1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:01,360 Speaker 1: Music Saved Me. 2 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 2: How can I look at music through conversation, through the 3 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 2: music of just somebody talking regular and just how they 4 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 2: would and what does that reveal about the relationships to 5 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 2: these very difficult things that they've gone through as a 6 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 2: result of societal oppression and the prison industrial complex and 7 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 2: all these things. 8 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 3: I'm Lynn Hoffman and welcome to the Music Saved Me Podcast, 9 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 3: the show where we dig deep into the impactful stories 10 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 3: about the power of music. Please follow us and share 11 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 3: with your friends if you don't mind, and thank you 12 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 3: for that. On this episode, Emmy Award winning composer, lyricist, vocalist, filmmaker, 13 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 3: social political activist, and scholar who, by the way, is 14 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 3: working on his PhD. Just your typical underachiever, Soamora Pinther 15 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 3: Hughes discusses his new work and his views on the 16 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 3: force of nature as we know as music Sommora. Welcome 17 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 3: to Music Saved Me. It's so nice to have you here. 18 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It's an honor to be on 19 00:00:58,760 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 2: the program. 20 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: It's very fun. 21 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 3: And interestingly enough, my sister or brother program is called 22 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 3: taking a Walk with Buzz Night, which you are doing 23 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 3: while we're talking right now. I'd like to let the 24 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 3: listeners know it's a beautiful day in October. So we 25 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 3: couldn't keep him from just sitting in a studio. You 26 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 3: had to you had to go walk about. 27 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, yeah, you know, this is my mental health practice. 28 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: And it's a good one. 29 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 3: You have such a unique musical background, starting off as 30 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 3: a jazz pianist studying at the renowned Juilliard. Can you 31 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 3: tell us how and when you first became attached to music. 32 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been playing my whole life. I actually started 33 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 2: at age two, and I was in preschool. Wow, and 34 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:47,199 Speaker 2: I had somebody came to a musician named Jacqueline Rago. 35 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 2: She became. She came to preschool and was like going 36 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 2: around to all the people, all the kids, you know, 37 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 2: playing some pieces. And I was just following her around 38 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 2: like the whole school. And so after that day she 39 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 2: went to my parents and was like, your kid wouldn't 40 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 2: leave me alone. So clearly he's into this music thing. 41 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 2: And she was my first teacher. She really, you know, 42 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 2: took me under her wing and kind of just brought 43 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 2: me into the community of the music that she was 44 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: a part of, which was venezuela and traditional music. That's 45 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 2: what I started playing, and then I went to keeping music, 46 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 2: then the jazz, and then I was I was kind 47 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 2: of off and running by then, and I never stopped. 48 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 2: So it's been, you know, the longest relationship I've ever 49 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: had in my life, besides you know, with my parents, 50 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 2: and you know, just something that I don't even really 51 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 2: I've never experienced life without it. 52 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 3: Your project, The Healing Project, explores themes of incarceration and 53 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 3: violence and policing. What was the inspiration that caused you 54 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 3: to want to tackle all of these sort of difficult 55 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 3: issues and subjects true music. 56 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: I always, you know, kind of had a desire to 57 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: use music and art to you know, speak to the 58 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: things that matter to me and in the society. And 59 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 2: the artists that always inspired me the most were those 60 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 2: kind of artists. And I also, I have always been 61 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 2: interested in language, even though I started it off with 62 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 2: the drums and the piano, and I wasn't a vocalist 63 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 2: till much later, but I was always still very interested 64 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 2: in language and the music of language and sound, which 65 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 2: is a strange kind of I guess entry point into 66 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 2: language because a lot of people don't think about sound 67 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: when they think about speaking, which is which is interesting 68 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 2: to me, but we just never talk about it. So yeah, 69 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 2: for me, I just always thought that, you know, kind 70 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 2: of investigating all types of things through the music of 71 00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 2: language is almost like an entryway into the soul for people. 72 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 2: And so obviously, you know, one way that I like 73 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 2: to do that is through writing lyrics and making songs 74 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: with lyrics in them. But the Healing Project for me 75 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: was kind of an investigation into how can I look 76 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 2: at music through conversation, through the music of just somebody 77 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 2: talking regular just how they would and what does that 78 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 2: reveal about their relationships to these very difficult things that 79 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 2: they've gone through as a result of societal oppression and 80 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 2: the prison industrial complex and all these things. And I 81 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 2: was super inspired to do that project by one of 82 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: my mentors, and Adiger Smith, who's a playwright but she 83 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 2: thinks a lot about the music of language and has 84 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 2: developed this whole, you know, method that's very famous at 85 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 2: this point that's around how she does interview based work 86 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: and she thinks a lot about music and that work. 87 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 2: So when I started to kind of be her mentee, 88 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 2: she would just talk to me all the time out 89 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 2: that method, and it's just really inspired me so much. 90 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 2: So I kind of just decided to try my own 91 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 2: spin on that with her blessing. And you know, I 92 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 2: always wanted to make something that was about the subject 93 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 2: of abolition because I have a lot of close friends 94 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 2: growing up that have been through the prison system, that 95 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 2: have dealt with structural violence and whose lives have been 96 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 2: very affected and kind of traumatized by the violent systems 97 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 2: that you know, are a part of the United States, 98 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 2: and so I just really wanted to use the lens 99 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 2: of music and language to try to reach people who 100 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 2: maybe don't have you know, family members or friends who 101 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: have been affected in that way, to try to reach 102 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 2: them and have them understand the depth and complexity of 103 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 2: that experience, because I think part of what that system 104 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 2: does is it creates a lot of distance. You know, 105 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 2: if you observe, you know, things like for instance, in prison, 106 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 2: is is never in the center of the city. It's 107 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 2: always in the outskirts or upstate. And that's the reason 108 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: for that is distance. You don't have to see what's 109 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 2: really you know, what people are really going through, and 110 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: so it's much easier to kind of just like put 111 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 2: them throw them away to the marginess society and not 112 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 2: I how to deal with it. And so my hope 113 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 2: with this project is that through this universal music of 114 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 2: language that we can kind of capsize that distance. 115 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: Well so beautifully put. 116 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 3: And I'm a voiceover for my day job, I do 117 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 3: voice work, and so I'm very interested in what you're 118 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 3: speaking about. And also I listened to quite a bit 119 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 3: of the Healing Project and it is epic, And I say, 120 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 3: you don't box yourself in with just America. 121 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a. 122 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 3: Message that could resonate globally, really and it's really unique 123 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 3: and it pulls you in. 124 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: It's not like anything I've ever heard before. 125 00:06:57,839 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: Thank you. That's a high compliment. I mean, that's some 126 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 2: thing I also always try to do in my work. 127 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 2: And you know, with humility understanding that I don't really 128 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 2: think there's anything all the way one hundred percent original. 129 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: You know, we all pull some so many sources, and 130 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 2: I think it's important to cite all the sources in 131 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 2: cite all the influences that create us and create art. 132 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 2: But at the same time, I'm always am striving for 133 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 2: that that originality or that uniqueness of Okay, this is 134 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 2: something that I haven't quite heard anything like that, And 135 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 2: in my jolt you know, the listener in a different 136 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 2: new way. So yeah, I appreciate that so much. And 137 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 2: I think you're right also about you know, the global look. 138 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: I mean, all the people that are part of the 139 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 2: project are based in the US, and so we've only 140 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 2: really like presented the work here so far. But I 141 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 2: really do hope that it reaches that global audience because 142 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: I think you're right, these these issues are totally happening 143 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 2: around the world in a lot of different ways, and 144 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 2: people are also affected in very universal ways by you know, 145 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 2: things like grief and loss and you know, depression, anxiety, 146 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: the trauma from you know, violences of many different kinds. 147 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 2: So I think that even if people haven't been through 148 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: these specific systemic experiences that are a focus of the project, 149 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 2: I think there's things that they're going to connect to 150 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 2: and say, wow, I know I've been through this, or 151 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: I know my brother or my you know sister, my 152 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 2: mom who has been through this. Well. 153 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 3: You've collaborated with many renowned artists like Herbie Hancock, for example, 154 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 3: one of my faves. How did that experience shape your 155 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 3: approach to music and activism combining the two? 156 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Herbie is my hero, you know, He's 157 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 2: the reason that I started playing piano. You know, I 158 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 2: was like, I was a drummer, and then I heard 159 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 2: heard Herbie play on Miles' records. You know, my teacher, 160 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 2: Geechee Tailor, he gave me all these albums of that 161 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 2: Miles Quintet and I was just like, oh, this is 162 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: the sounding that I'm looking for. So, you know, he's 163 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: always been my hero. And I met him actually through 164 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 2: my sister, who's like another just another genius musician. 165 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: And she's she's worked with him family. 166 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, my sister is like the best musician in 167 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 2: the family, to be honest, She's a genius. So she 168 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 2: has toured with him for a few years now, and 169 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,839 Speaker 2: so I met him through her and worked on some 170 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 2: pieces with him. And I think what I just learned 171 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 2: the most from Herbie is like his boundless curiosity and playfulness, 172 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: like he is even still now, as you know, one 173 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 2: of the greatest of all time. And also he's you 174 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 2: know up there in age, but his energy is is 175 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 2: like twenty times even me when I was in the room, 176 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: because he's always following ideas. He's getting new equipment, he's 177 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 2: trying out new, new different you know, keyboards, and technologies 178 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 2: and sounds, and he just always stays curious. He's always 179 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 2: looking for more ways to be inspired, and you know, 180 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: he's never his attitude is never well, you know, I 181 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 2: know all that there is no anything like that because 182 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 2: you can't you can never know as much as there 183 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 2: is a Nobile music. And so, you know, that was 184 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 2: just so inspiring to be around, to say, like, this 185 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 2: is somebody who you know is to me like the 186 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 2: greatest living pianist or you know, one of the grades 187 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 2: living pianists, and he's still so curious and still always 188 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 2: trying to find new ways to play. 189 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 3: Staying hungry is a good thing. Definitely, definitely, and your 190 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 3: music helps. I would imagine a lot of people who 191 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 3: well I'm going to guess this, but I'm sure you 192 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 3: would agree that we're going through challenging times and needed 193 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 3: that that inspiration. So it's it's I'm curious how music 194 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 3: played a role in personal healing for you in your 195 00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 3: journey in life. Was there a specific thing that you realized, Wow, 196 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:05,959 Speaker 3: music really played this role in me getting healthy? 197 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think what I have learned about 198 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 2: music is that, in a strange, mysterious way, it tends 199 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 2: to know things before I can articulate them, and so 200 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 2: it's almost given me language throughout the years for what 201 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 2: I've been going through. I don't necessarily think that it 202 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 2: does the healing for me, and I actually think I've 203 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 2: learned to make that distinction in an important way because 204 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 2: as a performer, you know, you give a lot and 205 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 2: the music that you make is supposed to be a gift. 206 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: It's not for me, it's for the listener. And so 207 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 2: you know, I think the exchange around that. As a 208 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 2: young musician, you can believe that, well, you know, I'm 209 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: pouring all of myself into this music, and it is 210 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 2: a very cathartic process and you learn so much about yourself, 211 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 2: so you can mistake that for that learning for the 212 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 2: healing process itself. But what I've learned is that the 213 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 2: art gives me language, and then I have to go 214 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 2: out and find the tools that I need to actually 215 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 2: do the healing, you know, And that's where you know, 216 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 2: therapy comes in and different forms of healing practice and 217 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 2: community support, you know, and just like engagement with myself, 218 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 2: I think that's where the healing for me comes in. 219 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 2: But the creative practice is a part of that, and 220 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 2: I think the part that it is is number one, 221 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,079 Speaker 2: just having the freedom of expression, like knowing that at 222 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: any time I have this outlet, which is, you know, 223 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 2: such a special opportunity to you know, just put down 224 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 2: and connect to whatever I'm feeling and dealing with and 225 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: give all this kind of dimension to it. And I 226 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 2: think also, like I said, the other part is that 227 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 2: if I'm stuck on something, like I know I'm going 228 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 2: through something but I can't really understand what it is, 229 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 2: if I will know about it just through making work 230 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: around it, I will understand it. And it's been really 231 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 2: strange and in a funny way to like go back 232 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 2: to some of the songs that I've written and be like, wow, 233 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 2: this song. Knew that I was going through this before 234 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 2: I could make sense of it, and like the language 235 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 2: that's in the material it allowed me to get like 236 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 2: to figure out, oh, this is what I'm you know, 237 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 2: dealing with. So I think that's something really special. And 238 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 2: then obviously on the listener side, like you said, hopefully 239 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 2: the listener can feel reflected in the music, and I've 240 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 2: certainly experienced that as a listener where a lot of 241 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 2: music I've I've heard, I'm like, again, it gives voice 242 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 2: to to what you're going through. So, oh, that's what 243 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 2: it is, you know. 244 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 3: So I think that's give me an example of of 245 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 3: of a song or an artist that you would hear 246 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 3: that would make you feel. 247 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 2: That's a really good question. That's a really good question. 248 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 2: That's a good question. 249 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 3: Do you put different music on depending on your food 250 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 3: or something you may be dealing with? 251 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: You have to figure out, Yeah, yeah, I do. 252 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 2: I mean I think off the top of my head. 253 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 2: You know, it's hard to remember an exact time because 254 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 2: I haven't had like an immediate experience of that in 255 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 2: a little bit. But there's so many different, you know, 256 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 2: contexts in which I can say that that has happened 257 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 2: to me. But I probably have to follow with you 258 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,239 Speaker 2: another because I don't have any when that comes to Mindy. 259 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: That's okay, we can we can go back to that one. 260 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, but you're you know, your work often combines 261 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 3: music with other art forms like film and poetry, And 262 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 3: how do you see these different mediums that you're putting 263 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 3: together complement each other. 264 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 2: I think they kind of just go together very naturally. 265 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 2: For me, Like I already always thought of music as 266 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 2: film scenes. I didn't do that intentionally, but as I write, 267 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 2: oh how interesting, particularly with lyrics like I just that's 268 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 2: I just see it in my head like a song. 269 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 2: For me, I see it as like a scene, and 270 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 2: that's how I am able to develop the characters in 271 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 2: the song and things like that. Even if it's something 272 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 2: that is based off of something I've been through, it's 273 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 2: still it is a process of like seeing a scene 274 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 2: in my head to be able to write the song. 275 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 2: And so even before I was making movies, you know, 276 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: short films and things like that, I would always see 277 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 2: the scenes in my head from just writing music, and 278 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 2: so it was the extension to just actually making films 279 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 2: was more of a technical one than it was kind 280 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: of a shift in imagination. And that just came number 281 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: one with you know, getting very inspired and trying to 282 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 2: kind of do a lot of informal study because I 283 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 2: didn't go to school for that, but I just you know, 284 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 2: I went to YouTube school like a lot of people, 285 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 2: and then also just watched a lot of films. And 286 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 2: then the rest comes through collaboration, which has just been 287 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 2: the other blessing in my life, which I think is 288 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 2: the case for all artists, is you know, just finding 289 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 2: the right collaborators. For me, that was just this kind 290 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 2: of collective of filmmakers that I was lucky enough to 291 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 2: be a part of, kind of like building around. And 292 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: Christian Padrone is kind of like my main, my main guy, 293 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: like co director. We make all the films together, but 294 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 2: there's kind of a loose collective of each other that 295 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 2: we make things together and inspire each other. We call 296 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 2: it risk. It's you know, Christian Anyway, Neutron, Cassim Morris 297 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 2: and On Salvagi to Show See and so you know, 298 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 2: we're always kind of like bouncing inspiration off each other, 299 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 2: making things, supporting each other's work. And they're all high 300 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 2: level filmmakers, and you know, I'm kind of like the 301 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 2: person coming in from the music side. But I think 302 00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 2: that allows me to see everything in a different you know. 303 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 2: And so I think collaborati were collaboratively, we're able to 304 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 2: create things that would you know, are very different than 305 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:14,360 Speaker 2: the normal perspective and apply I guess I would say 306 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 2: sonic principles to the visual medium. 307 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 1: Ooh, I like that. 308 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 2: So I think that that gives me, I think, a 309 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 2: different dimension to how I approach the film work that 310 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 2: I think. 311 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,239 Speaker 3: Well, it's always exciting when you get to meet and 312 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 3: talk to someone who's sort of breaking down barriers, or 313 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 3: maybe not so much barriers, but creating things that haven't 314 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,479 Speaker 3: been created, which is in a world that we live 315 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 3: in today, it's getting. 316 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: Rarer and rarer. 317 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 3: I think, although there's so many out there, it's just 318 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 3: harder to find because there's so many. 319 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 2: I agree, and not as a I mean, I guess 320 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 2: it's technically is a critique, but I don't mean it 321 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 2: in a harsh way. But I just think that there's 322 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 2: a lot of pressure on artists these days to do 323 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 2: things that they see working, you know, and so that 324 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 2: produces a lot of similar work because people are like, oh, 325 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 2: people get this, and they get it quickly, and you know, 326 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 2: it's it's it's a populated and hard world inside of 327 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 2: like the industries of art, and so I think that 328 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: people are incentivized to, yeah, just like make kind of 329 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 2: carbon copies of what already exists, but maybe with a 330 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 2: different spin. But I just don't think that that lasts 331 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 2: the tests of time, you know, And I don't I 332 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 2: wouldn't say that. I I'm not the judge of whether 333 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 2: obviously my work will do that, but I will say 334 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 2: that that is the attempt, you know. Like again, all 335 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 2: the artists that I admire the most, like, that's what 336 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 2: their work does, so I have to try. 337 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: I love that. 338 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 3: And do you feel as though by doing something for yourself, 339 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 3: regardless of that it's different that it's for you, takes 340 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 3: a little bit of the pressure off for others. In 341 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 3: other words, you know, you're not making it to be successful, 342 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 3: You're making it to help. 343 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean my hero is James Baldwins. I learned 344 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 2: a lot from just reading his work, and he has 345 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 2: all these wonderful essays about the role and responsibility of 346 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 2: the artists, and I think he makes it very clear 347 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 2: that the role and responsibility of the artist is to 348 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 2: be of service. You know, it's service work, and it's 349 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 2: spiritual and creative and emotional service work. And so as 350 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: a result, you know, the expectation that you will receive 351 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 2: the fruits of that service immediately is not That's not 352 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 2: part of the job description. And obviously, you know, we 353 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 2: have to understand, just like everybody else, that we have 354 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 2: to materially be able to engage with life. And so 355 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 2: you know, artists deserve all the security and the you know, 356 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 2: a lot there should be a lot that artists have 357 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 2: from a quality of life perspective that you know, we 358 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 2: have to really fight very hard to get and that 359 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 2: people don't really understand like that we you know, don't 360 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 2: have the we don't have the infrastructures that we deserve 361 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 2: to have based on the service that we play in society. 362 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 2: But at the same time, you know, as far as 363 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 2: what the creative work is supposed to do, I think 364 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 2: for me it's it's it's a matter of trust, I 365 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 2: guess in the sense that my hope is if I 366 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 2: follow that creative process and appear an honest way, and 367 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 2: I do it without you know, the the ego and 368 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 2: the interruptions of well, what is going to work and 369 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 2: what's not going to work, but more just what it 370 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 2: is supposed to be made, then you know you trust 371 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 2: that that will carry you to the ears and the 372 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 2: hearts of the people that need. 373 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 3: What do you think it is about music that is 374 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:06,959 Speaker 3: so healing? Is it the words? Is it the the chorus? 375 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 3: Is it the instruments, vibration? Some people have said, do 376 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 3: you have a specific idea or thought of what it 377 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 3: is that is so healing with music? 378 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 2: That's a really good question, and you know, I feel 379 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: like I always wanted to do more research on that, 380 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 2: and I'm sure there's people that could speak to like 381 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 2: the actual physical and scientific and spiritual properties of what 382 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 2: music does, and like certainly like physically to the body, 383 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 2: you know, And I think I certainly experienced that with 384 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 2: live performance. I think that's why I really still believe, 385 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 2: even in the digital and technological age, and the power 386 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 2: of live performance, it's not just because of the you know, 387 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 2: musical you know, and collective energy, which is very important, 388 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 2: but it's also because of literally like how the sound 389 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 2: changes the physical space, and how the effects of that 390 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 2: sound in that physical space, and how it charges their 391 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 2: bodies and their minds and their spirits. So that really 392 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 2: means a lot to me, and I think, you know, 393 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: I receive a lot from life science with that exchange. 394 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 2: But I think in general, I think it's just it 395 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 2: can do so many things. But I think one big 396 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 2: part of it emotionally is just how personal it can be. 397 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 2: I think that's something that with regards to all the 398 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 2: with regards to all the different artistic disciplines, you know, 399 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 2: they all do very different important healing work and all 400 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 2: different types of work, and it's just healing work. But 401 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 2: I think one thing that's unique is that with the 402 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 2: other main disciplines, whether it's like you know, film or 403 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 2: theater or dance, even visual art, there's kind of a 404 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 2: subject object relationship where you're usually just slightly removed from 405 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 2: the work and so you are able to still put 406 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 2: yourself in it, but you're still very conscious that you're 407 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 2: like placing yourself relationship to an object or a character 408 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 2: or a story or something like that. Whereas with music, 409 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 2: you can put on your headphones or even be listening 410 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 2: to a concert and be with other people and hear 411 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 2: the right song and literally feel like you are doing it, 412 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 2: like you're singing it or you're experiencing this this thing, 413 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 2: and it becomes like it's literally a part of your 414 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 2: like in your head, in your body. And I think 415 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 2: that's something very unique to music that it can be 416 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 2: at once such a like a personal, singular experience and 417 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 2: also have that still that same collective thing that's happening. 418 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 2: And I feel like that can be very healing because 419 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 2: it gives you a very rare chance to like see 420 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 2: yourself in a new way, or that you see yourself reflected, 421 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 2: hear yourself reflected in a new way that really does 422 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 2: feel like you're not stepping outside of yourself but literally 423 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 2: like just able to be echo. You know, Jack, my 424 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 2: friend Jack Cobo, who's also was the co producer and 425 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 2: collaborat Core collaborate on Venus the album, the new album, 426 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 2: he said something that I think about a lot. He said, 427 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,239 Speaker 2: you know, I asked him, what is the what are 428 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 2: the properties of echo, like just like physically, you know, 429 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 2: as a tool, and he said, an echo is an 430 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 2: imperfect copy. And I was like, Oh, that's great, Like 431 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 2: that's such a great concept. I feel like that's music 432 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 2: that is music echoes in us as like an imperfect 433 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 2: copy of us. If it's hitting the right way, it's like, wow, 434 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: this is me, but just maybe like through the prism 435 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 2: of this other person. So that's the long answer for it. 436 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 3: Like an imperfect workshop. No, I think it's beautiful. I 437 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 3: thought what you said makes a lot of sense. What 438 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 3: have some of your fans told you about what they 439 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 3: get out of your music? 440 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,360 Speaker 2: You know, it's very humbling. I think. I think the 441 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 2: best kind of exchanges that I've gotten are people that 442 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 2: just feel kind of similar to what we're talking about 443 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 2: in the last question. They feel reflected, you know, and 444 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 2: so people saying, you know, oh, with this song, that 445 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 2: was my experience, and I've never heard it articulate in 446 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 2: that way. And I think, you know, hopefully it's because 447 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 2: I think I try to be like very rigorously honest 448 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 2: in the word and complex, so some songs can, like 449 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 2: you know, be a little bit complicated, and I think 450 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 2: important ways, like you know, the sound Grief that I 451 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 2: have from my old album, which just talks not only 452 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 2: about the reality of losing somebody, but a lot of 453 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 2: the complicated feelings around it, like bitter than revenge and 454 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,239 Speaker 2: not understanding how to get over it or get through it, 455 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 2: like in whatever project of time, be wanting to rant. 456 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 2: And so I think people who have experienced briefs like 457 00:25:54,040 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 2: they appreciate that I'm making an allowance for a minute, 458 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 2: which we all should, but just besides, society doesn't really 459 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 2: allow for that. And I think hopefully with the new 460 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 2: music it does similar things. You know, there's a song 461 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 2: called Forgive Yourself which ends the album, which is hopefully 462 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 2: similarly like I think for a lot of people when 463 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 2: they hear that, they're like, wow, like, I've never allowed 464 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 2: myself to attain forgiveness around this thing in my life, 465 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 2: and so those are the things that mean the most 466 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 2: of me. Is when people are able to engage that way, 467 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 2: you know, take the music home with them and be like, wow, 468 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 2: I feel like this is changing my life in this 469 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 2: fond them right, say, that's a beautiful, humbling experience. 470 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: It's pretty special. 471 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 3: You've recently received a significant grant and the changes that 472 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 3: it can make are pretty big. 473 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: What are your hopes for it? 474 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, basically, you know, a couple of years ago, 475 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 2: I transformed the Healing Project into an organization, a full 476 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,120 Speaker 2: fledged organization, and so now you know, what I'm hoping 477 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 2: that that will be able to do is to really 478 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 2: be both an artistic organization and a direct service organization, 479 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 2: kind of like advocating for an abolitionist perspective and art, 480 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 2: which obviously we're not the only people that do that 481 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 2: with part of community. But also I think the ways 482 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 2: that we do it are maybe unique, and that it's 483 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 2: a very collective experience. So we're building a lot of 484 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 2: models for collective ownership of art, for collective exchange between 485 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 2: currently and formally incarcerated artists and you know, artists of 486 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 2: different experiences around the world who want to speak to 487 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 2: that experience and collaborate. We're using the art, you know, 488 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 2: to directly affect policy around the prison industrial complex and 489 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 2: also to try to actually get people out of prison. 490 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 2: You know, we've been working for the last couple of 491 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 2: years on a particular case around Chief from Ours, an 492 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 2: amazing artists who was falsely accused in Ohio and as 493 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: a depth row and we're you know, working with a 494 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 2: lot of different amazing artists, from visual artists like Peter 495 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 2: mccoya and Maryland, you know, to just incredible folks. So, 496 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,640 Speaker 2: you know, my hope with the organization is just that 497 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 2: it can change you know, people's perceptions around what they 498 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 2: think the purpose of the prison is and really understanding 499 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 2: that it is not the way to actually rehabilitate, heal 500 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 2: whatever you want to say about like changing society or whatever. 501 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: Amuse you have thinking jobs at the prison, and also 502 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 2: to provide that sense of imagination and possibility around what 503 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 2: a world that's built around healing would really look like. 504 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 2: What are those frameworks, what are those ways that we 505 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 2: treat each other? And also how could that be scaled 506 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 2: into actual institutions so that we could have a different 507 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 2: way of being that would actually achieve the aims that 508 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 2: we hope to be about as a society and as 509 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 2: a world. So that's the mission of the organization, and 510 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 2: I think what that also allows me to do is 511 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 2: that I can you know, I'm the artistic and executive 512 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 2: director of the Healing Project, and so I'm able to 513 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 2: lead the organization and kind of determine the vision and 514 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 2: the possibilities around it, but moves as a collective. And meanwhile, 515 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 2: I can also operate as an individual artist and put 516 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 2: out albums like Venus, which are very personal projects which 517 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 2: kind of have their relationship through my desire to heal 518 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 2: through all projects, but you know, it's really of that project. 519 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 2: It's very personal thing too. So it allows me to 520 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 2: kind of operate in these two interlocking ways but still 521 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 2: like stay creative and stay flexible, you know, and do 522 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 2: all these different types of things that I want to do. 523 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 2: So it's a big blessing, you know, that I really 524 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 2: don't take for granted, And my hope is just that 525 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 2: it can inspire and also prof opportunities for a lot 526 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 2: of different artists that want to speak to these issues. 527 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 3: Well that's such a beautiful sentiment, and you are I 528 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 3: don't think this is proper grammar, but you are being 529 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 3: the change that you want to see. And not only 530 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 3: are you inspiring people, but you're creating a legacy and 531 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 3: I think that's pretty darn special. And so more, I 532 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 3: just want to thank you so much for spending the 533 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 3: time with us today. Congratulations on the new project. I 534 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 3: want to get it right. It's called Venus Smiles, not 535 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 3: in the House of Tears. 536 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: It's phenomenal. 537 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 3: It is, so you just put it on and it 538 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 3: will take you on an amazing journey and we're very 539 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 3: excited for you. Congratulations on everything now and in the future. 540 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 3: I'm sure we're going to talk again. And thank you 541 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 3: for being on Music Save Me. It is such a pleasure. 542 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It means 543 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 2: a lot to me, and you know, music has saved 544 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 2: me many times. So I believe in the mission and 545 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 2: grateful to be in conversation. I hope everything is beautiful 546 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 2: in your world. H