Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, hey, what's up, and welcome the let's Red
Speaker 1: table that I'm tracy t row and I'm Kral Pressley
Speaker 1: and we are listen. We're diving in the family dynamics
Speaker 1: once again in this episode, but in a totally new way, uh,
Speaker 1: and you know, successful ways, as red table talk likes
Speaker 1: to do. Today's episode is focused and centered on parenttal alienation,
Speaker 1: which is one parent viciously turning their child against the
Speaker 1: other parents. That is horrible and I just can't even
Speaker 1: imagine that. You know, my parents were divorced when I
Speaker 1: was super young, Carl, so I didn't grow up in
Speaker 1: the household with like my mom and dad, like my
Speaker 1: older siblings. But to hear poor Ashland and her story
Speaker 1: and what happened with her and and dizzy and what
Speaker 1: Jennifer did, I just want to say that, yeah, there
Speaker 1: were times when my mom may have said some things
Speaker 1: that were not necessarily the most positive things to say
Speaker 1: about my dad. However, Comma, she didn't go in like Jennifer. Jennifer,
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on Jennifer? Bless your heart. You know,
Speaker 1: Jennifer starting out with bless her heart. I generally say
Speaker 1: that when I don't know what to say. My bless
Speaker 1: your heart really means that I pray the Lord comes
Speaker 1: and surrounds it. Yeah, that's the southern bless your heart
Speaker 1: means blesh your heart too. No, yeah, it was hard
Speaker 1: to watch her overall, just because I think this season
Speaker 1: the red table talks, so many things with parenting are
Speaker 1: being discussed, the different facets of being a parent, and
Speaker 1: I just I never ever tapped into the parents who
Speaker 1: are truly abusing their power, like really using their words
Speaker 1: to gain their best interests, like just completely tear someone
Speaker 1: else down. I think it's ridiculous. It was hard to watch.
Speaker 1: A long time ago, actually, probably about twenty years now,
Speaker 1: I saw Teddy Rowley at King's dominion. So it was
Speaker 1: hard to watch him be hurt because in my mind
Speaker 1: we are good friends. Okay, so, wait minute, what is
Speaker 1: King's dominion? Kings Dominion is an event park in Richmond, Virginia. So, like,
Speaker 1: you know, six flags, right, it's Virginia's version. And so
Speaker 1: because you saw him, it may kinship to your friends. Okay,
Speaker 1: this in my head. Okay, okay, so one time it
Speaker 1: didn't even speak. One time in Afar, hey, taddy, listen
Speaker 1: and I saw Jaya singing no digity on the on
Speaker 1: the on the episode. But you know, it was hard
Speaker 1: to watch. I will say that what I take from
Speaker 1: what you said is that when you have an alignment
Speaker 1: or fill an affinity for someone, it is hard to
Speaker 1: watch them be mistreated. Jennifer, she didn't have her answer,
Speaker 1: her response, she did not have any remorse. She didn't.
Speaker 1: I mean, dinny owned his ish. Okay, dinny owned his
Speaker 1: dangna Ish. Jennifer not so much. She came up with
Speaker 1: that lame when we were young. Yeah, you know, lack
Speaker 1: of accountabilities and all time high. It's people. People don't care.
Speaker 1: I think she cared about herself. I think she cared
Speaker 1: about trying to stick it to dizzy and that's what
Speaker 1: she did. That's what she did fully. Um. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: difficult to why even again back to tell you, rally
Speaker 1: like he a Samma King's dominion, that is a family part,
Speaker 1: that's a family place. Like this is an accident. So
Speaker 1: it is hard to just see again people abusing their
Speaker 1: power and I think, you know, this episode was a
Speaker 1: clear example. I think people immediately want to say that
Speaker 1: women are the root of all this and women do
Speaker 1: it and they're gonna hold your back. But that's why
Speaker 1: I'm excited about today's episode, because our guests actually had
Speaker 1: an issue with the dad. So you know we're not
Speaker 1: gonna we're not just placing this on women. It is
Speaker 1: not women having an attitude or being rude or whatever
Speaker 1: people may want to say. But yeah, it happens on
Speaker 1: both sides. Well, one thing we know for sure is
Speaker 1: that our episode today includes a phenomenal story of reunited
Speaker 1: and so I can't wait because it's going to be fantastic.
Speaker 1: Our community is our backbone and we love to hear
Speaker 1: from you. We've asked our community what they thought of
Speaker 1: this episode and so many of you related. Here are
Speaker 1: some of your answers. Okay, well, listen. Stephanie Hacox said,
Speaker 1: I haven't spoken or seen my daughter since two thousand
Speaker 1: and eight because of the lies and brainwashing of my
Speaker 1: ex husband. It's horrible. I lost touch with both my
Speaker 1: kids due to my ex's attempt to keep me out
Speaker 1: of their lives. That's it's so heartbreaking. Some of these
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I just I mean, you don't want
Speaker 1: to know that there are people that relate to the
Speaker 1: show as much as you know there are people that
Speaker 1: relate to the show. So we're grateful to you, Stephanie,
Speaker 1: that you shared and we're hoping that you have reconciliation,
Speaker 1: because that's just hard. Dana. George Orensby said, I know
Speaker 1: about this topic all too well. It's been the reason
Speaker 1: I pledged that, if my relationship ended, I would never
Speaker 1: speak negatively about or keep my children's father from them.
Speaker 1: I remember how hurtful it was as a child. Dana,
Speaker 1: good for you. We are giving you two thumbs up
Speaker 1: on that. Rachel Smith said, I so feel this. My
Speaker 1: ex and his parents have kept my daughter away. Oh
Speaker 1: that's unfortunate with the parents involved. Right last time I
Speaker 1: saw her she was seven. She's now sixteen. Pivotal years,
Speaker 1: pivotal you. She's a completely different child from seven to sixteen. Rachel,
Speaker 1: we send our loving, positive energy to you and Rob
Speaker 1: Woodburn said. I have been alienated from my seventeen year
Speaker 1: old daughter since she was eleven. Love your children more
Speaker 1: than you hate your ex. Gives me hope. I look
Speaker 1: forward to the day I see her again. Rob, we
Speaker 1: hope for you that that comes sooner rather than later
Speaker 1: for both you and your seventeen year old daughter. Thank you,
Speaker 1: community for sharing and being transparent. Absolutely, and keep those
Speaker 1: great comments coming. We love your engagement with us. We're
Speaker 1: going to take a quick break, but when we get
Speaker 1: back will be joined by two incredible guests from our
Speaker 1: Red Table Talk Community and we're bringing to ourtc community
Speaker 1: members to our virtual red table today who actually are
Speaker 1: mother and daughter. That's the first. That's a let's red table.
Speaker 1: That first. I love it. I have the honor of
Speaker 1: introducing Caroline, who is the mother. Caroline McLeod is a
Speaker 1: mother of three, but she's been alienated from two of
Speaker 1: her children for the past ten years. After enduring years
Speaker 1: of domestic violence from the father of her children, she
Speaker 1: filed for divorce. Her ex husband used her struggles with
Speaker 1: alcohol addiction against her in court, gaining full custody of
Speaker 1: their children and slowly turning them against her. Caroline is
Speaker 1: here to share her story and shine a light on
Speaker 1: this epidemic. Thank you for joining us on let's Red
Speaker 1: table that, Caroline. Thank you for having me. Caitlin O'Neill
Speaker 1: thought her alm was choosing to not be a part
Speaker 1: of her life, but after six years of being alienated
Speaker 1: from her mom, she learned the truth. Her Dad had
Speaker 1: been lying to her and her two siblings for years.
Speaker 1: So caitlin built up the courage to reach out to
Speaker 1: her mom and they have been reconnected ever since. But
Speaker 1: now CAITLIN has no relationship with her two siblings, who
Speaker 1: are still under her dad's influence. So we are grateful
Speaker 1: that you both could join us so we can share
Speaker 1: both you and your mom's perspectives on this experience. So
Speaker 1: thank you, welcome and thanks for being a part of
Speaker 1: this with us. Thank you for having me. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much to both of you. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: WE'RE gonna kick it off by going ahead and talking
Speaker 1: about the actual full episode. This is the part of
Speaker 1: the show where we reveal which moments made us pause, rewind,
Speaker 1: listen again and just say what. Wait, what? When gammy
Speaker 1: revealed they are being alienated from a family member and
Speaker 1: they didn't know why, Gammy said, we've had to deal
Speaker 1: with it. This person didn't want her child to be
Speaker 1: a part of our family, and it was. It was
Speaker 1: devastating and we don't even know why. We don't even
Speaker 1: know what happened. It's the niece, it's the cousin and
Speaker 1: they're out of the family. That's hard parental alienation is
Speaker 1: one of those things, like domestic violence, we all know
Speaker 1: somebody who's been affected by it in one way or another.
Speaker 1: Many times we may not know what the word is
Speaker 1: that they're experiencing, but yeah, it's my experience that a
Speaker 1: lot of people have experienced this same thing and there's
Speaker 1: such a revelation to when I talked to so many
Speaker 1: different parents across the country about they finally feel like
Speaker 1: they've got a name to what they've been experiencing for
Speaker 1: two years, three years, five years, ten years, and so
Speaker 1: it helps that to give them some validation as well.
Speaker 1: And having the name makes all the differences, like hey,
Speaker 1: I know what this is and be I know now
Speaker 1: that it has a name or term, I'm not alone, right,
Speaker 1: and you can start to kind of dissect it, right,
Speaker 1: what are the pieces? Am I playing a part? Is
Speaker 1: it me or and then you can also cannot, as
Speaker 1: Tracy would say, affirm yourself and say no, this actually
Speaker 1: is not me, it's not only me, it's not all
Speaker 1: my fault, my responsibility. With dizzy was one of those
Speaker 1: parents who, in my opinion, was a victim of a
Speaker 1: lot of what was going on and you know, he
Speaker 1: straight up took responsibility for his actions and I think
Speaker 1: his parents. We do hold on to a lot of
Speaker 1: that guilt and it's really hard to let go of
Speaker 1: the guilt. But once you realize that you're not crazy,
Speaker 1: your reality is not being distorted by all of this,
Speaker 1: then you can start to see through a lot of
Speaker 1: the abuse that is currently going on and start to realize,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I really was a victim and a
Speaker 1: lot of this, and I do think he was a victim,
Speaker 1: and just as much as his daughter was. But he
Speaker 1: wanted to carry that guilt, which is sad in itself
Speaker 1: as well. M Hm. That was sad because for Ashland,
Speaker 1: she literally internalized what her mother said. Right, she would
Speaker 1: a bad things about him. My first feeling was, oh
Speaker 1: my God, she's saying bad things about me because it's
Speaker 1: part of me, right. So I would internalize all these things,
Speaker 1: Jennifer's negativity toward dizzy. She's like, well, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: he's a part of me, so if what you're saying
Speaker 1: is negative about him, what you're saying is negative about
Speaker 1: me too. And she literally made those be about her.
Speaker 1: It really affected her self esteem, her identity. She had
Speaker 1: a lot of different issues that was just based on
Speaker 1: what her mother said about her dad. And then, interestingly enough,
Speaker 1: Jada thought, wait a second, mom, should you have alienated
Speaker 1: Me From My Dad? And I thought that this was
Speaker 1: such an important part. This was a fantastic, distinguishable moment
Speaker 1: for me that Gammy made sure that she told not
Speaker 1: only Jada but the world that Jada's Dad may have
Speaker 1: had questionable decisions, but he wasn't a bad father and
Speaker 1: even though when their parents, ants or x is involved,
Speaker 1: they may not have the best parenting skills, but that
Speaker 1: doesn't make them be bad people and that you should
Speaker 1: be alienated from them just because they may let you
Speaker 1: stay up later eat cake for breakfast. Right, that's a
Speaker 1: totally different animal. Right, all right. Well, then there's alienation
Speaker 1: and there's like protection. Right, there may be some instances
Speaker 1: where you need to keep a child away from a
Speaker 1: parent for a protection instance situation for themselves or yourself,
Speaker 1: but the alienation, I think, is the single sided control
Speaker 1: that this episode helps me kind of point out and
Speaker 1: really identifying and understand. Let's tap into the story of
Speaker 1: Ashlan's mom letting Ashlyn meet dizzy just so he would
Speaker 1: sign away his parental rights. My Kid's Stepdad telling me,
Speaker 1: don't worry, I'll make sure she never takes your children
Speaker 1: away from you again. And the minute the papers were
Speaker 1: signed and the car doors were shut and everybody drove off,
Speaker 1: that was the last time I saw I thought that
Speaker 1: was so manipulative. Caitlin and Caroline, let's hear from you
Speaker 1: on this. As an alienated child, my dad, I know,
Speaker 1: pushed for my step mom to adopt me. That breaks
Speaker 1: my heart. My mom is my mom. She carried me
Speaker 1: for nine months. I'm part of her and I would
Speaker 1: never want that. I felt for Ashlyn. She's losing a
Speaker 1: piece of her and even with like when she was
Speaker 1: talking about how she internalized what her mom said, I
Speaker 1: did too. My Dad always was constantly putting me down
Speaker 1: and comparing me to my mom. Oh, you're a liar,
Speaker 1: just like her, oh you look just like or Oh,
Speaker 1: why do you act like her, and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: but I didn't know any better. That's how I was raised,
Speaker 1: that's how I was taught. I was with her until
Speaker 1: I was ten before I got taken away. So I
Speaker 1: was like for ten years. This is who I became,
Speaker 1: and now you're telling me I'm not an okay person. Okaitlyn,
Speaker 1: how did that make you fail? Oh my gosh, I
Speaker 1: felt like I became worthless, like I didn't have a voice. And, truthfully,
Speaker 1: through all of what I've been through, I learned I
Speaker 1: don't have voice. The voice that I had was gone.
Speaker 1: You got taken away, and I don't think a lot
Speaker 1: of people realize that. Is that when even just a
Speaker 1: normal divorce, they're trying to do what's right for the kids,
Speaker 1: but they don't ever take what the kids say or
Speaker 1: they tell the kids that this is what they're gonna
Speaker 1: do and they're gonna use big words and we don't
Speaker 1: understand that. I think really truthfully, everything needs to be
Speaker 1: about the kids and what they need and what they want,
Speaker 1: and I just I'm firm on that. They should have
Speaker 1: a voice. They should decide who they want to live with,
Speaker 1: who they want to see. Even though my siblings and
Speaker 1: I we don't see each other and we don't talk.
Speaker 1: I know there are times where I don't see Ey
Speaker 1: die with them and I don't have a say for them,
Speaker 1: but people act like I do. That's so interesting because
Speaker 1: as an alienated child, you definitely feel strongly about it.
Speaker 1: I can tell you, as a child of divorce, I too,
Speaker 1: I identify with some part of what you said about
Speaker 1: not being able to have any say so. And absolutely
Speaker 1: the parents may have thought they did what was best
Speaker 1: for us, but in reality they did what was best
Speaker 1: for them and we were just kind of stuck in
Speaker 1: the middle. But there's a problem with that also, guys,
Speaker 1: is that, you know, we see a lot of kids
Speaker 1: who are fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, even seventeen years old who
Speaker 1: are making life decisions for themselves to cut out a
Speaker 1: loving relationship with a parent, and we have a court
Speaker 1: system currently that's allowing that to happen as well, and
Speaker 1: these kids don't have the wherewithal to understand how some
Speaker 1: of those life decisions can really have long term ramifications
Speaker 1: for them going down the road. I felt for Dizzey
Speaker 1: when they came and basically terminated as parental rights, and
Speaker 1: my excess tried doing that to me as well, saying
Speaker 1: that the girls want their step mom to adopt them,
Speaker 1: and I always said, Oh hell no, there's no reason
Speaker 1: for that. They don't understand. And if you have a
Speaker 1: parent who he was doing this in order to save
Speaker 1: some child support. Our child support system is so broken
Speaker 1: as it is. Also, parents lose their driver's license. If
Speaker 1: they don't pay child support, they can have their wayes Garnish,
Speaker 1: you can go to jail. I know parents who have
Speaker 1: lost everything with huge amounts of back child support owed
Speaker 1: and the courts don't seem to offer any kind of leeway.
Speaker 1: And so for some parents that may be the only
Speaker 1: way out too, which is really sad. And then to
Speaker 1: hold on to that guilt as well well. And then
Speaker 1: the way that Jennifer did it, y'all, I mean it
Speaker 1: half a daughter's present and have him sign and then
Speaker 1: basically used that to say, see, here's the concrete proof
Speaker 1: your dad doesn't want you. He just gave you a way.
Speaker 1: It's like use the kids as Pollos that day. How
Speaker 1: is that healthy for your kids? It's not. But to
Speaker 1: your point earlier, these children are making decisions. Jennifer said
Speaker 1: she was a child, she was young, they were young,
Speaker 1: and then the reality is it's right, she's right. They
Speaker 1: did their best with what they had. WHO DID THEIR BEST?
Speaker 1: But it doesn't make it right that. What I'm saying is,
Speaker 1: at their age that was their best decision making skill
Speaker 1: that they thought. The problem was she was manipulative with
Speaker 1: her the intentionality was felt. I really appreciate the fact
Speaker 1: that you are so glass half fool, because, Jennifer, it's
Speaker 1: not glass half fool. That is she is. She was
Speaker 1: an immature person who was terrible. That was her best decision.
Speaker 1: I just said she was manipulative. I'm agreeing with you.
Speaker 1: We're the same page. Actually, no, but I was gonna
Speaker 1: add some other adjectives. I don't think she was doing
Speaker 1: her best. I don't think that was her doing her
Speaker 1: best when she knew that she was literally taking her
Speaker 1: children away from their biological father intentionally to keep them
Speaker 1: from them for years. I don't think that was her
Speaker 1: doing her best. I think that was her being hurtful
Speaker 1: and hateful. She was doing what she felt was best
Speaker 1: for her to maintain control with her manipulative mind. You
Speaker 1: hit it on the head. She was trying to gain
Speaker 1: control and if you listen to a lot of the
Speaker 1: experts like dot the Baker, Dr Harmon and others who
Speaker 1: have done a lot of research in this area, they
Speaker 1: actually classify this as a form of family violence as
Speaker 1: well as child abuse. Right, because that's a form of
Speaker 1: power and control. Right, absolutely, and when I say it's
Speaker 1: her best as well, I think it's just it's necessary
Speaker 1: to identify that. People just don't mentally mature right. They
Speaker 1: just don't. She was in her mind. She didn't care
Speaker 1: to consider anyone additional and poor dizzy, he just signed
Speaker 1: away and literally just cut off. It sounds like from
Speaker 1: that moment forward my heart broke for dizzy. It did,
Speaker 1: because he actually was a father who wanted to be
Speaker 1: there and cared about the children in a way that
Speaker 1: would have heavily benefited their life throughout their life. And
Speaker 1: the point that he made that was a powerful truth.
Speaker 1: At the table, right at Red Table, he said, God,
Speaker 1: to love your children more than you hate your act.
Speaker 1: I agree you with willow, though. We need to make
Speaker 1: those into shirts right. I played middleman during my parents
Speaker 1: divorce because they couldn't be in the same room. If
Speaker 1: they put that hatred aside and just said, okay, we've
Speaker 1: got three beautiful kids who are struggling and can't do this,
Speaker 1: I think life would have been easier for all of
Speaker 1: us and I don't think I would have lost my
Speaker 1: mom in a sense. And I hate fuels so much
Speaker 1: more than love and it's so sad and it breaks
Speaker 1: my heart. Truthfully, I wish not to quote a Beatles Song,
Speaker 1: but love makes the world go round. I mean it does. Yeah, not,
Speaker 1: I completely relate. Yes, all we need is love. It
Speaker 1: took me a while to to care a little bit
Speaker 1: more about my son's father, right, because we don't have
Speaker 1: the best relationship, but once I recognized that he was
Speaker 1: needed to create this human that I love, do you
Speaker 1: just understand and you just appreciate them for what they
Speaker 1: could contribute to your life? That took a lot of growth.
Speaker 1: Took a lot of growth. Okay, okay, how long did
Speaker 1: it take you to get to that? I want to
Speaker 1: say about year ten and you start to I think
Speaker 1: I started analyze how much work is required to hate someone. Right,
Speaker 1: it's part of just growth overall. It takes a lot
Speaker 1: to hold onto. It's a lot of energy to hate.
Speaker 1: You thought you didn't like. Yeah, it's just a lot.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of energy to maintain. Hey, the one
Speaker 1: thing that you, Caitlin, actually car I don't think you
Speaker 1: know this either, that I was an adoptive parent. I
Speaker 1: adopted my nephew. He was actually abandoned by his mother
Speaker 1: and at the time my brother was not in a
Speaker 1: position to take him and so, in order to keep
Speaker 1: him out of the system, I adopted him, and so
Speaker 1: that's why, when you said Jennifer was doing the best
Speaker 1: she could, I was like, yeah, I don't think so,
Speaker 1: because the last thing I wanted in my forties was
Speaker 1: to adopt a five year old, but in order to
Speaker 1: keep him safe, protected and make sure he was able
Speaker 1: to go to school and keep him in the family
Speaker 1: and out of the system, I made that sacrifice for him.
Speaker 1: Now it was interesting because of around year ten eleven,
Speaker 1: he started wanting to really be with his dad and
Speaker 1: it took us several years, but I was able to
Speaker 1: go and get the adoption revoked and my brother and
Speaker 1: his wife were able to adopt my nephew, and so
Speaker 1: that was some part of an alienation for him, he felt.
Speaker 1: And now, interestingly enough, my nephew doesn't talk to me
Speaker 1: because they made him believe that I was the wicked witch, crazy. Wow, wow, wow.
Speaker 1: It was just a matter of them hiding their truth.
Speaker 1: It was like they'd rather hide their truth about what
Speaker 1: they didn't do instead of focusing on the truth and
Speaker 1: trying to really do what was best for the child.
Speaker 1: And so there we go. What moments of the episode
Speaker 1: mirrored your own experiences? Carolyn and Caitlin, as you watched,
Speaker 1: I saw a lot of similarities until what I went
Speaker 1: through and what I talked to other parents about, specially
Speaker 1: with some of the false allegations that Alissa had experienced
Speaker 1: with teddy trying to do things outside of the court
Speaker 1: and having a contract and then having the courts not
Speaker 1: recognized the contract. So there are a lot of similarities.
Speaker 1: What do you think, Caitlin? I really resided with Teddy's kids.
Speaker 1: I'm an alienated sister and I feel for them. I
Speaker 1: was close with my siblings. We went through a traumatic
Speaker 1: event together and my dad's I helped take care of them,
Speaker 1: but I'm their big sister. They look up to me.
Speaker 1: I really I felt for them. I know the pain
Speaker 1: that they're feeling. I can feel it, I know what
Speaker 1: it is. But even with Ashlyn, like when she was
Speaker 1: talking about how she internalized the hate that our mom
Speaker 1: had for her dad, and it's like, I know how
Speaker 1: you feel and I know what you're going through, and
Speaker 1: I just I did. I wanted to crawl through the
Speaker 1: screen and give her a big old hug and tell
Speaker 1: her it's okay. There's more people like you out there
Speaker 1: and we just it's almost like all the alienated kids
Speaker 1: all need to get together and just have one big
Speaker 1: group hub, because I feel like that's what we need right.
Speaker 1: Are there any chanizations or groups, or even like social
Speaker 1: media groups or anything that you participate in or belong to? CAITLIN,
Speaker 1: there's a few people that I'm friends with, like on Facebook,
Speaker 1: that are alienated kids and I know I talked to them.
Speaker 1: I'm not really a part of any group because a
Speaker 1: lot of alienated kids we don't like to talk about
Speaker 1: what happened to us. There's trauma to it and it's
Speaker 1: hard to talk about it. It puts us back in
Speaker 1: that fight mode and I know personally I'll put myself
Speaker 1: back into that mode sometimes. But but, like you said,
Speaker 1: you may not want to talk about it and then
Speaker 1: I tracy, I've shared this with you too, like I had, instance,
Speaker 1: I was somewhat alienated aunt. But to Caitlin's point, I
Speaker 1: was a kid during the process. So my brother had
Speaker 1: a daughter and then their family things just grow apart
Speaker 1: and by the time I got grown it was like
Speaker 1: double Dutch. How do I jump in here and become
Speaker 1: family again right when we used to be close? But
Speaker 1: I was a kid and so it's it's different, even
Speaker 1: not just brother, sister, mother child, but like aunt or right.
Speaker 1: How do you RECON act after all that time? Right?
Speaker 1: How do you reconnect? Caroline? What led up to your
Speaker 1: alienation and how did you attempt to process or cope
Speaker 1: with what was happening? Sure, so, I was in an
Speaker 1: abusive relationship for almost ten years with at the father
Speaker 1: of my children. I have three kids. There was a
Speaker 1: lot of verbal abuse, there was some documented domestic violence
Speaker 1: as well. This was the third time that I had
Speaker 1: actually filed for divorce because I found out that when
Speaker 1: I was in the hospital with our newborn son, that
Speaker 1: my ex husband was actually cheating on me. And during
Speaker 1: our marriage I was a recovering alcoholic for eight years
Speaker 1: and I relapsed going through the divorce, the stress being
Speaker 1: kind of pretty much a single mom during most of
Speaker 1: the divorce with a newborn, a two year old and
Speaker 1: Caitlin was eight at the time. And then, as alcoholics,
Speaker 1: we make some bad decisions. I found myself in another
Speaker 1: abusive relationship, but I certainly was willing to get the
Speaker 1: help that I needed. As parents, we absolutely make mistakes.
Speaker 1: I'm not a perfect parent. I have my demons. I
Speaker 1: have dealt with my demons and I have tried to
Speaker 1: work through my demons, but my ex husband used that
Speaker 1: against me. He was able to get social services involved.
Speaker 1: We had a dependency in act case opened up against
Speaker 1: me for my alcoholism. Primarily I lost my home during
Speaker 1: that time, I lost my business, I lost my children
Speaker 1: and one by one, my kids went off like a
Speaker 1: light switch. Nobody wanted to listen to me about the
Speaker 1: documented abuse. At one point, while we were going through
Speaker 1: our divorce proceeding, he actually came after me with a
Speaker 1: baseball bat in front of my children and he was
Speaker 1: charged with child endangerment from the county that we lived in.
Speaker 1: They overlooked that. They overlooked the fact that he had
Speaker 1: violated approbation with another D U I. But because I
Speaker 1: was the alcoholic who openly admitted and I was a
Speaker 1: mom right, I was the bad guy and so immediately
Speaker 1: they gave custody of my children to them. My daughter,
Speaker 1: my younger daughter, not Caitlin, but her younger sister, Brianna.
Speaker 1: She came into a supervisor visit with me and stood
Speaker 1: in front of her dad and told me, in front
Speaker 1: of the person who was a supervising our visit. She
Speaker 1: told me that I was dead to her and I
Speaker 1: was no longer her mommy and I tried everything I
Speaker 1: could to hold back those tears. There was a time
Speaker 1: when we were trying to do some therapy together and
Speaker 1: she's walking away with her step mom and she turns
Speaker 1: around and kind of waves at me, and that was
Speaker 1: really the last time that I saw and that was
Speaker 1: ten years now. My son I was able to have
Speaker 1: a little bit longer after the case closed, but even
Speaker 1: during the case Caitlin went off like a light switch
Speaker 1: at as well. She was angry at me. I don't
Speaker 1: know what they were being told, but Brian won't seem
Speaker 1: to be the only one who was willing to keep
Speaker 1: coming to see me and, like I said, he stuck
Speaker 1: around for about a year afterwards. But I've remarried. I
Speaker 1: got sober during that time. I'll have ten years of
Speaker 1: sobriety actually on the seventeenth of this month. Thank you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you. I don't know how I quite did that
Speaker 1: one going through all of everything I went through, but
Speaker 1: absolute grace and sheer grit. I can tell you she
Speaker 1: is a superhero. She is my hero and I will
Speaker 1: tell this to her to the day I die. If
Speaker 1: I could become half the woman that she becomes, I
Speaker 1: will be great in life. I'm not kidding. My mom
Speaker 1: is my hero and my superhero and I love her
Speaker 1: to die. I'M gonna put that out there. Caroline. How
Speaker 1: does that make you feel hearing that? To go from
Speaker 1: the light switch being turned off to hear that now? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of my daughter. I'm proud of her
Speaker 1: as well as the other children who are willing to
Speaker 1: come forward and start telling their stories. I'm just a mom,
Speaker 1: I'm just a mom. That's all I am, Um, but
Speaker 1: it really touches my heart and it truly humbles me
Speaker 1: because I talked to so many parents around the world
Speaker 1: and the one thing that we always hold on to
Speaker 1: is that hope that one day, one day, they'll reach
Speaker 1: out to us, you know, and I got my miracle
Speaker 1: with Caitlin and Disney got his miracle his daughter, but
Speaker 1: there's so many other parents who aren't getting their miracles,
Speaker 1: so many kids who are just holding onto that anger
Speaker 1: and those lies and yeah, it just it breaks my heart.
Speaker 1: It really breaks my heart. I hope that more kids
Speaker 1: can come forward like Caitlyn and Ashlyn and reunite with
Speaker 1: their parents, and it will happen I'm confident you sharing
Speaker 1: your stories, that this will help encourage and empower, more over,
Speaker 1: people to share their stories and find their strength and yours.
Speaker 1: And let me just say that you were living in
Speaker 1: your authenticity, even at the time when you were at
Speaker 1: your lowest, and that was used against you because mothers.
Speaker 1: You said, I'm just a mom. Mothers are held to
Speaker 1: a different standard than Dad's when it comes to parenting,
Speaker 1: and it's a dog on shame. But that is a
Speaker 1: fact and I don't have any statistics to back that up,
Speaker 1: but tell the listeners fight me, because I'm telling you
Speaker 1: it's the fact mothers are held to a different standard,
Speaker 1: the fact that your ex husban men had all those
Speaker 1: documented things and was still able to use literally a
Speaker 1: disease that you were working through against you. It's just
Speaker 1: a dog on shame. That part, that part. These stories
Speaker 1: are key. You guys are saving lives. CAITLIN. What was
Speaker 1: life like at Your Dad's house while you were alienated
Speaker 1: from your mom? I mean literally. I believe that there's
Speaker 1: probably some people out there who don't even know that
Speaker 1: this is really what they're going through. So what was
Speaker 1: going through your head as a child in this unimaginable situation.
Speaker 1: Truthfully angry. I was so mad. I was told that
Speaker 1: my mom was going to rehab and that we would
Speaker 1: get to see her and that everything would go back
Speaker 1: to normal. I'd have a say again and I'd have
Speaker 1: a voice, and so I was like, okay, cool, mom's
Speaker 1: gonna go fix yourself, she's gonna become a good mom,
Speaker 1: we're gonna have a great time from a great life.
Speaker 1: Everything's gonna be perfect. I finally have this picture perfect
Speaker 1: family that I vote just wanted. And a month turned
Speaker 1: into two months, two months turned into three, three turned
Speaker 1: into six, and then six turned into a year and
Speaker 1: I was done. I was done. I was like, nope, okay, fine,
Speaker 1: you obviously don't care enough to come back, then you
Speaker 1: don't deserve to be in my life. And so that
Speaker 1: light switch just went off, and it really did. I
Speaker 1: told my friends I didn't have a mom, but she died.
Speaker 1: It was easier to tell them that she was dead,
Speaker 1: because at least then I can mourn the mom that
Speaker 1: I had and not miss out on the mom I'm
Speaker 1: not having. But not only did I missed out on
Speaker 1: not having a mom, but I missed out on not
Speaker 1: having my best friend. We're close, we're really close, and
Speaker 1: that's my best friend and I can finally say that
Speaker 1: anything out. If you asked me that a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago, I probably wouldn't have said that. But but
Speaker 1: my mom missed out on my first heart break and
Speaker 1: my first love and going home, coming dress shopping and prom.
Speaker 1: And you know, the biggest one for me is I
Speaker 1: graduated with high honors in high school and stuff like
Speaker 1: that and I was really proud of myself and my
Speaker 1: mom missed out on my graduation and that's big for parents,
Speaker 1: having their kids graduate high school. In your mind, you
Speaker 1: were thinking that Caroline was choosing not to come to
Speaker 1: you and not that she was being kept from you.
Speaker 1: So your anger was directed towards her. Is that right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so my anger was more directed towards my mom and
Speaker 1: I more felt like she doesn't care, why should I care?
Speaker 1: Type of feeling. What's Your Dad telling you? Things? He
Speaker 1: was kind of saying he was. He's like that little
Speaker 1: pair key in your shoulder. Oh she's not doing this
Speaker 1: because she's off having the time of her life. There
Speaker 1: was one point I needed my social security for school
Speaker 1: and we couldn't find it, and so I asked my dad.
Speaker 1: I was like well, Hey, can you ask my mom
Speaker 1: if she has it, and I got told that my
Speaker 1: mom said that she doesn't have it, that I am
Speaker 1: an adult and to tough fuck it out and go
Speaker 1: figure it out myself. Did you ever have a conversation
Speaker 1: with Caroline about that? I did, and we figured everything out.
Speaker 1: How the air has been cleared over everything my dad
Speaker 1: has said, and she didn't have it and she straight
Speaker 1: up was like I don't have it. And granted now
Speaker 1: I have a new one and stuff like that, but
Speaker 1: it was still the fact of you told me I'm
Speaker 1: an adult and to go figure it out. Okay, out,
Speaker 1: that hurts. Okay, well then, you know what, if you're
Speaker 1: going to tell me to be an adult about it,
Speaker 1: then I'm gonna go be petty on facebook and make
Speaker 1: things public and write this whole nasty note to you
Speaker 1: and to basically telling you to go l off. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and some of those notes I didn't even write myself.
Speaker 1: My stepmom had access to into my facebook and would
Speaker 1: post these things when they would get into fight. Not
Speaker 1: The stepmom helping fuel the fire, stirring the book. Yes,
Speaker 1: you know, let's stop there for a second. I have
Speaker 1: to stop there because I'm giving real side eye to
Speaker 1: the step mom, like what the heck, because at what
Speaker 1: point the Caitlin, you're just a kid, you are in
Speaker 1: the house, you are living what you believe is your
Speaker 1: the best life, King Your Mom's gone, you don't know
Speaker 1: what that is. Your Dad's feeding your small season doubt
Speaker 1: and you're like, well, I'm gonna believe because it's my dad.
Speaker 1: But at what point did you realize he's lying? Or
Speaker 1: and she's and his girlfriend's involved, like how did that
Speaker 1: come to be? And don't get me wrong, I did
Speaker 1: not live my best life with my dad. I lived
Speaker 1: your Cinderella Little Story. Me and my siblings did. Her
Speaker 1: kids didn't do much. They got away with murder. So
Speaker 1: we always were cleaning and always in trouble and I
Speaker 1: didn't have a social life. I had to be there
Speaker 1: to make sure if someone was there to watch my
Speaker 1: siblings and stuff like that. And so I never had
Speaker 1: a childhood. I got it taken away and it literally went,
Speaker 1: you're right, right out of my hands. But to answer
Speaker 1: your guys question, I really saw it when I asked
Speaker 1: to have my mom at my graduation. I said, I
Speaker 1: think it's fair that I at least can have that.
Speaker 1: And I got told that it's not fair to my sister,
Speaker 1: that my mom has no right to be there, and
Speaker 1: not only that, but she has no right to be
Speaker 1: there because she didn't help put me through high school.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, okay, that still doesn't matter, that shouldn't matter,
Speaker 1: and so I started to kind of see through those lies,
Speaker 1: that this was about what he wanted. Not even can
Speaker 1: you even call her? Asked her? Like he didn't even
Speaker 1: give you. Okay, yeah, there's one piece to all of
Speaker 1: this that's missing. So in the final orders of the
Speaker 1: dependency and neglect case they put in there that mother
Speaker 1: will not contact the girls until the girls could reach
Speaker 1: out to contact mom first. So he used that as
Speaker 1: a full fledged restraining order against me and the girls.
Speaker 1: So he kep. He was the total gatekeeper and would
Speaker 1: not allow those girls to reach out to me. They
Speaker 1: were trapped, they couldn't call, they didn't even know how
Speaker 1: to get in touch with me, and even if they
Speaker 1: had asked, I'm not so sure he would have followed
Speaker 1: through with their wishes. Yeah, I'm pretty sure he probably
Speaker 1: never asked about the social security card or anything like that.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't. But I totally
Speaker 1: forgot that was in the divorce case that we were
Speaker 1: supposed to contact you first. I totally forgot that was
Speaker 1: in there. But yeah, so I finally saw through the
Speaker 1: FRI kid, probably at eighteen, and he actually kicked me
Speaker 1: out of the home, and so that's when we kind
Speaker 1: of reunited. What. Yeah, wait, wait, wait, wait, so you
Speaker 1: and Ashland almost have like mirror images experiences. Yeah, kicked
Speaker 1: you out over what, though, because was it a story
Speaker 1: of he couldn't control you any longer? It wasn't even that.
Speaker 1: It was because of my boyfriend at the time, who's
Speaker 1: my husband now. He didn't like my husband, he didn't
Speaker 1: like my boyfriend, and so he told me because I
Speaker 1: wasn't there one day, probably because he was kind, but
Speaker 1: that's true, though. He couldn't control you any long and
Speaker 1: you know, and you are totally right, he couldn't control
Speaker 1: me and I was finally I found love in a
Speaker 1: different spot and it wasn't coming for him and I
Speaker 1: think he felt inferior with my boyfriend, who's my husband.
Speaker 1: So you two have thankfully reunited, which I think is
Speaker 1: still really inspiring for other people who may be listening
Speaker 1: and dealing with the alienation and their own families. Caitlin,
Speaker 1: can you tell us how you and your mom finally reconnected?
Speaker 1: I was supposed to go to Utah for school, and
Speaker 1: so I was like, if I can make it till
Speaker 1: then to go to school and Utah, I'm booking it.
Speaker 1: I'm never coming back. This is it. By CIA Adios.
Speaker 1: And then I got kicked out and I was like, okay, well,
Speaker 1: now I'm lost and I have nowhere to go. Thankfully,
Speaker 1: my boyfriend took me in. I owe him my life
Speaker 1: for that till this day, and gave me a place
Speaker 1: to stay. And then I wasn't getting stuff from my
Speaker 1: dad and so I was like, okay, I don't know
Speaker 1: what to do, and then I called my mom and
Speaker 1: I figured, what's the worst that's going to happen? How
Speaker 1: did you have the information you needed to contact your mom? Thankfully,
Speaker 1: I grew up in the age where cell phones really
Speaker 1: were aren't. Smartphones really weren't thing just yet. So they
Speaker 1: like drilled their phone numbers into my head and I
Speaker 1: am so thankful that my mom hadn't changed her phone
Speaker 1: number and like some of the fifteen somebody years, because
Speaker 1: I was able to get in contact with her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and sent her a text message saying hey, mom, it's Katie,
Speaker 1: I need you, and she's like can I call you?
Speaker 1: I was like yes, call me and we talked on
Speaker 1: the phone for I don't know two hours, and I
Speaker 1: just baaled. I was like, okay, this is my life
Speaker 1: and I finally have my mom back, and then we
Speaker 1: went and saw each other the next day and it
Speaker 1: was like nothing ever skipped a beat. Caroline. What was
Speaker 1: it like getting that text from Caitlin? It was late
Speaker 1: at night, around ten fifteen or so. Wasn't quite asleep yet,
Speaker 1: but wasn't really awake, and I hear my phone go
Speaker 1: off and between the darkness and the blurried sleep eyes,
Speaker 1: I read and I read rember what it said. It
Speaker 1: said Hi, Mommy, this is Caitlin. I really need you,
Speaker 1: and I started hitting my husband. I'm like, Randy, it's Caitlin.
Speaker 1: Oh my God, Oh my God, it's Caitlin. What do
Speaker 1: I do? And he will ask her if you can
Speaker 1: text her. I like, Oh my God, yes, I'll text her,
Speaker 1: I'll text her right now, and so I texted her
Speaker 1: and I said can I call you and she said
Speaker 1: of course, and of course. Like Caitlin said, we talked
Speaker 1: on the phone for, I don't know, a good couple
Speaker 1: to three hours and an ugly crying, like I am
Speaker 1: now almost I'm dizzy, said, with Ashland there was a
Speaker 1: lot of ugly crying involved as well, and I said
Speaker 1: when can I see you? And she said how about tomorrow?
Speaker 1: And I said absolutely, and so I went and I
Speaker 1: picked her up and she ran to me as fast
Speaker 1: as she possibly could and she got in the car
Speaker 1: and I said, I only have two requests. I said one,
Speaker 1: I don't want to be down here because I don't
Speaker 1: want to run into anybody that we might know. I
Speaker 1: said I might rather go back up north where we live,
Speaker 1: and I said number two, I won't ask any questions
Speaker 1: unless you want me to answer anything. And we left
Speaker 1: it at that and I put boundaries in place. I
Speaker 1: told everybody, let's just see how things go. I asked her,
Speaker 1: I said she want to see grandma? She goes yes,
Speaker 1: so she got to see your grandma for the first
Speaker 1: time in six years. I said you want to see
Speaker 1: where I live? She goes yes, I want to see
Speaker 1: where you live, and so she got to come over
Speaker 1: and see where I live and I said, do you
Speaker 1: want to have dinner with us, and she said yes, please,
Speaker 1: can I have dinner with you? I took her clothes
Speaker 1: shopping because she didn't have any clothes, she didn't have anything,
Speaker 1: and so dropped her off at her now husband's place,
Speaker 1: where he lived with his parents, and gave him a
Speaker 1: big hug and thanked him for helping to reunite us
Speaker 1: as well, and that was the first twenty four hours
Speaker 1: of US reuniting. I'm sorry, I'm right. No, it's wonderful.
Speaker 1: It's such a wonderfully heartwarming story and I have to
Speaker 1: applaud you because, Caroline, I don't know if I had
Speaker 1: been in your position, if I would have been able
Speaker 1: to maintain the constraint that you had, because I would
Speaker 1: have just said, okay, I don't care where you are,
Speaker 1: I'm coming right now, I need to see you, I
Speaker 1: need to hug your neck. And so the fact that
Speaker 1: you guys talked on the phone for hours and then
Speaker 1: you said, okay, I'm gonna come tomorrow. Were you able
Speaker 1: to get any sleep? No, I don't think so, Caitlyn,
Speaker 1: what about you? Honestly, I couldn't either. I couldn't sleep either.
Speaker 1: I was so I was so excited. I was ready
Speaker 1: for tomorrow to be here. It was a very heartful reunion.
Speaker 1: And then, Caitlin, how was it being back with your
Speaker 1: mom and unlearning the things that your dad had told
Speaker 1: you about her while you're in her presence, like realizing, wow,
Speaker 1: she wasn't out here creating a whole life and not
Speaker 1: trying to think about me, like she's been waiting on
Speaker 1: me all this time? Curiously. It was hard. I had
Speaker 1: to unlearn something that was programmed into me for so
Speaker 1: many years, and so it was like, okay, I actually
Speaker 1: it's not like this. And so I remember when night
Speaker 1: we sat down and we talked and we kind of
Speaker 1: had this conversation and I just laid everything out and
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, this is what I was told.
Speaker 1: Please tell me this is wrong. And of course she
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, this is all wrong, none of this
Speaker 1: is true, and it was definitely different. I'm still struggling
Speaker 1: with it today. I have from it and anxiety and
Speaker 1: I have separation issues and I can't go fifteen minutes
Speaker 1: being alone or I freak out. I'm definitely a codependent
Speaker 1: person because of this, and so it was heartfelt and
Speaker 1: hard at the same time because one I have my
Speaker 1: mom back, but too now I have to readjust and
Speaker 1: relearn things and I have to relearn a whole new person. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1: Part of that, too, is so amazing to me, especially
Speaker 1: for you, caroline, because how safe is it to say
Speaker 1: that you going through your treatment and being a recovering
Speaker 1: alcoholic and learning boundary ease and learning the steps reinforce
Speaker 1: what you do when you connected and reconnected with tit lands,
Speaker 1: because you sound so self actualized and so clear about
Speaker 1: what kind of boundaries you wanted to establish and how
Speaker 1: that worked for you when you guys got together. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I made a vow that I was just going
Speaker 1: to be the healthiest person I could be. I had
Speaker 1: lots of therapists who would tell me they'll come around,
Speaker 1: they're gonna want to know who their mom is, they'll
Speaker 1: come around, they'll come around, and I figured all right, well,
Speaker 1: if this is true, then I want to be firmly
Speaker 1: planted where I'm at. I want them to know that
Speaker 1: I never gave up. I got very involved with several
Speaker 1: different organizations. Are Statewide Coalition, our domestic violence coalition here
Speaker 1: in Colorado, and I do a lot of work with
Speaker 1: parents worldwide and I just wanted them to know that,
Speaker 1: even though I couldn't fight in your traditional court of law,
Speaker 1: I thought a different way and I made a vow
Speaker 1: and I think Ashley and even said don't make the
Speaker 1: same mistakes that we made. I don't want this to
Speaker 1: ever happen to another parent and child relation to up
Speaker 1: as long as I can possibly prevent it. It is
Speaker 1: so heartbreaking, not only as a parent having to go
Speaker 1: through this, but now watching my adult daughter struggle dizzy
Speaker 1: and Ashland explained that while they were in each other's lives,
Speaker 1: now they've had to work through their relationship and get
Speaker 1: through a lot of boundary setting and understanding their own
Speaker 1: personal needs and the needs of each other. And so
Speaker 1: how did you to work to rebuild that once you reconnected?
Speaker 1: It wasn't hard for Caitlin and I to rebuild that.
Speaker 1: We already had such a strong foundation. She was actually
Speaker 1: twelve when a lot of this happened, and so we
Speaker 1: had a really strong bond and she was my mini me,
Speaker 1: and so we were able to have that really strong
Speaker 1: bond and keep that really strong bond together when we reconnected.
Speaker 1: It was one of those moments of like, how you
Speaker 1: haven't spoken to your best friend in twenty years and
Speaker 1: the moment that you pick up the phone and you
Speaker 1: hear each other's voice, you didn't skip a beat. It
Speaker 1: was the same for me and Caitlin. Yeah, we had
Speaker 1: a lot of things that we had to work through.
Speaker 1: We're still working through a lot of things. Fortunately, I've
Speaker 1: had the opportunity to spend the last ten years developing
Speaker 1: myself and growing and learning and trying to understand everything
Speaker 1: that has happened and help others through this process. And, Caitlyn,
Speaker 1: for you, how has it been? It's been hard. Truthfully,
Speaker 1: it's been hard. I finally am I'm learning what's going on.
Speaker 1: My biggest question why did it happen? Why did it
Speaker 1: happen to me? Why am I going through this? And
Speaker 1: I ponder that every day. But not only that, but
Speaker 1: I sit there and I worry about my brother and
Speaker 1: my sister and stuff like that. So it's hard rebuilding this.
Speaker 1: But our relationship is strong and I know that, and
Speaker 1: so it makes it easy because, like my mom said,
Speaker 1: she's planted her feet and she's there for me. So
Speaker 1: I can lean on her a little bit and be like, okay,
Speaker 1: I have no idea what I'm doing. I have no
Speaker 1: idea and, granted, thankfully enough, I'm in therapy and I
Speaker 1: talked with therapists and I'm working on trying to unreadwire
Speaker 1: these habits, and so it's not easy, but it gets better.
Speaker 1: I know that and I want kids out there to
Speaker 1: know who listened to this. It does get better and
Speaker 1: we go through this hatred not only up for our
Speaker 1: parents but ourselves. It took me probably about a year
Speaker 1: ago to finally realize I have hatred for myself and
Speaker 1: I had to learn to tell myself I'm okay and
Speaker 1: I'm sorry and I love you in order for me
Speaker 1: to keep healing, because I hit this point of I
Speaker 1: couldn't keep going and so I was like, okay, I
Speaker 1: need to figure out what else is going on, and
Speaker 1: I really is. Telling Myself I'm sorry helped and forgiving
Speaker 1: yourself for yeah, I mean, you would have never thought
Speaker 1: of something like that. I was the victim, but telling
Speaker 1: myself I'm sorry for putting myself through that was like, okay,
Speaker 1: I have somewhat of control now, okay, I can do this,
Speaker 1: I can having control and having a voice helped you,
Speaker 1: because you felt like you didn't have a voice for
Speaker 1: so long, and even in the midst of that, though,
Speaker 1: you were able to find a relationship, which I think
Speaker 1: is really pretty Dang on amazing, Caitlin, and so you
Speaker 1: mentioned that you're codependent. You acknowledge that. How has your
Speaker 1: current relationship been altered by what you went through as
Speaker 1: a child? It's hard. We have our ups and we
Speaker 1: have our downs. He WORSHIPSTA GRAUND I walk on and
Speaker 1: I love him for that and he is my human
Speaker 1: he is my person. He is he's my person, he's
Speaker 1: my best friend. But we have this and it's different
Speaker 1: and I don't know how to put it in words
Speaker 1: because it's a weird relationship. We really do yours. It
Speaker 1: is ours, but we're weird people. So that's just weird people.
Speaker 1: Weird People Unite. Yes, he caters to my needs and
Speaker 1: I never had that before. I was like, Whoa, someone's
Speaker 1: actually willing to take care of me when I'm sick,
Speaker 1: or he waits for me outside every day when I
Speaker 1: get out of work in school and brings my bag
Speaker 1: in for me. And so I've had this free sixty
Speaker 1: in my life where the one man that I trusted
Speaker 1: the most was like, I'm not going to do that
Speaker 1: and then now I have this person who is willing
Speaker 1: to wait on me hand and foot, and it's like,
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, I wait on him on hand
Speaker 1: on foot too, but it's thank you, thank you for
Speaker 1: taking care of me. And he's given me the room
Speaker 1: to grow and be a person and, honestly, truthfully, to
Speaker 1: give me back a childhood too. He lets me be
Speaker 1: the kid that I am. When it rains, we cuddle
Speaker 1: up and we watched Disney movies till my little heart
Speaker 1: can content, and that is my favorite thing to do.
Speaker 1: It's okay to enjoy childish right. Want to be childish
Speaker 1: for a second. Yeah, it's Nice to forget that I'm
Speaker 1: an adult for twenty one. Well, and then, too, what
Speaker 1: you tapped into. I think there's so much power in that,
Speaker 1: that you were able to find in a mate what
Speaker 1: your father didn't model as a parent, as a father,
Speaker 1: that you didn't see and know what it was like
Speaker 1: to be nurtured, to be protected, to be provided for,
Speaker 1: but you were able to find it in a mate.
Speaker 1: So that's such a gift. Caroline, you mentioned that you
Speaker 1: have two other children and you are not able to
Speaker 1: see them right now, and, Caitlin, those are your siblings
Speaker 1: that you can't see either. So do you all text
Speaker 1: or even follow each other on social media? Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I don't follow them. I'm blocked. Oh, not blocked. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm blocked. I thought that's what you're gonna say. Dang it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it breaks my heart because, going back a little bit,
Speaker 1: back to the show, teddy talks about how his son
Speaker 1: was wearing glasses and he never knew. Honestly, truthfully, I
Speaker 1: feel that because I see pictures of my siblings, because
Speaker 1: I'm friends with people who will send me stuff, and
Speaker 1: I see them and I'm like, I walk right past
Speaker 1: you and not even now. I have no idea and
Speaker 1: it breaks my heart. Caitlyn, could you tell us about
Speaker 1: the last time you talked or interacted? Yeah, the last
Speaker 1: time I saw them. I saw them last October last year.
Speaker 1: I needed my high school diploma for my job and
Speaker 1: I asked my mom. I was like, Hey, I really
Speaker 1: don't have it in me to text my dad. Can
Speaker 1: you ask him for me? I hate to put you
Speaker 1: in this, but can you ask for me? And she's
Speaker 1: like okay, and so she sent him an email and
Speaker 1: I was like thank you, and then the day later
Speaker 1: I get a text message from my dad. How he
Speaker 1: got my phone number, I still don't know to this day,
Speaker 1: and basically saying hey, if you need your stuff, you
Speaker 1: can come get it from the house, and I said, well,
Speaker 1: I really don't want to come get it from the house,
Speaker 1: I'd much rather meet you in public, and he really
Speaker 1: was like, I don't have time to meet you in public.
Speaker 1: So I got suckered into go into the house. How
Speaker 1: was that? Because you didn't want to go back to
Speaker 1: the house because because my stepmom was there and I
Speaker 1: didn't want to see her because I felt like there
Speaker 1: was something my dad needed to say just to me,
Speaker 1: and I just I needed that and I think I
Speaker 1: needed more closure with my dad. I know my siblings.
Speaker 1: They'll be eighteens, not far along. Hopefully they kind of
Speaker 1: get the same wake up called that I did. I
Speaker 1: just wanted to closure with my dad and so I
Speaker 1: went to the house. They opened the door and let
Speaker 1: me in and I get stopped in the hallway right
Speaker 1: before the kitchen and that's as far as I can
Speaker 1: go and my brother and my sister come up and
Speaker 1: they say hello and I was like, well, can I
Speaker 1: have a hug? Like now I'm like, okay, cool, but
Speaker 1: how old are they now? Are they teens? Yeah, so
Speaker 1: there's one's going to be seventeen. Yeah, fifteen and seventeen.
Speaker 1: So they're old enough. They're there. And so I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: this is how this is gonna go. You're not gonna
Speaker 1: invite me in completely to sit and stand here in
Speaker 1: the doorway of a kitchen and we're just gonna play
Speaker 1: back Caitlin for the next twenty minutes. And I got
Speaker 1: told how they mourned me like I was dead. All
Speaker 1: the pictures that they have taken with me were gone.
Speaker 1: I was told that not only did I hurt my dad,
Speaker 1: but I hurt my step mom and how her feelings
Speaker 1: got hurt and all this. And I got told that
Speaker 1: if I ever want a relationship with them that I
Speaker 1: needed to earn their trust first. That's the manipulation for me.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna stop. Yeah, I just yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: It's the other party who came in. As we're older,
Speaker 1: we date and we have our own love lives. Number one,
Speaker 1: you think to yourself, love did all this, Caroline, I
Speaker 1: know this is your ex and it's like love did
Speaker 1: all this, and then for someone to come in that's
Speaker 1: an outsider and add to the manipulation. I know that
Speaker 1: has to be like baffling. Yeah, so I kind of
Speaker 1: was like, I don't know, I want my siblings back
Speaker 1: in my life. So I came home, I sat there
Speaker 1: and I just I involved for probably about a good
Speaker 1: hour straight. I looked at my mom and said, how
Speaker 1: the Hell did you marry this man? Yes, my dad's
Speaker 1: a bad guy, but he had good qualities and he
Speaker 1: was a good person at some point. But at that
Speaker 1: point I was just like how the hell did you
Speaker 1: marry this person and you had kids with him? I
Speaker 1: was like, Dear Lord, okay, that talks a lot about
Speaker 1: the growth in your relationship too, that you were able
Speaker 1: to go back to caroline. Like what the Hell? How
Speaker 1: the hell to your Mama say that? Just being fully transparent, Carolin,
Speaker 1: like is that? Is that why you were drinking? We
Speaker 1: all have our issues and we all accept our roles,
Speaker 1: but seriously, is that why the drinking? Like I'm drinking
Speaker 1: because of you? Like like well, I was sober for
Speaker 1: eight years of the marriage. Yeah, he had good qualities,
Speaker 1: he does and just like dizzy said, he was a
Speaker 1: lousy husband. Well, my ex husband was pretty lousy to
Speaker 1: me I hope he's a much better husband to his
Speaker 1: current wife. Somehow I don't think that's the case, but
Speaker 1: in my opinion she is just as manipulative as he is.
Speaker 1: There were times when she would go to the family
Speaker 1: therapist and talk to them about how she was a
Speaker 1: much better mom to my children than their own biological mother.
Speaker 1: So that's manipulation. When the girls were younger and we
Speaker 1: were supposed to do some family therapy, she actually held
Speaker 1: both of their hands and walked them into the therapist,
Speaker 1: sat them down and said you tell the therapist you're
Speaker 1: not doing therapy with your mom. See, that is so
Speaker 1: much ego. That's way too much ego. It's a lot
Speaker 1: of EGO. It is it's way too much ego, because
Speaker 1: who are you? I don't know who you like. We're
Speaker 1: the ad she needs to go talk to Dr Romany.
Speaker 1: That's the narcissistem on on steroids. Crazy right today, all
Speaker 1: navigating narcissism. We Love Your Dr Romney. And for your siblings.
Speaker 1: They stopped you and said we have mourned you, Caitlin,
Speaker 1: like you were dead. Yeah, did it take you back
Speaker 1: to a place of not having your mom? Because now,
Speaker 1: like I have to choose, like now what? Yeah, and
Speaker 1: it truthfully, it did. And I thought, okay, maybe I'll
Speaker 1: play his game a little bit. Maybe if I can
Speaker 1: get in there further enough, I can let them know, hey,
Speaker 1: this is not what you think it is. Try to
Speaker 1: save them, pull them out kind of with me. And
Speaker 1: I was like okay, maybe I can do it. But
Speaker 1: I thought he's not going to let me have a
Speaker 1: relationship with my mom too. I'm not going to be
Speaker 1: able to have both. I can't. In his eyes, I
Speaker 1: can only love one or the other, and that hurts
Speaker 1: because my dad's my dad. I Love My dad, even
Speaker 1: though he's put me through hell. I love my dad.
Speaker 1: That part. I appreciate you for saying that. It's just
Speaker 1: that's just the in my mind, that's the utmost respect,
Speaker 1: just acknowledging he's still a piece of you, and he is.
Speaker 1: I don't like what you're doing and I'm an adult now.
Speaker 1: I have the right to choose who becomes my family
Speaker 1: and who stays into my side. My family right now.
Speaker 1: I don't want that, I don't need that, and so
Speaker 1: it was hard and I was like, okay, bye, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to do this again. So you didn't get
Speaker 1: the closer. You're looking forward with your dad. No, and
Speaker 1: probably about a couple of months after that, my dad
Speaker 1: texted me. So we're not talking again. You're mad at me,
Speaker 1: when I sent him a text message back saying I'm
Speaker 1: not mad at you, not mad, I just have nothing
Speaker 1: left to say. I have nothing left to say. What
Speaker 1: response would do you think he would have wanted you
Speaker 1: to actually say? I think he probably wanted me to
Speaker 1: say I'm so sorry, I love you. Let's be best
Speaker 1: friends again, let me move back in, let me rearrange
Speaker 1: my whole life again for you. Maybe that's what he
Speaker 1: wanted to hear. Let me show you I need you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's so much full spectrum emotion that goes on in this.
Speaker 1: I've felt it like. I've been like super upset. I've
Speaker 1: been one angry the evil stepmother is going to forever
Speaker 1: get side I from me. She gets put up on
Speaker 1: the side wall. I am happy that you guys reunited.
Speaker 1: I'm super sad that you have not reconnected with your children, Carolyn,
Speaker 1: and with your siblings, Caitlin. How are you managing this?
Speaker 1: How is this working for you, for both of you,
Speaker 1: that you celebrated being reunited while you're also mourning the
Speaker 1: loss of these relationships that you have that are still broken.
Speaker 1: What do you do? How do you manage that as
Speaker 1: a parent? You just keep holding onto hope that someday
Speaker 1: they'll come around. Keep doing what I'm doing, standing in
Speaker 1: my own truth, knowing that I'm not this evil monster.
Speaker 1: I did not abandon my children and I will keep
Speaker 1: trying to educate others on parental alienation so that my
Speaker 1: kids can see that I never gave up on them.
Speaker 1: I just didn't fight it the traditional way in courts,
Speaker 1: because I don't trust the court system. Of Court systems
Speaker 1: broken right now and it keeps proving to us that
Speaker 1: it's broken. As far as celebrate wheting us, she's still
Speaker 1: my mini me. We are still very close. I still
Speaker 1: see her dad in her quite a bit and it
Speaker 1: can be triggering and we can trigger each other, but
Speaker 1: we're learning how to cope and we're learning how to
Speaker 1: keep putting one foot in front of the other. And Yeah,
Speaker 1: I pray. I pray every day and I hold on
Speaker 1: to that hope and that faith that Ryan and Brianna
Speaker 1: will be reunited with us, hopefully one day, very, very soon.
Speaker 1: In case they hear this, what Caroline, would you like
Speaker 1: to say to your two other children? I'll say this
Speaker 1: to every single alienated child out there. Don't be afraid
Speaker 1: to call your parents, don't be afraid to reach out,
Speaker 1: don't be afraid of the consequences that the other parents
Speaker 1: maybe have instilled fearing you. Just reach out, I promise you.
Speaker 1: I promise you they have not abandoned you and they
Speaker 1: want to talk to you. I promise you. They want
Speaker 1: to talk to you. And then, Caitlin, what would you
Speaker 1: say to your siblings or any other alienated child? Well,
Speaker 1: to my siblings, I love you. I love you so
Speaker 1: much and I'm here and I'm standing and I will
Speaker 1: be here when you need me with open arms. And
Speaker 1: to everyone out there that's going through what I went through,
Speaker 1: there is hope and for Real, pick up the phone,
Speaker 1: send that text message if you need an out. I
Speaker 1: don't care where you are, even if you're another state,
Speaker 1: I will come help you get out of that because
Speaker 1: I know where you've been through and it gets better
Speaker 1: and it will get better and it's hard right now, yes,
Speaker 1: but it's gonna be okay because at the end of
Speaker 1: a rainstorm comes a rainbow, and your rainbow is coming
Speaker 1: really soon. That's beautiful. That's beautiful, Carl. I don't think
Speaker 1: there's anything else we could possibly ask for. I don't
Speaker 1: think so, except maybe we'll invite you all back later on,
Speaker 1: because I enjoyed talking. Please invite us back. We'd love
Speaker 1: to come back and looking for an update when you
Speaker 1: come back and be able to have even more people
Speaker 1: on with us, because your siblings and your children will
Speaker 1: be reunited with you as well. That's what we hope.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for joining us at this
Speaker 1: virtual red table. Thank you, ladies, thank you so much. Yes,
Speaker 1: thank you for letting US tell our story for all.
Speaker 1: We want to know what you are feeling about this
Speaker 1: new season a red table talk. We are open to
Speaker 1: talk about anything with you all, so please send in
Speaker 1: your questions at let's Red Table, that at Red Table
Speaker 1: Talk Dot Com. Yes, because those emails are read and
Speaker 1: responded to every week. Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1: Make sure you subscribe on I heart radio APP and
Speaker 1: please rate this podcast on apple podcast. Rate US up five.
Speaker 1: We'll be back next week for another episode of Let's
Speaker 1: Red Table. That I bet. Thank you to our executive producers,
Speaker 1: Jada Pinkett Smith Ellen Racketon and Alan Jethrow, and thank
Speaker 1: you to our producer Kyla Kanu and our associate producer
Speaker 1: Yolanda Chow. And finally, thank you to our sound engineers,
Speaker 1: Calvin bailiff and Devin Donahee. Yeah, let's Red table that.
Speaker 1: Let's Red Table that