Speaker 1: Music Saved Me.
Speaker 2: How can I look at music through conversation, through the
Speaker 2: music of just somebody talking regular and just how they
Speaker 2: would and what does that reveal about the relationships to
Speaker 2: these very difficult things that they've gone through as a
Speaker 2: result of societal oppression and the prison industrial complex and
Speaker 2: all these things.
Speaker 3: I'm Lynn Hoffman and welcome to the Music Saved Me Podcast,
Speaker 3: the show where we dig deep into the impactful stories
Speaker 3: about the power of music. Please follow us and share
Speaker 3: with your friends if you don't mind, and thank you
Speaker 3: for that. On this episode, Emmy Award winning composer, lyricist, vocalist, filmmaker,
Speaker 3: social political activist, and scholar who, by the way, is
Speaker 3: working on his PhD. Just your typical underachiever, Soamora Pinther
Speaker 3: Hughes discusses his new work and his views on the
Speaker 3: force of nature as we know as music Sommora. Welcome
Speaker 3: to Music Saved Me. It's so nice to have you here.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It's an honor to be on
Speaker 2: the program.
Speaker 1: It's very fun.
Speaker 3: And interestingly enough, my sister or brother program is called
Speaker 3: taking a Walk with Buzz Night, which you are doing
Speaker 3: while we're talking right now. I'd like to let the
Speaker 3: listeners know it's a beautiful day in October. So we
Speaker 3: couldn't keep him from just sitting in a studio. You
Speaker 3: had to you had to go walk about.
Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, yeah, you know, this is my mental health practice.
Speaker 1: And it's a good one.
Speaker 3: You have such a unique musical background, starting off as
Speaker 3: a jazz pianist studying at the renowned Juilliard. Can you
Speaker 3: tell us how and when you first became attached to music.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been playing my whole life. I actually started
Speaker 2: at age two, and I was in preschool. Wow, and
Speaker 2: I had somebody came to a musician named Jacqueline Rago.
Speaker 2: She became. She came to preschool and was like going
Speaker 2: around to all the people, all the kids, you know,
Speaker 2: playing some pieces. And I was just following her around
Speaker 2: like the whole school. And so after that day she
Speaker 2: went to my parents and was like, your kid wouldn't
Speaker 2: leave me alone. So clearly he's into this music thing.
Speaker 2: And she was my first teacher. She really, you know,
Speaker 2: took me under her wing and kind of just brought
Speaker 2: me into the community of the music that she was
Speaker 2: a part of, which was venezuela and traditional music. That's
Speaker 2: what I started playing, and then I went to keeping music,
Speaker 2: then the jazz, and then I was I was kind
Speaker 2: of off and running by then, and I never stopped.
Speaker 2: So it's been, you know, the longest relationship I've ever
Speaker 2: had in my life, besides you know, with my parents,
Speaker 2: and you know, just something that I don't even really
Speaker 2: I've never experienced life without it.
Speaker 3: Your project, The Healing Project, explores themes of incarceration and
Speaker 3: violence and policing. What was the inspiration that caused you
Speaker 3: to want to tackle all of these sort of difficult
Speaker 3: issues and subjects true music.
Speaker 2: I always, you know, kind of had a desire to
Speaker 2: use music and art to you know, speak to the
Speaker 2: things that matter to me and in the society. And
Speaker 2: the artists that always inspired me the most were those
Speaker 2: kind of artists. And I also, I have always been
Speaker 2: interested in language, even though I started it off with
Speaker 2: the drums and the piano, and I wasn't a vocalist
Speaker 2: till much later, but I was always still very interested
Speaker 2: in language and the music of language and sound, which
Speaker 2: is a strange kind of I guess entry point into
Speaker 2: language because a lot of people don't think about sound
Speaker 2: when they think about speaking, which is which is interesting
Speaker 2: to me, but we just never talk about it. So yeah,
Speaker 2: for me, I just always thought that, you know, kind
Speaker 2: of investigating all types of things through the music of
Speaker 2: language is almost like an entryway into the soul for people.
Speaker 2: And so obviously, you know, one way that I like
Speaker 2: to do that is through writing lyrics and making songs
Speaker 2: with lyrics in them. But the Healing Project for me
Speaker 2: was kind of an investigation into how can I look
Speaker 2: at music through conversation, through the music of just somebody
Speaker 2: talking regular just how they would and what does that
Speaker 2: reveal about their relationships to these very difficult things that
Speaker 2: they've gone through as a result of societal oppression and
Speaker 2: the prison industrial complex and all these things. And I
Speaker 2: was super inspired to do that project by one of
Speaker 2: my mentors, and Adiger Smith, who's a playwright but she
Speaker 2: thinks a lot about the music of language and has
Speaker 2: developed this whole, you know, method that's very famous at
Speaker 2: this point that's around how she does interview based work
Speaker 2: and she thinks a lot about music and that work.
Speaker 2: So when I started to kind of be her mentee,
Speaker 2: she would just talk to me all the time out
Speaker 2: that method, and it's just really inspired me so much.
Speaker 2: So I kind of just decided to try my own
Speaker 2: spin on that with her blessing. And you know, I
Speaker 2: always wanted to make something that was about the subject
Speaker 2: of abolition because I have a lot of close friends
Speaker 2: growing up that have been through the prison system, that
Speaker 2: have dealt with structural violence and whose lives have been
Speaker 2: very affected and kind of traumatized by the violent systems
Speaker 2: that you know, are a part of the United States,
Speaker 2: and so I just really wanted to use the lens
Speaker 2: of music and language to try to reach people who
Speaker 2: maybe don't have you know, family members or friends who
Speaker 2: have been affected in that way, to try to reach
Speaker 2: them and have them understand the depth and complexity of
Speaker 2: that experience, because I think part of what that system
Speaker 2: does is it creates a lot of distance. You know,
Speaker 2: if you observe, you know, things like for instance, in prison,
Speaker 2: is is never in the center of the city. It's
Speaker 2: always in the outskirts or upstate. And that's the reason
Speaker 2: for that is distance. You don't have to see what's
Speaker 2: really you know, what people are really going through, and
Speaker 2: so it's much easier to kind of just like put
Speaker 2: them throw them away to the marginess society and not
Speaker 2: I how to deal with it. And so my hope
Speaker 2: with this project is that through this universal music of
Speaker 2: language that we can kind of capsize that distance.
Speaker 1: Well so beautifully put.
Speaker 3: And I'm a voiceover for my day job, I do
Speaker 3: voice work, and so I'm very interested in what you're
Speaker 3: speaking about. And also I listened to quite a bit
Speaker 3: of the Healing Project and it is epic, And I say,
Speaker 3: you don't box yourself in with just America.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a.
Speaker 3: Message that could resonate globally, really and it's really unique
Speaker 3: and it pulls you in.
Speaker 1: It's not like anything I've ever heard before.
Speaker 2: Thank you. That's a high compliment. I mean, that's some
Speaker 2: thing I also always try to do in my work.
Speaker 2: And you know, with humility understanding that I don't really
Speaker 2: think there's anything all the way one hundred percent original.
Speaker 2: You know, we all pull some so many sources, and
Speaker 2: I think it's important to cite all the sources in
Speaker 2: cite all the influences that create us and create art.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I'm always am striving for
Speaker 2: that that originality or that uniqueness of Okay, this is
Speaker 2: something that I haven't quite heard anything like that, And
Speaker 2: in my jolt you know, the listener in a different
Speaker 2: new way. So yeah, I appreciate that so much. And
Speaker 2: I think you're right also about you know, the global look.
Speaker 2: I mean, all the people that are part of the
Speaker 2: project are based in the US, and so we've only
Speaker 2: really like presented the work here so far. But I
Speaker 2: really do hope that it reaches that global audience because
Speaker 2: I think you're right, these these issues are totally happening
Speaker 2: around the world in a lot of different ways, and
Speaker 2: people are also affected in very universal ways by you know,
Speaker 2: things like grief and loss and you know, depression, anxiety,
Speaker 2: the trauma from you know, violences of many different kinds.
Speaker 2: So I think that even if people haven't been through
Speaker 2: these specific systemic experiences that are a focus of the project,
Speaker 2: I think there's things that they're going to connect to
Speaker 2: and say, wow, I know I've been through this, or
Speaker 2: I know my brother or my you know sister, my
Speaker 2: mom who has been through this. Well.
Speaker 3: You've collaborated with many renowned artists like Herbie Hancock, for example,
Speaker 3: one of my faves. How did that experience shape your
Speaker 3: approach to music and activism combining the two?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Herbie is my hero, you know, He's
Speaker 2: the reason that I started playing piano. You know, I
Speaker 2: was like, I was a drummer, and then I heard
Speaker 2: heard Herbie play on Miles' records. You know, my teacher,
Speaker 2: Geechee Tailor, he gave me all these albums of that
Speaker 2: Miles Quintet and I was just like, oh, this is
Speaker 2: the sounding that I'm looking for. So, you know, he's
Speaker 2: always been my hero. And I met him actually through
Speaker 2: my sister, who's like another just another genius musician.
Speaker 1: And she's she's worked with him family.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, my sister is like the best musician in
Speaker 2: the family, to be honest, She's a genius. So she
Speaker 2: has toured with him for a few years now, and
Speaker 2: so I met him through her and worked on some
Speaker 2: pieces with him. And I think what I just learned
Speaker 2: the most from Herbie is like his boundless curiosity and playfulness,
Speaker 2: like he is even still now, as you know, one
Speaker 2: of the greatest of all time. And also he's you
Speaker 2: know up there in age, but his energy is is
Speaker 2: like twenty times even me when I was in the room,
Speaker 2: because he's always following ideas. He's getting new equipment, he's
Speaker 2: trying out new, new different you know, keyboards, and technologies
Speaker 2: and sounds, and he just always stays curious. He's always
Speaker 2: looking for more ways to be inspired, and you know,
Speaker 2: he's never his attitude is never well, you know, I
Speaker 2: know all that there is no anything like that because
Speaker 2: you can't you can never know as much as there
Speaker 2: is a Nobile music. And so, you know, that was
Speaker 2: just so inspiring to be around, to say, like, this
Speaker 2: is somebody who you know is to me like the
Speaker 2: greatest living pianist or you know, one of the grades
Speaker 2: living pianists, and he's still so curious and still always
Speaker 2: trying to find new ways to play.
Speaker 3: Staying hungry is a good thing. Definitely, definitely, and your
Speaker 3: music helps. I would imagine a lot of people who
Speaker 3: well I'm going to guess this, but I'm sure you
Speaker 3: would agree that we're going through challenging times and needed
Speaker 3: that that inspiration. So it's it's I'm curious how music
Speaker 3: played a role in personal healing for you in your
Speaker 3: journey in life. Was there a specific thing that you realized, Wow,
Speaker 3: music really played this role in me getting healthy?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think what I have learned about
Speaker 2: music is that, in a strange, mysterious way, it tends
Speaker 2: to know things before I can articulate them, and so
Speaker 2: it's almost given me language throughout the years for what
Speaker 2: I've been going through. I don't necessarily think that it
Speaker 2: does the healing for me, and I actually think I've
Speaker 2: learned to make that distinction in an important way because
Speaker 2: as a performer, you know, you give a lot and
Speaker 2: the music that you make is supposed to be a gift.
Speaker 2: It's not for me, it's for the listener. And so
Speaker 2: you know, I think the exchange around that. As a
Speaker 2: young musician, you can believe that, well, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: pouring all of myself into this music, and it is
Speaker 2: a very cathartic process and you learn so much about yourself,
Speaker 2: so you can mistake that for that learning for the
Speaker 2: healing process itself. But what I've learned is that the
Speaker 2: art gives me language, and then I have to go
Speaker 2: out and find the tools that I need to actually
Speaker 2: do the healing, you know, And that's where you know,
Speaker 2: therapy comes in and different forms of healing practice and
Speaker 2: community support, you know, and just like engagement with myself,
Speaker 2: I think that's where the healing for me comes in.
Speaker 2: But the creative practice is a part of that, and
Speaker 2: I think the part that it is is number one,
Speaker 2: just having the freedom of expression, like knowing that at
Speaker 2: any time I have this outlet, which is, you know,
Speaker 2: such a special opportunity to you know, just put down
Speaker 2: and connect to whatever I'm feeling and dealing with and
Speaker 2: give all this kind of dimension to it. And I
Speaker 2: think also, like I said, the other part is that
Speaker 2: if I'm stuck on something, like I know I'm going
Speaker 2: through something but I can't really understand what it is,
Speaker 2: if I will know about it just through making work
Speaker 2: around it, I will understand it. And it's been really
Speaker 2: strange and in a funny way to like go back
Speaker 2: to some of the songs that I've written and be like, wow,
Speaker 2: this song. Knew that I was going through this before
Speaker 2: I could make sense of it, and like the language
Speaker 2: that's in the material it allowed me to get like
Speaker 2: to figure out, oh, this is what I'm you know,
Speaker 2: dealing with. So I think that's something really special. And
Speaker 2: then obviously on the listener side, like you said, hopefully
Speaker 2: the listener can feel reflected in the music, and I've
Speaker 2: certainly experienced that as a listener where a lot of
Speaker 2: music I've I've heard, I'm like, again, it gives voice
Speaker 2: to to what you're going through. So, oh, that's what
Speaker 2: it is, you know.
Speaker 3: So I think that's give me an example of of
Speaker 3: of a song or an artist that you would hear
Speaker 3: that would make you feel.
Speaker 2: That's a really good question. That's a really good question.
Speaker 2: That's a good question.
Speaker 3: Do you put different music on depending on your food
Speaker 3: or something you may be dealing with?
Speaker 1: You have to figure out, Yeah, yeah, I do.
Speaker 2: I mean I think off the top of my head.
Speaker 2: You know, it's hard to remember an exact time because
Speaker 2: I haven't had like an immediate experience of that in
Speaker 2: a little bit. But there's so many different, you know,
Speaker 2: contexts in which I can say that that has happened
Speaker 2: to me. But I probably have to follow with you
Speaker 2: another because I don't have any when that comes to Mindy.
Speaker 1: That's okay, we can we can go back to that one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, but you're you know, your work often combines
Speaker 3: music with other art forms like film and poetry, And
Speaker 3: how do you see these different mediums that you're putting
Speaker 3: together complement each other.
Speaker 2: I think they kind of just go together very naturally.
Speaker 2: For me, Like I already always thought of music as
Speaker 2: film scenes. I didn't do that intentionally, but as I write,
Speaker 2: oh how interesting, particularly with lyrics like I just that's
Speaker 2: I just see it in my head like a song.
Speaker 2: For me, I see it as like a scene, and
Speaker 2: that's how I am able to develop the characters in
Speaker 2: the song and things like that. Even if it's something
Speaker 2: that is based off of something I've been through, it's
Speaker 2: still it is a process of like seeing a scene
Speaker 2: in my head to be able to write the song.
Speaker 2: And so even before I was making movies, you know,
Speaker 2: short films and things like that, I would always see
Speaker 2: the scenes in my head from just writing music, and
Speaker 2: so it was the extension to just actually making films
Speaker 2: was more of a technical one than it was kind
Speaker 2: of a shift in imagination. And that just came number
Speaker 2: one with you know, getting very inspired and trying to
Speaker 2: kind of do a lot of informal study because I
Speaker 2: didn't go to school for that, but I just you know,
Speaker 2: I went to YouTube school like a lot of people,
Speaker 2: and then also just watched a lot of films. And
Speaker 2: then the rest comes through collaboration, which has just been
Speaker 2: the other blessing in my life, which I think is
Speaker 2: the case for all artists, is you know, just finding
Speaker 2: the right collaborators. For me, that was just this kind
Speaker 2: of collective of filmmakers that I was lucky enough to
Speaker 2: be a part of, kind of like building around. And
Speaker 2: Christian Padrone is kind of like my main, my main guy,
Speaker 2: like co director. We make all the films together, but
Speaker 2: there's kind of a loose collective of each other that
Speaker 2: we make things together and inspire each other. We call
Speaker 2: it risk. It's you know, Christian Anyway, Neutron, Cassim Morris
Speaker 2: and On Salvagi to Show See and so you know,
Speaker 2: we're always kind of like bouncing inspiration off each other,
Speaker 2: making things, supporting each other's work. And they're all high
Speaker 2: level filmmakers, and you know, I'm kind of like the
Speaker 2: person coming in from the music side. But I think
Speaker 2: that allows me to see everything in a different you know.
Speaker 2: And so I think collaborati were collaboratively, we're able to
Speaker 2: create things that would you know, are very different than
Speaker 2: the normal perspective and apply I guess I would say
Speaker 2: sonic principles to the visual medium.
Speaker 1: Ooh, I like that.
Speaker 2: So I think that that gives me, I think, a
Speaker 2: different dimension to how I approach the film work that
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 3: Well, it's always exciting when you get to meet and
Speaker 3: talk to someone who's sort of breaking down barriers, or
Speaker 3: maybe not so much barriers, but creating things that haven't
Speaker 3: been created, which is in a world that we live
Speaker 3: in today, it's getting.
Speaker 1: Rarer and rarer.
Speaker 3: I think, although there's so many out there, it's just
Speaker 3: harder to find because there's so many.
Speaker 2: I agree, and not as a I mean, I guess
Speaker 2: it's technically is a critique, but I don't mean it
Speaker 2: in a harsh way. But I just think that there's
Speaker 2: a lot of pressure on artists these days to do
Speaker 2: things that they see working, you know, and so that
Speaker 2: produces a lot of similar work because people are like, oh,
Speaker 2: people get this, and they get it quickly, and you know,
Speaker 2: it's it's it's a populated and hard world inside of
Speaker 2: like the industries of art, and so I think that
Speaker 2: people are incentivized to, yeah, just like make kind of
Speaker 2: carbon copies of what already exists, but maybe with a
Speaker 2: different spin. But I just don't think that that lasts
Speaker 2: the tests of time, you know, And I don't I
Speaker 2: wouldn't say that. I I'm not the judge of whether
Speaker 2: obviously my work will do that, but I will say
Speaker 2: that that is the attempt, you know. Like again, all
Speaker 2: the artists that I admire the most, like, that's what
Speaker 2: their work does, so I have to try.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 3: And do you feel as though by doing something for yourself,
Speaker 3: regardless of that it's different that it's for you, takes
Speaker 3: a little bit of the pressure off for others. In
Speaker 3: other words, you know, you're not making it to be successful,
Speaker 3: You're making it to help.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean my hero is James Baldwins. I learned
Speaker 2: a lot from just reading his work, and he has
Speaker 2: all these wonderful essays about the role and responsibility of
Speaker 2: the artists, and I think he makes it very clear
Speaker 2: that the role and responsibility of the artist is to
Speaker 2: be of service. You know, it's service work, and it's
Speaker 2: spiritual and creative and emotional service work. And so as
Speaker 2: a result, you know, the expectation that you will receive
Speaker 2: the fruits of that service immediately is not That's not
Speaker 2: part of the job description. And obviously, you know, we
Speaker 2: have to understand, just like everybody else, that we have
Speaker 2: to materially be able to engage with life. And so
Speaker 2: you know, artists deserve all the security and the you know,
Speaker 2: a lot there should be a lot that artists have
Speaker 2: from a quality of life perspective that you know, we
Speaker 2: have to really fight very hard to get and that
Speaker 2: people don't really understand like that we you know, don't
Speaker 2: have the we don't have the infrastructures that we deserve
Speaker 2: to have based on the service that we play in society.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, you know, as far as
Speaker 2: what the creative work is supposed to do, I think
Speaker 2: for me it's it's it's a matter of trust, I
Speaker 2: guess in the sense that my hope is if I
Speaker 2: follow that creative process and appear an honest way, and
Speaker 2: I do it without you know, the the ego and
Speaker 2: the interruptions of well, what is going to work and
Speaker 2: what's not going to work, but more just what it
Speaker 2: is supposed to be made, then you know you trust
Speaker 2: that that will carry you to the ears and the
Speaker 2: hearts of the people that need.
Speaker 3: What do you think it is about music that is
Speaker 3: so healing? Is it the words? Is it the the chorus?
Speaker 3: Is it the instruments, vibration? Some people have said, do
Speaker 3: you have a specific idea or thought of what it
Speaker 3: is that is so healing with music?
Speaker 2: That's a really good question, and you know, I feel
Speaker 2: like I always wanted to do more research on that,
Speaker 2: and I'm sure there's people that could speak to like
Speaker 2: the actual physical and scientific and spiritual properties of what
Speaker 2: music does, and like certainly like physically to the body,
Speaker 2: you know, And I think I certainly experienced that with
Speaker 2: live performance. I think that's why I really still believe,
Speaker 2: even in the digital and technological age, and the power
Speaker 2: of live performance, it's not just because of the you know,
Speaker 2: musical you know, and collective energy, which is very important,
Speaker 2: but it's also because of literally like how the sound
Speaker 2: changes the physical space, and how the effects of that
Speaker 2: sound in that physical space, and how it charges their
Speaker 2: bodies and their minds and their spirits. So that really
Speaker 2: means a lot to me, and I think, you know,
Speaker 2: I receive a lot from life science with that exchange.
Speaker 2: But I think in general, I think it's just it
Speaker 2: can do so many things. But I think one big
Speaker 2: part of it emotionally is just how personal it can be.
Speaker 2: I think that's something that with regards to all the
Speaker 2: with regards to all the different artistic disciplines, you know,
Speaker 2: they all do very different important healing work and all
Speaker 2: different types of work, and it's just healing work. But
Speaker 2: I think one thing that's unique is that with the
Speaker 2: other main disciplines, whether it's like you know, film or
Speaker 2: theater or dance, even visual art, there's kind of a
Speaker 2: subject object relationship where you're usually just slightly removed from
Speaker 2: the work and so you are able to still put
Speaker 2: yourself in it, but you're still very conscious that you're
Speaker 2: like placing yourself relationship to an object or a character
Speaker 2: or a story or something like that. Whereas with music,
Speaker 2: you can put on your headphones or even be listening
Speaker 2: to a concert and be with other people and hear
Speaker 2: the right song and literally feel like you are doing it,
Speaker 2: like you're singing it or you're experiencing this this thing,
Speaker 2: and it becomes like it's literally a part of your
Speaker 2: like in your head, in your body. And I think
Speaker 2: that's something very unique to music that it can be
Speaker 2: at once such a like a personal, singular experience and
Speaker 2: also have that still that same collective thing that's happening.
Speaker 2: And I feel like that can be very healing because
Speaker 2: it gives you a very rare chance to like see
Speaker 2: yourself in a new way, or that you see yourself reflected,
Speaker 2: hear yourself reflected in a new way that really does
Speaker 2: feel like you're not stepping outside of yourself but literally
Speaker 2: like just able to be echo. You know, Jack, my
Speaker 2: friend Jack Cobo, who's also was the co producer and
Speaker 2: collaborat Core collaborate on Venus the album, the new album,
Speaker 2: he said something that I think about a lot. He said,
Speaker 2: you know, I asked him, what is the what are
Speaker 2: the properties of echo, like just like physically, you know,
Speaker 2: as a tool, and he said, an echo is an
Speaker 2: imperfect copy. And I was like, Oh, that's great, Like
Speaker 2: that's such a great concept. I feel like that's music
Speaker 2: that is music echoes in us as like an imperfect
Speaker 2: copy of us. If it's hitting the right way, it's like, wow,
Speaker 2: this is me, but just maybe like through the prism
Speaker 2: of this other person. So that's the long answer for it.
Speaker 3: Like an imperfect workshop. No, I think it's beautiful. I
Speaker 3: thought what you said makes a lot of sense. What
Speaker 3: have some of your fans told you about what they
Speaker 3: get out of your music?
Speaker 2: You know, it's very humbling. I think. I think the
Speaker 2: best kind of exchanges that I've gotten are people that
Speaker 2: just feel kind of similar to what we're talking about
Speaker 2: in the last question. They feel reflected, you know, and
Speaker 2: so people saying, you know, oh, with this song, that
Speaker 2: was my experience, and I've never heard it articulate in
Speaker 2: that way. And I think, you know, hopefully it's because
Speaker 2: I think I try to be like very rigorously honest
Speaker 2: in the word and complex, so some songs can, like
Speaker 2: you know, be a little bit complicated, and I think
Speaker 2: important ways, like you know, the sound Grief that I
Speaker 2: have from my old album, which just talks not only
Speaker 2: about the reality of losing somebody, but a lot of
Speaker 2: the complicated feelings around it, like bitter than revenge and
Speaker 2: not understanding how to get over it or get through it,
Speaker 2: like in whatever project of time, be wanting to rant.
Speaker 2: And so I think people who have experienced briefs like
Speaker 2: they appreciate that I'm making an allowance for a minute,
Speaker 2: which we all should, but just besides, society doesn't really
Speaker 2: allow for that. And I think hopefully with the new
Speaker 2: music it does similar things. You know, there's a song
Speaker 2: called Forgive Yourself which ends the album, which is hopefully
Speaker 2: similarly like I think for a lot of people when
Speaker 2: they hear that, they're like, wow, like, I've never allowed
Speaker 2: myself to attain forgiveness around this thing in my life,
Speaker 2: and so those are the things that mean the most
Speaker 2: of me. Is when people are able to engage that way,
Speaker 2: you know, take the music home with them and be like, wow,
Speaker 2: I feel like this is changing my life in this
Speaker 2: fond them right, say, that's a beautiful, humbling experience.
Speaker 1: It's pretty special.
Speaker 3: You've recently received a significant grant and the changes that
Speaker 3: it can make are pretty big.
Speaker 1: What are your hopes for it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, basically, you know, a couple of years ago,
Speaker 2: I transformed the Healing Project into an organization, a full
Speaker 2: fledged organization, and so now you know, what I'm hoping
Speaker 2: that that will be able to do is to really
Speaker 2: be both an artistic organization and a direct service organization,
Speaker 2: kind of like advocating for an abolitionist perspective and art,
Speaker 2: which obviously we're not the only people that do that
Speaker 2: with part of community. But also I think the ways
Speaker 2: that we do it are maybe unique, and that it's
Speaker 2: a very collective experience. So we're building a lot of
Speaker 2: models for collective ownership of art, for collective exchange between
Speaker 2: currently and formally incarcerated artists and you know, artists of
Speaker 2: different experiences around the world who want to speak to
Speaker 2: that experience and collaborate. We're using the art, you know,
Speaker 2: to directly affect policy around the prison industrial complex and
Speaker 2: also to try to actually get people out of prison.
Speaker 2: You know, we've been working for the last couple of
Speaker 2: years on a particular case around Chief from Ours, an
Speaker 2: amazing artists who was falsely accused in Ohio and as
Speaker 2: a depth row and we're you know, working with a
Speaker 2: lot of different amazing artists, from visual artists like Peter
Speaker 2: mccoya and Maryland, you know, to just incredible folks. So,
Speaker 2: you know, my hope with the organization is just that
Speaker 2: it can change you know, people's perceptions around what they
Speaker 2: think the purpose of the prison is and really understanding
Speaker 2: that it is not the way to actually rehabilitate, heal
Speaker 2: whatever you want to say about like changing society or whatever.
Speaker 2: Amuse you have thinking jobs at the prison, and also
Speaker 2: to provide that sense of imagination and possibility around what
Speaker 2: a world that's built around healing would really look like.
Speaker 2: What are those frameworks, what are those ways that we
Speaker 2: treat each other? And also how could that be scaled
Speaker 2: into actual institutions so that we could have a different
Speaker 2: way of being that would actually achieve the aims that
Speaker 2: we hope to be about as a society and as
Speaker 2: a world. So that's the mission of the organization, and
Speaker 2: I think what that also allows me to do is
Speaker 2: that I can you know, I'm the artistic and executive
Speaker 2: director of the Healing Project, and so I'm able to
Speaker 2: lead the organization and kind of determine the vision and
Speaker 2: the possibilities around it, but moves as a collective. And meanwhile,
Speaker 2: I can also operate as an individual artist and put
Speaker 2: out albums like Venus, which are very personal projects which
Speaker 2: kind of have their relationship through my desire to heal
Speaker 2: through all projects, but you know, it's really of that project.
Speaker 2: It's very personal thing too. So it allows me to
Speaker 2: kind of operate in these two interlocking ways but still
Speaker 2: like stay creative and stay flexible, you know, and do
Speaker 2: all these different types of things that I want to do.
Speaker 2: So it's a big blessing, you know, that I really
Speaker 2: don't take for granted, And my hope is just that
Speaker 2: it can inspire and also prof opportunities for a lot
Speaker 2: of different artists that want to speak to these issues.
Speaker 3: Well that's such a beautiful sentiment, and you are I
Speaker 3: don't think this is proper grammar, but you are being
Speaker 3: the change that you want to see. And not only
Speaker 3: are you inspiring people, but you're creating a legacy and
Speaker 3: I think that's pretty darn special. And so more, I
Speaker 3: just want to thank you so much for spending the
Speaker 3: time with us today. Congratulations on the new project. I
Speaker 3: want to get it right. It's called Venus Smiles, not
Speaker 3: in the House of Tears.
Speaker 1: It's phenomenal.
Speaker 3: It is, so you just put it on and it
Speaker 3: will take you on an amazing journey and we're very
Speaker 3: excited for you. Congratulations on everything now and in the future.
Speaker 3: I'm sure we're going to talk again. And thank you
Speaker 3: for being on Music Save Me. It is such a pleasure.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It means
Speaker 2: a lot to me, and you know, music has saved
Speaker 2: me many times. So I believe in the mission and
Speaker 2: grateful to be in conversation. I hope everything is beautiful
Speaker 2: in your world. H