1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 2: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 5 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 2: and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 6 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 2: our adversaries. 7 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 8 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: theories large and small. 9 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 2: Could they be true or are we being manipulated? 10 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: This is mission implausible. 11 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 3: So John and Jerry, I'm excited to introduce you to 12 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 3: my friend Drew McCoy. 13 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 4: Hey, Drew, Hey, thanks for having me guys. 14 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:42,279 Speaker 3: So, Drew has a phenomenal YouTube channel, Genetically Modified Skeptic 15 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 3: where I think, Drew, it's fair to say you're one 16 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 3: of the most public voices of what's now known as 17 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 3: the ex evangelical movement, the movement of people who grew 18 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 3: up evangelical Christian no longer are evangelical Christians. None of 19 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 3: the three of us are particularly religious, and we're having 20 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 3: a chat about sure. See like there's a huge overlap 21 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 3: between conspiracy theories from QAnon to whatever the latest Trump 22 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 3: thing is and evangelical Christians. And we were like, why 23 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 3: is that. 24 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 4: Well, hopefully my pain can help elucidate some of the 25 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 4: factors here, My childhood trauma might be able to help 26 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 4: you guys understand a little bit of this. 27 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 5: I hope. 28 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 3: Oh great, Yes, we love childhood trauma. John Cipher, Well, 29 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 3: were you religious at all as a kid? Were your parents? 30 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 3: Did you go to church? 31 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 2: So? 32 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: My parents, my dad was a professor and mom was 33 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: a teacher. No, we didn't go to church. We weren't 34 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: really religious. They weren't trying to promote atheism or anything 35 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: like that. And it wasn't until I was out of college. 36 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: Once we were some function and somebody asked my father 37 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: what he was and he said, I don't. My friend 38 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: told me that they don't think I'm a Christian. Then 39 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: they explained what a Christian is. I guess that's right. 40 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: I just never grew up with much religion, and so 41 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: I'm intimidated about you guys. 42 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 2: And Jerry, you grew up well, okay, last Dave's o'sha 43 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 2: one of ten kids? What do you think all Altra boy? Drew, 44 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: you had the Baptists, we had the Jesuits. They're just 45 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 2: as mind bending for me. And to bring Cia into it, 46 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: and conspiracy theories. When I was younger, I fifth sixth grade, 47 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: I started to question just logically, like this doesn't make 48 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 2: any sense to me, and I was basically told lovingly 49 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 2: shut up and accept it. And it's about faith. And 50 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 2: in Cia we dealt with faith a lot, surprisingly so 51 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: people had faith in communism, feefle had faith and jihadism, 52 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: people had faith in their own ethnic superiority like in 53 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: South Africa, and people did terrible atrocities based on faith 54 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 2: their faith. And with Drew, I was if I could 55 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 2: kick it off, I'd like to know what you think 56 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 2: faith is, because in Cia we've seen faith Shia and 57 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: Sunnis in Iraq where they slaughtered each other, and John 58 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: was in the killing fields of the former ex Yugoslavia 59 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 2: where people were murdering under each other for things we 60 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 2: couldn't understand, and it was all based on faith, not 61 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 2: just religious face, but also faith in a great leader 62 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 2: or an ideology so true. I was wondering if you 63 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: could tell us what you think faith is and how 64 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: we define it, because it's generally a positive word, but 65 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 2: I think in Ceeia we don't often tend not to 66 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 2: see it that way. 67 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 4: It's a good question, and I think that the answer 68 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 4: that's existed in the atheist sphere for quite a while now, 69 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 4: originating with people like Christopher Higgins and Sam Harris, is 70 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 4: fundamentally flawed. The atheist fear likes to say faith is 71 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 4: just bad epistemology. It's just believing in things for which 72 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 4: there is no evidence. And that's not completely incorrect in 73 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 4: certain instances, it's just that's not the entirety of the picture. 74 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 4: So I see faith as strong affiliation and identity with something. 75 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 4: That can be a belief, but just as much it 76 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 4: can be a group, it can be an identity. It 77 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 4: can be like you said, affiliation with or love of 78 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 4: some kind of totalitarian leader. I don't think that faith 79 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 4: needs to be looked at just through a philosophical context, 80 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 4: thinking oh, it's just bad epistemology. It also needs to 81 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 4: be seen sociologically. What does faith do? Faith motivates people 82 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 4: to affiliate with certain groups, to do certain actions, And 83 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 4: that's how I prefer to think about faith. 84 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 3: That lines up with my I didn't grow up particularly religious, 85 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 3: although Jewish, but I did major in history of religion 86 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 3: in college because I was always fascinated, like, how do 87 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 3: people have faith? And a Christian apologist or any kind 88 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 3: of religious apologists would say, oh, you have faith in 89 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 3: Darwinism and the Big Bang and stuff. So putting that 90 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 3: whole argument to one side, the kind of functional use 91 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 3: of faith the way you defined it makes a lot 92 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 3: of sense to me and also helps see like, oh, 93 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 3: that is a frame to look at conspiracy theories. We've 94 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 3: talked about on this show. How you know, if you 95 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 3: suddenly believe in whatever, QAnon, whatever it is, you have 96 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 3: a community, you have a shared frame of reference. One 97 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 3: way I think about it is like you know what 98 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 3: to think and feel in the more when you wake up, 99 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 3: like you have a purpose, you have a goal, you 100 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 3: have an enemy, you have good guys and bad guys, 101 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 3: and so in that sense, it almost makes me wonder like, 102 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 3: where is the line between you know, sort of traditional 103 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 3: religious faith and believing in conspiracy theories? 104 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 1: Yeah? 105 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I actually have a little factoid here that 106 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 4: I wanted to make sure and bring up at the 107 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 4: beginning of this just so that hopefully we can all 108 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 4: be on the same page about what an evangelical is. 109 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 4: Per Ryan Burge, who is a political scientist at Eastern 110 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 4: Illinois University, I've had him on my channel. The identity 111 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 4: of evangelical is not something that is informed solely theologically, 112 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 4: and I think I would actually argue that it's informed 113 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 4: more by a certain kind of political action and identity. 114 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 4: So the evidence of this is that when surveyed in 115 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 4: twenty twenty two, twenty three percent of people who are 116 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 4: Orthodox Christians identified as evangelical. Orthodox Christians come from places 117 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 4: like Russia and Georgia. They're very much not in line 118 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 4: theologically with evangelical Christians in the US. Now, to go 119 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 4: in a more extreme direction, thirty nine percent of Republican 120 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 4: voting Muslims in the United States identify as evangelicals. Traditionally 121 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 4: the enemy of the religious right in the US right, 122 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 4: but now they are identifying with the religious rights so 123 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 4: long as they vote Republican. Now, among Buddhists, twenty five 124 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 4: percent of Republican Buddhists in the United States identify as 125 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 4: born again or evangelical. For Hindus it's thirty seven percent. 126 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 4: We're most definitely not seeing evangelicalism act as a solely 127 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 4: religious category. It's a political category and identity maybe more 128 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 4: than anything else. 129 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: Can I ask you why is that? 130 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: Now? 131 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: I know when I look back at my history, there 132 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: is a tie between what became evangelical religion and anti 133 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: intellectualism in this country. Right, the early Puritans are rigorous 134 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: scholars and revered learning, and they built Harvard University all 135 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 1: those kind of things, and then the Awakening the mid 136 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: eighteenth century, true was intellectually be subordinate to the soul. 137 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: More about spontaneity, a focus on the spirit, personal Bible, 138 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: people can find their own relationship with God and those 139 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: type of things, and it was often tied with moving 140 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: away from that focus on For the Puritans, it was 141 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: a scholarly clergy. But why did it become political? Whim 142 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: evangelicals now tied to politics in our minds. 143 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 4: I'm glad that you brought up the Puritans and how 144 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 4: much they valued education within theology and authority as well. 145 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 4: The Puritans, the Congregational Church was one of the established 146 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 4: churches in the colonies before independence. And the thing that 147 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 4: kind of drove the advent of evangelicalism in the United 148 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 4: States we might recognize it today was the abolishment or 149 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 4: the abolition of state churches and the adoption of a 150 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 4: free market economy within the realm of religion. So I 151 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 4: think that points to a pretty clear overlap between just 152 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 4: an idea that free market values, free market approaches to culture, 153 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 4: to economics need to be valued, and this form of 154 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 4: Protestantism that we see today, evangelicalism is basically extreme libertarian, 155 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 4: free market Christianity, where the most inflammatory positions, where the 156 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 4: most eye catching rhetoric is going to be prized and 157 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 4: made into doctrine that gets repeated and spread. 158 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 2: I enjoy disagreeing with John, so let me just take 159 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: my pet pee for a walk. So I think it's 160 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 2: within the Pilgrim ideology that the first religious forces that 161 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 2: came to the US from Europe. I think conspiracy theories 162 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 2: are embedded in that. Within two generations, there's the sale 163 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 2: in witchcraft trials, right, and in the sixteen nineties and 164 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 2: at one point ten percent of the entire population was 165 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 2: being accused of witchcraft. From a very small population, thirty 166 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 2: five people were brutally murdered, and scholars look back now 167 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: and say, well, actually, yeah, it was religious hysteria arc 168 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 2: but it was also politics, it was also class and 169 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 2: it was also arguably a conspiracy theory that got out 170 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 2: of hand. And I think there's a straight line between 171 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: the Salem witchcraft trials which were biblically based. There's the 172 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 2: thing in the Bible about suffer not which is to 173 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: live right, so that riches must be alive and you 174 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 2: must execute them to QAnon today and I'm throwing open 175 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 2: to the groups, what's the sense of politics, conspiracy theories 176 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: religion and what we have in the US. 177 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 4: The peak of witch trials in all of religious history, 178 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 4: as far as I can tell, or at least in 179 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 4: Christian history as far as I can tell, is actually 180 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 4: happening in early modern Europe as a result of Protestants 181 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 4: and Catholics fighting for the first time, because Protestants actually 182 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 4: came onto the scene printing press and Protestantism had really 183 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 4: a hand in hand relationship. And what I see Protestantism 184 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 4: as is a move toward a free market approach to 185 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 4: create Ristianity rather than this kind of high church liturgical 186 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 4: approach to Christianity with everything is just based in authority, 187 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 4: and for better or worse, it seems like free market 188 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 4: approaches to religion breed ideas that can be very much 189 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 4: steeped in fear, in moral panic, and inflammatory rhetoric, simply 190 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 4: because this is the type of human communication that cashes 191 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 4: human attention. The most Martin Luther really stoked moral panic 192 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 4: in accusing the Catholic Church of a bunch of things 193 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 4: which were of course maybe necessary to call out, but 194 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 4: and effective. This is that people get really scared, really 195 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 4: riled up. They start looking for enemies everywhere, and they 196 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 4: eventually start accusing what today we would just consider to 197 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 4: be maybe more masculine women, religious minorities, gay people of witchcraft, 198 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 4: and then unlike with the Salem witch trials, killing a 199 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 4: lot of them, not just accusing a few hundred and 200 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 4: killing something like night eineteen, but killing hundreds of them. 201 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 5: While I do. 202 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 4: With my Protestant roots, tend to think that a free 203 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 4: market approach to things is good, I think when it 204 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 4: comes to religion, I can't deny that there's a serious 205 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 4: connection between a free market religious economy and moral panic. 206 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 4: And that means conspiracy theories. 207 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 208 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 3: I mean we see in countries today that have established 209 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 3: religions parts of Europe, the United Kingdom, Christian religious practice 210 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 3: is much less right and self identified. I mean, we 211 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 3: are now catching up with Europe in our the percentage 212 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 3: of Americans who don't have a religious belief, but we're 213 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 3: still as I understand it, way higher than a lot 214 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 3: of European countries where they have. In fact, I believe 215 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 3: there's strong evidence that separation of church and state was 216 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 3: as much for the church as it was for the state, 217 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 3: that there was an understanding that having one state religion 218 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 3: would actually hurt religious practice. 219 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 220 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 3: All right, we're going to get right back into that, 221 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 3: but first let's hear this. 222 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: Evangelicals. Now, I tend to think about them in the 223 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: political sphere, and they tend to be very focused on 224 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: right wing politics, and as such, oftentimes I think that 225 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: they look down on people like me who aren't believers. 226 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: And maybe that's wrong, but it seems that they think 227 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: that non believers sort of pretentious, are pompous intellectuals and 228 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: what have you. But is there an arrogance to being 229 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: a believer? It seems to me that it's the height 230 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 1: of arrogance to claim that you know there is one 231 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: truth and you have a relationship with God and someone 232 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: else doesn't. 233 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 4: Now, there are a lot of religious traditions that do 234 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 4: stress kind of the death of the ego, thinking about 235 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 4: something like Sufi mysticism, even mysticism within the Orthodox Church. 236 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 4: To a certain degree, things like this things in New Age, 237 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 4: they very much lessen the esteem of the individual or 238 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 4: sense of identity of the individual and try to integrate 239 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 4: this self into a larger whole. But speaking specifically about 240 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 4: Evangelic Christianity, there absolutely is a strong identitarian attitude. The 241 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 4: way that I mean identitarian attitudes are strong ideas that 242 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 4: you and your group or a specific identity group culture 243 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 4: should control everything, should have at least far more power 244 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 4: than anyone else. Within the Evangelical Christian Church, within Protestant 245 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,239 Speaker 4: churches generally, but especially when you start going very conservative, 246 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 4: there is a strong identitarian idea. When Jesus said to 247 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 4: go to the highways in the hedges, he was not 248 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 4: saying go to the highways and the hedges to make 249 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 4: sure that everybody goes to heaven. He was saying that, 250 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 4: but he was also saying, go to the highways and 251 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 4: the hedges and tell them that they need to basically 252 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 4: bow down before you and your control over politics, over culture, 253 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 4: over arguably economics, and so yes, I definitely think that 254 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 4: there is a form of arrogance and even narcissism within 255 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 4: a specific the type of Christian theology that is encapsulated 256 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 4: in evangelicalism right now. 257 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 2: And I'd expand that beyond just Christianity. So I spent 258 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: a lot of time as his Adam in the Middle East, 259 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 2: and John has spent time in South Asia and dealing 260 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 2: with Muslims, right And it's not anti William, but this 261 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 2: is they have the same sort of thing. When I've 262 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 2: talked to al Qaeda people, we've captured al Qaeda fighters, 263 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 2: they have this religious not only just faith, but fervor 264 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 2: that they are not terrorists. We're the terrorists, but they 265 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 2: are actually the warriors of God. They are divinely ordained 266 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 2: to kill us. And as a CIAF are trying to 267 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 2: explain this to the US political establishment. It's not you're 268 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: not going to defeat them in Afghanistan. You're not going 269 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: to defeat them with bombs and bullets. What you're struggling 270 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 2: with here is faith and however you want to define it. 271 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 2: And I recall one particular instance when I was in 272 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 2: a rock just after Moses had fallen, and if you remember, 273 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 2: it was like three thousand Isis guys defeated fifty thousand 274 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 2: Iraqi troops and Washington is like, how could this possibly be? 275 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 2: It's because one side believes they actually believe they're from God, 276 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: and Washington just couldn't get it, like, no, no, they 277 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 2: can't be true. It's got to be they got more money, 278 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 2: They've got this. It's like, you can't pay these guys 279 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 2: like an extra three hundred dollars to blow themselves up. 280 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: And that's again, that's something we struggle within the national 281 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 2: security space is understanding the fervency of this outside of the. 282 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 4: Beltleigh, Yeah, I think that I've witnessed this idea within 283 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 4: the atheist community, especially which very strongly exists with an 284 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 4: evangelical community of basically religious essentialism. There is some kind 285 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 4: of discernible fundamental essence of true religion that must exist 286 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 4: in order for something to be true religion. Religion in 287 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 4: its true form and its pure form, cannot be influenced 288 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 4: by outside factors. It just is as it is. And 289 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 4: so that means that people like Sam Harris have been 290 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 4: driven to say that what's fundamentally wrong with Islam is 291 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 4: the fundamentals of Islam. He does not factor in any 292 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 4: kind of outside influence into what he believes is true 293 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 4: Islam or true Christianity. These things are defined entirely through 294 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 4: a theological Lens. 295 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 2: I want to just jump in to say, the people 296 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 2: we were using to fight isis were other Muslims, right, 297 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 2: So it's not like in Islam thing, it's what version 298 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 2: thereof or how you define faith and how it's exploited. 299 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 4: Perhaps, Yeah, definitely. Now, religious scholars and sociologists in general 300 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 4: over the last ten years I think have been really 301 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 4: they've always stressed this, but strongly stressing as a response 302 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 4: to public ideas about religion, that religion is fundamentally malleable, 303 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 4: and these ideas of fundamentalism that are really popular in 304 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 4: atheist and Christian circles alike today are a reductionist. They're 305 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 4: essentialist the kind of Islam that you are describing here. 306 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 4: While maybe they can make theologically salient arguments for why 307 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,239 Speaker 4: these things are linked to the Qoran, we like to 308 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 4: reduce the development of ideas like this to being oh, 309 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 4: they read the Koran and then they acted on it. 310 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 4: Whereas when we look in different contexts we see Islam 311 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 4: in somewhere like Indonesia, in places where people are a 312 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,719 Speaker 4: bit wealthier, where it's very multicultural, where it's multi lingual, 313 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 4: we just don't see the same kind of radicalism and 314 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 4: fundamentalism popping up. To me, this means that there's got 315 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 4: to be some kind of other factor. There's got to 316 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 4: be economic factors, there's got to be social and cultural 317 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 4: factors going on. Maybe it's a bad idea for me 318 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 4: to pick a fight about foreign policy here with you 319 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 4: guys at all. That's not my expertise. You're a popular 320 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 4: American project has been to say that American foreign policy 321 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 4: does not have anything to do with the rise of Wahabism, 322 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 4: this kind of ultra fundamentalist and violent form of Islam. 323 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 4: While I wouldn't defend the idea that America created fundamentalist 324 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 4: is Lam, I think that's reductive too. I think that 325 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 4: we do need to look at social, economic, cultural political 326 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 4: factors when we're explaining why basically these fifteen year old 327 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 4: boys would go out and start murdering their fellow citizens 328 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 4: in the name of the same religion. Essentially. 329 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 3: I did a story in two thousand and two for 330 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 3: The New York Times. I interviewed a group of guys 331 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 3: who wanted to be suicide bombers, and I interviewed three, 332 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 3: and two of them disappeared. I don't know what happened, yes, 333 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 3: but we can guess. And this was in Jordan in 334 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 3: two thousand and two. It was clear there was probably 335 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 3: going to be a war with Iraq. So there was 336 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 3: a handful of options and they were very aware of them. 337 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 3: There was Israel, which was their first choice, but the 338 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 3: hardest to access. There was Iraq coming up. They were 339 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 3: excited about that. The easiest, they said, was Chechhnia, which 340 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 3: at the time you just raised your hand and they 341 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 3: were in. At least that's what these kids told me. 342 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 3: You could be in Chech fairly quickly. They knew how 343 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 3: to get you in there. Kashmir, I was surprised to 344 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 3: hear was also a favorite spot they actually I witnessed 345 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 3: an interesting argument between them where two of them said 346 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 3: they might just stay in Jordan and kill Americans in Jordan, 347 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 3: and the other one saying, no, you can't in Jordan 348 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,719 Speaker 3: because the Quran says, and I don't know the Korah, 349 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 3: I don't know if this is true, but says something 350 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 3: like you can kill an invading army, but not an 351 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 3: invited army. And since the King of Jordan had invited 352 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 3: the Americans, you couldn't kill them in Jordan. But the 353 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 3: second they cross into Iraq, it was fair game, and 354 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 3: that by this logic also anyone in Israel, it's fair 355 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 3: game because they see that the entire Israel as an invasion. 356 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 3: But one of these guys, who was by far the smartest, 357 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,360 Speaker 3: and I will let you know, I'm still friends with him, 358 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 3: he actually gave up that way, and he lives in Texas. 359 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 3: Now he's a lovely guy, honestly, no joke, Drew, I 360 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 3: should introduce you sometime. But he's still a devout Muslim, 361 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 3: but not he rejects violence. Now that's good, Yes, that's good. 362 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 3: But he was explicit. He just walked me through. He's like, 363 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 3: I am a poor Palestinian kid from a bad family 364 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 3: in Jordan. Like not a bad family, just a poor, 365 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 3: unconnected family. I'm a really good computer programmer, but I 366 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 3: can't get ahead because everywhere I go to get a job, 367 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 3: like the nephew of the owner who's an idiot, gets 368 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 3: promoted above me. And I want to be proud, and 369 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 3: if I could get a job at Microsoft, I'd much 370 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 3: prefer that to being a suicide bomber. But I don't 371 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 3: know any other way to be proud. And he was explicit. 372 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 3: He said, if I get a good programming job. I'm 373 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 3: not going to do it. If I don't, I will. 374 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 3: He did, by the way, get a good programming job, 375 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 3: and that's what he does in Texas. I spent time 376 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 3: in Haiti where I mean, obviously, Haiti's a religious country, 377 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 3: but it's not a religious lent. The violence isn't religiously tinged. 378 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 3: And John and Jerry, you both have spent time in 379 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 3: countries where there is no gredible promise of an improved 380 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 3: life over time, and when you feel a fairly high 381 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,199 Speaker 3: likelihood that the existing system, the existing real world, the 382 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 3: existing economic order, political order, is just going to continue 383 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 3: to suck. You start to understand how the vast majority 384 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 3: of people in those conditions don't become suicie pommers or 385 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,959 Speaker 3: terrorists and don't turn to violence. But you can understand 386 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 3: how religious faith that it transports you out of those conditions, 387 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 3: that allows you to imagine other planes or other worlds 388 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 3: where there's an alternate, happier life, either happening now or 389 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 3: could happen in the future. It just feels obvious. 390 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: Let's take a break, we'll be right back. 391 00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 3: All right, back to mission implausible. 392 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 2: I really want to jump in and say that, So 393 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 2: there's the doc Trinle, Right, so there's everybody's got everybody. 394 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 2: All cultures have a religion, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism. What happens, though, 395 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 2: is there's a narrative that goes with it can be interpreted, 396 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: and I'd call it a conspiracy theory. Right. So within 397 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 2: Islam there are people who are interpreting certain ways for 398 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 2: their own political power achieve a sense of aggrievement. John's 399 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 2: an expert on Yugoslavia, but they all got along fairly 400 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 2: well during the Yugoslav days. And yet when these conspiracy theories, 401 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 2: these narratives of Serb supremacy or of proat supremacy or 402 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 2: whatever it is, they get involved and it becomes violent, 403 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 2: and there's there's radical polarization. And I'm concerned because I'm 404 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 2: starting to see that we're beginning to see that in 405 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 2: the US much more than we've ever had the sort 406 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 2: of the politics of agreement, the narratives of a larger 407 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 2: conspiratorial view of life. How you look at things. 408 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: Du how would a real believer answer a question that 409 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: I often wonder, like why aren't Christian values enough? Why 410 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: isn't it okay just to lead a good, clean Christian life, love, 411 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: they neighbor, etc. Without having to believe in personal God 412 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: or God at all. 413 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 4: First of all, the idea within evangelical Christianity is that 414 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 4: the ultimate basis for morality, the reason why human beings 415 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 4: have any sort of sense of morality whatsoever, is because 416 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 4: it was programmed into the human mind by God or 417 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 4: the human heart, actually, I should say by God. So 418 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 4: the only reason John, you are able to live a good, 419 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 4: clean life, as you say, is because you are borrowing 420 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 4: from God's plan, from God's design. If we want to 421 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 4: achieve a simulacra of or closeness to moral perfection, we 422 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 4: can't just trust our own moral nature. That is necessary. 423 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 4: We need to use our moral nature that God gave us. 424 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 4: But we also need to inform that moral nature every 425 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 4: day constantly by communing with God himself, and that can 426 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 4: be achieved through both prayer and specifically for evangelical Christians, 427 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 4: reading God's perfect, divinely inspired word in the Bible as 428 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 4: it is canonized for Protestants. At least, sure, most Evangelicals 429 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 4: actually wouldn't dispute that it's hypothetically possible to be a 430 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 4: quote good person in life as a non evangelical or 431 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 4: non Christian, but you're not going to be approximating moral perfection. 432 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 4: And maybe most importantly here, you're absolutely not going to 433 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 4: go to heaven. It doesn't matter if you are essentially sinless. 434 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 4: If you send one time, you're going to go to 435 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 4: Hell forever and burn for all of eternity. There's reasons 436 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 4: to want to get close to God, both in life 437 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 4: and for the sake of your afterlife. 438 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 2: It seems you're screwed, John. 439 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 3: I have a video. 440 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 4: About how to go to Hell in every religion where 441 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 4: I get scholars to explain to me how you can 442 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 4: go to hell in the world's five major religions as 443 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 4: well as five life larger but minority religions. So if 444 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 4: you guys are interested in fleeing from moral perfection and 445 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 4: securing an afterlife of torment and terror, then you can 446 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 4: definitely like and subscribe. 447 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 3: Don't go to Shintoism. That's a tough one for hell 448 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 3: is one thing I learned from your video. So, Drew, 449 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 3: I want to just switch to your Like, you grew 450 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 3: up in a would you say fundamentalists Christian home? 451 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 4: Yes? 452 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. Talk a bit about the world you grew up 453 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 3: in and how conspiracy theories, like were they around, how 454 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 3: they played a role in your childhood. 455 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 4: So I grew up in the independent Fundamental Baptist Church. 456 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 4: So you guys heard of the Scopes monkey trial. We 457 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 4: were rooting for the prosecution. We believed that God created 458 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 4: the world in six literal days, and on the seventh 459 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 4: day he rested. That's why we have the Sabbath. We 460 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 4: believed that the Grand Canyon and all other giant geological 461 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 4: features that obviously took a lot of time to make, 462 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 4: we're all created by the world wide flood that happened 463 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 4: about four thousand years ago or so. When we read 464 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 4: about the Tower of Babel and about how God confused 465 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 4: people to slow their efforts to approximate His godhood, that's 466 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 4: actually a story about where languages came from. The reason 467 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 4: why Sanskrit came into existence, the reason why Indo European 468 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 4: languages came into existence, the reason why Chinese eventually came 469 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,719 Speaker 4: into existence, was all because God essentially created these languages 470 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 4: when he scattered people at the Tower of Babel. We 471 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 4: explained everything through a very hyper literalist Christian framework, where 472 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 4: every story in the Bible, even if it's a parable, 473 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 4: actually literally happened, it's actual history. And when you grow 474 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 4: up in that way, your community develops ways to basically 475 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 4: circle the wagons. It develops infrastructure to reinforce the idea 476 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 4: that all of this stuff is real science, real history, 477 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 4: in order to defend its ideology, and it's very identity. 478 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 4: So I grew up in private Christian schools and homeschool 479 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 4: co ops where we essentially consumed religious propaganda as if 480 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 4: it was scientific content. And this was driven not by 481 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 4: just an idea that creation science is real science, but 482 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 4: also by the fact that if we are not teaching 483 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 4: creation as science to children, then our entire identitarian project 484 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 4: of dominating the world will never reach fruition. So the 485 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:39,959 Speaker 4: pseudoscience is really driven by identitarian ideas within these communities. 486 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 4: And what is that other than a conspiracy theory. We 487 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 4: essentially thrived on an infrastructure that was meant to protect 488 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 4: identity through the propagation of conspiracy theories. So it's really 489 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 4: no wonder that someone who was raised as I would 490 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 4: would go on to believe in anti vax ideas and 491 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 4: planandemic ideas and all sorts of things into having conspiratorial 492 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 4: notions about the deep state, believing in cabals of Satanic pedophiles, 493 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 4: draining children of a drenochrone. And when you're primed psychologically 494 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 4: to accept conspiracy theories in order to defend your identity, 495 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 4: then it's pretty easy to hear something on four Chan 496 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 4: from q and adopt that and not really think that 497 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 4: you're doing anything out of the ordinary. 498 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 3: You're already like best case scenario if you see the 499 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 3: world that way. I mean, belief in creationism, rejection of evolution. 500 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 3: It's a hard thing to poll, and the surveys are 501 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 3: all over the place, but it's forty percent. I mean, 502 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 3: it's a lot of Americans we believe in some version 503 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 3: of creationism. Some of them are have some kind of 504 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 3: hybrid synthesis. God started the process, but Darwinism took over. 505 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 3: But if you believe that the government, all teachers, all universities, 506 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 3: all science, all textbooks, all TV shows, all documenties are 507 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 3: lying already just as a base, like how much harder 508 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 3: is it to then believe? And they're also lying about chemtruch. 509 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 3: But then on top of it, and I've spent some 510 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 3: time with devout fundamentalists, at least for some the presence 511 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 3: of demons, of forces of Satan is a sounds like 512 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 3: a very active, real part of their day to day experience. 513 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 3: If they slip on the ice and break their ankle, 514 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 3: that's Satan's work. If their cousin dies from a drug overdose, 515 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 3: that's because there was a demon. If Joe Biden wins 516 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 3: the President c in twenty twenty, that satanic. The very 517 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 3: narrative of the universe is a very clean, simple story 518 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 3: of entirely good fighting entirely evil, and for various complex reasons, 519 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 3: much of day to day life is dominated by entirely evil, 520 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 3: right am, I over. 521 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely absolutely. The community that I grew up in 522 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 4: was very strongly dualistic. I was in a form of 523 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 4: Christianity that was against alcohol, and the roots of our 524 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 4: denomination is actually found in the movement of pro prohibition teetotalers. 525 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 3: I'm sorry to interrupt. That always struck me as weird, 526 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 3: because Jesus did turn water into wine, which seems like 527 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 3: something of an endorsement. 528 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 4: Well, Adam, you know what, does it say that he 529 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 4: got drunk? No, it does not, And do we know 530 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 4: that he wasn't drinking something that was a non alcoholic 531 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 4: grape beverage like Welsh's grape juice. This is a real argument. 532 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 4: By the way, we don't know that he actually had 533 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 4: alcohol within that and if he did, it was only 534 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 4: to basically cleanse the juice that he was drinking to 535 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 4: hydrate himself of harmful microbes. It had nothing to do 536 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 4: with getting drunk. Christians don't get drunk, and they never have. 537 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 5: I've seen a few is they're not true Christians. John, Yeah, 538 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 5: but I cut you off. You were saying you grew 539 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 5: up in this world and was Satan and demons part 540 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 5: of the world you grew up in. 541 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, The reason why we were so against alcohol was 542 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 4: not because it was unhealthy or increased vices through some 543 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 4: psychological process. It was actually because it's a tool of 544 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 4: Satan to destroy God's kingdom. So I remember the first 545 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 4: time as an atheist going into a bar, being confronted 546 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 4: by the fact that I had been primed to be 547 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 4: afraid of this kind of place, and I found myself 548 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 4: almost you know the feeling when you watch a really 549 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 4: scary horror movie and then you walk around at night 550 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 4: at your house and you look over your shoulder and 551 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 4: look down the dark hallway and you're paranoid that the 552 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 4: Baba Duke is going to come and get you, even 553 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 4: though you know it's not going to. I would experience 554 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 4: that in a bar, thinking when this bottle moves across 555 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 4: the bar, there might be a spirit in the spirit right, 556 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 4: there might be a demon in the bottle. Quite literally, 557 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 4: it's a tool of the devil. And so there's demons 558 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 4: just infused in the these cocktails. Really wow. And yes, 559 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 4: you are looking over your shoulder constantly. You're looking for 560 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 4: the veil to be lifted, as they would say, constantly 561 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 4: they're trying to see behind the veil, the separation between 562 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 4: the natural and the supernatural, the spiritual and the natural. 563 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: There's a demon in everclear. I'll tell you that from Kylege. 564 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 6: We're gonna stop here for now and come back next 565 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 6: week with part two of our conversation with Drew McCoy. 566 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 6: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher, 567 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 6: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission 568 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 6: Implausible It's a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures 569 00:32:43,680 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 6: for iHeart Podcasts.