1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and I have an interview 4 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: for you this week that I conducted with none other 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: than Roman Mars, the podcast host and author, host of 6 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: the percent Invisible podcast and co author of the book 7 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: The Invisible City. So it was it was a real 8 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: treat to set down virtually with Roman Mars here and 9 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,919 Speaker 1: discuss UH invisible, both the podcast and the book, UM 10 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: The Invisible City, UH, discussing podcasting in general, UM design 11 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: in general. It's a fun chat and I hope you 12 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: enjoy it as much as I did. Hi, Roman, welcome 13 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: to the show. Oh thank you so much for having me. 14 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: I appreciate it. I wanna start by by stating the 15 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: obvious that a lot of our listeners and stuffable in 16 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: your Mind don't really need an introduction or even a 17 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: reintroduction to you and your show. But for anyone out 18 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: there who isn't aware what is invisible and what does 19 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: the title mean? No apresent in Visible is about all 20 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: the thought that goes into things most people don't think about. 21 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: The idea is that you know, even these big things 22 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: like buildings, um that you know, they may be massive, 23 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: but the story behind them is still invisible. And that's 24 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: where it comes from. I was when I first started. 25 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: It sort of started as a show about architecture and design, 26 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: and it still is. I think design is still its mandate, 27 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: but our vision of what is designed is quite broad. 28 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: It's sort of any human made thing is designed. And 29 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: so when I first started, I gathered this collection of 30 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: different types of designers, product designer, an architect, a landscape 31 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: designer and asked them, like, what is the unifying theme 32 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: to what you do? And I was going to try 33 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 1: to name the show what that was, but I didn't 34 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: want to use the word design for some reason. I 35 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: just wanted to avoid it and make something more um, 36 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: poetic and evocative and um. They came to the conclusion 37 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: that if they're doing their jobs right, their job is 38 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: not visible, and so that's what the show became. I 39 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: think I heard the show for the first time on 40 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: Radio Lab and I had to look at them. This 41 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: would have been back in Yeah. Yeah, they did us 42 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: a real service by introducing us to a lot of people. 43 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: I mean, um, Jad and the folks were working on 44 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: Radio Lab at the time. Um, we we kind of 45 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: came up together in the public radio trenches and so 46 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: um that was just about the time when we started 47 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 1: running the shows, and so um, I think there was 48 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: a little bit of backslapping, a friendly you know, helping 49 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: out a brother in arms, that scenario. But they did 50 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: this a real good service. I've entered business to their audience. 51 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: Radio Lab always impressed me with its exceptional audio production, 52 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: its sound design, A show that had a particular vision 53 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: for I think how sound design could be used to 54 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: help explain a topic. And I tend to think of 55 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: invisible as existing, you know, within on the same shelf 56 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: and the similar category of podcast or radio show. So 57 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: I was wondering, like, what what is your philosophy on 58 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: invisible sound design? Well, you know, it varies. I mean 59 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: what I like, like I like things to be radiophonic, 60 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: which to me means if you were to read a 61 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: transcript of the show, you wouldn't fully get what the 62 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: show is trying to convey, you know, like there has 63 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: to be the audio element, the sound of someone's voice, 64 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: the sound of someone's passion, you know, and then the 65 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: music and you know, like in a little bit of 66 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: the ambient and field tape. You don't tell a different 67 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: story than just the words being said it. You know, 68 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: we we just do it to serve the story. You 69 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: know that you can definitely overdo it. You can sort 70 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: of call a lot of attention to sound design. I 71 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: think we sort of pitch it the way I personally 72 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: like it. Like I like a good amount of music. 73 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: I like switching voices, you know, like I like, you know, 74 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: I talk, another person talks to other person talks. It 75 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: keeps the ear interested. I think there's some sort of 76 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: there's ways that when you're conveying information, UM, varying that 77 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: so that the ear doesn't get bored and then you 78 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: sort of your mind drifts off is really important. But 79 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: we also kind of play it by ear like there 80 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: isn't like a huge, um, I don't know, just like 81 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: a standard operating procedure or a certain mandate that we 82 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: when it comes to sound design. We we are really talented, 83 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: you know, um composer and Swan Real and engineer and 84 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: Martin Gonzalez and you know, they just make it beautiful 85 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: and uh and it just feels good to me. It 86 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: was always the show I always wanted in terms of 87 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: the way it's sound and have changes your trends in 88 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: the podcasting industry affected the way you approach things at all. 89 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: I don't know about the changes in podcasting. I mean 90 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: you to say that, I mean, I like the show 91 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: the way it is because I think it serves the 92 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: way the show is. Um. That is not to say 93 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: that I don't love things that aren't produced to our extent. 94 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: Like my my favorite podcasts are two people talking, you know, 95 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: like and there's something really lovely about that. Um. And 96 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: so to me, there's just always like there are these 97 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: different trends or you know, just like buckets of a 98 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: podcast that do different things and do them well and um, 99 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: and I think they all can co exist kind of nicely. 100 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:42,919 Speaker 1: I mean. The main thing that happened with my show 101 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 1: is that it was really designed for radio, Like I 102 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: made it for public radio. Um. The original episodes are 103 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: four minutes long because they fit into a slot that 104 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: would go into morning edition. And and then I was 105 00:05:57,839 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: just like, well, I guess I'll put this out as 106 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: a podcast as whatever might as well. And so we did. 107 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: And then you know, and I say we there was 108 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: no weed it was doesn't mean at this point, for 109 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: many many many years it was just me and so UM. 110 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: And then when it started to find a life as 111 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: a podcast, UM, it was like, well, let's just keep 112 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: in that, like, let's make that a little bit longer 113 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: because I don't have to make it for minutes when 114 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: it becomes a podcast, and then it gets it just 115 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: grows and grows and grows, and eventually, uh, you know, 116 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: a switch flipped where the primary audience was the podcast audience, 117 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: which didn't have to adhere to some to sometime a 118 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: radio clock, um, and I was cutting a version for 119 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: the radio um, and and then it sort of was 120 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: off to the races and the sort of now every 121 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,799 Speaker 1: story is what it is, um. And so in a way, 122 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: podcasting liberated me from what is the constraint of like 123 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: every type of broadcast journalists, which is like you're basically 124 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: either cutting to fit a time or feeling to make 125 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: a time. It's like a huge part of your job 126 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 1: as a producer. And I don't really do that anymore 127 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: based on some sort of artificial constraint. I still do 128 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: that based off of h my taste, Like I still 129 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: like things to be tight and you know, be purposeful 130 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: in their length. So in that sense, podcasting really really 131 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: changed and made it so like now the average show 132 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: is it's like thirty minutes long. It's like ten times longer. 133 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: Like it's really it's really something. Um, but this show 134 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: has kind of had its own trajectory um that I 135 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: don't know if it really follows the institutes of of 136 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: podcasting in general, but but I'm sure I'm influenced by 137 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: it some way. Anytime I listened to the show or 138 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: and engage with invisible content, I felt like I leave 139 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: it with my eyes just a little more open to 140 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: the design around me. Do you ever feel like, or 141 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: or hope that you're initiating listeners into sort of a 142 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: different understanding of world. Oh for sure. I mean that's 143 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: the ultimate goal. And and I know that it's effective 144 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: because it's been effective with me. Like, you know, I 145 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: studied lots of things to get to where I am. 146 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: I've been a journalist now for for twenty years, but 147 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: before that, I was working on in PhD and genetics. 148 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: I studied a lot of things. Um, I didn't have 149 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: a real specific knowledge of of design or architecture. I 150 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: was just a person who would like go on the 151 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: architecture door if I was in a city. You know, 152 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: and so I've always approached it as a journalist and 153 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: as a fan, and I've noticed that the show has 154 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: changed me over the years of making it, Like, as 155 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 1: I've told these stories about all the thought that goes 156 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: into things that most people pass by without noticing, I've 157 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: felt myself becoming more sort of keenly aware of the 158 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: world and how it functions, and actually kind of keenly 159 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: aware of how well we're taken care of in the 160 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: world in a certain way, Like it's turned me into 161 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: a more optimistic person to do this show, because you know, 162 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: a lot of people put a lot of care into 163 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: things so you don't die, like pretty consistently, or so 164 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: that you can operate smoothly in this world. And we 165 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: bump against the things that are poorly designed, and we 166 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: notice those we don't notice the visible things that are 167 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: so well designed that they pass our notice. And so 168 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: it has changed the way I view the world making 169 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: the show, and what I've heard from people has changed 170 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: the way that they look at the world. And that's 171 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: super satisfying because I think it's like it really does 172 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: improve your outlook of the world to think about the 173 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: design of things and you've been doing the show long 174 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: enough that you have listeners out there who have grown 175 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: up with the show, right, Yeah, we have someone who, 176 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: um who works the show now, Jacob Multa Medina and 177 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: her stepfather, you know, had her listen to the show 178 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: as a kid, you know, Like I think it's like 179 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: junior higher high school. So yeah, it's absurd. Yeah, a 180 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: lot of people have grown up with it, and it's uh, 181 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: it's it's pretty satisfying to have them. But when they 182 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: show up in there in their twenties, I'm blown away 183 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: by that. So now I guess on the other end 184 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: of the spectrum, you you still have people coming to 185 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: the podcast who are new to it. You've covered so 186 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: many design topics over the years. Um, I wonder what 187 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: your recommendation is for people who are new to it. Like, 188 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: I know, on your website, a visible dot Orgue, you 189 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: have a nice explore section that allows you to sort 190 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: of check out areas by topic, but in general, like, 191 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: do you tend to steer people towards the beginning, towards 192 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: the most recent or particular foundational episode, never the beginning? 193 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: Like I feel like when people tell me that they've 194 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: gone back and listen to all of them I'm like, well, 195 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: maybe I should take those down because I don't know 196 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: if it's worth it. UM, But I think that I 197 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: mostly say to listen to the most recent one. I mean, 198 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: the thing about an ongoing series is that no one 199 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: episode can um sort of encapsulate what you do. What 200 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: you do with an ongoing series is you're telling this 201 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 1: story over time, and it's like this weird regression plot 202 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: where it's like, here's a episode kind of like this, 203 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 1: and here's an episode kind of like this, and then 204 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: you draw a line through that regression plot and that 205 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: is the thesis of your show. And so no one point, 206 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: you know, like really exemplifies that, you know, especially you know, 207 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: especially when you know as makers, you're like, wow, that's 208 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: like it's about an eight percent of what I wanted 209 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: to be or you know whatever. And so mostly I 210 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: tell people to listen to the latest one. And you know, 211 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: we have a few classics, like there's this one called 212 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: Structural Integrity that want a lot of awards. That I 213 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: think is a is a good episode about you know, 214 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,959 Speaker 1: a building almost falling down, and you know that's always exciting. 215 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: And what I don't want people to do is UM 216 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: in the beginning. I think it's fine to go search 217 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: through things that you know you're interested in and go 218 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 1: listen to them. But almost the point of the show 219 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: is that we're daring you without boring the subject is. 220 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: And what we're trying to do is, you know, is 221 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: the production is sort of creating this delta between how 222 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: boring an idea is and how we're going to present 223 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: it to make it so that you really, really truly 224 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: care about it. Um And so don't read the description 225 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: and go NA, that's not for me. Like, try if 226 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: you read the description and God ask not for me, 227 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: try just one of those and see if I can 228 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: convince you that this is interesting and applies to you 229 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: in some way. That's that's the main thing I want 230 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: from people when they try to show up. Thank thank 231 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: Now I'm a little late to the party here, but 232 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: I recently picked up a copy of the book Invisible 233 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: City that you co authored with Kirk Colstead, and it's Yeah, 234 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: it's a thoroughly enjoyable and insightful read, you know, highlighting 235 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: the details of the modern world and get going and 236 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: matching over what with what you just said, there were 237 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 1: you know, there were certainly sections of it that I 238 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: knew that I was going to be into into anything 239 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: dealing would say like underground infrastructure, and like the whole 240 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: section on infrastructure disguised as buildings and so forth. But yeah, 241 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: there's so much in it where suddenly there'll be a 242 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: section of the of the book that is dealing with 243 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: something that I completely take for granted sometimes every day, 244 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: and it's ultimately a fascinating and eliminating topic, like like 245 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: traffic circles for example. I mean that's the goal, is 246 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: that we sort of like, um, we could lure you 247 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: in with some things that you might be interested and 248 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: and then uh, and then we sort of lure you 249 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: into trying to pay attention to other things. And the 250 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 1: book was really interest to make because I've been making 251 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: audio for so long. Um, and you know, I think 252 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: I feel like I was approached about making a book, 253 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: like episode five of the podcast. There was this sort 254 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: of sense that books are the inevitable, like I don't know, 255 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: prize or something like, I didn't understand that. I just 256 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: I really wanted to make a podcast, um, and so, 257 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: but it took us for a long time to do it. 258 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: One of the reasons was, you know, the partnership and 259 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: making it with with Kirk coolest that it was required 260 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: that you know, he worked on it and be excited 261 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: about it. Um. And then the other was like, I'm 262 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: really into design, like in a real sense. And and 263 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: to me, it's like the show is designed to be 264 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: a podcast, and trying to you know, creating some kind 265 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: of deprecated, you know, transcription version of it was it 266 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: had no interest to me. But there was a certain 267 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: point where the volume of the things that we covered 268 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: audio is not really useful for like scrubbing through and 269 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: like it's cential, but it's not like, oh, I remember 270 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: this thing about curb cuts. What's the name of that episode? 271 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: And where do I find it? And what is it? 272 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: And do I have twenty minutes to listen to it? 273 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: And and stuff. And there was just a point where 274 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: all the stuff that we had covered in this sort 275 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: of territory we've staked out of our view of the 276 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: world wasn't being served by linear audio anymore. And a 277 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: book was kind of like felt like it was natural 278 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: and necessary and good and so um. So that's that's 279 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: what the book became. And so and it has a 280 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: lot of stuff that's from the show in it, but 281 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: also a lot of like new stuff that we can't 282 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: cover because you know, like as much as I enjoy 283 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: the perversity of um covering a lot of visual stuff 284 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: in an audio medium, UM to highlight the story nous 285 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: of it versus the aesthetics of things, UM, there's some 286 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: things that are just impossible to cover. And and things 287 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: like roundabouts where you try to describe the magic roundabout 288 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: which is like circles and circles and circles, and it's 289 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: like you can kind of get it, but I don't 290 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: know if you can really visualize it until um, you know, 291 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: you get some some pictures of it. Yeah. Yeah, that 292 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: that was definitely a part of in the book where 293 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: I was very thankful for the illustration, and I think 294 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: plenty of other places where you know, you're talking about 295 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: something and you can look at the illustration. Oh yeah, 296 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: that one that that's what they're talking about. I've seen 297 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: that thing, that particular star shape or or or whatever 298 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: the case may be, exactly exactly. It does require a 299 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: little bit of a little bit of help. Yeah, So 300 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: it's interesting that it sounded like it was kind of, 301 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: I don't want to say, a daunting task, but like 302 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: a task it was usually daunting. Its horrible. Yeah, it's 303 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: like it's really really hard. There's like, there's the scene 304 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: that I heard as we were making um the book 305 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: that was that the takeoff of the teach a man 306 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: to fish kind of thing, Teach the men of fish 307 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: and then yeah, give him an officially eats for a day, 308 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:01,359 Speaker 1: teach the man official for a lifetime. Um, it's uh, 309 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: give a person a book they'll read for a week, 310 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: Teach a person to write a book, they'll never enjoy 311 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 1: anything for the rest of their last So it's really 312 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: really hard. Um. Yeah, But I mean like Curbly brought 313 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 1: it all together, I mean in terms of like the 314 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: writing and the kind of um organizing and project managing. 315 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: Like he really threw himself into it in a way 316 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: that it never would happened because one of the problems 317 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: with a really long deadline that a book gives you, 318 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: you know, like a yearlong deadline. Um, it has its 319 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: own problems. But when you have a weekly deadline of 320 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: a show at the same time, it's it's always possible 321 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: to occupy yourself with the immediate deadline and put off 322 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: the big deadline. And uh so anyway, it was really hard. 323 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: So well, I can said the the finished product is excellent, 324 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: and you you covered u this already. But the I 325 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: guess when one initially hears about a podcast becoming a book, 326 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: it's easy to think, well, okay, this is, like you said, this, 327 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: it's just some thing that that had to happen. This 328 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: is like the inevitable sort of cashier or the inevitable 329 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: even evolution of the thing. But but yeah, this this 330 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: doesn't feel forced at all. It's very absorbable and also 331 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 1: very just visually stylish. Thank you. I was really obviously 332 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: interested in the in the visuals of it, and and 333 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: our publisher was to they, you know, because I was 334 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: just like, you do understand that like designing, people listen 335 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,239 Speaker 1: to our show and if the book is ugly, they 336 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: will never forgive you. And they sort of connected us 337 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: with Patrick Vale, who is the illustrator who worked on 338 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: you know, um hundreds of different illustrations both big and small, 339 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: to demonstrate what was going on, but also just to 340 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: kind of set the tone of it. You know. The 341 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: feel of it is is both kind of like precise, 342 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: but also it has a little bit of an abstraction 343 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: to it in in some instances, and I think it's 344 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: a beautiful object. And you're always trying to figure out 345 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: what to do when you create anything, or are you 346 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: creating something like a femoral and immediate or you're creating 347 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 1: like a permanent and beautiful object. And there's a balance 348 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: of that when it comes to audio all the time, 349 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: because you you could fuss over it endlessly to make 350 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: it a beautiful object, and you know, it's kind of 351 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: fleeting and ephemeral no matter what you do. Um, But 352 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: when you put all the effort into a book, it 353 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: is like it's incumbent. I think to make it. I 354 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: don't know, something's somewhat precious because of all these just 355 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: resources going into it, you know. Um. But I'm happy 356 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: with it, even though it had a a little bit 357 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: of an issue to figure out of of being you know, 358 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: kind of fish more foul like. It isn't really a 359 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 1: coffee table book. It is a book of stories. They 360 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: don't have to be read altogether in a row, but 361 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: they build on each other when they are read in 362 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: a row, and you kind of have to serve lots 363 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: of different audiences simultaneously. And again, this was something that 364 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: like Kurt and I had just endless meetings about just 365 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: the structure of the thing um, independent of the writing, 366 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: um to make it all work. So anyway, I'm glad 367 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: you liked it. I'm going on about it. Oh no, no, 368 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: this is all fascinating. Yeah. I have the physical version here, 369 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: and there's a digital version. But there is also an audiobook, right, yeah, 370 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: yeah there is? What was what was that like? Then? 371 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 1: Turning it back into I was horrible. It's like, I mean, 372 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: like I've been doing voice over you know, and narration 373 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: for for twenty some years at this point, reading an 374 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: audiobook is the hardest version of that, I think. And 375 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: even though and this is my own you know, like 376 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: style in our own writing, so you know, I know 377 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: the material better, but even that was exhausting. I was 378 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 1: realizing how little I talk in a row, even when 379 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: I record narration or to do interviews that Like, I 380 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: was like, oh great, I'll does knock out a couple 381 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: of hours reading or whatever, you know, every few days. 382 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: But I was exhausted by it. It was so hard. 383 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: And when and when any author and I know a 384 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: fair number of authors now that um you know, asked 385 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: me about you know, narrating work, I'm just like unless 386 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: you really want to like just avoid it. It's really 387 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: it's really hard. But you know, the publishers and and 388 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: and I know the audience. Um, they're used to the 389 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: sound of my voice. I think if for some of 390 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: them gives a certain amount of comfort. And UM, it 391 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: seemed important that it. It bade me to read it. 392 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: So I'm glad with the product. I'm glad we did it. Um. 393 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: I'm I'm also glad that we appended an episode of 394 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: the show UM at the end of the audio book, 395 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: just because part of me felt like, if you went 396 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: away thinking that me reading this book is the show, 397 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: you don't have a full concept with the show is. 398 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: And so I wanted to make sure that was present there. 399 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: And so, uh, I think it's a nice thing to have. 400 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: And I think if if somebody's like, oh I really 401 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: love it's not in visible, I want to listen to 402 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: eleven hours of it in a row. UM. It does 403 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: serve that. Um. But it was it was extremely hard. 404 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: I couldn't believe how hard it was. I was so 405 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: self conscious about it that, um, you know, we had 406 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: an independent um you know company kind of cut it together, 407 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: like who worked for the publisher and I would pre 408 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: edit it because I would mess up so much that 409 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: I would I would. I would send like an edited 410 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: version for them to go edit again, because I was 411 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: just like, I'm not this bad at this Normally I 412 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: should be. Anyway, I didn't want anyone to hear it. 413 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: Thank thank so. The title The Invisible City, Uh just 414 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: just leave open the possibility for future volumes dealing with 415 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 1: different rays of topics. Yeah, that was the idea in fact, 416 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,479 Speaker 1: when we went out and pitched it. Originally, I pitched 417 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: it as kind of a set of books like, you know, 418 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: maybe one about cities, maybe one and about sort of 419 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: um roads and you know, by ways and highways type 420 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: of thing, and and then about sort of vernacular architecture 421 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: and specific to places. Um. We ended up sort of 422 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: like making the city one, like incorporate a lot of 423 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,239 Speaker 1: that stuff already. Like as soon as we went out 424 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: with that, people were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, why don't 425 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: you just get one book instead of like plan your trilogy, 426 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 1: and um, they were totally right. But you know, this 427 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 1: goes back to the you know, the original name to 428 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: begin with is like I was making a show about design, 429 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: I wanted it to have this name. Not amercent invisible, 430 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: but I thought it was so evocative that I could 431 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: do a season about science. I could do a season 432 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: about something else. Um, there's so many things that you know, 433 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: in terms of explainatory journalism, that need to be explained better, 434 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: and most of them are pretty invisible to most of us. 435 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: So it kind of applies to a lot of things. 436 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: And so I could totally see, you know, a series 437 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: of books in different ways, or a kid's book version 438 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, I'm I'm open to it, but it 439 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: honestly hasn't the internal drive is hasn't quite like rebuilt 440 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: to like I said, like, oh my god, I really 441 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: want to go through that again. Now, the book deals 442 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,719 Speaker 1: a lot with the space where design exists between kind 443 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: of I guess government and law on one side, and 444 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 1: user desire and experience on the other. You've you've alluded 445 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: to to one half of this earlier, talking about how 446 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: how safer the world feels with a lot of the 447 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: designs we have in place. UM, I know we can't 448 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: really place a value judgment on design itself, but does 449 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: design seemed to largely have a trajectory toward user safety 450 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: and happiness? I would say so, I mean design, design 451 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: is about functionality, and and it just sort of depends 452 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: on what master it is serving at a certain moment 453 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 1: as to whether or not it is serving uh, one 454 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 1: type of audience versus another type of audience or user rather. 455 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 1: And so you know, you could say some of those 456 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: things in the real world they work at cross purposes. So, 457 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: I mean, we just did a little segment of an 458 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: episode that Delaney hal did on the show about this 459 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: idea of strodes, which is like a portmanteau between streets 460 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: and roads. And the idea here is that a road 461 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: is a conveyance to get someone from one place together 462 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: as quickly as possible. A street is a place that 463 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: you occupy and live and their stores on it and 464 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: porkbenches and things like that. And when something is truly 465 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: a road, like a highway to get from one place together, 466 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: it works well. When something is truly a street and 467 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: um it is for um loitering and hanging out and 468 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: to being in places. Um it works well when things 469 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: are strodes, when they're designed to go through quickly, but 470 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: they have all these people in the way and um 471 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: stores that people are coming in and out of and 472 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: stuff like that. Then they work poorly and they tend 473 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 1: to be really dangerous. So you could say, well, it 474 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: was designed poorly, or you know, it's it's sort of 475 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: a little bit semantic, or like how you place the 476 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: emphasis of it. You know, I would say that that's 477 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: the the tyranny of thoughtless design creates a strode versus 478 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: somebody really try to make it this way on purpose, 479 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: you know, And so we do end up with things 480 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: at the end which are poorly designed, that are dangerous, 481 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: that that do not make the world a better place. 482 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: Um they are probably created from a constraint from this 483 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: type of constituency applying it in this way and then 484 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: another one to this way, and it creates this sort 485 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: of Frankenstein, which is a poorly designed thing. And that 486 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: is a you know, a version of cultural and you 487 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: know product evolution that is a result of you know, 488 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: people putting all their two cents and to create something 489 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: that is not very functional for most people. But I 490 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: do believe that when you do think of safety and 491 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: care in minds, that we do a good job of 492 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: creating those things in the end and actually anticipating things 493 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: that you may not anticipate and hopefully never have to 494 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: anticipate when you encounter them in the real world. You know, 495 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: like that that they're the safety things in place that 496 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: hopefully just make the world a better place, make you safer, 497 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: but hopefully you never have to consider whether or not 498 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: a signpost it's a breakaway post, or whether or not 499 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: trees along the side of the road, you know, like 500 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: you know they're there to make you feel crowded so 501 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: that therefore you do not go very fast. You know, 502 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: they're meant to add some agitation to you. Roundabouts, um, 503 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: like you mentioned our perfect example. I mean, one of 504 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: the reasons why roundabouts are so safe is because they 505 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: feel so awful when you enter into one. You have 506 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 1: to be really aware and being aware and making the 507 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: built environment um break you out of your you know, 508 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: like maybe your sort of road zomblification you know is 509 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: a good thing for your safety, um, but it might 510 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: not feel like a good thing when you go through it. 511 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: But somebody thought about that for you. And so for 512 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 1: the most part, I would say we endeavor to make 513 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: things safer, but there are definitely some gaps, and mostly 514 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: it's when a bunch of people are not coming on 515 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: the same page of what the design brief really is. Yeah. 516 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: And of course in the in the book you you 517 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: talked about some designs such as those intended to keep 518 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: unhomed people from laying on park benches that sort of yea, yeah, 519 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: there's lots of hostile design, and again it's serving somebody's purpose, 520 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: Like somebody is putting it there on purpose because they're 521 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: trying to um commit a kind of social change and 522 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: social pressure UM and influence through the bill world. Now, 523 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: the thing is that as privileged people, they're kind of 524 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: doing that for you. You know, they're doing it for 525 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: your benefit it you know, to the detriment of people 526 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: who have less. And the important part about that influence 527 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: is recognizing, um, do you really want that? You know, 528 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: like if somebody's making this decision for you, and if 529 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: if you don't know about it, then obviously you can't 530 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: sort of like you have any commentary. So our first 531 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: job is to make people aware of what these spikes 532 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: and these different sort of like hostile architecture you know, 533 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: like UM interventions are, And then the second step is 534 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: to go like, well is that a result you want? 535 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: And uh, do you want to like interact with your 536 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: study to change it? You know, it's it's it's the 537 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: second part of of that um discussion. You're a stroud 538 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: example reminded me of of partlets, which are also discussed 539 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: in the book. By the time the book came out, 540 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: and and certainly by the time of my reading it, 541 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: like everyone, I think, especially in urban areas, that heard 542 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: of partlets due to their role in the pandemic. But this, Yeah, 543 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: there's also an area that's between different ideas of what 544 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: the street or the road is used for. Yeah, a 545 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: parklet is a really interesting thing. There's a sort of 546 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: movement here UM called parking Day I'm in the Bay Area, 547 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: which sort of pioneered this idea of like, well, instead 548 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: of um, you know, putting a coin in a meter 549 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: to uh, you know, rent a space for a car, 550 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: why don't we put coins in the meter and like 551 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: lay down some sod and put on put some um 552 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: chairs down. And and it's something I've covered for I mean, 553 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: I've heart like twenty something here, twenty years at this point, um. 554 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: And then it really came to pass when all of 555 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: a sudden, we're in COVID. We wanted to be together, 556 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: but we needed space away from each other and space outside. 557 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: And you know when it comes to roads. You know, 558 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: for millennia, they have been these little multimodal use cases 559 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: like they you know, the people walked on them, people 560 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: rode bikes on them, people rode horses on them, vendors 561 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: set up in the middle of them. And then over 562 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: time we just decided that oh there for cars. You know, 563 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: you know, no one us blogs on them, and you 564 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: you can cross here and here, and if you crossed 565 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: anywhere in between, you're breaking the law. And and that 566 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: was where our values lied when it came to the 567 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: design of cities. You know, it's not where I would 568 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: place my personal values, but but that's you know, we 569 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: collectively kind of thought that that was a good case. 570 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: And then COVID comes along, and all of a sudden, 571 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: the value of that space changed and we wanted it back, 572 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: like as pedestrians and people and people um drinking coffee 573 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: and so, you know, we decided to bump out these 574 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: spaces that were used for cars so that we could 575 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: be outside and enjoy things. And it was kind of 576 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: fascinating because you know, the book came out right at 577 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: the kind of beginning of COVID, and it was an 578 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: interesting time to think about the design of cities. When 579 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: this um you know, outside influence made us rethink, you know, 580 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: how our cities should be designed very rapidly, you know, 581 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: and and and and thoroughly. You know, Like because one 582 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: of the things that happens when you're thinking about design 583 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: or thinking about your city is there's a there's kind 584 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: of a solipsistic kind of the way we enter the 585 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: world is the way things are and should be, and 586 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: we don't really think about the continuum we are on 587 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: when it comes to how cities are designed and should 588 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: be designed. Um. And so when you have a rapid 589 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: kind of jolt to the system and there's a reassessment 590 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: of space and the value of space in different ways, um, 591 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: it's a good time to think about, Hey, you know, 592 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: what maybe we do think about roads is belonging to cars. 593 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: But like if you look at this book or look 594 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: through history, you will realize that roads weren't about cars. 595 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: They were it's a pretty recent phenomenon that we thought 596 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: that that's what they should be. And maybe it's worth 597 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: reassessing these things. And I think if there's any sort 598 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: of thesis of the to the book or to the show, 599 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: it's that the built world and the things we design 600 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: are a window into our values as as humans, and 601 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: they always shift and change based on those values. And 602 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: when you have this moment of crisis when it comes 603 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: to the pandemic, it really did change our value of 604 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: what a city was for and who it was for, 605 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: and what was worth giving up and what wasn't worth 606 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: giving up. And um, you know, as horrible as the 607 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: situation was, it was fascinating to sort of figure out 608 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: those reassessments and realignments. And it it's still like, I 609 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: think some of the stuff that we figured out during 610 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,239 Speaker 1: that period of time, Um, we'll still linger with us 611 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: for for a long time. And maybe that we completely 612 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: subsumed in different types of you know, normal life quote 613 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: unquote normal life will return different ways. But I do 614 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: think that there's like a sense that, yeah, these spaces 615 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: like we kind of want them back and we're never 616 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: going to relent and we're gonna give him back again. Um, 617 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: And and it's a it's a it was fascinating to 618 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: watch happened as we were talking about the books so much, 619 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 1: and also to see the results of it today. Al Right, Well, 620 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 1: the podcast is of course Invisible. The book is The 621 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: Invisible City. Roman Mars, Thanks for taking time out of 622 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 1: your day to chat with me. Oh, it was my pleasure. 623 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I really enjoyed the show too, 624 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: so it's a real honor to be on. Thank you 625 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: all right, Thanks again to Roman Mars taking time out 626 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: of his busy day to chat with me. Here again, 627 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 1: the podcast is Invisible, and you can find Invisible anywhere 628 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, obviously, and the book is The 629 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: Invisible City, which is available in all formats. Like I 630 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: said in the interview, I've got the hard version here, 631 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 1: the physical copy, and it's just it's it's really nice, 632 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: really nice design in this so I highly recommend it. 633 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: As always, I want to remind you that Stuff to 634 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is a science podcast with core episodes 635 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Monday's we do listener mail, 636 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 1: on Wednesday's we do a short form artifact or monster 637 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: fact episode, and on Fridays we do Weird House Cinema. 638 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: That's our time to set aside most serious concerns and 639 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: just talk about a weird film. Thanks as always to J. J. 640 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: Pass Way for producing the show, and if you want 641 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us, you can email us 642 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 1: at contact at Stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com. 643 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. 644 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, this is the 645 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to 646 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.