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Speaker 1: This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening past, you

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything brought to you by first Light. When

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Speaker 1: I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds,

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Speaker 1: no compromise, gear that keeps me in the field longer,

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Speaker 1: no shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out at

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Speaker 1: first light dot com. That's f I R S T

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Speaker 1: L I T E dot com.

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Speaker 2: Guy, I got.

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Speaker 1: I got two competing ways I want to start the show.

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Speaker 1: One I just have to admit that I'm so excited

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Speaker 1: I already wet my pants. There's one like this is

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Speaker 1: this is the one of This is one of the

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Speaker 1: most exciting conversations for me because this is something that

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Speaker 1: I like, I'll just come out and say, here, we're

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Speaker 1: here to talk about the the Edmund Fitzgerald, which is

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Speaker 1: like weird, like I was one year old, but when

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Speaker 1: it happened, but it's it's sort of I don't know,

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Speaker 1: man has haunted and inspired my whole life being from

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Speaker 1: that neck of the woods.

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Speaker 2: Sure. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The second opening I was gonna use is how I've

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Speaker 1: never done this before, but I want to dedicate this

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Speaker 1: episode drows fits poot mcgoot, my brother Danny. This one's

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Speaker 1: for you and everyone at the porthole in Sue Saint

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Speaker 1: Marie Michigan side.

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Speaker 2: Been there, You guys better notice there are two talents

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Speaker 2: called Su Saint Marie right across the river from each other,

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Speaker 2: because why wouldn't you do that?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: One's us one's Canada. Canada produces NHL Hall of Famers,

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Speaker 2: the Esposito brothers, Tony and Phil, et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: Gretzky played there for a while. Uh. The American side

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Speaker 2: produces guys like us.

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Speaker 1: When I went to one of the times I saw

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Speaker 1: Uncle Gord was at at the hockey arena in Siue, Ontario.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, I've been to that where the Greyhounds play.

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Speaker 1: He Uh, I'll introduce you in a minute.

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Speaker 2: Don't worry, we'll get to that.

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Speaker 1: I tell the story every other episode. We're sitting there

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Speaker 1: and we're watching Uncle Gordon. You know, I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: Gordon Lightfoot and he's doing his show. He's got a

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Speaker 1: lot of hits. People don't realize how he hiss. Then yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're in the book, but then later in the app

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Speaker 1: later and not the episode later in the concert. This

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Speaker 1: will kind of date it because your book The Gales

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Speaker 1: of November, The Untold Story of the Edmond Fitzgerald by

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Speaker 1: John you Bacon. Should you want to find out what

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Speaker 1: the U stands for? Good luck? Not ulysses.

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Speaker 2: He's very tight lift about it.

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Speaker 1: Uh, at that the fiftieth we're at the fiftieth anniversary

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Speaker 1: of the sinking or the wreck of the Edmin Fitzgerald,

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Speaker 1: and your book's perfectly timed. I read you that you

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Speaker 1: wrote a proposal for this book decades ago or something.

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Speaker 2: I did twenty years ago, pitched it to my agent.

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Speaker 2: He said no, So I got a new agent.

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Speaker 1: As one does. You don't get no answer you want,

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Speaker 1: because I'm struggling with that professionally this morning.

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Speaker 2: Just this very morning.

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Speaker 1: Anyhow, at that time, I can't remember what year it was.

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Speaker 1: It would have been around ninety four, ninety five. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you're by twenty and I think and I remember, it

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Speaker 1: gets quiet. Gord comes out. The lights are down, and

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Speaker 1: Gord says, it'll be He says something to the fact

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Speaker 1: of like it'll be twenty years this November, wow, or

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Speaker 1: it'll be blank in the place. Just I mean erupts oh, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: no erupts. But that's home turf.

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Speaker 2: That's very much home turf.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you're looking out you know, you're looking

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Speaker 1: out on white We used to fish in Whitefish Bay

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Speaker 1: and like dude, and when we're out there spearing spearing

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Speaker 1: whiting or sorry, spearing whitefish, we'd always be talking about yeah, man,

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Speaker 1: and telling people like, that's where if you're fishing in

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Speaker 1: Whitefish Bay.

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Speaker 2: Whitefish Bay Lakes Pier's one hundred and sixty miles by

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Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty miles. It's as big as the

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Speaker 2: state of Virginia. It's bigger than Ireland. People don't realize

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Speaker 2: this unless you get up there. If you're up there,

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Speaker 2: of course, you can't see across any of the Great Lakes.

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Speaker 2: If you' in the middle of Lake Superior, you can't

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Speaker 2: see either side. It's not because of the mist of

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Speaker 2: the fog. It's because the curvature of the earth. It's

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Speaker 2: just too damn big. So there you go. So if

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Speaker 2: you're out there by the way, you know what you're

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Speaker 2: doing obviously. And sus Marie is where the Sioux Locks are.

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Speaker 2: That's the bottleneck of US industry. So all the iron ore,

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Speaker 2: the copper I know you guys got it here in butte.

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Speaker 2: The copper, the iron ore limestone all comes from the

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Speaker 2: northern part of the Great Lakes, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Upper Peninsula.

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Speaker 2: It's got to go through this one spigot, this very

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Speaker 2: tight widget at the sew locks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because Lake Superior falls twenty three feet to Lake

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Speaker 1: Huron or something.

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Speaker 2: Well done, young man. This guy, this guy passes.

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Speaker 1: Caught many a fish out of those falls.

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Speaker 2: There you go, exactly, it's a good place to catch him. Actually,

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Speaker 2: so during World War two they built a new lock

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Speaker 2: because I had to get all the iron and all

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Speaker 2: the steel from up there down to build. It will

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Speaker 2: run where the Ford Motor Company was. If you've seen

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Speaker 2: fer Our versus Ford, that's what it's all about. They're

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Speaker 2: cranking out one B twenty four bomber an hour every

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Speaker 2: hour for three years. During World War two. They build

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Speaker 2: a new again, one B twenty four bomber which has

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Speaker 2: one point five million parts. I looked it up. They've

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Speaker 2: created out one per hour every hour for three years, NonStop.

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Speaker 2: As Rosie the Riveter, all this.

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Speaker 1: Stuff almost as fast as they were shooting down.

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Speaker 2: Almost as fast, but not quite as fast. That's how

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Speaker 2: you win the war. Yeah, so FDR during World War

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Speaker 2: two stations seven thousand soldiers where you were at the

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Speaker 2: Seoux Locks. It was the most guarded position in North

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Speaker 2: America during World War Two.

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Speaker 1: Seriously, yes, because they're worried about sabateurs.

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Speaker 2: If they bomb that, there's no steal for the planes,

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Speaker 2: no steal for the planes and the tanks and the shells,

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Speaker 2: we lose the war. And after your knew.

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Speaker 1: That, but who, like, who were they thinking would have

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Speaker 1: been like they didn't mean like an aerial bombardment from

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Speaker 1: enemy aircraft.

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Speaker 2: We can get there, But I would.

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Speaker 1: Picture like, like like I said, saboteurs, like someone plant explosives.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess that's possible to look, the eyds aren't

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Speaker 2: very good. Obviously they didn't do it right.

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Speaker 1: So they recognized that.

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Speaker 2: It was like, but if it happens, it's over.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna live sort of like the paraneum of the world.

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Speaker 2: Man paranem See, these are the things I don't get normally.

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Speaker 3: That's the name of the episode.

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Speaker 4: That's Yeah, I gotta stay in newsed for this when

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Speaker 4: people I've done about thirty forty interviews, we've done CBS

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Speaker 4: and everything else. Yeah, I gotta, I got, I gotta

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Speaker 4: wide my strikes on here a little bit.

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Speaker 5: We should just have a list of words when they're

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Speaker 5: used for the first time in here.

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Speaker 1: I think istanbul probably is a good is another candidate.

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Speaker 1: Here's a word that has been used on this show.

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Speaker 1: Hampton Sides. Hampton Side has been on the show a

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Speaker 1: couple of times. Here's what hampton Side says about the

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Speaker 1: gales November. Here is a work of spectral beauty destined

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Speaker 1: to be a classic. Readers of Sebastian Younger's The Perfect Storm,

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Speaker 1: he's been on the show. Eric Larson's Dead Wake, we

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Speaker 1: should put that on our list of people get on

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Speaker 1: the show. And Nathaniel Philbricks in the Heart of the

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Speaker 1: Sea will love this deeply reported tale from our vast

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Speaker 1: inland ocean. With John H. Bacon's graceful and poignant retelling,

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Speaker 1: the Saga of the Edmund Fitzgerald now takes its rightful

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Speaker 1: place among the world's greatest legends of shipwrecks and tapentuous, tempetuous, tempestuous.

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Speaker 2: You got it?

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Speaker 1: Who got it?

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Speaker 2: You got it? Tempestuous sees.

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Speaker 1: It's from hands and Sides. There's a bunch of good

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Speaker 1: quotes on the back here, ken Burns, he's been on

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Speaker 1: the show. John U. Bacon has done it again. This

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Speaker 1: is another riveting narrative that puts facts on a still

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Speaker 1: memorizing legend. But this is more than getting the details right.

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Speaker 1: Bacon has distilled the essence of the story and rendered

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Speaker 1: a huge monument to those lost, to those lost, and

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Speaker 1: a great gift to the rest of us. Ken Burns filmmaker,

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk in I've read it. I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you what I did do is I looked at some

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Speaker 1: of the pictures. It's just heartbreaking to see the pictures

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Speaker 1: of the guys. I had a weirdly in my life.

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Speaker 1: I realized I've never looked at a picture of anyone

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Speaker 1: that died on that boat.

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Speaker 2: Stephen is exactly why I wrote the book. Wrote the

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Speaker 2: boat book. I can't get that word right. And people

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Speaker 2: ask me what drovee me? I yes, I want to

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Speaker 2: find out what happened, And that's always part of the

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Speaker 2: mystery here, of course, and we advanced certain theories and

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Speaker 2: we've probably diminished other theories. But I'm not here to

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Speaker 2: close that loop because you really can't. There are no witnesses.

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Speaker 2: All twenty nine men went down with the ship. Aunt Ruth,

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Speaker 2: who's the mother of Bruce Hudson, Ohio State student who

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Speaker 2: takes a couple of summers to get in the lakes.

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Speaker 2: He's a twenty two year old deckhand who goes down

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Speaker 2: with the ship and that's her only child, which I

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Speaker 2: can't fathom. She had a great line, she said, only thirty, no,

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Speaker 2: twenty nine men in God, and no one's talking, so

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Speaker 2: we're all trying to guess. So what did drive me?

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Speaker 2: And that's what it was. Who were these twenty nine

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Speaker 2: men all right? What were their jobs like? What were

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Speaker 2: their lives like, over their families like at home? I

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Speaker 2: interviewed half the families they talked for the first time this.

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Speaker 2: I got six crewmen who'd been on the ship obviously

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Speaker 2: before it went down, and those are not easy to find.

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Speaker 2: There's no list anywhere, and I got them all the

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Speaker 2: talk and it's just fascinating how it all works, and

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Speaker 2: I learned the process. Here's a fun fact for your

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Speaker 2: listeners who would be into this. For sure, you talked

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Speaker 2: to Great Lakes sailors by that know me of the

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Speaker 2: guys with the sales. Of course, these are commercial shippers.

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Speaker 2: Copper said, copper iron, all this stuff. They tell me

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Speaker 2: consistently that sailing on the Great Lakes is more dangerous

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Speaker 2: than sailing on the ocean, and that blew my mind.

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Speaker 2: I grew up on the Great Lakes, so did you?

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Speaker 2: How can that possibly be? And it's a few reasons.

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Speaker 2: One is saltwater, saltwater on the ocean on the Great Lakes.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, do hand gestures work really well

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Speaker 2: on radio?

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Speaker 1: I bet some people it depends on how you're listening.

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Speaker 2: Well, if you've got the premium package, you'll get this one.

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Speaker 2: So on the Great Lakes you got these sharp, pointy

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Speaker 2: waves at the top like mountain ranges basically on the

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Speaker 2: On the ocean, the salt smashes those down, so the

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Speaker 2: nice and smooth so right, yeah, you get smooth roller coasters,

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Speaker 2: and they're twice as far apart. It spreads them out.

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Speaker 2: And on the ocean you get these storms from five

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Speaker 2: hundred miles away, a thousand miles away, So by the

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Speaker 2: time the waves get to you again, you have this

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Speaker 2: general roller coaster. Still no fun, and you've seen perfect storm,

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Speaker 2: but it's manageable. On the Great Lakes, they're sharp and

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Speaker 2: pointing like mountain ranges, they're twice as close to get.

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Speaker 2: On the ocean, they're ten to sixteen seconds apart. On

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Speaker 2: the Great Lakes are four to eight seconds apart. What

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Speaker 2: does that mean? That means you can have the bow

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Speaker 2: of your ship in one thirty foot wave, nothing in

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Speaker 2: the middle, and your stern in another thirty foot wave.

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Speaker 2: These ships are seven hundred feet long, and in between

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Speaker 2: you have twenty six thousand tons of iron. Oh that's

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Speaker 2: forty two hundred adult elephants. It's enough steel, enough irons

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Speaker 2: already to make seven thousand cars. What happens? It bends down,

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Speaker 2: it SAgs. Then you go over the next wave, and

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Speaker 2: it hogs, and it SAgs, and it hogs, SAgs and hugs.

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Speaker 2: Bend a paper clip back and forth ten thousand times?

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Speaker 2: Has how many waves you get in a day? What's

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Speaker 2: gonna happen? The paper clip's gonna snap sooner or later.

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Speaker 2: The Bradley nineteen fifty eight. I got a chapter on that.

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Speaker 2: We have witnesses it actually snaps in half between two waves. Really,

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Speaker 2: the morale not even six hundred feet Be sure that.

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Speaker 1: The bow and stern would I just imagine that the

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Speaker 1: bow and stern would cut in into the way. It

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Speaker 1: would never have enough to lift it like a it does.

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Speaker 1: These waves are lifts the center.

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Speaker 2: These waves are don't messing one with the waves, man.

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Speaker 2: One of these waves is the same weight as two

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Speaker 2: locomotive engines one wave. And these guys get these waves

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Speaker 2: every four to eight seconds. And the night of this

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Speaker 2: November tenth, nineteen seventy five, it's a storm of a century.

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Speaker 2: They got one hundred mile per hour winds. That's hurricane force.

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Speaker 2: At that point, the waves were thirty feet regularly, which

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Speaker 2: is still pretty intense. This ship only has eleven feet

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Speaker 2: out of the water, so thirty feet means you're underwater

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Speaker 2: twenty feet every time. This happens every four to eight seconds.

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Speaker 2: That takes a toll. But then we now know from

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Speaker 2: computer models that if you saw that many thirty footers,

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Speaker 2: you saw ten forty footers, you saw three or four

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Speaker 2: fifty footers, and you saw one or two sixty footers.

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Speaker 2: And as one of the experts toll me, this ship

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Speaker 2: ended up in exactly the wrong place at exactly the

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Speaker 2: wrong time, the only ship in that one hour area. Basically,

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Speaker 2: so there's part of your answer.

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Speaker 1: We started out talking about sorry.

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Speaker 2: Sorry about that tangent, but no.

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Speaker 1: No, you do that all day long for Ick Care.

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Speaker 1: We started out talking about Gordon Lightfoot as kind of

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Speaker 1: like a touch point where many many people, like undeniably

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Speaker 1: many people when they hear the Edmund Fitzgerald, they know

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Speaker 1: what that means because.

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Speaker 2: Of the song entirely, no question, do you You know?

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Speaker 1: I'm always interested in this concept of like there's like

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Speaker 1: a there's like an object, right, and then the object

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Speaker 1: has a shadow, you know what I mean, Like if

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Speaker 1: the object that's good, Like the object is the sinking

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Speaker 1: of the edm in Fitzgerald, and it's like shadow is

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Speaker 1: like that's perfect Gordon life was the wreck of the

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Speaker 1: Edmin Fitzgerald would like, in all honesty, would we be

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Speaker 1: sitting here right now if it wasn't for that song?

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Speaker 2: I will say it from them from the mountaintops. Absolutely not.

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Speaker 1: Really.

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Speaker 2: From eighteen seventy five to nineteen seventy five, there are

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Speaker 2: six thousand commercial shipwrecks on the Great Lakes. That's one

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Speaker 2: per week every week for a century. Oh man, really,

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Speaker 2: thirty thousand men went down. That's one a day every

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Speaker 2: day for a century. And how many do we know?

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Speaker 2: We know one, we know the em Memphis Geriald for

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Speaker 2: exactly the reason.

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Speaker 1: You see the sols the riff.

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Speaker 2: Hey, by the way, you non Michigan. I don't know

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Speaker 2: what he's talking about, but I do.

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Speaker 1: Well, that was the first ship.

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Speaker 2: That was the first ship.

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Speaker 1: It was the first ship on the Great Lakes and

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Speaker 1: the Eduond Fitzgerald's the biggest ship to ever sink.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right, and at the time the biggest ship

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Speaker 2: period on the lakes. But yeah, without that, there's no way.

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Speaker 2: There's six thousand we know one. Without the song, there

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Speaker 2: is no book. It's just that simple.

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Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, what, uh can you explain? You kind of

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Speaker 1: did a little bit, but can you explain that that? Uh? Well,

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Speaker 1: first I got another thing to mention. You're a sports writer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so what am I doing here? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So, like you've written books on hockey football? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I had you. Is this your first like foray into

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Speaker 1: kind of like deep history where you're not able to

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Speaker 1: meet the people involved?

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Speaker 2: And it's my second. The previous one was called the

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Speaker 2: Great Halifax Explosion. Oh that's right, from nineteen seventeen. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, from twenty seventeens when the book came out

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventeen. This ship called the Mountain Blanc World whe

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Speaker 2: one is leaving Gravesend Bay, New York. That's a pretty

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Speaker 2: good name with six million pounds graves End, graves End.

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Speaker 2: How about how prophetic? Right, It's leaving Gravesend Bay, New York,

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Speaker 2: basically New York with six million pounds of high explosives.

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Speaker 2: That's TNT, not gasoline like hauling, high explosive, hauling high exposive.

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Speaker 2: High explosives don't need oxygen to blow up. One good

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Speaker 2: bump and it happens, and it's in Halifax harboring. The

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Speaker 2: way to World War One, to blow up Germans is

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Speaker 2: the idea, I'm sure. And instead it bumps into another ship,

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Speaker 2: a fire starts. Well, the guys in the Mountain Blank

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Speaker 2: they know what the hell's going to happen, so they

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Speaker 2: get in the rowboats and get out of there. French crew.

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Speaker 2: The ship slips at eight forty five in the morning,

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Speaker 2: ghost ship slips perfectly into Pier six at the base

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Speaker 2: of Halifax. The timing's cruel because the kids are walking

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Speaker 2: to school, everyone's walking to work, and it's burning, so

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Speaker 2: they're not gonna come down to watch the burning ship.

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Speaker 2: They have no idea, what's on it?

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Speaker 1: And how long is this after everybody bailed off.

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Speaker 2: About fifteen minutes. Oh okay, very fast, so pretty fast. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And then at nine zero four point thirty five we

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Speaker 2: know exactly when because all clocks stopped. Two million high

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Speaker 2: two million, two mile high Marsha mc cloud, the first

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Speaker 2: in the world's history. One fifth part of the atomic

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Speaker 2: bomb blows half the city away of fifty four people.

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Speaker 2: And Oppenheimer, of course, who built the A bomb. You

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Speaker 2: see the movie oppenheimri talks about this. He's when he

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Speaker 2: did the math. The only model they head for Hiroshima

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Speaker 2: was this. So this one fifth the power of the

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Speaker 2: A bomb. But people in Boston sent two ships, two trains,

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Speaker 2: one hundred doctors, three hundred nurses, and a million bucks,

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Speaker 2: which back then is a lot of money. And they

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Speaker 2: of the nine thousand wounded, they saved like ninety five percent,

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Speaker 2: which it should not have happened with the medicine at

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Speaker 2: the time. That's what made the US and Canada allies.

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Speaker 2: And I know this because my mom's Canadian, So trust me,

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Speaker 2: if you want a different version of the War of

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Speaker 2: eighteen twelve, give a Canadian two beers and they're gonna

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Speaker 2: hear a whole different version of however all that went down.

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Speaker 2: So I'm a hockey guy. I speak of experience here,

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Speaker 2: except that was my first forest A long answer, Sorry,

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Speaker 2: I was my first fey into that that allowed me

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Speaker 2: to write this book. Without that book, the publishers never

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Speaker 2: would have given me money for this book. God, so

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Speaker 2: I prove I could get up.

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Speaker 1: For the Oh man, I think if you sent hell

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Speaker 1: whatever you got it published. I was gonna tell you

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Speaker 1: how you would have got it published. Anyways, Explain that,

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Speaker 1: Explain that, Explain the industry that the Edmun Fitzgerald was

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Speaker 1: involved in.

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Speaker 2: Great question. That's another thing, dude. Again, I grew up

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Speaker 2: in Annabra, Michigan, and not too far from Askegan. We

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Speaker 2: go up to Travers City and so on. I've I've

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Speaker 2: swam in all these lakes. I've sailed on two or

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Speaker 2: three of them. I thought I knew them. I didn't

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Speaker 2: know anything. Ninety five percent of the stuff in that

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Speaker 2: book I had no idea about it. And one thing

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Speaker 2: is how incredibly important Great lakes shipping is. The French voyagers.

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Speaker 2: Here's your here's your predecessors. Here in the Mediator podcast,

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Speaker 2: these guys are badasses. I can say that in your show,

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Speaker 2: and I can't say that normally. So I'm taking advantage.

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Speaker 2: Man Captain buzzkilled from my right over here, here's my

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Speaker 2: one chance. Finally, Uh, those voyagers had thirty forty foot

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Speaker 2: news carved out of one tree. They got four hundred

365
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Speaker 2: They got four hundred million beaver pelts in two centuries,

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Speaker 2: almost made beaver extinct. But they're wearing those hats in Europe,

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Speaker 2: so they that's billions of dollars of that. Then you

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Speaker 2: got lumber. More money is made by lumber than the

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Speaker 2: Gold Rush. You got grain. The Great Lakes supplies the

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Speaker 2: world with food basically, and a lot of your food

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Speaker 2: comes all the zero companies are based in Battle Creek, Michigan,

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Speaker 2: in Minneapolis, Minnesota for a reason. But then you got,

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Speaker 2: like I said, copper, which now you mine here limestones

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Speaker 2: you need to make turn iron into steel and iron.

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Speaker 2: It was it probably still is the biggest producer of

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Speaker 2: iron in the United States. Here's a fun fact for you.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen so this is Silicon Valley before Silicon Valley.

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Speaker 2: After World War Two, the Great Lake States. Five of

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Speaker 2: the top seven were all around the Great Lakes. Only

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Speaker 2: California and Texas were in that pile. Here's a fun

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Speaker 2: fat for you. Nineteen sixty census, what great lake city

382
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Speaker 2: was bigger in Miami, Tampa, Jacksonville, Nashville, and San Jose, California, Cleveland, Toledo, Toledo,

383
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Speaker 2: ohiout was bigger than all those. This is how big

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Speaker 2: it all was. So Detroit was the epicenter of all

385
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Speaker 2: this stuff. And I grew up in the shadow of

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Speaker 2: that one at that tail end of that. But this

387
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Speaker 2: is what they did. Thirty seven of the top hundred

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Speaker 2: companies were all based around Detroit. Tire makers, oil, oil companies,

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Speaker 2: steel companies, car companies, GM's number one, four, number three, Chryslers,

390
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Speaker 2: number seven. That's I mean. They had no competition after

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Speaker 2: World War Two. So this place is humming. They're making

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Speaker 2: a lot of money. And these guys, the guys twenty

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Speaker 2: nine guys in the ship, the old guys, they grew

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Speaker 2: up in the Great Depression, they grew up in the

395
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Speaker 2: World War Two. Why do you have? These jobs are hard,

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Speaker 2: no question about it. But man, compared to being a

397
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Speaker 2: miner or a farmer or a factory worker, you'd take it.

398
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Speaker 2: Good union contracts. These guys are making good money. A

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Speaker 2: deckhand and seventy five Bruce Hudson guy I mentioned, and

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Speaker 2: he gets out of Ohio State.

401
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Speaker 1: Is he the kid with no shirt on in the picture.

402
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Speaker 2: He's a badass. He's one of yours. And he's got

403
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 2: the long the mutton chops the long hair. Rand It

404
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 2: looks like Randall, he was. I like him. Already, there

405
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Speaker 2: you go, I'll show you. There you go, go to

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Speaker 2: the picture section. You'll know exactly what we're talking about.

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Speaker 6: That's what I do anyway when I.

408
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,760
Speaker 2: Pick up a book, the perfect you're my guy. So

409
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 2: this guy leaves Ohio State to be a deckhan. That's

410
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Speaker 2: the lowest guy in the ship. Basically, he's making, in

411
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Speaker 2: today's dollars, one hundred and eighty thousand dollars a year.

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Speaker 2: Even back then, he's making three times what a teacher

413
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Speaker 2: makes four times, and he's salting the money away except

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Speaker 2: for one indulgence. He's got a nineteen seventy two Dodge Challenger,

415
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Speaker 2: badass muscle car. Beautiful Burgundy. We found the car. It's

416
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,119
Speaker 2: still in mint condition. It's still fantastic. Still is a

417
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,040
Speaker 2: sticker of Columbia Transportation, which least the emphys Yerald, I'm

418
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 2: looking at it right now. There's the sticker right there. No, shoot,

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Speaker 2: that car. That was last year we took that photo.

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Speaker 1: I look through these pictures of my ten year old

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Speaker 1: this morning. Then I kind of choked up. We were

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Speaker 1: listening to.

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Speaker 2: The song We'll get You Once you know the story.

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Speaker 2: The song kills you. So he gets on the ship.

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Speaker 2: He's one of these guys and he's making good money.

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Speaker 2: He's saving it pretty well. So he and his buddy

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00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 2: Mark Thomas in that photo, they're gonna when the season

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00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,399
Speaker 2: ends in three days. This was the last run of

429
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,440
Speaker 2: the season. Oh no, matter what happened, they're gonna finish

430
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 2: the season. That car is waiting for him on the

431
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,960
Speaker 2: dock in Toledo three days later. The captain mcsordy. I'll

432
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:26,640
Speaker 2: get to him in a bit. He's going to retire

433
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,159
Speaker 2: after this run, after thirty some years, forty years in

434
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 2: the Great Lakes, promising his wife. All these guys. So

435
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 2: they're gonna get in that car and bomb across out

436
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,159
Speaker 2: west where you guys are to go to Colorado to

437
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 2: get some Coors beer because in nineteen twenty five that

438
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 2: was exotic and you gotta be old enough. Remember that

439
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:44,439
Speaker 2: one by the way.

440
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,560
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he used to make all those all those movies.

441
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,639
Speaker 1: You got it, Like Burt Reynolds built his career on

442
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:50,359
Speaker 1: this story.

443
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 6: That photo really is speaking to me.

444
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 2: There we go.

445
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,399
Speaker 5: I think, Ohio, Man, if I did a couple of

446
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,720
Speaker 5: cycles on a GLP one I think would be you'ld

447
00:21:58,720 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 5: be looking quite.

448
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 2: So well, le man. One third of the crew comes

449
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 2: from to luth one third from Toledo, one third from Cleveland.

450
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,200
Speaker 2: So a lot of Buckeys. This guy was a Buckey also.

451
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 2: But then he finds out in September phone call back

452
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 2: to the port bar in Silver Bay, Minnesota. Beautiful spot,

453
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 2: the Silver Bay Municipal Bar. And I've been there, of

454
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 2: course for hard hitting investigative journeys. Pas. All right, that's

455
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 2: all I'm doing here now. A guy who got on

456
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 2: all the bars, Stephen and the bartender serve them. Steven

457
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 2: Burns is still He was eighteen at the time. He's

458
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:27,320
Speaker 2: sixty eight now he's still there.

459
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 1: You're kidding me, dude.

460
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 2: I got so lucky on research again and again and again.

461
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 2: The guy at the President's Lounge in Superior, Wisconsin, he's

462
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 2: still there. He served him the night before they left,

463
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 2: so I'm getting all these guys. So Hudson finds out

464
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 2: by payphone that his girlfriend in Toledo, who's a waitress,

465
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,400
Speaker 2: Cindy Reynolds by Vacious Blind and all that. She says, surprise,

466
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 2: I'm pregnant, And okay, you got that phone call. You're

467
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 2: not ready for that, so I'm not going to ask

468
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 2: for personal experience here. Who's gotten that phone call and

469
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 2: who hasn't, but you can imagine if you haven't that

470
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 2: you pause, Oh my gosh. He says the right stuff.

471
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 2: He says, don't worry. We're gonna moving together and we'll

472
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 2: raise the child ourselves. And when she hears that, she goes, okay,

473
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 2: go ahead and go on that trip because that's November.

474
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 2: The kids is that dud dull June. So now I

475
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 2: think it's going to marry this girl, of course. But

476
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 2: these are the stories that happen before November tenth, nineteen

477
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 2: seventy five. And you got to care about the guys

478
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 2: before they get in the ship. That's kind of my rule.

479
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:22,639
Speaker 2: So these are real guys, I mean, these are guys,

480
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 2: these are your neighbors. They had plans, they had futures,

481
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 2: and of course no one thinks this is gonna happen.

482
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:34,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, that iron ore would come out of the Iron Ranges,

483
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 1: like in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, out of the the here

484
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:40,360
Speaker 1: on range.

485
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 2: Exactly right, called the Iron Range. Bob Billen's from there.

486
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 2: He even talks about that in the book, from a

487
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,359
Speaker 2: players called the Iron Range. That's where my feelings and

488
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,640
Speaker 2: my song has come from, he says. So Iron Range

489
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 2: is the northern part of Minnesota, northern part of Wisconsin,

490
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 2: and the up upper Peninsula of Michigan. Here's a fun

491
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,400
Speaker 2: fact for you, a few football fans. The Wisconsin Badgers

492
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 2: are called the Badgers, not because of the animal, because

493
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,199
Speaker 2: of the miners, because the winter they'd live in the

494
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 2: caves and the winter and their nicknames were the Badgers.

495
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 2: So those are miners they're talking about.

496
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: Actually.

497
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 2: So yeah, hard life to say the least. But all

498
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,919
Speaker 2: that stuff goes to the louse Superior, Silver Bay, two harbors.

499
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 2: You put on the ships and all the factories are Gary, Indiana.

500
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 1: Chicago smelting it down there exactly.

501
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, they smelt it right on the dock. Man. It's

502
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 2: a very efficient process. These pellets called taconite should have

503
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 2: brought some It's a little rusty pebbles. Guy figured out

504
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 2: how to do that, you know, fracking reinvigorated obviously drilling

505
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 2: here in the United States. We're out of the easy stuff,

506
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: so we start fracking. All the easy iron ore is

507
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 2: gone after World War Two. We used it up for

508
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,959
Speaker 2: World War two. So what do we do. We're screwed. Well,

509
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 2: this one professor at Minnesota figures out how to pelletize

510
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 2: this iron ore. The scrap heap called taconite. You can

511
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 2: actually use it if you process it and so on.

512
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 2: We've been using taconite now for eighty years. That's what

513
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 2: we're on. So this guy figures it out. Five hundred

514
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 2: million pebbles of the stuff. Go on a ship. It's dirty,

515
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 2: its rusty, it's heavy. I've been on. They tell you

516
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: to wear a hat. I've been on two of these ships,

517
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 2: by the way, Arthur Anderson, I was out with them

518
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 2: that night, and I've been on the Wilfrid Sykes also

519
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 2: out with them that night. And they give you a helmet,

520
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 2: you know, and a stupid writer guy, right, okay, lamb

521
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 2: lever with a soft hands. Here's a helmet. Don't do

522
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: anything stupid. So you put the helmet on and you

523
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 2: realize very quickly there are pellets of the stuff nailing

524
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 2: your head right now as you walk to the ship

525
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 2: because they're loading. Oh so, and if a few spill,

526
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 2: they don't care, trust me, I from thirty or forty

527
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 2: feet down from their shoots, it'll crack your head open.

528
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 2: So yeah, wear the damn helmet. That's my advice.

529
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: And like that was how much could you fit on that?

530
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,239
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we'll get you home. How much could they

531
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 1: how much of that stuff? How much weight could they

532
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: fit on the that ed Fitz.

533
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 2: You're not gonna believe it. It's twenty six thousand long tons.

534
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 2: So the British measurement was actually bigger than us tons.

535
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 2: Why they do that, who knows, But it's equivalent of

536
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 2: forty two hundred adult elephants. Enough iron on that ship

537
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,719
Speaker 2: to build by itself seven thousand cars, and they make

538
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: fifty runs a year, So one ship, the em Memphis

539
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 2: Derald per year gives you enough iron to build three

540
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty thousand cars. And the course was eighteen years,

541
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 2: enough iron to build six million cars. That's one ship.

542
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: That's what the scale of all this is just mind blowing.

543
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that thing. I didn't know that thing was

544
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: making forty some trips per year.

545
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 2: Fifty yeah, and I mean it's NonStop. It's nine months

546
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: out of the year. And trust me, either loading or

547
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 2: you're sailing, or you're unloading. I took a Skip Barber

548
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: race card class years ago for the Trey Grand Prix.

549
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 2: He said, you either put your foot on the gas,

550
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 2: you'r foot of the brake. You do anything else, you're losing.

551
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: So you're either going as fast as you can or

552
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,479
Speaker 2: as slow as you can. These guys same thing. If

553
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 2: your ship gets into Zug Island Detroit, a nasty little

554
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 2: spit of land, at three o'clock in the morning, they're unloading,

555
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: and then at seven o'clock in the morning they're loading,

556
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 2: and then then they're sailing. And they don't wait for

557
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 2: anybody or anything. You're constantly moving. And I was kind

558
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 2: of wondering if shipping is as big. It was a

559
00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,479
Speaker 2: great line from what you said. I this is dangerous.

560
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: Why do it? William Sutton, the old gangster said someone

561
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 2: once asked him why do you rob banks? And he said,

562
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 2: because that's where the money is. He's got a point.

563
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: Why if is this dangerous? Six thousand shipwrecks. Why do it?

564
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 2: Because where the money is? Like I said, the trade

565
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 2: was that big a deal. Then I also wonder, Okay,

566
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: you know I live in Michigan. You live in Uskegan.

567
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 2: Miskegan is one of the best natural ports on the

568
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 2: Great Lakes, and that's in the book several times. It's

569
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 2: a very important port. And that's lumber. In the old days,

570
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 2: the lumber from Muskegan built the first Chicago that burned

571
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 2: down in eighteen seventy one. So that's your town. As wonder,

572
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 2: why have I never met these guys? I mean, I

573
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 2: know factory workers, miners, farmers, et cetera. I don't know

574
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 2: any sailors because they're only nine thousand of them, thirty

575
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 2: guys per ship, three hundred ships in the heyday. It's

576
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: only nine thousand guys spread out over eight states. Right.

577
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 1: And also they all passed through the porthole.

578
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: They all pass through the portal. Yeah. And the second

579
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: thing is, even though next to you, you still don't meet him.

580
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 2: They're on a ship back. And then nine months out

581
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 2: of the year, no vacations, no weddings, no graduations, no birthdays,

582
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 2: no nothing. I talked to one of these guys, and

583
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 2: he said, I'm a good family man, happily married. You know,

584
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 2: forty some years. I got three great kids. I didn't

585
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 2: teach any of them how to ride a bike or

586
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 2: throw a baseball or hunter fish. You're not home and

587
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 2: it's heartbreaking. So it's a hard life.

588
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: He was just on the ships.

589
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 2: Nine months out of the year. You're home for three months.

590
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 2: He said, there's nothing better than coming home in January

591
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 2: with a big old bonus check to pays for everything.

592
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 2: These guys were paid. Well, there's no question about that.

593
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 2: These guys. You know, they weren't even all high school graduates,

594
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 2: but they were self educated. They're very good at that.

595
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: You have to pass all these tests, come on with

596
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 2: a nice, big bonus check, and my kids run up

597
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 2: to me and they give me a big hug. And

598
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 2: I'm home for three months and my kids say, Daddy,

599
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: you smell like a truck. And I say, no, Daddy,

600
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: smells like a paycheck. That's the life.

601
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, when they launched that ship, there was

602
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: like some weird stuff happened or seemed weird later seem

603
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: weird even.

604
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 2: At the time. Some of it seem weird.

605
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: And by the way, yeah, talk about that. There's kind

606
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: of like three sort of I don't know, man.

607
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 6: When you say launched, you mean that night or when the.

608
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: Ship ris like the gal the first photo, Edmund Fitzgerald's

609
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: wife goes a smack a bottle, champagne bottle, takes three

610
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: hits to break it. A guy dies of a heart attack, right,

611
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: and then they have like a North Korean esque launch a.

612
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's about right, by the way, you podcast listeners, mediator,

613
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 2: podcast listeners. This man is Range Hampton. Size is a

614
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 2: Yeale educated hotshot writer, one of my heroes. You've done

615
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:46,959
Speaker 2: your homework on this one as well, so you got

616
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: it down. June twenty third, nineteen fifty eight, fifteen thousand

617
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 2: people show up in Detroit to see this ship get launched.

618
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 2: That's more than that Detroit Tigers average the entire year. Now, okay,

619
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 2: Tiger's base, Well they sucked. Okay, I'll grant you that

620
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 2: simple point. But it was a huge deal. And people

621
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 2: came in their Sunday best to see this NATA launch

622
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: padded and she was up there at the bunting and

623
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: all that and her Sunday Best three wax to break

624
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 2: the champagne bottle. Sailors are notoriously superstitious, and they're already

625
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 2: getting the bad voodoo on that one, so that's not good.

626
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: Took about half an hour to get that ship into

627
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 2: the water because guess what it weighs. The numbers in there,

628
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 2: some ridiculous number of tons. Crazy. It's the same height

629
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 2: as the Detroit Renaissance Center, the tallest one. It's seven

630
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 2: and thirty feet twenty nine feet, but it's no wider

631
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: than the run from home plate to first base. It's

632
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 2: seventy five feet. It's because of the locks. Because of

633
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 2: the locks.

634
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: Is it really that narrow?

635
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 2: It's these things are nuts, and no ships like this

636
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 2: will built anywhere else in the world.

637
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: And if you're something is twenty five yards wide seventy

638
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: five feet wide.

639
00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 2: It's nothing. Your old ruler at school, that's about the

640
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 2: dimensions ten to one they know, I mean in the ocean,

641
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: they make them shorter and fatter like you should basically

642
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: like you would normally.

643
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: Man, I gotta just tell you a little deal about that.

644
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: When we used to hunt ducks right at like Sugar Island,

645
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: Nivish Island, and the Saint Mary's River, you have your

646
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: ducks out, you have your decoys out eighteen inches of water.

647
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: One of them sons of bitches that come by push

648
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: first off. All of a sudden, your ducks are in

649
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: thirty six inches of water. When that passes and the

650
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: water comes in, your decoys are laying in the mud

651
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: when it fills back in.

652
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: And that's just when those these big old ships are

653
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 2: putting through.

654
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, your decoys are in the mud. And also they come.

655
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 6: Back, come right back up.

656
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: If you were a fix but I would never guess.

657
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: That's only seventy five feet wide.

658
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 2: It's crazy. They look like bigger than God, but they are.

659
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 6: It's seven hundred feet tall.

660
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: You said, well, it's seven nine feet long. Oh long long?

661
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 2: Gotcha the Detroitment of Sound Center, if you know where

662
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 2: that is. They got the four shorter buildings in the

663
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 2: tall one. It's the tallst building between Toronto and Chicago.

664
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 2: It is seven hundred and thirty feet seventy three story

665
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: story skyscraper. That's the phrase I need Steven, thank you,

666
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 2: But only seventy five feet wide. And again, if your shipbuilder,

667
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: and these guys were great shipbuilders, you got three criteria. One,

668
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: haul as much cargo as you can, because that's how

669
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 2: you make money. Two fit the damn thing through the

670
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 2: SEU lots because they're only seventy five feet wide. As

671
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: that's the limit right there.

672
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: Like that sets the ship's design.

673
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 2: And that's exactly what they did. They were one foot

674
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: of one and no inches on the other. I mean

675
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 2: this is maxed out. Uh. And then of course the

676
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: third thing is handle rough seas well. If you're a

677
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 2: shipping company, what you can't do all three? Guess which

678
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 2: two you're picking? Yeah, So these things are very porty

679
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 2: designed for rough seas. Like I said, you can snap

680
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 2: it between two waves. They roll back and forth, which

681
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 2: is left and right? Hey, you're you're your podcast is

682
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 2: awesome because your guys have been in boats all right,

683
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 2: they've been out fishing and so on. When you're facing waves,

684
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 2: you think smashing the waves is you know, bad with

685
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 2: a v hale. No, it's not. It's broadside that'll screw

686
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 2: you up all right in the stake in the trough, baby,

687
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 2: exactly exactly, Brodie. It's exactly what happens with these ships.

688
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 2: Where do you not want to be in the trough?

689
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 2: And that's what's gonna happen later on. So smashing the

690
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 2: waves sucks. And one of the guys. I got one guy,

691
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 2: Rick Barthouli. You guys would love this guy. He's got

692
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 2: looks a bit like my buddy randall over here. He's

693
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 2: got people, the good people, self educated guy, very smart dogs,

694
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 2: life's hot. Oh hell yeah. So he does not own

695
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 2: a computer, he has not got the internet. All he

696
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 2: has is a cell phone. He's off the grid basically

697
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 2: except for the cell phone. So give me a year

698
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 2: to find this guy, another year to convince him to

699
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 2: talk to me. He's the last guy left, to my knowledge,

700
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 2: of anybody on the Arthur Anderson that night, which is

701
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 2: one hour behind the Fits taking the same route, and

702
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: they're the ones communicating back and forth. She's as close

703
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 2: as we can get to what's it like to be

704
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 2: on this thing? And he says, you know, you think

705
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 2: you're smashing this wave. Unless you've been on one of

706
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: these ships, you have no idea what this is like.

707
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 2: Every wave is a train wreck. It goes bang bang

708
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 2: bang bang bang bang, as it kind of crunches down

709
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 2: and then it stretches out again. Then it goes bang

710
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: bang bang bang, bang bang bang, And that's forty eight

711
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 2: seconds twenty foot waves. You ain't sleeping, there's no way.

712
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 2: And they got thirty and forty foot waves. So that's

713
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: how they designed them, and it's ten by one. It's crazy.

714
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 3: Has that design changed since then?

715
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: Not? No, no, because the SEU locks haven't changed. And

716
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: they're finishing another one, the first one since nineteen sixty eight.

717
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 2: They're doing that one right now, and trust me, they're

718
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 2: going to get bigger. Now you've got thousand footers that

719
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: are still seventy five foot wide.

720
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: You're kidding me.

721
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 2: How nuts?

722
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 6: How deep are they sitting in the water.

723
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: That is a brilliant question. How do you are they

724
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 2: supposed to sit? Or how deep do they sit?

725
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: Loaded? Unloaded?

726
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 2: So originally the plan was fourteen feet of what's called freeboard.

727
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 2: You guys know what that is. Again, dude, this is

728
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 2: my first podcast, my first interview. I've done thirty or

729
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:48,959
Speaker 2: forty by.

730
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: Now with big mariners.

731
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, people, Actually, what the hell I expired captain's license.

732
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 2: You're as close as I get rand I'll take your

733
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 2: expired captain's license. Yeah, you guys know what it's all about.

734
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 2: So freeboard is a distance between the water and the

735
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 2: top of your deck and the US Coast Guard and

736
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,760
Speaker 2: others ABS have got regulations on this. When the ship

737
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 2: was built nineteen fifty eight, it was allowed fourteen feet

738
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 2: of freeboard and then therefore about twenty five feet below

739
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 2: the water. Yeah, all these things you see those markers,

740
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 2: that is the Plimsaw line. I got a chapped on it.

741
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 2: You're on the Plimsall line. A British politician from the

742
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 2: eighteen forties, who Plimsall? Who made this line and ever

743
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 2: ignored it except Lloyd's of London. The insurance. You know

744
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: where I'm going with this one. If you break that law,

745
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 2: we're not paying you a dime. So now all of

746
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,919
Speaker 2: a sudden, the equation ship shifted. In the old days,

747
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 2: the guys in England in the eighteen fifties eighteen sixties,

748
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 2: they would overload their ships, take out a ton of insurance,

749
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: sink it almost intentionally with crew on board that didn't care,

750
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 2: and collect the money. So this changed all that. So

751
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 2: this is how evil it was. So they were allowed

752
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 2: fourteen feet, and then who knows why, in nineteen sixty nine,

753
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 2: seventy one, and seventy three the regulations changed and allowed

754
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 2: it to go bit by bit from fourteen feet above

755
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 2: the water to only eleven feet above the water. In

756
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 2: the engineer's defense, they didn't design it for that. And

757
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 2: by the way, one inch of taconite, by the way,

758
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 2: is tons one inch cheating the thing. One inch is

759
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: millions of dollars of taconite. One inch is.

760
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 3: That thing just a big tub in the bottomers that

761
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 3: divided in a compartment.

762
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 2: It's divided into three main cargo holds, and I've heard

763
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 2: stories about guys who fell into those. Back then you

764
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 2: could drink on board and things like this, and drugs

765
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 2: were prevalent. You could guys who fell in and died

766
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: while trying to hose it down. So don't drink it.

767
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 2: Hose is my advice on that one. But yes, there's

768
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 2: three gigantic holes. It's most of the seven hundred feet

769
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 2: And I mean I'm standing there two feet away from

770
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 2: these things and it's only like two feet. I mean,

771
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: I could easily fall in. So it's one of those

772
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:57,399
Speaker 2: things with tell you don't be an idiot. But yes,

773
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 2: that's a very good question. And they unloaded. Now they've

774
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: got sellfonloaders, but back then they scooped it out. So yeah,

775
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 2: so it's a it's a crazy setup, to say the least.

776
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:12,359
Speaker 1: Let's jump that night a little bit. There, we've kind

777
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: of established this run they're making. Oh, I got it.

778
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: Before we jump to that night. I got one more.

779
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: What are they coming? Are they coming back empty?

780
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 2: Yes? Every time?

781
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 1: There's nothing to bring up there nothing.

782
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 2: To bring up. Well, here's a fun fact for you.

783
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 2: Trains are twice as efficient as trucks, and ships are

784
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 2: three times more efficient than trains. So ships are six

785
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 2: more efficient than trucks. It ain't even close. So you

786
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: carry so much on these ships you can afford to

787
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 2: spend three days going to Toledo and come back in

788
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 2: because it doesn't matter anything. You can put out a ship,

789
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 2: you put in a ship. It's just far more efficient.

790
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: Got it.

791
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 2: So you're right. And also when you're coming back, you're

792
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 2: righting high. That's when you fill the ballast tanks with

793
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 2: water to give us some If you don't fill with water,

794
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 2: the screws, the propellers, which are thirty feet high, they

795
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 2: won't even touch the water. So you got it. Weigh it?

796
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: Oh no, kid, Yeah, you'll just grind it to death,

797
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 2: all right, So so you got to do that. But

798
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 2: when it's right, well, I'm going to photo even land

799
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 2: lubber me, I can tell you when the fits is

800
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 2: loading when it's not, and these guys can tell immediately.

801
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: Got it.

802
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 2: So you lose ten you know, five ten feet or something.

803
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: So that night or I don't know what time they

804
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: take off, presumably they don't take off at night, but

805
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: they take it.

806
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 2: They take them whenever they take off. Trust me, they.

807
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 1: Take off knowing there's like like what is their awareness

808
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: of the weather, like what is the what is the

809
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 1: forecast when they take off?

810
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 2: Might be a genius exactly right. The two problems they

811
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:32,720
Speaker 2: had back.

812
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: Then, that's a stretch. But I know that.

813
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 6: I actually like the positive vibes in the room right now.

814
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: But I just know the wind.

815
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 2: That's rare.

816
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: Now I know the wind and the wires made a tattletale.

817
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: Soith fully loaded.

818
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 3: He doesn't pay any attention to the weather when we're

819
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 3: in Alaska.

820
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: But now what the forecast is, I'll say, let's go

821
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: have a look.

822
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 2: You fit right in on this ship. So here's what happens.

823
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: And you guys, your listeners got to.

824
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: Know the weather.

825
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 2: You gotta wash the weather. And one of my guys,

826
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 2: his dad was also a Great Lakes captain. He said

827
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,800
Speaker 2: when the weather came on, and I'm a kid in Cleveland.

828
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 2: Everyone shut the hell up. And because that will determine

829
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 2: if your dad and your dad is listening like this.

830
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 2: I didn't get that until I got in the ship.

831
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 2: And the weather's why you come home or why you don't.

832
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: Now in this case, the gales of November, it's like

833
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: the hurricane season in Florida. When is that in September?

834
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 2: Because the water's warm and the air is cool, the

835
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 2: water wants to rise. When you boil water and you're

836
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 2: stove at home, it evaporates, it rises right because it

837
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 2: wants to join the cold there and so on. It

838
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 2: happens in November. On the Great Lakes, November is notoriously dangerous.

839
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,240
Speaker 2: November tenth is the most dangerous day on the Great Lakes.

840
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 1: Really, Oh yeah, and they and it's really worse than January.

841
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 2: It's worse than December. It's worse than January because by

842
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 2: then winter has arrived and the water and the air

843
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 2: get along. They're not in contrast. So it's when they're fighting.

844
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 2: You get waves. So and on top of that, and

845
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 2: you're right about the forecast. So a few things happened.

846
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 2: One it's seventy degree and November ninth, the day they

847
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 2: take off at two o'clock in the afternoon, it's seventy

848
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 2: degrees into Luth. Wow, and it ain't supposed to be

849
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 2: seven degrees into Luth. All right, you think that's great news,

850
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 2: it's bad news for they learned doing this book and

851
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 2: the experts. The longer winter takes to arrive, the nastier

852
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 2: it shows up. It's like water behind a dam, and

853
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,280
Speaker 2: the more water you get when that dam finally breaks,

854
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: the worst it's gonna be. So seventy degrees on Sunday

855
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 2: is really bad news.

856
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:28,439
Speaker 1: Just too warm. Water is too warm.

857
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 2: Water's too warm, and the airs, the air switches. It's

858
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 2: gonna be It's gonna happen fast and nasty. Isn't that

859
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,280
Speaker 2: like this year everything's been real hot up there. Yeah, basically,

860
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 2: but exactly right, Krinn. And if it happens suddenly, these

861
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 2: guys will know better.

862
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Great Lakes are big enough they'll create their

863
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 3: own weather.

864
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 2: They actually do. And what the what these guys told

865
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 2: me that you have far away storms and the ocean,

866
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: as I said earlier, and the Great Lakes are called

867
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 2: locally occurring storms, which means the damn thing right over

868
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 2: your head. So you're fishing in the morning and you're,

869
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 2: you know, rowing for your dear life. Two hours later,

870
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 2: it happens very fast. So win is gonna come from

871
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 2: alberta clipper from obviously Western Canada, across the Dakotas Minnesota,

872
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 2: and that's gonna run all the way across three hundred

873
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 2: and fifty miles of fetch. And you guys know what

874
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 2: fetches across Lake Superior. That's nasty, cold, dry air. They knew,

875
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 2: they expected that. Basically, they didn't know how bad. They

876
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 2: did not know about another storm. They should have. Some

877
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 2: of the guys didn't know about this in the weather

878
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: forecasting business. A hot, wet air coming in from California, Texas, Oklahoma,

879
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 2: Iowa straight up to the Green Lakes. These two storms

880
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: are gonna meet right in front of Whitefish Bay, your

881
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 2: old fishing spot. White Fish Bay is home Plate. That's

882
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 2: where you're trying to get to. After two days getting

883
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: across Lake Superior. Now you've got it's like a catcher

884
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: in front of home plate, blocking your way home. And

885
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 2: this captain does not know that. So that's tragic. And

886
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 2: then what happens, So he does know is in for

887
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:59,720
Speaker 2: a storm. So he and Bernie Cooper, Arthur Anderson their buddies.

888
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 2: But they're still competing, of course, to get there first.

889
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 2: And why to compete. If you beat a ship by

890
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:06,760
Speaker 2: a minute, you beat him by a couple hours, because

891
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 2: you will get to the sua locks first, only one

892
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 2: ship at a time. You will get to the dock first,

893
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 2: you unload first. That's four or five hours a minute

894
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 2: is can be a half a day.

895
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 1: Yep.

896
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,479
Speaker 2: So these guys are competitive dudes to say the least,

897
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 2: but they still like but they still get along.

898
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they still come together. Is it just coincidence

899
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 1: that they're sailing together, No.

900
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 2: It's not. They're talking to each other and early on

901
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 2: around four or five o'clock on Sunday, they say, you

902
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 2: know what, this thing's pretty nasty. Let's take the northern route.

903
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 2: And normally he'd never do that. And mcsorty was the

904
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 2: best captain on the Great Lakes captain when he's thirty

905
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 2: one years old. He's the youngest captain of the Great Lakes.

906
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 2: When he became a captain at thirty one. Now he's

907
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 2: sixty three. He's been a captain more than half his life.

908
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 2: He's the most aggressive captain. He never turns around, he

909
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: never takes the northern route, he never weighs anchor, He

910
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 2: just goes, goes, goes. So the company likes that he's

911
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 2: the best in rough weather. They all say. Got a witness,

912
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 2: Craig Sillivan, who's on the ship in seventy two. He said,

913
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 2: I saw that man park seven hundred and twenty nine

914
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 2: feet of steel between two other freighters with three feet

915
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 2: into your side and not touch a damn thing, like

916
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 2: you're parking your your parallel parking your Ford f one fifty.

917
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 2: This man was the best, and he's also beloved, which

918
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 2: those guys were not back then. These guys would throw

919
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 2: hot coffee at you, yell at cadets, and all the

920
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 2: kinds of other stuff. They're tyrants. Basically, this guy was

921
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 2: so beloved his crew would follow him from ship to ship.

922
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 2: So you have the best ship in the Great Lakes,

923
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 2: the longest, the fastest, the most luxurious. How about that,

924
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 2: the best food they had.

925
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: They had air conditioning in their bunks.

926
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 2: They had air conditioning in nineteen fifty eight. Homes didn't

927
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 2: have that.

928
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: Those are like leather furniture and something leather.

929
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 2: Furniture, two VIP quarters for the rich folks, the people

930
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 2: who write the checks, the National Steel US steel Ford

931
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 2: Motor Company to entertain those guys. Because you want the

932
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: best captain of the Great Lakes, you want the best

933
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 2: crew in the Great Lakes, and you want the most money.

934
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 2: That's how you get it. So it was not wasted money.

935
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 2: So mccerley, here's a more heartbreaking stuff. They're supposed to

936
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 2: end the season the week before tax on one more

937
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 2: trip to get his bonus. Why his wife, Nellie is

938
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 2: sick in Toledo. She's got cancer. We think. I'm not

939
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 2: tiredly sure about that, but I've got some witnesses on that.

940
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 2: So she's already in twenty four our care. She might

941
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 2: be able to pull through. So this trip is for

942
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: her healthcare. And he's about to retire. So normally he'd

943
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 2: never take the northern route, but he's thinking, who the

944
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 2: hell's gonna fire me? Go ahead?

945
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 3: What was the advantage of taking the northern route?

946
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 2: Smart man Brody?

947
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: Uh, good job.

948
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,359
Speaker 2: A few things. One, they normally go straight across Lake

949
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 2: Superior south as you can. This is straight as land possible.

950
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 2: By taking the northern route, you get the lee of

951
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 2: the Canadian shore. And you guys know what lee is.

952
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 2: There are twenty terms I've used tonight that I could

953
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 2: not use last night. If you're in a bookstore in

954
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 2: the walk here in Minnesota, you better explain a lot

955
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:51,720
Speaker 2: of stuff. So this is Mike, this is my gang.

956
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 2: So you get the lee of the Western Shore, the

957
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 2: Northern Shore. You're basically hugging Canada across Superior. Now a

958
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 2: few catches to that, though. One is the safe, rational

959
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 2: thing to do. So I'm not one of those ones

960
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 2: that Dublin mcstorians say, screwed the holding up. That's a

961
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 2: rational move, but a few catches one one of the yours.

962
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 2: You already know it's pay me now or pay me later.

963
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 2: So okay, the first two legs are quieter and softer,

964
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:17,879
Speaker 2: not as windy and so on. But that third leg's

965
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: gonna be hell because now you're exposed. You have three

966
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: hundred fifty feet three hundred fifty miles of fetch and

967
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 2: now those waves are hitting you broadside. This is the

968
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 2: you're in your bathub and this is the drain, and

969
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 2: go ahead, make some waves. What's gonna happen at the end.

970
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 2: It's being nasty at that end. So and you're gonna

971
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 2: be hitting those broad side. That's not what you want.

972
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 2: All right, your last leg that's gonna be about ten hours.

973
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: That's one problem. Second problem is it's fourteen hours longer

974
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 2: than the straight shot. All right, you just gave that

975
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 2: Southern storm a fourteen hour head start to get to

976
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 2: Whitefish Bay first. And I pose it in the book.

977
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: This is the captain's call completely like he's going a

978
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 1: unilateral that's what's happening.

979
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 2: Not a democracy devotes one nothing in all decisions. You

980
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 2: might consult, and he did, but it's one nothing and

981
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 2: you are therefore response for all decisions. Another guy out

982
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 2: that night on the pikes, he said, this is too nasty.

983
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 2: And this is one of the best captains in the

984
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 2: Great Lakes, also probably the best at forecasting. And he says,

985
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 2: we're tucking in, we're going to go into the bay,

986
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 2: and his crew is warning him and ride it out.

987
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 2: And his crew is warning him, sir, if you do, captain,

988
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 2: you if you do that and there's no storm, it

989
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 2: can be your ass with Cleveland, with the company. So

990
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 2: those the pros and cons you deal with. Now m

991
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 2: Sworney only cares. This is his last trip. So anyway,

992
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 2: so fourteen hours. Here's the third problem. He does not

993
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 2: know this route nearly as well. He takes the southern

994
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 2: route fifty times a year, really, one hundred back and forth.

995
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 2: He's done that his entire career, forty years at least,

996
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 2: he's done this thousands of times. He knows all the islands,

997
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 2: he knows all the stuff out there, and the currents

998
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 2: and everything else. He does not know this. I had

999
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 2: two guys on the ship that year and they said,

1000
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 2: we didn't take it in the last year and a half,

1001
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 2: not once in the northern route. God, why does that matter?

1002
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 2: It's Superior, it's thirteen hundred feet deep, it's gigantic. Not quite.

1003
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 2: It's a little crappy pileo dirt called Caribo Island in

1004
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 2: the northeast corner of Lake Superior. Right when you take

1005
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,439
Speaker 2: that final stretch down it's one mile by three mile.

1006
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,760
Speaker 2: It barely shows up on most maps. It's called Carib Island.

1007
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 2: I have no idea.

1008
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: Why well, can I interject?

1009
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? And by the way, it's your show.

1010
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 1: Historically, here's the crazy part. Like Isle Royal, yes, being

1011
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,720
Speaker 1: a wolf Moose Island, Yes, historically was a Caribou Lynx Island.

1012
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 2: I did not know that. Yeah. Isle Royal is the

1013
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 2: nation's biggest I'm sorry, it's the nation's only island national

1014
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 2: park and it's ten times the size of Manhattan, but

1015
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 2: no one knows that.

1016
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 3: So there's caribou up there, like after nineteen hundred.

1017
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, in Maya in the modern like in like modern America. Yeah,

1018
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: during American history there was a caribouo Lynx Island.

1019
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 2: That was news to me. And by the way, it's

1020
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 2: the first show also that I learned something.

1021
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: Oh, you can go there.

1022
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 5: You can hike up on a mountain on Isle Row

1023
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 5: and you can look at the biggest island in the

1024
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 5: biggest lake, on the biggest island in the biggest lake.

1025
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 2: That's in the book. It's a iroh is so big

1026
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 2: ten times it says Manhattan. It's got a lake in

1027
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 2: the island with an island with a lake. Been there,

1028
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,399
Speaker 2: There you go, Randall see it with my own eyes.

1029
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 2: There you go, And they use ira Oyl that's part

1030
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 2: of the lee. They go just south of Ale Royal

1031
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 2: to get that protection. The word normally the.

1032
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 6: Worst boat right I've ever been on was getting to.

1033
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 2: Ale Royal on the on the Ranger three.

1034
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,760
Speaker 6: From the from International Falls side.

1035
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 2: Oh god, that's brutal.

1036
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 5: And and yeah, I've never been seasick before.

1037
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: I was seasick on that.

1038
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 2: All right, we're getting pretty serious here. Here's the thing

1039
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 2: they used to do. The guys on those ships who

1040
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 2: work in those ships. I talked to one of those guys.

1041
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 2: I had to cut the damn thing. But this will

1042
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,439
Speaker 2: be fun for you guys. I remember denty Moore, Hunter

1043
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,760
Speaker 2: Stu and all that stuff. I think one guy would

1044
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 2: start acting like he's sick with five foot waves, five

1045
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 2: waves enough get these campers to sick. He had some

1046
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 2: denty more and he also go and spill the stuff,

1047
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:01,720
Speaker 2: and it's other buddy comes by and go, oh my god.

1048
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 2: He'd have a spoon and he started eating it. And

1049
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 2: that of course the campers, the poor campers that they

1050
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 2: see that they're over the side.

1051
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: So okay, So yeah, Caribou Island, it's quite all.

1052
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 2: Right because we needed that left and I will never

1053
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 2: get another chance of my life to tell that story.

1054
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 2: So so Caribou Island. It's one mile by three mile.

1055
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 2: It's called Caber Island. I have no idea. It's in

1056
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 2: a swamp with Mosquitos. It's nasty. The caribou left. If

1057
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 2: they're around there, they swam across the Canada long ad.

1058
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 2: It's no reason to go there. But in front of it,

1059
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 2: to the north, it's six fathoms shoal. You guys know

1060
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,839
Speaker 2: what a fathom is. My other folks usually don't. It's

1061
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 2: six feet. Six fathoms is therefore thirty six feet. If

1062
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 2: you're drafting twenty nine feet on a good day, and

1063
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 2: this is not a good day, you have no reason

1064
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,799
Speaker 2: to be anywhere near this nothing to gain. But it's

1065
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,280
Speaker 2: awesome as leading. It's not six fathoms. In some places

1066
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 2: it's eleven feet. That's no deeper than your backyard pool.

1067
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 2: So you have no reason to be anywhere near this thing.

1068
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 2: Why would he come anywhere near it?

1069
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 1: Got it?

1070
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 2: The storm now is seventy mile per hour winds, thirty

1071
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 2: foot waves is pretty nasty. Not quite the worst he's

1072
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 2: ever seen. But getting there, his long radars knocked out,

1073
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 2: his short radars knocked out by waves by waves, exactly right,

1074
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 2: thank you. And Whitefish Point and you've seen that lighthouse

1075
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 2: is the one lighthouse on the Great Lakes. Everyone's dying

1076
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 2: to see that light. Of course, goes out that night.

1077
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 2: The radio beacon that signals the ships where you are

1078
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 2: also goes out. Why the storm, I mean seven.

1079
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 1: Storm knocked the lighthouse out.

1080
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,839
Speaker 2: Well, Domino start falling your power out and just dumb

1081
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 2: luck in some cases. So there they are. So now

1082
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,839
Speaker 2: you have truly sailing blind. All you have are what

1083
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,439
Speaker 2: they call charts and we call maps. And it's about

1084
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 2: as big as this table. It seems like four by five.

1085
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,839
Speaker 2: They're huge. And in these in the chart room because

1086
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 2: these organic drawers. One says Lake here on one says

1087
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 2: Lake Ontario. I mean you pull out six or seven

1088
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 2: per Lake. Now, if you're old enough and you kids

1089
00:50:57,560 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 2: have no idea how I'm talking about, but Triple A

1090
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 2: used to gives them called a triptick, all right, and

1091
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 2: put all your maps on a trip, all in an order.

1092
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 2: So if I'm going from Michigan to Montana, I would

1093
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 2: know how to do it. And it works pretty well.

1094
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 2: That's how these maps work. But if you skip ahead,

1095
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 2: you're screwed because now nothing makes sense. So if he

1096
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 2: does not know where he is, Tom Wider a great hunter. Also,

1097
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 2: by the way, it's also a sea captain in the

1098
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 2: Great Lakes. He said, it's entirely possible he would have

1099
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 2: changed maps too soon. You're in thirty foot waves. You've

1100
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 2: not slept in thirty six hours. You get what's called

1101
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 2: motion fatigue. That is like being drunk after thirty six

1102
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:35,760
Speaker 2: hours these waves, and you've not taken this route in years.

1103
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 2: If he shifted his map too soon, all right, to

1104
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 2: get whitefish ban in the map, because that's where he

1105
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,359
Speaker 2: wants to go. All right. The Cariber area is still there,

1106
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 2: but it now disappears because the scale has changed, so

1107
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 2: you might not be aware of anywhere near this. And

1108
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 2: the Anderson is convinced that they saw them on the

1109
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 2: radar go right over six fathom and shoal. If they did,

1110
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 2: it would explain why. Two hours later, he's talking to

1111
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 2: Bernie Coop, that is the captain of the Memphis Gerald

1112
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 2: I McK sorely saying, my fence railings down, I've got

1113
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 2: two vent covers blown off by the waves, a few

1114
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 2: other problems, and in kind of in passing, I've got

1115
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 2: a list. All right, you guys know what that means.

1116
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 2: That's my thirtieth term I don't have to define to

1117
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 2: you guys, but tilting to the right to starboard all right,

1118
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,479
Speaker 2: not that big a deal at first. Two hours later,

1119
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:23,760
Speaker 2: it's the first thing that he mentions. And these guys

1120
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 2: are very reluctant to admit anything is wrong with their

1121
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 2: ships for a few reasons. One, they're in competition. You

1122
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 2: don't put anything on the radio, you don't have to.

1123
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 2: Second of all, the whole matra aspect. Man, we've all

1124
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,879
Speaker 2: been on planes. We're experiencing little turbulence here. People. Yeah,

1125
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,439
Speaker 2: we're going bounce up and down two undred feet. We'll

1126
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 2: be okay here in just a few minutes. That's what

1127
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 2: these guys are like. So for him to admit this

1128
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 2: much is very unusual. So now you've got a pretty

1129
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 2: serious list. What does that mean? It means either taking

1130
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 2: water from the bottom or the load has shifted, or

1131
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 2: possibly both. And if they bottomed out at six fathom

1132
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 2: the shoal, that could be the reason. Once you've starboard,

1133
00:52:58,560 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 2: all right, you can't steer.

1134
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: And he had mentioned we hit.

1135
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:04,479
Speaker 2: Here's the bizarre part. And I could not believe this either,

1136
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 2: But I had ten experts tell me it's true. You

1137
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,839
Speaker 2: might not have known, And I thought that's impossible.

1138
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 1: Something enough to put a hole through that thing a sandstone.

1139
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 2: It's sandstone, for crying out loud. This is hard, hard stuff,

1140
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:19,719
Speaker 2: and you got a hard hardship. How could you not

1141
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 2: know that? And I talked to experienced captains saying, the

1142
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 2: waves are so nasty, like I said, they're a train

1143
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:26,959
Speaker 2: wreck that you can't tell the difference between the train

1144
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 2: wreck of a good wave and one guy the badger

1145
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 2: that runs from Muskegan.

1146
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:34,720
Speaker 1: To uh exactly, man's right.

1147
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 2: That's right, will see is the captain of that ship?

1148
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 1: He said.

1149
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 2: I was leaving the breakwater one time, and the waves

1150
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 2: are so nasty. I thought I hit the breakwater. I

1151
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 2: had not, And I didn't know this stuff worked like that.

1152
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 2: It does, so even a good captain cannot be aware.

1153
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 2: So whether tore hole or scraped it or whatever, we're

1154
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:55,320
Speaker 2: not quite sure. But anyway, now you're listing. If you're listing,

1155
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:57,840
Speaker 2: you can't steer properly. You're much more in danger of

1156
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 2: capsizing when you're going broadside and like a three leg

1157
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 2: an animal in the wild. And you guys know what

1158
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 2: those are like. All right, one good wave now can

1159
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 2: take you out. And when it reaches the point that

1160
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 2: they didn't want to be in. As I said earlier,

1161
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,399
Speaker 2: the worst place, the worst time, one hundred miles prior

1162
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 2: wins and up to sixty foot waves. And at some

1163
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 2: point the ship probably didn't come back up. We don't know,

1164
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 2: but that's the best guest.

1165
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:28,319
Speaker 1: The best guess right now is that it hit Did

1166
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:29,319
Speaker 1: it hit something.

1167
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 2: That I think if you're asking me, I know, like.

1168
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 1: I understanding that no one really knows, but like, where's

1169
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 1: sort of the all right, let's get let's go sort

1170
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 1: of like academic consensus.

1171
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 2: There is none, but I can tell you this some

1172
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 2: new data in here. Dick Race, there's a name for you.

1173
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 2: He's the best diver in the Great Lakes. He died

1174
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:50,839
Speaker 2: in two thousand and two when a seven forty seven

1175
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 2: went in, Like Michigan in the sixties. He's the guy

1176
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 2: who found it when no one else could. The lakes

1177
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 2: are bigger than you think. He worked at the Chicago

1178
00:54:57,640 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 2: Police Department and he did his own work. He's the

1179
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 2: best in the lake. Three guys who knew him well

1180
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 2: also the same thing. The company asked him to dive

1181
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 2: down six months later on six to five of them shoal, yeah,

1182
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,240
Speaker 2: look for a strike, look for a strike, exactly right, Steven,

1183
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 2: and wherever that report is, by the way, I found

1184
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:16,800
Speaker 2: the guy Peter grow was in charge of a thousand

1185
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 2: boxes bankers boxes of that company's files when I went

1186
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 2: bankrupt in two thousand and four. He spent two years

1187
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 2: going through all these files. He found every box and

1188
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:28,800
Speaker 2: went through them all except for three, the three involving

1189
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 2: the ed Memphis Gerald, and no one signed him out.

1190
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 2: There's no trace. That's where his report is. I'm almost

1191
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:35,759
Speaker 2: sure of it, and I couldn't find it. Dick Race

1192
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:38,919
Speaker 2: reported on this, So his file is gone. We don't

1193
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 2: know where it is. And I tried like a hell

1194
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:43,240
Speaker 2: to find it. But he told three different guys in Chicago,

1195
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: Travers City, Muskegan the exact same thing. I saw the

1196
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:48,240
Speaker 2: Fitzgerald's paint on that bottom.

1197
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 1: I saw a rock.

1198
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 2: Nearby with scratches that no animal can make. That had

1199
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:55,360
Speaker 2: to be from the ship. So is that proof?

1200
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:00,839
Speaker 3: There wasn't like when they found the there was like

1201
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 3: no like autopsy they could do on the wreckage.

1202
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 2: Yes and no. And it gets us closer to it,

1203
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 2: but it's not definitive. Yeah. But anyway, So at seven

1204
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,280
Speaker 2: o'clock when Bernie Cooper calls him and he's the captain

1205
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 2: of the Anderson, and he says, how are you making

1206
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:18,359
Speaker 2: out with your problems? He says an quote, we are

1207
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 2: holding our own And that is the ringing line from

1208
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:24,280
Speaker 2: Captain MCSORTI. Those the last words from anybody on board.

1209
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 2: Whatever happened next one thing we say that people academically

1210
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 2: even agree on whatever happened was fast. And what's our

1211
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 2: proof on that this guy is the best captain of

1212
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 2: the great Legs. If he had ten seconds to get

1213
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:38,399
Speaker 2: out an SOS with coordinates, he sure as hell would

1214
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:40,880
Speaker 2: have done it. This guy's good, all right. The lifeboats

1215
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 2: were secured, the life jackets were where they left them.

1216
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 2: Only one guy we've seen in the bottom is wearing

1217
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 2: a life jacket. So whatever happened happened very fast. They say,

1218
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 2: when thirty five miles per hour down to the bottom,

1219
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:54,439
Speaker 2: it might have cracked on top.

1220
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:56,919
Speaker 1: If there's a guy on the bottom wearing a life jacket, Yes,

1221
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:58,800
Speaker 1: how com we didn't float.

1222
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:03,720
Speaker 2: Because he's inside the inside the Uh, they're all inside

1223
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 2: the ship, understood. Oh they are yep, somewhere in the

1224
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 2: pilot house and somewhere in the engine room and no

1225
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 2: one's in the middle. So is that right? Yeah, we

1226
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 2: don't want to be in the middle. Not that, not

1227
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 2: that it worked out well anyway.

1228
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 1: But how deep did it? How deep did it?

1229
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 2: Here's the weird part, so kind of an academic question.

1230
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 2: Did it crack on the surface as other ships had

1231
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 2: or did it crack after it hit And a lot

1232
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 2: of people say it cracked on the surface, And again

1233
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 2: can't prove it either way. But here's a wild stat

1234
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 2: for you. It's down five hundred and thirty feet deep.

1235
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 2: Now you better you know you can't dive down there

1236
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 2: for the hell of it. You better know what you're doing,

1237
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 2: special gear, you know, license people, submersibles, all that stuff.

1238
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 2: So it's five hundred thirty feet down. But this ship

1239
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 2: is seven hundred and twenty nine feet long, So even

1240
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 2: if it hits the bout, you have two hundred feet

1241
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 2: out outside the water. Crazy, all right, So that would

1242
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 2: certainly have cracked it at that point put all the

1243
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 2: weight on it. So either one could have happened. And

1244
00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 2: I can't say.

1245
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:00,040
Speaker 1: That's yeah, I never thought of. It's taller than it

1246
00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 1: is deep.

1247
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 2: And it's five hundred and thirty feet deep.

1248
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 1: How far are the two pieces apart?

1249
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 2: About a quarter mile about like that, and in between

1250
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 2: it's like one third the bow upright, so you can

1251
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 2: see the Memphis Gerald on the side, one third the

1252
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 2: stern upside down. So we see in the book ed

1253
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 2: Memphiserald upside down, which is sad to see. In the

1254
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 2: middle is about a third and it's just blown apart

1255
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 2: and the attack and it is still down there, so

1256
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 2: and and all twenty men as well. And the line

1257
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 2: from the song the chip Awad comes from a Newsweek story.

1258
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 2: But Gordon Lightfoot got the great lick the great Lake

1259
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 2: never gives up her dead. What that means is if.

1260
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 1: The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead.

1261
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 2: You think by now I'd be a nice pant on

1262
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 2: this stuff. But this guy's got the lyrics exactly right.

1263
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 2: Thank you again, doctor, And he's got it. He's right.

1264
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 2: The leg it is said, never.

1265
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: Dead, honorary doctor.

1266
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 2: I call that a professional. Curtis, thank you. We need

1267
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 2: we need a light moments. That's good too. Yeah. The

1268
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 2: author of the book, wud paid two thousand dollars for

1269
00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 2: the rights. Didn't get the lyric right, So thank you

1270
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 2: for that. Why is that because if you've drowned in Michigan,

1271
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 2: like Michigan like Eerie, almost anywhere you go in the

1272
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 2: United States, bacteria will eventually invade your body. And the

1273
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 2: bacteria do that. They are lighter than water, so your

1274
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 2: body starts floating up. So that's why they float up

1275
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 2: within a week or two, usually in drownings. Fishermen included

1276
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 2: on the Great Lakes. I'm sorry. On Lake Superior. You're

1277
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 2: so far down, it's dark all day long, it's pitch black,

1278
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 2: it's so cold. Bacteria can't live there. There's a sterile

1279
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 2: down there. It is sterile. Bacteria do not live down there.

1280
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 2: Almost nothing lives down there. So bacteria never invade your body.

1281
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 2: So these bodies hate to get grim. They do not

1282
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 2: decompose in the normal way. They're still largely recognizable.

1283
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 1: But what has been the argument, Why haven't the families

1284
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 1: wanted to Why haven't the families wanted to bring up

1285
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 1: the remains of their relatives.

1286
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 2: One of them did for a while until she found

1287
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:00,080
Speaker 2: out her she's an only child, also deb Shampa or

1288
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 2: two days go to Milwaukee. She's a sixteen year old

1289
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 2: girl when her dad's ship goes down, and they're very

1290
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 2: close at first. She wanted to and his brother was

1291
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:12,240
Speaker 2: in Vietnam. And here's a little story he's thirteen years

1292
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 2: old in the Great Depression when his dad dies suddenly.

1293
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 2: He's the oldest of five kids. What do you do

1294
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 2: if you're in rural If you're in rural Wisconsin, at

1295
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 2: that point, you drop out of school and you start working.

1296
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 2: These guys are tough dudes. So he paid for his

1297
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 2: kid and your brothers to get through school. He joins

1298
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:28,040
Speaker 2: the military, sense checks back. He was decorated himself, gets

1299
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 2: in a ship, makes good money, and gives the money

1300
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:31,919
Speaker 2: back to his family. But he always promises his brother

1301
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:34,439
Speaker 2: in Vietnam, if anything ever happens to you, I will

1302
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:36,280
Speaker 2: go to Vietnam and I will bring you back. And

1303
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 2: he said that more than once. So when this ship

1304
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 2: goes down, his brother wants to do the same thing.

1305
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 2: I want to go down and bring you back. But

1306
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:46,320
Speaker 2: deb Champeaux realize, a it's very dangerous. They've made three drives,

1307
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 2: three dives down there no accidents, but it's very dangerous

1308
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 2: to do that stuff. Two the other people are also

1309
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 2: on the ship, and she said in the Marines, you

1310
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 2: never leave your men. So that was the ethos of

1311
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 2: leaving the guys on the ship. So they all agree

1312
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 2: they're not going to come up and they're all basically

1313
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 2: entombed there.

1314
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:07,920
Speaker 1: Essentially, they're all accounted for that.

1315
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 2: I can't say for sure, well I can, because by

1316
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 2: now something would have happened. All twenty nine men are

1317
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 2: on one side of the other. You would never be

1318
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:16,480
Speaker 2: in the middle of that ship anyway.

1319
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 1: But I'm just conditions were such that no one could

1320
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 1: be No one would be on deck. It'd be like

1321
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 1: laughable deck.

1322
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:26,560
Speaker 2: Exactly, and laughable is right, and no no fence railing

1323
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 2: even on top of.

1324
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:30,880
Speaker 1: That, and so fast that no one ever attempted to like,

1325
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 1: no lifeboats ever washed ashore.

1326
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 2: The lifeboats dead, but only if they popped out on

1327
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 2: their way down.

1328
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:37,320
Speaker 1: I see.

1329
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:39,080
Speaker 2: And these things were destroyed.

1330
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 1: Okay, but no sign that someone had taken any kind

1331
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 1: of steps to do that.

1332
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 2: The one life jacket is the only time we have

1333
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 2: that anybody felt that, you know, doom was apparent. These

1334
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 2: guys usually didn't wear life jackets. Some of these guys

1335
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 2: couldn't swim. It seems crazy to me, but coast got

1336
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 2: ever tested for it. And Ransom Condy, there's a name

1337
01:01:57,520 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 2: for you. The nickname was Handsome Ransom Condy. He told

1338
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 2: us daughter. All he does is prolonged the agony. So

1339
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 2: these guys and yeah, you have ten minutes in net

1340
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 2: water anyway.

1341
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:08,960
Speaker 3: Kind of a fatal It's like, God, why bother kind

1342
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 3: of thing?

1343
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 2: That's what that was the that was the mindset.

1344
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: So it's it's it's assumed that the men drown.

1345
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 2: Yes, I think proven basically, h so fast I answer

1346
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 2: your question. I don't think anyone's gone down there and

1347
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 2: counted the head count kind of the the dead.

1348
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 3: What was going on with the other captain?

1349
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 2: Uh, he was fighting for his life, of course, thirty

1350
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 2: forty footers, but he was not quite in as bad

1351
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 2: a place. He's an hour behind.

1352
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 3: Did he also take he did take the northern.

1353
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 2: The northern route. Yeah, and he's another aggressive guys. This

1354
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 2: is unusual, but his radars working, so they certainly avoided

1355
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 2: Careb Island. They got a map in there showing the

1356
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 2: two routes they took. Man, they took a wide swing

1357
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 2: around that whole thing. He told his wheelsman, we ain't

1358
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 2: coming anywhere near this thing, right, I mean, I don't

1359
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 2: want to see it. And with there's no reason to.

1360
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 1: Coming near the six fathom shoal exactly.

1361
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 5: That's that's death without an SOS call. He realizes that

1362
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:14,360
Speaker 5: something's awry when assuming I mean he loses contact, he

1363
01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:16,320
Speaker 5: doesn't get any response on the radio or I mean

1364
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 5: Bernie Cooper And at what point, at what point do

1365
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:20,600
Speaker 5: they realize something's happened.

1366
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 2: They come to it slowly because again he's fighting for

1367
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 2: his life. Yeah, he's an hour behind. So the worst

1368
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 2: of it lasts about an hour. And that's where the

1369
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 2: Fitzgerald was. It's still bad when he comes through thirty

1370
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 2: forty foot or whatever. But so he's keeping unmonitored, but

1371
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 2: you only check it in every half an hour of

1372
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 2: an hour. But he loses them on the radar. That

1373
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 2: concerns him, but that's possible, that can happen. Then he

1374
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 2: tells his guys the power might have gone out on

1375
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 2: the ship, which does happen. The electrical systems can pop out.

1376
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:50,720
Speaker 2: But after an hour he realized this is not right,

1377
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:53,160
Speaker 2: so he calls the coast Guard. And I hate to

1378
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 2: be critical of the coast Guard. These guys have saved

1379
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 2: thousands of lives, and I got many of them in

1380
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 2: the book. These guys risk their own lives, very very good.

1381
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 2: But the seue Locks Coast Guard station did not come

1382
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 2: through that night. They had two ships that did not

1383
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 2: go out.

1384
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 1: And the guy wouldn't It wouldn't have mattered.

1385
01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:12,200
Speaker 2: It wouldn't have mattered, but you gotta be ready.

1386
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:15,880
Speaker 1: But anyway, no, I understand the criticism. I'm saying, it wasn't.

1387
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:18,480
Speaker 2: No, it was im material. You're dead right, Yeah, no,

1388
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 2: punt intend it's sorry. But the captain Cooper of the

1389
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:26,680
Speaker 2: Anderson calls the Sioux group in in the seue locks

1390
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 2: and talking to a petty officer branch. This guy's young buck,

1391
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:35,880
Speaker 2: and he asked Cooper to go from channel sixteen to

1392
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 2: channel twelve because channel sixteen is for emergencies. He's reporting

1393
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 2: the memphistial being missing. Is there a greater emergency than that?

1394
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:46,000
Speaker 2: I mean, what's even close? This guy's just not getting it,

1395
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 2: and Cooper's trying to get through to them, Hey, I

1396
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 2: think the ship is missing. When they finally get the

1397
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:53,640
Speaker 2: white Fish Bay at nine o'clock at night, he's certain

1398
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 2: that it's gone. There's no reason why we wouldn't pass him.

1399
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 2: It wouldn't be in home.

1400
01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:58,240
Speaker 1: What time did the ship break apart?

1401
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:02,800
Speaker 2: Seven o'clock ten somewhere in there, and that time of

1402
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:05,360
Speaker 2: you're dark. Oh yeah, absolutely, it's been dark for a

1403
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 2: while at that point, it's like four point thirty, you

1404
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:11,720
Speaker 2: know that area. So the petty officer Branch testifies a

1405
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:15,440
Speaker 2: few days later and asks to explain himself his various responses,

1406
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:18,160
Speaker 2: and he says, I thought it was important, but at

1407
01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:21,560
Speaker 2: that time not urgent, and I can't explain that answer.

1408
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 2: So it doesn't Again, it didn't matter as far as

1409
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 2: what happened on It's still that's a Cooper's dealing with.

1410
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:31,320
Speaker 2: When they get to Whitefish Bay, they've not even weighed anchor,

1411
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 2: and coastguard says, can you go back out and look

1412
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 2: for the Fitzgerald.

1413
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 1: So it says to who, Cooper of the Anderson want

1414
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:42,360
Speaker 1: to take a iron ore freighter and go look for it? Yes?

1415
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:45,160
Speaker 2: And you just got in like this, yeah, skin of

1416
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 2: your teeth. You're happy to be alive, and so is

1417
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:49,560
Speaker 2: the crew. It's the worst home he's ever seen his

1418
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:52,160
Speaker 2: entire career. And they ask him before you even drop

1419
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:54,680
Speaker 2: anchor to go back out, and you're like, I said.

1420
01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 1: To take a loaded freighter out six hundred.

1421
01:05:57,400 --> 01:05:59,439
Speaker 2: Feet some oh, I was actually longer at that point,

1422
01:05:59,480 --> 01:05:59,959
Speaker 2: seven hundred.

1423
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:01,320
Speaker 1: What the hell is he supposed to do?

1424
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 2: It's I just gave a shrug for the radio. It's

1425
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:08,480
Speaker 2: a fool's mission. And they know damn well that you

1426
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 2: don't lose seven hundred twenty nine feet of steal. It's

1427
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 2: a fool's mission. They know that. But and the Bradley

1428
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 2: in fifty eight and the Morrell in sixty six, great

1429
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 2: first person testimony we've got in the book from the guys.

1430
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:24,400
Speaker 2: There are three guys in one raft and four guys

1431
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:26,000
Speaker 2: another raft, and end up being two and one because

1432
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:28,080
Speaker 2: the guys died on the raft and stayed on the raft.

1433
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 2: They didn't have the energy to throw them over at

1434
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 2: that point, at these horrible wrecks, and they said, we're freezing.

1435
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:36,280
Speaker 2: We have no energy to even grab a rope by

1436
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 2: the time they get us. What kept us going? You know,

1437
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 2: we're dying and so on. The only thing that kept

1438
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 2: us going was the thin thread of hope that's somewhere

1439
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:46,400
Speaker 2: out there is some guy in the coast Guard or

1440
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:49,240
Speaker 2: somewhere else who's willing to risk his life to save mine,

1441
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:51,360
Speaker 2: because you can't save my life any other way without

1442
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:54,840
Speaker 2: risking yours. And Coastguard guys die doing this stuff, I mean,

1443
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:57,959
Speaker 2: other guys die too many examples, of course, so coast

1444
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:00,120
Speaker 2: Guard does that in a regular basis. That's what these

1445
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:02,400
Speaker 2: guys did. And I asked Rick Bartholey, who's a twenty

1446
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:04,440
Speaker 2: two year old guy in that ship. I said, what

1447
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 2: do you think at the time? He said, we knew

1448
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:08,880
Speaker 2: it was a dumb idea, and we knew there could

1449
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:10,840
Speaker 2: be two ships in the bottom before we're done. And

1450
01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:14,360
Speaker 2: that's exactly what Cooper tells the Coastguard. We could double

1451
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:16,160
Speaker 2: the accident at this point, he said, but we didn't

1452
01:07:16,160 --> 01:07:18,920
Speaker 2: think twice because we knew they would do it for us.

1453
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:21,560
Speaker 2: And that is the Sailor's Code. And the chapter called

1454
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:24,720
Speaker 2: the Sailor's Code. All the American ships went out, and

1455
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:28,280
Speaker 2: all the ocean ships stayed in port because once again

1456
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:30,560
Speaker 2: the Salty's learned that the Great Lakes are scarier than

1457
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,800
Speaker 2: the ocean. So those guys are heroes to me.

1458
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:36,880
Speaker 1: When you say that the other the captain of the

1459
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 1: other ship, you kind of answered this, but it's what

1460
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:42,920
Speaker 1: come back on it. The cat you use the term

1461
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 1: of the captain dealership was fighting for his life, yes,

1462
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 1: like did he later describe describe it like that? I mean,

1463
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:51,200
Speaker 1: did he feel like he was in a life death situation?

1464
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 2: I should have the thing. I got my pdf my computer.

1465
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 2: How about that for a non Fiserald response, I can

1466
01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 2: find exact quote when the coastguard captain tells him to

1467
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:06,560
Speaker 2: go out. He we have his quotes and what he said,

1468
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:09,320
Speaker 2: where's that damn thing? Is right there? I'll get in

1469
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 2: a second. He said, do you know? Do you know

1470
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:14,200
Speaker 2: what the conditions are like out there? And the guy

1471
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:17,599
Speaker 2: doesn't answer, and Cooper says, again, do you know what

1472
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:20,080
Speaker 2: the conditions are like out there? And again he doesn't answer,

1473
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:22,600
Speaker 2: and I said, he didn't answer, but we can. He

1474
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:25,240
Speaker 2: had no idea because even on shore with twenty footers

1475
01:08:25,280 --> 01:08:28,400
Speaker 2: going over your building on shore, if you weren't out there,

1476
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:31,800
Speaker 2: you'd have no idea. And so Cooper knows this guy's

1477
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:33,080
Speaker 2: asking a lot and he has no idea what he's

1478
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 2: asking for. But they didn't. He didn't even stop and think,

1479
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:40,080
Speaker 2: I mean, you didn't like it, but you gotta go.

1480
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 2: And these guys are different breed.

1481
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:44,160
Speaker 6: How long were they out there?

1482
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:46,960
Speaker 2: About fourteen hours? Because that's all it takes to go

1483
01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:47,800
Speaker 2: to make a loop.

1484
01:08:48,400 --> 01:08:50,240
Speaker 1: And the scary loaded with all But that's the thing

1485
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:51,640
Speaker 1: that I keep, I know, I keep coming back, was

1486
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:53,679
Speaker 1: like loaded with all that iron orange shit.

1487
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:55,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't drop it first and go back out.

1488
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:58,240
Speaker 2: That's that's part of your problem. I mean his history board.

1489
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:04,000
Speaker 1: Do you're gonna it's crazy, do what like throw some ropes,

1490
01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 1: like you're gonna try to pull up along You're gonna

1491
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:08,560
Speaker 1: try to pull that thing up alongside a life raft.

1492
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 2: I guess, And they have in the past. They would try,

1493
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 2: but it would work. I mean, I don't know.

1494
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 3: It also could be as much about like confirming and

1495
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:20,040
Speaker 3: recovering bodies, and.

1496
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:22,200
Speaker 1: Or you'd find it a drift. I guess.

1497
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:25,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. And they found debris, they found the lifeboats. Those

1498
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:29,680
Speaker 2: things were steel, not aluminum. Even Arthur Anderson's lifeboat was

1499
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 2: destroyed by a wave, and Arthur described it, it's like

1500
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 2: taking a pop can, stepping on it and taking a

1501
01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:37,760
Speaker 2: hacksaw through it. That's what our lifeboat looked like. And

1502
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:41,200
Speaker 2: again made of steel, not of aluminum. But the way

1503
01:09:41,240 --> 01:09:43,479
Speaker 2: they dreaded, they're going back out in the seas and

1504
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 2: it's still bad and you're smashing into those waves. That's

1505
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:49,640
Speaker 2: not the scary part. The scary part is the turnaround, turnaround.

1506
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:51,960
Speaker 2: You have to pick the right wave to turn around

1507
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:53,559
Speaker 2: in to go into the trough.

1508
01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:56,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it takes fifteen minutes for those things.

1509
01:09:56,880 --> 01:10:00,360
Speaker 2: Around exactly fifteen minutes, take an hour. Yeah, these things

1510
01:10:00,360 --> 01:10:02,800
Speaker 2: they're not that. They're sixteen miles hours and they're big

1511
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:05,720
Speaker 2: and slow. So you got to And I talked to

1512
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:08,599
Speaker 2: captains about this. It's dark, you can't pick the right wave.

1513
01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:12,120
Speaker 2: It's too dark to see, like you're saying earlier. So

1514
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:15,639
Speaker 2: just making that turnaround. And Barthuli, who's not an emotional guy,

1515
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:18,679
Speaker 2: he said, trust me. When we got back into Whitefish

1516
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 2: Bay the second time, there's a lot of guys who

1517
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:24,960
Speaker 2: became very religious. Yes, who had they come to Jesus

1518
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:28,360
Speaker 2: moment on your way back, so they knew how bad

1519
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:30,880
Speaker 2: it was. So those guys were impressive. The ocean guys

1520
01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:34,360
Speaker 2: did not go out, as I said earlier. John Hayes

1521
01:10:34,360 --> 01:10:36,519
Speaker 2: had sailed in both twenty three years the Great Lakes

1522
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:39,360
Speaker 2: and twelve on the Ocean. He said, the Great Lakes

1523
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:41,559
Speaker 2: and the Ocean, it ain't even close. And anybody who's

1524
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:44,000
Speaker 2: sailed both will tell you the same thing. The Salty's

1525
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:46,719
Speaker 2: always laughed at us until they got in the Great Lakes.

1526
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:48,880
Speaker 2: Then they shut up pretty damn fast and started looking

1527
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:52,799
Speaker 2: for safe harbor and that night a half dozen American

1528
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:55,599
Speaker 2: Canadian ships went out and all the salteast stayed in bay.

1529
01:10:56,479 --> 01:10:57,599
Speaker 2: So that's the difference.

1530
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 3: Has there anything comparable happened since then?

1531
01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:07,320
Speaker 2: Rody? Great question, And by the way, this is the

1532
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 2: best damn interview I've had to check. I ad my

1533
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:15,439
Speaker 2: ignorance I had been my ignorance about the media to podcast.

1534
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:19,280
Speaker 2: I'm not kidding you. I'm getting the best questions. That's

1535
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:22,639
Speaker 2: been very impressive. So six thousand shipwrecks between eighteen seventy

1536
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 2: five and nineteen seventy five. From November tenth, nineteen seventy

1537
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:30,200
Speaker 2: five to the present, almost exactly fifty years, zero not one.

1538
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:32,760
Speaker 2: So you go from six thousand in the century to

1539
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:35,559
Speaker 2: zero for fifty years? And why is that? Just what

1540
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:38,439
Speaker 2: you said Steven earlier? Forecasting is better. They're also taking

1541
01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:42,160
Speaker 2: it more seriously. Communication. Don't just know the information, tell

1542
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 2: the captain, and tell the captain on a regular basis

1543
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 2: what they're in for today. So they had more technology

1544
01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:50,600
Speaker 2: back then. And one of my experts said, when do

1545
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:53,559
Speaker 2: you fix anything when it's broken? All right? Nine to eleven.

1546
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:56,160
Speaker 2: We're complacent. We got smart about certain things, but we

1547
01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:58,200
Speaker 2: could have done things then to be smarter. Of course,

1548
01:11:58,840 --> 01:12:02,080
Speaker 2: same thing here. But the biggest change I believe since

1549
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:06,120
Speaker 2: then is simple common sense. The author photo there on

1550
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:08,759
Speaker 2: the back is me at Whitefish Point. This is November

1551
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:10,880
Speaker 2: eleventh of last year of twenty twenty four, the day

1552
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:13,559
Speaker 2: after the anniversary. I spoke with the families the night before.

1553
01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:15,720
Speaker 2: I'm looking at about thirty to forty mile prior wins there.

1554
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:19,200
Speaker 2: I don't want too happy about ten foot waves every

1555
01:12:19,400 --> 01:12:22,840
Speaker 2: single ship that day. In my computer program on my

1556
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:26,639
Speaker 2: phone shows this. Every single ship was anchored in Whitefish Bay.

1557
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:30,559
Speaker 2: And I guarantee you in the old days, not one.

1558
01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:33,479
Speaker 2: And if you're anchoring, you're fired. You're not going to

1559
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:37,400
Speaker 2: make it or ridiculed at least, so way to day,

1560
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:40,040
Speaker 2: way to day. The next day in the Lake Superior,

1561
01:12:40,080 --> 01:12:44,439
Speaker 2: after the ship went down it was glass. Oh you

1562
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:46,519
Speaker 2: could have gone out one day later and made up

1563
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:50,960
Speaker 2: all your time straight shot. So next part of the tragedy,

1564
01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:53,559
Speaker 2: I'll added the tragedy. Eddie Bindon, forty seven years old,

1565
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:58,639
Speaker 2: first assuch An engineer high in the pecking order, handles

1566
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:01,840
Speaker 2: the engine been married twenty five years to the lovely Helen.

1567
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:05,320
Speaker 2: Her photos in there in Cleveland area more or less.

1568
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:08,479
Speaker 2: He about to celebrate the twenty fine Anniversary's about to

1569
01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:11,559
Speaker 2: retire after this trip as well. He gets from Superior,

1570
01:13:11,600 --> 01:13:15,000
Speaker 2: Wisconsin to Duluth to the jewlier store because Spirit didn't

1571
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:17,800
Speaker 2: have one. Apparently, gets a very nice twenty five year

1572
01:13:17,960 --> 01:13:21,800
Speaker 2: diamond and anniversary ring, and for reasons only he knows,

1573
01:13:21,920 --> 01:13:24,160
Speaker 2: he does not pack it in his duffel bag. He's

1574
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:26,200
Speaker 2: gonna see her in three days. She's gonna be there

1575
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:29,040
Speaker 2: on the dock he lived two hours away. He gives

1576
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:32,120
Speaker 2: it to a friend and tells his friend to mail

1577
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:33,879
Speaker 2: this to my wife and gives the address.

1578
01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:35,960
Speaker 1: That is so wild, though, man.

1579
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:39,719
Speaker 2: I cannot explain why he did that, what he thought

1580
01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:42,680
Speaker 2: any of this, But sure enough, a week later she

1581
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:45,040
Speaker 2: gets a ring she wore the rest of her life

1582
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 2: and never remarried. But stories like that, those are the

1583
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:53,479
Speaker 2: stories that no one's got. So it makes some human beings.

1584
01:13:53,479 --> 01:13:57,439
Speaker 2: That's that's the most important thing. Man.

1585
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:00,920
Speaker 1: Did you feel like when you when you started working

1586
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:03,160
Speaker 1: on the book, did you feel it necessary to reach

1587
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:04,200
Speaker 1: out to the family members?

1588
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:07,360
Speaker 2: Oh? Essential, And it took me about six months to

1589
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:09,600
Speaker 2: a year to get to them. I got lucky. The

1590
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:11,719
Speaker 2: guy who is the director of The Great Lakes Shipwreck

1591
01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 2: Museum in Whitefish Point. Bruce Lanne a true class act,

1592
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:18,240
Speaker 2: former Army captain, square jot guy, all this good stuff.

1593
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:21,400
Speaker 2: He's a big o'house State fan. But he got his

1594
01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:24,320
Speaker 2: master's agree at Eastern Mischian University in Ipsilanti. So he's

1595
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:26,600
Speaker 2: hearing me on the radio for years talking about this

1596
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:28,360
Speaker 2: stuff and reading my football books, and so and so

1597
01:14:28,400 --> 01:14:30,760
Speaker 2: I already knew me. Thank god. He read the Halifax

1598
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:33,320
Speaker 2: book and we got it along very well. He had

1599
01:14:33,320 --> 01:14:36,760
Speaker 2: the trust of the families. I did not. He was

1600
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:39,599
Speaker 2: their gatekeeper. He keeps all the wackos and the grifters

1601
01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:42,479
Speaker 2: away from them. But we got along and he told

1602
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:46,840
Speaker 2: them to trust me, and without that the book barren accounts,

1603
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:49,880
Speaker 2: in my opinion, So they trusted me, and that one

1604
01:14:49,880 --> 01:14:51,400
Speaker 2: worked out very well. They love the book, and I'm

1605
01:14:51,439 --> 01:14:52,080
Speaker 2: grateful for that.

1606
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:56,560
Speaker 1: When we say the like if I say the families,

1607
01:14:56,640 --> 01:15:02,360
Speaker 1: or if you hear the families, are there? Are there

1608
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:06,400
Speaker 1: still twenty nine families? There's some like semi cohesive units

1609
01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:09,479
Speaker 1: or are some of the families sort of dissolved and.

1610
01:15:09,360 --> 01:15:12,360
Speaker 2: Some have dissolved? Well, Eddie Bendon and his wife Helen

1611
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:15,800
Speaker 2: no kids, I see, so there you are, which is

1612
01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:16,679
Speaker 2: why I feel very.

1613
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:20,000
Speaker 1: Good about and she and she's and she's she's deceased.

1614
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:22,599
Speaker 2: Okay, I see she was forty seven at the time.

1615
01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:25,160
Speaker 1: So there's no there's no fa in that case. There's

1616
01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:26,120
Speaker 1: no family spokes.

1617
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:29,200
Speaker 2: Three or four of the cases, they're not a deckhand

1618
01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:33,120
Speaker 2: who's single. There you go. So in those cases they

1619
01:15:33,160 --> 01:15:36,559
Speaker 2: ring the bell twenty nine times every anniversary. My son

1620
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:38,280
Speaker 2: once rang the bell. He's he was eight at the

1621
01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:41,240
Speaker 2: time for Eddie Bendon and he wore a suit and tie,

1622
01:15:41,280 --> 01:15:44,360
Speaker 2: took it very seriously, practiced earlier in the day. We

1623
01:15:44,400 --> 01:15:48,960
Speaker 2: have pictures of him walking away Tyrian volunteers. Basically, so

1624
01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:52,000
Speaker 2: as through my son, I discovered Eddie Beindon, and then

1625
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:53,720
Speaker 2: I found a guy, Patrick Devine, who talked to me

1626
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:57,000
Speaker 2: late in the process. He was very reluctant deckhanded on

1627
01:15:57,040 --> 01:15:59,880
Speaker 2: the ship. Two months earlier. He was replaced by Bruce Hudson.

1628
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:02,599
Speaker 2: He's mad about it at the time. He was, Yeah,

1629
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:05,120
Speaker 2: it took ten years to get over survivor's guilt and

1630
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:07,120
Speaker 2: all this. I mean, he's in a bottle for a while.

1631
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:10,800
Speaker 2: As he said, he loved Eddie Bindon. Eddie Bindon was

1632
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:13,240
Speaker 2: his mentor and his boss and just a great guy.

1633
01:16:13,479 --> 01:16:15,600
Speaker 2: Knew his stuff and was very kind to him and

1634
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:19,000
Speaker 2: protected him. So now Eddie Beindon, you know, we'll know

1635
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:21,360
Speaker 2: about Eddie Bindon now at least. So I got to

1636
01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:23,960
Speaker 2: eat another one. Bruce Hudson. I told you that his

1637
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:27,880
Speaker 2: girlfriend's pregnant. Ruth Hudson loses her only child, and I've

1638
01:16:27,880 --> 01:16:30,000
Speaker 2: got my wife. I'm a late starter. I got a

1639
01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:31,960
Speaker 2: ten year old kid. My wife has assured me I've

1640
01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:33,439
Speaker 2: got an only child. She was very clear on this.

1641
01:16:35,560 --> 01:16:37,519
Speaker 2: You've got to and you know who the gate came. Yeah,

1642
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:40,479
Speaker 2: well there you go. Who decided that not you? Well

1643
01:16:41,280 --> 01:16:47,000
Speaker 2: to do that? Well, then no one decided that there

1644
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:48,680
Speaker 2: are accents in their accents. We can talk about that

1645
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:50,760
Speaker 2: another time, but anyway, uh.

1646
01:16:50,479 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 1: So, I just to clarify that was our best accident.

1647
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:54,080
Speaker 2: There you go.

1648
01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:57,639
Speaker 1: Everyone said that genius is a genius moment, the third one, by.

1649
01:16:57,520 --> 01:16:59,880
Speaker 2: The way, the trailers we call him. Everyone always says

1650
01:16:59,880 --> 01:17:02,559
Speaker 2: that worth the price of missioned right there. But so

1651
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:06,479
Speaker 2: Ruth Hudson, she finds out she's four foot nine and

1652
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:07,040
Speaker 2: her mo.

1653
01:17:07,439 --> 01:17:09,280
Speaker 1: On backup, This is not the girlfriend, this is his mom.

1654
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:11,680
Speaker 1: Bruce Hudson's mother, Ruth, thank you for the Claire. She

1655
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:15,120
Speaker 1: has one child, one child, She had one child. Her

1656
01:17:15,240 --> 01:17:18,120
Speaker 1: niece saw her every day, Pam Winning in the same neighborhood.

1657
01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:19,920
Speaker 1: She's been great to me and thanks for the clarification.

1658
01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:23,160
Speaker 2: So, Ruth Hudson, she's four foot nine, but she tells

1659
01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:24,680
Speaker 2: you that she's five foot five, and you believed her.

1660
01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:27,400
Speaker 2: Apparently she was a little spark plug, just full of

1661
01:17:27,520 --> 01:17:30,920
Speaker 2: energy and all this she the company called nobody. She

1662
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:34,160
Speaker 2: finds out the next day driving to her job at

1663
01:17:34,160 --> 01:17:38,080
Speaker 2: the Bunny Bell Cosmetic factory in Cleveland. On the radio,

1664
01:17:38,280 --> 01:17:40,880
Speaker 2: that's yeah, this is this is brutal, this is cruel.

1665
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:44,400
Speaker 1: This is before the time of like contacting next of

1666
01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:45,639
Speaker 1: kin before you announced.

1667
01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:47,839
Speaker 2: No, it was not. You should have proded them immediately.

1668
01:17:47,880 --> 01:17:50,280
Speaker 2: This is ninety seventy five. The company did not do

1669
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:53,200
Speaker 2: what it's supposed to do. So Dennis Anderson channel ten

1670
01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:57,880
Speaker 2: and du Luth WTL number channel eleven and Toledo. That's

1671
01:17:57,880 --> 01:17:59,519
Speaker 2: how these people find out and neighbors fight out. They

1672
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:01,720
Speaker 2: knocking your ten o'clock at night and tell you that

1673
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:06,599
Speaker 2: your dad's ship is gone. Just brutal. So she finds

1674
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:09,040
Speaker 2: out like that, and she thinks I've lost my family.

1675
01:18:09,040 --> 01:18:11,479
Speaker 2: This is you know, we're a coupled with one child.

1676
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:14,000
Speaker 2: She finds out six months later that she's gonna be

1677
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:15,000
Speaker 2: a grandmother.

1678
01:18:15,439 --> 01:18:19,080
Speaker 1: Six months later. The person ever thought to make the connection.

1679
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:22,400
Speaker 2: No, the seventeen year old girl at the time, twenty

1680
01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:23,960
Speaker 2: year old guys seventy year old girl wish back then

1681
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:26,120
Speaker 2: was not that uncommon. She didn't tell her parents that

1682
01:18:26,160 --> 01:18:28,840
Speaker 2: she was pregnant. She just starts showing into like month eight.

1683
01:18:29,320 --> 01:18:31,599
Speaker 2: That's when she calls Ruth Hudson. And that's a tough

1684
01:18:31,600 --> 01:18:34,680
Speaker 2: phone call. And Ruth at first thought, you know why

1685
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:36,679
Speaker 2: you're telling me, She goes, I'm not asking for anything.

1686
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:38,639
Speaker 2: I think you should know that you can be a grandmother.

1687
01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:42,360
Speaker 2: And she has Heather, and Ruth and Heather are very close.

1688
01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:45,240
Speaker 2: They went shopping together and so on. Heather has four

1689
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:48,920
Speaker 2: kids and the oldest is Austin now twenty five, who

1690
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:52,400
Speaker 2: looks just like Bruce Hudson apparently. And yes, Aunt Ruth

1691
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:56,000
Speaker 2: played favorites. She lost her son and she gains a

1692
01:18:56,000 --> 01:19:00,000
Speaker 2: grandson who looks just like him. It's pretty amazing. So wow,

1693
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:02,200
Speaker 2: I know these stories go on like this. I got

1694
01:19:02,200 --> 01:19:04,639
Speaker 2: to tell you one more that.

1695
01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:09,000
Speaker 1: Yes, it's like just to sure you're right, like putting

1696
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:10,559
Speaker 1: the names to it, you know what I mean, Like

1697
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:13,320
Speaker 1: you never think that you'd run into a dude who's like, no,

1698
01:19:13,439 --> 01:19:16,000
Speaker 1: I lost my father on the Edmund Fitzgerald. It's just

1699
01:19:16,040 --> 01:19:20,719
Speaker 1: like it's just like they're chimes, they're church bell chimes.

1700
01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:24,120
Speaker 2: It's a song. It's a song. We don't know anything else.

1701
01:19:24,160 --> 01:19:25,559
Speaker 2: I didn't know a single name.

1702
01:19:25,520 --> 01:19:27,960
Speaker 1: Church belt chime till it rained twenty nine times.

1703
01:19:27,680 --> 01:19:29,960
Speaker 2: That's right, And now they were got thirty times for

1704
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:32,559
Speaker 2: all the other accidents as well, and sort of the families.

1705
01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:37,559
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mentioned earlier, maybe I didn't the last words,

1706
01:19:37,560 --> 01:19:39,960
Speaker 2: of course, mcsorty. I did mention that we are holding

1707
01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:42,760
Speaker 2: our own. So Heidi Wilhelm is a twelve year old

1708
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:45,280
Speaker 2: girl at the time. She's the youngest of seven kids,

1709
01:19:45,320 --> 01:19:47,519
Speaker 2: and all seven kids depend on one guy on the ship.

1710
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:50,240
Speaker 2: And because the mom's raising seven kids, she's working her

1711
01:19:50,560 --> 01:19:53,800
Speaker 2: weight off. Two next door neighbor knocks in the door says,

1712
01:19:53,840 --> 01:19:56,240
Speaker 2: your dad's ship is gone. So mor mom's on the

1713
01:19:56,240 --> 01:19:58,479
Speaker 2: phone trying to get anyone to answer. No one does

1714
01:19:58,560 --> 01:20:02,080
Speaker 2: at the company, and they never called Wow, what do

1715
01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:04,240
Speaker 2: you do? And the insurance companies didn't pay in many

1716
01:20:04,240 --> 01:20:06,800
Speaker 2: cases because it's an act of God. You got some

1717
01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:07,439
Speaker 2: social security.

1718
01:20:07,479 --> 01:20:10,120
Speaker 1: In most cases, it's like inherent vice or something else.

1719
01:20:10,040 --> 01:20:13,599
Speaker 2: Exactly hair advice. There you go, you're legal to Resultso

1720
01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:18,160
Speaker 2: paying off the day and the company paid the minimum

1721
01:20:18,160 --> 01:20:21,160
Speaker 2: that they had to, basically maybe a year's salary. Well

1722
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:24,040
Speaker 2: what does that get you with seven kids? So and

1723
01:20:24,080 --> 01:20:25,200
Speaker 2: she said, what do you do? You do what we

1724
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:27,960
Speaker 2: always do in the Midwest. You suck it up. You know,

1725
01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:29,800
Speaker 2: we're gonna we're all gonna get jobs. We're all gonna

1726
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:33,400
Speaker 2: start working. They pulled through. They joined the military. They

1727
01:20:33,520 --> 01:20:36,080
Speaker 2: often went to the then very cheap state schools and

1728
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:39,000
Speaker 2: not so cheap anymore. They raised kids. They often did

1729
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:44,400
Speaker 2: a combination. Heightis now sixty two. She's got a daughter, Sarah.

1730
01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:46,439
Speaker 2: She went to the Air Force or daughter Sarah's also

1731
01:20:46,439 --> 01:20:49,439
Speaker 2: in the Air Force. And Sarah was born on the

1732
01:20:49,479 --> 01:20:54,160
Speaker 2: twenty third anniversary of the sky November tenth, nineteen ninety eight.

1733
01:20:54,240 --> 01:20:56,280
Speaker 2: The grandfather she would never meet, obviously in a really

1734
01:20:56,280 --> 01:20:59,080
Speaker 2: great guy ball accounts. When she turns twenty one, this

1735
01:20:59,200 --> 01:21:02,759
Speaker 2: is six years ago on number tenth in nineteen ninety

1736
01:21:02,840 --> 01:21:06,559
Speaker 2: or sorry, twenty nineteen, she gets a tattoo, and we're

1737
01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:08,840
Speaker 2: hanging out at wife. It's point a table kind of

1738
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:11,639
Speaker 2: like this, but you're a black table in the crews

1739
01:21:11,720 --> 01:21:14,120
Speaker 2: quarters for where these people stay when they're in town.

1740
01:21:14,360 --> 01:21:15,880
Speaker 2: We're having some beers, we're telling some stories. This is

1741
01:21:15,880 --> 01:21:18,000
Speaker 2: where I got to know these people, and this is

1742
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:22,640
Speaker 2: where I get choked up. And at this point, Heidi says,

1743
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:26,240
Speaker 2: Sarah's got a tattoo. Sarah showed you on your tattoo.

1744
01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:29,000
Speaker 2: And she pulls up her left sleeve and her hoodie

1745
01:21:29,680 --> 01:21:34,080
Speaker 2: and it says, we are holding our own oh man,

1746
01:21:34,439 --> 01:21:37,479
Speaker 2: And that's what these people do. M and has gotten

1747
01:21:37,520 --> 01:21:42,080
Speaker 2: me too, So yeah, that's how Well, that's incredible. That's

1748
01:21:42,080 --> 01:21:44,120
Speaker 2: what these people were. And I guess one of the

1749
01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:46,160
Speaker 2: points is they were heroes before the ship went down.

1750
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:51,840
Speaker 2: You're steel, your food, all this stuff. It's these guys.

1751
01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:56,559
Speaker 1: So sat that's incredible. So is it. I was telling

1752
01:21:56,560 --> 01:21:58,880
Speaker 1: my little boy this. Then I realized maybe it didn't happen,

1753
01:21:58,920 --> 01:22:03,000
Speaker 1: but I think it did. They lifted the bell from

1754
01:22:03,040 --> 01:22:05,640
Speaker 1: the ship, they did, and that's in the museum. And

1755
01:22:05,640 --> 01:22:07,760
Speaker 1: then they took another bell and engraved it with the

1756
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:11,719
Speaker 1: names and put it back and then one like Gordon

1757
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:14,120
Speaker 1: Lightfoot died, did they put his name on the bell.

1758
01:22:14,439 --> 01:22:15,840
Speaker 2: They didn't put his name on the bell, but they

1759
01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:18,720
Speaker 2: did at Mariner's Church, Okay, they added it there. They

1760
01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:21,960
Speaker 2: rang the bell for him when he died. And that's

1761
01:22:22,040 --> 01:22:24,320
Speaker 2: no small trick. By the way, any special welding tools.

1762
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:27,160
Speaker 2: You got an underwater welder who knows what he's doing.

1763
01:22:27,400 --> 01:22:30,599
Speaker 2: That bell is heavy, it's it's brass. Yeah, so bring

1764
01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:32,240
Speaker 2: that up five hundred and thirty feet. The family was

1765
01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:35,000
Speaker 2: there the next boat over when they brought the bell

1766
01:22:35,120 --> 01:22:36,800
Speaker 2: up as an emotional moment.

1767
01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:39,280
Speaker 1: Fourth, Yeah, I've seen that stuff from that.

1768
01:22:39,439 --> 01:22:41,679
Speaker 2: And they put other bell down there.

1769
01:22:41,640 --> 01:22:46,200
Speaker 1: And there's no like from what you know, there's been

1770
01:22:46,439 --> 01:22:50,040
Speaker 1: like like you didn't experience any kind of concerted pushback

1771
01:22:50,520 --> 01:22:55,040
Speaker 1: from families not wanting you to tell this story and

1772
01:22:55,160 --> 01:23:00,600
Speaker 1: investigate individuals or were some people unhappy not with me?

1773
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:04,800
Speaker 2: And so far knock on wood is for mic or

1774
01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:10,519
Speaker 2: whatever you get. No, I think it's a bamboo. I

1775
01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:12,519
Speaker 2: involve the families, and I also do something that most

1776
01:23:12,560 --> 01:23:16,519
Speaker 2: journalists don't. If I'm talking to Brody or Steven, I said,

1777
01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:19,639
Speaker 2: we're gonna talk freely. I'll send you your quotes you'll

1778
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:22,559
Speaker 2: fix them as we need to. Uh, you have you

1779
01:23:22,600 --> 01:23:25,400
Speaker 2: have a right, I believe to be quoted accurately, and

1780
01:23:25,439 --> 01:23:28,160
Speaker 2: that way you build trust. Certainly it takes longer, but

1781
01:23:28,240 --> 01:23:29,960
Speaker 2: you always get more than you think that way. Once

1782
01:23:29,960 --> 01:23:32,839
Speaker 2: it is where you're going, people will usually own their opinions.

1783
01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:35,720
Speaker 2: It's beening misquoted that I fear I get misquoted. You

1784
01:23:35,720 --> 01:23:37,400
Speaker 2: get misquoted. I'm sure of it.

1785
01:23:37,520 --> 01:23:39,760
Speaker 1: Dude. It's to the point where like it's painful to

1786
01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:44,439
Speaker 1: it's painful to participate in anything with journalists. It's and

1787
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:46,880
Speaker 1: I got friends that just that don't.

1788
01:23:47,479 --> 01:23:49,599
Speaker 2: I can't blame you in many cases I'm a journalist.

1789
01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:51,800
Speaker 2: Why because they're twenty five year old kids who I

1790
01:23:51,800 --> 01:23:53,080
Speaker 2: mean budget cuts.

1791
01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:55,680
Speaker 1: Because they already know, Like, dude, they already know what

1792
01:23:55,720 --> 01:23:56,679
Speaker 1: they want you to say.

1793
01:23:57,040 --> 01:23:58,559
Speaker 2: That's the that's the crap I hate.

1794
01:23:58,680 --> 01:24:01,599
Speaker 1: Like they need the quote they need and then they

1795
01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:04,240
Speaker 1: call you for the thing and you say, you know what,

1796
01:24:04,439 --> 01:24:06,840
Speaker 1: there's so much more to it. Let me explain. They

1797
01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:09,040
Speaker 1: don't want that, and then you're like, you know, here's

1798
01:24:09,040 --> 01:24:11,080
Speaker 1: the thing you want, but you really need to understand,

1799
01:24:11,400 --> 01:24:12,519
Speaker 1: and then it's just the thing they want.

1800
01:24:14,360 --> 01:24:16,519
Speaker 2: I've seen it in hockey locker rooms and football locker

1801
01:24:16,600 --> 01:24:19,360
Speaker 2: rooms exactly. Asked the guy the same question three or

1802
01:24:19,360 --> 01:24:22,760
Speaker 2: four times, and I hate that kind of journalism. One

1803
01:24:22,800 --> 01:24:25,240
Speaker 2: of my bosses once asked me, I was doing a

1804
01:24:25,280 --> 01:24:28,719
Speaker 2: story in the Potawata me try basketball team at Escanaba, Michigan.

1805
01:24:29,040 --> 01:24:31,360
Speaker 2: They played away games in Beaver Island and Macin Island

1806
01:24:31,360 --> 01:24:33,680
Speaker 2: because the casinos they get a little plane. So that's

1807
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:37,120
Speaker 2: pretty cool. And my guy asked me. My editor said,

1808
01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:39,800
Speaker 2: what's your angle? I said, I got no idea. I

1809
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:41,800
Speaker 2: haven't met anybody, I've not seen the place. I don't

1810
01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:43,360
Speaker 2: know what the hell I'm talking about. I got a

1811
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:46,200
Speaker 2: lot of questions, all right, I have no idea. So

1812
01:24:46,360 --> 01:24:47,880
Speaker 2: you go. And that's what you guys did here in

1813
01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:50,160
Speaker 2: this interview. You go where the interview goes. Don't just

1814
01:24:50,200 --> 01:24:53,400
Speaker 2: have your questions and force it. You get crappy interviews.

1815
01:24:54,360 --> 01:24:56,439
Speaker 2: You want a conversation. It's exactly what you guys are

1816
01:24:56,479 --> 01:24:59,320
Speaker 2: doing here. And yes, so I get nervous about that.

1817
01:24:59,360 --> 01:25:01,839
Speaker 2: So with these guys, I mean, we talked ten, fifteen,

1818
01:25:01,880 --> 01:25:05,200
Speaker 2: twenty times and to make sure that any scene involving

1819
01:25:05,240 --> 01:25:08,320
Speaker 2: them was accurate. And it's also scary how many things

1820
01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:10,519
Speaker 2: I'm talking to you. I'm writing it down things I

1821
01:25:10,520 --> 01:25:12,120
Speaker 2: got wrong or maybe they said them wrong, but I

1822
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:14,840
Speaker 2: probably got it wrong. I mean, you cover yourself that way.

1823
01:25:15,160 --> 01:25:18,000
Speaker 2: If some jackass in California says your book sucks on Amazon,

1824
01:25:18,600 --> 01:25:20,280
Speaker 2: I'm not happy about it, but it's gonna happen. Already

1825
01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:22,560
Speaker 2: has we're getting four point seven. But there's joye of

1826
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:27,800
Speaker 2: jackass in California. You know that guy exactly who knows

1827
01:25:27,800 --> 01:25:29,840
Speaker 2: more about the book than I do. So all right,

1828
01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:32,479
Speaker 2: pale whatever, and didn't sign his name naturally, he's pretty

1829
01:25:32,479 --> 01:25:34,360
Speaker 2: tough until he's time to sign your name. But whatever,

1830
01:25:34,960 --> 01:25:37,920
Speaker 2: keyboard collage as we call them. But but what I

1831
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:41,240
Speaker 2: can have is somebody who's in the book telling me

1832
01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:44,120
Speaker 2: I got it wrong in writed a book on your podcast.

1833
01:25:44,360 --> 01:25:44,640
Speaker 1: All right.

1834
01:25:44,640 --> 01:25:46,679
Speaker 2: You know what I can have happened is Krin says

1835
01:25:46,720 --> 01:25:48,240
Speaker 2: you got it wrong. You say I got it wrong,

1836
01:25:48,439 --> 01:25:50,679
Speaker 2: then I got it wrong. So I've never in fourteen

1837
01:25:50,720 --> 01:25:54,679
Speaker 2: books had anyone say misquoted, out of context, inaccurate, any

1838
01:25:54,680 --> 01:25:57,160
Speaker 2: of that. So these the people, I'm not trying to

1839
01:25:57,200 --> 01:25:59,200
Speaker 2: panner to them and writing the book. I mean, there's

1840
01:25:59,240 --> 01:26:02,880
Speaker 2: still tough things book, no question about it. But it's

1841
01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:07,920
Speaker 2: accurate and it's fair, and those people, I mean, they

1842
01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:10,240
Speaker 2: trusted me, and I appreciate it without them as not

1843
01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:10,639
Speaker 2: a book.

1844
01:26:10,760 --> 01:26:11,800
Speaker 6: Did they feel like.

1845
01:26:13,400 --> 01:26:18,360
Speaker 5: They I mean, I assume that their feelings over time changed,

1846
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:23,000
Speaker 5: you know, throughout the writing process, but did they feel

1847
01:26:23,000 --> 01:26:26,360
Speaker 5: like they'd never had a voice before. I mean, I

1848
01:26:26,720 --> 01:26:29,439
Speaker 5: that's really good because it is. It is one of

1849
01:26:29,479 --> 01:26:31,479
Speaker 5: these things where it's a line and a song to

1850
01:26:31,520 --> 01:26:34,400
Speaker 5: most people, right, And I imagine it's tough to open

1851
01:26:34,479 --> 01:26:37,559
Speaker 5: up about tragedy. But at the same time, like this

1852
01:26:37,680 --> 01:26:42,240
Speaker 5: story hasn't been there, their story hasn't been told, and

1853
01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:45,760
Speaker 5: so there's there's sort of a tension there between.

1854
01:26:46,040 --> 01:26:49,320
Speaker 2: That's well said and good insight. Six crew members we've

1855
01:26:49,320 --> 01:26:52,120
Speaker 2: never been talked to before. We've been in the shit beforehand.

1856
01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:55,080
Speaker 2: Half the families I got to the twenty nine fourteen

1857
01:26:55,720 --> 01:26:58,720
Speaker 2: I have some voice in here, and they did kind

1858
01:26:58,720 --> 01:27:00,719
Speaker 2: of say that that we've been holding us back because

1859
01:27:00,720 --> 01:27:04,120
Speaker 2: we're afraid you'll get screwed up this. I mean, I

1860
01:27:04,160 --> 01:27:07,160
Speaker 2: interview you know, rich, famous athletes and coaches. They get

1861
01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:08,679
Speaker 2: quitted all the time. They don't care all that much,

1862
01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:10,599
Speaker 2: and it's irritating to you and me a little bit,

1863
01:27:10,640 --> 01:27:12,800
Speaker 2: But so what I'll get over it. This is their

1864
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:15,280
Speaker 2: one chance, you know, this is these are people who

1865
01:27:15,280 --> 01:27:17,880
Speaker 2: are not rich, not famous, and this is the one

1866
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:21,280
Speaker 2: chance to tell their dad story in many cases. So yes,

1867
01:27:21,320 --> 01:27:24,120
Speaker 2: there was, and the Grifters have come and gone. Bruce

1868
01:27:24,200 --> 01:27:26,280
Speaker 2: Lyn again is my key there? And now we got

1869
01:27:26,280 --> 01:27:27,400
Speaker 2: to know them. I've known for three and a half

1870
01:27:27,479 --> 01:27:29,720
Speaker 2: years now. So now when I see them in Milwaukee

1871
01:27:29,800 --> 01:27:33,000
Speaker 2: or Grand Rapids, Michigan or whatever, I get big hugs

1872
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:36,280
Speaker 2: and they're crying and all this. So that's how that

1873
01:27:36,320 --> 01:27:36,880
Speaker 2: one works.

1874
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:40,880
Speaker 3: So you you mentioned like we wouldn't be sitting here

1875
01:27:41,240 --> 01:27:44,680
Speaker 3: were it not for the song. Yes, And later on

1876
01:27:44,760 --> 01:27:49,080
Speaker 3: you mentioned there's like some local news coverage. What was

1877
01:27:49,120 --> 01:27:52,519
Speaker 3: like the national awareness of this thing when it happened.

1878
01:27:52,680 --> 01:27:58,720
Speaker 2: That surprised me actually, and uh, there's far more than

1879
01:27:58,760 --> 01:27:59,080
Speaker 2: I thought.

1880
01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:01,439
Speaker 1: Oh okay, here was a national news story.

1881
01:28:01,520 --> 01:28:03,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I wasn't sure about that one. I when

1882
01:28:03,439 --> 01:28:05,080
Speaker 2: when you pitch a book proposal to New York. By

1883
01:28:05,080 --> 01:28:07,160
Speaker 2: the way, I spent six months on this one. That's

1884
01:28:07,200 --> 01:28:09,559
Speaker 2: unusually long. Usual about two months, you write about fifty pages,

1885
01:28:09,760 --> 01:28:11,479
Speaker 2: you sent it out there. You're kind of like a

1886
01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:14,400
Speaker 2: geologist telling show oil I swear to God there's oil

1887
01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:16,840
Speaker 2: in my land. I swear to God, just give me

1888
01:28:16,880 --> 01:28:17,160
Speaker 2: some money.

1889
01:28:17,200 --> 01:28:19,200
Speaker 6: Now, I'm going to show him what the time said about.

1890
01:28:19,040 --> 01:28:22,920
Speaker 2: It, exactly right, exactly So then they call your bluff

1891
01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:25,519
Speaker 2: and say, you know what, here's some money, take some tame,

1892
01:28:25,760 --> 01:28:27,400
Speaker 2: go find the oil. And you go, oh crap, they're

1893
01:28:27,400 --> 01:28:29,920
Speaker 2: better be oiled down that And I kept on getting

1894
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:34,200
Speaker 2: lucky more luck. I'm working out it not recently, obviously,

1895
01:28:34,320 --> 01:28:36,280
Speaker 2: shame on, maybe not en off hockey these days, but

1896
01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:38,000
Speaker 2: I'm working out about about a year and a half

1897
01:28:38,040 --> 01:28:40,439
Speaker 2: ago or so. And a buddy of mine, Larry Lage,

1898
01:28:40,479 --> 01:28:43,000
Speaker 2: who does associated press for the State of Michigan, covers

1899
01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:46,600
Speaker 2: all sports. We've been friends forever, and he says, you know,

1900
01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:49,280
Speaker 2: Harry Atkins wrote the first story on the Mphis Gerald.

1901
01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:52,559
Speaker 2: Harry Atkins had his job doing sports before him thirty

1902
01:28:52,680 --> 01:28:55,240
Speaker 2: years ap sports writer. I've been sitting next to Harry

1903
01:28:55,240 --> 01:28:57,880
Speaker 2: in the damn press box for decades. I had no idea.

1904
01:28:58,479 --> 01:29:00,880
Speaker 2: Usually he goes up that night with the crazy photographer.

1905
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:03,080
Speaker 2: They get a plane in the wind, they do Walla

1906
01:29:03,320 --> 01:29:06,840
Speaker 2: and he does a wonderful job. And he still had

1907
01:29:06,840 --> 01:29:10,120
Speaker 2: a copy. He's still alive. He's eighty four, he's still sharp.

1908
01:29:10,200 --> 01:29:13,000
Speaker 2: Gave me an original copy computer print out of that

1909
01:29:13,040 --> 01:29:16,840
Speaker 2: thing from seventy five and without a cell phone, without internet.

1910
01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:19,160
Speaker 1: That I picked up on the wires and sixty.

1911
01:29:18,800 --> 01:29:24,639
Speaker 2: Five hundred newspapers around the world, including La Where Life

1912
01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:27,800
Speaker 2: it was that day or the next day whatever. He

1913
01:29:27,840 --> 01:29:30,479
Speaker 2: gets that Newsweek magazine picks it up two weeks later.

1914
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:32,799
Speaker 2: He needed a beautiful job. His name is Jim Gaines.

1915
01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:35,200
Speaker 2: He went to the University of Michigan. We got mutual

1916
01:29:35,200 --> 01:29:38,719
Speaker 2: friends in common. He's still alive, he's still sharp, lucky

1917
01:29:38,760 --> 01:29:42,160
Speaker 2: as hell, and his story was so good that five

1918
01:29:42,240 --> 01:29:44,759
Speaker 2: or six lines in the song are from his article,

1919
01:29:45,000 --> 01:29:48,080
Speaker 2: which I lay out in the two article two articles,

1920
01:29:48,120 --> 01:29:50,240
Speaker 2: two chapters, third or Now and the Rolling Stone. Let's

1921
01:29:50,240 --> 01:29:51,840
Speaker 2: do the damn song. We might as well do it now.

1922
01:29:52,479 --> 01:29:55,519
Speaker 2: He got asked about the song people obviously, so. Gordon

1923
01:29:55,600 --> 01:29:57,759
Speaker 2: Lefett is an experienced sailor. He did the port heuron

1924
01:29:57,840 --> 01:30:00,040
Speaker 2: to sal to Macinaw Race. I've done that right. This

1925
01:30:00,200 --> 01:30:02,320
Speaker 2: is like three days. It's brutal. You think it's oh,

1926
01:30:02,360 --> 01:30:07,040
Speaker 2: let's go sailing. Nah, it's freezing your cold. It's miserable.

1927
01:30:07,439 --> 01:30:09,519
Speaker 2: But he's a really good sailor, and he's serious about it.

1928
01:30:10,360 --> 01:30:12,920
Speaker 2: On November tenth, nineteen seventy five, Monday night, he is

1929
01:30:12,960 --> 01:30:16,120
Speaker 2: working on a song in his attic in Toronto, and

1930
01:30:16,320 --> 01:30:19,720
Speaker 2: it's an Irish Sea shanty, the earliest song he can

1931
01:30:19,800 --> 01:30:21,080
Speaker 2: remember when he's three and a half years old. And

1932
01:30:21,080 --> 01:30:23,519
Speaker 2: he's obviously changing it, but he's working on this. He

1933
01:30:23,520 --> 01:30:25,240
Speaker 2: goes down to get some coffee. It's ten o'clock at

1934
01:30:25,320 --> 01:30:28,280
Speaker 2: night and the wind is howling in Toronto also and

1935
01:30:28,360 --> 01:30:31,040
Speaker 2: he said he had the explicit thought it must be

1936
01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:34,920
Speaker 2: hell on superior to night. He was connected at that moment.

1937
01:30:34,960 --> 01:30:36,400
Speaker 2: I mean he knew that these guys are going through.

1938
01:30:36,800 --> 01:30:39,280
Speaker 2: That's where the spirit comes from. He starts working on

1939
01:30:39,320 --> 01:30:41,759
Speaker 2: the song, doesn't play for anybody. It's too self conscious.

1940
01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:43,679
Speaker 2: The reason I was a lot of ways to screw

1941
01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:45,640
Speaker 2: this up. Remember Body Heat. By the way, if not

1942
01:30:45,720 --> 01:30:47,920
Speaker 2: seeing this movie, people go see it. It's like forty

1943
01:30:48,000 --> 01:30:51,040
Speaker 2: years old now. Launched Kathleen Turner and Mickey Rourke and

1944
01:30:51,080 --> 01:30:54,280
Speaker 2: William Hurt and at some point William Hurt's character, a lawyer,

1945
01:30:54,560 --> 01:30:58,920
Speaker 2: wants to blow up his girlfriend's husband. Bad idea and

1946
01:30:59,160 --> 01:31:03,120
Speaker 2: one of his repeat fellon bombers. Basically just teach him

1947
01:31:03,120 --> 01:31:05,920
Speaker 2: how to do it. And finally Mickey Yorke says, hey, man,

1948
01:31:06,080 --> 01:31:08,000
Speaker 2: do you have any FN idea? I can probably swear

1949
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:10,360
Speaker 2: in your thing, can't I Just there you go, you

1950
01:31:10,400 --> 01:31:12,519
Speaker 2: have any FN idea? What the hell you're doing? Because

1951
01:31:12,520 --> 01:31:14,040
Speaker 2: if you're a genius, you can think of fifty ways

1952
01:31:14,080 --> 01:31:15,719
Speaker 2: to can go wrong, and you ain't n fing genius.

1953
01:31:15,760 --> 01:31:19,400
Speaker 2: You can think of twenty five. And that's how I

1954
01:31:19,400 --> 01:31:21,160
Speaker 2: felt about the book. There are there are fifty ways

1955
01:31:21,160 --> 01:31:22,760
Speaker 2: to screw this up, and I might be able to

1956
01:31:22,760 --> 01:31:25,639
Speaker 2: think of twenty five. So and that's not how he felt.

1957
01:31:25,640 --> 01:31:26,800
Speaker 2: And I knew exactly how.

1958
01:31:26,800 --> 01:31:30,760
Speaker 1: He made one. He made one mistake. He oh, he

1959
01:31:30,800 --> 01:31:33,800
Speaker 1: made a couple mistakes. There's some ad there's some like

1960
01:31:33,880 --> 01:31:36,920
Speaker 1: assumptions about what the cook said, and he says, and

1961
01:31:36,960 --> 01:31:41,080
Speaker 1: he couldn't do Toledo, right, good, Toledo left fully loaded

1962
01:31:41,080 --> 01:31:44,639
Speaker 1: for Cleveland because he doesn't. Yeah, couldn't make Toledo.

1963
01:31:44,760 --> 01:31:46,599
Speaker 2: That was ar tisic license on that one. But everything else,

1964
01:31:46,760 --> 01:31:49,360
Speaker 2: I mean, twenty six thousand tons, all this stuff.

1965
01:31:49,560 --> 01:31:51,400
Speaker 1: The ship was the prior to the American side. I

1966
01:31:51,439 --> 01:31:53,320
Speaker 1: didn't know that was actually I didn't know that that

1967
01:31:53,439 --> 01:31:54,960
Speaker 1: was actually a nickname for the Edmunds.

1968
01:31:54,960 --> 01:31:57,839
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and these guys, the guys I talked to the sailors.

1969
01:31:57,880 --> 01:32:00,879
Speaker 2: He said, this guy nailed it. Family that he nailed.

1970
01:32:00,680 --> 01:32:02,360
Speaker 1: It in his description of the lakes, like because I

1971
01:32:02,400 --> 01:32:04,960
Speaker 1: grew up on Lake Michigan. Lake Michigan steams like young.

1972
01:32:04,840 --> 01:32:10,920
Speaker 2: Man's dreams, the islands sportsman, and they are that's where

1973
01:32:10,920 --> 01:32:13,080
Speaker 2: you learn how to fish, right, I mean in Miskegan

1974
01:32:13,080 --> 01:32:13,599
Speaker 2: Bay and all that.

1975
01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:19,880
Speaker 6: So what was the family's reception to the song?

1976
01:32:20,160 --> 01:32:23,840
Speaker 2: Well before that? So he's gonna record his new album

1977
01:32:23,840 --> 01:32:26,760
Speaker 2: in March of seventy six, about five months later, and

1978
01:32:26,920 --> 01:32:29,240
Speaker 2: they got eleven songs lined up, not this one. That's

1979
01:32:29,240 --> 01:32:31,320
Speaker 2: when he's convinced he's not ready. He's not played for anybody.

1980
01:32:31,680 --> 01:32:33,880
Speaker 2: So but each day after they do their songs, he's

1981
01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:37,320
Speaker 2: screwing around with this and his guitar. They're a tight band.

1982
01:32:37,360 --> 01:32:39,840
Speaker 2: After three and a f days, they got five days

1983
01:32:39,840 --> 01:32:41,639
Speaker 2: rented in the studio, three and f days, they're done.

1984
01:32:42,120 --> 01:32:45,040
Speaker 2: And that's how tight they are. He says, Okay, you know, gentlemen,

1985
01:32:45,080 --> 01:32:48,360
Speaker 2: good job, let's go. They're literally packing up their guitars

1986
01:32:48,680 --> 01:32:52,439
Speaker 2: and their instruments, and then the producer on the piegis

1987
01:32:52,560 --> 01:32:54,559
Speaker 2: on the PA says, why don't you try that song

1988
01:32:54,600 --> 01:32:57,639
Speaker 2: you've been screwing around with? And he says it's not ready.

1989
01:32:57,640 --> 01:33:00,320
Speaker 2: It's not ready, it's not ready. And he says, look, dude,

1990
01:33:00,360 --> 01:33:01,960
Speaker 2: I'm charging you for five days whether you play a

1991
01:33:02,000 --> 01:33:04,639
Speaker 2: damn thing or not. So I'm here now, the band

1992
01:33:04,720 --> 01:33:07,160
Speaker 2: is here, why not give it a shot. So he

1993
01:33:07,200 --> 01:33:10,280
Speaker 2: gets talked into it, and he finally says okay. So

1994
01:33:10,320 --> 01:33:11,840
Speaker 2: he says he asks him to turn the lights down,

1995
01:33:11,960 --> 01:33:14,960
Speaker 2: and he's quiet for like a minute. The drummer, Barry

1996
01:33:15,040 --> 01:33:17,880
Speaker 2: Keen still alive, and so is the bass player, God

1997
01:33:17,920 --> 01:33:19,760
Speaker 2: bless him both. He's there. He says, what do you

1998
01:33:19,760 --> 01:33:22,080
Speaker 2: want me to do? He's never heard the song. He says,

1999
01:33:22,800 --> 01:33:24,120
Speaker 2: when I want you to come in, I'll give you

2000
01:33:24,160 --> 01:33:27,759
Speaker 2: a nod. Okay, So he's going a minute and thirty

2001
01:33:27,800 --> 01:33:30,400
Speaker 2: on the song. That's where songs end in seventy five

2002
01:33:30,479 --> 01:33:33,400
Speaker 2: seventy six, and Barry thinks that, okay, you've forgotten all

2003
01:33:33,400 --> 01:33:36,639
Speaker 2: about me. Nope. At one thirty four, he leans over,

2004
01:33:36,680 --> 01:33:38,760
Speaker 2: he looks over and gives him a nod. That's when

2005
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:40,240
Speaker 2: he comes in with a thunder and lightning, you know

2006
01:33:40,280 --> 01:33:43,200
Speaker 2: that part, and he just makes it up in the

2007
01:33:43,200 --> 01:33:45,600
Speaker 2: spot and then you just keep going. After six and

2008
01:33:45,640 --> 01:33:47,240
Speaker 2: a half minutes, which is three times longer than a

2009
01:33:47,320 --> 01:33:51,240
Speaker 2: normal song, they finished and they go, that wasn't half bad.

2010
01:33:51,400 --> 01:33:53,920
Speaker 2: But he's a perfectionist. Life it is, So let's try

2011
01:33:53,960 --> 01:33:56,320
Speaker 2: it again, not as good, Try it again, not as

2012
01:33:56,840 --> 01:33:59,160
Speaker 2: three more times, four more times. That afternoon. They come

2013
01:33:59,160 --> 01:34:01,720
Speaker 2: back the next day for this one song, not as good,

2014
01:34:01,760 --> 01:34:03,840
Speaker 2: not as good, not as good, all day long, and

2015
01:34:03,920 --> 01:34:06,280
Speaker 2: finally they picked the song You Hear in the Radio.

2016
01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:08,800
Speaker 2: It's not a first take. The song You Hear in

2017
01:34:08,800 --> 01:34:11,680
Speaker 2: the Radio is the first time the band ever played it.

2018
01:34:12,400 --> 01:34:13,360
Speaker 2: And as Barry Keen, he.

2019
01:34:13,600 --> 01:34:14,880
Speaker 1: Never hit that emotion again.

2020
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:19,280
Speaker 2: Man, that's you guys are brilliant. That's exactly it. Barry Keen.

2021
01:34:19,320 --> 01:34:20,880
Speaker 2: He's been on fed albums for all kinds of.

2022
01:34:20,840 --> 01:34:22,799
Speaker 1: Can you ever hear the Dandy Warhol's cover it?

2023
01:34:23,200 --> 01:34:25,720
Speaker 2: Oh yes I have? And Billy Strings by the way,

2024
01:34:25,800 --> 01:34:28,240
Speaker 2: Billy Strings got a new version up from Traverse City, Michigan.

2025
01:34:28,560 --> 01:34:29,759
Speaker 2: It does a brilliant job.

2026
01:34:29,680 --> 01:34:32,280
Speaker 1: He does. Yeah, the Dandy Warhol's kind of phoned it

2027
01:34:32,320 --> 01:34:34,439
Speaker 1: in a little bit. Yeah, they're big drug takers.

2028
01:34:36,240 --> 01:34:38,479
Speaker 2: Agus say about that his throwing stick. So is Gordon Lightfoot.

2029
01:34:39,840 --> 01:34:41,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, he had a little problem.

2030
01:34:41,600 --> 01:34:44,559
Speaker 2: He got clean around nineteen eighty or eighty one, so that's.

2031
01:34:44,439 --> 01:34:46,080
Speaker 1: When the Dandy Warhols were getting born.

2032
01:34:46,200 --> 01:34:50,479
Speaker 2: There you go, but uh, probably true too, we're around that.

2033
01:34:50,960 --> 01:34:53,599
Speaker 2: So Barry Keane tells me, look, man, first takes happen

2034
01:34:53,680 --> 01:34:56,280
Speaker 2: once in a blue moon. First first me ever played it.

2035
01:34:56,280 --> 01:34:58,680
Speaker 2: He goes, never ever, ever, ever, said I'm willing to

2036
01:34:58,720 --> 01:35:01,040
Speaker 2: bet never in the history of rock and roll recording.

2037
01:35:01,520 --> 01:35:04,639
Speaker 2: And I asked him why and exactly where you're going Steven,

2038
01:35:04,760 --> 01:35:07,040
Speaker 2: He said, this is not a song. You think your

2039
01:35:07,040 --> 01:35:09,639
Speaker 2: way through this song. You either feel it or you don't.

2040
01:35:10,000 --> 01:35:12,439
Speaker 2: If you feel it, the technical stuff doesn't matter, you

2041
01:35:12,479 --> 01:35:14,400
Speaker 2: feel it. That's the spirit they got to hear. So

2042
01:35:14,960 --> 01:35:17,680
Speaker 2: song comes out. They're on the Midnight Special, the old

2043
01:35:17,680 --> 01:35:20,639
Speaker 2: Friday Night concert Show. You're allowed to play six songs,

2044
01:35:21,280 --> 01:35:22,639
Speaker 2: and they don't pick this one because they think there's

2045
01:35:22,640 --> 01:35:24,519
Speaker 2: no wa in hell that's gonna work. And this song

2046
01:35:24,600 --> 01:35:27,200
Speaker 2: ends up being number two in nineteen seventy six, behind

2047
01:35:27,280 --> 01:35:31,920
Speaker 2: Rod Stewart's Tonight's to Night with his hot girlfriend ritt

2048
01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:34,160
Speaker 2: Eklan cooing in the background. That's the seventies man that's

2049
01:35:34,160 --> 01:35:36,480
Speaker 2: the me generation. This song is the opposite.

2050
01:35:37,200 --> 01:35:39,960
Speaker 1: He's got a couple, he's got a couple good cuts, though, Man,

2051
01:35:40,120 --> 01:35:42,240
Speaker 1: there's no question reason to believe.

2052
01:35:42,840 --> 01:35:44,559
Speaker 2: And then when you get the mandolin and all that,

2053
01:35:44,560 --> 01:35:50,280
Speaker 2: that's good stuff. But the point is this, yeah, exactly, Yeah,

2054
01:35:50,720 --> 01:35:56,280
Speaker 2: it's not that that one. That's the mandolin, I guess

2055
01:35:56,400 --> 01:36:00,280
Speaker 2: like that. But anyway, uh, but the families, they played

2056
01:36:00,320 --> 01:36:02,479
Speaker 2: at all the reunions, they played for the grand kids

2057
01:36:02,479 --> 01:36:03,320
Speaker 2: whove never met the grandfather.

2058
01:36:03,360 --> 01:36:04,719
Speaker 1: Oh they yeah, wow.

2059
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:09,519
Speaker 2: And Cindy Reynolds, the mother of Bruce Hudson's child, she said,

2060
01:36:09,560 --> 01:36:11,160
Speaker 2: to this day it comes on the radio, I pull

2061
01:36:11,200 --> 01:36:13,720
Speaker 2: off and I cry. Really and that's that's your best

2062
01:36:13,720 --> 01:36:17,280
Speaker 2: review right there. And life became great. Friends of the families.

2063
01:36:18,120 --> 01:36:20,840
Speaker 2: He's a hero in this book. He's given money for

2064
01:36:20,960 --> 01:36:23,479
Speaker 2: scholarships in Traverse City with the Great Lakes May Time.

2065
01:36:23,680 --> 01:36:25,360
Speaker 1: I saw him play in Travers City once there.

2066
01:36:25,240 --> 01:36:28,840
Speaker 2: You go scholarships in his name the Marytime Academy. Ruth

2067
01:36:28,920 --> 01:36:33,759
Speaker 2: Hudson is on her deathbed on November ninth, twenty fifteen.

2068
01:36:33,840 --> 01:36:37,280
Speaker 2: November nine, yes, this is the day before the fortieth anniversary,

2069
01:36:37,560 --> 01:36:39,920
Speaker 2: and Gordon Leiffett goes to white fish point, not to play,

2070
01:36:39,960 --> 01:36:42,479
Speaker 2: just to pay his respects to these handful of families.

2071
01:36:42,600 --> 01:36:44,519
Speaker 2: That's what I mean. Way out of the way obviously.

2072
01:36:45,400 --> 01:36:47,360
Speaker 2: And he asked Pam, where's aunt Ruth, And she's on

2073
01:36:47,400 --> 01:36:50,720
Speaker 2: her deathbed, give me a phone, And that picture's in

2074
01:36:50,720 --> 01:36:52,800
Speaker 2: the book of him in the kitchen on the phone

2075
01:36:53,240 --> 01:36:56,200
Speaker 2: talking to Ruth hu Hudson und her deathbed, and she said,

2076
01:36:56,200 --> 01:36:58,320
Speaker 2: I promised Bruce I would be in heaven with him

2077
01:36:58,640 --> 01:37:01,080
Speaker 2: for the fortith Anniversary's been a lot too long. And

2078
01:37:01,120 --> 01:37:03,840
Speaker 2: that was her last phone call. And she gets off

2079
01:37:03,840 --> 01:37:07,840
Speaker 2: the phone and tells her tells the mom she's the child,

2080
01:37:07,920 --> 01:37:11,240
Speaker 2: and she said, I was talking to Gordon because that's

2081
01:37:11,240 --> 01:37:13,880
Speaker 2: how close they were. So he's a hero in this book.

2082
01:37:14,120 --> 01:37:15,920
Speaker 1: Man, I got to just hit you with something totally

2083
01:37:15,960 --> 01:37:18,400
Speaker 1: unrelated but a little bit kind of similar, you know.

2084
01:37:18,439 --> 01:37:20,920
Speaker 1: And Neil Young's Old Man, the Pedal Steel.

2085
01:37:21,080 --> 01:37:26,479
Speaker 2: It's in the book, was because David Cowboy Rice Weiss

2086
01:37:26,520 --> 01:37:29,360
Speaker 2: was on a date with another Cindy and they're playing

2087
01:37:29,360 --> 01:37:31,840
Speaker 2: Neil Young's one of his albums and that song is

2088
01:37:31,880 --> 01:37:32,880
Speaker 2: on it. Oh old Man.

2089
01:37:33,000 --> 01:37:34,720
Speaker 1: So they had a dude come in, They had a

2090
01:37:34,720 --> 01:37:37,200
Speaker 1: studio guy come in to do the pedal steel on

2091
01:37:37,280 --> 01:37:40,000
Speaker 1: Old Man, which is great. Well, he just was warming

2092
01:37:40,080 --> 01:37:41,920
Speaker 1: up and they had some tracks to him warming up

2093
01:37:41,920 --> 01:37:44,320
Speaker 1: and that's what they plugged into the tune. And my understanding,

2094
01:37:44,360 --> 01:37:46,360
Speaker 1: I could be wrong. My understanding, they don't know who

2095
01:37:46,360 --> 01:37:50,320
Speaker 1: the hell it was. Wow, I don't know if that's true, but.

2096
01:37:50,680 --> 01:37:52,559
Speaker 2: Trust me, the stars are about the seventies in rock

2097
01:37:52,560 --> 01:37:54,360
Speaker 2: and roll. Yeah, it was true.

2098
01:37:55,760 --> 01:37:56,920
Speaker 1: What are you gonna write next? You know?

2099
01:37:57,000 --> 01:37:59,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know yet. There's a few good options

2100
01:37:59,680 --> 01:38:00,000
Speaker 2: out there.

2101
01:38:00,439 --> 01:38:03,400
Speaker 1: Come work for me and Randall were in need of.

2102
01:38:03,640 --> 01:38:04,679
Speaker 2: We're in need of a writer.

2103
01:38:06,840 --> 01:38:07,920
Speaker 1: History.

2104
01:38:07,960 --> 01:38:08,920
Speaker 2: Careful what you wish.

2105
01:38:08,840 --> 01:38:15,320
Speaker 6: For project, as long as you maintained the compliments, you know.

2106
01:38:15,520 --> 01:38:18,439
Speaker 2: Hey, they're an easily profit trust me. Look, you know

2107
01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:20,160
Speaker 2: very quick when people know what they're talking about when

2108
01:38:20,160 --> 01:38:23,000
Speaker 2: they don't. When you do these things, and it's like

2109
01:38:23,040 --> 01:38:24,880
Speaker 2: when people call it you have you ever heard my

2110
01:38:24,920 --> 01:38:28,400
Speaker 2: podcast or not? You can tell pretty quickly. So you guys, man,

2111
01:38:28,720 --> 01:38:32,080
Speaker 2: I never had an interview like this. Twenty terms not

2112
01:38:32,120 --> 01:38:35,439
Speaker 2: defined at this table that I have to explain everything normally.

2113
01:38:35,520 --> 01:38:37,400
Speaker 1: But what kind of book are you going to do next? Sports?

2114
01:38:38,000 --> 01:38:42,080
Speaker 2: No, not sports? Probably do there are for your other

2115
01:38:42,120 --> 01:38:45,200
Speaker 2: Midwestern disasters. Sadly, then I know about that. I'll probably

2116
01:38:45,240 --> 01:38:47,880
Speaker 2: dive back into those. This one. We're dealing with movie rights.

2117
01:38:47,920 --> 01:38:48,680
Speaker 2: Now we'll talk about that.

2118
01:38:48,760 --> 01:38:50,559
Speaker 1: Sure, Man, how I was going to ask you that,

2119
01:38:50,640 --> 01:38:52,560
Speaker 1: but that I didn't ask I get too jealous.

2120
01:38:52,200 --> 01:38:55,519
Speaker 2: Well there you go. Don't don't get jealous yet, trust me, and.

2121
01:38:55,439 --> 01:38:58,080
Speaker 1: Plus text me when I should get jealous, I'll let

2122
01:38:58,080 --> 01:38:59,960
Speaker 1: you know. Just text me a Jay.

2123
01:39:00,120 --> 01:39:08,040
Speaker 2: That awesome means, dude, Jay, sit with that for a

2124
01:39:08,080 --> 01:39:13,920
Speaker 2: little while. As they said in Casablanca, Humphy vog, that's

2125
01:39:13,960 --> 01:39:18,120
Speaker 2: gonna be the start of a great franchise. Classic ending scene.

2126
01:39:19,080 --> 01:39:22,040
Speaker 1: So a Midwest disaster, because but you don't want to

2127
01:39:22,080 --> 01:39:24,600
Speaker 1: wind up that. They're like, you know, the great Midwestern

2128
01:39:24,680 --> 01:39:25,479
Speaker 1: disaster writer.

2129
01:39:25,760 --> 01:39:28,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, you want to be that guy, right, Oh, no,

2130
01:39:28,479 --> 01:39:33,599
Speaker 2: Bacon's coming. That's something bad you don't want Exactly.

2131
01:39:33,680 --> 01:39:35,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to wind up one of his books.

2132
01:39:35,240 --> 01:39:38,240
Speaker 2: So that's a possibility, the Great Halifax explosion. Talking to

2133
01:39:38,240 --> 01:39:40,920
Speaker 2: Hollywood about that for a possible five part TV series.

2134
01:39:41,960 --> 01:39:44,720
Speaker 2: Previous book let them lead about coaching my old high

2135
01:39:44,720 --> 01:39:48,080
Speaker 2: school hockey team in ann Arbor and we're Huron river Rats.

2136
01:39:48,160 --> 01:39:50,000
Speaker 2: I'm not making that up. For some reason, we're the

2137
01:39:50,000 --> 01:39:52,719
Speaker 2: only high school in America name their team the river Rats.

2138
01:39:52,760 --> 01:39:54,400
Speaker 2: Go figure on that one. That's a good one. So

2139
01:39:54,800 --> 01:39:57,280
Speaker 2: but uh, worst than in America. Coach by the worst

2140
01:39:57,280 --> 01:40:00,360
Speaker 2: player in school history. Yours truly, I stild record for

2141
01:40:00,400 --> 01:40:02,439
Speaker 2: the most games and here on uniform eighty six. I

2142
01:40:02,520 --> 01:40:04,920
Speaker 2: played all three years, played every game with the fewest

2143
01:40:04,960 --> 01:40:10,920
Speaker 2: goals zero and I played forward.

2144
01:40:12,280 --> 01:40:13,880
Speaker 1: So you're gonna do You're gonna do a book like

2145
01:40:13,920 --> 01:40:14,599
Speaker 1: How I Did It?

2146
01:40:14,720 --> 01:40:17,640
Speaker 2: No, did that book? It's in this fifth Praying, but

2147
01:40:17,640 --> 01:40:19,000
Speaker 2: we're in a third draft with Disney.

2148
01:40:19,040 --> 01:40:21,720
Speaker 6: Plus it's another Midwestern disaster story.

2149
01:40:21,479 --> 01:40:24,639
Speaker 2: And Miskegan's in it. Miskegan makes an appearance. So yes,

2150
01:40:24,760 --> 01:40:26,559
Speaker 2: so doing all that stuff first, they don't get back

2151
01:40:26,600 --> 01:40:27,000
Speaker 2: to a book.

2152
01:40:27,080 --> 01:40:31,760
Speaker 1: So like disasters like the Edmond Fitzgerald or your hockey

2153
01:40:31,920 --> 01:40:33,160
Speaker 1: worse my hockey career.

2154
01:40:33,600 --> 01:40:35,880
Speaker 2: It's actually it's a family record. Actually hold out with

2155
01:40:35,920 --> 01:40:38,719
Speaker 2: my brother here is also on the team. He also

2156
01:40:38,720 --> 01:40:40,280
Speaker 2: failed to score. I'm gonna throw his ass under the

2157
01:40:40,280 --> 01:40:42,720
Speaker 2: bus right now. He likes to point out that he

2158
01:40:42,760 --> 01:40:45,400
Speaker 2: played goalie, but hey, we all got problems, you know,

2159
01:40:45,400 --> 01:40:46,439
Speaker 2: so he didn't score goal either.

2160
01:40:48,680 --> 01:40:50,880
Speaker 5: Well, if you have any if you have any saying

2161
01:40:50,920 --> 01:40:54,040
Speaker 5: the casting for this and they're looking for a Bruce

2162
01:40:54,120 --> 01:40:55,040
Speaker 5: Hudson type.

2163
01:40:55,320 --> 01:40:58,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're thinking, let me know, Randall's the guy. Yeah,

2164
01:40:58,920 --> 01:41:00,320
Speaker 2: you can see how buff Bruce.

2165
01:41:00,600 --> 01:41:03,559
Speaker 1: By the way, Randall, instead of sending me one letter,

2166
01:41:03,640 --> 01:41:08,439
Speaker 1: send him to and it's no hot dogs and you'll

2167
01:41:08,439 --> 01:41:09,120
Speaker 1: know to get ready.

2168
01:41:09,520 --> 01:41:13,559
Speaker 2: H twelve months good news and bad news. Good news

2169
01:41:13,560 --> 01:41:16,479
Speaker 2: as you got the parts.

2170
01:41:16,920 --> 01:41:21,960
Speaker 1: Well, let me remind you of grow the hair out

2171
01:41:22,160 --> 01:41:25,320
Speaker 1: the more Randall. There's there's more to it than the hair.

2172
01:41:25,320 --> 01:41:29,080
Speaker 2: But I don't mean to make a light of Bruce Hudson, obviously,

2173
01:41:29,080 --> 01:41:31,400
Speaker 2: but Pam did say she's about four or five years

2174
01:41:31,400 --> 01:41:34,160
Speaker 2: younger than Bruce, her cousin, and she saw him every day.

2175
01:41:34,400 --> 01:41:36,720
Speaker 2: She said, whenever Bruce came over, all her little twel

2176
01:41:36,760 --> 01:41:38,080
Speaker 2: year old girlfriends all came over.

2177
01:41:37,960 --> 01:41:43,360
Speaker 1: To So listen. I'm very I'm very comfortable and with.

2178
01:41:43,280 --> 01:41:46,719
Speaker 2: Your sexuality, I landed very comfortable.

2179
01:41:47,800 --> 01:41:49,040
Speaker 1: Bruce is a striking man.

2180
01:41:49,360 --> 01:41:50,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, striking.

2181
01:41:50,160 --> 01:41:56,680
Speaker 1: He's a striking man. Like that him. The photo of

2182
01:41:56,680 --> 01:41:59,280
Speaker 1: the guys at the wedding, it's heartbreaking.

2183
01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:00,799
Speaker 2: Their human games.

2184
01:42:00,960 --> 01:42:03,559
Speaker 1: Never seen the pictures. Man, I don't like. I don't

2185
01:42:03,640 --> 01:42:05,800
Speaker 1: get it. Well, I do get it. But I mean

2186
01:42:05,840 --> 01:42:08,160
Speaker 1: it's just like it's like anything you just put and

2187
01:42:08,200 --> 01:42:10,880
Speaker 1: you're like, shit, man, he's like guys, like it looks

2188
01:42:10,920 --> 01:42:13,040
Speaker 1: like pictures of like just people from around when I

2189
01:42:13,080 --> 01:42:13,360
Speaker 1: was growing.

2190
01:42:13,439 --> 01:42:16,200
Speaker 5: I was gonna say, my parents were born on either

2191
01:42:16,280 --> 01:42:19,439
Speaker 5: end of nineteen fifty by a couple of years, and

2192
01:42:20,040 --> 01:42:22,360
Speaker 5: this just looks like every photo that they have from

2193
01:42:22,400 --> 01:42:26,120
Speaker 5: their wedding, wedding that they went to that's.

2194
01:42:25,920 --> 01:42:28,880
Speaker 2: Exactly, and then their old Kodak photos little Granny.

2195
01:42:29,000 --> 01:42:31,000
Speaker 1: It was back in that era. Those weddings would have

2196
01:42:31,040 --> 01:42:34,000
Speaker 1: been when you would take those little mints and cocktail

2197
01:42:34,040 --> 01:42:36,640
Speaker 1: peanuts and time up in a spawn sack. Yeah, and

2198
01:42:36,720 --> 01:42:37,759
Speaker 1: had a dollar dance.

2199
01:42:38,840 --> 01:42:39,840
Speaker 2: There's a classic for you.

2200
01:42:40,000 --> 01:42:42,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, was a photo of uh, some.

2201
01:42:42,800 --> 01:42:46,240
Speaker 2: Of these guys at a wedding by the second Batch photos.

2202
01:42:46,280 --> 01:42:48,240
Speaker 2: And yeah, the guy's best man went down with the ship.

2203
01:42:49,200 --> 01:42:51,719
Speaker 2: That's what happened. So as far as Hollywood goes, don't

2204
01:42:51,720 --> 01:42:54,040
Speaker 2: be too jealous yet. So the guy I'm writing the

2205
01:42:54,640 --> 01:42:57,479
Speaker 2: hockey story with Jim Bernstein, he did Mighty Ducks, he

2206
01:42:57,520 --> 01:43:01,280
Speaker 2: did Renaissance Man's Mothers, and I've done about I don't know,

2207
01:43:01,360 --> 01:43:03,320
Speaker 2: seven or eight trips out of Hoighwood for various books.

2208
01:43:03,520 --> 01:43:05,960
Speaker 2: These Hollywood meetings have you had? Have you had Howard

2209
01:43:06,000 --> 01:43:06,439
Speaker 2: meetings yet?

2210
01:43:06,600 --> 01:43:10,920
Speaker 1: Let's let's have another podcast discussion about this. Sometimes but

2211
01:43:11,000 --> 01:43:15,759
Speaker 1: you're not better. But anyway, it's like the first early

2212
01:43:15,840 --> 01:43:18,639
Speaker 1: on it would be that here's people that aren't they're

2213
01:43:18,720 --> 01:43:21,120
Speaker 1: kind of like they're come in and mind you for

2214
01:43:21,240 --> 01:43:23,599
Speaker 1: what's going on in your neck of a woods.

2215
01:43:23,640 --> 01:43:25,439
Speaker 2: They want your knowledge without paying.

2216
01:43:25,280 --> 01:43:27,000
Speaker 1: It because they're like they're not out and about and

2217
01:43:27,040 --> 01:43:29,000
Speaker 1: they're like, so, what kind of things are you in?

2218
01:43:29,200 --> 01:43:30,640
Speaker 1: And you'll be like, oh, you know about this, you

2219
01:43:30,640 --> 01:43:32,639
Speaker 1: know about that, you know about this, you know about that,

2220
01:43:32,880 --> 01:43:34,639
Speaker 1: And then later you learned this to shut up.

2221
01:43:34,960 --> 01:43:38,120
Speaker 2: Right, you just fuked over with the store. Basically, So

2222
01:43:38,680 --> 01:43:43,680
Speaker 2: these meetings in Hollywood a KOBOOKI theater, So they that probably.

2223
01:43:43,439 --> 01:43:45,320
Speaker 6: Has not been used in this Maybe.

2224
01:43:47,120 --> 01:43:47,880
Speaker 1: I don't know what it meant.

2225
01:43:48,960 --> 01:43:51,920
Speaker 2: It means it's kabook. It's all been rehearsed. It's like

2226
01:43:52,080 --> 01:43:53,680
Speaker 2: you think you're doing a pitch, but you're really not.

2227
01:43:54,479 --> 01:43:57,320
Speaker 2: So they always meetings at ten o'clock. Are it's going

2228
01:43:57,360 --> 01:43:58,639
Speaker 2: to be as ten oh five maybe ten to ten.

2229
01:43:59,120 --> 01:44:02,320
Speaker 2: How late the make you wait? As one indicator who

2230
01:44:02,400 --> 01:44:04,959
Speaker 2: shows up. Martin campbellsh up from one of my meetings.

2231
01:44:05,080 --> 01:44:08,320
Speaker 2: He's the director of Casino Royale and Zoro. Okay, that's

2232
01:44:08,320 --> 01:44:11,000
Speaker 2: a big boy meeting or the intern, right. And the

2233
01:44:11,040 --> 01:44:12,920
Speaker 2: quality of the water they give you, if they get

2234
01:44:12,920 --> 01:44:15,120
Speaker 2: the fancy, you know, the best ballatle stuff, that's one thing.

2235
01:44:15,520 --> 01:44:17,200
Speaker 2: If the interests given you a side from a cup

2236
01:44:17,240 --> 01:44:19,719
Speaker 2: of tapwater, you're just practicing. What about the middle ground,

2237
01:44:20,840 --> 01:44:23,439
Speaker 2: We gave you a nice glass. You're not Hollywood. I'm

2238
01:44:23,439 --> 01:44:27,280
Speaker 2: in Montana. I am in Bozeman, Montana. So Burnston told me.

2239
01:44:28,000 --> 01:44:29,960
Speaker 2: They said they liked it, they hated it. They say

2240
01:44:29,960 --> 01:44:31,920
Speaker 2: they loved it. They liked it if they actually paid you,

2241
01:44:32,160 --> 01:44:34,400
Speaker 2: they loved it. There's not one out of Hollywood, one

2242
01:44:34,400 --> 01:44:36,639
Speaker 2: out of love in Hollywood. And the check clears. If

2243
01:44:36,640 --> 01:44:39,639
Speaker 2: you guys say let's do lunch, we eat this actual

2244
01:44:39,640 --> 01:44:43,080
Speaker 2: food as just bs in Hollywood, that's how you say goodbye.

2245
01:44:43,160 --> 01:44:46,320
Speaker 1: I believe that this. I don't even want to say

2246
01:44:46,320 --> 01:44:47,720
Speaker 1: the name, but I have to because he's such a

2247
01:44:47,800 --> 01:44:51,439
Speaker 1: controversial character. The Congress. He said a shift a senator

2248
01:44:51,520 --> 01:44:54,200
Speaker 1: or Congressman California, Adam Schiff.

2249
01:44:54,040 --> 01:44:56,680
Speaker 2: He's a senator now from California, I believe he was

2250
01:44:56,720 --> 01:44:58,559
Speaker 2: a screenwriter. Do you know that I did not know

2251
01:44:58,600 --> 01:44:59,920
Speaker 2: that he had written some screenplays.

2252
01:45:00,360 --> 01:45:01,400
Speaker 1: I think that it was Shift.

2253
01:45:01,400 --> 01:45:03,879
Speaker 2: I'm sure shocking up, back up, I've written some screenplay.

2254
01:45:04,040 --> 01:45:07,439
Speaker 2: Don't make me a damn screenwriter? Was?

2255
01:45:07,600 --> 01:45:09,639
Speaker 1: I know it was Shift? Adam Schiff had a quote

2256
01:45:10,160 --> 01:45:14,200
Speaker 1: from his old days. He said, he said, there are

2257
01:45:14,200 --> 01:45:18,360
Speaker 1: two answers in Hollywood. Yes, and here's a check.

2258
01:45:21,800 --> 01:45:22,320
Speaker 2: How about this.

2259
01:45:22,360 --> 01:45:25,519
Speaker 1: I keep getting you and you get to the meaning.

2260
01:45:25,560 --> 01:45:30,360
Speaker 1: They go, No, we love it.

2261
01:45:30,400 --> 01:45:31,599
Speaker 2: This is great exactly.

2262
01:45:31,640 --> 01:45:33,120
Speaker 1: Oh, we're gonna get a hold of you know, we'll

2263
01:45:33,120 --> 01:45:34,880
Speaker 1: call you. Yeah, this is the last we're gonna end

2264
01:45:34,920 --> 01:45:36,679
Speaker 1: the podcast. I might to give this last bit of advice.

2265
01:45:36,800 --> 01:45:39,080
Speaker 1: This is a career advice for people. If you get

2266
01:45:39,120 --> 01:45:41,439
Speaker 1: into this world, this business, books and all that, and

2267
01:45:41,439 --> 01:45:44,080
Speaker 1: you do these and you do Hollywood meetings, here's how

2268
01:45:44,120 --> 01:45:47,280
Speaker 1: you end them. Well, let me preface this. Last night,

2269
01:45:47,360 --> 01:45:50,240
Speaker 1: my Boddy had to call my boy had to call

2270
01:45:50,400 --> 01:45:54,320
Speaker 1: my body to ask a favor. I said to him,

2271
01:45:54,400 --> 01:45:56,920
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you a pointer. I want you to

2272
01:45:56,960 --> 01:45:59,559
Speaker 1: ask the favor. I don't want you to push for

2273
01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:02,840
Speaker 1: an answer. I want you to then say, give it

2274
01:46:02,880 --> 01:46:05,160
Speaker 1: some thought and text me, and I said, that's how

2275
01:46:05,200 --> 01:46:08,400
Speaker 1: I want you to end the call. Okay, you're not

2276
01:46:08,640 --> 01:46:10,720
Speaker 1: after an answer, give it some thought and text me

2277
01:46:11,400 --> 01:46:15,599
Speaker 1: when you have a Hollywood meeting. End it by saying,

2278
01:46:16,240 --> 01:46:19,080
Speaker 1: thanks for the time. Here's what I'd like you to do.

2279
01:46:19,800 --> 01:46:22,400
Speaker 1: Get with your guys, think about it, and just give

2280
01:46:22,439 --> 01:46:25,920
Speaker 1: me a shout and just that's it.

2281
01:46:26,680 --> 01:46:27,120
Speaker 2: You know what.

2282
01:46:27,600 --> 01:46:30,320
Speaker 1: That's it I'm because and saves them going like, oh,

2283
01:46:30,360 --> 01:46:32,200
Speaker 1: it's fantastic, we're so excited.

2284
01:46:32,800 --> 01:46:37,360
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? Perhaps you've seen that

2285
01:46:37,720 --> 01:46:39,880
Speaker 2: before I did.

2286
01:46:44,720 --> 01:46:47,960
Speaker 1: And just leave it. Leave it you think about it,

2287
01:46:48,120 --> 01:46:48,960
Speaker 1: Get with your guys.

2288
01:46:49,360 --> 01:46:51,400
Speaker 5: Just let me not say I'm gonna end my next

2289
01:46:51,439 --> 01:46:52,400
Speaker 5: performance review here.

2290
01:46:52,439 --> 01:46:52,880
Speaker 1: I think.

2291
01:46:55,200 --> 01:46:58,840
Speaker 2: This is how I think I've done. You think about that.

2292
01:46:59,200 --> 01:47:02,559
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what when you're ready. You know that's

2293
01:47:02,640 --> 01:47:04,680
Speaker 2: right next year, the year after that.

2294
01:47:05,400 --> 01:47:07,960
Speaker 1: Don't rush yourself and then you hang up and it

2295
01:47:08,120 --> 01:47:08,719
Speaker 1: just never happened.

2296
01:47:08,800 --> 01:47:12,720
Speaker 2: Look, and that way, you've maintained your own dignity at least. Yeah,

2297
01:47:12,720 --> 01:47:16,559
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what. I'm all in twenty. My way.

2298
01:47:17,320 --> 01:47:19,160
Speaker 1: Your way is like sign this sign.

2299
01:47:22,400 --> 01:47:23,519
Speaker 2: Oh we love it, we love it.

2300
01:47:23,560 --> 01:47:26,719
Speaker 1: Now you don't, all right, ladies and gentlemen, The Gails

2301
01:47:26,720 --> 01:47:30,000
Speaker 1: of November, The Untold Story of the Edmund Fitzgerald by

2302
01:47:30,080 --> 01:47:37,400
Speaker 1: John you Bacon, New York Times best selling author. Dude,

2303
01:47:37,400 --> 01:47:39,400
Speaker 1: that that was a lot of fun. I'm glad you came.

2304
01:47:39,520 --> 01:47:43,479
Speaker 1: It's such a dude, I can't wait to read it.

2305
01:47:43,800 --> 01:47:45,960
Speaker 1: I'm in a little streak where I'm talking to writers.

2306
01:47:45,960 --> 01:47:47,719
Speaker 1: I haven't read the damn bookship. I'm a little behind

2307
01:47:47,760 --> 01:47:47,920
Speaker 1: on them.

2308
01:47:48,200 --> 01:47:49,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know you're talking about that's all I

2309
01:47:50,000 --> 01:47:51,640
Speaker 2: care about it. That's big and like I.

2310
01:47:51,640 --> 01:47:53,240
Speaker 1: Said earlier, people don't think about that.

2311
01:47:53,720 --> 01:47:55,240
Speaker 2: You don't have to read my book. You gotta buy it.

2312
01:47:57,680 --> 01:47:59,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, by that of course, but it's about.

2313
01:47:59,680 --> 01:48:02,360
Speaker 2: The family, is uh No. This has, when I swear

2314
01:48:02,400 --> 01:48:04,479
Speaker 2: to God, probably the best interview I've done so far.

2315
01:48:05,080 --> 01:48:06,920
Speaker 1: You know, when you feel the book, it feels good.

2316
01:48:06,960 --> 01:48:08,040
Speaker 2: Man, it's a heavy book.

2317
01:48:08,040 --> 01:48:09,840
Speaker 1: It's like it feels too much.

2318
01:48:09,920 --> 01:48:12,920
Speaker 5: Much like Hampton Side blurbed your book, you should blurb

2319
01:48:12,960 --> 01:48:15,439
Speaker 5: this podcast.

2320
01:48:15,680 --> 01:48:17,599
Speaker 2: I mean, I'd be happy to give you a shock

2321
01:48:17,680 --> 01:48:21,600
Speaker 2: in the good endorsement for my guy doesn't hunt or fish.

2322
01:48:22,360 --> 01:48:23,320
Speaker 1: No, you just feel it.

2323
01:48:23,960 --> 01:48:25,920
Speaker 2: I don't know how they're talking about normally, but when

2324
01:48:25,920 --> 01:48:30,080
Speaker 2: I'm on there were great. Everyone says I got to

2325
01:48:30,080 --> 01:48:31,840
Speaker 2: do it, and they're right. This has been fantastic.

2326
01:48:32,040 --> 01:48:34,360
Speaker 1: When you get another, uh, you know, whatever you do

2327
01:48:34,680 --> 01:48:36,439
Speaker 1: for your next book, just make just check them me

2328
01:48:36,479 --> 01:48:38,240
Speaker 1: and make sure it fits.

2329
01:48:38,400 --> 01:48:40,200
Speaker 2: YEA. We wedge a lot of.

2330
01:48:42,000 --> 01:48:43,679
Speaker 1: Even if I'm interested, Like if you do a book

2331
01:48:43,680 --> 01:48:45,439
Speaker 1: about the mob or something, I'd be like, that's cool.

2332
01:48:45,479 --> 01:48:47,439
Speaker 1: But I can't wedge it in. Right, But this has

2333
01:48:47,439 --> 01:48:49,240
Speaker 1: got like bad weather ships.

2334
01:48:49,160 --> 01:48:52,719
Speaker 2: Bad weather ships, sailors, all that good stuff, badge lee

2335
01:48:53,360 --> 01:48:57,839
Speaker 2: see free board things. I did not explain broadside waves.

2336
01:48:57,960 --> 01:48:59,800
Speaker 2: I mean I can get ten don't even this.

2337
01:49:00,120 --> 01:49:01,439
Speaker 1: I don't need to wedge it. And I can put

2338
01:49:01,439 --> 01:49:02,240
Speaker 1: this book in like this.

2339
01:49:02,320 --> 01:49:05,320
Speaker 6: That's how it feels, right Sideway seventy five ft wy.

2340
01:49:05,680 --> 01:49:08,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And it's John Youbacon dot com at

2341
01:49:08,720 --> 01:49:10,719
Speaker 2: the website book tours on there all that stuff.

2342
01:49:10,800 --> 01:49:13,000
Speaker 1: Oh, I got one last tip for you. When you

2343
01:49:13,080 --> 01:49:15,240
Speaker 1: talk to you know what they should have done. They

2344
01:49:15,240 --> 01:49:20,559
Speaker 1: should have made this book the proportions so it's like

2345
01:49:20,640 --> 01:49:21,800
Speaker 1: a big tall skin.

2346
01:49:21,880 --> 01:49:26,400
Speaker 5: I've heard that's the next that's next book publishing two

2347
01:49:26,439 --> 01:49:27,400
Speaker 5: and a half inches.

2348
01:49:27,439 --> 01:49:31,520
Speaker 1: Big tall book. Man.

2349
01:49:31,920 --> 01:49:32,799
Speaker 2: Well, let me explain.

2350
01:49:33,120 --> 01:49:35,280
Speaker 1: They shipping the gun. They shipping the gun box.

2351
01:49:35,320 --> 01:49:39,320
Speaker 2: That's right. Take that book into a bathtub. No, no

2352
01:49:39,479 --> 01:49:42,599
Speaker 2: follow me here, turn that thing around.

2353
01:49:43,120 --> 01:49:44,799
Speaker 1: John you Bacon, Thanks again, man.

2354
01:49:45,000 --> 01:49:46,679
Speaker 2: Thank you for real pleasure. Truly