WEBVTT - Parental Alienation (Teddy Riley recap) 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:02.960 Hey, y'all, hey, what's up, and welcome the let's Red 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:07.080 table that I'm tracy t row and I'm Kral Pressley 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:10.640 and we are listen. We're diving in the family dynamics 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:15.239 once again in this episode, but in a totally new way, uh, 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.400 and you know, successful ways, as red table talk likes 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:23.960 to do. Today's episode is focused and centered on parenttal alienation, 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:29.200 which is one parent viciously turning their child against the 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.600 other parents. That is horrible and I just can't even 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:35.720 imagine that. You know, my parents were divorced when I 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:38.400 was super young, Carl, so I didn't grow up in 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:40.199 the household with like my mom and dad, like my 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:45.280 older siblings. But to hear poor Ashland and her story 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.360 and what happened with her and and dizzy and what 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:52.120 Jennifer did, I just want to say that, yeah, there 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:54.240 were times when my mom may have said some things 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:56.600 that were not necessarily the most positive things to say 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:03.040 about my dad. However, Comma, she didn't go in like Jennifer. Jennifer, 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:07.240 what are your thoughts on Jennifer? Bless your heart. You know, 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:11.600 Jennifer starting out with bless her heart. I generally say 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:13.839 that when I don't know what to say. My bless 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:16.000 your heart really means that I pray the Lord comes 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:19.520 and surrounds it. Yeah, that's the southern bless your heart 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:21.759 means blesh your heart too. No, yeah, it was hard 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.600 to watch her overall, just because I think this season 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:26.840 the red table talks, so many things with parenting are 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.560 being discussed, the different facets of being a parent, and 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:34.479 I just I never ever tapped into the parents who 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:41.000 are truly abusing their power, like really using their words 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:46.240 to gain their best interests, like just completely tear someone 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:49.360 else down. I think it's ridiculous. It was hard to watch. 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:52.120 A long time ago, actually, probably about twenty years now, 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:56.120 I saw Teddy Rowley at King's dominion. So it was 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:58.120 hard to watch him be hurt because in my mind 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:00.600 we are good friends. Okay, so, wait minute, what is 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:05.440 King's dominion? Kings Dominion is an event park in Richmond, Virginia. So, like, 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:08.760 you know, six flags, right, it's Virginia's version. And so 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:13.919 because you saw him, it may kinship to your friends. Okay, 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:17.320 this in my head. Okay, okay, so one time it 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:21.079 didn't even speak. One time in Afar, hey, taddy, listen 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:23.720 and I saw Jaya singing no digity on the on 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:28.320 the on the episode. But you know, it was hard 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:30.000 to watch. I will say that what I take from 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.280 what you said is that when you have an alignment 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.360 or fill an affinity for someone, it is hard to 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:40.120 watch them be mistreated. Jennifer, she didn't have her answer, 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:43.920 her response, she did not have any remorse. She didn't. 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:48.200 I mean, dinny owned his ish. Okay, dinny owned his 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:52.360 dangna Ish. Jennifer not so much. She came up with 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:55.560 that lame when we were young. Yeah, you know, lack 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:59.079 of accountabilities and all time high. It's people. People don't care. 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:01.720 I think she cared about herself. I think she cared 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:03.600 about trying to stick it to dizzy and that's what 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:08.000 she did. That's what she did fully. Um. Yeah, it's 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.360 difficult to why even again back to tell you, rally 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:13.640 like he a Samma King's dominion, that is a family part, 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:17.079 that's a family place. Like this is an accident. So 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:20.280 it is hard to just see again people abusing their 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.720 power and I think, you know, this episode was a 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:28.200 clear example. I think people immediately want to say that 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:31.040 women are the root of all this and women do 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.840 it and they're gonna hold your back. But that's why 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:37.600 I'm excited about today's episode, because our guests actually had 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.720 an issue with the dad. So you know we're not 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:43.480 gonna we're not just placing this on women. It is 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:47.160 not women having an attitude or being rude or whatever 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.000 people may want to say. But yeah, it happens on 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:52.920 both sides. Well, one thing we know for sure is 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:57.360 that our episode today includes a phenomenal story of reunited 0:03:57.640 --> 0:03:59.920 and so I can't wait because it's going to be fantastic. 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:04.680 Our community is our backbone and we love to hear 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:07.680 from you. We've asked our community what they thought of 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:11.920 this episode and so many of you related. Here are 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:16.559 some of your answers. Okay, well, listen. Stephanie Hacox said, 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.320 I haven't spoken or seen my daughter since two thousand 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:21.919 and eight because of the lies and brainwashing of my 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:25.080 ex husband. It's horrible. I lost touch with both my 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:28.359 kids due to my ex's attempt to keep me out 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.960 of their lives. That's it's so heartbreaking. Some of these 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:35.800 oh my gosh, I just I mean, you don't want 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:37.159 to know that there are people that relate to the 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:38.640 show as much as you know there are people that 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:42.120 relate to the show. So we're grateful to you, Stephanie, 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:45.880 that you shared and we're hoping that you have reconciliation, 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:51.480 because that's just hard. Dana. George Orensby said, I know 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.760 about this topic all too well. It's been the reason 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:58.080 I pledged that, if my relationship ended, I would never 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:02.080 speak negatively about or keep my children's father from them. 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:05.479 I remember how hurtful it was as a child. Dana, 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:08.200 good for you. We are giving you two thumbs up 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:11.479 on that. Rachel Smith said, I so feel this. My 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:14.480 ex and his parents have kept my daughter away. Oh 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:17.520 that's unfortunate with the parents involved. Right last time I 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:22.200 saw her she was seven. She's now sixteen. Pivotal years, 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:27.839 pivotal you. She's a completely different child from seven to sixteen. Rachel, 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.440 we send our loving, positive energy to you and Rob 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.640 Woodburn said. I have been alienated from my seventeen year 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.920 old daughter since she was eleven. Love your children more 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:40.960 than you hate your ex. Gives me hope. I look 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:43.920 forward to the day I see her again. Rob, we 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:47.279 hope for you that that comes sooner rather than later 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:49.760 for both you and your seventeen year old daughter. Thank you, 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:53.919 community for sharing and being transparent. Absolutely, and keep those 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:58.200 great comments coming. We love your engagement with us. We're 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:00.200 going to take a quick break, but when we get 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:03.520 back will be joined by two incredible guests from our 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:11.680 Red Table Talk Community and we're bringing to ourtc community 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.680 members to our virtual red table today who actually are 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.800 mother and daughter. That's the first. That's a let's red table. 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:22.919 That first. I love it. I have the honor of 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:26.040 introducing Caroline, who is the mother. Caroline McLeod is a 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.400 mother of three, but she's been alienated from two of 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:34.000 her children for the past ten years. After enduring years 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:36.839 of domestic violence from the father of her children, she 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:40.520 filed for divorce. Her ex husband used her struggles with 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:44.280 alcohol addiction against her in court, gaining full custody of 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:48.240 their children and slowly turning them against her. Caroline is 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:50.680 here to share her story and shine a light on 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:54.040 this epidemic. Thank you for joining us on let's Red 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:59.080 table that, Caroline. Thank you for having me. Caitlin O'Neill 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:01.560 thought her alm was choosing to not be a part 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:04.600 of her life, but after six years of being alienated 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:07.240 from her mom, she learned the truth. Her Dad had 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:09.960 been lying to her and her two siblings for years. 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:12.320 So caitlin built up the courage to reach out to 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.720 her mom and they have been reconnected ever since. But 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:19.120 now CAITLIN has no relationship with her two siblings, who 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.440 are still under her dad's influence. So we are grateful 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:24.600 that you both could join us so we can share 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:28.080 both you and your mom's perspectives on this experience. So 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:30.360 thank you, welcome and thanks for being a part of 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.560 this with us. Thank you for having me. Thank you 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:35.840 so much to both of you. We really appreciate it. 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:46.120 WE'RE gonna kick it off by going ahead and talking 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:48.880 about the actual full episode. This is the part of 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:52.440 the show where we reveal which moments made us pause, rewind, 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:58.320 listen again and just say what. Wait, what? When gammy 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:02.080 revealed they are being alienated from a family member and 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.160 they didn't know why, Gammy said, we've had to deal 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:08.200 with it. This person didn't want her child to be 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.200 a part of our family, and it was. It was 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:12.760 devastating and we don't even know why. We don't even 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:16.600 know what happened. It's the niece, it's the cousin and 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:19.960 they're out of the family. That's hard parental alienation is 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.800 one of those things, like domestic violence, we all know 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:25.160 somebody who's been affected by it in one way or another. 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.160 Many times we may not know what the word is 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:32.400 that they're experiencing, but yeah, it's my experience that a 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:35.720 lot of people have experienced this same thing and there's 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:37.679 such a revelation to when I talked to so many 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:40.600 different parents across the country about they finally feel like 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:43.400 they've got a name to what they've been experiencing for 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.439 two years, three years, five years, ten years, and so 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.600 it helps that to give them some validation as well. 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.720 And having the name makes all the differences, like hey, 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.079 I know what this is and be I know now 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:58.200 that it has a name or term, I'm not alone, right, 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:00.319 and you can start to kind of dissect it, right, 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:03.160 what are the pieces? Am I playing a part? Is 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:05.679 it me or and then you can also cannot, as 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:09.160 Tracy would say, affirm yourself and say no, this actually 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:12.160 is not me, it's not only me, it's not all 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:14.880 my fault, my responsibility. With dizzy was one of those 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:18.040 parents who, in my opinion, was a victim of a 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:20.120 lot of what was going on and you know, he 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.120 straight up took responsibility for his actions and I think 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.520 his parents. We do hold on to a lot of 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:30.120 that guilt and it's really hard to let go of 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:33.720 the guilt. But once you realize that you're not crazy, 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:36.600 your reality is not being distorted by all of this, 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.440 then you can start to see through a lot of 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.199 the abuse that is currently going on and start to realize, 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:43.920 oh my gosh, I really was a victim and a 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.160 lot of this, and I do think he was a victim, 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:48.560 and just as much as his daughter was. But he 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.280 wanted to carry that guilt, which is sad in itself 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:55.760 as well. M Hm. That was sad because for Ashland, 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:59.840 she literally internalized what her mother said. Right, she would 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.880 a bad things about him. My first feeling was, oh 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.719 my God, she's saying bad things about me because it's 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:09.920 part of me, right. So I would internalize all these things, 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:14.040 Jennifer's negativity toward dizzy. She's like, well, wait a minute, 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.040 he's a part of me, so if what you're saying 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:19.559 is negative about him, what you're saying is negative about 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:22.680 me too. And she literally made those be about her. 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:26.439 It really affected her self esteem, her identity. She had 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:28.800 a lot of different issues that was just based on 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:33.079 what her mother said about her dad. And then, interestingly enough, 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:37.680 Jada thought, wait a second, mom, should you have alienated 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:39.840 Me From My Dad? And I thought that this was 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:44.360 such an important part. This was a fantastic, distinguishable moment 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:48.880 for me that Gammy made sure that she told not 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:52.760 only Jada but the world that Jada's Dad may have 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:57.960 had questionable decisions, but he wasn't a bad father and 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:02.160 even though when their parents, ants or x is involved, 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:04.920 they may not have the best parenting skills, but that 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:08.640 doesn't make them be bad people and that you should 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:11.080 be alienated from them just because they may let you 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:14.280 stay up later eat cake for breakfast. Right, that's a 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:18.239 totally different animal. Right, all right. Well, then there's alienation 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.160 and there's like protection. Right, there may be some instances 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:23.320 where you need to keep a child away from a 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:28.239 parent for a protection instance situation for themselves or yourself, 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:33.719 but the alienation, I think, is the single sided control 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:37.200 that this episode helps me kind of point out and 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:42.400 really identifying and understand. Let's tap into the story of 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.680 Ashlan's mom letting Ashlyn meet dizzy just so he would 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:52.120 sign away his parental rights. My Kid's Stepdad telling me, 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:55.080 don't worry, I'll make sure she never takes your children 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:58.000 away from you again. And the minute the papers were 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:00.559 signed and the car doors were shut and everybody drove off, 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:03.400 that was the last time I saw I thought that 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:06.720 was so manipulative. Caitlin and Caroline, let's hear from you 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.920 on this. As an alienated child, my dad, I know, 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:13.800 pushed for my step mom to adopt me. That breaks 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.280 my heart. My mom is my mom. She carried me 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:20.200 for nine months. I'm part of her and I would 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:23.560 never want that. I felt for Ashlyn. She's losing a 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:25.319 piece of her and even with like when she was 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:28.440 talking about how she internalized what her mom said, I 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.440 did too. My Dad always was constantly putting me down 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:33.559 and comparing me to my mom. Oh, you're a liar, 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:35.679 just like her, oh you look just like or Oh, 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:37.880 why do you act like her, and stuff like that, 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:40.400 but I didn't know any better. That's how I was raised, 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:42.839 that's how I was taught. I was with her until 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.400 I was ten before I got taken away. So I 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.199 was like for ten years. This is who I became, 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:51.800 and now you're telling me I'm not an okay person. Okaitlyn, 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:53.640 how did that make you fail? Oh my gosh, I 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:58.160 felt like I became worthless, like I didn't have a voice. And, truthfully, 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:00.839 through all of what I've been through, I learned I 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:05.160 don't have voice. The voice that I had was gone. 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:07.719 You got taken away, and I don't think a lot 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:11.040 of people realize that. Is that when even just a 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:14.520 normal divorce, they're trying to do what's right for the kids, 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.240 but they don't ever take what the kids say or 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:19.280 they tell the kids that this is what they're gonna 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:22.320 do and they're gonna use big words and we don't 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:26.200 understand that. I think really truthfully, everything needs to be 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.920 about the kids and what they need and what they want, 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.080 and I just I'm firm on that. They should have 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.120 a voice. They should decide who they want to live with, 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.840 who they want to see. Even though my siblings and 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:38.560 I we don't see each other and we don't talk. 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:40.800 I know there are times where I don't see Ey 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:42.680 die with them and I don't have a say for them, 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:46.960 but people act like I do. That's so interesting because 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:50.680 as an alienated child, you definitely feel strongly about it. 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.079 I can tell you, as a child of divorce, I too, 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.559 I identify with some part of what you said about 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:59.920 not being able to have any say so. And absolutely 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.640 the parents may have thought they did what was best 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:07.920 for us, but in reality they did what was best 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:09.679 for them and we were just kind of stuck in 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:12.880 the middle. But there's a problem with that also, guys, 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:15.000 is that, you know, we see a lot of kids 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:19.160 who are fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, even seventeen years old who 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.400 are making life decisions for themselves to cut out a 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:25.120 loving relationship with a parent, and we have a court 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:27.840 system currently that's allowing that to happen as well, and 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:33.520 these kids don't have the wherewithal to understand how some 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.720 of those life decisions can really have long term ramifications 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.440 for them going down the road. I felt for Dizzey 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.400 when they came and basically terminated as parental rights, and 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:45.920 my excess tried doing that to me as well, saying 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:48.240 that the girls want their step mom to adopt them, 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:51.080 and I always said, Oh hell no, there's no reason 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:53.680 for that. They don't understand. And if you have a 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.640 parent who he was doing this in order to save 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.520 some child support. Our child support system is so broken 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.680 as it is. Also, parents lose their driver's license. If 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:06.400 they don't pay child support, they can have their wayes Garnish, 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:08.800 you can go to jail. I know parents who have 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:12.480 lost everything with huge amounts of back child support owed 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:15.480 and the courts don't seem to offer any kind of leeway. 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:17.640 And so for some parents that may be the only 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:21.600 way out too, which is really sad. And then to 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:25.040 hold on to that guilt as well well. And then 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.640 the way that Jennifer did it, y'all, I mean it 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:32.400 half a daughter's present and have him sign and then 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:36.640 basically used that to say, see, here's the concrete proof 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:38.560 your dad doesn't want you. He just gave you a way. 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.640 It's like use the kids as Pollos that day. How 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.600 is that healthy for your kids? It's not. But to 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:48.920 your point earlier, these children are making decisions. Jennifer said 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:50.880 she was a child, she was young, they were young, 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.200 and then the reality is it's right, she's right. They 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:56.960 did their best with what they had. WHO DID THEIR BEST? 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:59.440 But it doesn't make it right that. What I'm saying is, 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.880 at their age that was their best decision making skill 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:05.720 that they thought. The problem was she was manipulative with 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:10.040 her the intentionality was felt. I really appreciate the fact 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:15.640 that you are so glass half fool, because, Jennifer, it's 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:18.200 not glass half fool. That is she is. She was 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:23.360 an immature person who was terrible. That was her best decision. 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:25.960 I just said she was manipulative. I'm agreeing with you. 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.440 We're the same page. Actually, no, but I was gonna 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:30.800 add some other adjectives. I don't think she was doing 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:32.720 her best. I don't think that was her doing her 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:36.640 best when she knew that she was literally taking her 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:41.480 children away from their biological father intentionally to keep them 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:43.360 from them for years. I don't think that was her 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:45.640 doing her best. I think that was her being hurtful 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.040 and hateful. She was doing what she felt was best 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:53.360 for her to maintain control with her manipulative mind. You 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:55.760 hit it on the head. She was trying to gain 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.960 control and if you listen to a lot of the 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:02.480 experts like dot the Baker, Dr Harmon and others who 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:04.960 have done a lot of research in this area, they 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.000 actually classify this as a form of family violence as 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:11.440 well as child abuse. Right, because that's a form of 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:15.400 power and control. Right, absolutely, and when I say it's 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.919 her best as well, I think it's just it's necessary 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:22.760 to identify that. People just don't mentally mature right. They 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:25.400 just don't. She was in her mind. She didn't care 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:30.359 to consider anyone additional and poor dizzy, he just signed 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:33.480 away and literally just cut off. It sounds like from 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:38.680 that moment forward my heart broke for dizzy. It did, 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:41.679 because he actually was a father who wanted to be 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:45.720 there and cared about the children in a way that 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:49.520 would have heavily benefited their life throughout their life. And 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.240 the point that he made that was a powerful truth. 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:56.320 At the table, right at Red Table, he said, God, 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.200 to love your children more than you hate your act. 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:01.720 I agree you with willow, though. We need to make 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:06.680 those into shirts right. I played middleman during my parents 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:09.200 divorce because they couldn't be in the same room. If 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:13.040 they put that hatred aside and just said, okay, we've 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:17.199 got three beautiful kids who are struggling and can't do this, 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:19.280 I think life would have been easier for all of 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.119 us and I don't think I would have lost my 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.680 mom in a sense. And I hate fuels so much 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:29.200 more than love and it's so sad and it breaks 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.320 my heart. Truthfully, I wish not to quote a Beatles Song, 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:36.480 but love makes the world go round. I mean it does. Yeah, not, 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:42.399 I completely relate. Yes, all we need is love. It 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:44.880 took me a while to to care a little bit 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:47.280 more about my son's father, right, because we don't have 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:51.359 the best relationship, but once I recognized that he was 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:54.840 needed to create this human that I love, do you 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:57.600 just understand and you just appreciate them for what they 0:18:57.600 --> 0:18:59.960 could contribute to your life? That took a lot of growth. 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.440 Took a lot of growth. Okay, okay, how long did 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:04.399 it take you to get to that? I want to 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:07.360 say about year ten and you start to I think 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:11.119 I started analyze how much work is required to hate someone. Right, 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.000 it's part of just growth overall. It takes a lot 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:17.520 to hold onto. It's a lot of energy to hate. 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:19.679 You thought you didn't like. Yeah, it's just a lot. 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:22.120 It's a lot of energy to maintain. Hey, the one 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.560 thing that you, Caitlin, actually car I don't think you 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:27.679 know this either, that I was an adoptive parent. I 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:31.440 adopted my nephew. He was actually abandoned by his mother 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:34.800 and at the time my brother was not in a 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:37.440 position to take him and so, in order to keep 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:39.560 him out of the system, I adopted him, and so 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:42.280 that's why, when you said Jennifer was doing the best 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:44.119 she could, I was like, yeah, I don't think so, 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:47.320 because the last thing I wanted in my forties was 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:51.280 to adopt a five year old, but in order to 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:53.760 keep him safe, protected and make sure he was able 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:55.440 to go to school and keep him in the family 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:58.280 and out of the system, I made that sacrifice for him. 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:01.480 Now it was interesting because of around year ten eleven, 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:04.720 he started wanting to really be with his dad and 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:06.480 it took us several years, but I was able to 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:09.919 go and get the adoption revoked and my brother and 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:14.040 his wife were able to adopt my nephew, and so 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:17.600 that was some part of an alienation for him, he felt. 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:20.440 And now, interestingly enough, my nephew doesn't talk to me 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:28.400 because they made him believe that I was the wicked witch, crazy. Wow, wow, wow. 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:30.960 It was just a matter of them hiding their truth. 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:33.480 It was like they'd rather hide their truth about what 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:37.280 they didn't do instead of focusing on the truth and 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:39.359 trying to really do what was best for the child. 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:49.120 And so there we go. What moments of the episode 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:54.160 mirrored your own experiences? Carolyn and Caitlin, as you watched, 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:57.240 I saw a lot of similarities until what I went 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:00.320 through and what I talked to other parents about, specially 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:04.159 with some of the false allegations that Alissa had experienced 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:07.560 with teddy trying to do things outside of the court 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:10.639 and having a contract and then having the courts not 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:14.160 recognized the contract. So there are a lot of similarities. 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:17.760 What do you think, Caitlin? I really resided with Teddy's kids. 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:20.720 I'm an alienated sister and I feel for them. I 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:23.320 was close with my siblings. We went through a traumatic 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:26.080 event together and my dad's I helped take care of them, 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:28.040 but I'm their big sister. They look up to me. 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:30.160 I really I felt for them. I know the pain 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:32.200 that they're feeling. I can feel it, I know what 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:34.960 it is. But even with Ashlyn, like when she was 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:37.880 talking about how she internalized the hate that our mom 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:40.480 had for her dad, and it's like, I know how 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:43.359 you feel and I know what you're going through, and 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:45.240 I just I did. I wanted to crawl through the 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:46.920 screen and give her a big old hug and tell 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:50.280 her it's okay. There's more people like you out there 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:53.320 and we just it's almost like all the alienated kids 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:55.160 all need to get together and just have one big 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:58.920 group hub, because I feel like that's what we need right. 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:02.719