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Speaker 1: Ron Dermer is Israeli Minister of Strategic Affairs, but far

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Speaker 1: more he was Ambassador of Israel to the United States

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Speaker 1: for seven years. His extended period in Washington, who work

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Speaker 1: at Wharton among others, is noted. And to have Ambassador

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Speaker 1: Dermer with us John, with his experience across all of

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Speaker 1: a decade, is important.

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Speaker 2: Minister, thank you for being with us this morning. And

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Speaker 2: I think first and foremost we have to extend on

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Speaker 2: deepest sympathies to you and the people of Israel. Our

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Speaker 2: first thoughts going to the hostages, the scores of hostages

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Speaker 2: that were taken over the weekend. And as you know,

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Speaker 2: there are some reports at the moment in the media

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Speaker 2: that we'd love to get an on the record response

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Speaker 2: from you on this from Reuter's a little bit early

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Speaker 2: this morning that Katari mediators of how talks with Hamas

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Speaker 2: officials to try to negotiate the release of Israeli women

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Speaker 2: and children hold in Gaza. Minister other active talks led

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Speaker 2: by Katar to release hostages.

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Speaker 3: Well, what I guess you.

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Speaker 4: Just read to me is that Kataris were talking to

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Speaker 4: Hamas about it. Israel has not been negotiating with anybody.

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Speaker 2: Has Katar spoken to you about the release of hostages

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Speaker 2: and their role they might play as a mediator.

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Speaker 4: As I said, what the Katari is speaking to Hamas

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Speaker 4: and talking about different things. Look, people are outraged by

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Speaker 4: what happened. I'm sure your outrage. I appreciate the condolences.

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Speaker 4: I know their heartfelt, and they're deeply appreciated. We haven't

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Speaker 4: seen something like this, even in the Middle East, which

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Speaker 4: as you know, has a lot of brutality and savagery,

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Speaker 4: and it we haven't seen savagery like this since isis

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Speaker 4: when you have killers, scores of hundreds, really of terrorists

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Speaker 4: who invaded Israel on Saturday morning on trucks with AK

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Speaker 4: forty sevens and just mowed down people who were at

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Speaker 4: a dance festival, went into people's homes, killed whole families,

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Speaker 4: kidnapped children, women, elderly. This thing is sick and it's savage,

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Speaker 4: and you really have a battle between the forces of

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Speaker 4: civilization on the one side and the forces of barbarism,

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Speaker 4: and civilization is going to have to win. And that's

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Speaker 4: exactly what we're going to do in the days ahead.

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Speaker 4: And as you heard from Secretary Blinken, it may take

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Speaker 4: some time, but We're going to exact such a high

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Speaker 4: price that not only will Hamas never consider doing this again,

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Speaker 4: I think none of Israel's enemies are going to ever

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Speaker 4: think about doing something like this again, you know. And

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Speaker 4: the feeling of euphoria on the other side israelis those

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Speaker 4: of a certain age remember nineteen seventy three when a

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Speaker 4: surprise attack was launched against us on.

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Speaker 3: Two different fronts.

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Speaker 4: There was euphoria then for a few days, but then

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Speaker 4: Israel turned the tide and the end of the war

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Speaker 4: looked very different than the beginning of the war.

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Speaker 3: And this is exactly what's going.

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Speaker 2: To happen now, Minister Basin One. You've just told us.

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Speaker 2: Can we just assume then that a full ground invasion

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Speaker 2: is inevitable.

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Speaker 4: We're going to do whatever we have to do to

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Speaker 4: send a lesson that they're going to understand for many,

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Speaker 4: many decades, not just Comas, not just the other terror

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Speaker 4: organizations in Gaza, but all the terror organizations and all

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Speaker 4: the enemies of Israel and Iran is the biggest enemy

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Speaker 4: of all, and they're pulling the strings behind the scenes,

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Speaker 4: giving money, giving weapons, having meetings to try to coordinate

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Speaker 4: attax in Israel and as I speak to you. Iran

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Speaker 4: is trying to push other people into the theater of war.

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Speaker 4: We're going to have to send a message to everybody

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Speaker 4: because Israel, you know, as you know, we're a tiny country.

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Speaker 4: Or about the size of New Jersey, America is about

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Speaker 4: forty times the population that we have, which goes to

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Speaker 4: show you how heinous the attack was yesterday. Because when

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Speaker 4: you have maybe one thousand people in Israel who were

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Speaker 4: killed on a single day and your population is forty

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Speaker 4: times the size, it's around forty thousand Americans, that's more

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Speaker 4: than ten nine to eleven. So you can imagine the

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Speaker 4: sense of discuss that we have. We have to send

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Speaker 4: a message to all of Israel's enemies because we're a

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Speaker 4: strong country, but we're tiny, and we can go from

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Speaker 4: strength to vulnerability. I think people are going to see

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Speaker 4: the strength of Israel, the might of Israel, and I

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Speaker 4: hope that the wal to Wall support that we appreciate

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Speaker 4: that we have today from President Biden, the support on

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Speaker 4: both sides of the island Washington. I hope in the

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Speaker 4: days ahead that that support continues when Israel has to

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Speaker 4: do what it has to do in order to exact

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Speaker 4: such a heavy price from this terear organization that not

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Speaker 4: only do they not threaten us, that they don't threaten

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Speaker 4: any civilized country around the world. Believe me, this will

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Speaker 4: inspire terrorists the world over, just like you had the

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Speaker 4: Isis caliphate that started to do inspiring people all around

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Speaker 4: the globe. The world came together and understood they have

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Speaker 4: to crush that caliphate. We have a force like that

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Speaker 4: right in our backyard, not thousands of miles away, but

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Speaker 4: right in our backyard, a few meters over the borders,

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Speaker 4: and we're going to have to crush both their capability

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Speaker 4: and also their spirit.

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Speaker 3: They will rule the day two days ago. We're going

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Speaker 3: to remember that day. Israel will always.

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Speaker 4: Remember that day, but all the terror organizations around us

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Speaker 4: are going to remember this period for a very long time.

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Speaker 4: And the critical miscalculation de Chamas may thinking that it

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Speaker 4: was going.

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Speaker 3: To be business as usual in Israel, Believe me, it

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Speaker 3: is not.

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Speaker 4: The people are outraged and they have a woken not

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Speaker 4: a sleeping giant, but a sleeping maccabee, and they're going

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Speaker 4: to see it in the days ahead.

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Speaker 2: Minister, you mentioned Iran. Have you seen personally or are

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Speaker 2: you aware of any evidence that Iran was directly responsible

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Speaker 2: and help coordinate these attacks over the weekend.

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Speaker 3: Well, let me tell you what we do know for sure.

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Speaker 4: But we know for sure that Iran provides ninety the

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Speaker 4: last numbers I saw, ninety three percent of the military

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Speaker 4: budget of Hamas is provided for by Iran. They are

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Speaker 4: trying and have worked to put weapons not in justin

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Speaker 4: to Gaza, but also in Judas, Samaria, the West Bank.

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Speaker 4: They also support Hezbollah's you know, on our northern border.

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Speaker 4: We know that as a fact. We know that Iran

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Speaker 4: has coordinated meetings with all of its terrorist proxies in

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Speaker 4: the region, Hamas and Gaza and another terror organization Palacity

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Speaker 4: in Islami Jihad in Gaza and Hezbala, almost to kind

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Speaker 4: of joint operations, I don't want to say joint operation center,

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Speaker 4: but coordinated meetings. It was one question that I'm sure

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Speaker 4: you're interested in. Did they know about this beforehand? Initially

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Speaker 4: we didn't think that they did. Now there is some

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Speaker 4: evidence that they might have known about it, or we

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Speaker 4: are working to verify that evidence. That's why maybe there's

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Speaker 4: some conflicting reports in the press that we don't exactly know.

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Speaker 4: But now that we're looking back and we're looking at

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Speaker 4: all of our intel and seeing exactly what the situation is.

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Speaker 4: It's still not clear to us, but they might have

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Speaker 4: done it.

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Speaker 3: But I have to tell you they are.

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Speaker 4: Working right now to bring more and more terror groups.

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Speaker 3: Into this fight. So everyone has to know it.

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Speaker 4: And it's important not just I think, to stand unequivocally

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Speaker 4: with Israel against AAMAS, to call for freeing the hostages,

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Speaker 4: but also to stand unequivocally against Iran.

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Speaker 3: You know there's going to be.

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Speaker 4: The UN Security Council can tomorrow, Europe, France, Britain, Germany,

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Speaker 4: they can work to snap bang the UN sanctions, the

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Speaker 4: Security Council sanctions against Iran. You have to enforce oil

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Speaker 4: sanctions against Iran. They're exporting a lot of oil, They're

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Speaker 4: getting a lot of money, tens of billions of dollars.

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Speaker 4: It's time that the world unites against Iran because what

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Speaker 4: you're seeing today is a tentacle of an Iranian octopus,

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Speaker 4: and we have to not only cut off the tentacle,

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Speaker 4: we have to deal with the regime that is sending them.

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Speaker 4: And I hope that the world will stand with Israel,

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Speaker 4: as I said in the days and weeks ahead, to

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Speaker 4: reverse this and turn it into a victory against terrorism

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Speaker 4: and Barbers.

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Speaker 2: Minister, we have some news to work through on our side,

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Speaker 2: and I'd love to continue this conversation with you. At

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Speaker 2: the same time, according to the CBS White House Report

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Speaker 2: or at least nine Americans were killed in Israel. As

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you know, this goes beyond the people of Israel.

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Speaker 2: The whole world is looking at this moment. Just on Iran.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned that you may have some evidence that implicates

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Speaker 2: Iran directly for the operations that took place over the weekend.

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Speaker 2: Could you share with us the nature of that evidence.

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Speaker 4: Unfortunately I can't. If I could, I would, but I can't,

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Speaker 4: and we're going to have to look through it now.

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Speaker 4: Our working assumption is that they may have. Our working

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Speaker 4: assumption a couple of days ago was that they hadn't

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Speaker 4: known about it directly. Now it is unclear and we'll

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Speaker 4: have to wait to verify it. And you know, when

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Speaker 4: we make an official statement. We'll make an official statement,

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Speaker 4: but we have to work some work through that right now,

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Speaker 4: because I want to make sure that when I say it,

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Speaker 4: we know with one hundred percent certainty.

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Speaker 3: Now that is our working assumption.

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Speaker 2: We did hear this from The Wall Street Journal that

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Speaker 2: Irani security officials helped plan Hamas's attacks and gave a

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Speaker 2: green light for the assault at a meeting at Beirut

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Speaker 2: last Monday. According to Seedia, members of Hamas and Hesbala,

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Speaker 2: are you aware of a meeting that took place in

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Speaker 2: the last week between Iran and leadership of Hamas and Hespala.

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Speaker 3: They have meetings all the time, It's not secret. You

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Speaker 3: can see pictures of.

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Speaker 4: Their meeting with Iran leadership, the leadership of their Iranian

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Speaker 4: Revolutionary Guard leadership, their CUDS Force leadership, meeting with these

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Speaker 4: other senior officials. So they had many, many, many meetings

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Speaker 4: over the last few months and they worked very hard.

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Speaker 3: What is Iran trying to do?

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Speaker 4: Those of you, those of your viewers who know the

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Speaker 4: map of the Middle East, know that Iran supports the

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Speaker 4: Shia militias in Iraq there trying to establish a beachhead

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Speaker 4: at Terras's beachhead against Israel and Syria. They support Hazbela

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Speaker 4: in Lebanon, which is the northern part of Israel. They

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Speaker 4: support both Palasin and Islamijihad and Hamas in Gaza. They

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Speaker 4: support the Hutis in Yemen, and what they're trying to

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Speaker 4: do is put a noose around Israel's neck with all

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Speaker 4: of those terror groups there, and we have to make

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Speaker 4: sure that we break out of that noose and deliver

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Speaker 4: such a mighty blow that they're not going to forget

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Speaker 4: it for generations.

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Speaker 1: Ambassador, I want to take your years of experience here,

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Speaker 1: and it's outside your remit, but I'm sure it's something

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Speaker 1: everyone wants to know. I can't get my head around

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Speaker 1: how Israel invades the Gaza Strip. Do you anticipate substantial

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Speaker 1: bombing and air attack or are we ready for some

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Speaker 1: definitive original building to building urban warfare in Gaza.

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Speaker 4: Well, because I'm a member of the security Cabinet, I'm

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Speaker 4: not going to discuss that. Let's just say we have

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Speaker 4: a clear goal to cripple the capability of Kamas and

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Speaker 4: also their will to wage war against us.

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Speaker 3: So you're gonna have to interpret that the way you

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Speaker 3: want to. Have to leave it at that, But it's people.

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Speaker 4: Who doubt Israel's capabilities are making a huge mistake. We

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Speaker 4: will do what we have to do in order to

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Speaker 4: achieve that goal, and we are going to have to

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Speaker 4: achieve this goal obviously, first and foremost, for Israel, but it's.

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Speaker 3: For all of our Arab partners in the region, believe me.

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Speaker 4: Put aside all of those statements that are made by

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Speaker 4: foreign ministries in the region, and some of you may

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Speaker 4: have conversations with officials from the Middle East and they

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Speaker 4: may tell you a very different story about Israel than

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Speaker 4: then they may be saying publicly.

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Speaker 3: There have been times in the past.

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Speaker 4: Where Israel has fought with these terror organizations, and the

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Speaker 4: ones who are rooting for us usually first and foremost

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Speaker 4: are these Arab states were threatened right by these jihadi forces,

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Speaker 4: whether it's a Shia Jiadi force or a Shia group

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Speaker 4: like Iran and its proxies, or Sunni group like Kamas.

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Speaker 4: They don't want these forces of barbarism to win because

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Speaker 4: they threaten them. And this is very just one thing,

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Speaker 4: if I may, this is also very important for the

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Speaker 4: pursuit of peace eventually, because no one.

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Speaker 3: Is going to make peace with the week.

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Speaker 4: We have to be very strong, and it's strength that

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Speaker 4: is actually going to improve our chances to reach an

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Speaker 4: historic piece agreement with Saudi Arabia, which I have no

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Speaker 4: doubt is one of the reasons why this action was

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Speaker 4: taken at this time.

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Speaker 1: For our audience, Ambassador Dermer, can you triangulate the focus

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Speaker 1: obviously on Gaza, but also now on the West Bank

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Speaker 1: in a fractious northern border with Lebanon. How Israel affect

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Speaker 1: a three front war.

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Speaker 4: Well, we have to ensure that our force structure is

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Speaker 4: done in a certain way that we can deal with

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Speaker 4: any threats that would materialize. And you say, quite rightly,

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Speaker 4: we have issues on the northern border. We had sirens

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Speaker 4: there just about an hour ago, we had an attack

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Speaker 4: there yesterday. There are different attempts for attacks, so we

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Speaker 4: have to be clear on a northern border that we

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Speaker 4: have all the capabilities we need to defend ourselves. As

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Speaker 4: you know, the United States brought Carrier Group into the

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Speaker 4: Eastern Mediterranean. I think that sends a very strong message

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Speaker 4: to deutar our enemies and it makes it clear that

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Speaker 4: America backs Israel. And again we're deeply appreciative of a

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Speaker 4: Bide administration for doing that. I think it makes the

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Speaker 4: chances of war less likely, not more likely. And of course,

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Speaker 4: as you said, in the West Bank and Judaan Samario,

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Speaker 4: we've had terror actions that have happened there and we

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Speaker 4: have an iro on that we have to have our

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Speaker 4: eye on a sort of a three hundred and sixty

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Speaker 4: radius in order to deal with all these different challenges.

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Speaker 4: But I'll tell you, the chances of having a multi

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Speaker 4: front row grow when people see Israel as being vulnerable.

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Speaker 4: So the stronger and faster we act, the more it

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Speaker 4: will send a message of strength and purpose, and that

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Speaker 4: message is critical to actually ultimately de escalate the situation

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Speaker 4: and prevent these things from happening for many, many decades.

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Speaker 4: This is an attack, I want to say it again,

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Speaker 4: the lights of which has never happened in the state

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Speaker 4: of Israel. We may have lost a thousand people in

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Speaker 4: a single day, and that has never happened in the

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Speaker 4: state of Israel.

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Speaker 5: There's a big question around Saudi Arabia, and that talks

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Speaker 5: about normalizing relations. I know you've been involved with those,

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Speaker 5: and it seems like those are at least iced in

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Speaker 5: the near term. Saudi Arabia put out a statement saying

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Speaker 5: that it repeated its warnings of the dangers of the

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Speaker 5: explosion of the situation as a result of the continued

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Speaker 5: occupation and deprivation of the Palestinian people of their legitimate rights.

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Speaker 5: How much do you see this as really precluding additional

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Speaker 5: discussions with Saudi Arabia and making this kind of normalization

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Speaker 5: talk not viable in the near term.

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Speaker 4: Well, a lot of people were surprised by the Abraham Accords,

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Speaker 4: you know, a few years ago, when no one thought

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Speaker 4: that that could possibly happen.

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Speaker 3: But Israel proved itself.

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Speaker 4: It's strength, frankly, it's security strength, it's economic vitality. I

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Speaker 4: think that's what made those accords ultimately possible. I think

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Speaker 4: the critical question of whether we're going to be able

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Speaker 4: to achieve this historic piece with Saudi Arabia that pushs

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Speaker 4: the whole Arab is really conflicted to a completely different

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Speaker 4: place and can lead to a broader reconciliation between Muslims

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Speaker 4: and Jews as well. The critical factor will be how

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Speaker 4: Israel emerges from this fight, or do we emerge as

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Speaker 4: a victor. Because people may peace with winners, people make

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Speaker 4: peace with a strong, they do not make peace with

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Speaker 4: the weak, and that will be the critical factor. I'm

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Speaker 4: telling you, take all the statements, all the diplomatic statements

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Speaker 4: that have been made, put them aside.

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Speaker 3: It's not relevant.

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Speaker 4: I think there are many error partners in this region

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Speaker 4: that want a different future, that are thinking about what's

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Speaker 4: going to happen in twenty thirty, forty years down the

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Speaker 4: road when oil doesn't have the value to their countries

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Speaker 4: that it has today.

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Speaker 3: They need a partner in Israel.

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Speaker 4: They can help strengthen their own national security that could

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Speaker 4: help their own national prosperity.

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Speaker 3: You saw a few weeks ago at the.

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Speaker 4: G twenty when several countries, the United States, European countries,

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Speaker 4: India launched this vision of an economic corridor that would

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Speaker 4: go from India through the Arabian Peninsula into Israel and

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Speaker 4: towards Europe. I mean, that's a game changer, an economic

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Speaker 4: game changer for the region. I think the Saudias have

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Speaker 4: great plans for building their country.

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Speaker 3: And believe me, there are a lot.

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Speaker 4: Of people in a lot of places in the Middle East,

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Speaker 4: no matter what they say publicly or rooting for Israel

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Speaker 4: to win, and I think they're going to get exactly

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Speaker 4: what they want.

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Speaker 2: Minister, just to wrap things up, because I know you

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Speaker 2: have to go one final question winning how do you

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Speaker 2: define victory in a moment like this one?

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Speaker 4: Like I said, you have to cripple their capability and

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Speaker 4: you have to crush their will to do such an action.

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Speaker 4: For decades and decades to come, not just Hamas and

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Speaker 4: palisitting islamichi Haat, but also other terror organizations in the region.

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Speaker 4: We rely as a small country on our deterrence, but deterrence.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't last forever.

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Speaker 4: You have to exercise power and force to always make

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Speaker 4: clear to your enemies that you're prepared to fight.

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Speaker 3: Not only do you have the capability, but you have

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Speaker 3: the will to fight.

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Speaker 4: And our enemies Tamas obviously miscalculated here because if they

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Speaker 4: think that this action that they just took and murdering

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Speaker 4: a thousand Israelis and just shooting our civilians and taking

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Speaker 4: scores of people hostage and having over maybe three thousand

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Speaker 4: people who are wounded, that this is going to be

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Speaker 4: business as usual, they just have no idea who the

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Speaker 4: people of Israel are, and I think they're going to

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Speaker 4: find out in the days ahead.

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Speaker 2: Minister, We appreciate your time this morning at a very

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Speaker 2: difficult time for your country, and hopefully we can catch

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Speaker 2: up again soon. Run termadath he Is RUnni, Minister of

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Speaker 2: Strategic Affairs,