WEBVTT - The 99% Invisible World, with Roman Mars 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:05.360 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:15.720 Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:19.599 My name is Robert Lamb, and I have an interview 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:22.720 for you this week that I conducted with none other 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:27.680 than Roman Mars, the podcast host and author, host of 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:32.640 the percent Invisible podcast and co author of the book 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.760 The Invisible City. So it was it was a real 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:40.280 treat to set down virtually with Roman Mars here and 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:44.919 discuss UH invisible, both the podcast and the book, UM 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:50.800 The Invisible City, UH, discussing podcasting in general, UM design 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:53.400 in general. It's a fun chat and I hope you 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:58.320 enjoy it as much as I did. Hi, Roman, welcome 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:00.720 to the show. Oh thank you so much for having me. 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:03.880 I appreciate it. I wanna start by by stating the 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:06.600 obvious that a lot of our listeners and stuffable in 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:09.200 your Mind don't really need an introduction or even a 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:12.240 reintroduction to you and your show. But for anyone out 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:17.440 there who isn't aware what is invisible and what does 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:20.360 the title mean? No apresent in Visible is about all 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:22.720 the thought that goes into things most people don't think about. 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:26.040 The idea is that you know, even these big things 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.319 like buildings, um that you know, they may be massive, 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:33.280 but the story behind them is still invisible. And that's 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:36.319 where it comes from. I was when I first started. 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:40.600 It sort of started as a show about architecture and design, 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:43.240 and it still is. I think design is still its mandate, 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:48.000 but our vision of what is designed is quite broad. 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:52.480 It's sort of any human made thing is designed. And 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:55.680 so when I first started, I gathered this collection of 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:59.280 different types of designers, product designer, an architect, a landscape 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:03.120 designer and asked them, like, what is the unifying theme 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.320 to what you do? And I was going to try 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:08.959 to name the show what that was, but I didn't 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:10.800 want to use the word design for some reason. I 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:13.000 just wanted to avoid it and make something more um, 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:16.360 poetic and evocative and um. They came to the conclusion 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.160 that if they're doing their jobs right, their job is 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.680 not visible, and so that's what the show became. I 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:25.040 think I heard the show for the first time on 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:27.160 Radio Lab and I had to look at them. This 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:31.680 would have been back in Yeah. Yeah, they did us 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:36.120 a real service by introducing us to a lot of people. 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:38.840 I mean, um, Jad and the folks were working on 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:42.120 Radio Lab at the time. Um, we we kind of 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.080 came up together in the public radio trenches and so 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:48.120 um that was just about the time when we started 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:50.919 running the shows, and so um, I think there was 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:55.160 a little bit of backslapping, a friendly you know, helping 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:58.520 out a brother in arms, that scenario. But they did 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:01.720 this a real good service. I've entered business to their audience. 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:06.040 Radio Lab always impressed me with its exceptional audio production, 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:10.000 its sound design, A show that had a particular vision 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:11.919 for I think how sound design could be used to 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:14.400 help explain a topic. And I tend to think of 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:18.640 invisible as existing, you know, within on the same shelf 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.840 and the similar category of podcast or radio show. So 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:25.000 I was wondering, like, what what is your philosophy on 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.560 invisible sound design? Well, you know, it varies. I mean 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:34.240 what I like, like I like things to be radiophonic, 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:38.160 which to me means if you were to read a 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:43.520 transcript of the show, you wouldn't fully get what the 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.400 show is trying to convey, you know, like there has 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:49.040 to be the audio element, the sound of someone's voice, 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:51.920 the sound of someone's passion, you know, and then the 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:54.000 music and you know, like in a little bit of 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:57.560 the ambient and field tape. You don't tell a different 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:00.840 story than just the words being said it. You know, 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:04.240 we we just do it to serve the story. You 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:06.680 know that you can definitely overdo it. You can sort 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:08.840 of call a lot of attention to sound design. I 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:11.920 think we sort of pitch it the way I personally 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:13.760 like it. Like I like a good amount of music. 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.680 I like switching voices, you know, like I like, you know, 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:19.920 I talk, another person talks to other person talks. It 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:22.280 keeps the ear interested. I think there's some sort of 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:28.279 there's ways that when you're conveying information, UM, varying that 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:30.320 so that the ear doesn't get bored and then you 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:33.360 sort of your mind drifts off is really important. But 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:35.120 we also kind of play it by ear like there 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:38.600 isn't like a huge, um, I don't know, just like 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.520 a standard operating procedure or a certain mandate that we 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:45.120 when it comes to sound design. We we are really talented, 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:49.520 you know, um composer and Swan Real and engineer and 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:53.479 Martin Gonzalez and you know, they just make it beautiful 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:56.279 and uh and it just feels good to me. It 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.560 was always the show I always wanted in terms of 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.440 the way it's sound and have changes your trends in 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:05.800 the podcasting industry affected the way you approach things at all. 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:09.080 I don't know about the changes in podcasting. I mean 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:12.080 you to say that, I mean, I like the show 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:13.880 the way it is because I think it serves the 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.880 way the show is. Um. That is not to say 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:20.480 that I don't love things that aren't produced to our extent. 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:23.480 Like my my favorite podcasts are two people talking, you know, 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:27.760 like and there's something really lovely about that. Um. And 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:31.080 so to me, there's just always like there are these 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:34.000 different trends or you know, just like buckets of a 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:38.520 podcast that do different things and do them well and um, 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:40.920 and I think they all can co exist kind of nicely. 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:42.919 I mean. The main thing that happened with my show 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:46.280 is that it was really designed for radio, Like I 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:50.320 made it for public radio. Um. The original episodes are 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:53.080 four minutes long because they fit into a slot that 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:57.800 would go into morning edition. And and then I was 0:05:57.839 --> 0:05:59.200 just like, well, I guess I'll put this out as 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.720 a podcast as whatever might as well. And so we did. 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:06.360 And then you know, and I say we there was 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:08.000 no weed it was doesn't mean at this point, for 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:12.240 many many many years it was just me and so UM. 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:14.800 And then when it started to find a life as 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:18.200 a podcast, UM, it was like, well, let's just keep 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:20.240 in that, like, let's make that a little bit longer 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:22.720 because I don't have to make it for minutes when 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:24.440 it becomes a podcast, and then it gets it just 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:28.039 grows and grows and grows, and eventually, uh, you know, 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:34.440 a switch flipped where the primary audience was the podcast audience, 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.280 which didn't have to adhere to some to sometime a 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:40.840 radio clock, um, and I was cutting a version for 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:44.840 the radio um, and and then it sort of was 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:46.960 off to the races and the sort of now every 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:50.799 story is what it is, um. And so in a way, 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:57.520 podcasting liberated me from what is the constraint of like 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:00.680 every type of broadcast journalists, which is like you're basically 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:02.920 either cutting to fit a time or feeling to make 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.159 a time. It's like a huge part of your job 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:09.039 as a producer. And I don't really do that anymore 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.240 based on some sort of artificial constraint. I still do 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:16.000 that based off of h my taste, Like I still 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.960 like things to be tight and you know, be purposeful 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:23.160 in their length. So in that sense, podcasting really really 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:25.680 changed and made it so like now the average show 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.360 is it's like thirty minutes long. It's like ten times longer. 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:33.320 Like it's really it's really something. Um, but this show 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.120 has kind of had its own trajectory um that I 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:39.560 don't know if it really follows the institutes of of 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:44.480 podcasting in general, but but I'm sure I'm influenced by 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:47.400 it some way. Anytime I listened to the show or 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:51.280 and engage with invisible content, I felt like I leave 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:53.360 it with my eyes just a little more open to 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.440 the design around me. Do you ever feel like, or 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:58.880 or hope that you're initiating listeners into sort of a 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:02.400 different understanding of world. Oh for sure. I mean that's 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.920 the ultimate goal. And and I know that it's effective 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:11.360 because it's been effective with me. Like, you know, I 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:14.600 studied lots of things to get to where I am. 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.720 I've been a journalist now for for twenty years, but 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:19.960 before that, I was working on in PhD and genetics. 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:23.080 I studied a lot of things. Um, I didn't have 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:28.720 a real specific knowledge of of design or architecture. I 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:30.720 was just a person who would like go on the 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:32.920 architecture door if I was in a city. You know, 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.680 and so I've always approached it as a journalist and 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:42.120 as a fan, and I've noticed that the show has 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:45.800 changed me over the years of making it, Like, as 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:49.079 I've told these stories about all the thought that goes 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:53.160 into things that most people pass by without noticing, I've 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:58.640 felt myself becoming more sort of keenly aware of the 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:02.280 world and how it functions, and actually kind of keenly 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:05.240 aware of how well we're taken care of in the 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:07.400 world in a certain way, Like it's turned me into 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:12.640 a more optimistic person to do this show, because you know, 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.880 a lot of people put a lot of care into 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:21.080 things so you don't die, like pretty consistently, or so 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:24.320 that you can operate smoothly in this world. And we 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:27.000 bump against the things that are poorly designed, and we 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:31.280 notice those we don't notice the visible things that are 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:34.960 so well designed that they pass our notice. And so 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:37.640 it has changed the way I view the world making 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:40.440 the show, and what I've heard from people has changed 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:42.319 the way that they look at the world. And that's 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:45.600 super satisfying because I think it's like it really does 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:48.360 improve your outlook of the world to think about the 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:50.679 design of things and you've been doing the show long 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.480 enough that you have listeners out there who have grown 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:58.280 up with the show, right, Yeah, we have someone who, 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:02.840 um who works the show now, Jacob Multa Medina and 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.280 her stepfather, you know, had her listen to the show 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:10.000 as a kid, you know, Like I think it's like 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:14.920 junior higher high school. So yeah, it's absurd. Yeah, a 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:16.720 lot of people have grown up with it, and it's uh, 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:19.640 it's it's pretty satisfying to have them. But when they 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:21.880 show up in there in their twenties, I'm blown away 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.240 by that. So now I guess on the other end 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.120 of the spectrum, you you still have people coming to 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:29.800 the podcast who are new to it. You've covered so 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:35.080 many design topics over the years. Um, I wonder what 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.840 your recommendation is for people who are new to it. Like, 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:41.200 I know, on your website, a visible dot Orgue, you 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:43.120 have a nice explore section that allows you to sort 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:46.600 of check out areas by topic, but in general, like, 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:49.520 do you tend to steer people towards the beginning, towards 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:53.400 the most recent or particular foundational episode, never the beginning? 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:57.760 Like I feel like when people tell me that they've 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:00.679 gone back and listen to all of them I'm like, well, 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.400 maybe I should take those down because I don't know 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:08.360 if it's worth it. UM, But I think that I 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:11.880 mostly say to listen to the most recent one. I mean, 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:16.600 the thing about an ongoing series is that no one 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:21.040 episode can um sort of encapsulate what you do. What 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:22.920 you do with an ongoing series is you're telling this 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:25.559 story over time, and it's like this weird regression plot 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:28.280 where it's like, here's a episode kind of like this, 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:29.679 and here's an episode kind of like this, and then 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.040 you draw a line through that regression plot and that 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.720 is the thesis of your show. And so no one point, 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:39.800 you know, like really exemplifies that, you know, especially you know, 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:43.360 especially when you know as makers, you're like, wow, that's 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:45.480 like it's about an eight percent of what I wanted 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:49.000 to be or you know whatever. And so mostly I 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:52.600 tell people to listen to the latest one. And you know, 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.040 we have a few classics, like there's this one called 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:57.160 Structural Integrity that want a lot of awards. That I 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.160 think is a is a good episode about you know, 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:02.959 a building almost falling down, and you know that's always exciting. 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:07.960 And what I don't want people to do is UM 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.000 in the beginning. I think it's fine to go search 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:12.160 through things that you know you're interested in and go 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:15.440 listen to them. But almost the point of the show 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:19.360 is that we're daring you without boring the subject is. 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:23.760 And what we're trying to do is, you know, is 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:27.040 the production is sort of creating this delta between how 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:29.280 boring an idea is and how we're going to present 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:31.360 it to make it so that you really, really truly 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:35.360 care about it. Um And so don't read the description 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.120 and go NA, that's not for me. Like, try if 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:39.760 you read the description and God ask not for me, 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:42.280 try just one of those and see if I can 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.880 convince you that this is interesting and applies to you 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.480 in some way. That's that's the main thing I want 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:58.120 from people when they try to show up. Thank thank 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:01.240 Now I'm a little late to the party here, but 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:04.480 I recently picked up a copy of the book Invisible 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:08.520 City that you co authored with Kirk Colstead, and it's Yeah, 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:12.800 it's a thoroughly enjoyable and insightful read, you know, highlighting 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:16.840 the details of the modern world and get going and 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:18.880 matching over what with what you just said, there were 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:20.559 you know, there were certainly sections of it that I 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:23.040 knew that I was going to be into into anything 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:27.480 dealing would say like underground infrastructure, and like the whole 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:32.360 section on infrastructure disguised as buildings and so forth. But yeah, 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:34.520 there's so much in it where suddenly there'll be a 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:37.120 section of the of the book that is dealing with 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:40.120 something that I completely take for granted sometimes every day, 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:44.400 and it's ultimately a fascinating and eliminating topic, like like 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:47.880 traffic circles for example. I mean that's the goal, is 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:49.640 that we sort of like, um, we could lure you 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:51.880 in with some things that you might be interested and 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.160 and then uh, and then we sort of lure you 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:58.280 into trying to pay attention to other things. And the 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.439 book was really interest to make because I've been making 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:05.160 audio for so long. Um, and you know, I think 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:08.800 I feel like I was approached about making a book, 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:12.240 like episode five of the podcast. There was this sort 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.280 of sense that books are the inevitable, like I don't know, 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:18.800 prize or something like, I didn't understand that. I just 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:22.360 I really wanted to make a podcast, um, and so, 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:24.560 but it took us for a long time to do it. 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.240 One of the reasons was, you know, the partnership and 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:31.280 making it with with Kirk coolest that it was required 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:33.440 that you know, he worked on it and be excited 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:39.080 about it. Um. And then the other was like, I'm 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:41.240 really into design, like in a real sense. And and 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:42.960 to me, it's like the show is designed to be 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:46.440 a podcast, and trying to you know, creating some kind 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:50.960 of deprecated, you know, transcription version of it was it 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:53.440 had no interest to me. But there was a certain 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:55.720 point where the volume of the things that we covered 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:59.320 audio is not really useful for like scrubbing through and 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:03.480 like it's cential, but it's not like, oh, I remember 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:07.040 this thing about curb cuts. What's the name of that episode? 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:09.360 And where do I find it? And what is it? 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:11.280 And do I have twenty minutes to listen to it? 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:13.600 And and stuff. And there was just a point where 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:17.240 all the stuff that we had covered in this sort 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.480 of territory we've staked out of our view of the 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:25.360 world wasn't being served by linear audio anymore. And a 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:28.280 book was kind of like felt like it was natural 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:33.000 and necessary and good and so um. So that's that's 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.160 what the book became. And so and it has a 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:36.760 lot of stuff that's from the show in it, but 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:39.080 also a lot of like new stuff that we can't 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.880 cover because you know, like as much as I enjoy 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.880 the perversity of um covering a lot of visual stuff 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.040 in an audio medium, UM to highlight the story nous 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:52.480 of it versus the aesthetics of things, UM, there's some 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:54.680 things that are just impossible to cover. And and things 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:57.520 like roundabouts where you try to describe the magic roundabout 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:00.520 which is like circles and circles and circles, and it's 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:02.320 like you can kind of get it, but I don't 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:05.280 know if you can really visualize it until um, you know, 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.600 you get some some pictures of it. Yeah. Yeah, that 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:10.600 that was definitely a part of in the book where 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.160 I was very thankful for the illustration, and I think 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:15.520 plenty of other places where you know, you're talking about 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:17.600 something and you can look at the illustration. Oh yeah, 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:19.520 that one that that's what they're talking about. I've seen 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:22.880 that thing, that particular star shape or or or whatever 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.760 the case may be, exactly exactly. It does require a 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:31.600 little bit of a little bit of help. Yeah, So 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:33.320 it's interesting that it sounded like it was kind of, 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:36.400 I don't want to say, a daunting task, but like 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:43.120 a task it was usually daunting. Its horrible. Yeah, it's 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:46.320 like it's really really hard. There's like, there's the scene 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:49.640 that I heard as we were making um the book 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.640 that was that the takeoff of the teach a man 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:54.320 to fish kind of thing, Teach the men of fish 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:56.840 and then yeah, give him an officially eats for a day, 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:01.359 teach the man official for a lifetime. Um, it's uh, 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:03.760 give a person a book they'll read for a week, 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:06.000 Teach a person to write a book, they'll never enjoy 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:11.120 anything for the rest of their last So it's really 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:14.440 really hard. Um. Yeah, But I mean like Curbly brought 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:16.199 it all together, I mean in terms of like the 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.919 writing and the kind of um organizing and project managing. 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.920 Like he really threw himself into it in a way 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:25.040 that it never would happened because one of the problems 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:29.200 with a really long deadline that a book gives you, 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:31.760 you know, like a yearlong deadline. Um, it has its 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:33.840 own problems. But when you have a weekly deadline of 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:37.000 a show at the same time, it's it's always possible 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:40.320 to occupy yourself with the immediate deadline and put off 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:43.640 the big deadline. And uh so anyway, it was really hard. 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:47.880 So well, I can said the the finished product is excellent, 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:52.680 and you you covered u this already. But the I 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:56.760 guess when one initially hears about a podcast becoming a book, 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:59.240 it's easy to think, well, okay, this is, like you said, this, 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:01.760 it's just some thing that that had to happen. This 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:04.440 is like the inevitable sort of cashier or the inevitable 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:08.399 even evolution of the thing. But but yeah, this this 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.560 doesn't feel forced at all. It's very absorbable and also 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:15.400 very just visually stylish. Thank you. I was really obviously 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:17.280 interested in the in the visuals of it, and and 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:19.280 our publisher was to they, you know, because I was 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:22.600 just like, you do understand that like designing, people listen 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.239 to our show and if the book is ugly, they 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:28.520 will never forgive you. And they sort of connected us 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:32.000 with Patrick Vale, who is the illustrator who worked on 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:36.080 you know, um hundreds of different illustrations both big and small, 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:38.440 to demonstrate what was going on, but also just to 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:40.680 kind of set the tone of it. You know. The 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.040 feel of it is is both kind of like precise, 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:46.440 but also it has a little bit of an abstraction 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.600 to it in in some instances, and I think it's 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:51.840 a beautiful object. And you're always trying to figure out 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:54.440 what to do when you create anything, or are you 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:58.040 creating something like a femoral and immediate or you're creating 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:01.919 like a permanent and beautiful object. And there's a balance 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:03.440 of that when it comes to audio all the time, 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.560 because you you could fuss over it endlessly to make 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:08.720 it a beautiful object, and you know, it's kind of 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:13.119 fleeting and ephemeral no matter what you do. Um, But 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:15.320 when you put all the effort into a book, it 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:20.600 is like it's incumbent. I think to make it. I 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.320 don't know, something's somewhat precious because of all these just 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:27.040 resources going into it, you know. Um. But I'm happy 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:30.320 with it, even though it had a a little bit 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:33.760 of an issue to figure out of of being you know, 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.000 kind of fish more foul like. It isn't really a 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.439 coffee table book. It is a book of stories. They 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:43.680 don't have to be read altogether in a row, but 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:45.359 they build on each other when they are read in 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:47.720 a row, and you kind of have to serve lots 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:50.359 of different audiences simultaneously. And again, this was something that 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.159 like Kurt and I had just endless meetings about just 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.600 the structure of the thing um, independent of the writing, 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.240 um to make it all work. So anyway, I'm glad 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:01.480 you liked it. I'm going on about it. Oh no, no, 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.359 this is all fascinating. Yeah. I have the physical version here, 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:08.640 and there's a digital version. But there is also an audiobook, right, yeah, 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:11.280 yeah there is? What was what was that like? Then? 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:15.399 Turning it back into I was horrible. It's like, I mean, 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:19.200 like I've been doing voice over you know, and narration 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:22.840 for for twenty some years at this point, reading an 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:26.040 audiobook is the hardest version of that, I think. And 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:29.320 even though and this is my own you know, like 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:33.159 style in our own writing, so you know, I know 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:36.200 the material better, but even that was exhausting. I was 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:38.919 realizing how little I talk in a row, even when 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:43.320 I record narration or to do interviews that Like, I 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:45.359 was like, oh great, I'll does knock out a couple 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.560 of hours reading or whatever, you know, every few days. 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:51.280 But I was exhausted by it. It was so hard. 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:53.320 And when and when any author and I know a 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:56.680 fair number of authors now that um you know, asked 0:20:56.720 --> 0:21:00.280 me about you know, narrating work, I'm just like unless 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:05.040 you really want to like just avoid it. It's really 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.920 it's really hard. But you know, the publishers and and 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:11.960 and I know the audience. Um, they're used to the 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:14.480 sound of my voice. I think if for some of 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:17.920 them gives a certain amount of comfort. And UM, it 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:20.000 seemed important that it. It bade me to read it. 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.680 So I'm glad with the product. I'm glad we did it. Um. 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:27.920 I'm I'm also glad that we appended an episode of 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:31.080 the show UM at the end of the audio book, 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:35.680 just because part of me felt like, if you went 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:39.600 away thinking that me reading this book is the show, 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:42.280 you don't have a full concept with the show is. 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:44.560 And so I wanted to make sure that was present there. 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:47.800 And so, uh, I think it's a nice thing to have. 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:50.240 And I think if if somebody's like, oh I really 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:52.040