant for 2:14:44.120 --> 2:14:47.120 the energy intensive sectors. The development and deployment of more 2:14:47.160 --> 2:14:50.880 efficient technologies are, along with more technology management, the main 2:14:51.040 --> 2:14:54.920 channel to achieve these environmental and energy objectives. However, energy 2:14:54.960 --> 2:14:57.560 efficiency improvements can lead to changes in the demand for 2:14:57.720 --> 2:15:02.440 energy services, changes that offsets of the expected energy savings. Consequently, 2:15:02.520 --> 2:15:06.440 forecasts of energy consumption reductions may be overstated, as evidenced 2:15:06.480 --> 2:15:09.080 by the empirical literature. Rebound effects can be a non 2:15:09.160 --> 2:15:13.120 negligible issue. Therefore, ignoring them can imply an overestimation of 2:15:13.200 --> 2:15:16.440 the benefits coming from energy efficiency improvements. This can in 2:15:16.520 --> 2:15:19.400 turn lead to decisions such as the overallocation of public 2:15:19.440 --> 2:15:23.440 funds to ineffective environmental and energy policies. Policy Makers need 2:15:23.520 --> 2:15:26.960 to take rebound effects into account for air quality, energy security, 2:15:27.000 --> 2:15:30.240 and climate change policy reasons. A rebound effect different from 2:15:30.360 --> 2:15:33.720 zero implies that the expected proportional reductions and emissions from 2:15:33.760 --> 2:15:37.680 fuel efficiency improvements might not be achieved. Therefore, the policy 2:15:37.720 --> 2:15:40.600 goals to reach specific levels of emissions through fuel efficiency 2:15:40.720 --> 2:15:44.360 enhancements may need to be adjusted accordingly. Again, we have 2:15:44.440 --> 2:15:47.320 nothing against the idea of making more efficient devices. The 2:15:47.400 --> 2:15:50.480 point is that energy efficiency can't be pursued in a vacuum. 2:15:50.720 --> 2:15:53.240 It has to coincide with changes to a less extract 2:15:53.320 --> 2:15:57.040 of cancerous mindset regarding the Earth's resources and carrying capacity. 2:15:57.480 --> 2:15:59.800 Just telling someone you can drive more for less money, 2:16:00.320 --> 2:16:02.400 or you can afford to keep your TV on all 2:16:02.440 --> 2:16:05.880 the time doesn't really help anything. My fear is that 2:16:06.000 --> 2:16:09.440 governments and corporations the neoliberal leviathan, as we've come to 2:16:09.520 --> 2:16:12.640 call it on this show, will focus almost overwhelmingly on 2:16:12.800 --> 2:16:16.320 energy efficiency to maintain economic growth and obscure the overall 2:16:16.440 --> 2:16:20.040 lack of action on stopping carbon emissions. Think Joe Biden 2:16:20.120 --> 2:16:23.360 doing donuts in an electric jeep through such a lens 2:16:23.440 --> 2:16:26.440 as the Biden administration. Energy efficiency is a foil to 2:16:26.520 --> 2:16:29.680 climate change is a charade being used to keep relentless 2:16:29.720 --> 2:16:32.560 economic growth. Feud is a net good. It plays into 2:16:32.600 --> 2:16:34.600 the myth that will be able to mitigate, adapt, and 2:16:34.680 --> 2:16:37.000 survive the effects of climate change with little to no 2:16:37.200 --> 2:16:39.960 change to our current lifestyles. What we need to do 2:16:40.200 --> 2:16:43.560 is decouple human well being from energy consumption and consumption 2:16:43.600 --> 2:16:47.200 in general to effectively combat climate change. This needs to 2:16:47.280 --> 2:16:50.440 happen at such a scale that advocating for individual changes 2:16:50.480 --> 2:16:53.240 in lifestyle will never be enough, but that is still 2:16:53.280 --> 2:16:55.960 a significant part of the puzzle. The trick comes and 2:16:56.000 --> 2:16:58.080 getting people to accept the fact that their life will 2:16:58.120 --> 2:17:00.640 need to change without them telling them and buying this 2:17:00.760 --> 2:17:02.760 product instead of that product is how you do it. 2:17:03.520 --> 2:17:06.320 That said, populations of people can and do change their 2:17:06.320 --> 2:17:10.360 behaviors in pretty profound ways. In nineteen fifty, abortion was 2:17:10.480 --> 2:17:13.120 not at all an issue for the religious right. Resistance 2:17:13.160 --> 2:17:16.160 to abortion might make some Protestants distrust you because that 2:17:16.280 --> 2:17:19.080 was seen as a Catholic concern. Now abortion is the 2:17:19.120 --> 2:17:22.360 defining political issue of the ascendant right. Their promise to 2:17:22.440 --> 2:17:25.120 destroy it is the rock upon which their titanic power 2:17:25.280 --> 2:17:28.720 is based. In a less calamitous sense, since two thousand seven, 2:17:28.800 --> 2:17:31.160 we've gone from a time in which smartphones were expensive 2:17:31.200 --> 2:17:33.640 trash for rich people to buy, to today when they're 2:17:33.640 --> 2:17:36.120 expensive trash that every human being who can afford to 2:17:36.240 --> 2:17:38.760 has to carry at all times because they're so utterly 2:17:38.840 --> 2:17:42.360 integrated to our daily life. So yes, people can change. 2:17:42.959 --> 2:17:45.400 A bigger challenge, though, will be to change the mindset 2:17:45.520 --> 2:17:49.200 of industry, which is not entirely or even often driven 2:17:49.280 --> 2:17:51.960 by consumer demand. As we've seen with the release of 2:17:52.040 --> 2:17:54.800 papers proving Chevron and other oil and gas companies knew 2:17:54.800 --> 2:17:57.680 about and deliberately hid research on climate change for decades. 2:17:58.080 --> 2:18:00.640 Big capital will put its thumb on the scale every 2:18:00.680 --> 2:18:03.320 step of the way. In other words, if you come 2:18:03.360 --> 2:18:06.840 at the behemoth that is the integrated industrial economy, you'd 2:18:06.879 --> 2:18:10.240 best come correct. How do we do that? Well, if 2:18:10.240 --> 2:18:12.880 anybody really knew, they would have, you know, done it 2:18:13.000 --> 2:18:16.400 by now. The human infrastructure of extract of capitalism is 2:18:16.480 --> 2:18:19.080 deep and vast and tightly woven into the structure of 2:18:19.200 --> 2:18:22.760 every government with any real power. So, with the full 2:18:22.879 --> 2:18:25.600 understanding and admission that we aren't claiming to have solutions 2:18:25.640 --> 2:18:28.560 to that problem, let's talk about something that will at 2:18:28.640 --> 2:18:31.480 least be part of any real solution to the problem. 2:18:31.879 --> 2:18:34.480 D growth. This is a term will explain in more 2:18:34.520 --> 2:18:37.080 detail later, but we mean it's simply as a holistic 2:18:37.120 --> 2:18:41.560 approach to encouraging reduction and energy consumption and global environmental justice. 2:18:42.240 --> 2:18:45.440 A paper on the Jeevens paradox and the Link between Innovation, 2:18:45.520 --> 2:18:49.279 efficiency and sustainability for the Frontiers and Energy Research concluded 2:18:49.360 --> 2:18:53.480 quote the Jevens paradox and tales that sustainability problems cannot 2:18:53.520 --> 2:18:57.000 be solved by technological innovations alone. They must be solved 2:18:57.040 --> 2:19:01.400 through institutional and behavioral changes. While there are still differences 2:19:01.440 --> 2:19:04.039 of opinion about the scale every bound effects and ongoing 2:19:04.120 --> 2:19:06.600 arguments about the macro and micro and longer and shorter 2:19:06.720 --> 2:19:10.279 term consequences of efficiency, our interest in this topic today 2:19:10.400 --> 2:19:12.879 is driven by the goal of improving how we use 2:19:13.040 --> 2:19:17.760 energy rather than totally overhauling or abandoning efficiency. One example 2:19:17.800 --> 2:19:20.400 would be the current fight in Europe over smartphone chargers. 2:19:20.800 --> 2:19:23.320 Most of the rest of the smartphone industry worldwide has 2:19:23.360 --> 2:19:26.360 jumped onto USBC. Is the right kind of port for charging, 2:19:26.440 --> 2:19:30.280 etcetera with your device. Before this point, those of you 2:19:30.360 --> 2:19:32.280 have been using smartphones for a decade or we'll remember, 2:19:32.400 --> 2:19:34.680 there were tons of different charges and thus a tons 2:19:34.680 --> 2:19:36.240 of different waste. Every phone had to come with a 2:19:36.320 --> 2:19:38.000 new charger. A lot of them wound up in the 2:19:38.040 --> 2:19:42.560 trash that has been reduced by everyone jumping onto USBC. 2:19:42.840 --> 2:19:45.560 But Apple continues to use their own special charger, and 2:19:45.600 --> 2:19:47.640 now the EU was promising to make a law to 2:19:47.800 --> 2:19:51.440 mandate USBC for charging new phones in an attempt to 2:19:51.480 --> 2:19:54.960 reduce waste. This isn't again a bad thing, but if 2:19:55.000 --> 2:19:58.760 someone's really concerned with waste among the smartphone industry, planned 2:19:58.760 --> 2:20:02.920 obsolescence is the thing to go after. Now. Targeting planned 2:20:02.920 --> 2:20:05.520 obsolescence stopping it includes a number of things, and for 2:20:05.640 --> 2:20:07.560 one thing, you have to fight for the right to 2:20:07.680 --> 2:20:10.840 repair devices, which is something that a number of corporations, 2:20:10.879 --> 2:20:13.000 not just in the smartphone industry, have lobbied to in 2:20:13.080 --> 2:20:17.480 some cases make illegal. More than that, it's stopping somehow 2:20:17.560 --> 2:20:20.200 these companies from making the conscious decision to brick old 2:20:20.280 --> 2:20:23.280 technology to increase profits, and that aspect of it is 2:20:23.360 --> 2:20:26.000 the bigger enemy than even the right to repair. As 2:20:26.080 --> 2:20:28.920 electronic device has become common and more sectors of daily 2:20:29.000 --> 2:20:31.760 life via the Internet of Things, the overall share of 2:20:31.840 --> 2:20:34.520 global energy use that goes to making new versions of 2:20:34.600 --> 2:20:37.400 old products that could still be working but are designed 2:20:37.440 --> 2:20:41.240 to break is is really quite depressing. For one example 2:20:41.280 --> 2:20:43.080 of how large it must be, I haven't found any 2:20:43.480 --> 2:20:46.680 solid information on the total size of this industry things 2:20:46.720 --> 2:20:48.879 that you have to repeatedly re buy because they're meant 2:20:48.920 --> 2:20:51.680 to break, But the mobile phone industry and two thousand 2:20:51.760 --> 2:20:54.920 nineteen alone was four point six percent of global GDP, 2:20:55.400 --> 2:20:58.920 So that's close to five percent of global GDP just 2:20:59.240 --> 2:21:01.440 from making owns that are designed to break so you 2:21:01.560 --> 2:21:04.080 have to buy a new phone. This is an example 2:21:04.120 --> 2:21:06.640 of an area in which people's perspectives have to be changed. 2:21:06.720 --> 2:21:09.120 And I think actually that digital fatigue, the fact that 2:21:09.160 --> 2:21:12.200 we're also fucking exhausted with these devices these days, may 2:21:12.280 --> 2:21:15.080 provide somewhat of an inroad for convincing people that they 2:21:15.160 --> 2:21:18.640 need to buy new gadgets less often. But because these 2:21:18.680 --> 2:21:21.959 gadgets are so crucial to daily life, the industry actually 2:21:22.040 --> 2:21:24.520 also has to be forced to change. And again, rite 2:21:24.560 --> 2:21:27.000 repair is one part of this, but that doesn't stop 2:21:27.040 --> 2:21:29.720 Apple from just deciding to throttle their old devices whenever 2:21:29.760 --> 2:21:31.680 they need to add a new layer to the money pile. 2:21:32.640 --> 2:21:34.960 Our overall point with all this is that solutions to 2:21:35.000 --> 2:21:37.360 climate change have to be cultural and not just based 2:21:37.440 --> 2:21:39.600 in some version of will invent a better version and 2:21:39.680 --> 2:21:42.640 that will solve the problem. Hybrid gas burning cars and 2:21:42.760 --> 2:21:46.119 standardized charging chords are nibbling around the edges of the problem. 2:21:46.640 --> 2:21:50.080 Relying on technological advances pacifies us in the present, and 2:21:50.120 --> 2:21:53.800 it reinforces the need for certain types of human material codependence, 2:21:54.120 --> 2:21:56.800 and that kind of codependence leads to increased dependency and 2:21:56.959 --> 2:21:59.680 more extraction. By no means am I trying to say 2:21:59.720 --> 2:22:02.200 that innovation is bad. I love gadgets as much as 2:22:02.200 --> 2:22:05.520 the next person. Innovation also has the capacity to heavily 2:22:05.600 --> 2:22:09.200 decreased resource extraction. It just has to be tailored with 2:22:09.320 --> 2:22:12.119 something more than just will make this device more efficient 2:22:12.160 --> 2:22:14.440 so we can use it more or sell more of them. 2:22:14.959 --> 2:22:18.200 The capitalist mode of mass resource extraction and grind for 2:22:18.320 --> 2:22:21.080 efficiency are intertwined, and if we are to limit the 2:22:21.120 --> 2:22:24.320 most catastrophic effects of climate change. We as a culture 2:22:24.400 --> 2:22:27.240 need to rethink how we view efficiency and energy use. 2:22:28.160 --> 2:22:30.720 For the past few hundred years, economic growth has been 2:22:30.760 --> 2:22:33.480 the road that has led to our current ecological dilemma. 2:22:33.840 --> 2:22:36.800 The fantasy of switching over to nuclear and renewable energy 2:22:36.879 --> 2:22:40.000 with a perfectly efficient electric grid to just sidestep climate 2:22:40.040 --> 2:22:43.600 collapse is it's a fantasy. We missed our chance to 2:22:43.720 --> 2:22:46.920 do that. Even if we stop all carbon emissions right now, 2:22:47.160 --> 2:22:50.000 all of them, the carbon already in the atmosphere would 2:22:50.000 --> 2:22:52.840 push us past two degrees celsius of warming in about 2:22:52.920 --> 2:22:56.800 fifty years. So what besides carbon capture can we do 2:22:56.920 --> 2:22:59.720 about this? We as in both you, the regular listener, 2:22:59.800 --> 2:23:02.720 and the goals with power and real influence. Well. The 2:23:02.760 --> 2:23:06.000 two thousand eighteen International Panel and Climate Change Special WORKPORT 2:23:06.080 --> 2:23:10.119 indicated that in the absence of speculative negative emissions technologies, 2:23:10.520 --> 2:23:13.480 the only feasible way to remain within safe carbon budgets 2:23:13.800 --> 2:23:16.880 was for high incombinations to actively slow down the pace 2:23:16.959 --> 2:23:21.240 of material production and consumption. D growth is the planned 2:23:21.280 --> 2:23:24.760 reduction of energy use, corporate profits over production, and excess 2:23:24.800 --> 2:23:27.960 consumption designed to bring the economy back into balance with 2:23:28.040 --> 2:23:30.840 the living world in a way that reduces inequality while 2:23:30.840 --> 2:23:34.480 focusing on human and ecological well being. This isn't just 2:23:34.560 --> 2:23:36.880 some sort of utopian Marxist thinking, and in fact, a 2:23:36.959 --> 2:23:39.560 lot of Marxists have critiques of deep growth, and deep 2:23:39.600 --> 2:23:41.920 growth could be applied to a number of different economic 2:23:42.000 --> 2:23:45.560 and governmental systems. There are even some weirdo capitalist advocates 2:23:45.600 --> 2:23:48.840 of de growth. Discussion about solving climate change can get 2:23:48.879 --> 2:23:51.840 into uncomfortable eugenics e territory if you aren't careful, So 2:23:51.959 --> 2:23:54.760 I should emphasize here that d growth is primarily about 2:23:55.040 --> 2:24:00.040 already wealthy countries limiting their economic growth. When aggregated in 2:24:00.200 --> 2:24:02.720 terms of income, the richest half of the world, high 2:24:02.760 --> 2:24:05.840 in upper middle income countries, amid eighty six percent of 2:24:05.920 --> 2:24:09.640 global CO two emissions, the bottom half lower and middle 2:24:09.680 --> 2:24:14.240 income countries amid only fourteen percent. With very few exceptions, 2:24:14.320 --> 2:24:17.160 the richer than nation is, the more it emits. It's 2:24:17.200 --> 2:24:19.920 all part of the resource extraction infinite growth lie we 2:24:20.000 --> 2:24:23.240 tell ourselves to keep going. Wealth is so much more 2:24:23.320 --> 2:24:26.680 of a factor in emissions than population. North America is 2:24:26.720 --> 2:24:29.240 home to only five percent of the world population, but 2:24:29.280 --> 2:24:32.480 amids nearly eighteen percent of c O two. Asia is 2:24:32.560 --> 2:24:35.080 home to sixty percent of the world's population, but AMIDST 2:24:35.120 --> 2:24:38.400 just forty nine percent of CO two. Africa has sixteen 2:24:38.440 --> 2:24:41.280 percent of the population, but emids just four percent of 2:24:41.320 --> 2:24:44.840 its c O two. This is reflected in per capita emissions. 2:24:45.120 --> 2:24:48.360 The average North American AMIDST seventeen times more than the 2:24:48.440 --> 2:24:52.280 average African. This inequality in global emissions lies at the 2:24:52.320 --> 2:24:55.120 heart of why international agreement on climate change has and 2:24:55.200 --> 2:24:58.320 continues to be so contentious. The richest countries in the 2:24:58.360 --> 2:25:00.680 world are home to half the world pop relation and 2:25:00.760 --> 2:25:03.360 emit eighty six percent of c O two. We want 2:25:03.400 --> 2:25:06.240 global incomes and living standards, especially for those of the 2:25:06.280 --> 2:25:09.000 poorest half of the world, to rise. The only way 2:25:09.080 --> 2:25:11.520 to do that while limiting climate change is to shrink 2:25:11.560 --> 2:25:15.800 the emissions of high income countries. Even several billion additional 2:25:15.879 --> 2:25:19.920 people in low income nations would leave global emissions almost unchanged. 2:25:20.240 --> 2:25:22.840 Three or four billion poor individuals would only account for 2:25:22.879 --> 2:25:25.240 a few percent of global c O two. At the 2:25:25.280 --> 2:25:28.280 other end of the distribution, however, adding only one billion 2:25:28.360 --> 2:25:30.959 high income individuals to the wealthiest parts of the world 2:25:31.120 --> 2:25:34.640 would increase global emissions by almost a third. A programmer 2:25:34.680 --> 2:25:36.520 in the United States has a higher c O two 2:25:36.560 --> 2:25:39.960 footprint than fifty farmers in Uganda. A decent chunk of 2:25:40.000 --> 2:25:42.680 this is just due to meet consumption. Meet consumption per 2:25:42.800 --> 2:25:46.120 capita in the richest fifteen countries is seven fifty percent 2:25:46.200 --> 2:25:49.520 higher than in the poorest twenty four countries. Lowering the 2:25:49.600 --> 2:25:53.320 population of say Uruguay won't do much for emissions. This 2:25:53.520 --> 2:25:55.720 is not the case when you talk about wealthy nations. 2:25:56.080 --> 2:25:58.360 In fact, if you live and say the United States, 2:25:58.600 --> 2:26:01.160 possibly the biggest thing you was an individual could do 2:26:01.240 --> 2:26:04.280 to reduce emissions is to have fewer or no children. 2:26:04.879 --> 2:26:08.560 It's estimated that dedicated recycling curbs about point three metric 2:26:08.600 --> 2:26:11.040 tons of c O two emissions per year, while having 2:26:11.120 --> 2:26:14.080 one fewer child is equivalent to preventing over fifty eight 2:26:14.160 --> 2:26:17.040 tons of c O two emissions a year. Better sex, said, 2:26:17.080 --> 2:26:19.920 and free access to contraceptives could also go a shockingly 2:26:20.040 --> 2:26:23.800 long way to curbing individual emission in wealthy countries, these 2:26:23.879 --> 2:26:26.320 numbers are averaged across a whole nation, and just like 2:26:26.480 --> 2:26:29.040 the case in less wealthy countries, the impact on emissions 2:26:29.080 --> 2:26:31.280 by having one fewer kid will be far lesser if 2:26:31.280 --> 2:26:33.120 your middle class or poor than it would be if 2:26:33.160 --> 2:26:36.080 your upper middle class are rich, but of course, none 2:26:36.080 --> 2:26:38.119 of that is going to be enough if industrial production 2:26:38.240 --> 2:26:41.400 keeps chugging along and advising people not to have children, 2:26:41.480 --> 2:26:44.400 one of the singular driving motivations for human beings across 2:26:44.600 --> 2:26:48.360 history isn't exactly a vote getter of a proposition. D 2:26:48.520 --> 2:26:50.640 Growth is critical, but the question of how to get 2:26:50.680 --> 2:26:53.360 there is thorny as hell. There are a few easy answers. 2:26:53.600 --> 2:26:56.640 Abolishing planned obsolescence could be pretty easily pitched to the 2:26:56.720 --> 2:26:59.240 average person. Cutting down on the number of people who 2:26:59.280 --> 2:27:01.520 have to commute could have a significant impact on toxic 2:27:01.600 --> 2:27:04.040 car culture, and again you can sell that to people. 2:27:04.520 --> 2:27:07.360 The obvious solutions are good places to start, but they 2:27:07.400 --> 2:27:10.320 should be seen as opening incisions, meant to clear the 2:27:10.360 --> 2:27:13.800 way to make deeper, more expansive cuts and eventually Hugh 2:27:13.879 --> 2:27:16.280 Away at the cancer we've planted in the heart of 2:27:16.360 --> 2:27:36.120 our civilization. Uh, it's could it's happened? Could hear? Robert 2:27:36.160 --> 2:27:40.240 Evans the podcast that is now begun? Um, this is 2:27:40.280 --> 2:27:43.800 a show about how things are falling apart and occasionally 2:27:43.840 --> 2:27:46.160 how to hot to maybe deal with that, maybe you 2:27:46.240 --> 2:27:48.119 try to steer things in a better direction. We talk 2:27:48.160 --> 2:27:50.600 about a bunch of stuff today. We're gonna be talking 2:27:50.640 --> 2:27:54.040 about more supply line um um stuff. And and in 2:27:54.200 --> 2:27:57.240 order to kind of introduce this episode, we wanted to 2:27:57.320 --> 2:28:01.800 bring in Alexis, who posted a right on Twitter about 2:28:01.840 --> 2:28:03.800 some of their experiences in the industry in which they 2:28:03.840 --> 2:28:05.840 work that that we all found very interesting. And so 2:28:05.920 --> 2:28:08.640 we just wanted to bring Alexis on and uh and 2:28:09.000 --> 2:28:11.440 and first off, have you kind of go over what 2:28:11.760 --> 2:28:13.959 what you went over in that threat and then um 2:28:14.280 --> 2:28:16.959 kind of zero win and talk about that. So Alexis, 2:28:17.040 --> 2:28:21.280 welcome to the show. Hi, thanks for having me. Um. Yeah, 2:28:21.760 --> 2:28:23.320 I'm gonna let you take it from here and then 2:28:23.400 --> 2:28:25.440 we'll we'll drill in once you once you get through 2:28:25.480 --> 2:28:27.760 your your piece, all right, So I'm just going to 2:28:27.840 --> 2:28:30.080 go ahead and read the thread that I posted and 2:28:30.160 --> 2:28:33.400 then yeah, we'll go from there. Uh. So, labor shortage 2:28:33.440 --> 2:28:37.119 discourse time. I work for a food manufacturing company, specifically 2:28:37.200 --> 2:28:41.240 bottling and canning various beverages, and we are desperately understaffed. 2:28:41.800 --> 2:28:44.560 The wages are competitive, but they can't keep anyone on 2:28:44.680 --> 2:28:47.920 after they hire them. Why, because we're short on people. 2:28:48.160 --> 2:28:50.720 As soon as someone is trained, they start throwing massive 2:28:50.720 --> 2:28:52.880 amounts of mandatory over time on them to try and 2:28:52.959 --> 2:28:55.039 cover the missing pieces while they look for more people 2:28:55.080 --> 2:28:58.160 to hire in. Folks get burned out and quit. And 2:28:58.320 --> 2:29:02.480 this is where my hate of justin time manufacturing comes in. Obviously, 2:29:02.520 --> 2:29:04.960 in food manufacturing, you can't just stock a warehouse with 2:29:05.000 --> 2:29:07.000 stuff and let it sit for a year, but you 2:29:07.040 --> 2:29:09.760 can keep a couple of weeks worth stock rotating at 2:29:09.800 --> 2:29:13.520 all times if you devote the warehouse space, employees, et 2:29:13.560 --> 2:29:15.959 cetera to doing so. This would give you some flex 2:29:16.040 --> 2:29:17.800 time to train your new people without having to run 2:29:17.879 --> 2:29:20.560 everyone into the dirt. So, even with a place that 2:29:20.760 --> 2:29:23.040 is offering decent money and benefits, because this is a 2:29:23.160 --> 2:29:25.920 union shop, we can't keep people because we're making a 2:29:25.959 --> 2:29:28.600 conscious decision to only ever have one to two days 2:29:28.640 --> 2:29:32.000 of stock on hand to increase profits. Meanwhile, thanks to 2:29:32.200 --> 2:29:34.760 lean manufacturing, we don't keep a ton of spare parts 2:29:34.800 --> 2:29:37.720 for our equipment on hand. Thanks to the supply chain 2:29:37.840 --> 2:29:40.560 just disruption, We've got packaging equipment that's been waiting on 2:29:40.600 --> 2:29:43.920 replacement parts for six months, which further fox our productivity 2:29:44.000 --> 2:29:47.160 doomed to downtime, which makes the company's schedule even more 2:29:47.280 --> 2:29:49.279 overtime to try and make up for the lost cases 2:29:49.320 --> 2:29:52.440 from equipment downtime, which burns out more employees, which puts 2:29:52.480 --> 2:29:55.199 us in an even deeper labor hole. I've been warning 2:29:55.200 --> 2:29:57.039 about justin time being a time bomb in the making 2:29:57.080 --> 2:30:00.760 for over a decade now. When it works perfectly, you're fine. 2:30:01.160 --> 2:30:04.280 A single interruption causes cascade effects. And since everyone has 2:30:04.280 --> 2:30:06.520 been doing the just in time thing, there's zero slack 2:30:06.680 --> 2:30:10.199 anywhere in the system. Grocery stores don't have any extrasoda 2:30:10.240 --> 2:30:13.480 in the back, they get behind demand builds up. Distribution 2:30:13.520 --> 2:30:17.000 doesn't have any pallets in the warehouse what warehouse, so 2:30:17.080 --> 2:30:20.320 they can't answer the surgeon demand from grocery stores. Manufacturing 2:30:20.360 --> 2:30:22.400 doesn't have spare parts for aging equipment, so we can't 2:30:22.400 --> 2:30:25.640 boost production. Spare parts makers don't have stock build up, 2:30:25.720 --> 2:30:29.320 so on and on it goes. The actual approximate cause 2:30:29.360 --> 2:30:32.760 of this is deregulation of capitalism that is incentivized quarterly 2:30:32.840 --> 2:30:35.880 profits and made long term thinking anathema to CEOs. But 2:30:36.000 --> 2:30:39.200 share conservatives blame California for not letting old trucks offload 2:30:39.240 --> 2:30:42.720 at the ports. That's it, and that's that's the essence 2:30:42.800 --> 2:30:47.200 of my thread. I then plug my podcast at the end. Yeah, 2:30:47.400 --> 2:30:49.960 so I wanted to. I'm curious as to kind of like, 2:30:51.160 --> 2:30:57.000 uh to what I'm trying to understand, Like what the 2:30:57.120 --> 2:30:59.760 solution is. Like we've talked a bit about Okay, justin 2:30:59.800 --> 2:31:04.000 tie manufacturing is is problematic for a lot of reasons. Um, 2:31:04.160 --> 2:31:06.879 keeping more like on the shelves is going to allow 2:31:06.920 --> 2:31:08.720 you to avoid these crunches, and it's going to like 2:31:08.840 --> 2:31:12.240 make supply line issues like the ones we've experiencing since 2:31:12.280 --> 2:31:15.959 the start of the COVID pandemic less severe and less common. Um, 2:31:16.320 --> 2:31:18.200 But how do you actually how do you actually make 2:31:18.240 --> 2:31:20.640 that happen? Because I guess the traditional free market thing 2:31:20.720 --> 2:31:22.880 is that like, well, because this has been such a 2:31:22.959 --> 2:31:26.640 problem for companies, um, you know, they'll naturally change the 2:31:26.760 --> 2:31:29.240 system in order to avoid this in the future. I 2:31:29.320 --> 2:31:33.880 don't feel like that's likely to happen. Um, And I'm wondering, 2:31:34.000 --> 2:31:36.160 like what do we uh what what what do you 2:31:36.240 --> 2:31:39.360 think is the way forward here? Well, because some of 2:31:39.400 --> 2:31:42.280 the problem is right now, like most most companies, you 2:31:42.320 --> 2:31:45.040 will pay taxes on stuff that you have stored in 2:31:45.120 --> 2:31:49.080 a warehouse things like that. UM, So no company is 2:31:49.120 --> 2:31:52.920 going to voluntarily lower their profit margins if the other 2:31:52.959 --> 2:31:56.560 companies don't do it themselves as well. So really there's 2:31:56.600 --> 2:31:58.880 going to have to be some sort of forcing of 2:31:59.120 --> 2:32:03.560 companies to uh have that on hand. And I don't 2:32:03.640 --> 2:32:06.600 see just being able to write a law that says, oh, well, 2:32:06.720 --> 2:32:09.240 you're required to have this much backstock on hand, as 2:32:09.320 --> 2:32:14.120 as being a functional way to work. And really, as 2:32:14.160 --> 2:32:16.360 I'm sure you know, Robert, I know you're well aware, 2:32:16.959 --> 2:32:20.680 the capitalism itself is kind of the problem. But as 2:32:20.760 --> 2:32:25.920 far as I guess, a solution to this sort of thing, um, 2:32:26.320 --> 2:32:30.879 you would have to disincentivize the quarterly profits above all 2:32:31.080 --> 2:32:35.240 in order to force companies back into long term thinking. Now, 2:32:35.640 --> 2:32:41.000 from a purely like mechanical standpoint, um, I guess if 2:32:41.120 --> 2:32:47.039 you if you did something to incentivize companies having backstock 2:32:47.160 --> 2:32:51.320 or flex stock on on hand, that might help. But um, 2:32:51.680 --> 2:32:53.480 I mean, I'm just I'm just a cog in the 2:32:53.560 --> 2:32:57.039 machine getting ground up. So as far as like big solutions, 2:32:57.200 --> 2:33:00.240 that's I mean. I've been looking at it every since 2:33:00.280 --> 2:33:02.680 I worked in a freaking casket factory and we started 2:33:02.720 --> 2:33:05.680 doing just in time there, and just every time that 2:33:05.800 --> 2:33:08.480 I've been in a place, a manufacturing place and seen 2:33:08.560 --> 2:33:10.640 it happen, I'm just like, oh, this is gonna go wrong, 2:33:11.360 --> 2:33:14.240 because you can't. You can do just in time if 2:33:14.320 --> 2:33:17.560 all of your suppliers are local, but having it stretched 2:33:17.560 --> 2:33:20.840 across the global supply chain, it just it it's inevitably 2:33:20.879 --> 2:33:24.879 going to collapse in on itself. I'm sorry that I'm 2:33:24.879 --> 2:33:27.320 not more helpful. No, no, but I mean this is 2:33:27.520 --> 2:33:29.720 this is like the problem because there's a lot of 2:33:29.800 --> 2:33:32.360 reasons why the supply chain is global. Some of them 2:33:32.400 --> 2:33:35.040 are like labor related reasons, some of them are cost cunning, 2:33:35.080 --> 2:33:38.560 some of them are just like pure pragmatism. Um. But 2:33:38.720 --> 2:33:42.080 it's trying to like I I don't I feel like 2:33:42.360 --> 2:33:44.000 it's it's one thing to say, like, well, part of 2:33:44.040 --> 2:33:46.360 the problem is that like all of these different pieces 2:33:46.400 --> 2:33:48.960 come from different countries, um. And there's a number of 2:33:49.000 --> 2:33:52.280 shady reasons for aspects of that, UM. But it makes 2:33:52.440 --> 2:33:54.840 for greater problems when there's a piline shortage and then 2:33:54.840 --> 2:33:56.600 like okay, well what are we what are we gonna? 2:33:56.879 --> 2:33:59.880 Are you suggesting that we make everything domestically because I 2:34:00.200 --> 2:34:04.720 don't feel like that's a realistic solution. Um. Yeah. And 2:34:04.840 --> 2:34:07.040 it's like it's just it's I'm trying to get a 2:34:07.120 --> 2:34:10.240 handle on there's a couple of angles on this there's 2:34:10.280 --> 2:34:12.960 there's what we think is going to happen, um, And 2:34:13.040 --> 2:34:14.840 then there's a question of like, is there a way 2:34:14.879 --> 2:34:18.119 that the system as it exists could make this whole 2:34:18.160 --> 2:34:20.320 thing less vulnerable? And and a lot of ways that's 2:34:20.320 --> 2:34:22.320 going to be separate from the question of what would 2:34:22.320 --> 2:34:24.440 be better for everyone to happen, because a lot of 2:34:24.480 --> 2:34:26.000 what would be better for everyone to happen is a 2:34:26.040 --> 2:34:28.880 white A significant chunk of these things that we have 2:34:29.040 --> 2:34:31.600 constantly stocked on the shelves are no longer parts of 2:34:31.640 --> 2:34:34.240 our life, right. Um, there's a lot of things that 2:34:34.320 --> 2:34:36.240 are made that we do not need and that are 2:34:36.680 --> 2:34:38.880 there's an environmental cost and a show social cost and 2:34:38.959 --> 2:34:43.560 YadA YadA, YadA um. But I guess first I'm kind 2:34:43.560 --> 2:34:45.960 of curious to drilling in, like how realistic do you 2:34:46.040 --> 2:34:48.160 think it is that the system as it exists is 2:34:48.240 --> 2:34:51.120 going to like mitigate this and come up with better 2:34:51.200 --> 2:34:54.600 ways to to do this that render us less vulnerable 2:34:54.640 --> 2:34:57.680 to the supply crunches? Like is there I don't see 2:34:57.680 --> 2:35:00.440 a great financial incentive in it for them yet, um, 2:35:00.520 --> 2:35:03.200 because they don't seem to be hurting, right, Like that's 2:35:03.600 --> 2:35:07.360 that's the thing? Well actually, and and again, please keep 2:35:07.400 --> 2:35:10.200 in mind this is limited anecdotal evidence. Yeah, because it's 2:35:10.240 --> 2:35:12.400 gonna be definitely John Deer, I know, was making record 2:35:12.440 --> 2:35:16.120 profits before all the this union stuff happened. But like, 2:35:16.240 --> 2:35:19.920 that's not everyone, right. So again, I work for a 2:35:19.959 --> 2:35:23.720 soda manufacturer. So every time you're in you know, enjoying 2:35:23.920 --> 2:35:29.119 your your Schmetzy Schmola or your or your Schmago whatever whatever, 2:35:29.720 --> 2:35:32.040 I'm not going to explain which company I work for 2:35:32.040 --> 2:35:35.160 because I don't want to get in trouble um. And 2:35:35.320 --> 2:35:38.360 we're we're actually a captive bottler, which means that it's 2:35:38.360 --> 2:35:42.080 a separate company, but we work for the big soda corporation. 2:35:42.480 --> 2:35:46.039 I think that in certain instances those things will change, because, 2:35:46.120 --> 2:35:49.480 for example, just last week, we had one of our 2:35:49.560 --> 2:35:53.360 four lines go down of our production capacity went down 2:35:53.800 --> 2:35:56.520 because we had a motor burnout on the rollers that 2:35:56.560 --> 2:35:58.360 would move a full palette out to be picked up 2:35:58.360 --> 2:36:03.279 by a forklift, and there was no replacement motor in stock, 2:36:03.920 --> 2:36:07.720 and so we had I think forty eight hours of 2:36:07.800 --> 2:36:11.320 downtime on this. Now, all the way up at the 2:36:11.360 --> 2:36:14.279 top the company executive, you know, we're one of thirty 2:36:14.320 --> 2:36:18.039 some plants. They don't care about why it was down, 2:36:18.200 --> 2:36:21.959 just that it was down. So in our position here, um, 2:36:22.480 --> 2:36:24.400 the people a little higher up the food chain than 2:36:24.480 --> 2:36:27.520 me are insisting like, hey, we've been after you guys 2:36:27.560 --> 2:36:30.040 for months that we need spares like this. And I 2:36:30.160 --> 2:36:32.640 think that as that sort of stuff happens, as it 2:36:33.440 --> 2:36:37.800 cuts into potential future profits, you know, it's not dropping 2:36:37.840 --> 2:36:39.879 their profits, but it's keeping them from being even higher, 2:36:39.959 --> 2:36:43.280 maybe certain certain companies are going to be like, Okay, 2:36:43.400 --> 2:36:46.080 maybe we do need a couple more spares on the shelves. 2:36:46.760 --> 2:36:48.840 As far as on the production side of it, I 2:36:48.879 --> 2:36:51.320 don't see that happening. I think we're still going to 2:36:51.400 --> 2:36:54.920 be shipping out palletts of you know, pallets of corn 2:36:55.040 --> 2:36:59.600 syrup infected carbonated water as fast as we can make them, 2:37:00.560 --> 2:37:02.959 which you and you were talking about the environmental costs, 2:37:03.000 --> 2:37:04.640 like you do not want to know how much water 2:37:04.800 --> 2:37:07.400 it takes to make a single leader of soda. You 2:37:07.480 --> 2:37:13.280 really don't. Um. But on this on the production, like 2:37:13.680 --> 2:37:16.360 input side, I think that companies are going to start 2:37:16.400 --> 2:37:19.920 stocking spare parts because it has been and I still 2:37:20.000 --> 2:37:22.000 have friends who work for other companies that I used 2:37:22.040 --> 2:37:25.640 to work for. It has been all throughout the system. 2:37:25.720 --> 2:37:29.200 And I live in the Midwest. Every company is going 2:37:29.280 --> 2:37:32.000 through this where they're having huge amounts of downtime because 2:37:32.680 --> 2:37:36.400 they things as small as a gasket or an O 2:37:36.640 --> 2:37:39.879 ring are not on the shelf, and they're finally companies 2:37:39.920 --> 2:37:42.040 are finally going to listen to what their maintenance people 2:37:42.080 --> 2:37:45.560 have been screaming at them, that we can't just stagger 2:37:45.600 --> 2:37:48.160 along and then oh, well it's next day delivery. Yeah, 2:37:48.200 --> 2:37:49.959 and then you freak out that this line was down 2:37:50.040 --> 2:37:52.600 for twenty four hours now that it's not even next 2:37:52.680 --> 2:37:54.960 day delivery, it's next week delivery. I think that side 2:37:55.000 --> 2:37:57.120 of it they're going to probably try and fix. But 2:37:57.440 --> 2:38:02.240 the other side, shipping to the consumer, I really don't 2:38:02.280 --> 2:38:04.840 see that they're going to change that. Yeah, I mean 2:38:04.920 --> 2:38:08.680 that makes that makes sense, and I we are you're 2:38:08.760 --> 2:38:11.760 kind of lad thinking about this inevitably to like two conclusions. 2:38:11.840 --> 2:38:15.120 One of them is that I have my I'm sure 2:38:15.400 --> 2:38:18.480 parts of this the system will adapt, as it already 2:38:18.560 --> 2:38:20.720 has been in fact, which is why I, like you 2:38:20.800 --> 2:38:23.360 haven't seen toilet paper run out as bad as it 2:38:23.440 --> 2:38:25.320 did at the start of the pandemic. Again, right, there 2:38:25.360 --> 2:38:28.360 is a degree to which the system is capable of adjustment, 2:38:28.480 --> 2:38:32.840 but kind of in a larger sense. Um, this is 2:38:34.200 --> 2:38:36.200 number one. I'm kind of left with the feeling that 2:38:36.480 --> 2:38:39.520 because of the way the system was set up and 2:38:39.600 --> 2:38:42.480 the fact that it was disrupted so severely, it's kind 2:38:42.520 --> 2:38:45.520 of impossible to get a percent back on track, especially 2:38:45.600 --> 2:38:48.320 considering the disruptions are going to continue, not just waves 2:38:48.360 --> 2:38:51.800 of COVID, but you know, in natural disasters and whatnot, 2:38:51.959 --> 2:38:55.880 shortages of things like truck drivers, Like these different little 2:38:55.959 --> 2:38:58.000 hits are going to keep coming, and I just don't 2:38:58.040 --> 2:39:01.400 know that wherever going to like catch everywhere enough that 2:39:02.480 --> 2:39:05.320 like shortages of some sort aren't an aspect of our 2:39:05.400 --> 2:39:07.200 lives kind of forever. And this is one of those 2:39:07.280 --> 2:39:09.080 things that if you've spent a lot of time outside 2:39:09.080 --> 2:39:10.959 of the United States, that's something a lot of people 2:39:11.040 --> 2:39:13.040 have been dealing with for years. It's just not something 2:39:13.080 --> 2:39:15.960 Americans are used to dealing with. And I think I 2:39:16.080 --> 2:39:18.600 kind of feel like that's just where it is now. 2:39:18.760 --> 2:39:22.560 Like I don't feel like every aspect of our our 2:39:22.760 --> 2:39:25.280 production and consumption system is going to get back where 2:39:25.280 --> 2:39:28.040 it to where it was February. I think maybe that's 2:39:28.080 --> 2:39:31.959 never happening again. No, absolutely, it will not ever happen. 2:39:33.400 --> 2:39:35.960 You were saying earlier that you know, there's some practical 2:39:36.040 --> 2:39:38.080 reasons for the global supply chain. Like one of the 2:39:38.160 --> 2:39:40.760 things that we've had such hard time getting in is 2:39:40.840 --> 2:39:45.160 any of our concentrates that contain real vanilla. Obviously, we 2:39:45.320 --> 2:39:48.080 can't grow vanilla in the United States. Yeah, that's the 2:39:48.160 --> 2:39:50.200 thing you have to I mean, that's part of why 2:39:50.240 --> 2:39:53.320 colonialism exists, right, you need to go get vanilla. Yeah. 2:39:54.200 --> 2:39:57.080 So yeah, So, like there are certain things that are 2:39:57.160 --> 2:40:00.640 going to be stay have to stay globe if we're 2:40:00.680 --> 2:40:03.080 going to continue to make the things that we make. 2:40:03.920 --> 2:40:07.480 And just from my side of it, being able to see, oh, well, 2:40:07.520 --> 2:40:10.200 why can't we get this concentrate in, Oh because it 2:40:10.240 --> 2:40:12.480 has vanilla as an ingredient, and there's been a bunch 2:40:12.520 --> 2:40:14.800 of draughts and ship and so vanilla is in a crunch, 2:40:14.879 --> 2:40:17.680 you know that sort of thing. So I just, um, 2:40:18.480 --> 2:40:21.160 you're right in that. Yeah, we're going to have shortages. 2:40:21.280 --> 2:40:24.360 There's it's you know, and it's not just the mechanical 2:40:24.440 --> 2:40:26.600 side on ours. It's like we can't get cans in, 2:40:26.800 --> 2:40:29.480 we can't get concentrated in, we can't you know, whatever 2:40:29.600 --> 2:40:31.360 it is that we can't get in is going to 2:40:31.400 --> 2:40:34.440 slow us down and demand will build up. I did 2:40:34.520 --> 2:40:36.440 have somebody in that thread respond and say, I don't 2:40:36.440 --> 2:40:39.280 see how demand for soda will build up. And I'm like, now, 2:40:39.360 --> 2:40:41.760 I have a friend who's like a diet Dr. Pepper fiend, 2:40:41.800 --> 2:40:43.760 and as soon as diet Dr. Pepper shows up, now 2:40:43.840 --> 2:40:47.880 she buys like packs. Demand will absolutely build up for 2:40:47.920 --> 2:40:50.760 stuff when people feel like they're being deprived of something 2:40:51.440 --> 2:40:53.680 that when it becomes available, they are going to hoard 2:40:53.720 --> 2:40:58.400 it as best they can. Yeah. And that's again with soda, 2:40:58.879 --> 2:41:00.800 just kind of an annoyance. And so although that can 2:41:01.560 --> 2:41:06.120 because individual people can react in extreme ways, can snowball. 2:41:06.600 --> 2:41:08.400 I'm not gonna be surprised if one of these days 2:41:08.440 --> 2:41:10.879 we have somebody shoot up a fucking grocery store because 2:41:10.920 --> 2:41:15.240 they're whatever was out. Um. But that's also not a necessity. 2:41:15.360 --> 2:41:19.560 And I think that like the concern is that especially 2:41:19.600 --> 2:41:21.520 when you you look at stuff, like you know, there's 2:41:21.520 --> 2:41:23.400 a couple of states that had like their wheat harvests 2:41:23.400 --> 2:41:25.520 and corn harvest that were like half or less than 2:41:25.600 --> 2:41:27.880 half of normal in big chunks of a rack. It 2:41:28.000 --> 2:41:31.800 was like down by I think like seventy um. Like 2:41:31.920 --> 2:41:36.920 these massive shortages of growing basic food stuffs. Um, And 2:41:37.080 --> 2:41:39.960 that's all that's all tight into this, Like it's not 2:41:40.080 --> 2:41:42.160 the same business that you're on, but it's all tied 2:41:42.200 --> 2:41:44.400 into aspects of this, and it's all tied into like 2:41:44.800 --> 2:41:46.760 a lot of our ability to get that food out 2:41:46.920 --> 2:41:50.240 of the field is reliant upon different kinds of mechanical 2:41:50.320 --> 2:41:53.200 harvesting equipment. The materials to which to like fix and 2:41:53.280 --> 2:41:56.360 replace it are often like caught up in this whole 2:41:56.440 --> 2:41:58.320 just in time problem because they don't make enough of 2:41:58.360 --> 2:42:00.120 them and sometimes they don't have them in store is 2:42:00.160 --> 2:42:02.280 and then there's like a strike at John Deer and 2:42:02.360 --> 2:42:04.160 so more aren't getting made and so there's not what 2:42:04.280 --> 2:42:06.720 you need to repair the equipment in time to get 2:42:06.760 --> 2:42:08.840 stuff out of the field everywhere, and in a year 2:42:08.879 --> 2:42:10.760 when you already have a reduction of harvests, like that 2:42:10.879 --> 2:42:13.920 cuts down on it further. Um Like I I think, 2:42:14.440 --> 2:42:18.000 I don't know, it's it's this. There's always a couple 2:42:18.040 --> 2:42:19.720 of things to look at, which is like number one, 2:42:19.879 --> 2:42:22.920 as we've talked about, like how is the system going 2:42:23.000 --> 2:42:24.920 to try to handle this? What ways are they going 2:42:24.959 --> 2:42:26.440 to be successful, what ways are they going to fail? 2:42:26.720 --> 2:42:29.240 What things are you going to have to endure? And 2:42:29.520 --> 2:42:31.160 what things I think what I want to talk about 2:42:31.200 --> 2:42:33.480 next is like what things do we need to change, uh, 2:42:34.400 --> 2:42:37.680 in order to like, as communities be more resilient to 2:42:37.760 --> 2:42:39.800 this stuff, which you know, has less to do with soda, 2:42:39.879 --> 2:42:41.840 which again is not a necessity, but more to do 2:42:41.959 --> 2:42:46.600 with figuring out how to anticipate and endure supply line disruptions. 2:42:47.959 --> 2:42:51.800 Right absolutely. And and while I'm currently in soda, I 2:42:51.920 --> 2:42:54.600 have been in everything from automotive too, I think as 2:42:55.240 --> 2:42:58.840 or casket manufacturer. So you know, when I can go 2:42:58.959 --> 2:43:02.560 through a casket a week, you know, especially when you're 2:43:02.640 --> 2:43:06.600 driving your well, yeah, when I'm drunk a boy right 2:43:06.680 --> 2:43:08.800 right through a trailer park, I mean you're you're I 2:43:08.879 --> 2:43:10.720 mean your casket order has got to be through the roof. 2:43:11.080 --> 2:43:14.280 It is it is a lot a lot of people. Yeah, 2:43:14.480 --> 2:43:18.280 I mean I I do actually wonder how fuck um, 2:43:18.400 --> 2:43:20.840 I mean like, I do actually wonder how much like 2:43:20.920 --> 2:43:23.800 the casket industry and something that has been affected by 2:43:23.840 --> 2:43:26.640 the by like by the pandemic with the you know, 2:43:26.800 --> 2:43:30.040 an influx of dead people, and how that's how how 2:43:30.120 --> 2:43:31.959 that's affective thinks that That's something I've been wondering about, 2:43:31.959 --> 2:43:34.119 But I have not actually spent a time looking into 2:43:34.800 --> 2:43:37.800 I can't speak to the pandemic specifically. I quit. I 2:43:38.080 --> 2:43:40.440 quit the casket industry in two thousand and eight, but 2:43:40.760 --> 2:43:44.240 I do recall my boss, the owner at the time, 2:43:44.320 --> 2:43:46.959 being very very upset that Hurricane Katrina had a lower 2:43:47.080 --> 2:43:51.200 death toll than he anticipated because she had over ordered 2:43:51.240 --> 2:43:53.600 the sheet metal to make the caskets, and he was 2:43:53.720 --> 2:43:56.120 very piste off about having all that extra stock because 2:43:56.160 --> 2:44:02.040 they were to society. Yes, yeah, that's that's good to hear. Yeah, great. 2:44:02.200 --> 2:44:04.920 He was in a bad mood for like a month 2:44:05.000 --> 2:44:09.119 after Katrina because it hadn't reached his expectations. Well, sure, 2:44:09.280 --> 2:44:13.280 that's a real problem for for absolutely, he's got that's 2:44:13.440 --> 2:44:19.080 all the sympathy, critical support. That job was grim. I'm 2:44:19.120 --> 2:44:22.240 just gonna say that that sounds like it. I I 2:44:22.400 --> 2:44:25.119 have a through a through a loved one, a connection 2:44:25.200 --> 2:44:27.920 to somebody who is like works for a company that 2:44:28.080 --> 2:44:32.400 makes body bags and was amazing for them. They did 2:44:32.560 --> 2:44:38.000 incredible in um. I didn't hear any ghoulish stories. It's 2:44:38.000 --> 2:44:39.600 just like, yeah, of course you guys made a bunch 2:44:39.640 --> 2:44:43.440 of extra money. Sounds like that was great for you, 2:44:45.520 --> 2:44:48.720 putting it putting in a mental note to go through 2:44:48.720 --> 2:44:50.880 a bunch of the campaign contributions of people who make 2:44:50.920 --> 2:44:53.600 body bags and check if they're supporting anti mess Yes. Yeah, 2:44:53.680 --> 2:44:56.160 see if Big Corpse got into this at all. Yeah, 2:44:56.240 --> 2:44:58.360 I mean, honestly, the thing that the thing to do is, 2:44:58.720 --> 2:45:00.560 you know, I'm not a big fan the stock market 2:45:00.600 --> 2:45:02.760 in general, but next time, the next time that there's 2:45:02.760 --> 2:45:05.960 a pandemic, find out which companies make body begs on 2:45:06.000 --> 2:45:07.840 the stock market and invest in those as soon as 2:45:07.879 --> 2:45:09.680 as soon as the pandemic starts. I mean, I can 2:45:09.720 --> 2:45:12.000 tell you what I'm I'm putting money into big corps 2:45:12.200 --> 2:45:14.760 as soon as uh as soon as the next pandemic hits. 2:45:14.879 --> 2:45:22.840 That's absolutely gonna happen. Oh boy, all right, Yeah that's Graham. Yeah, 2:45:22.879 --> 2:45:26.080 I think it's fine. There's a reason why after after 2:45:26.160 --> 2:45:29.840 I started working there, I immediately told my husband, Hey, 2:45:30.720 --> 2:45:34.640 make sure if I die before you, I'm cremated. So yeah, yeah, 2:45:35.600 --> 2:45:37.959 I don't want to give these monsters any of my money. 2:45:38.040 --> 2:45:40.240 What I what I'm looking into is just full full 2:45:40.280 --> 2:45:42.840 body stuffing that people can pose me around it. But 2:45:43.000 --> 2:45:45.560 that's a set for a topic. Yeah, you talk about 2:45:45.600 --> 2:45:48.039 that a lot, Garrison. What I did want to mention 2:45:48.200 --> 2:45:51.160 is like, actually, when you were talking about how they 2:45:51.280 --> 2:45:53.640 hire in a lot of employees and they make them 2:45:53.680 --> 2:45:56.440 more horrible hours and then they you know, they quitness 2:45:56.480 --> 2:45:58.840 is kind of a constant kind of process and like 2:45:58.959 --> 2:46:01.920 this isn't exclusive to that industry at all. Think one 2:46:01.959 --> 2:46:05.160 of the worst defenders of this is actually the Postal Service. UM. 2:46:05.800 --> 2:46:08.120 I think the Postal Service has like the lowest employee 2:46:08.120 --> 2:46:11.760 satisfaction out of any shipping company. UM. And like my my, 2:46:12.000 --> 2:46:13.760 my father, I work for the Postal Service for a bit. 2:46:13.800 --> 2:46:16.960 And when you first join up, you join as like 2:46:17.400 --> 2:46:20.520 you join as a on like a non career employee path, 2:46:20.600 --> 2:46:22.840 and then you can get promoted to a career employee 2:46:22.840 --> 2:46:25.400 path after a few years. But the turnaround for the 2:46:25.480 --> 2:46:29.280 non career employee paths is massive, Like local branches can 2:46:29.280 --> 2:46:32.320 stay after like people who start working at the Postal 2:46:32.400 --> 2:46:34.840 Service will end up quitting within the year. Now that 2:46:35.000 --> 2:46:37.080 number can be different based on nationally and for based 2:46:37.120 --> 2:46:38.680 on like you know, based on what states you're in, 2:46:39.000 --> 2:46:41.320 but but across the board, it's it's always around at 2:46:41.400 --> 2:46:46.320 least fifty for employee turnaround for people who join up 2:46:46.320 --> 2:46:50.480 the Postal Service on these like a city carrier assistant positions, 2:46:50.959 --> 2:46:54.000 it's fascinating, Yeah, because because when when you when you're 2:46:54.000 --> 2:46:56.080 a non career employee path you have to work seven 2:46:56.160 --> 2:46:57.800 days a week and you can be called into work 2:46:57.840 --> 2:47:00.680 basically any time usually working around tend to all our days, 2:47:00.879 --> 2:47:03.080 all of the career employees, so all of the sounds, 2:47:05.879 --> 2:47:07.960 but like all of all, all of like all of 2:47:08.120 --> 2:47:10.280 the regular carriers get to work like their specific route 2:47:10.280 --> 2:47:12.720 and that's it. That's their whole day. For the for 2:47:12.840 --> 2:47:14.720 the people who are new to the job, they're forced 2:47:14.720 --> 2:47:18.160 to work tons of routes um fill in whenever someone 2:47:18.240 --> 2:47:21.640 else can't, and we constantly be doing over time um 2:47:21.800 --> 2:47:24.720 and working like basically NonStop, NonStop, with only like two 2:47:24.959 --> 2:47:27.000 like only two holidays off a year or something. It's 2:47:27.040 --> 2:47:30.480 it's pretty intense, um, which is why you know, when 2:47:30.520 --> 2:47:33.520 the postal service comes have problems and because and and 2:47:33.720 --> 2:47:37.120 because there's so few there's generally not tons of employees, 2:47:37.720 --> 2:47:39.400 I mean like there is lots like comparedly like like 2:47:39.480 --> 2:47:41.920 the Postal Services one of the bigger employers in the 2:47:42.160 --> 2:47:46.000 whole country. But for people when when when employees drop off, 2:47:46.320 --> 2:47:48.400 filling those positions can be really hard in times of 2:47:48.480 --> 2:47:50.160 like crisis, So like you know last year when there's 2:47:50.160 --> 2:47:52.360 all these problems with the postal service, all of these 2:47:52.440 --> 2:47:54.920 kind of issues around the supply chain and how people 2:47:54.959 --> 2:47:57.120 treat their workers. All of them like like you know, 2:47:57.280 --> 2:48:00.440 compound to create one like much bigger problem which we 2:48:00.480 --> 2:48:02.240 saw last year with the postal service and like late 2:48:02.280 --> 2:48:04.600 in like the late summer. Um. So I've just spent 2:48:04.600 --> 2:48:06.279 an interesting how it's like, you know, these same issues 2:48:06.280 --> 2:48:09.200 around like how we treat workers is adding on to 2:48:09.280 --> 2:48:11.760 this problem of like supply chains and getting stuff delivered 2:48:12.000 --> 2:48:14.440 and all this kind of stuff. And so what what 2:48:14.600 --> 2:48:17.360 I find interesting there is so you're you know, we're 2:48:17.400 --> 2:48:22.120 talking about the employee issue and yeah, it's sure. So 2:48:22.360 --> 2:48:25.040 I've been Uh, the plant I was working in, which 2:48:25.080 --> 2:48:27.600 is twenty minutes from my house, closed down, and now 2:48:27.680 --> 2:48:34.560 I'm working ninety miles away literally an hour, and I 2:48:34.640 --> 2:48:36.879 am i am working four twelves a week, and I'm 2:48:36.959 --> 2:48:39.640 crashing at my parents house, which they live about sixty 2:48:39.680 --> 2:48:42.720 miles away. So it's a little bit better, um, but 2:48:43.160 --> 2:48:47.080 also suck. Yeah, and my parents are hard right evangelicals 2:48:47.080 --> 2:48:51.160 who do not agree with you know, so that's fun. 2:48:51.480 --> 2:48:54.480 But um, the plant that I was in was a 2:48:54.600 --> 2:48:56.880 non union plant, and the one I'm in now is 2:48:56.920 --> 2:48:59.400 a union plant, and one of the things that I've 2:48:59.440 --> 2:49:03.440 noticed that actually kind of different is for once in 2:49:03.560 --> 2:49:06.880 the non union plant, things were actually better because what 2:49:07.000 --> 2:49:08.920 we could do what what what could be done is, 2:49:09.480 --> 2:49:12.120 all right, we're all working seven days a week. We 2:49:12.280 --> 2:49:14.640 have enough staffing that if nobody calls in, we have 2:49:14.840 --> 2:49:17.520 one spare person who normally goes around and gives breaks 2:49:17.560 --> 2:49:20.199 and stuff like that. Well we could, you know, basically 2:49:20.400 --> 2:49:23.480 all take turns taking a day off during that seven 2:49:23.560 --> 2:49:26.320 day week. At the union plant that I'm at now, though, 2:49:26.640 --> 2:49:30.840 it's all seniority based, so any time that they force 2:49:30.959 --> 2:49:33.600 over time, they go from the bottom of the seniority 2:49:33.680 --> 2:49:37.240 list on up. So the people the people who are 2:49:37.280 --> 2:49:39.959 being forced into those which I described in the thread, 2:49:40.080 --> 2:49:42.640 I think it was it was split off in the thread. 2:49:42.720 --> 2:49:46.680 But the people who were being forced to stay over 2:49:46.800 --> 2:49:49.600 four hours and then come in four hours early, where 2:49:49.640 --> 2:49:52.879 you oh, you were working six to two, now you're working, 2:49:53.640 --> 2:49:57.640 you know, six to six, and then you're coming in 2:49:58.320 --> 2:50:00.800 at two in the mo runing instead of six in 2:50:00.840 --> 2:50:03.320 the morning the next day are always the people who 2:50:03.360 --> 2:50:06.800 are the lowest on the seniority list, which is same thing, 2:50:07.120 --> 2:50:09.280 same same thing with the Postal Service. Yeah, yeah, I 2:50:09.320 --> 2:50:11.840 mean it's not there's a number of different I mean 2:50:11.879 --> 2:50:14.600 I've heard that complaint from a couple of different union gigs, um, 2:50:15.240 --> 2:50:18.920 and it's yeah, it's a problem. Yeah, and it's that's 2:50:18.959 --> 2:50:21.360 why we get these new people and they get trained up, 2:50:21.400 --> 2:50:24.360 and now they're trained and they're signed off, and then 2:50:24.400 --> 2:50:27.080 they immediately go from because when you're training, you're not 2:50:27.600 --> 2:50:31.160 you can't train on overtime or whatever. But now it's oh, okay, 2:50:31.200 --> 2:50:34.039 well now you're working every weekend, you're being forced over, 2:50:34.120 --> 2:50:37.920 you're being forced in early, just NonStop. And so yeah, 2:50:38.080 --> 2:50:41.360 they get trained for a month and then a month 2:50:41.440 --> 2:50:45.000 after that they quit because they went from working a 2:50:45.240 --> 2:50:51.400 relatively sane amount to aunt. We went fifty eight days 2:50:51.440 --> 2:50:55.160 at one point without a day off. My dad went 2:50:55.240 --> 2:50:57.200 like almost I think like three hundred days without with 2:50:57.360 --> 2:50:59.360 without a day off when he started the Postal Service. 2:50:59.720 --> 2:51:01.640 Like kind of funny thing is like when you hear 2:51:01.680 --> 2:51:03.640 the Postal Service talking with this like from the in 2:51:03.720 --> 2:51:06.000 their own reports and on their own website, what they 2:51:06.080 --> 2:51:08.280 find a problem with is not not the turnaround in 2:51:08.400 --> 2:51:11.760 and of itself, but how they're basically wasting money on 2:51:11.879 --> 2:51:14.160 trainings for people that don't end up working. It's like 2:51:14.440 --> 2:51:16.720 that is their main concern is that they're spending all 2:51:16.720 --> 2:51:19.480 this money on like training for people that don't stick 2:51:19.520 --> 2:51:22.560 around often. Um, and like, yeah, well maybe you should 2:51:22.560 --> 2:51:25.360 address why they don't stick around often. That's that seems 2:51:25.400 --> 2:51:29.240 to be kind of the actual issue here. Yeah, And 2:51:29.520 --> 2:51:31.280 what I've been pushing for, and I know this is 2:51:31.320 --> 2:51:33.040 more on the labor side than on the on the 2:51:33.080 --> 2:51:35.840 supply chain side that we were focusing on. I've been 2:51:35.920 --> 2:51:39.080 pushing for instead of three shifts where we keep just 2:51:39.160 --> 2:51:42.040 getting just hammered with this stuff, I want us to 2:51:42.120 --> 2:51:46.240 do four shifts, twelve hour days and do like a 2:51:46.360 --> 2:51:48.840 two on two off, three on three off type swing 2:51:48.959 --> 2:51:53.440 shift where you have like one shift that works. You know, 2:51:53.800 --> 2:51:56.080 you work three days one week, four days the next week, 2:51:56.120 --> 2:51:58.280 and you work twelve hour days, but really you wind 2:51:58.360 --> 2:52:00.200 up getting a bunch of days off, you know, Like 2:52:00.320 --> 2:52:02.880 that's if you're gonna work seven days a week, that's 2:52:02.920 --> 2:52:05.840 the best way to do it in my opinion. I mean, like, 2:52:06.440 --> 2:52:08.920 you know, it's there's a lot of resistance to well, 2:52:09.240 --> 2:52:11.000 well then we have to hire these extra people. Well 2:52:11.000 --> 2:52:13.680 you're hiring those people anyway. And then they're quitting. I mean, 2:52:13.720 --> 2:52:15.840 like you're not even getting your value out of them 2:52:16.240 --> 2:52:18.840 slave drivers. I mean, like you said, this is more, 2:52:18.920 --> 2:52:20.880 this is more than labor side than the supply chain side. 2:52:21.160 --> 2:52:23.440 But honestly, these are these are like the same side, right, 2:52:23.520 --> 2:52:26.000 because if you don't have employee like this is you know, 2:52:26.120 --> 2:52:28.040 this is a fundamental you know thing, and like how 2:52:28.080 --> 2:52:30.720 capitalism works, right, you need to have you know, workers 2:52:30.800 --> 2:52:32.840 to make there have be any value at all. Right, 2:52:33.120 --> 2:52:35.600 So if there's if there isn't any people to working, 2:52:35.840 --> 2:52:37.920 then there is no supply chain. It's gone. Because if 2:52:37.920 --> 2:52:39.680 we need people to do it, both on the production 2:52:39.760 --> 2:52:41.920 side and both in like the transportation side. That's like 2:52:41.959 --> 2:52:45.120 you know ups um usps, you know FedEx, you know, 2:52:45.160 --> 2:52:47.360 so like the mail carriers and stuff is very important 2:52:47.360 --> 2:52:49.880 to all of this because you you you need in 2:52:49.959 --> 2:52:51.520 order to for for there to be a supply chain, 2:52:51.560 --> 2:52:53.720 there needs to be the chain part right where you 2:52:53.800 --> 2:52:56.720 carry it from one place to to another. So it's 2:52:56.720 --> 2:52:58.560 both it's both on the production side and on the 2:52:58.600 --> 2:53:03.240 transportation side. For all these problems, you know. Yeah, And 2:53:03.360 --> 2:53:05.280 one of them one of the things that I in 2:53:05.400 --> 2:53:08.160 the replies to my thread, which I got into was 2:53:08.600 --> 2:53:14.320 that part of the the only slack in just in 2:53:14.440 --> 2:53:19.880 Time manufacturing is the employees. They've pulled all of the 2:53:20.000 --> 2:53:22.560 slack out of the system on the mechanical side and 2:53:22.640 --> 2:53:25.039 on the production side of it, on all the physical side. 2:53:25.320 --> 2:53:28.920 The only slack left is people, and they have stretched 2:53:29.000 --> 2:53:32.640 us all to the absolute breaking point. Now I'm lucky, 2:53:33.000 --> 2:53:37.320 relatively speaking in that I'm salary so like I'm more 2:53:37.400 --> 2:53:40.920 on the inventory side of things, so I'm not doing 2:53:41.000 --> 2:53:43.280 the hourly production, seven day a week thing. Like I said, 2:53:43.280 --> 2:53:48.120 I work four twelves um. But I can still you know, 2:53:48.200 --> 2:53:51.360 and that that's this job, every other previous job not 2:53:51.480 --> 2:53:54.480 the same thing. But I can still see where they've 2:53:54.560 --> 2:53:58.560 taken out. Like once again, we used to have spares 2:53:58.600 --> 2:54:00.520 on the shelf so that when something broke down we 2:54:00.560 --> 2:54:03.080 could fix the machine and keep running. Now instead of 2:54:03.160 --> 2:54:06.800 the spare, the spare is people working weekends. That's the 2:54:06.879 --> 2:54:10.440 spare part. And that makes total sense, right, You're you're 2:54:10.560 --> 2:54:15.600 the capitalist. A better spare that is a part on 2:54:15.640 --> 2:54:17.800 the shelf costs you money in terms of like you 2:54:17.840 --> 2:54:19.880 need to have that space, that's extra rent you're paying. 2:54:19.920 --> 2:54:22.680 You need to have bought that part. Having your people 2:54:22.840 --> 2:54:26.480 just killed themselves is much cheaper. You can sort of 2:54:26.560 --> 2:54:28.760 misuse the marks here, right, or like one of Mark's 2:54:28.840 --> 2:54:31.840 things is like, okay, well, you know you have you 2:54:31.920 --> 2:54:33.920 have this increased machinery. You have this increased machinery, but 2:54:33.920 --> 2:54:36.600 that means you're producing less value because you know, you've 2:54:36.640 --> 2:54:38.400 you put more people out of work. Was like, okay, well, 2:54:38.480 --> 2:54:40.800 what if what if we just we re extend the 2:54:40.879 --> 2:54:43.959 work day again and sort of you know, reverse all 2:54:44.000 --> 2:54:46.080 of the gains that have been happening. Well, okay, I 2:54:46.120 --> 2:54:48.520 say have been happening, reverse all the gains that happened 2:54:48.560 --> 2:54:51.400 between about nineteen thirty and like nineteen seventy, and just 2:54:52.200 --> 2:54:53.520 oh well, what if we just make everyone for a 2:54:53.560 --> 2:54:56.840 twelve hour days again? And that that was you know, 2:54:56.920 --> 2:54:58.800 one of that was the thing that would struck me 2:54:59.040 --> 2:55:00.760 both listening to this and reading threat, was that it's 2:55:02.000 --> 2:55:05.240 it's not even just wages, it's just it's it's it's 2:55:05.280 --> 2:55:08.560 it's just the fundamental power rebalance. And then it's a 2:55:08.560 --> 2:55:10.959 fundamental power and balance. It's gotten so bad that even 2:55:11.160 --> 2:55:14.440 like you know, the the like sometimes the remains of 2:55:14.480 --> 2:55:16.600 the union system, it's like it's not even you know, 2:55:16.800 --> 2:55:19.800 the the unions like in this particure case like this 2:55:19.879 --> 2:55:21.640 is they're not even it's not even really helping. It's 2:55:21.640 --> 2:55:23.840 just creating, like you have a small labor aristocracy that 2:55:23.879 --> 2:55:25.880 you have everyone else could be getting just like ground down. 2:55:26.360 --> 2:55:28.560 In this case, it's that we've got we've got a 2:55:28.600 --> 2:55:30.560 small core of people who have been there twenty or 2:55:30.640 --> 2:55:35.520 thirty years. And and whereas before, maybe even ten years ago, 2:55:36.320 --> 2:55:38.200 they might have viewed the union as a vehicle to 2:55:38.280 --> 2:55:41.600 help everybody, things have gotten so bad that now it's 2:55:41.720 --> 2:55:44.720 just okay, I'm going to use this system as much 2:55:44.760 --> 2:55:48.160 as i can to cover my own ass because things 2:55:48.240 --> 2:55:53.040 have gotten so damn bad. And obviously, you know, Reagan 2:55:53.120 --> 2:55:55.240 destroying the unions and stuff like that help with that. 2:55:55.400 --> 2:55:58.840 But yeah, it's that I and I feel like the 2:55:59.000 --> 2:56:02.160 union in in my job could be very helpful, um, 2:56:02.680 --> 2:56:06.840 but it would require certain people in it too, instead 2:56:06.879 --> 2:56:09.879 of looking out for just their own interest, because hey, 2:56:09.959 --> 2:56:12.600 I've been here twenty five years, so I'm in the clear. 2:56:13.520 --> 2:56:19.040 Like actually, go, okay, maybe I should you know, sacrifice 2:56:19.040 --> 2:56:21.880 a little bit of of that power or that privilege 2:56:22.280 --> 2:56:24.680 to help the people who are just hiring in so 2:56:24.879 --> 2:56:27.680 that we can keep them, so that that this doesn't 2:56:27.760 --> 2:56:30.640 have to keep happening. Yeah, and it's you know, this 2:56:30.840 --> 2:56:32.480 is one of the things that has made the John 2:56:32.560 --> 2:56:36.119 Dear strike, that made it so powerful, was these those 2:56:36.200 --> 2:56:38.720 older workers who I mean that they had a tiered system, right, 2:56:38.760 --> 2:56:40.720 So you have workers hired I think before like ninety 2:56:41.000 --> 2:56:44.080 seven got a full pension, and then like after ninety 2:56:44.120 --> 2:56:46.119 seven was like a third of that, and then workers 2:56:46.240 --> 2:56:47.920 hired in the last couple of years weren't getting any 2:56:47.920 --> 2:56:49.520 pension at all. And a big part of the strike 2:56:49.680 --> 2:56:53.160 is like all of the workers saying that's not acceptable, um, 2:56:53.200 --> 2:56:55.480 including the ones who had a full pension, who had 2:56:55.520 --> 2:56:57.320 some of a pension, like saying that, like the fact 2:56:57.400 --> 2:56:59.640 that the newer people are getting screwed over is an acceptable. 2:57:00.080 --> 2:57:03.120 And I've heard different reasons for why that happened, because 2:57:03.480 --> 2:57:05.800 this is this tactic what you're talking about, and kind 2:57:05.840 --> 2:57:07.920 of like what happened to John Deere, it was a 2:57:07.959 --> 2:57:09.920 common tactic. You know. It's the thing we talked about 2:57:09.920 --> 2:57:12.360 in colonialism all the time. You want to divide the 2:57:12.440 --> 2:57:15.600 population against you know, each other, each other one way 2:57:15.680 --> 2:57:17.400 or the other. Give them like make make them feel 2:57:17.440 --> 2:57:20.040 as if their interests are not necessarily aligned, you know, 2:57:20.120 --> 2:57:23.600 so the people who um, and there's reasons. I've heard 2:57:23.600 --> 2:57:26.800 different reasons for why John Deere was different, including the 2:57:26.879 --> 2:57:29.320 idea that like a lot of these are family jobs, 2:57:29.360 --> 2:57:31.600 so it was not people. It was people being like, well, 2:57:31.640 --> 2:57:35.480 my kid's not going to get a pension, and that's bullshit. Um. Anyway, Yeah, 2:57:35.520 --> 2:57:38.600 I just it's it's it's important to talk about like 2:57:38.879 --> 2:57:42.480 that as a problem, and also to highlight different strikes 2:57:42.560 --> 2:57:44.840 where that seems to have been overcome by the workers, 2:57:44.959 --> 2:57:46.960 like this fact that they were attempted to be played 2:57:46.959 --> 2:57:50.440 against each other didn't really work out, and where in 2:57:50.520 --> 2:57:53.840 my case it very much is like another another example 2:57:53.959 --> 2:57:57.280 being so we'll have people who are are lower on 2:57:57.360 --> 2:58:00.160 the seniority list and like let's say, for example, well 2:58:00.280 --> 2:58:03.680 one weekend we're running lines three and five and not 2:58:03.800 --> 2:58:09.000 the other two. The newer people might only know stuff 2:58:09.080 --> 2:58:14.680 online four. But if the new people don't get scheduled 2:58:14.720 --> 2:58:16.840 to do something, even if they're just being forced in 2:58:16.920 --> 2:58:19.640 to sweep the floor, the people who have the higher 2:58:19.680 --> 2:58:22.960 seniority will throw a fit saying, well, they're lower seniority, 2:58:22.959 --> 2:58:25.360 why aren't they in here as opposed to well, because 2:58:25.360 --> 2:58:27.879 they can't run that machine. And then they don't want 2:58:27.879 --> 2:58:30.520 to train them to run that machine. It's it's very 2:58:31.040 --> 2:58:34.040 they've managed to succeed where the John Deer capitalists might 2:58:34.080 --> 2:58:38.520 have failed in making this all about like all right working. 2:58:38.800 --> 2:58:42.280 And I don't blame the people who have the higher 2:58:42.320 --> 2:58:45.000 seniority on this because if my you know, if if 2:58:45.040 --> 2:58:48.199 you're working, conditions are hell and you have the option 2:58:48.320 --> 2:58:51.840 of okay, well, on a short term scale, I can 2:58:51.920 --> 2:58:56.320 screw over this other person and actually see my family 2:58:56.440 --> 2:58:59.120 once in a while. Most people are gonna do it, 2:59:00.360 --> 2:59:02.800 especially if that person is somebody who just hired in 2:59:02.920 --> 2:59:05.800 that you don't know, we'll screre that guy. And that's 2:59:05.879 --> 2:59:09.440 where once again, if unions were stronger, if there was 2:59:09.480 --> 2:59:11.280 more than what is it right now, like to three 2:59:11.959 --> 2:59:16.000 of jobs or a union job. But unions have been 2:59:16.080 --> 2:59:19.880 so like just weakened that this sort of situation is 2:59:19.879 --> 2:59:24.400 allowed to happen, I guess you could say, and I think, yeah, 2:59:24.480 --> 2:59:26.520 that comes back to just like the solute, the solution 2:59:26.560 --> 2:59:30.800 to the supply chain problem isn't really like it's it's 2:59:30.840 --> 2:59:33.200 it's it's not it's not a logistical solution. It's not 2:59:33.280 --> 2:59:35.760 even really like a capital gained solution, like a tax solution. 2:59:35.800 --> 2:59:39.360 The solution is that you know, you have to fundamentally 2:59:39.440 --> 2:59:43.000 change the balance of power between capital and labor, and 2:59:43.640 --> 2:59:44.960 you know, I mean that and that and that that 2:59:45.080 --> 2:59:47.160 can be like you know, I think things will get 2:59:47.240 --> 2:59:50.680 better if it's if it's more unions, but like things 2:59:50.720 --> 2:59:54.240 are going to continue to suck until like the capitalists 2:59:54.240 --> 2:59:57.320 ceased to exist as a class. Yeah, And I think 2:59:57.440 --> 3:00:02.200 that's like that that's because yeah, that's always the and 3:00:02.280 --> 3:00:04.760 it's one of those like we get we get critiqued 3:00:04.840 --> 3:00:08.400 on the internets sometimes because I think people will will say, like, well, 3:00:08.959 --> 3:00:10.960 you know, is your only solution to this? You keep 3:00:10.959 --> 3:00:13.560 talking about like mutual aid and anarchism, and like I 3:00:13.680 --> 3:00:16.920 just don't feel like that's a big scale solutions. Like yeah, 3:00:17.000 --> 3:00:19.280 but the current system isn't going to work very well 3:00:19.400 --> 3:00:21.480 on a big scale. Part of what we're always talking 3:00:21.560 --> 3:00:24.320 about is like how to how to get your how 3:00:24.360 --> 3:00:27.080 to get yourself and your people through the situation, because 3:00:27.160 --> 3:00:29.720 that's also important, and it's the same thing with like 3:00:29.840 --> 3:00:32.840 a union, right unionizing you and your fellow laborers and 3:00:32.920 --> 3:00:35.880 your factory, or or making your union more effective and 3:00:35.920 --> 3:00:38.320 more able to like advocate for everyone. That's not going 3:00:38.360 --> 3:00:40.560 to fix the bigger problem. That's not going to deal 3:00:40.680 --> 3:00:43.200 with the the issues that like, that's not going to 3:00:43.440 --> 3:00:45.959 stop climate change, that's not going to stop supply line 3:00:45.959 --> 3:00:47.720 crunches in a grand scale, it's not going to stop 3:00:48.000 --> 3:00:50.720 creeping authoritarianism. But it can make life more bearable for 3:00:50.800 --> 3:00:52.920 you and the people around you. And that's that's also 3:00:53.080 --> 3:00:58.240 part of like getting by in a crumbling world about yeah, 3:00:58.760 --> 3:01:04.200 and yep, it's it requires a bit of more foresight, 3:01:04.840 --> 3:01:07.160 which I think was one of the other purposes behind 3:01:07.400 --> 3:01:09.960 working us as many hours as they do. Is when 3:01:10.040 --> 3:01:14.480 you're so fucking tired all the time from working what 3:01:14.600 --> 3:01:16.880 you're working, you don't have time to stop and think 3:01:16.879 --> 3:01:21.120 about the larger implications of things. M hm and yeah, 3:01:22.200 --> 3:01:25.440 And that's part of what they're going for. Yep. Yeah. 3:01:25.840 --> 3:01:28.600 So I don't know anyone else get anything. Well, I 3:01:28.640 --> 3:01:30.400 guess just the clear solution of this is that I 3:01:30.480 --> 3:01:32.600 need to just stuck up on Bang, right, I just 3:01:32.680 --> 3:01:36.000 need to buy all I can because I love Bang I. 3:01:36.600 --> 3:01:44.360 I can't stop drinking Bang I will I'm scared of 3:01:44.440 --> 3:01:47.600 how much Bag I drink. I will say. One of 3:01:47.720 --> 3:01:51.520 one of the wonderful mutual aid solutions is if you're very, 3:01:51.640 --> 3:01:54.680 very nice to the syrup mixing people. They will be 3:01:54.840 --> 3:01:57.240 kind to you if you are working a double and 3:01:57.320 --> 3:01:59.240 they will give you a shot of the energy drink 3:01:59.240 --> 3:02:03.960 syrup before it been mixed. Oh my god, oh boy. 3:02:04.560 --> 3:02:10.640 You should you should not have told Garrison that a problem. 3:02:11.600 --> 3:02:14.480 Garrison's going to quit his job podcasting just to be 3:02:14.600 --> 3:02:18.879 able to get just gonna shooting up energy drink here 3:02:18.920 --> 3:02:21.480 on out. That's all I'm doing with my time. I'm 3:02:22.000 --> 3:02:25.080 I'm leaving, leaving the call right now, finding the nearest factory. 3:02:25.480 --> 3:02:29.240 And my second day on the on the job in 3:02:29.320 --> 3:02:31.920 the soda manufacturing thing, I had a twenty four pack 3:02:32.000 --> 3:02:36.160 of energy drink explode all over me change of clothes, 3:02:36.360 --> 3:02:38.800 and that's when I learned that caffeine and touring can 3:02:38.840 --> 3:02:43.480 soak through your skin. Oh yes, I mean basically was 3:02:43.680 --> 3:02:47.160 seeing sound? Okay. So I I've just been looking up 3:02:47.240 --> 3:02:49.800 inflatable hot tubs and I feel like if I could 3:02:49.920 --> 3:02:53.280 order enough pure energy drink syrup in an inflatable hot tub, 3:02:53.360 --> 3:02:57.800 I could build basically the equivalent of Baron Harconan's rejuvenation bath, 3:02:58.920 --> 3:03:01.760 but with like Peter Bang syrup. That is that is, 3:03:01.840 --> 3:03:05.160 that is my plan. Just twelve caffeine and Tori, it's 3:03:05.200 --> 3:03:06.960 just gonna be we're all gonna quit our jobs. We're 3:03:06.959 --> 3:03:08.560 just gonna have the same amount of money. They get 3:03:08.640 --> 3:03:13.560 slower over time because we're again spending it all on banks. Obviously, 3:03:13.680 --> 3:03:16.240 you need you need the inside person to supply you 3:03:16.360 --> 3:03:18.080 with the syrup. So we'll just have sort of an 3:03:18.120 --> 3:03:20.520 Ocean's eleven situation where you guys pull up to the 3:03:20.600 --> 3:03:24.160 loading dock and with a tanker and I'm just hooking 3:03:24.200 --> 3:03:27.119 the truck up. You know, it's gonna be like Scarface, 3:03:27.480 --> 3:03:30.960 but we're selling pure syrup. And then Garrison loses his 3:03:31.120 --> 3:03:34.160 mind and winds up in a machine gun fight in 3:03:34.200 --> 3:03:37.400 a mansion, and when instead of burying his face into 3:03:37.480 --> 3:03:39.879 a mountain of cocaine, he's instead got just a little 3:03:42.000 --> 3:03:44.360 he's just sticking his hand into a bowl of syrup 3:03:44.480 --> 3:03:49.800 to absorb the caffeinated nutrients. When I when I p 3:03:49.920 --> 3:03:52.920 it's just gonna be straight syrup. Now that is yeah. Anyway, 3:03:53.280 --> 3:03:59.160 Well that's the episode where if people want to find 3:03:59.240 --> 3:04:01.760 you a lot where and they find you? So I 3:04:01.959 --> 3:04:04.760 host along with my husband and our friend Justin, we 3:04:04.879 --> 3:04:09.160 host a trans comedy and pop culture podcast where we 3:04:09.240 --> 3:04:14.519 also interview interesting people. Um it's called the Violet Wanderers. 3:04:14.879 --> 3:04:17.280 So you can find us on Twitter at violet Wanderers 3:04:18.040 --> 3:04:21.400 or the Violet Wanderers dot com or email the Violet 3:04:21.440 --> 3:04:25.280 wanders at gmail dot com. And that's basically that's my 3:04:25.520 --> 3:04:28.200 Twitter handle. And I just slowly got sucked into the 3:04:28.280 --> 3:04:30.920 Twitter hellscape where yeah that happens. Originally one on just 3:04:31.040 --> 3:04:33.000 like oh, I'm gonna just promote my show, and then 3:04:33.040 --> 3:04:34.960 I started responding to people and before you know what, 3:04:35.000 --> 3:04:38.560 I'm writing twenty tweet rants about just in time on 3:04:38.680 --> 3:04:41.920 my stupid gay podcast account. I got into Twitter to 3:04:42.000 --> 3:04:44.880 converse with a young Justice podcast and that's why I 3:04:44.920 --> 3:04:47.600 created my Twitter accounts. And here I am now So 3:04:48.840 --> 3:04:50.520 I was trying to get a planet side to Beta 3:04:50.640 --> 3:04:54.400 Key and I got it. But the consequences where I 3:04:54.520 --> 3:04:58.320 am now here, Yeah Twitter, Twitter, Twitter, and it's consequences 3:04:58.680 --> 3:05:02.120 disaster for your you're this, You're such a child. I 3:05:02.320 --> 3:05:06.240 remember the first Planet Side Betaday, Chris. It was an 3:05:06.280 --> 3:05:10.200 age and dreamed of. Oh Chris, and you all are 3:05:10.240 --> 3:05:12.600 welcome to come on the show anytime. I will. I 3:05:12.640 --> 3:05:15.720 will bother you to come on my show sometime. Excellent. Yeah, 3:05:17.200 --> 3:05:22.480 plugs plugs probably. Yeah. Yeah, Like I said, the Violet 3:05:22.560 --> 3:05:27.640 Wanderers were on Apple, were on Spotify, were on podcast Addict, whatever, 3:05:27.879 --> 3:05:31.640 you know, it's all your major podcast platforms. Uh. The 3:05:31.879 --> 3:05:36.240 tagline of the show is made for no one, So, um, 3:05:36.680 --> 3:05:39.280 expect a lot of queer humor, a lot of me 3:05:39.920 --> 3:05:44.480 calling my husband a slut, and us talking about video games, 3:05:44.520 --> 3:05:49.000 comic books, movies, and then occasionally just randomly interviewing really 3:05:49.080 --> 3:05:51.360 interesting people who I harassed into coming on the show, 3:05:52.360 --> 3:05:54.879 like which Robert I know, you know Daniel Harper from 3:05:54.920 --> 3:05:58.600 I Don't speak German. He's been on a few times. Um, 3:05:58.760 --> 3:06:02.520 we've had him on and had some fun talking about Nazis, 3:06:02.680 --> 3:06:06.560 which ye teams kind of you know, counterintuitive, but there's 3:06:06.560 --> 3:06:08.320 a lot of humor that can be found in Nazis 3:06:08.320 --> 3:06:10.720 if you know the right places to look. And yeah, 3:06:10.840 --> 3:06:13.720 I you know what, I just watched a German language 3:06:13.760 --> 3:06:17.120 movie about Hitler that was made in two thousand seven 3:06:17.280 --> 3:06:20.280 by a Jewish German comedian that includes I've watched a 3:06:20.320 --> 3:06:23.039 lot of Hitler movies, you know, periodically, I just get 3:06:23.080 --> 3:06:25.040 on Netflix and Hulu type and Hitler just kind of 3:06:25.080 --> 3:06:27.920 watch whatever is there. This is the first time I 3:06:28.000 --> 3:06:30.880 have seen Hitler fucking in a movie. I've never seen 3:06:30.959 --> 3:06:33.760 anybody who had the courage to do that. And he 3:06:33.959 --> 3:06:37.360 is just yeah, he's it's it's uncoming as one ball 3:06:37.560 --> 3:06:39.720 just swinging in the land. It is. It is an 3:06:39.840 --> 3:06:42.920 uncomfortable scene, but not the most uncomfortable scene in that 3:06:43.000 --> 3:06:47.800 particular movie. Um, it's quite a film, that's asn't say, 3:06:47.840 --> 3:06:50.400 that's pretty amazing. But yeah, come on, come on sometime 3:06:50.879 --> 3:06:53.480 we'll play around vin Selmageddon, which is a game that 3:06:53.520 --> 3:06:56.280 I've created, and uh, you know, if you guys don't 3:06:56.280 --> 3:06:58.760 want to kill yourselves afterwards, then hey, you survived the game. 3:06:58.920 --> 3:07:00.440 As long as I can get some start up out 3:07:00.440 --> 3:07:02.320 of the deal, that's that's all I want. I will, 3:07:02.520 --> 3:07:04.720 I will, I will smuggle you some syrup out and 3:07:04.760 --> 3:07:07.800 mail it to you. Okay, alright, that's that's gonna do 3:07:07.920 --> 3:07:09.600 it for all of us here today that it could 3:07:09.640 --> 3:07:14.199 happen here until next time. I don't know. Go go read, 3:07:14.520 --> 3:07:18.760 Go read The Dawn of Everything. It's good, it's worth reading. 3:07:19.240 --> 3:07:32.920 Check it out. Hey, We'll be back Monday with more 3:07:33.000 --> 3:07:35.640 episodes every week from now until the heat Death of 3:07:35.680 --> 3:07:38.440 the Universe. It could happen here is a production of 3:07:38.480 --> 3:07:41.400 cool zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 3:07:41.520 --> 3:07:43.959 visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check 3:07:44.040 --> 3:07:46.280 us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 3:07:46.400 --> 3:07:49.400 or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can find sources 3:07:49.440 --> 3:07:52.000 for It could happen here, updated monthly at cool zone 3:07:52.000 --> 3:07:54.760 media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.