WEBVTT - What to Make of the NBA Sports Betting Scandal 

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making

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<v Speaker 1>better decisions. I'm Maria Kanikova and I'm Nate Silver. So

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<v Speaker 1>today on the show, Nate, we'll be talking about kind

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<v Speaker 1>of core risky business topic, which is, you know, poker, sports, betting, gambling,

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<v Speaker 1>all of these things. We'll be talking about the two

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<v Speaker 1>indictments that came out a last week on Thursday, the

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<v Speaker 1>twenty third, that involve NBA players other personalities who allegedly

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<v Speaker 1>took part in some unsavory cheating behaviors.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a little bit like two federal indictments, five mafia families,

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<v Speaker 2>eight co conspirators, and a partridge. It's sorry, it's almost Please.

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<v Speaker 1>Please continue, Nate, can you have you have some very

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<v Speaker 1>Christmas y lights behind you? Because you are not in

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<v Speaker 1>New York.

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<v Speaker 2>I am in FBI. No, I'm just kidding. I am

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<v Speaker 2>in Ciudad de Mexico. I'm in Mexico City. I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>supposed to be in Mexico City right now. I am

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<v Speaker 2>supposed to have flown down tonight. But you know, there

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<v Speaker 2>was some at least good risky business airline strategy employed

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<v Speaker 2>last night, which is why I'm getting out today and

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<v Speaker 2>instead of staying even longer, and didn't bring my microphone. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>That's why I had my phone dangling from my headphones

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<v Speaker 2>and at the El Camino Reale hotel near Terminal ones

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<v Speaker 2>of whatever it's called Benito a Quires Airport. Although I

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<v Speaker 2>did make a good decision yesterday Maria talked about like

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<v Speaker 2>decisions under pressure. So get in the flight, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>little s flow on the tarmac after about Actually, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think we've even pushed off the tarmac, right, And

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<v Speaker 2>the pilot is like, well, we're just taking care of

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<v Speaker 2>some just paperwork right here, right, And I feel like

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<v Speaker 2>I'm already being like gas lit a little bit, like

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<v Speaker 2>you said, another forty minutes or so on, okay for work.

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<v Speaker 2>And then he comes back on. And by the way,

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<v Speaker 2>I can tell me.

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<v Speaker 1>Forty minutes on the paperwork night, that's never I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>taking care of some paperwork is not forty minutes.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm an experienced flyer. I can tell within microseconds by

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<v Speaker 2>the tone of the pilot's voice just how bad the

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<v Speaker 2>news is. Right, So it's like another delay for like,

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<v Speaker 2>so we're now like an hour and thirty forty minutes

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<v Speaker 2>without having pushed back from the gate and now there's

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<v Speaker 2>some clarity. That's an engine problem with an undetermined time

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<v Speaker 2>of resolution. Right, I start using what little Wi Fi

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<v Speaker 2>I have to ask, not that you can congress with

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<v Speaker 2>your own comment sense of up being a prequent flyer, right,

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<v Speaker 2>but like I asked chat GPT and Claude like, what

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<v Speaker 2>are the chances that we're really going to get off

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<v Speaker 2>on this flight tonight?

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<v Speaker 1>Right?

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<v Speaker 2>And Claude's like, Yo, they're gaslighting you bro.

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<v Speaker 1>Claude tells it like it is, they're gaslighting you bro.

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<v Speaker 2>You enough to know what are you talking about? Thirty

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<v Speaker 2>percent chance? Right? And then we deplane and then Claude's like, immediately, no,

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<v Speaker 2>readbook your ticket and so and so we did, and

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<v Speaker 2>so we got I think one of the relatively few

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<v Speaker 2>seats available on the same flight today, probably gonna be

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<v Speaker 2>a middle seat. Not gonna lie Maria, Probably gonna be

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<v Speaker 2>middle seed. But like I'd rather in Houston or something.

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<v Speaker 2>But the important thing is you have to act quickly, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>in these air trabal decision might mears. After my partner

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<v Speaker 2>and I checked in, we went back up to the

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<v Speaker 2>lobby to go get a uber to dinner, and like

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<v Speaker 2>there's a line an hour and a half long. Everybody

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<v Speaker 2>asked from our flight, who did not behave so proactively?

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<v Speaker 2>Who will gaslet by like Delta, but Delta Airlines, you

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<v Speaker 2>know you owe me one, you only one. You owe

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<v Speaker 2>me a free flight somewhere probably, so act decisively. Sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>equilibrium of like oh, let's kind of wait and see

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<v Speaker 2>is like actually quite quite a bad equilibrium.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, absolutely, that's really good advice. I'm gonna echo that

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<v Speaker 1>act quickly, and when it seems like it's going wrong,

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<v Speaker 1>it'll probably go wrong. But now let's uh, let's turn

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<v Speaker 1>to uh the hot topic of the day, which is

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<v Speaker 1>so in the risky business domain, it's not even funny

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<v Speaker 1>core risky business. Nate, has anything been happening with the

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<v Speaker 1>NBA and sports bedding and poker? I don't think there's

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<v Speaker 1>anything in the news, do you.

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<v Speaker 2>It's been an exciting start to the NBA season. Victor

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<v Speaker 2>Womanyana it looks like it, and Women Yama looks like

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<v Speaker 2>an MVP already. Steph Curry has already had big comebacks.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a big NBA fan. But which day was it?

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<v Speaker 2>It was Thursday? I think early Morre? Yeah, is that right? Yep?

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<v Speaker 1>So it was Thursday. The twenty third of October.

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<v Speaker 2>So there are two funeral indictments which at first might

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<v Speaker 2>appear unrelated but actually have a lot of co conspirators,

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<v Speaker 2>as they are called. And remember, the things we're gonna

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<v Speaker 2>be discussing here are allegations. Marie and I are not lawyers.

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<v Speaker 2>We have right right as journalists and citizens to engage

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<v Speaker 2>in beaesy and priors about how likely some of these

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<v Speaker 2>things are. But they are accusations, allegations. They are not

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<v Speaker 2>approven yet they are disputed by their clients lawyers in

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<v Speaker 2>at least some cases. But two big federal indictments, one

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<v Speaker 2>of which concerns cheating essentially at sports betting. There are

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of different forms of this. So one form

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<v Speaker 2>involves one particular NBA player named Terriett Rogier, who is

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<v Speaker 2>kind of a fortieth percentile mediocre NBA player but has

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<v Speaker 2>still made over one hundred million dollars in his career,

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<v Speaker 2>allegedly removing himself from games early to help his co

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<v Speaker 2>conspirators win prop bets. Now, look, our audience probably will

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<v Speaker 2>know more about prop bets than the average bear. But

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<v Speaker 2>if you're not familiar, if you think about sports betting,

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<v Speaker 2>you might think about. Okay, I can vote bet on

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<v Speaker 2>quite spreads. I could been on money lines, which is

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<v Speaker 2>just the percent the odds, the percentage chance that the

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<v Speaker 2>team wins, or totals or over unders as they're sometimes called, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and you can bet on the future, as has he

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<v Speaker 2>won the Super Bowl, that kind of thing. However, recently,

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<v Speaker 2>you can also bet on how individual players will do,

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<v Speaker 2>and it almost doesn't seem to matter how obscure the

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<v Speaker 2>player is. So Terry Rozier is a mediocre player. Jontay

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<v Speaker 2>Porter is a player who is less than mediocre and

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<v Speaker 2>was suspended for life by the NBA last year for

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<v Speaker 2>a I guess proven to the NBA satisfaction allegation of

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<v Speaker 2>a similar scheme. Right, you're like, hey, look, I bet

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<v Speaker 2>the under bros on this. I'm going to ask out

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<v Speaker 2>of the game after the first quarter, right, cite some injury,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you'll cash in big on your underbets. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>It's like allegation one A. Allegation one B concerns inside

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<v Speaker 2>information leaking to the gamblers about the availability of key

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<v Speaker 2>NBA players. So a person named co Conspirator eight, who

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<v Speaker 2>is almost certainly because the clues are not very subtle.

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<v Speaker 2>Currently suspended Portland Trailblazers coach Chauncy Billups, a former member

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<v Speaker 2>of the Detroit Pistons other teams who has now been

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<v Speaker 2>suspended by the league, but a Hall of Fame player

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<v Speaker 2>who allegedly tip off his gambling buddies about when key

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<v Speaker 2>personal that we're going to participate. Damian Jones is a

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<v Speaker 2>Los Angeles Lakers former player. Actually, Damian Jones is like

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<v Speaker 2>a confidant of Lebron James. Lebron James is not accused

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<v Speaker 2>of anything whatsoever, but like he was a friend who

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<v Speaker 2>had access to like is Lebron practicing house he feeling

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<v Speaker 2>Knowing whether Lebron James will play in a game obviously

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<v Speaker 2>very important if you're trying to bet on the Lakers

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<v Speaker 2>or against the Lakers for that matter. Right, and there

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<v Speaker 2>are several allegations of inside information leaking before it became

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<v Speaker 2>publicly known according to the NBA's officially very diligent injury

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<v Speaker 2>reporting protocols. Right and by the way, this most has

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<v Speaker 2>happened in the twenty twenty two twenty three NBA season,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a year where I bet the regular season

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<v Speaker 2>every day. It was kind of an experiment side hustle

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<v Speaker 2>for the book to see what the ins and outs

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<v Speaker 2>like really were for a professional gambler, and so some

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<v Speaker 2>of the stuff looked fishy in real time. The second

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<v Speaker 2>indictment is.

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<v Speaker 1>For the creation Royal Flush operation.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you try a little harder?

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<v Speaker 1>Right?

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<v Speaker 2>Can you try? Like, I don't know Operation Flows or

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>Operation Royal Flush Night. Yeah, this one is poker related

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<v Speaker 1>about cheating in games from La Vegas, New York, even

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<v Speaker 1>the Hamptons. I realized that's also New York, but games

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<v Speaker 1>all over the country. And there's one person who's in

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<v Speaker 1>both indictments, we assume because as you said, person of

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<v Speaker 1>interest to you know, eight in indictment number one is

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<v Speaker 1>probably Chauncey Billips. Chauncey Bilps is named in indictment number two.

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<v Speaker 1>And these were illegal underground games where lots of famous

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<v Speaker 1>faces they're known as the face cards in the indictment night.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of famous players and you know, famous personalities

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<v Speaker 1>were in games. Some of them were apparently involved in this,

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<v Speaker 1>allegedly involved in this. The games were correct, good, there

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<v Speaker 1>were crooked car shufflers, there were X ray tables, there

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<v Speaker 1>were sunglasses and contact onses and basically I don't even

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<v Speaker 1>understand like it's like layer upon layer upon layer. If

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<v Speaker 1>the technology of cheating exists, it seems like they used

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<v Speaker 1>it at one point or another in these games. And

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<v Speaker 1>the most striking thing Nate about all of these things is,

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<v Speaker 1>it's the first time I've seen, you know, the famous

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<v Speaker 1>New York crime families working together. You know, it's the

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<v Speaker 1>five families, is what you traditionally think of. In this

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<v Speaker 1>particular case, four of them are in the indictment, But

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<v Speaker 1>in my mind, it's the five families uniting for a

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<v Speaker 1>worthy cost, which is, there are so many suckers here,

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<v Speaker 1>let's see how we can fleece them, because allegedly they

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<v Speaker 1>were all involved in these games, in backing them and

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<v Speaker 1>helping them take place, and in helping to collect outstanding

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<v Speaker 1>debt when people lost over seven million dollars. I mean

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<v Speaker 1>that's for poker. Like I understand that for a basketball

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<v Speaker 1>player who makes hundreds of millions, million might not seem

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<v Speaker 1>like a lot, but for a poker game, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>seven point one million dollars, that's a lot of money.

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<v Speaker 2>What I've never done is play in an underground game

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<v Speaker 2>as opposed to a home game. To me, the big

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<v Speaker 2>distinction is not as complicate as people are making it

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<v Speaker 2>out to be. Is are they taking a rake exactly

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<v Speaker 2>or a profit? Right?

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<v Speaker 1>If they are, And by the way, let's just caveat

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<v Speaker 1>this for one second, people who are our poker listeners.

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<v Speaker 1>Rake means that out of every pot played. So say

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<v Speaker 1>Nate and I are in a hand together. Nate, that's

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<v Speaker 1>ten dollars, and I call the ten dollars. So there's

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<v Speaker 1>twenty dollars in the middle, and the house will take,

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<v Speaker 1>depending on the rake, let's say a dollar out of

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<v Speaker 1>it or two dollars out of it, you know, whatever

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<v Speaker 1>it is, and that will go towards the house. That's

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<v Speaker 1>the rake. You take a cut out of every pot

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<v Speaker 1>that's in the middle, just automatically, as like a fee,

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<v Speaker 1>a courtesy fee for running the game. And that is

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<v Speaker 1>not legal. So, even though home games are legal almost everywhere,

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<v Speaker 1>if you don't take rake, as soon as you rake them,

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<v Speaker 1>it becomes completely illegal.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and we should clarify a couple of things here, right.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, all of the home games I play and

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<v Speaker 2>include some collection for booze catering if you bring in

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<v Speaker 2>an external dealer, So if there are shared expenses, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>if somebody is the host. Nothing says they have to

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<v Speaker 2>like eat all the expenses themselves, right, But they're not

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<v Speaker 2>trying to directly profit them game. Maybe they're trying to

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<v Speaker 2>build a network, Maybe they're maybe they think they're a

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<v Speaker 2>winning player in the game, but they're not. They don't

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<v Speaker 2>make money per hand or per hour just by the

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<v Speaker 2>mere act of running a poker game, right. That's that's

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<v Speaker 2>the one clear distinction. By the way, if you want

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<v Speaker 2>to be technical, you know, check the laws in your

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<v Speaker 2>local state. As far as I am aware, where have

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<v Speaker 2>I ever played private games, I guess New York, California,

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<v Speaker 2>those states, poker is pretty clearly legal, I believe. If

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<v Speaker 2>you're if you're not taking a rake, yep, it was

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<v Speaker 2>gonna be careful. The Feds don't always interpret gambling law

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<v Speaker 2>that sympathetically. If there's a lot of money changing hands,

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<v Speaker 2>if there's you know, if there's a bunch of drug

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<v Speaker 2>use or prostitution or things like that at your game,

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<v Speaker 2>then you know, but typically poker gets kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>caught up, you know. If I had to guess, well,

0:12:21.524 --> 0:12:23.684
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. If I had to guess, I would

0:12:23.804 --> 0:12:27.604
<v Speaker 2>think that the NBA investigation came first, and the poker

0:12:27.684 --> 0:12:30.324
<v Speaker 2>kind of got dragged into it. Maybe that's wrong, but

0:12:30.364 --> 0:12:32.324
<v Speaker 2>in terms of kind of like what things that fed

0:12:32.404 --> 0:12:35.764
<v Speaker 2>typically prioritize more, maybe it's from the poker is actually

0:12:35.764 --> 0:12:39.404
<v Speaker 2>more money allegedly, right and totally more than seven million

0:12:39.444 --> 0:12:41.004
<v Speaker 2>at least quote unquote they say.

0:12:41.724 --> 0:12:47.564
<v Speaker 1>But I would actually think that. I mean, from my perspective,

0:12:47.604 --> 0:12:51.084
<v Speaker 1>it seems like the poker would probably not have been

0:12:51.524 --> 0:12:54.124
<v Speaker 1>that would not have happened without the sports betting because

0:12:54.124 --> 0:12:57.364
<v Speaker 1>in the sports betting there are just many more parties

0:12:57.404 --> 0:13:01.924
<v Speaker 1>that are directly related to state institutions. Right, because now

0:13:01.924 --> 0:13:05.644
<v Speaker 1>that sports betting is legal in over thirty states, states

0:13:05.684 --> 0:13:10.484
<v Speaker 1>are actually reliant on tax revenue sports betting from the

0:13:10.484 --> 0:13:13.004
<v Speaker 1>big companies from all of that legal stuff. So there's

0:13:13.124 --> 0:13:15.924
<v Speaker 1>a lot of Now it's been formalized in such a

0:13:15.924 --> 0:13:19.004
<v Speaker 1>way that like it just draws a lot of attention.

0:13:19.084 --> 0:13:22.044
<v Speaker 1>It's not just an internal NBA thing, right where the

0:13:22.124 --> 0:13:25.764
<v Speaker 1>NBA can say like, oh, I've investigated my player and

0:13:26.364 --> 0:13:28.764
<v Speaker 1>everything seems to be okay or not. But now you

0:13:28.844 --> 0:13:34.044
<v Speaker 1>have all of these different organizations with different incentives. Because

0:13:34.084 --> 0:13:36.204
<v Speaker 1>I think that on its own, like the NBA isn't

0:13:36.244 --> 0:13:41.444
<v Speaker 1>necessarily incentivized to go over after everyone so ardently but together.

0:13:41.564 --> 0:13:44.124
<v Speaker 1>Once you have the sports betting companies, once you have

0:13:44.644 --> 0:13:47.084
<v Speaker 1>state involvement, once you have all of these things, then

0:13:47.404 --> 0:13:49.804
<v Speaker 1>that's where like, that's where shit hits the fan.

0:13:54.764 --> 0:14:11.004
<v Speaker 2>And we'll be right back after this break. I am

0:14:11.444 --> 0:14:14.964
<v Speaker 2>not as sympathetic to the people who are defrauded. Let's

0:14:14.964 --> 0:14:18.324
<v Speaker 2>say it's not a victimless crime, right, the victims entered

0:14:18.364 --> 0:14:19.564
<v Speaker 2>into this den of iniquity.

0:14:20.084 --> 0:14:23.004
<v Speaker 1>Kind of which fun we're talking about poker now, for poker.

0:14:22.724 --> 0:14:27.524
<v Speaker 2>Right where they're playing games that if you're playing at

0:14:27.564 --> 0:14:30.004
<v Speaker 2>high stakes, you ought to know that there are various

0:14:30.084 --> 0:14:32.844
<v Speaker 2>kinds of risks, right. I mean, it's just like people

0:14:32.884 --> 0:14:37.884
<v Speaker 2>don't realize the extent to which everything that a casino does,

0:14:38.204 --> 0:14:41.764
<v Speaker 2>right from like what they do when you cash your

0:14:41.884 --> 0:14:45.524
<v Speaker 2>cash in for chips, to like you know, burning a

0:14:45.604 --> 0:14:50.324
<v Speaker 2>car before dealing the flop, right, even things people don't

0:14:50.364 --> 0:14:53.124
<v Speaker 2>think about, like you know, why are there where it's

0:14:53.164 --> 0:14:55.844
<v Speaker 2>a two color deck black and red instead of four

0:14:55.884 --> 0:14:58.084
<v Speaker 2>colors which they use in our creatially games sometimes, Well

0:14:58.084 --> 0:15:01.644
<v Speaker 2>it's because like it's hard to distinguish if you want

0:15:01.684 --> 0:15:03.284
<v Speaker 2>to see two colors and black and red kind of

0:15:03.284 --> 0:15:06.644
<v Speaker 2>both appear kind of dark kind of dark hued colors. Right,

0:15:07.404 --> 0:15:10.724
<v Speaker 2>you know if a dealer, secondly you're unmistaken, flashes flush

0:15:10.764 --> 0:15:12.964
<v Speaker 2>as a card, you can see the bottom of the deck, Right,

0:15:13.044 --> 0:15:14.564
<v Speaker 2>it gives you less information if you don't know as

0:15:14.604 --> 0:15:16.844
<v Speaker 2>much about the suit, right, and so like, all these

0:15:16.884 --> 0:15:19.924
<v Speaker 2>procedures that have been put into place for many years

0:15:20.284 --> 0:15:26.484
<v Speaker 2>have made poker and casino environments relatively safe enterprises. Which

0:15:26.524 --> 0:15:30.804
<v Speaker 2>is not equilibrium otherwise, right. Equilibrium otherwise is that you

0:15:30.844 --> 0:15:35.204
<v Speaker 2>know it's someone cheats. Whereas the NBA scandal, it's not

0:15:35.284 --> 0:15:39.884
<v Speaker 2>just that, like the betting companies are defrauded and the

0:15:39.924 --> 0:15:43.564
<v Speaker 2>league is defrauded. It also affects the interests of fans

0:15:43.724 --> 0:15:46.044
<v Speaker 2>and affects the interest like the integrity of the NBA.

0:15:46.684 --> 0:15:49.004
<v Speaker 2>It also affects like people like me who are trying

0:15:49.084 --> 0:15:51.524
<v Speaker 2>to win money the right way at sports betting. Right,

0:15:51.564 --> 0:15:53.084
<v Speaker 2>you can try to read the tea leaves of what

0:15:53.164 --> 0:15:55.284
<v Speaker 2>kind of like a I don't know if you call

0:15:55.324 --> 0:15:57.404
<v Speaker 2>the line rigged, but you know you can often detect

0:15:57.444 --> 0:16:01.644
<v Speaker 2>the presence of frankly of inside information in the line. Right,

0:16:01.684 --> 0:16:04.764
<v Speaker 2>It's hard to know when it's inside information versus like

0:16:05.164 --> 0:16:08.604
<v Speaker 2>when is their sharp movement from a particularly skilled gambler

0:16:09.004 --> 0:16:12.164
<v Speaker 2>or from a syndicate. Right, Billy Walters, the famous and

0:16:12.284 --> 0:16:14.524
<v Speaker 2>I felt another sports better right. You know, he plays

0:16:14.564 --> 0:16:16.484
<v Speaker 2>a lot of action, tends to come in late in

0:16:16.524 --> 0:16:21.524
<v Speaker 2>the day. That's his philosophy, right, And if the book

0:16:21.564 --> 0:16:24.244
<v Speaker 2>makers know which way he's betting, that might move to

0:16:24.284 --> 0:16:27.244
<v Speaker 2>spread materially. Right. But like you, very often, if you've

0:16:27.244 --> 0:16:29.804
<v Speaker 2>been in the NBA, have a sense that somebody knows

0:16:29.804 --> 0:16:30.684
<v Speaker 2>something that I don't.

0:16:31.884 --> 0:16:34.524
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, it's it's really interesting in both of

0:16:34.564 --> 0:16:37.804
<v Speaker 1>these things. I think something that came to my mind

0:16:38.004 --> 0:16:41.084
<v Speaker 1>as someone who has spent a lot of time with

0:16:41.124 --> 0:16:44.604
<v Speaker 1>con artists, right, and in that world, in both you know,

0:16:44.644 --> 0:16:49.644
<v Speaker 1>the sports betting and in poker games, there's this real

0:16:50.524 --> 0:16:54.284
<v Speaker 1>blind spot when it comes to yourself for most people,

0:16:54.724 --> 0:16:58.164
<v Speaker 1>and being objective about kind of your own edge and

0:16:58.204 --> 0:17:01.724
<v Speaker 1>like what you know, what is what is right versus

0:17:01.764 --> 0:17:04.844
<v Speaker 1>not in the sense that like, if you know, the

0:17:05.724 --> 0:17:07.884
<v Speaker 1>cliche is cliche for a reason. If it seems too

0:17:07.884 --> 0:17:10.524
<v Speaker 1>good to be true, right, it probably is. And yet

0:17:10.724 --> 0:17:13.524
<v Speaker 1>right when it comes to you, you think that, oh

0:17:13.564 --> 0:17:15.764
<v Speaker 1>it's not actually too good to be true. I've just

0:17:15.804 --> 0:17:17.844
<v Speaker 1>found a really great spot. I found a really great

0:17:17.924 --> 0:17:20.844
<v Speaker 1>edge et cetera, et cetera. And with sports betting, Nate,

0:17:20.924 --> 0:17:24.164
<v Speaker 1>it's that so unlike poker, which I do play, I've

0:17:24.204 --> 0:17:27.884
<v Speaker 1>never bet on sports still, no, not even once. I've

0:17:27.884 --> 0:17:31.804
<v Speaker 1>never placed to see those sports bet I promised Eric

0:17:31.924 --> 0:17:34.204
<v Speaker 1>Sidell when I first started playing poker, and when he

0:17:34.244 --> 0:17:37.124
<v Speaker 1>agreed to coach me and kind of meant to me,

0:17:37.524 --> 0:17:40.004
<v Speaker 1>he made me promise that I wouldn't sports bet. So

0:17:40.444 --> 0:17:45.244
<v Speaker 1>I have kept that promise. And yeah, he uh, he

0:17:45.364 --> 0:17:47.764
<v Speaker 1>firmly believed that sports betting was the way to ruin

0:17:47.884 --> 0:17:50.564
<v Speaker 1>for a lot of people. Not that I'd become a

0:17:50.564 --> 0:17:53.444
<v Speaker 1>gambling addict, but that he has hardly ever met anyone

0:17:53.444 --> 0:17:56.284
<v Speaker 1>who has a true edge, right, so unless you have information,

0:17:56.324 --> 0:17:58.324
<v Speaker 1>and he, by the ways, bets on sports himself, but

0:17:58.364 --> 0:18:00.124
<v Speaker 1>it's very hard to have an edge. So no, so

0:18:00.244 --> 0:18:03.124
<v Speaker 1>I haven't personally ever bet on sports. However, what you

0:18:03.164 --> 0:18:06.084
<v Speaker 1>were just talking about, I think that there's a lot

0:18:06.124 --> 0:18:08.404
<v Speaker 1>of like, oh, like is this line right? Like you're

0:18:08.404 --> 0:18:10.604
<v Speaker 1>trying to figure out is this too good to be

0:18:10.684 --> 0:18:14.964
<v Speaker 1>true or not? And as you wrote in the Silver

0:18:15.004 --> 0:18:17.924
<v Speaker 1>Bulletin earlier this week, like there were times when you

0:18:17.964 --> 0:18:19.684
<v Speaker 1>took something and it ended up that it was too

0:18:19.764 --> 0:18:23.044
<v Speaker 1>good to be true, right that like it just looked

0:18:23.084 --> 0:18:24.724
<v Speaker 1>so good and you're like, I'm good a bet it anyway,

0:18:24.764 --> 0:18:26.604
<v Speaker 1>and it was too good to be true, and so

0:18:27.244 --> 0:18:30.764
<v Speaker 1>you are like when you are fucking with the integrity

0:18:30.804 --> 0:18:33.324
<v Speaker 1>of it, like you actually are affecting a lot of

0:18:33.364 --> 0:18:36.764
<v Speaker 1>people in very real ways. That's a huge problem. It's

0:18:36.764 --> 0:18:39.924
<v Speaker 1>a problem for poker obviously, but you know, sports are

0:18:40.004 --> 0:18:42.524
<v Speaker 1>kind of America's national pastime, and you have to believe

0:18:42.564 --> 0:18:46.124
<v Speaker 1>that you're watching fair competitions, right, that players are trying

0:18:46.164 --> 0:18:49.564
<v Speaker 1>their best, that everything, like that they want to win,

0:18:49.764 --> 0:18:52.484
<v Speaker 1>like that they're playing their best game, that they're trying

0:18:52.564 --> 0:18:56.404
<v Speaker 1>to kind of do whatever it takes. And if that

0:18:56.644 --> 0:19:00.604
<v Speaker 1>faith is you know, fractured, right, if all of a

0:19:00.644 --> 0:19:03.244
<v Speaker 1>sudden you're like, oh my god, you know that's not

0:19:03.324 --> 0:19:05.764
<v Speaker 1>what's happening. I'm watching something that's rigged, but it's not

0:19:05.804 --> 0:19:09.564
<v Speaker 1>supposed to be rigged, then you I mean, that's heartbreaking

0:19:09.644 --> 0:19:13.604
<v Speaker 1>in some ways, right, It kind of shatters. It shatters

0:19:13.604 --> 0:19:15.564
<v Speaker 1>a dream I think in a lot of licens.

0:19:16.844 --> 0:19:18.684
<v Speaker 2>Let me hit on both the points serial. Let me

0:19:18.764 --> 0:19:22.524
<v Speaker 2>first talk about like both poker players and sports betters

0:19:23.644 --> 0:19:28.684
<v Speaker 2>are often naive about how thin their edges are right, yes,

0:19:28.804 --> 0:19:34.044
<v Speaker 2>Now you know, live cash poker against fish fish or

0:19:34.084 --> 0:19:40.564
<v Speaker 2>bad players, you can have objectively pretty large edges, yes there, right,

0:19:41.284 --> 0:19:44.524
<v Speaker 2>So you know, sometimes you know, it might be rational

0:19:44.604 --> 0:19:46.644
<v Speaker 2>in some sense to say, like, Okay, there's little few

0:19:46.724 --> 0:19:51.164
<v Speaker 2>risks here, but this game is so good. Right, But yeah, no,

0:19:51.284 --> 0:19:53.804
<v Speaker 2>I mean, like a lot of these things. You know,

0:19:54.684 --> 0:19:56.364
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if you're as much of an NBA

0:19:56.564 --> 0:19:58.884
<v Speaker 2>geek as I am, probably not, a lot of things

0:19:58.884 --> 0:20:01.084
<v Speaker 2>are things that like are already problems with the league anyway.

0:20:01.164 --> 0:20:04.084
<v Speaker 2>So the fact that like teams will try to lose

0:20:04.124 --> 0:20:05.964
<v Speaker 2>the old tank in order to get a better draft pick,

0:20:06.004 --> 0:20:08.404
<v Speaker 2>occasionally for other reasons, to manipulate their playoff spot to

0:20:08.404 --> 0:20:11.164
<v Speaker 2>get a more favorable match. Right, For what I understand,

0:20:11.244 --> 0:20:13.724
<v Speaker 2>the league has not been very diligent about like the

0:20:13.804 --> 0:20:17.364
<v Speaker 2>cause for why somebody isn't playing. Also, you know you

0:20:17.444 --> 0:20:20.644
<v Speaker 2>might strongly suspect I mean again, when I when I

0:20:20.644 --> 0:20:22.644
<v Speaker 2>were spending the NBA, you know, you usually had a

0:20:22.684 --> 0:20:24.924
<v Speaker 2>pretty good idea about like certain guys aren't going to

0:20:24.964 --> 0:20:28.044
<v Speaker 2>play in certain games if they're back to backs for

0:20:28.084 --> 0:20:29.804
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of games in a row. Teams tend to

0:20:29.844 --> 0:20:33.724
<v Speaker 2>like obfuscate that into last minute for like a competitive edge, right,

0:20:33.804 --> 0:20:37.324
<v Speaker 2>and the league has depends that you talk to not

0:20:37.524 --> 0:20:39.884
<v Speaker 2>enforced that as producedly as they could. No other sports

0:20:39.964 --> 0:20:42.244
<v Speaker 2>league like the NBA. Again maybe my favorite sports league

0:20:42.484 --> 0:20:47.244
<v Speaker 2>has this trouble with teams tanking games and trying to lose.

0:20:48.724 --> 0:20:51.484
<v Speaker 1>So as listeners of the show, now, I'm working on

0:20:51.484 --> 0:20:53.884
<v Speaker 1>a book about cheating and games, which is very germane.

0:20:53.924 --> 0:20:57.844
<v Speaker 1>Here the other sport where you see like so much

0:20:57.964 --> 0:21:00.524
<v Speaker 1>cheating taking place, but it's not. It's a very different

0:21:00.604 --> 0:21:03.844
<v Speaker 1>levels tennis, right, because that's somewhere once again where it's

0:21:03.884 --> 0:21:09.604
<v Speaker 1>individual and individuals like you can easily affect the the

0:21:09.644 --> 0:21:13.524
<v Speaker 1>outcome because it's not a team sport, right. From what

0:21:13.604 --> 0:21:17.204
<v Speaker 1>I can tell, basketball is the other one, just because

0:21:17.324 --> 0:21:20.564
<v Speaker 1>of the way that the sport works. And so I

0:21:20.564 --> 0:21:25.244
<v Speaker 1>think that a lot of organizations, including the NBA, nate,

0:21:25.244 --> 0:21:26.804
<v Speaker 1>if we put this back in kind of a game

0:21:26.884 --> 0:21:32.444
<v Speaker 1>theoretic lens, they often are not thinking kind of long term, right.

0:21:32.484 --> 0:21:35.124
<v Speaker 1>They're not thinking about incentives for like long term health.

0:21:35.164 --> 0:21:38.364
<v Speaker 1>They're thinking immediately like oh shit, I need to cover

0:21:38.444 --> 0:21:41.244
<v Speaker 1>my ass, right, Like it's better for me if I

0:21:41.244 --> 0:21:43.284
<v Speaker 1>don't look too closely, it's better for me, if I

0:21:43.324 --> 0:21:46.924
<v Speaker 1>clear this player, it's better. You know, people think everything's fine,

0:21:47.364 --> 0:21:50.244
<v Speaker 1>and yet over the long term, if you don't pay

0:21:50.284 --> 0:21:53.644
<v Speaker 1>attention to these sorts of things, that's when trust in

0:21:53.684 --> 0:21:57.644
<v Speaker 1>the integrity of the game is going to flounder. And

0:21:57.724 --> 0:22:00.804
<v Speaker 1>that's what actually matters. And so I think that you

0:22:00.844 --> 0:22:03.364
<v Speaker 1>know this is true. You know this is true in

0:22:03.404 --> 0:22:07.804
<v Speaker 1>poker and punishing cheaters, but people are very shortsighted and

0:22:07.964 --> 0:22:11.004
<v Speaker 1>they think, oh, immediately like I don't want the bad press.

0:22:11.124 --> 0:22:15.924
<v Speaker 1>And yet if you actually pay attention, if you actually punish,

0:22:16.004 --> 0:22:19.244
<v Speaker 1>if the punishments are harsh, that's how you disincentivize the

0:22:19.284 --> 0:22:23.324
<v Speaker 1>behavior and create a game that people believe in moving forward.

0:22:23.804 --> 0:22:26.644
<v Speaker 1>And so you know, I would love obviously, you know,

0:22:26.884 --> 0:22:30.724
<v Speaker 1>these indictments right now, allegations, we don't know what's going

0:22:30.804 --> 0:22:34.044
<v Speaker 1>to happen, but I would really love for there to be,

0:22:34.644 --> 0:22:38.604
<v Speaker 1>if there's the evidence, very harsh punishments, right, punishments that

0:22:38.644 --> 0:22:43.804
<v Speaker 1>would deter anyone from towing even close to the line

0:22:44.564 --> 0:22:49.524
<v Speaker 1>for whatever reason, because that's what you know, You're I'm

0:22:49.884 --> 0:22:53.004
<v Speaker 1>starting to get into basketball night because of you. I'm

0:22:53.044 --> 0:22:56.804
<v Speaker 1>only starting to see how fun this game is. And

0:22:57.284 --> 0:22:58.884
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to I don't want to get into

0:22:58.964 --> 0:23:01.884
<v Speaker 1>it just to be disappointed, because I think that players

0:23:01.884 --> 0:23:04.524
<v Speaker 1>are trying to you know, tank games or something like that,

0:23:04.764 --> 0:23:08.284
<v Speaker 1>and so I think that it's just so incredibly shortsighted

0:23:08.644 --> 0:23:11.404
<v Speaker 1>to be lean or to say, oh, you know, it's

0:23:11.684 --> 0:23:16.644
<v Speaker 1>okay and harsh is better. You want the fear of

0:23:17.684 --> 0:23:20.204
<v Speaker 1>repercussions to be real, and I think in the past

0:23:20.204 --> 0:23:21.124
<v Speaker 1>that hasn't been the case.

0:23:21.204 --> 0:23:22.844
<v Speaker 2>I think the NBA, I mean it's a little bit

0:23:23.484 --> 0:23:26.244
<v Speaker 2>a little bit trumpy in the sense that like, hey, look,

0:23:26.924 --> 0:23:28.724
<v Speaker 2>deny it and then when people are paying attention on

0:23:28.724 --> 0:23:30.724
<v Speaker 2>a Friday, put out some press release so it's been solved,

0:23:30.804 --> 0:23:32.844
<v Speaker 2>or suspend somebody again. Like you know, if you've ever

0:23:32.844 --> 0:23:35.244
<v Speaker 2>been like a PR situation or PR crisis of any kind,

0:23:35.364 --> 0:23:38.004
<v Speaker 2>Like people have short memories. The new cycle is busy.

0:23:38.324 --> 0:23:40.164
<v Speaker 2>There's lots of exciting things that are happening at any

0:23:40.164 --> 0:23:42.604
<v Speaker 2>given time in the NBA or in the world. Right,

0:23:43.524 --> 0:23:51.404
<v Speaker 2>but it kind of has like a cumulative effect. Right,

0:23:53.964 --> 0:23:54.364
<v Speaker 2>we'll be.

0:23:54.324 --> 0:23:55.124
<v Speaker 1>Back right after this.

0:24:05.924 --> 0:24:09.164
<v Speaker 2>You know you mentioned tennis. You know the reason why

0:24:09.204 --> 0:24:12.844
<v Speaker 2>best holds vulnerable Number one. These bookmakers are turning a

0:24:12.844 --> 0:24:15.964
<v Speaker 2>team sport into an individual sport. So it's not just

0:24:15.964 --> 0:24:18.644
<v Speaker 2>the fact that like, so, like you know, Jalen Brunson,

0:24:18.684 --> 0:24:20.884
<v Speaker 2>the Near Knicks Blinkard, one of my favorite players, is

0:24:20.924 --> 0:24:23.244
<v Speaker 2>spoken about how like people will be chripping at him

0:24:23.444 --> 0:24:25.964
<v Speaker 2>from the sidelines. But like, Jalen, you're supposed to score

0:24:26.444 --> 0:24:28.364
<v Speaker 2>twenty two points and you have twenty one. You know,

0:24:28.404 --> 0:24:30.124
<v Speaker 2>what the fuck's going on? Right, and that kind of thing,

0:24:30.164 --> 0:24:32.604
<v Speaker 2>you know, get like death threats and nasty messages and

0:24:32.644 --> 0:24:35.204
<v Speaker 2>so like, Yeah, one of the protections in a team

0:24:35.244 --> 0:24:38.844
<v Speaker 2>sport is that if one conspirator or a couple are cheating,

0:24:39.804 --> 0:24:41.404
<v Speaker 2>it certainly shifts the odds and that that you have

0:24:41.444 --> 0:24:44.964
<v Speaker 2>a very profitable bet. But like famously, sometimes these things

0:24:45.004 --> 0:24:47.844
<v Speaker 2>don't work. Right. There was a Boston College college cheating

0:24:47.884 --> 0:24:50.204
<v Speaker 2>scandal which did involve the Mafia in the nineteen seventies,

0:24:50.244 --> 0:24:52.484
<v Speaker 2>but like you know, only like one and a half

0:24:52.524 --> 0:24:54.724
<v Speaker 2>players were doing it, and they, like, I think the

0:24:54.764 --> 0:24:57.924
<v Speaker 2>Mafia didn't actually win the majority of its bets, right,

0:24:59.244 --> 0:25:01.564
<v Speaker 2>So the fact that you're kind of turning a team

0:25:01.604 --> 0:25:05.324
<v Speaker 2>sport into an individual sport with prop bets is problematic too.

0:25:05.364 --> 0:25:07.764
<v Speaker 2>But I want to go at like, why do you

0:25:07.804 --> 0:25:13.084
<v Speaker 2>think Terryer made one hundred and fifteen more than that

0:25:13.164 --> 0:25:15.364
<v Speaker 2>made over one hundred million dollars in his career. Right, yeah,

0:25:15.444 --> 0:25:18.764
<v Speaker 2>Chauncey Billups probably similar current head coach. I'm Terry gets

0:25:18.764 --> 0:25:20.364
<v Speaker 2>paid pretty well a lot, so we can do speaking

0:25:20.404 --> 0:25:23.484
<v Speaker 2>gigs and advertisements whatever else. Why do you think, Maria,

0:25:24.044 --> 0:25:27.844
<v Speaker 2>people like that are participating in these in these schemes?

0:25:28.284 --> 0:25:30.244
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, well you wouldn't think they were desperate. Frank come,

0:25:30.284 --> 0:25:31.804
<v Speaker 2>you never know when somebody has a gambling problem or

0:25:31.844 --> 0:25:34.124
<v Speaker 2>another type of problem. But why do you think they're

0:25:34.164 --> 0:25:34.564
<v Speaker 2>doing this?

0:25:35.484 --> 0:25:37.524
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think I think it depends on the

0:25:37.604 --> 0:25:42.324
<v Speaker 1>exact situation, but I think oftentimes it's not for the money, right,

0:25:42.444 --> 0:25:45.244
<v Speaker 1>So for someone like Terry, maybe it's to feel important

0:25:45.284 --> 0:25:47.844
<v Speaker 1>and feel like he has influenced and like be a

0:25:48.204 --> 0:25:51.004
<v Speaker 1>cool dude for his friends, right, because a lot of

0:25:51.004 --> 0:25:53.484
<v Speaker 1>his stuff when I was reading the indictments, it was

0:25:53.484 --> 0:25:56.724
<v Speaker 1>giving tips to like childhood friends or you know, homeboys

0:25:57.164 --> 0:25:59.804
<v Speaker 1>and trying to try to help them out, which is

0:25:59.804 --> 0:26:02.004
<v Speaker 1>why it wasn't huge amounts of money, right, This is

0:26:02.004 --> 0:26:05.204
<v Speaker 1>why we're not We're not talking millions or it was

0:26:05.404 --> 0:26:08.604
<v Speaker 1>smaller bets. And I think that I think that that

0:26:08.724 --> 0:26:12.004
<v Speaker 1>kind of image creation, like I'm the chill dude who can, like,

0:26:12.604 --> 0:26:15.764
<v Speaker 1>you know, be cool. I think that that's actually a

0:26:15.884 --> 0:26:19.084
<v Speaker 1>huge incentive for people. And I don't know much about

0:26:19.084 --> 0:26:22.644
<v Speaker 1>his career or anything like that, but it seems and

0:26:22.804 --> 0:26:24.444
<v Speaker 1>please correct me if I'm wrong, that it's not like

0:26:24.524 --> 0:26:26.844
<v Speaker 1>he's a top tier player who is always you know,

0:26:27.124 --> 0:26:29.684
<v Speaker 1>who people are talking about and they're like, yeah, look

0:26:29.684 --> 0:26:32.324
<v Speaker 1>at him. Go. So it's a way of, you know,

0:26:32.444 --> 0:26:34.804
<v Speaker 1>kind of propping up your ego in those situations. Now,

0:26:34.844 --> 0:26:37.644
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people who were top tier players. And

0:26:37.684 --> 0:26:40.644
<v Speaker 1>by the way, this talk this is not just sports.

0:26:40.724 --> 0:26:43.124
<v Speaker 1>This is true of poker, This is true of a

0:26:43.124 --> 0:26:47.124
<v Speaker 1>lot of things. If they feel like either they're losing

0:26:47.164 --> 0:26:51.484
<v Speaker 1>their edge or like they're they're about to or they're

0:26:51.524 --> 0:26:54.564
<v Speaker 1>not quite sure, cheating is a way to make certain

0:26:54.764 --> 0:26:56.764
<v Speaker 1>that you at least make some money, right, to make

0:26:56.804 --> 0:27:01.004
<v Speaker 1>certain you win, to kind of solidify that like, oh,

0:27:01.164 --> 0:27:02.764
<v Speaker 1>you know, I will for sure.

0:27:02.804 --> 0:27:04.604
<v Speaker 2>Everybody else is doing it, right, you know, you feel

0:27:04.604 --> 0:27:05.924
<v Speaker 2>like everybody else is doing it, I have to do,

0:27:06.004 --> 0:27:06.724
<v Speaker 2>you know, the number one.

0:27:06.844 --> 0:27:11.004
<v Speaker 1>So that's yeah, absolutely, that's that's kind of the ants Armstrong, right, Like,

0:27:11.324 --> 0:27:13.684
<v Speaker 1>why why is someone like Land's armstrong.

0:27:14.084 --> 0:27:16.044
<v Speaker 2>Barry Bonds and baseball was one of the best players

0:27:16.044 --> 0:27:19.044
<v Speaker 2>in the league before steroids, and and like, well fuck

0:27:19.124 --> 0:27:23.724
<v Speaker 2>these yeah, fuck these guys like Mark maguire for.

0:27:23.844 --> 0:27:27.604
<v Speaker 1>Sure, Yeah, for sure. And then some people just get

0:27:27.644 --> 0:27:29.844
<v Speaker 1>off on it like should be perfectly honest, Like some

0:27:29.884 --> 0:27:33.044
<v Speaker 1>people like the idea that like I'm pulling one over

0:27:33.084 --> 0:27:36.164
<v Speaker 1>on people, like I'm in charge. Maybe someone like Terry

0:27:36.204 --> 0:27:40.124
<v Speaker 1>like feels slight or even Chauncey feels slighted by the league,

0:27:40.164 --> 0:27:43.204
<v Speaker 1>like they didn't appreciate me enough, like they didn't value

0:27:43.244 --> 0:27:45.484
<v Speaker 1>me enough, Like they didn't pay me quite enough for

0:27:45.644 --> 0:27:48.124
<v Speaker 1>whatever they did this bad thing to me. I don't

0:27:48.164 --> 0:27:50.364
<v Speaker 1>like what they do with X or why. So a

0:27:50.364 --> 0:27:52.724
<v Speaker 1>lot of times there's a lot of work on this.

0:27:53.164 --> 0:27:55.764
<v Speaker 1>When people can find an excuse in their head, you know,

0:27:55.844 --> 0:28:00.164
<v Speaker 1>why they're not adequately valued, why they're you know, why

0:28:00.164 --> 0:28:02.324
<v Speaker 1>they're being overlooked, something like that, then they want to

0:28:02.364 --> 0:28:05.644
<v Speaker 1>say fuck you to whoever is doing that, whether it's

0:28:05.724 --> 0:28:08.684
<v Speaker 1>the league, whether it's the company they work for. So

0:28:08.724 --> 0:28:12.164
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people justify you know, stealing everything from

0:28:12.204 --> 0:28:15.844
<v Speaker 1>like taking office supplies home to actually you know stealing.

0:28:16.644 --> 0:28:19.084
<v Speaker 1>Once you get that rationalization in your head, like some

0:28:19.124 --> 0:28:23.044
<v Speaker 1>people would just easily cross that line. And then so

0:28:23.084 --> 0:28:24.724
<v Speaker 1>it's like kind of sticking it to the man in

0:28:24.804 --> 0:28:27.724
<v Speaker 1>certain ways. And you also think, like you rationalize it

0:28:27.764 --> 0:28:30.164
<v Speaker 1>away to say that it is kind of a victimist crime,

0:28:30.244 --> 0:28:33.164
<v Speaker 1>like I'm helping out like myself and I'm helping out

0:28:33.524 --> 0:28:36.644
<v Speaker 1>you know, my boys or whatever it is, and like

0:28:37.004 --> 0:28:39.044
<v Speaker 1>they're a big corporation they can take it. Or in

0:28:39.084 --> 0:28:41.564
<v Speaker 1>the case of poker, like come on, like they get

0:28:41.604 --> 0:28:45.124
<v Speaker 1>the honor of playing with me, they get the celebrity

0:28:45.884 --> 0:28:48.444
<v Speaker 1>status by being in this game, and I'm giving them

0:28:48.484 --> 0:28:51.004
<v Speaker 1>something back, so I'll take their money. They're paying for

0:28:51.044 --> 0:28:54.524
<v Speaker 1>the experience. Right, You get all of these rationalizations in

0:28:54.564 --> 0:28:57.004
<v Speaker 1>your head that make you do it. And I think

0:28:57.044 --> 0:29:00.124
<v Speaker 1>that people when they say, oh, but like they're not stupid,

0:29:00.164 --> 0:29:02.444
<v Speaker 1>like they wouldn't risk it all for this, Actually yes

0:29:02.484 --> 0:29:05.764
<v Speaker 1>they would because they don't think they would be caught. Right, Like,

0:29:06.044 --> 0:29:08.244
<v Speaker 1>all of these things went on for over a year,

0:29:08.444 --> 0:29:12.124
<v Speaker 1>it sounds like multiple years. And if the more you

0:29:12.124 --> 0:29:13.924
<v Speaker 1>can get away with it, right, if you're not caught

0:29:13.924 --> 0:29:16.004
<v Speaker 1>the first time, if you're not caught the second time,

0:29:16.324 --> 0:29:19.244
<v Speaker 1>you start thinking that you're invincible, and you start getting

0:29:19.244 --> 0:29:22.804
<v Speaker 1>this thing like you know I won't be caught, Like

0:29:22.844 --> 0:29:25.684
<v Speaker 1>everything is fine and I can keep doing this, So

0:29:25.724 --> 0:29:28.164
<v Speaker 1>you actually think your risk is much lower than it is.

0:29:28.644 --> 0:29:31.444
<v Speaker 1>And even if I'm caught, there's going to be a

0:29:31.444 --> 0:29:33.684
<v Speaker 1>slap on the wrist. They'll say they investigated me and

0:29:33.724 --> 0:29:36.924
<v Speaker 1>it was fine. They didn't find anything suspicious, like my

0:29:37.004 --> 0:29:40.244
<v Speaker 1>leg really was injured or whatever it is. So the

0:29:40.324 --> 0:29:43.484
<v Speaker 1>repercussions are not really going to be serious enough, and

0:29:43.524 --> 0:29:45.964
<v Speaker 1>I'll continue doing what I'm doing. So I think all

0:29:46.044 --> 0:29:48.964
<v Speaker 1>of these things are just layered one on top of

0:29:48.964 --> 0:29:51.924
<v Speaker 1>the other and are play in both of these situations,

0:29:51.924 --> 0:29:53.244
<v Speaker 1>both of these indictments.

0:29:53.324 --> 0:29:58.444
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, look, one one way you can defend the

0:29:58.484 --> 0:30:02.404
<v Speaker 2>big draft Kings, Fanduels, Caesars and GM's of the world, right,

0:30:02.484 --> 0:30:05.284
<v Speaker 2>is by saying that like, they are much better equipped

0:30:05.964 --> 0:30:08.524
<v Speaker 2>to detect this and then either incentivized or required to

0:30:08.564 --> 0:30:11.364
<v Speaker 2>report it when they do in suspicious activity. Right. And

0:30:11.524 --> 0:30:14.124
<v Speaker 2>so first of all, you know they are not doing

0:30:14.364 --> 0:30:18.684
<v Speaker 2>bookmaking in the traditional robust way because you have these

0:30:18.724 --> 0:30:23.284
<v Speaker 2>sharp bookmakers, and you have bookmakers. I'll mention Draft Kings,

0:30:23.284 --> 0:30:25.084
<v Speaker 2>which is a book markets regarded as being at least

0:30:25.084 --> 0:30:26.964
<v Speaker 2>when I was spending the NBA a couple years ago. Now,

0:30:26.964 --> 0:30:27.524
<v Speaker 2>all that's sharp.

0:30:27.604 --> 0:30:27.684
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:30:27.724 --> 0:30:30.884
<v Speaker 2>They're a retail sports book, and their business model is

0:30:31.484 --> 0:30:36.844
<v Speaker 2>customer discrimination and differentiation, where if you're a VIP at

0:30:36.884 --> 0:30:38.644
<v Speaker 2>a place like Draft Kings, you know, at a friend

0:30:38.684 --> 0:30:42.004
<v Speaker 2>who literally get cases of his favorite Cabernet mail to

0:30:42.044 --> 0:30:44.884
<v Speaker 2>his house, and like you know and like front row

0:30:44.924 --> 0:30:48.764
<v Speaker 2>seats for New York Rangers games and and things like that, right,

0:30:48.804 --> 0:30:50.964
<v Speaker 2>and you know, at some level of access you get

0:30:51.284 --> 0:30:55.284
<v Speaker 2>private jets to the Super Bowl or whatever, right, and

0:30:55.324 --> 0:31:00.364
<v Speaker 2>they can make infinity dollars basically, whereas I am limited

0:31:00.364 --> 0:31:02.244
<v Speaker 2>by most of the sports books. And I'm not I'm

0:31:02.284 --> 0:31:03.684
<v Speaker 2>not that good. I mean I've won a little bit

0:31:03.684 --> 0:31:05.964
<v Speaker 2>of money at sports betting, right, but like not a pro.

0:31:06.084 --> 0:31:09.884
<v Speaker 2>I'm just trying to trying to be good. Nobody should

0:31:09.884 --> 0:31:12.684
<v Speaker 2>be taking one hundred thousand dollars worth of action on

0:31:12.844 --> 0:31:16.884
<v Speaker 2>Terry Rogier under rebounds or whatever. Right. The only reason

0:31:16.924 --> 0:31:20.884
<v Speaker 2>someone would bet that is because they have inside knowledge,

0:31:20.924 --> 0:31:23.484
<v Speaker 2>or maybe maybe if they have a very particular model. Right,

0:31:23.484 --> 0:31:25.004
<v Speaker 2>But like you don't want to. You don't want some

0:31:25.044 --> 0:31:27.564
<v Speaker 2>super sharp mi I T kid with a model to

0:31:27.644 --> 0:31:31.044
<v Speaker 2>exploit this obscure part of your menu, right, And you

0:31:31.084 --> 0:31:35.044
<v Speaker 2>don't want people inside information betting, but they figure that, Okay,

0:31:35.084 --> 0:31:38.444
<v Speaker 2>well we know who our good and bad customers are,

0:31:38.444 --> 0:31:40.204
<v Speaker 2>and we don't want to fuck with our with our

0:31:40.324 --> 0:31:42.364
<v Speaker 2>vps as they're so called, right, they can do what

0:31:42.404 --> 0:31:43.844
<v Speaker 2>they want, and yeah, I mean now then they might

0:31:43.844 --> 0:31:46.644
<v Speaker 2>get a tip, but like so they're not. It's not

0:31:46.724 --> 0:31:48.964
<v Speaker 2>a robust form of bookmaking, right, It's a form of

0:31:48.964 --> 0:31:53.284
<v Speaker 2>book maanking that relies on on customer identification and like so,

0:31:53.484 --> 0:31:57.644
<v Speaker 2>like that's part of why I'm less sympathetic, and because

0:31:57.724 --> 0:32:02.044
<v Speaker 2>like when the gambling companies, you know, in general, when

0:32:02.084 --> 0:32:05.844
<v Speaker 2>you pass legislation, then you kind of pass the skeleton

0:32:05.844 --> 0:32:09.324
<v Speaker 2>of the legislation, and then the lobbyists and the indus,

0:32:09.404 --> 0:32:11.564
<v Speaker 2>if you interest do their work to interpret that legislation

0:32:11.644 --> 0:32:16.764
<v Speaker 2>in ways that like is shockingly favorable to those vested interests. Right.

0:32:16.844 --> 0:32:18.764
<v Speaker 2>You do have some states Massachusetts now and New York

0:32:18.804 --> 0:32:20.884
<v Speaker 2>has looked into like, okay, should really be able to

0:32:20.964 --> 0:32:23.764
<v Speaker 2>let some people, but literally ten dollars on a game

0:32:24.324 --> 0:32:27.404
<v Speaker 2>a million dollars in the same game, probably not right.

0:32:27.684 --> 0:32:30.204
<v Speaker 2>But like, if you're drafting regulations, like I think the

0:32:30.244 --> 0:32:32.484
<v Speaker 2>average sports better doesn't realize that if you are if

0:32:32.524 --> 0:32:34.684
<v Speaker 2>they think you're good, they will limit you. If they

0:32:34.724 --> 0:32:37.004
<v Speaker 2>think you're good, they will not take meaningful amounts of

0:32:37.044 --> 0:32:39.884
<v Speaker 2>money from you in terms of action. Right. By the way,

0:32:39.884 --> 0:32:42.644
<v Speaker 2>when you look at the ads for sports betting, if

0:32:42.684 --> 0:32:44.764
<v Speaker 2>you come back to the ads for daily fantasy sports,

0:32:45.364 --> 0:32:48.124
<v Speaker 2>they were marketed as a game of skill. Right, you are.

0:32:48.244 --> 0:32:50.964
<v Speaker 2>Daily fantasy sports is where you draft a team, and

0:32:51.004 --> 0:32:53.164
<v Speaker 2>you draft a team a real player that you compete

0:32:53.164 --> 0:32:55.844
<v Speaker 2>against other people, and the house takes a cut or

0:32:55.844 --> 0:32:57.684
<v Speaker 2>a rake like poker or something. Right, they have no

0:32:57.764 --> 0:33:00.484
<v Speaker 2>interest in particular and who wins that outcome, And they'd

0:33:00.484 --> 0:33:02.084
<v Speaker 2>say it's a game of skill. The ads would like

0:33:02.084 --> 0:33:05.724
<v Speaker 2>literally just say you are Joe Schmoe sitting in your office,

0:33:05.804 --> 0:33:08.684
<v Speaker 2>drone job. Right, go to DraftKings or FanDuel. Right, you

0:33:08.724 --> 0:33:11.124
<v Speaker 2>can win millions, have and sleep a Supermodels. It was

0:33:11.124 --> 0:33:13.084
<v Speaker 2>like it was like not that subtle because you're smart

0:33:13.164 --> 0:33:16.044
<v Speaker 2>and they're dumb. It was like very unsettled, appealing to

0:33:16.084 --> 0:33:19.124
<v Speaker 2>the male ego. And now they don't do that, right,

0:33:19.164 --> 0:33:20.364
<v Speaker 2>They don't want to advertize that as a game of

0:33:20.404 --> 0:33:22.524
<v Speaker 2>skill because if they think they're skilled, then they won't

0:33:22.564 --> 0:33:24.484
<v Speaker 2>let you bet very much. Right, And so like I

0:33:24.524 --> 0:33:27.004
<v Speaker 2>mean that's you know, that whole thing is is is

0:33:27.084 --> 0:33:29.324
<v Speaker 2>kind of bullshit. It's not a unique innovation, I guess

0:33:29.324 --> 0:33:31.684
<v Speaker 2>of like American sports betting lines, but like, you know,

0:33:32.084 --> 0:33:34.444
<v Speaker 2>British companies were notorious for doing this too, but like,

0:33:34.644 --> 0:33:36.844
<v Speaker 2>but still it's moved a long way from the traditional

0:33:37.564 --> 0:33:39.324
<v Speaker 2>form of bookmaking. And the other thing to people don't

0:33:39.324 --> 0:33:41.764
<v Speaker 2>realize is like sports betting was for many years in

0:33:41.844 --> 0:33:46.564
<v Speaker 2>Vegas what was called an amenity AMEI and it y right,

0:33:47.364 --> 0:33:48.964
<v Speaker 2>you're in the middle of the deserts, you have lots

0:33:48.964 --> 0:33:52.884
<v Speaker 2>of physical space. You know. Sometimes people want to be

0:33:52.924 --> 0:33:55.324
<v Speaker 2>in a casino and actually you know, so if you're

0:33:55.324 --> 0:33:58.604
<v Speaker 2>in a casino and you want to lose not that

0:33:58.724 --> 0:34:02.644
<v Speaker 2>much money, right, actually, one of the better things to

0:34:02.684 --> 0:34:07.644
<v Speaker 2>do might be to bet a thousand dollars on an

0:34:07.764 --> 0:34:11.484
<v Speaker 2>NFL game. If you're bet naively that you know that

0:34:11.484 --> 0:34:14.284
<v Speaker 2>that has a negative expected value of forty six bucks,

0:34:14.404 --> 0:34:19.524
<v Speaker 2>right typical point spread, hold margins right for forty six bucks,

0:34:19.524 --> 0:34:21.724
<v Speaker 2>you know, three and a half hours of entertainment watching

0:34:21.764 --> 0:34:24.244
<v Speaker 2>the game in the sportsbook and like getting three drinks

0:34:24.244 --> 0:34:26.164
<v Speaker 2>and sweating with your friends or whatever. Rate Like, it's

0:34:26.204 --> 0:34:28.124
<v Speaker 2>actually not that bad, but it was kind of seen

0:34:28.124 --> 0:34:30.804
<v Speaker 2>as an amenity, right, and there's kind of this fastikas

0:34:30.804 --> 0:34:32.884
<v Speaker 2>some guys can beat the lines, right and like, but

0:34:32.964 --> 0:34:34.764
<v Speaker 2>it's moved away from that model. And by the way,

0:34:34.804 --> 0:34:38.324
<v Speaker 2>but it was one percent of one percent of revenues

0:34:38.364 --> 0:34:41.044
<v Speaker 2>is from the sports book, right, it was almost a

0:34:41.124 --> 0:34:43.804
<v Speaker 2>lost leader. And the notion that like you can have

0:34:43.884 --> 0:34:47.564
<v Speaker 2>this market where like sports betting is huge and yet

0:34:47.604 --> 0:34:51.244
<v Speaker 2>you limit sharp betters is is I don't know, it's

0:34:51.324 --> 0:34:54.404
<v Speaker 2>kind of at best, at best unproven.

0:34:54.124 --> 0:34:56.844
<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, No, I mean I think that one of

0:34:56.844 --> 0:35:00.084
<v Speaker 1>the things that these indictments have shown us is that,

0:35:00.524 --> 0:35:03.444
<v Speaker 1>you know, we need a more centralized, rigorous approach to

0:35:04.164 --> 0:35:06.324
<v Speaker 1>how do we, you know, how do we regulate this, right,

0:35:06.404 --> 0:35:09.564
<v Speaker 1>how do we what kinds of supports bets for which amount?

0:35:10.084 --> 0:35:14.524
<v Speaker 1>Like can we standardize something that actually upholds the integrity

0:35:14.524 --> 0:35:18.164
<v Speaker 1>of the games, that will avoid situations that you know,

0:35:18.284 --> 0:35:21.764
<v Speaker 1>turn team sports into individual sports, that kind of change

0:35:21.764 --> 0:35:25.844
<v Speaker 1>those incentive structures around It's it's a tough ask, right because,

0:35:25.884 --> 0:35:28.484
<v Speaker 1>as you say, Nate, like, there are you know, various

0:35:28.484 --> 0:35:32.444
<v Speaker 1>forces pulling you in various directions. But I think it's doable,

0:35:32.484 --> 0:35:35.444
<v Speaker 1>and I think that, you know, it's something that people

0:35:35.484 --> 0:35:37.524
<v Speaker 1>need to sit down and think about. But it's not

0:35:37.524 --> 0:35:39.844
<v Speaker 1>like an easy band aid fix like oh, you know

0:35:39.924 --> 0:35:41.964
<v Speaker 1>we need to just like limit all bets to X

0:35:42.204 --> 0:35:45.124
<v Speaker 1>or or do thing. Why. I think it does require

0:35:45.164 --> 0:35:49.164
<v Speaker 1>a nuanced understanding of sports betting, which frankly, I don't

0:35:49.164 --> 0:35:52.124
<v Speaker 1>think a lot of legislators have. Like no, I.

0:35:52.044 --> 0:35:54.164
<v Speaker 2>Wouldn't think so either, and you know, and frankly the

0:35:54.164 --> 0:35:56.204
<v Speaker 2>media doesn't either. I mean the media has default toward

0:35:56.204 --> 0:35:58.764
<v Speaker 2>like scoldiness about this, and like exactly if you don't

0:35:58.804 --> 0:36:01.164
<v Speaker 2>have those legal sites, a lot of it goes underground.

0:36:01.204 --> 0:36:03.404
<v Speaker 2>On one hundred percent, I mean that's absolutely thing, right.

0:36:03.644 --> 0:36:05.284
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm actually betting in the NFL this year.

0:36:05.404 --> 0:36:07.684
<v Speaker 2>Believe me, Maria. I know how, and I have at

0:36:07.684 --> 0:36:11.124
<v Speaker 2>some points in the past like made bets set in

0:36:11.164 --> 0:36:13.004
<v Speaker 2>the grey market using crypto and things like that. I

0:36:13.004 --> 0:36:15.284
<v Speaker 2>know how to do that. It's just not worth the trouble, right,

0:36:15.364 --> 0:36:18.204
<v Speaker 2>you know, whereas if it's it's it's Draft Kings or FanDuel, right.

0:36:18.244 --> 0:36:20.284
<v Speaker 2>I mean literally, even like the uspit in the NBA,

0:36:20.324 --> 0:36:21.564
<v Speaker 2>I was like staying at the Wind. I guess it's

0:36:21.564 --> 0:36:23.884
<v Speaker 2>for the Wind December poker tournament, right, And there's like

0:36:24.404 --> 0:36:26.524
<v Speaker 2>here's an NBA bet. I'm want to bet eleven hundred

0:36:26.524 --> 0:36:30.044
<v Speaker 2>dollars and as an expected value of like one percent,

0:36:30.204 --> 0:36:32.684
<v Speaker 2>probably right, so the infected value is like twelve bucks, right?

0:36:33.164 --> 0:36:36.404
<v Speaker 2>Do I want to go down to the fucking sports

0:36:36.404 --> 0:36:39.604
<v Speaker 2>book window and like place this bet right and feel

0:36:39.604 --> 0:36:42.364
<v Speaker 2>like a d gen? No, it's only worth twelve dollars.

0:36:42.364 --> 0:36:45.564
<v Speaker 2>I'll stay in my room. And yeah, So there's like

0:36:45.644 --> 0:36:47.484
<v Speaker 2>shit like that where like even that friction of like

0:36:48.204 --> 0:36:50.764
<v Speaker 2>the ease of online betting. So, yeah, there are few categories,

0:36:50.804 --> 0:36:53.124
<v Speaker 2>you know. One one has to do with like you

0:36:53.124 --> 0:36:55.844
<v Speaker 2>have to limit the menu of bets, right, if you

0:36:55.884 --> 0:36:58.284
<v Speaker 2>want to bread on Lebron James or Nikola Yoki, just

0:36:58.284 --> 0:36:58.924
<v Speaker 2>gonna do fine.

0:36:58.964 --> 0:37:01.444
<v Speaker 1>Right, But like that, Yeah, that sounds like low hanging fruit.

0:37:01.684 --> 0:37:05.004
<v Speaker 1>I think that that's low hanging fruit. That that's something

0:37:05.004 --> 0:37:08.124
<v Speaker 1>that could immediately be done. Right, Yes, the menus should

0:37:08.164 --> 0:37:08.684
<v Speaker 1>be limited.

0:37:09.964 --> 0:37:13.444
<v Speaker 2>I think you need some constraints on this, limiting your

0:37:13.444 --> 0:37:17.444
<v Speaker 2>price discrimination. Right, I'd go radically, I guess I'm self interested.

0:37:17.524 --> 0:37:21.404
<v Speaker 2>I'd go radically and say everywhere gets the same price. Right,

0:37:21.644 --> 0:37:24.244
<v Speaker 2>you post sublimits, you know, if you want to say, okay,

0:37:24.324 --> 0:37:26.324
<v Speaker 2>we can have a spread of two x or four

0:37:26.484 --> 0:37:29.644
<v Speaker 2>X or five x or something. Okay, that's fine, right,

0:37:29.684 --> 0:37:33.884
<v Speaker 2>but like it lets you lets you put irresponsible lines

0:37:34.004 --> 0:37:38.444
<v Speaker 2>up that are subject to cheating or manipulation, right if

0:37:38.484 --> 0:37:40.804
<v Speaker 2>you only take bets from people who you think are

0:37:40.844 --> 0:37:42.684
<v Speaker 2>going to lose on them, right, It's like it's it's

0:37:42.724 --> 0:37:45.884
<v Speaker 2>like one of these carnival games where where let's ease

0:37:45.924 --> 0:37:47.644
<v Speaker 2>you to like, you know, throw the ball at the

0:37:47.644 --> 0:37:49.764
<v Speaker 2>bullseye and get the free stuffed animal. But like it's

0:37:49.764 --> 0:37:53.404
<v Speaker 2>actually pretty difficult, and number three is probably like, you know,

0:37:53.884 --> 0:37:58.324
<v Speaker 2>creating more friction. If you had a twenty four hour

0:37:58.644 --> 0:38:02.124
<v Speaker 2>winning carry between you deposits and money and when you bet, right,

0:38:02.244 --> 0:38:05.324
<v Speaker 2>that would create meaningful friction if you required you say, okay,

0:38:05.404 --> 0:38:07.964
<v Speaker 2>you know in the UK, don't its is still true?

0:38:07.964 --> 0:38:09.404
<v Speaker 2>I guess it must still be true, right you don't.

0:38:09.524 --> 0:38:12.844
<v Speaker 2>It's like a Ladbrokes shop, right, you're chippy and then

0:38:12.884 --> 0:38:15.964
<v Speaker 2>you get your go to the betting window and whatever,

0:38:16.084 --> 0:38:18.684
<v Speaker 2>right you know saying okay, you know you want to bet,

0:38:18.684 --> 0:38:21.284
<v Speaker 2>you just have to go to a physical location and

0:38:21.324 --> 0:38:24.724
<v Speaker 2>then add some additional protection. You can know your customer laws.

0:38:24.764 --> 0:38:27.164
<v Speaker 2>You know, if somebody seems like they're got crative line

0:38:27.204 --> 0:38:29.564
<v Speaker 2>or abusive, right, you can deny their action that kind

0:38:29.604 --> 0:38:32.124
<v Speaker 2>of thing, right, and so like you know, so yeah

0:38:32.164 --> 0:38:33.324
<v Speaker 2>you want I bet okay, And there's gonna be a

0:38:33.324 --> 0:38:36.164
<v Speaker 2>little DraftKings office and then throughout New York and maybe

0:38:36.164 --> 0:38:37.564
<v Speaker 2>it's a nice little barther if you want to watch

0:38:37.564 --> 0:38:38.964
<v Speaker 2>your games, right, but you have to physically mean a

0:38:38.964 --> 0:38:40.684
<v Speaker 2>location to bet. You know, I wouldn't go that far.

0:38:40.684 --> 0:38:43.524
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't advocate for all of this, but like, but

0:38:45.164 --> 0:38:47.844
<v Speaker 2>you know, public opinions turning against this, right, people are

0:38:48.284 --> 0:38:50.244
<v Speaker 2>for both getting that reasons. People are prudish, but like

0:38:51.924 --> 0:38:53.924
<v Speaker 2>the industry I think has been short sighted. It was

0:38:53.964 --> 0:38:56.284
<v Speaker 2>that it was a power grab and or a money grab, right,

0:38:56.684 --> 0:38:58.204
<v Speaker 2>and now they're paying the price for that.

0:38:58.844 --> 0:39:02.124
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So I think that are three major recommendations, because

0:39:02.164 --> 0:39:06.084
<v Speaker 1>I do agree with the framework. Is one limiting menu

0:39:06.244 --> 0:39:09.764
<v Speaker 1>of bets, so basically actually taking a look at what

0:39:09.844 --> 0:39:11.684
<v Speaker 1>makes sense, what doesn't make sense, what's kind of in

0:39:11.724 --> 0:39:16.644
<v Speaker 1>the spirit of the game versus not to transparency and standardization.

0:39:17.764 --> 0:39:22.244
<v Speaker 1>And three adding some friction in for for the ability

0:39:22.284 --> 0:39:25.924
<v Speaker 1>to place bets so that people aren't kind of in

0:39:25.924 --> 0:39:28.804
<v Speaker 1>the spiral where like you know, they they get into

0:39:29.564 --> 0:39:32.044
<v Speaker 1>they get into situations that they can't then get out of.

0:39:32.084 --> 0:39:34.404
<v Speaker 1>I think that these those are kind of three buckets

0:39:34.484 --> 0:39:37.964
<v Speaker 1>that are probably really good places to start so that

0:39:38.604 --> 0:39:43.524
<v Speaker 1>sports betting can regain its good reputation, because kind I

0:39:43.804 --> 0:39:46.924
<v Speaker 1>had a good reputation right, but can can get can

0:39:46.964 --> 0:39:50.244
<v Speaker 1>get public sentiment more on its side. I think that

0:39:50.244 --> 0:39:52.124
<v Speaker 1>that that would be helpful. And I think that if

0:39:52.244 --> 0:39:56.244
<v Speaker 1>those types of improvements come out of this scandal, that

0:39:56.364 --> 0:39:58.884
<v Speaker 1>will be something. On that note night, I wish you

0:39:58.924 --> 0:40:01.564
<v Speaker 1>the best of luck getting out of Mexico.

0:40:01.724 --> 0:40:03.964
<v Speaker 2>I actually can't draft Kings on their runway. If I

0:40:03.964 --> 0:40:07.044
<v Speaker 2>would have fucking gotten like plus behine, your flight will

0:40:07.084 --> 0:40:08.564
<v Speaker 2>not take off tonight right now.

0:40:09.724 --> 0:40:12.684
<v Speaker 1>That'd be great. That'd be great you had some inside information.

0:40:12.884 --> 0:40:15.044
<v Speaker 2>Saying it real. I'll tell you that much.

0:40:15.084 --> 0:40:19.084
<v Speaker 1>For Ria Well, I hope that you this is your

0:40:19.164 --> 0:40:21.764
<v Speaker 1>last night at El Kaminoreal, or that last night was

0:40:21.764 --> 0:40:24.564
<v Speaker 1>your last night, and that tonight you will safely be

0:40:24.844 --> 0:40:34.164
<v Speaker 1>in your New York City apartment. Let us know what

0:40:34.204 --> 0:40:36.164
<v Speaker 1>you think of the show. Reach out to us at

0:40:36.244 --> 0:40:40.524
<v Speaker 1>Risky Business at pushkin dot fm. Risky Business is hosted

0:40:40.524 --> 0:40:42.804
<v Speaker 1>by me Maria Kanakova.

0:40:42.124 --> 0:40:44.884
<v Speaker 2>And by me Nate Silver. The show was a cool

0:40:44.924 --> 0:40:48.884
<v Speaker 2>production of Pushing Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced

0:40:48.884 --> 0:40:53.244
<v Speaker 2>by Isaac Carter. Our associate producer is Sonya gerwit Lydia,

0:40:53.324 --> 0:40:56.204
<v Speaker 2>Jean Kott and Daphne Chen are our editors, and our

0:40:56.244 --> 0:41:00.084
<v Speaker 2>executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Bruger.

0:41:00.644 --> 0:41:02.884
<v Speaker 1>If you like the show, please rate and review us

0:41:02.884 --> 0:41:05.564
<v Speaker 1>so other people can find us too, But once again,

0:41:05.684 --> 0:41:07.484
<v Speaker 1>only if you like us. We don't want those bad

0:41:07.524 --> 0:41:09.764
<v Speaker 1>reviews out there. Thanks for too again