1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 3: My name is Robert Rant and I am Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 3: And today on Stuff to Blow Your Mind, we are 5 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 3: going to be kicking off a series looking at paddles 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 3: and oars, rowing and paddling the boats of the ancient world. 7 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 3: Rob So you pick this topic out. What got you 8 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 3: thinking about paddles and oars? 9 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 2: Well, I was kind of hungry for another dip into 10 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: the invention style episode that we frequently come back to. 11 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 2: You know, something that talks about generally or as often 12 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: as the case, you know, some sort of ancient technology 13 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 2: and how it comes about, and what what what leads 14 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 2: to these innovations, you know, what is the environment that 15 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: they evolve in and so forth. And I started looking 16 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 2: around of some of my usual primary sources and I 17 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 2: was like, Oh, this looks like the perfect thing to 18 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 2: get into, like getting into the history of these ancient 19 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 2: Mediterranean or powered boats. In many cases we're dealing with warships, 20 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 2: but this would have also applied to varying degrees to 21 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 2: various trade vessels as well. And it's one of those 22 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 2: topics when you really get into it, like all these 23 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 2: different disciplines converge because there's archaeology, modern maritime archaeology, there 24 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 2: is there's of course literary history. There are also all 25 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 2: these enduring mysteries and disagreements throughout the ages about how 26 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 2: to interpret what has been passed down concerning these vessels. 27 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 3: Now with these ancient warships that were powered by many rowers, 28 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 3: you know, and we can talk as we go on 29 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 3: about the different designs there, the different numbers of levels 30 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 3: of rowers and things like that is part of the 31 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 3: idea there that you would have these even in the 32 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,639 Speaker 3: case where it's a boat that could move under sail 33 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 3: power in some cases, but you would transition to ore 34 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 3: power to increase like maneuverability and speed during a battle. 35 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, this is a big part of it. Like 36 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 2: you could you could certainly get by with just sails, 37 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: but having the oars on hand meant that you could 38 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 2: absolutely have the power at your disposal when you needed it, 39 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 2: especially if you're dealing with an environment where the winds 40 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 2: might not cooperate with you. You can't necessarily count on 41 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 2: the winds to be there for that push to the shore. 42 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 2: If you're doing some sort of like a marine landing, 43 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: or you can't depend on the wind to help you 44 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 2: outrun or chase down another vessel. But if you have 45 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 2: your oars, well, then you're only limited by the amount 46 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: of skilled oarsmanship on board your vessel. And I think 47 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 2: that's an important That's one of the things that attracted 48 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 2: me to this too, because I feel like, speaking for myself, 49 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 2: I felt like growing up, I pretty much had a 50 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 2: Scooby Doo level understanding of what it meant to have 51 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 2: or power on a vessel. You know, sort of like 52 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 2: thinking about maybe not Scooby Doo in particular, but various 53 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 2: fictions in which people were captured by you know, some 54 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 2: sort of nefarious enemy thrown into the hold of the 55 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: ship where they have to pull the oars, and you know, 56 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: the idea here is like, oh, and we can easily, 57 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 2: you know, imagine ourselves in that scenario like oh, I 58 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: don't know how to pull an or mean, I've never 59 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: done this before, but now someone's going to whip me 60 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 2: if I don't, Well, why. 61 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 3: Was that Scooby Doo? Does this happen in Scooby Doo? 62 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: I don't know if it happened in Scooby Doo, but 63 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 2: it may have happened in something consumed in that general area. 64 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 2: You know, it probably happened on some of these old cartoons. 65 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 3: Or Scooby and Shaggy would not be good at rowing. 66 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 2: But whatever you're imagining was Scooby Doo and Shaggy thrown 67 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: into the into a ship and made to pull an oar. 68 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 2: Like that's kind of like where my head used to 69 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 2: be concerning this. But when you get into it, especially 70 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 2: in the ancient world, you're not dealing with a bunch 71 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: of like forced amateur oarsmen down there. You're dealing with 72 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: trained oorsmen. And it also non specialized doorsmen. Like it 73 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 2: might be very good, but this is not the only 74 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 2: thing they're going to be called on to do, so, 75 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 2: you know. Suffice to say, I feel like it's a 76 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 2: topic where I had a lot of long standing bits 77 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: of misinformation in my head, you know, and just assumptions 78 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 2: about what this world consisted of, and when you get 79 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: into the details, when you get into what is known 80 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: and even what was written about in the ancient world, 81 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 2: it's a far more complex scenario. Yeah. 82 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 3: I like it when we can learn everything we assumed 83 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 3: was wrong. 84 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, now, I thought an interesting place to kick this 85 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 2: off would be to sort of jump ahead and talk 86 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 2: about one of the more extreme and unsustainable examples of 87 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 2: the technology, sort of like looking at the spruce goose 88 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: before we talk about airplanes in general. 89 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 3: Well, look at the lineage by seeing what's one of 90 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 3: the most ridiculous places that can go right. 91 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: And the place to start is, by all accounts, the 92 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 2: tessar Aranka terrace, which means forty road or simply forty. 93 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: This was an allegedly massive catamaran galley warship, an extreme 94 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: example of a polyrem or mini ORed vessel, and this 95 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 2: was like you can look up pictures of what this 96 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 2: may have looked like. There's a lot of guesswork and 97 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:31,679 Speaker 2: analysis involved here, but think about like an ancient world 98 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 2: aircraft carrier with oars, and you're kind of in the 99 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 2: right zone for this. 100 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 3: The version I'm looking at has like more oars than 101 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 3: you can count sticking out all the sides of it, 102 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 3: and it's got what looks like a giant gramophone horn 103 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 3: on it. I don't know what that's for. 104 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 2: So this would have been the pride and joy of 105 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: the ruler Ptolemy the fourth philopatter that means lover of 106 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 2: his father, which I don't know. It sounds like if 107 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 2: that's your title, now I'm questioning your love for your 108 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 2: father because you're making such a big deal out of it. 109 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 2: But anyway, he was the fourth Ptolemaic pharaoh of Egypt. 110 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 2: A little background. I think we've touched on the Ptolemies 111 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 2: on the show before, but the rule of the Ptolemies began 112 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 2: in three oh five BCE after the collapse of the 113 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: Macedonian rule established by Alexander the Great. When Alexander's expansive 114 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 2: empire collapsed, his followers ended up competing with each other 115 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 2: for the fragmented remains of that empire, and his general 116 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 2: and companion, Ptolemy the First Solder or Ptolemy the Savior, 117 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 2: claimed the Egyptian territory, the Egyptian centered territory, and established 118 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 2: the Ptolemaic kingdom there. So the Ptolemies would rule over 119 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: Egypt as essentially a Hellenistic state for three centuries until 120 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 2: the death of Cleopatra. That's when the Roman Empire conquered 121 00:06:55,120 --> 00:07:00,799 Speaker 2: Egypt in thirty BCE. Historians often point to make Egypt 122 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 2: as the longest and final Egyptian dynasty. During their rule, 123 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 2: they faced constant threats. Like at the very beginning, there 124 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 2: were the wars of the Diodechai. These were the successors 125 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 2: of Alexander, again fighting for the scraps of that empire. 126 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 2: There were multiple wars with the Seleucid Empire and the 127 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 2: Kushite Empire to the south. There were rebellions in southern Egypt, 128 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 2: and then, of course, finally the Roman Empire which conquered them. 129 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,559 Speaker 2: Now coming to Ptolemy, the fourth lover of his father, 130 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: who he would have ruled two twenty one through two 131 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 2: four BCE, generally held up as part of the dynasty's decline. 132 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: Despite some successes in the Fourth Syrian War, it was 133 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 2: a period of rebellion in the south of Egypt, and 134 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: he was often criticized as being far more concerned with luxury, 135 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 2: ceremony and the trappings of empire rather than the severe 136 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 2: work required to prolong its era. But if nothing else, 137 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: he by all accounts had a massive boat, and that 138 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 2: is where the Tesla ronca terras comes into play. Now. 139 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 3: If he had a reputation for being being more concerned 140 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 3: with luxury and ceremony than with practicality does the boat 141 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 3: follow this design? 142 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 2: It seems like most of the sources I've looked at 143 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 2: argue that this is the case. That this was. I've 144 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 2: seen some quibbles, and we'll get into some of this, 145 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: but by and large, a lot of people are like, yeah, 146 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 2: this is exactly the sort of vessel that someone more 147 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 2: concerned with appearances and pomp would would want constructed, A 148 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 2: massive vessel that is maybe not actually an operational war platform, 149 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 2: but just a way to show off how awesome you 150 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 2: are and could potentially be in battle, as long as 151 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: you don't think too hard about how the ship's going 152 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 2: to get around. Okay, let's hear about it, all right. 153 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 2: So I mentioned it has a lot of ores. Depending 154 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 2: on how you try and reconstruct it on paper in 155 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 2: your head, you might have had more more than five 156 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 2: rows of ores. We'll get into the details of that, 157 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: probably more in the next episode. But seven naval rams 158 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 2: and flat on top an enormous aircraft carrier style deck, 159 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 2: and this would have been used to carry or at 160 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 2: least show off troops and or siege equipment. Now, to 161 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: be clear, we have no physical evidence of the Tessar 162 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: Raga teris. We have archaeological evidence of some very old 163 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 2: boats and ships from around the world, and thanks to 164 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 2: twentieth and twenty first century maritime archaeology and all of 165 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 2: its technological innovations, we actually know more than ever before. 166 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 2: I noticed that Michael Levinson had an article in The 167 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: New York Times from earlier this year get the point 168 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 2: that it's a golden age for shipwreck discoveries. We're just 169 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 2: able to see what's down there, detect things, and then 170 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 2: analyze them in ways that we couldn't even do last century, 171 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 2: and last century was a pivotal time for advancing our 172 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,719 Speaker 2: understanding of what came before. Well, it's interesting to think 173 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 2: about because, on one hand, an operational wooden ship, as 174 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 2: I've seen pointed out, is just in a perpetual state 175 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: of decay. I mean, that's why we have the concept 176 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 2: of the ship of theseus. It's constantly rotting. Essentially, it wears, 177 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 2: it breaks, it requires upkeep and replacement, and if left 178 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 2: to the ravages of time, if conditions are not right, 179 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 2: the whole thing is lost. For instance, one of the 180 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 2: main culprits, it's often pointed out, is the shipworm, as 181 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,599 Speaker 2: a simil pullock, a nautical archaeologist at Texas A and 182 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 2: M University and College Station pointed out, and this is 183 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 2: who was citing a that GEO article from twenty fourteen 184 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: titled five Shipwrecks Lost to Time that archaeologists would love 185 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 2: to get their hands on by Jane J. Lee, which 186 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: which does get into some ships from this time period. 187 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 2: But basically the idea is that this is this worm 188 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: is a wood burrowing mollusc. We may have talked about 189 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 2: it on the show. Before they can break down a 190 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 2: submerged wooden vessel apparently in as little as five years. 191 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 2: But the main way that ancient ships survive are by 192 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 2: winding up buried under sediment or buried under their own cargo, 193 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 2: such as you know, a bunch of ceramic andphora, you know, 194 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 2: basically earthenware containers that end up serving as man made 195 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 2: sediment to preserve the portion of the hull underneath it. 196 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 2: If you've watched any documentaries about, you know, ancient Mediterranean shipwrecks, 197 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 2: you've probably seen some footage like this where it looks like, oh, 198 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: it looks like a bunch of urns on the bottom 199 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: of the ocean, and that's essentially what it is. But 200 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: then what is underneath those urns, what else is preserved? 201 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,079 Speaker 2: And sometimes we can learn a lot from what remains beneath. 202 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 2: And this is why harbors, rather than open ocean, are 203 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 2: often considered better hiding places for some of these ancient wrecks. 204 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 2: And there also may be factors related to just how 205 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 2: many of these ships operated and so forth, and how 206 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 2: they operated. But yeah, it's like it's one of these 207 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 2: these cases where, yeah, we have one particular giant vessel 208 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 2: that one's lost to history. But in terms of more 209 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 2: common vessels of this type, yeah, we do have examples 210 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 2: of shipwrecks we've been able to find and learn from, 211 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 2: you know, especially in recent years. But as with the 212 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: fossil record, you know, depending on what we have to 213 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 2: depend on, has various holes in it. You know, we 214 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 2: have physical evidence of ships, and then we also have 215 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 2: the written word to turn to. But as Christopher E. 216 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 2: Choffen discusses in the Tessaranka Terras reconsidered this is this 217 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 2: was a nineteen ninety one through nineteen ninety three a 218 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,839 Speaker 2: publication of Bulletin of the Institute of Classical Studies. Technical 219 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 2: information in these ancient texts is uncommon, so it's you'll 220 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 2: have mentions of ships, but you know how many times 221 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 2: do they stop to really roll out the details and 222 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 2: the stats for a given vessel. But I guess the 223 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 2: thing about the about a ship this big is that 224 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 2: there would be some descriptions, some stats. It's out there 225 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 2: since it is so novel. You know, it's kind of 226 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 2: like if you look in like biblical texts, are you 227 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 2: going to have this, you know, actual length and with 228 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 2: descriptions for a cart? Now probably not everyone knows what 229 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 2: a card is the arc of the covenant, well, and 230 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 2: then you got might get some details right. So, concerning 231 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 2: the Tessaranka terras, there are two main sources that are 232 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 2: typically cited. One is a second century CE Greek source, 233 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: the writings of Athenaeus of Necratis. This is more than 234 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 2: two hundred years after the reign of Ptolemy. The fourth. 235 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 2: Chaffin cites this one in his work, and among the 236 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 2: details included are the following two hundred and eighty cubits 237 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 2: in length, which, to understand this would be like four 238 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 2: hundred and twenty feet or one hundred and thirty meters 239 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 2: a breadth of thirty eight cubits or fifty seven feet 240 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,719 Speaker 2: seventeen meters. I'm not sure if this is per catamaran 241 00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 2: hole seven naval rams. As we discussed proportions, breathtaking decorations. 242 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 2: This is all subjective. And then it's said to have 243 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: required four thousand oarsmen and four hundred sailors and officers. 244 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 2: That alone is is incredible, if not unbelievable. And if 245 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 2: it's said to carry two eight hundred and fifty. 246 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 3: Marines, okay, and the marines would refer to like armed 247 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 3: soldiers who were not involved in the piloting or powering 248 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 3: of the vessel, so they could you know, if you 249 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 3: made contact with another ship at sea or made a landing, 250 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 3: they could disembark or board another vessel to attack. 251 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 2: Yeh, pretty much now in terms of whether they were 252 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 2: pulling the oars or not, as we'll get into maybe so. 253 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: But then you look at these stats, it's like, okay, 254 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 2: four thousand oarsmen. Even if every single marine was double 255 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 2: doing double duty and also pulling the oars, you still 256 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 2: would and also throwing the four hundred sailors and officers, 257 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 2: You're still short by a lot. You still need hundreds 258 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 2: and hundreds of additional oarsmen to power this thing. 259 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 3: So do experts have an opinion of like whether this 260 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 3: could be possible, whether this possibly existed as described, or 261 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 3: what's going on here? 262 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 2: I mean it basically the big discussion comes down to 263 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 2: whether it was for show or operational, you know, like 264 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 2: because another detail that is mentioned in this text is 265 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 2: that it required this big specialized launching system in docks. 266 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 2: So it was like so huge that it required something 267 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 2: new to be built in order to even you know, 268 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 2: go up to it and use it to any limited 269 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 2: degree in the water. But even still ancient authors were 270 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: still skeptical about it as well, like for instance, another 271 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 2: the other major description is a lot shorter, and it 272 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 2: comes from Plutarch. He lived forty six through one nineteen CE, 273 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 2: and he repeats some of the exact same stats, but 274 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 2: also add that the ship was just for show and 275 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 2: could only be moved with great difficulty and danger. So 276 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 2: he comments that it was not at all a practical warship, 277 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 2: but a spectacle, certainly in keeping with the reputation of 278 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 2: Ptolemy the Fourth that has passed down through the centuries. Okay, now, 279 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 2: I guess you could get into a more nuanced discussion 280 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 2: about to what extent the spectacle is as useful or 281 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 2: more useful than a functional vessel. I mean, I guess 282 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 2: that's that's on the table. And then we have to 283 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: also take into account the reputation of ancient rulers as 284 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 2: becomes kind of submitted in the in the historical record. 285 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 2: So you know, there's a there's a lot of back 286 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 2: and forth to have there, But it sounds like there's 287 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 2: a strong case to be made that this was not 288 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: very a very functional warship, that it was just about 289 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: showing off your military mind. But I think it's an 290 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 2: interesting place to set out on our journey here. You know, 291 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 2: looking at the Tessaranka tear is something that exists as 292 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 2: the most outrageous and possibly grotesquely unrealistic example of an 293 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 2: evolution of design in the ancient world. And I think 294 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 2: this is especially interesting in light of how absolutely on 295 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: point the engineering of the try Rem is considered to 296 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 2: have been. I'm going to share a quote from Chaffin 297 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 2: on this that I referenced earlier. To be clear, this 298 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 2: is he's not talking about the Tessaranga teris here. He's 299 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 2: talking about the more common and functional tri rem or 300 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 2: driven vessel. He writes it was a warship design at 301 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 2: the very limits of available technology, incapable of further development, 302 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 2: expensive to maintain, costly and trained manpower, and in the 303 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 2: long run too costly for the resources of the city state. 304 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:46,719 Speaker 2: So I think it seems reasonable to think of these 305 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 2: almost as like jet fighters in the modern area, you know, 306 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: in terms of their upkeep and the technology involved, and 307 00:17:53,160 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 2: just how expensive they are to maintain and use. So 308 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 2: we're going to come back around to these, We're going 309 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 2: to come back around to the Tasaronkataris, We're going to 310 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 2: come back around to the Trireme, and they sort of 311 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 2: pinnacle of this technology as it develops in the ancient world. 312 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 2: But before we get into that, we need to talk 313 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 2: more basically about oars and paddles and other related technologies 314 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 2: that are the basis for all of this. So I 315 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 2: guess to kick off here just a discussion of some 316 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 2: of the basic terminology that is used here. I was 317 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 2: looking at the chapter in the seventy Great Inventions of 318 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 2: the Ancient World by Brian M. Fagan, and the chapter 319 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 2: that deals one of the chapters that deals with boats 320 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 2: has Sean mcgrail on there as the co author who 321 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 2: wrote the book Boats of the world. It covers the 322 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 2: basics of paddles, polls, and ores. So polling involves the 323 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 2: use of a long pole or setting pole, sometimes forked 324 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 2: at the end, to push a small craft along by 325 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 2: pushing it against the bottom of a body of water. 326 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 2: And of note, this is a technology that may leave 327 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 2: no trace on the vessel itself, like it's you know, 328 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 2: you can imagine it. You've probably seen some version of this, 329 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 2: you know, in the world around you, because it is 330 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 2: still used to this day. You know, it's just somebody 331 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 2: poling along. 332 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 3: Because they're especially useful in very shallow bodies of water 333 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 3: and shallow channels. You might often see them paired with 334 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 3: a kind of boat called a punt, which is a 335 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 3: more square shaped, flat bottomed boat that goes less deeply 336 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 3: into the water. So yeah, you'll see people out on 337 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 3: you know, shallow reams and streams and rivers, punting out 338 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 3: on a kind of flat bottom boat, pushing along the 339 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 3: bottom of the pole. 340 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you see, you see these out in the 341 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 2: world for sure. And then of course there are paddles. 342 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 2: Use of a paddle generally doesn't leave any evidence on 343 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 2: craft itself either, And then you have ores. Ores require 344 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 2: a pivot and possibly other specialized fittings, something that often 345 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 2: will leave evidence on a vessel, though you know, should 346 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 2: enough of that vessel survive and I guess, depending on 347 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 2: the materials used, you could also have like some of 348 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 2: these fittings alone survive. 349 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, so yes, to pick up on that. This is 350 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 3: a distinction that I did not fully have in my 351 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 3: mind before researching for this episode. But there is a 352 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 3: difference between a paddle and an ore. I would have 353 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 3: previously used these words interchangeably. But a paddle is a 354 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 3: bladed beam that is held freely in the hands. And 355 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 3: you might have a blade just on one end you 356 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 3: paddle on one side of the boat, or you might 357 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 3: have a double sided paddle with two different blades, and 358 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 3: you can alternate which side, like you might use in 359 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 3: a kayak or something. So the paddle is held freely 360 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 3: in the hands, while an ore is mounted to the 361 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 3: boat in some way through a lock or a pin, 362 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 3: sometimes called an ore lock, though that is a false 363 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 3: cognate with the name or lock, as in count or lock. 364 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 3: It is skilled differently thoar locked. Okay, And as with 365 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 3: the different names of these devices, the verb is different 366 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 3: as well, so Pushing through the water with a paddle 367 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 3: is called paddling. Pushing through the water with an ore 368 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 3: is called rowing. That's what rowing is. Now. If you 369 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 3: have no experience with canoes or row boats yourself, you 370 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 3: might not think of this. But there's a difference in 371 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 3: the orientation of the operator with these two different ways 372 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 3: of pushing through the water with bladed sticks. A person 373 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 3: operating a free hand paddle is usually facing the same 374 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 3: direction they're traveling, while a person rowing with a locked 375 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 3: or is usually facing away from their direction of travel. 376 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 3: So a canoe you're looking ahead, a row boat you're 377 00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 3: looking behind. 378 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting that I've done both of these before, 379 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 2: only a little bit of rowboat usage, mostly like canoe 380 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 2: stuff packing. But my mind instantly goes to how these 381 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 2: translate differently in cinematic usage. You know, like if you 382 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 2: have someone in a row boat and you want their face, 383 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 2: you want their emotions, their facial expression in the picture, 384 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 2: then you are focusing, you're looking at the rear of 385 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 2: the vessel and you're seeing them move away from the camera, 386 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 2: Whereas if you're going you want the same effect more 387 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 2: or less with someone in a canoe, where you're going 388 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 2: to have to have them coming towards the camera. So 389 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 2: I don't know, you could probably get into a into 390 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 2: a into a big, you know, cinematic discussion about how 391 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 2: the different technologies transfer differently to the screen and what 392 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: they say about the characters and their journeys. 393 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting, you know. For some reason, I tend 394 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 3: to think of when you have a shot of somebody 395 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 3: powering a rowboat with oars with in oarlocks, so they're 396 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 3: facing towards the stern of the boat. They're usually talking 397 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 3: to somebody, aren't they Usually there's somebody sitting facing forward 398 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 3: opposite them, sitting behind them, talking to them, and it seems. 399 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 2: Like that, yeah, or they're like a lonely individual like 400 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 2: rowing away from the shore where our point of view is, 401 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 2: and it seems to like, you know, drive home a 402 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 2: sort of like sort of a negative connotation, like they 403 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 2: are leaving us, or they're going off into loneliness or something. 404 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 2: Whereas again, if someone's in the canoe, they're often moving 405 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 2: towards us. So I don't know, I guess there are 406 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 2: ways of sorting that out in our hands. 407 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 3: Rowing and paddling is like more interesting the more I 408 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 3: think about it. It reveals more kind of unappreciated physical 409 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 3: forces in play that I don't know are just invisible 410 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 3: to you while you're doing it. But one of the 411 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 3: other things I was thinking about that makes rowing a 412 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 3: powerful way of moving an object is the idea that 413 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 3: there is great resistance to a paddle blade moving through 414 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 3: water than there is to a paddle blade moving through air. Right, 415 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 3: so you have the ability at the surface of the 416 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 3: water to dip the ore in for a power stroke, 417 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,479 Speaker 3: and there's greater resistance there, which allows you to have 418 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 3: more force pushing the boat forward, and then you can 419 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 3: lift the ore up out of the water to move 420 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 3: it back into place for another power stroke. But while 421 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 3: it's moving through the air to go back for the 422 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 3: next stroke, the return stroke is not really offsetting your 423 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 3: movement very much, because the ore moves very easily through 424 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 3: the air, and in some cases you can even see 425 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 3: like practiced rowers tilting the blade so that it's like 426 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 3: sharp edge going through the air instead of flat edge 427 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 3: going through the air. I guess, to get even less 428 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 3: air resistance while they're moving it back. 429 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 2: This makes me think of various illustrations of like old 430 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 2: illustrations of possible submarines, only you would see ores on them, now, 431 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: I guess, without getting into ancient submarine designs, I guess 432 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 2: sometimes these were depicted as ways that a submarine would 433 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 2: move along as a traditional boat, and not how they 434 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 2: would operate beneath the waters. But if you were to 435 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 2: I guess you could operate ores beneath the waters, probably 436 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 2: having to turn the blade so that it could move 437 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 2: more easily back up to a starting position, but not 438 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 2: as easily as you'd be able to do this by 439 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 2: having the blade of the ore dip in and out 440 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 2: of the water. 441 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 3: That's right. Yeah, So I think you could still move 442 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 3: by a rowing motion under the water, And in fact, 443 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 3: you can think of the way some like a fish's 444 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 3: pectoral fins can kind of you know, move it around 445 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 3: a little bit with with a sort of rowing like 446 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,959 Speaker 3: motion in the water. But yeah, I think by all 447 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 3: accounts of oars would be much less efficient if you 448 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 3: were if you were only able to move them under 449 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 3: the water, you could probably still get some movement out 450 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 3: of them, like you said by yeah, like by orienting 451 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 3: the blades differently or going flat or going flat when 452 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 3: it's time to push and then for the return stroke 453 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 3: laying them, laying them sharp side forward. Maybe also by 454 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 3: this is a good question. I'm not sure if this 455 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 3: would work. Maybe also by altering the speed of movement 456 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 3: through the water, like with a fast power stroke and 457 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 3: then a very slow return stroke. I'm not sure. 458 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 2: It sounds reasonable to me, but I don't. 459 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 3: Know for sure. I haven't tested it out. But yeah, 460 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 3: so it's like by existing, by floating on top of 461 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 3: the water, existing at the interface between the greater resistance 462 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 3: of the water and the lower resistance of the air, 463 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 3: you can get a greater advantage from the rowing movement 464 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 3: by having this resistance on the power stroke and then 465 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 3: relatively easier environment for the return stroke. 466 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah, so it's fascinating to break down the basic 467 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 2: physics behind these different methods, these different machines. But in 468 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 2: terms of when did they develop, well, this is one 469 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 2: of those questions. It's ultimately unanswerable, and we have to 470 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 2: throw in all the general caveats about wooden artifacts and 471 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 2: how frequently are lost. At the time of the publication 472 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 2: of Fagan's book, they cited the earliest known paddles dating 473 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 2: to seventy five hundred BCE in Germany and Britain. They 474 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 2: Cite thirty two one hundred BCE is the oldest evidence 475 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 2: of polling from Mesopotamia and date rowing to third millennium 476 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 2: BCE in Egypt. Also, paddle use was apparently first illustrated 477 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 2: in the fourth millennium BCE in Egypt. 478 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, we don't know for sure when the earliest paddle 479 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 3: driven boats were used, but we have some interesting pieces 480 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 3: of evidence from apparently fairly early use at least. So 481 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 3: One source I was looking at was a paper published 482 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 3: in a journal called Past Mobilities by Mark Dunkley called 483 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 3: Traveling by Water A Chronology of Prehistoric Boat Archaeology slash 484 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 3: Mobility in England. This was published in twenty sixteen, and 485 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 3: the author here notes something interesting about the archaeological record 486 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 3: in Northern Europe at least, which is that the evidence 487 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 3: of the use of boats and water transport goes back 488 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 3: to very generally between the tenth and fifth millennium before present, 489 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 3: which falls within the Mesolithic or Middle Stone Age, but 490 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 3: that the earliest evidence for water transport is generally not 491 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 3: the physical remains of boats. Rather it is first of 492 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 3: all circumstantial evidence and Dunky sites, as one example here, 493 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 3: evidence of human settlement on islands such as the Inner 494 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 3: Hebrides and Ireland, and in those cases this was by 495 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 3: the ninth millennium before present, during times when we can 496 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 3: be fairly confident that they were not connected to the 497 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 3: rest of Eurasia by land bridges or expanses that were 498 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 3: traversible in any method other than by boat. So this 499 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 3: implies there must have been some way for Stone Age 500 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 3: settlers to cross these large expanses of water. Thus they 501 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 3: likely had some form of watercraft. Another piece of evidence 502 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 3: early evidence that Dunkley mentions for water transport in northern 503 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 3: Europe is paddles dated from the tenth to fifth millennium 504 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 3: before present, especially found in areas on the edge of 505 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 3: the Baltic Sea. And one example that I came up 506 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 3: when I was looking for I was looking for specific 507 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 3: examples of earliest known paddles in the archaeological record, and 508 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 3: one is the so called Duvincy paddle, which was discovered 509 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 3: in the nineteen twenties. I've seen two different dates on 510 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 3: this nineteen twenty six in nineteen twenty four, I'm not 511 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 3: sure which is right, but discovered in the nineteen twenties 512 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 3: at an archaeological site associated with Middlestone Age hunter gatherers 513 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 3: in northern Germany in a place now called du Vinci. 514 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 3: And this paddle is made of pine wood and based 515 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 3: on two different samples, it has been dated to between 516 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 3: eight and nine thousand years ago. Interesting note is it's 517 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 3: not huge. It seems that it was about fifty two 518 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 3: cinema in length, or you know, it's just over twenty 519 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 3: inches long. So that's kind of interesting to think about. 520 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 3: Usually the paddles I think of today are longer, but 521 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 3: you can still paddle with a shorter paddle. 522 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, And looking at the photograph here of the artifact, 523 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 2: I mean it very much looks like paddle. You don't 524 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 2: have to read into it too much. I mean it 525 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: instantly reads as a paddle to just casual observation. 526 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. So I was trying to understand the human context 527 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,719 Speaker 3: in which this paddle would have been used. I was 528 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 3: reading about the apparent Mesolithic settlement in this area in 529 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 3: a source called spade Paddling on a Mesolithic Lake, Remarks 530 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 3: on pre boreal and boreal sites from du Vinsi, Northern 531 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 3: Germany by Klaus Bochelmann, published in twenty twelve in some 532 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 3: kind of collection. It's called a mindset on flint studies 533 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 3: in honor of Dick Stapert Part three the Mesolithic and Neolithic, 534 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 3: and so the area of Lake Douvency, interestingly was likely 535 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 3: exploited at this time as a temporary encampment for the 536 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 3: harvesting of hazel nuts. You a fan of hazel nuts, Rob. 537 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 2: I don't know. My mind instly goes to like hazel 538 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 2: nut coffee, and I say no, thank you, And no, 539 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess that what hazel nuts, and you 540 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 2: think of of various like hazel nut based chocolate spread. 541 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 2: So no, I'm I guess I'm very much in favor 542 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 2: of them in other contexts. 543 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 3: I guess they didn't have chocolate yet. But you're like 544 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 3: halfway to stone Age in nutella? Wait, is there even 545 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 3: chocolate in nutella? It's like brown and sweet. 546 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 2: There is chocolate and nutella. Yeah, okay, but nutella. Yeah. 547 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 2: It's interesting because I think I've looked into this before 548 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 2: and it's like conceivable that you had some form of 549 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 2: ancient nut butter based on hazel nuts, but you could 550 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 2: not have possibly had nutella yet because you didn't have 551 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 2: access to chocolate from of course South America. 552 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 3: Right, But about these people who were harvesting hazel nut. 553 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 3: Bokelman writes, quote short term harvesting camps, sometimes under pine 554 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 3: trees and marked not by huts but by birch bark mats, 555 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,719 Speaker 3: were set up on muddy ground near open water and 556 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 3: on islets of the lake. These were optimal locations for 557 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 3: spade paddling harvesting trips to hazel groves in the vicinity 558 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 3: of the lake. Hazelnuts were roasted in hot sand in 559 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 3: open fireplaces, and the edible kernels were either consumed on 560 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 3: the spot or were stored for future use. Doesn't that 561 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 3: just sound cozy? I don't know, it sounds nice. So 562 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 3: Bokeelman says that the evidence indicates that small family based 563 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 3: groups probably occupied the area for several days at a 564 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 3: time until the area became more thickly forested. I guess 565 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 3: there's some changing climate and flora around there, and as 566 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 3: the forest came in, this reduced the productivity of the 567 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 3: hazel groves and thus made Lake d Vinci less attractive 568 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 3: as a gathering location for humans because there were fewer 569 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 3: hazel nuts to harvest. 570 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 2: Fewer nuts, less reason to go there. 571 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 3: Right, But so this paddle was found, it seemed to 572 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 3: have been become buried in sediments sometime you know, eight 573 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 3: to nine thousand years ago and was preserved until it 574 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 3: was found in the nineteen twenties. And so somebody was 575 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 3: paddling obviously, somebody was paddling some kind of watercraft, some 576 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 3: very early watercraft through the water, possibly to harvest hazel 577 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 3: nuts in this area at the time. And now interestingly, 578 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 3: according to Dunkley, the author I mentioned earlier, these types 579 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 3: of paddles appear in the archaeological record before the earliest 580 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 3: evidence of log boats, leading to the speculation by an 581 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 3: author named Lanting in nineteen ninety seven that the earliest 582 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 3: watercraft were not log boats but were skin boats or 583 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 3: bark boats. So some kind of design that you know, 584 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 3: you might you would build around a frame and make 585 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 3: roughly waterproof, but would be less likely to be preserved intact. 586 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 3: And there are some sort of candidate pieces people have found, 587 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 3: you know, like a piece of work to Antler, where 588 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 3: somebody's looked at this and said, ah, this might have 589 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 3: formed part of the skeleton of a skin boat or 590 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,359 Speaker 3: a bark boat or something, but it's hard to be sure. 591 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 2: I mean, I wonder if part of that The idea 592 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 2: here is that like a skin boat would perhaps be 593 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 2: easier to carry around. You could if you're having to 594 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,800 Speaker 2: depend on a lifestyle then involves more of a transient 595 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 2: existence and moving from point A to point B with 596 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 2: the seasons and so forth. Then the skin boat you 597 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,760 Speaker 2: can carry with you, as opposed to a dugout canoe, 598 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,240 Speaker 2: which might be harder in some context to carry around. 599 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 3: Yeah. I wouldn't know for sure, but that makes sense 600 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 3: to me. 601 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 2: Now. Much of what we'll be discussing here concerns the 602 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 2: seagoing vessels of the ancient Mediterranean or the wine dark Sea, 603 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 2: if you will, to invoke a common translation from Homer's 604 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 2: Iliad in the Odyssey, But what was it about these 605 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 2: waters and what were some of the defining elements in 606 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 2: the development of ancient marine navigation here? Well, one of 607 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 2: my chief sources on this is The Ancient Mariners by 608 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 2: Lionel Cason, published nineteen ninety one. He was to cease now, 609 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 2: he was, but he was one of the leading scholars 610 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 2: on ancient ships and marine operations. And as we progress, 611 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 2: we'll also try to incorporate added insight garnered via later 612 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 2: twentieth and twenty first century maritime archaeology. But Casein writes 613 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 2: that while historians have differed over the years on the subject, 614 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:51,320 Speaker 2: evidence suggests that Mediterranean sailors kept mostly to this inland 615 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 2: sea the Mediterranean, and the key innovation that enabled them 616 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 2: to make use of the sea here was wind. So 617 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 2: prior to this they depended on poles for shallow navigation 618 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 2: and various forms of paddling and rowing if they needed 619 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,760 Speaker 2: to go farther out. But wind power, case In Wrights, 620 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,959 Speaker 2: was a real game changer. So I want to read 621 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 2: a quote here. This is from again his book The 622 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 2: Ancient Mariners nineteen ninety one. For the first time they 623 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 2: harnessed a force other than their own muscles, their servants, 624 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,320 Speaker 2: or their wives. It was a discovery whose effect reached 625 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 2: down the ages. From this moment on, the easiest and 626 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 2: cheapest way of transporting bulky loads over distances of appreciable 627 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 2: length was by water. 628 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 3: And remain so today, by the way. 629 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so we get into this discussion though, and 630 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 2: we'll deal more with this in the next episode. But 631 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 2: so you're gonna end up with a situation where you 632 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 2: have wind power your disposal, which is very clearly awesome 633 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 2: and is a real game changer. But you also have 634 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 2: these technologies of the ore and the paddle. But on 635 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 2: top of this in the Mediterranean zone in particular, coming 636 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 2: back to Fagan and one of his other contributing riders, 637 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 2: Boris Rankoff, who will come back to points out that 638 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 2: the galley, the sea going vessel powered by oars in 639 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,800 Speaker 2: the ancient world, this was, for all intents and purposes, 640 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 2: a Mediterranean phenomenon. Elsewhere at this time, ores were more 641 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 2: for powering small vessels on rivers and lakes, and you 642 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 2: often were able to lean more into the sail the 643 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 2: rest of the time. But they point out that a 644 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 2: lot of the reason that we see this emphasis on 645 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 2: ores in the ancient Mediterranean it comes down to the 646 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 2: unreliability of the wind there. Unreliability by the way, as 647 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 2: it applies to high stakes, often conflict oriented sailing. None 648 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 2: of this is directly applicable to modern discussions of wind energy. 649 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 3: Ah, But what you're saying there makes sense as to 650 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 3: why you would often think of a trade ship as 651 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 3: being one that solely relied on wind power versus a 652 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,240 Speaker 3: warship being more likely to have lots of rowers and ores. 653 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 2: Right, Because it comes down to a situation where you're 654 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 2: going to depend on the sales as much as you can. 655 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 2: But when it comes down to it, when you need 656 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 2: to close the distance between yourself and an enemy or 657 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,839 Speaker 2: try to greatly increase that distance, you might not have 658 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 2: the wind on your side. You cannot necessarily count on it. 659 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 2: But what you can count on are the mechanisms of 660 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 2: the ores and the muscle power of the people to 661 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 2: pull those ores. So yeah, if you need that power 662 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 2: and you can't count on the wind or the wind 663 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 2: is not cooperating, well, then you bust out the oars 664 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 2: and you use or power to meet your objective. Nice 665 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 2: So in the next episode, we'll come back in and 666 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 2: we'll talk at a greater length about this, and then 667 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 2: we'll get into some examples of ancient sea battles that 668 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 2: we know based on the written record and some illustrations, 669 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 2: and then we'll get into the technology of these or 670 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 2: powered vessels that are so famous among the Greeks, and 671 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 2: then later the Romans. 672 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 3: I can't wait, all. 673 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 2: Right, so ramming speed in the next episode, but for 674 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 2: now we're gonna go ahead and close it out. We'll 675 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 2: remind you that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily 676 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 2: a science and culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays 677 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 2: and Thursdays. On Wednesdays, we do a short form episode. 678 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 2: We've been running a lot of monster facts recently, but 679 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,320 Speaker 2: in the weeks ahead, I'll come back with more Animalia stependium, 680 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,839 Speaker 2: some more artifacts as we move forward. And then on 681 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 2: Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just talk 682 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 2: about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. 683 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 684 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:48,319 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 685 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,800 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 686 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,959 Speaker 3: to topic for the future, or just to say hello, 687 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,760 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 688 00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. 689 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 690 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 691 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.